I'd pay for a T5-U version of the Phalanx and/or Dragaus Gorn science ships, and no doubt there are folks who would love to see a legit Klingon science vessel.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Yay at last Klingons that will look like Klingons! BUT while you are at it please revamp the Klingon Battle Cruisers into REAL battle crusiers with more TACTICAL CONSOLES and stop making them Swiss Army knives like Fed ships! Klingon Battle Cruisers are not exploration ships THEY ARE WAR SHIPS! Seriously a "Battle Cruiser" with only 3 Tac consoles? Ah well wishful thinking. I understand the use of one template for multiple faction ships but it feels like KDF ships are just Fed ships in a Klingon costume for the most part.
I've done things on Star Trek ranging from the recent Resistance Suits, to pushing for and doing the bulk of the Klingon revamp, to main cast members from the show like Worf, Tuvok, and Harry Kim, to Snowman Borg, to kitty cats.
I think the universe of Star Trek is diverse enough to not only accommodate such a wide range of "taste", but to encourage it. I mean, look at the show - favorite example: potato heads, the Hierachy (which I also made for STO): http://subspacecomms.com/sites/default/files/070609-trivia/6.jpg
And that's one of the great things about Star Trek and Star Trek Online. Hell, you can even turn off the glows on the suit if you don't like them. Or...you can simply wear any of the other dozens of uniforms and armors instead.
In the end, we'll keep making more costumes and though we won't ever make something that everyone digs, everyone will dig something.
Thank you for all that, it's nice to see a dev dedicated to the game and is willing to push to make it better. While I didn't like the DR missions due to being too Federation, I did like seeing the Voyager cast (my favourite Trek series) so thank you for that.
I am also look forward to this more and more that I think of it. Would be nice to deck my KDF in some quality tailor gear. I always prefered buying costumes over ships and I use them a lot more. I usally stick with the one ship when I find a good one, yet I constanly swap uniforms on my characters.
Any chance of some new KDF uniforms in the near future in the c-store perhaps? Like Lursa and B'etor's? Gowron's coat? ENT Klingon atire? and so on, maybe some Cryptic designed costumes?
Oh and while you're at it, or in a possible future tailor update could the different categories (Uniform, Off-Duty, Honour Guard, Formal Wear etc) be all merged into one? It would give everyone more options and variety for our characters and their BOFF's.
Also maybe as a Lvl50 unlock or something allow us to use Orion, Gorn and/or Naucassian gear on other races? That would open up more customisation options for the KDF. Obviously some pieces might not be appropriate but boot's, pads, gauntlets etc would be a welcome addition.
Thanks.
Support the Game by Supporting the KDF, equality and uniqueness for all factions!
Question from the floor!
Will this KDF art-revamp stop at character art or is there the possibility that we'll be seeing revamps to First City/Shipyard, Ganalda Station (maybe even the addition of another KDF space station somewhere) and so forth?
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I'm loving all of this the new Klingon model is going to look HOSS.
So we don't know when it's gonna be implemented, but any clue as to how long the implementation period will be? Are we talking about phased in over six months or a year?
Question from the floor!
Will this KDF art-revamp stop at character art or is there the possibility that we'll be seeing revamps to First City/Shipyard, Ganalda Station (maybe even the addition of another KDF space station somewhere) and so forth?
That's a good question.
But it's Taco's domain. He's said that he has a LOT he wants to do, so you never know where he'll pop up next. He's also wanted to redo DS9.
Anyone know if he took a vacation after rebuilding space like a Q?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
There are a lot of great suggestions is this thread about making the Playable Borg a much better species, one of which includes opening it up as an unlock for all species, rather than just the main faction race. The Borg as a whole could use a lot of love, given how expensive they are to play as. I honestly think that a lot of the LTS people wouldn't mind if you guys opened up the Cooperative for all players, as long as it meant more additions for Borg customization.
As a personal gripe for me, that I've been campaigning for since beta, I've noticed that the infected complexion has been changed to 'Infected 1'. When will we finally be getting the infected skin as a full body visual? Will there be more than one version we can choose from?
I don't mean to derail this thread, but this would effect Liberated Klingon characters as well.
Seeing this thread send great ripples of Joy through my body as now my kdf eng's outfit will look good. One request: could we get the captains overcoat from TNG? Dahar Master outfit would be appreciated as well, thank you!
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
How about some new uniform options? Like say the Star Trek VI uniforms?
"After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true. Except for a T5 Connie. That would be f*%#ing awesome." - Mr. Spock
Seeing this thread send great ripples of Joy through my body as now my kdf eng's outfit will look good. One request: could we get the captains overcoat from TNG? Dahar Master outfit would be appreciated as well, thank you!
The long coat has been an oversight for FAR too long.
How about some new uniform options? Like say the Star Trek VI uniforms?
The way I see it Chancellor Gorkon, Azetbur, and General Chang's clothes were all Klingon Dress uniforms. Note that Worf wore Gorkons outfit at the wedding. And Jadzia's dress.
Heck give me Lursa and B'Etor's dresses please. :cool:
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The one thing I liked about the Bortasque boot options was that they topped out well below the knee. Seems all boot options now HAVE to be above the knee. The added "knee pads" on the bortasque boots doesn't work imo, ruins the almost cowboy boot look they had.
They were the only decent looking boot option for female Orions too, everything else doesn't really suit their dress style imo. Too spikey or oddly shaped.
Dagger will be a great addition.
Full colour palette instead of some shade of brown will be awesome too.
Hey crypticjoejing, great thread and since you seem to actually be monitoring it can I point out a few things that I think would be a good addition to your revamp?
1. Playable Gorn use the standard martial arts animations, can this please be revamped so that the playable Gorn use the claw swips like the NPC Gorn?
2. The playable Gorn walking and running animations. Again can these be revamped to the NPC versions? Maybe allow playable Gorn to to select from the beasty looking pose some of the NPC Gorn have?
3. Liberated Borg Klingons need to be able to change the color of the glowy bits on certain implants from the base red. Most notably some of the older head pieces like the laser eye. Oh and while I am on the topic can we have the ability to equip our liberated borg with more borg tech like the arms. You could even set it so that if you have a borg gun arm attached your weapons do not appear in combat and you fire from your arm. This one is obviously a bigger job, but I think it would be worth it.
4. Klingon style dresses, like the ones Lursa and B'Etor wore and lets not forget the red klingon wedding dress Jadzia wore.
I am sure I am missing some things....if I remember I'll post.
Couple of questions; would it be possible to get the light head ridges (like Miral Paris') for males? I guess it's probably out of the purview of this update but will we see the sleeveless and open chest KDF uniforms worn by Klaa and Vixis?
The armored vest appears to be the standard Kdf armor without the undershirt. That Sleevless armor, wrist gauntlets, and the head piece that Vixis is wearing from the pics would be great if you can find time.
Some additional hair options are always appreciated.
TY again for taking time to work on this.
PS maybe female gorns could have the old style heads or maybe this is what female gorn look like, The bust slider could just increase the overall height body mass abouve normal limits. :P
The long coat has been an oversight for FAR too long.
The way I see it Chancellor Gorkon, Azetbur, and General Chang's clothes were all Klingon Dress uniforms. Note that Worf wore Gorkons outfit at the wedding. And Jadzia's dress.
Heck give me Lursa and B'Etor's dresses please. :cool:
Well, there's certainly plenty possibilities to add. It'd be great if some were added (Lursa and B'Etor ones, preferrably).
The one thing I liked about the Bortasque boot options was that they topped out well below the knee. Seems all boot options now HAVE to be above the knee. The added "knee pads" on the bortasque boots doesn't work imo, ruins the almost cowboy boot look they had.
They were the only decent looking boot option for female Orions too, everything else doesn't really suit their dress style imo. Too spikey or oddly shaped.
Dagger will be a great addition.
Full colour palette instead of some shade of brown will be awesome too.
A pretty good point. Please, Joejing, make sure the new boots work for other species than Klingons as well. Say on an Orion female with Wintercoat and leather pants. (Not everyone has slave-Leia style Orions with sandals.)
More variety when it comes to the height of boots can end up being very useful.
I couldn't ask for all at once. :P (Like, say, new playable Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan, Ferasan, Lethean ships...)
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I literally cannot stop grinning. I'm a KDF nut (I know we're rare on STO)! The new costume pieces look really amazing.
Thank You!!! Thank You!! Thank You!!
I have some more suggestions. I know they are out of scope for this project.. but since we have your attention.
- More Female KDF: The KDF has precious few female options. I'm not sure if Gorn are doable. But it would be nice to have option added for the Lethean and Nausicaans..
(concept art for female Nausicaan: http://i.imgur.com/tP0XR67.jpg)
- More melee weapon options: The Dk Tahg and the Mek'leth are repeated requested as actual melee weapon skins. Make it so.. even if it has to be in the form of C-store buys.
- More Colors: IMO the color options KDF side are a bit dull. Can we get a wider range of costume color options as the Feds have?
- TOS Klingon Skins: Do we think we could ever get the option to have some TOS Klingon skins for our playable Klingons? Even if it's an unlock or purchase of some kind? I think players will like this.. as the female TOS Klingons are considered very sexy.. (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/factfiles/klingon-23rd.jpg) and maybe add some more variety than just having all those darned Orion women everywhere.
- More Female KDF: The KDF has precious few female options. I'm not sure if Gorn are doable. But it would be nice to have option added for the Lethean and Nausicaans..
(concept art for female Nausicaan: http://i.imgur.com/tP0XR67.jpg)
Nausicaan and lethean females are one thing (and a good thing, Nausicaans in particular could use some cultural flushing out)...but as a science person I have to point out that there isn't much you can do to vary the gorn model to display gender apart from changing the size, scale, and maybe coloration. And all those options are available already.
Also, **** yes to more colors! Even among dingey war bands there's a little more going besides brown, brown, black, and grey. Green (subdued, but still green) would be a huge addition.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
there isn't much you can do to vary the gorn model to display gender apart from changing the size, scale, and maybe coloration.
Why not make Female Gorn different via abilities? Instead of poisoned bites, how about a melee attack with poisoned claws? (See THAT would be a good use of that NPC animation for Gorn to be brought to the player side).
Even though a toning down of masculine spikes and alligator-back may fit better with a feminine look, too. Maybe stripes or smoother ridges maybe on the brow?
And, of course, the ability to wear different costumes.... I know the male Gorn looks very nice in the Tux....formal clothing for women has much to be desired.
Main point though: I don't know if a bikini would fit....one would have to try different ones to see what would look right.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Even though a toning down of masculine spikes and alligator-back may fit better with a feminine look, too. Maybe stripes or smoother ridges maybe on the brow?
That one makes sense to me - male Gorn seem to be based on a mixture of iguana and alligator, so why not have female Gorn based on other reptiles like skinks?
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Because very, very few players would be able to take advantage of them. Why not make new abilities (ie. multi-species traits) that you could decide to put on your gorn "female" because it suits their individual personality? Eg. beserker?
Gender isn't the end all of psychological and biological diversification (and it very, very rarely includes something like poison claws).
Even though a toning down of masculine spikes and alligator-back may fit better with a feminine look, too. Maybe stripes or smoother ridges maybe on the brow?.
Assuming of course that the females are smaller/less robust/more "feminine". The problem with the gorn is that players tend to project their idea of "female" onto another biological class. It doesn't really work. Nausicaans and Letheans, sure they're somewhat mammal-like, but visibly female gorn (according to human norms) does not compute.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Assuming of course that the females are smaller/less robust/more "feminine". The problem with the gorn is that players tend to project their idea of "female" onto another biological class. It doesn't really work. Nausicaans and Letheans, sure they're somewhat mammal-like, but visibly female gorn (according to human norms) does not compute.
Female Gorn have typically been depicted (in Beta canon) as being nigh indistinguishable from the males, but larger and bulkier in appearance, akin to some types of actual reptiles.
"[GARBLED ELECTRONIC NOISES]"
- Thot Gar - Commanding Officer of the Braaktak Kaan
Female Gorn have typically been depicted (in Beta canon) as being nigh indistinguishable from the males, but larger and bulkier in appearance, akin to some types of actual reptiles.
So, by that reasoning... one could almost reach a conclusion that the Gorn Ra'wiq and Hodch that we already see in the game could be considered female Gorn as they're larger and bulkier than other Gorn, right?
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Looks good, but that pic showing the rank progression still has a mix of outfits. I'd really like to see the KDF with a unified uniform code. The Romulan Republic has had one from the get go, and Starfleet has one with the Odyssey uniforms. I say make the Bortasqu uniform go across the board for the KDF!
Comments
I am a Storyteller
there was even one in the new frontier book series
Yeah, this!
I'd pay for a T5-U version of the Phalanx and/or Dragaus Gorn science ships, and no doubt there are folks who would love to see a legit Klingon science vessel.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Thank you for all that, it's nice to see a dev dedicated to the game and is willing to push to make it better. While I didn't like the DR missions due to being too Federation, I did like seeing the Voyager cast (my favourite Trek series) so thank you for that.
I am also look forward to this more and more that I think of it. Would be nice to deck my KDF in some quality tailor gear. I always prefered buying costumes over ships and I use them a lot more. I usally stick with the one ship when I find a good one, yet I constanly swap uniforms on my characters.
Any chance of some new KDF uniforms in the near future in the c-store perhaps? Like Lursa and B'etor's? Gowron's coat? ENT Klingon atire? and so on, maybe some Cryptic designed costumes?
Oh and while you're at it, or in a possible future tailor update could the different categories (Uniform, Off-Duty, Honour Guard, Formal Wear etc) be all merged into one? It would give everyone more options and variety for our characters and their BOFF's.
Also maybe as a Lvl50 unlock or something allow us to use Orion, Gorn and/or Naucassian gear on other races? That would open up more customisation options for the KDF. Obviously some pieces might not be appropriate but boot's, pads, gauntlets etc would be a welcome addition.
Thanks.
Will this KDF art-revamp stop at character art or is there the possibility that we'll be seeing revamps to First City/Shipyard, Ganalda Station (maybe even the addition of another KDF space station somewhere) and so forth?
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
So we don't know when it's gonna be implemented, but any clue as to how long the implementation period will be? Are we talking about phased in over six months or a year?
That's a good question.
But it's Taco's domain. He's said that he has a LOT he wants to do, so you never know where he'll pop up next. He's also wanted to redo DS9.
Anyone know if he took a vacation after rebuilding space like a Q?
While this is a great step for the Klingons, I have to ask:
Will the Liberated Borg be getting anything like this?
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1048701&highlight=liberated+borg
There are a lot of great suggestions is this thread about making the Playable Borg a much better species, one of which includes opening it up as an unlock for all species, rather than just the main faction race. The Borg as a whole could use a lot of love, given how expensive they are to play as. I honestly think that a lot of the LTS people wouldn't mind if you guys opened up the Cooperative for all players, as long as it meant more additions for Borg customization.
As a personal gripe for me, that I've been campaigning for since beta, I've noticed that the infected complexion has been changed to 'Infected 1'. When will we finally be getting the infected skin as a full body visual? Will there be more than one version we can choose from?
I don't mean to derail this thread, but this would effect Liberated Klingon characters as well.
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Amen to that. I want my kdf sci to have a reason to leave behind her Sarr Theln. And my rom sci would like this
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
The long coat has been an oversight for FAR too long.
The way I see it Chancellor Gorkon, Azetbur, and General Chang's clothes were all Klingon Dress uniforms. Note that Worf wore Gorkons outfit at the wedding. And Jadzia's dress.
Heck give me Lursa and B'Etor's dresses please. :cool:
They were the only decent looking boot option for female Orions too, everything else doesn't really suit their dress style imo. Too spikey or oddly shaped.
Dagger will be a great addition.
Full colour palette instead of some shade of brown will be awesome too.
1. Playable Gorn use the standard martial arts animations, can this please be revamped so that the playable Gorn use the claw swips like the NPC Gorn?
2. The playable Gorn walking and running animations. Again can these be revamped to the NPC versions? Maybe allow playable Gorn to to select from the beasty looking pose some of the NPC Gorn have?
3. Liberated Borg Klingons need to be able to change the color of the glowy bits on certain implants from the base red. Most notably some of the older head pieces like the laser eye. Oh and while I am on the topic can we have the ability to equip our liberated borg with more borg tech like the arms. You could even set it so that if you have a borg gun arm attached your weapons do not appear in combat and you fire from your arm. This one is obviously a bigger job, but I think it would be worth it.
4. Klingon style dresses, like the ones Lursa and B'Etor wore and lets not forget the red klingon wedding dress Jadzia wore.
I am sure I am missing some things....if I remember I'll post.
The armored vest appears to be the standard Kdf armor without the undershirt. That Sleevless armor, wrist gauntlets, and the head piece that Vixis is wearing from the pics would be great if you can find time.
Some additional hair options are always appreciated.
TY again for taking time to work on this.
PS maybe female gorns could have the old style heads or maybe this is what female gorn look like, The bust slider could just increase the overall height body mass abouve normal limits. :P
More variety when it comes to the height of boots can end up being very useful.
I couldn't ask for all at once. :P (Like, say, new playable Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan, Ferasan, Lethean ships...)
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Thank You!!! Thank You!! Thank You!!
I have some more suggestions. I know they are out of scope for this project.. but since we have your attention.
- More Female KDF: The KDF has precious few female options. I'm not sure if Gorn are doable. But it would be nice to have option added for the Lethean and Nausicaans..
(concept art for female Nausicaan: http://i.imgur.com/tP0XR67.jpg)
- More melee weapon options: The Dk Tahg and the Mek'leth are repeated requested as actual melee weapon skins. Make it so.. even if it has to be in the form of C-store buys.
- More Colors: IMO the color options KDF side are a bit dull. Can we get a wider range of costume color options as the Feds have?
- TOS Klingon Skins: Do we think we could ever get the option to have some TOS Klingon skins for our playable Klingons? Even if it's an unlock or purchase of some kind? I think players will like this.. as the female TOS Klingons are considered very sexy.. (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/factfiles/klingon-23rd.jpg) and maybe add some more variety than just having all those darned Orion women everywhere.
Thanks again... this is just so awesome.
Nausicaan and lethean females are one thing (and a good thing, Nausicaans in particular could use some cultural flushing out)...but as a science person I have to point out that there isn't much you can do to vary the gorn model to display gender apart from changing the size, scale, and maybe coloration. And all those options are available already.
Also, **** yes to more colors! Even among dingey war bands there's a little more going besides brown, brown, black, and grey. Green (subdued, but still green) would be a huge addition.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Why not make Female Gorn different via abilities? Instead of poisoned bites, how about a melee attack with poisoned claws? (See THAT would be a good use of that NPC animation for Gorn to be brought to the player side).
Even though a toning down of masculine spikes and alligator-back may fit better with a feminine look, too. Maybe stripes or smoother ridges maybe on the brow?
And, of course, the ability to wear different costumes.... I know the male Gorn looks very nice in the Tux....formal clothing for women has much to be desired.
Main point though: I don't know if a bikini would fit....one would have to try different ones to see what would look right.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
That one makes sense to me - male Gorn seem to be based on a mixture of iguana and alligator, so why not have female Gorn based on other reptiles like skinks?
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
Because very, very few players would be able to take advantage of them. Why not make new abilities (ie. multi-species traits) that you could decide to put on your gorn "female" because it suits their individual personality? Eg. beserker?
Gender isn't the end all of psychological and biological diversification (and it very, very rarely includes something like poison claws).
Assuming of course that the females are smaller/less robust/more "feminine". The problem with the gorn is that players tend to project their idea of "female" onto another biological class. It doesn't really work. Nausicaans and Letheans, sure they're somewhat mammal-like, but visibly female gorn (according to human norms) does not compute.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Female Gorn have typically been depicted (in Beta canon) as being nigh indistinguishable from the males, but larger and bulkier in appearance, akin to some types of actual reptiles.
- Thot Gar - Commanding Officer of the Braaktak Kaan
So, by that reasoning... one could almost reach a conclusion that the Gorn Ra'wiq and Hodch that we already see in the game could be considered female Gorn as they're larger and bulkier than other Gorn, right?
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I'm happy to be seeing this, be awesome if the KDF got more attention like this