My first MMORPG had quite a few missions, that involved auto fails regarding missions and raids!
You know what?
The vast majority of that games player base, actually learned to do them and, had very little issue with that system not working to get people to work hard to succeed.
This game, lol, not even close.
As the majority here, deem it asking too much of them to actually work hard to succeed.
Too much for them to learn anything on their own or, take advise when it is freely offered.
No, on this game, it's a bunch of lazy butts asking the Dev's, to change the game to suite this huge trend!
i'm a hardcore everquest player been playing for well almost 20 years. Raid instances let you sit in them and work out problems you wipe.. your rez and you go at it again we did it for hours and hours several days a week until one day we solved the puzzle. We certainly were not booted out 5 seconds after we entered the instance after 2 people died or we experienced a complete wipe.
We got locked out after we gave up for the night and had several instances on rotation we were working on but we were able to remain inside the instance to work on things that required in some cases very precise and complicated timing. We didnt get some pop up in our face if we didnt solve the puzzle the first time we tried and tried again until our armour and weapons were useless or we ran out of kits or were just too exhausted to continue.
Now the question that most of us are saying is... HOW do you fix it.
sto is an easy game its built for casuals not hardcore gamers the way the bulk of players attack the content wont change. There is no solution all I know is that no one could PUG ever. Most people all but stopped using the q system which was designed around short bursts of content mean to occupy about 5 or 10 minute blocks. The system became "hurry up and get in line and wait".
If they want to make more challenging content they need to design it properly and not take content that is meant for people with A.D.D. and try to turn it into something else LOL.
i'm a hardcore everquest player been playing for well almost 20 years. Raid instances let you sit in them and work out problems you wipe.. your rez and you go at it again we did it for hours and hours several days a week until one day we solved the puzzle. We certainly were not booted out 5 seconds after we entered the instance after 2 people died or we experienced a complete wipe.
We got locked out after we gave up for the night and had several instances on rotation we were working on but we were able to remain inside the instance to work on things that required in some cases very precise and complicated timing. We didnt get some pop up in our face if we didnt solve the puzzle the first time we tried and tried again until our armour and weapons were useless or we ran out of kits or were just too exhausted to continue.
Which is really no different here... you go into a queue... you fail... you go back out... discuss with your team what went wrong... and you go back in...
In EQ you NEVER, EVER pugged a raid... ever... didn't do it in EQ... nor EQII... nor WoW... or any other of the huge list of MMOs out there that I've played...
You went in with a team... maybe semi-pugged... but you basically went in with the holy trinity of MMOS... and if you didn't have the holy trinity you didn't go into the raid until you had it...
then you died... went back to the respawn (in this case sector space) and then went back at it when you had a better idea of what went wrong... and if someone Leroy Jenkin's it... you kicked them... left... and went back in...
Here there are no raids... only queues... but if you pug them you get what you ask for...
If you pre-made it... and fail... you just leave recommunicate... figure out a new tactic... maybe do some research (like you did in EQ when you PM a buddy who you know did it)... and go back at it...
No difference at all..
But not once in my entire time in EQ when I failed a raid did I go running to mommy and daddy dev and say "this is too hard, I'm entitled to easy".
What I did is learn and grow and get better and ask questions and fail... and fail... and fail... and fail... until I didn't fail any more...
and if it was truly and utterly unbeatable without exploits... then you said something to the dev.... using facts and figures and builds and more facts... and more facts... and more facts... to set your case up... and generally at that point the devs listened to you becaues all the facts and figures were there and jived with what their metrics said...
But "It's too hard give me easy street" wasn't ever even remotely concidered in EQ... because doing that got you labeled by EVERYONE...
But not that MMOs are mainstream... and you have every single entitled kiddie and their parents playing MMOs.. it's become less about achievement and more about "Everyone deserves to win and get a trophey that says "You're number 1" even when you came in last place. Everyone deserves to be on the team and be called a winner. Everyone gets that letterman jacket with the Varsity V on it...
Which is really no different here... you go into a queue... you fail... you go back out... discuss with your team what went wrong... and you go back in...
...
these aren't raids though they are like quick 5 minute little quicky things. Why on earth would you do anything but pug them LOL.
in EQ you had ways to rez and remain in the instance you had healers and druids and rogues and paladins. We remained in them for hours on end until we could continue no more and when we left it was our choice and after that we had our lockout.
It's only 20 for an alt. And then only if you've have an account bank. And then only once you've gone through the 40 on one character. And you get 5 voth implants and 10 processors out of the four reps that even use elite marks. And even without that you can just head to one of the non-STF sources for elite marks. Or you could put together a decent build without relying on the reputation system.
So let's see, 40 + 20 +20 +20 +20 = 120 = 3 *40
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Which is really no different here... you go into a queue... you fail... you go back out... discuss with your team what went wrong... and you go back in...
I can't speak for Evercrack but in Censoredraft TRIBBLE up a boss mechanic just once did not put the raid on a lockout for half an hour.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I can't speak for Evercrack but in Censoredraft TRIBBLE up a boss mechanic just once did not put the raid on a lockout for half an hour.
True... but then here the entire queue is a lot shorter then any boss fight I've ever fought... so generally you could have been fighting a boss for 30 minutes or more before failing...
here if you're entire mission goes longer then 15 minutes you've pretty much already failed.
I can't speak for Evercrack but in Censoredraft TRIBBLE up a boss mechanic just once did not put the raid on a lockout for half an hour.
There were always tricks in evercrack as one who played a rogue if we were close to a wipe I would feign death to ensure that we had at least one man left alive .. and then would proceed to rez the group and try try again.
We left on our terms even iff the evil boss did not die
We left on our terms even iff the evil boss did not die
And there's the issue right there.
OUR Terms.. people don't like it when someone causes something to them that's not on THEIR TERMS...
CC'd too much... people cry... placated... people cry... and god forbid if you're confused and forced to attack your own team... people would cry because it's not THEIR TERMS...
TRIBBLE THEIR terms... you failed... you shouldn't be reward.
You lost... the opposite of didn't win.. you're a loser... a failure...
You lost... the opposite of didn't win.. you're a loser... a failure...
You shouldn't be rewarded.
so leaving the raid instance empty handed without his head on a pike and after having spend a truckload of game currency repairing all your broken armour wasn't enough?
yes people play games to have fun I think not getting the bosses head to put in your guild hall and enduring extremely expensive repairs and the dissappointment of not completing the task is punishment enough is it not? At least I got to play the game for the evening even if we didnt play well and win.
the present model has people doing one thing .. failing in the first 15 seconds for content that is meant to take less then 5 mintues in many cases to complete and logging out of the game for the night.
so leaving empty handed without his head on a pike and after having spend a truckload of game currency repairing all your broken armour wasn't enough?
yes people play games to have fun I think not getting the bosses head to put in your guild hall and enduring extremely expensive repairs and the dissappointment of not completing the task is punishment enough is it not? At least I got to play the game for the evening even if we didnt play well and win.
the present model has people doing one thing .. failing in the first 15 seconds for content that is meant to take less then 5 mintues in many cases to complete and logging out of the game for the night.
This is STO... as you said previously this is an easy more game... what penalties are there for failure exactly..
Cost you what... free repairs at a starbase... so there are no extremely expensive repairs... and the disappointment lasts what... 30 minutes until you get to try again and you're carried through and win this time and feel that you actually did someting.
Hell with how bad the reward system is in queues... it's almost more disappointing to actually win and see how pathetic the prizes are... then to lose i nthis game.
The present model practically rewards you for being incompetant... as long as you have someone in your match capable of carrying your sorry behind... in EQ everyone needed to be part of a team and contribute for you to succeed... here... only really one or two people need to do all the work... the rest can be rewarded for being incompetant...
but the person doing all the work... she gets penalized because she couldn't get all the optionals because she was too busy carrying their sorry behinds just to succeed.
Sucks if you're that one person... but then you shouldn't have pugged...
The incompetants... they need to learn.. a place to figure out that they suck and how to improve...
Which is what normals are for... if you can learn the system in Normal and get some relatively decent gear... you can succeed at Advanced and probably do pretty close to getting the optionals... which I think is what Cryptic is trying to do here..
But really they need to stop giving people who aren't ready (in EQ terms don't have the proper knowledge and skills and gear) the reasons to come into Advanced queues and ruining it for everyone else...
and making Advanced easier isn't the best... making it more like Normals is great for learning... but now they need to take away the incentives for failing Advanced.
Why is it insulting and rude? If I'm experiencing an issue, the first thing I'm going to look at is it something that I'm doing? Is it something that I can correct? It's me, I'm the closest thing I can look at. If I can eliminate me, then I can move on to what else it might be. If I ignore that it might be me...well, no matter where I go then...I'm bringing the problem along.
That failed run up there? Nowhere I'd have pointed the finger first if I hadn't been looking for a fail and expecting one? At me. Yep, no pointing fingers. Fingers were only pointed in that example because of the discussion about learning. Something like that happening normally? Yeah, I would have had the GW instead of Tyken's would have popped RMC and QSM before tossing that out. Before heading over there to drop it out, I would have popped Photonic and Nimbus, made sure I'd dropped Sensor Scan, had the aft Turrets feeding APB into the target...and would have had plenty of time. Cause before Nanites actually appear, they do their weird warp in thing and I'm always looking that way watching for it. On would have shifted to Engine Power and hit Rock 'n Roll to get back toward the Transformer while mentioning that we need to take out the Transformer - that I'd drop out heals if needed - just focus fire so we could burn it down before they got there. I'd park the nose at zero watching the health of the Trans and the location of the Nanites. If need be, I'd fly over and park in front of the first one so they backed up to give the other folks the time they needed - knowing that I'd likely get taken out having burned through all my buffs/heals for the guys over at the Trans and that the Gateway would frag me. I go boom, but the group gets the Trans down.
Cause...that's how I build. That's how I've built for countless toons over the years. Cause I get that rush out of something going wrong like that and having to do everything I can to fix it.
So when something actually fails, I'm going to look at myself first for what happened...I didn't need to with that run, cause I went in with the attitude that I was just going to play "normal" and not try to fix anything...not try to cover. And if the two players had just fired on the Trans, it would have been fine.
But first...that blame's on me. So I don't see how suggesting that folks look at what they're doing before pointing fingers at anybody else could be considered insulting or rude. What did I do? What could I have done differently? I don't have control over anybody or anything else...
the rest.. I like to pug and I am a very good player. I find it unfun to end up in a group where one guy makes a mistake and the entire group fails and I have to get back inline again after a half hour penalty.
Which sounds like a good reason to argue for a reduced cooldown on missions that were failed, no? Eating 30 minutes because somebody goofed, d/c'd, tried to activate an ability 9001 times without anything happening, actually had the ability show as activating but didn't happen (think that was either my last complaint or next to last complaint in the Worst STF thread - GW went on CD while activated on a fresh target but no GW appeared...that ticked me off)...all sorts of stuff can happen.
Can't make it instant to requeue, cause this game is just riddled with too many trolls that would sit there failing group after group after group...but a reduced CD, yeah? That definitely sounds like something that would be a great argument for, no?
At the same time though, oh well, that run failed...can't try again for another half hour...it's not exactly a case that there's nothing else one can do during that time, eh?
If there's no chance of failure with something, then what's really the point of doing it? It's just busy work at that point, no? Or just some meaningless fun, eh? Might as well play Bejeweled (do folks still play that?) or such.
It's one of the reasons I don't do channel runs. I don't want the boredom that would come with it. Oh great, just successfully ran X for the 9001st time without the slightest challenge...um, yay.
no normals do not teach the right things people blow through them in overpowered ships and then end up TRIBBLE up the advanced not realizing. however the worste problem is the fact its a 100% fullproof griefing tool.
Certain things, yep, they've got stuff that folks can troll. But others?
And as for the not teaching...again, that sounds like a player issue not a system issue.
You need to reward people for things like flawless runs and stuff. You dont punish people by slapping em in the face and booting them out of the instance causing them to well no longer be engaged.
I guess that kind of goes back to the insulting and rude thing. How is it a slap in the face?
I fail to see why abusing players who make mistakes or whatever helps people have a better game? After what I saw in the CC event recently? Why is it my fault the others in the group didnt know to run away ? Why did I have to spent 2 hours waiting in lines to play less then 3 mintues of content because of it?
I don't run away. There's no reason for me to run away. Even all jacked to Hell, the Entity's never taken me below 25%...usually it never even registers any hull damage, might blink 99% for a moment and then be back to 100% and the shield facing will be back in two blinks. I rarely see anybody on the team, even in the lightest of ships, drop below 50% hull from taking a hit.
That 25% one was a fail last week I guess it was, only the second one I've seen fail. Hell, when the first happened I didn't even realize it could actually fail. It's something I'll usually run 2-3x times a day...and both times, I kind of chuckled...it was kind of funny. There was no CD on it. Just queued up and ran another one without any issue. And how on Earth did you wait 2 hours? Crystalline's less than a minute wait most of the time...even outside of the event that was going on, cause it's the absolute easiest queue and it rewards Radiogenic - so it's always bumping.
I guess one thing that I needed from going through and typing out this reply...was the reminder that it's just a game and not to stress it so much. Slap in the face? Punished? Kind of makes me feel silly about my hostage comments...lol/meh.
I know you and I don't see eye to eye on this one but I guess I'll try one more time.
Normal should be where you learn... and like everything learned what comes after should be based on what you learned earlier. In this case Normal should be where you learn the systems put in place and where you learn your own weaknesses.
They addressed this by making Advanced like normals... where exactly what you learned in normal.. .exactly... is what you bring with you to Advanced.
So basically Advanced should be harder then normal not in completion requirements... but in regards to the difficulty and number of the NPC mobs that are coming at you.
Basically what I'm saying here is... you learn the SYSTEM in normal... but you need to learn your BUILD and EQUIPEMENT in order to complete Advanced... and you need to learn COMMUNICATION in order to complete Elite...
So the issue I say previously with your numbers isn't that Advanced is any easier... it's the same as it was before... people don't know the system...
This isn't a problem with Advanced just being a harder version of Normal... it has to do with the reward system in place now...
Again it falls back on those BNPs... Advanced Queues are the easiest way to get BNPs... and the most promulgated by Cryptic... so people do them...
Hell I'm not totally conviced that the idiot Person E in your above wasn't a troll just trying to blow the quest.
But it boils down to this... there is no incentive to do Normals... none... so people pop into Advanced.. like they always have... hoping for someone to carry them through... because their lazy...
I think you, I, and Shadow all agree on this.
But fixing the issue where Normal can now be used as a true gateway to advanced is a great start... and the best place to start... now they have to work on incentive.
I guess it's a personal incentive. It offers a basic litmus test at the very least to go through a shakedown cruise of the map on a new toon in possibly a new ship to see if there are any possible kinks. It's something that can help prevent being "that guy" that goofed something up in Advanced/Elite, even if I've run it countless times on countless toons over the years. I want to have a successful run...it's just a little checklist thing to kind of help make sure that I'm going to be pulling my weight in some fashion and contribute to that successful run at a higher tier. I didn't run ISA until Dec 30th...after what folks were talking about the requirements for it at launch, I wasn't going anywhere near that. Even with what said by November and later that things had been nerfed into the ground, I still didn't go near it - I was building for those initial requirements that had been stated with launch and trying to put in some buffer should somebody else not have done that.
The incentive for things like Normal...it's just to have a better run later, avoid the potential sour experience in the Advanced...and well, more than any reward the game might offer me with Dil, mats, Marks, whatever - if I have a TRIBBLE experience, I'm not going to want to do it again and it will always be tainted by that, or that taint will be damn difficult to get rid of...
...it's a game. I want to have fun. I'm not going to try to sabotage my own fun. So to me, there's plenty of incentive to hit up Normal.
I guess it's a personal incentive. It offers a basic litmus test at the very least to go through a shakedown cruise of the map on a new toon in possibly a new ship to see if there are any possible kinks. It's something that can help prevent being "that guy" that goofed something up in Advanced/Elite, even if I've run it countless times on countless toons over the years. I want to have a successful run...it's just a little checklist thing to kind of help make sure that I'm going to be pulling my weight in some fashion and contribute to that successful run at a higher tier. I didn't run ISA until Dec 30th...after what folks were talking about the requirements for it at launch, I wasn't going anywhere near that. Even with what said by November and later that things had been nerfed into the ground, I still didn't go near it - I was building for those initial requirements that had been stated with launch and trying to put in some buffer should somebody else not have done that.
The incentive for things like Normal...it's just to have a better run later, avoid the potential sour experience in the Advanced...and well, more than any reward the game might offer me with Dil, mats, Marks, whatever - if I have a TRIBBLE experience, I'm not going to want to do it again and it will always be tainted by that, or that taint will be damn difficult to get rid of...
...it's a game. I want to have fun. I'm not going to try to sabotage my own fun. So to me, there's plenty of incentive to hit up Normal.
See I agree with you... but looking at the bigger picture... people don't want "personal incentive"... look at the boards and how many self-entitled people are here demanding Cryptic give them something for nothing.
Most people are lazy... entitled little brats. They don't want difficult. They don't want to work. They want their goverment... errr... Cryptic... free handouts so they can sit around and talk in ESD zone about how great they are.... and it never ends.. once you give them something those entitlement issues kick in and they thing they're owed even more.
So basically you and I are in agreement... it's just about how to go about getting those people who DO want to learn a safe environment to learn in... while the idiots who just want their free handouts can get them without bothering those of us who want to learn and try and work. Where we disagree is HOW to go about doing this.
Yes and, IMO it was something that was needed, as it showed exactly how bad so many player's truly are and, showed also how little interest good player's had in teaming up with the bad ones!
Yea smooth sailing through pve endgame seemed to be the top priority of a lot of good players organizing in DPS channels and using them over public queues.
I never mind a challenge so I pug a lot and go in with peeps of various standings in my fleet and favour this over my participation in the DPS channels. Problem is just that advanced fail criteria did not provide me with any form of challenge. They werent even noticeable in a good team while being mere annoyances messed up my single individuals when in a bad group.
Sorry, I did not find them challenging in any way. A few CCA failed in 10k the past 3 weeks because of people being stupid or spoiled by their capabilities but on a general tone the removing of advanced fails should be no influence on them in any way (at least I hope lol) so nobody should be hurt to the slightest with the upcoming change.
If still any elitists feelings are hurt over advanced contend made easier for bad players not being advanced enough to be worth playing with I suggest to focus on new elite mode entirely. You will find the fail criteria still around there so nothing lost if you are ready for elite. If contend you seek is not available in an elite version just focus on those maps that have it. Similar advice was issued for bad players getting their BNP outside of advanced queues as well.
I really think the STO community has spoken on the matter of advanced queues and that in form of Cryptics metrics.
I can live with that change just fine and hope for a full queue list in the long run as result.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Does a normal infected space in any way prepare a new level 50 for advanced ?....Short answer no it does not
Does it lead the player to making a better build ? No it does not
Does cryptic have hints and suggestions leading players to a site to help them make there builds better or explaining basic mechanics ? no it does not
Do other players have the time in content to help these players and still do the content ?...No they do not
Its the same story on advanced and Elite levels
What we have here is a total lack of gamemastering ability on cryptics part
A lot of Q's were empty prior to DR and there still empty because they simply arnt fun to play for many reasons and after there fail condititions are removed they will still be empty because they were never fun in the first place
The one good thing cryptic has finally realized is that failing a group for some obscure reason a few minutes into the content was counterproductive to having players have a happy game experience....................The nanite sphere fail on infected is a perfect stupid fail mechanic to spotlight as the worst of the worst fails
We have a new benefit this time which cryptic did unknowlingly which will help training new players..............The content NPCs are much harder now verses the old elite...........many of them will get blown up over and over and over and will make then seek out help or respond to those offering help
Right now its almost impossible to help these people because the Content fails so fast and frankly its cryptics job to offer basic training tips for there content not some non cryptic web site
The new infected space will become very popular again when its fails are removed and it will be a challenge to us vet players to pull these new players thru it, I see most of us having a lot of fun with it again
To those of you with your pet builds and ships tailored to those fail condititions who will now have to rise to that challenge, Gear up for it just like you geared up and became comfortable with the current garbage Fail condititions
You know had no problems pulling 3 leachs before DR thru elite content and getting the opps
Now with the better NPS it will be a real challenge to complete the content
About rewards..............There trash right now..for rewards the current Advanced Qs arnt worth do just for the reward that's a separate issue most less than 1/2 prior DR
Space rewards are garbage the rewards are on the ground and a few other places :P
Show us what you got Mr Grey lets see some gamemastering
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
OUR Terms.. people don't like it when someone causes something to them that's not on THEIR TERMS...
CC'd too much... people cry... placated... people cry... and god forbid if you're confused and forced to attack your own team... people would cry because it's not THEIR TERMS...
TRIBBLE THEIR terms... you failed... you shouldn't be reward.
You lost... the opposite of didn't win.. you're a loser... a failure...
You shouldn't be rewarded.
What a Crock of utter BS
If you ever tried being a gamemaster the first thing you would find out is what a complete Failure you would be in that role.
I am being mild of course
But you would be right in line with the failures who added the failures in the current content so you wouldn't be like..Dead last :P :P :P
There are a lot of really good ways to make a mission a failure and not 1 , Not 1 failure in the entire line of cryptic content is actually a believable failure for Q'ed missions
not 1
When a gamemaster puts a fail on a party they have to do it in such a way the party learns from there mistake and has fun losing
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
If you ever tried being a gamemaster the first thing you would find out is what a complete Failure you would be in that role.
I am being mild of course
But you would be right in line with the failures who added the failures in the current content so you wouldn't be like..Dead last :P :P :P
There are a lot of really good ways to make a mission a failure and not 1 , Not 1 failure in the entire line of cryptic content is actually a believable failure for Q'ed missions
not 1
When a gamemaster puts a fail on a party they have to do it in such a way the party learns from there mistake and has fun losing
Funny, I have yet to ever see this as a requisite, for any RPG.
Funny, I have yet to ever see this as a requisite, for any RPG.
Nothing states, that a GM, must be any of this!
It's not...it's all subjective...folks are different...and folks ran different games...it's just a preference/opinion being offered as fact. It's the STO forums...it happens. A lot...
It's not...it's all subjective...folks are different...and folks ran different games...it's just a preference/opinion being offered as fact. It's the STO forums...it happens. A lot...
Don't get me wrong.
A sign of a good GM, will usually do all they can to make the entire game fun but, making it so that there is no such thing as failure IMO, is utterly pointless!
I want to add my support to this. I appreciate having the autofail conditions removed.
I did azure nebula today and we had two people that did nothing until after the optional but we still finished the mission and got rewards so I appreciate it.
I would love for this to be done to the borg STFs also. We had someone today that volunteered for gate duty on khitomer to stop probes and they did not fire on a single probe, let them through and then the mission was an autofail. It is just too easy to troll the missions so I really feel the changes to the advanced queues so that they are no longer auto fail and easy to troll will be very nice.
Funny, I have yet to ever see this as a requisite, for any RPG.
Nothing states, that a GM, must be any of this!
No he must not be any of that, but it is good to be an ENTERTAINING GM that makes the players have fun........ that or he will quickly notice he has a serious lack of players in his group. :rolleyes:
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
No he must not be any of that, but it is good to be an ENTERTAINING GM that makes the players have fun........ that or he will quickly notice he has a serious lack of players in his group. :rolleyes:
Stop assuming that "your" fun is the same fun for everybody, yeah? Your pinky...the world...it doesn't work that way.
They can even learn *in* the run now. Without a half hour of not learning anything for failing the first optional. Shocking I know.
Yeah... I thought that was pretty much stated in my post, but thank for agreeing that Cryptic's new approach is much better the the one with fail mechanism.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Stop assuming that "your" fun is the same fun for everybody, yeah? Your pinky...the world...it doesn't work that way.
But you think your idea of fun is what everyone should follow apparently. :rolleyes:
In other words it is supposed to be your way or the highway. :P
In the real world though my statement stands. If a GM does not entertain he will not have players as they will move on to other activities.
That being said, if you as GM have a group that want to be punished as fun your approach will probably work quite well.
PS: Please try to use some consistency in your arguments so logic does not make them invalid.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Yeah... I thought that was pretty much stated in my post, but thank for agreeing that Cryptic's new approach is much better the the one with fail mechanism.
It was there, I just made it explicit.
Had a ANRA pug, missed the first optional but then the others saw two ships tag teaming with one grabbing the attention and the other rescuing and guess what? Next optional was done with time to spare.
They tried their way first and received negative feedback by failing the optional.
Then they tried a new way and received immediate positive feedback by making the optional.
No one bawled them out for being newbs for blowing the first one and giving everyone a cooldown. They might even pass on the tactic to future pugs.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Comments
i'm a hardcore everquest player been playing for well almost 20 years. Raid instances let you sit in them and work out problems you wipe.. your rez and you go at it again we did it for hours and hours several days a week until one day we solved the puzzle. We certainly were not booted out 5 seconds after we entered the instance after 2 people died or we experienced a complete wipe.
We got locked out after we gave up for the night and had several instances on rotation we were working on but we were able to remain inside the instance to work on things that required in some cases very precise and complicated timing. We didnt get some pop up in our face if we didnt solve the puzzle the first time we tried and tried again until our armour and weapons were useless or we ran out of kits or were just too exhausted to continue.
sto is an easy game its built for casuals not hardcore gamers the way the bulk of players attack the content wont change. There is no solution all I know is that no one could PUG ever. Most people all but stopped using the q system which was designed around short bursts of content mean to occupy about 5 or 10 minute blocks. The system became "hurry up and get in line and wait".
If they want to make more challenging content they need to design it properly and not take content that is meant for people with A.D.D. and try to turn it into something else LOL.
Which is really no different here... you go into a queue... you fail... you go back out... discuss with your team what went wrong... and you go back in...
In EQ you NEVER, EVER pugged a raid... ever... didn't do it in EQ... nor EQII... nor WoW... or any other of the huge list of MMOs out there that I've played...
You went in with a team... maybe semi-pugged... but you basically went in with the holy trinity of MMOS... and if you didn't have the holy trinity you didn't go into the raid until you had it...
then you died... went back to the respawn (in this case sector space) and then went back at it when you had a better idea of what went wrong... and if someone Leroy Jenkin's it... you kicked them... left... and went back in...
Here there are no raids... only queues... but if you pug them you get what you ask for...
If you pre-made it... and fail... you just leave recommunicate... figure out a new tactic... maybe do some research (like you did in EQ when you PM a buddy who you know did it)... and go back at it...
No difference at all..
But not once in my entire time in EQ when I failed a raid did I go running to mommy and daddy dev and say "this is too hard, I'm entitled to easy".
What I did is learn and grow and get better and ask questions and fail... and fail... and fail... and fail... until I didn't fail any more...
and if it was truly and utterly unbeatable without exploits... then you said something to the dev.... using facts and figures and builds and more facts... and more facts... and more facts... to set your case up... and generally at that point the devs listened to you becaues all the facts and figures were there and jived with what their metrics said...
But "It's too hard give me easy street" wasn't ever even remotely concidered in EQ... because doing that got you labeled by EVERYONE...
But not that MMOs are mainstream... and you have every single entitled kiddie and their parents playing MMOs.. it's become less about achievement and more about "Everyone deserves to win and get a trophey that says "You're number 1" even when you came in last place. Everyone deserves to be on the team and be called a winner. Everyone gets that letterman jacket with the Varsity V on it...
these aren't raids though they are like quick 5 minute little quicky things. Why on earth would you do anything but pug them LOL.
in EQ you had ways to rez and remain in the instance you had healers and druids and rogues and paladins. We remained in them for hours on end until we could continue no more and when we left it was our choice and after that we had our lockout.
So let's see, 40 + 20 +20 +20 +20 = 120 = 3 *40
I can't speak for Evercrack but in Censoredraft TRIBBLE up a boss mechanic just once did not put the raid on a lockout for half an hour.
True... but then here the entire queue is a lot shorter then any boss fight I've ever fought... so generally you could have been fighting a boss for 30 minutes or more before failing...
here if you're entire mission goes longer then 15 minutes you've pretty much already failed.
There were always tricks in evercrack as one who played a rogue if we were close to a wipe I would feign death to ensure that we had at least one man left alive .. and then would proceed to rez the group and try try again.
We left on our terms even iff the evil boss did not die
And there's the issue right there.
OUR Terms.. people don't like it when someone causes something to them that's not on THEIR TERMS...
CC'd too much... people cry... placated... people cry... and god forbid if you're confused and forced to attack your own team... people would cry because it's not THEIR TERMS...
TRIBBLE THEIR terms... you failed... you shouldn't be reward.
You lost... the opposite of didn't win.. you're a loser... a failure...
You shouldn't be rewarded.
so leaving the raid instance empty handed without his head on a pike and after having spend a truckload of game currency repairing all your broken armour wasn't enough?
yes people play games to have fun I think not getting the bosses head to put in your guild hall and enduring extremely expensive repairs and the dissappointment of not completing the task is punishment enough is it not? At least I got to play the game for the evening even if we didnt play well and win.
the present model has people doing one thing .. failing in the first 15 seconds for content that is meant to take less then 5 mintues in many cases to complete and logging out of the game for the night.
This is STO... as you said previously this is an easy more game... what penalties are there for failure exactly..
Cost you what... free repairs at a starbase... so there are no extremely expensive repairs... and the disappointment lasts what... 30 minutes until you get to try again and you're carried through and win this time and feel that you actually did someting.
Hell with how bad the reward system is in queues... it's almost more disappointing to actually win and see how pathetic the prizes are... then to lose i nthis game.
The present model practically rewards you for being incompetant... as long as you have someone in your match capable of carrying your sorry behind... in EQ everyone needed to be part of a team and contribute for you to succeed... here... only really one or two people need to do all the work... the rest can be rewarded for being incompetant...
but the person doing all the work... she gets penalized because she couldn't get all the optionals because she was too busy carrying their sorry behinds just to succeed.
Sucks if you're that one person... but then you shouldn't have pugged...
The incompetants... they need to learn.. a place to figure out that they suck and how to improve...
Which is what normals are for... if you can learn the system in Normal and get some relatively decent gear... you can succeed at Advanced and probably do pretty close to getting the optionals... which I think is what Cryptic is trying to do here..
But really they need to stop giving people who aren't ready (in EQ terms don't have the proper knowledge and skills and gear) the reasons to come into Advanced queues and ruining it for everyone else...
and making Advanced easier isn't the best... making it more like Normals is great for learning... but now they need to take away the incentives for failing Advanced.
Why is it insulting and rude? If I'm experiencing an issue, the first thing I'm going to look at is it something that I'm doing? Is it something that I can correct? It's me, I'm the closest thing I can look at. If I can eliminate me, then I can move on to what else it might be. If I ignore that it might be me...well, no matter where I go then...I'm bringing the problem along.
That failed run up there? Nowhere I'd have pointed the finger first if I hadn't been looking for a fail and expecting one? At me. Yep, no pointing fingers. Fingers were only pointed in that example because of the discussion about learning. Something like that happening normally? Yeah, I would have had the GW instead of Tyken's would have popped RMC and QSM before tossing that out. Before heading over there to drop it out, I would have popped Photonic and Nimbus, made sure I'd dropped Sensor Scan, had the aft Turrets feeding APB into the target...and would have had plenty of time. Cause before Nanites actually appear, they do their weird warp in thing and I'm always looking that way watching for it. On would have shifted to Engine Power and hit Rock 'n Roll to get back toward the Transformer while mentioning that we need to take out the Transformer - that I'd drop out heals if needed - just focus fire so we could burn it down before they got there. I'd park the nose at zero watching the health of the Trans and the location of the Nanites. If need be, I'd fly over and park in front of the first one so they backed up to give the other folks the time they needed - knowing that I'd likely get taken out having burned through all my buffs/heals for the guys over at the Trans and that the Gateway would frag me. I go boom, but the group gets the Trans down.
Cause...that's how I build. That's how I've built for countless toons over the years. Cause I get that rush out of something going wrong like that and having to do everything I can to fix it.
So when something actually fails, I'm going to look at myself first for what happened...I didn't need to with that run, cause I went in with the attitude that I was just going to play "normal" and not try to fix anything...not try to cover. And if the two players had just fired on the Trans, it would have been fine.
But first...that blame's on me. So I don't see how suggesting that folks look at what they're doing before pointing fingers at anybody else could be considered insulting or rude. What did I do? What could I have done differently? I don't have control over anybody or anything else...
Which sounds like a good reason to argue for a reduced cooldown on missions that were failed, no? Eating 30 minutes because somebody goofed, d/c'd, tried to activate an ability 9001 times without anything happening, actually had the ability show as activating but didn't happen (think that was either my last complaint or next to last complaint in the Worst STF thread - GW went on CD while activated on a fresh target but no GW appeared...that ticked me off)...all sorts of stuff can happen.
Can't make it instant to requeue, cause this game is just riddled with too many trolls that would sit there failing group after group after group...but a reduced CD, yeah? That definitely sounds like something that would be a great argument for, no?
At the same time though, oh well, that run failed...can't try again for another half hour...it's not exactly a case that there's nothing else one can do during that time, eh?
If there's no chance of failure with something, then what's really the point of doing it? It's just busy work at that point, no? Or just some meaningless fun, eh? Might as well play Bejeweled (do folks still play that?) or such.
It's one of the reasons I don't do channel runs. I don't want the boredom that would come with it. Oh great, just successfully ran X for the 9001st time without the slightest challenge...um, yay.
Certain things, yep, they've got stuff that folks can troll. But others?
And as for the not teaching...again, that sounds like a player issue not a system issue.
I guess that kind of goes back to the insulting and rude thing. How is it a slap in the face?
I don't run away. There's no reason for me to run away. Even all jacked to Hell, the Entity's never taken me below 25%...usually it never even registers any hull damage, might blink 99% for a moment and then be back to 100% and the shield facing will be back in two blinks. I rarely see anybody on the team, even in the lightest of ships, drop below 50% hull from taking a hit.
That 25% one was a fail last week I guess it was, only the second one I've seen fail. Hell, when the first happened I didn't even realize it could actually fail. It's something I'll usually run 2-3x times a day...and both times, I kind of chuckled...it was kind of funny. There was no CD on it. Just queued up and ran another one without any issue. And how on Earth did you wait 2 hours? Crystalline's less than a minute wait most of the time...even outside of the event that was going on, cause it's the absolute easiest queue and it rewards Radiogenic - so it's always bumping.
I guess one thing that I needed from going through and typing out this reply...was the reminder that it's just a game and not to stress it so much. Slap in the face? Punished? Kind of makes me feel silly about my hostage comments...lol/meh.
I guess it's a personal incentive. It offers a basic litmus test at the very least to go through a shakedown cruise of the map on a new toon in possibly a new ship to see if there are any possible kinks. It's something that can help prevent being "that guy" that goofed something up in Advanced/Elite, even if I've run it countless times on countless toons over the years. I want to have a successful run...it's just a little checklist thing to kind of help make sure that I'm going to be pulling my weight in some fashion and contribute to that successful run at a higher tier. I didn't run ISA until Dec 30th...after what folks were talking about the requirements for it at launch, I wasn't going anywhere near that. Even with what said by November and later that things had been nerfed into the ground, I still didn't go near it - I was building for those initial requirements that had been stated with launch and trying to put in some buffer should somebody else not have done that.
The incentive for things like Normal...it's just to have a better run later, avoid the potential sour experience in the Advanced...and well, more than any reward the game might offer me with Dil, mats, Marks, whatever - if I have a TRIBBLE experience, I'm not going to want to do it again and it will always be tainted by that, or that taint will be damn difficult to get rid of...
...it's a game. I want to have fun. I'm not going to try to sabotage my own fun. So to me, there's plenty of incentive to hit up Normal.
See I agree with you... but looking at the bigger picture... people don't want "personal incentive"... look at the boards and how many self-entitled people are here demanding Cryptic give them something for nothing.
Most people are lazy... entitled little brats. They don't want difficult. They don't want to work. They want their goverment... errr... Cryptic... free handouts so they can sit around and talk in ESD zone about how great they are.... and it never ends.. once you give them something those entitlement issues kick in and they thing they're owed even more.
So basically you and I are in agreement... it's just about how to go about getting those people who DO want to learn a safe environment to learn in... while the idiots who just want their free handouts can get them without bothering those of us who want to learn and try and work. Where we disagree is HOW to go about doing this.
Yea smooth sailing through pve endgame seemed to be the top priority of a lot of good players organizing in DPS channels and using them over public queues.
I never mind a challenge so I pug a lot and go in with peeps of various standings in my fleet and favour this over my participation in the DPS channels. Problem is just that advanced fail criteria did not provide me with any form of challenge. They werent even noticeable in a good team while being mere annoyances messed up my single individuals when in a bad group.
Sorry, I did not find them challenging in any way. A few CCA failed in 10k the past 3 weeks because of people being stupid or spoiled by their capabilities but on a general tone the removing of advanced fails should be no influence on them in any way (at least I hope lol) so nobody should be hurt to the slightest with the upcoming change.
If still any elitists feelings are hurt over advanced contend made easier for bad players not being advanced enough to be worth playing with I suggest to focus on new elite mode entirely. You will find the fail criteria still around there so nothing lost if you are ready for elite. If contend you seek is not available in an elite version just focus on those maps that have it. Similar advice was issued for bad players getting their BNP outside of advanced queues as well.
I really think the STO community has spoken on the matter of advanced queues and that in form of Cryptics metrics.
I can live with that change just fine and hope for a full queue list in the long run as result.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Does it lead the player to making a better build ? No it does not
Does cryptic have hints and suggestions leading players to a site to help them make there builds better or explaining basic mechanics ? no it does not
Do other players have the time in content to help these players and still do the content ?...No they do not
Its the same story on advanced and Elite levels
What we have here is a total lack of gamemastering ability on cryptics part
A lot of Q's were empty prior to DR and there still empty because they simply arnt fun to play for many reasons and after there fail condititions are removed they will still be empty because they were never fun in the first place
The one good thing cryptic has finally realized is that failing a group for some obscure reason a few minutes into the content was counterproductive to having players have a happy game experience....................The nanite sphere fail on infected is a perfect stupid fail mechanic to spotlight as the worst of the worst fails
We have a new benefit this time which cryptic did unknowlingly which will help training new players..............The content NPCs are much harder now verses the old elite...........many of them will get blown up over and over and over and will make then seek out help or respond to those offering help
Right now its almost impossible to help these people because the Content fails so fast and frankly its cryptics job to offer basic training tips for there content not some non cryptic web site
The new infected space will become very popular again when its fails are removed and it will be a challenge to us vet players to pull these new players thru it, I see most of us having a lot of fun with it again
To those of you with your pet builds and ships tailored to those fail condititions who will now have to rise to that challenge, Gear up for it just like you geared up and became comfortable with the current garbage Fail condititions
You know had no problems pulling 3 leachs before DR thru elite content and getting the opps
Now with the better NPS it will be a real challenge to complete the content
About rewards..............There trash right now..for rewards the current Advanced Qs arnt worth do just for the reward that's a separate issue most less than 1/2 prior DR
Space rewards are garbage the rewards are on the ground and a few other places :P
Show us what you got Mr Grey lets see some gamemastering
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
What a Crock of utter BS
If you ever tried being a gamemaster the first thing you would find out is what a complete Failure you would be in that role.
I am being mild of course
But you would be right in line with the failures who added the failures in the current content so you wouldn't be like..Dead last :P :P :P
There are a lot of really good ways to make a mission a failure and not 1 , Not 1 failure in the entire line of cryptic content is actually a believable failure for Q'ed missions
not 1
When a gamemaster puts a fail on a party they have to do it in such a way the party learns from there mistake and has fun losing
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Funny, I have yet to ever see this as a requisite, for any RPG.
Nothing states, that a GM, must be any of this!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It's not...it's all subjective...folks are different...and folks ran different games...it's just a preference/opinion being offered as fact. It's the STO forums...it happens. A lot...
Don't get me wrong.
A sign of a good GM, will usually do all they can to make the entire game fun but, making it so that there is no such thing as failure IMO, is utterly pointless!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I did azure nebula today and we had two people that did nothing until after the optional but we still finished the mission and got rewards so I appreciate it.
I would love for this to be done to the borg STFs also. We had someone today that volunteered for gate duty on khitomer to stop probes and they did not fire on a single probe, let them through and then the mission was an autofail. It is just too easy to troll the missions so I really feel the changes to the advanced queues so that they are no longer auto fail and easy to troll will be very nice.
Bull****.
Now they can learn by improving result each run, until they get all optionals, instead of fail mechanism before they even start to learn.
This was a great move by Cryptic.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
They can even learn *in* the run now. Without a half hour of not learning anything for failing the first optional. Shocking I know.
Cuz they just sit around and watch the guy handling the last point by himself try and cap probes and spheres while under fire.
No he must not be any of that, but it is good to be an ENTERTAINING GM that makes the players have fun........ that or he will quickly notice he has a serious lack of players in his group. :rolleyes:
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
If only there were a normal where one could learn what the Objectives were before showing up for a more advanced version of the queue...
...I wonder why Cryptic didn't consider going that route.
Oh...wait...what? Oh... :rolleyes:
Stop assuming that "your" fun is the same fun for everybody, yeah? Your pinky...the world...it doesn't work that way.
Yeah... I thought that was pretty much stated in my post, but thank for agreeing that Cryptic's new approach is much better the the one with fail mechanism.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
Yeah it would be sad if all players could play the content before elite.
How in heaven are you to feel supirior if that happens. :P
But you think your idea of fun is what everyone should follow apparently. :rolleyes:
In other words it is supposed to be your way or the highway. :P
In the real world though my statement stands. If a GM does not entertain he will not have players as they will move on to other activities.
That being said, if you as GM have a group that want to be punished as fun your approach will probably work quite well.
PS: Please try to use some consistency in your arguments so logic does not make them invalid.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
It was there, I just made it explicit.
Had a ANRA pug, missed the first optional but then the others saw two ships tag teaming with one grabbing the attention and the other rescuing and guess what? Next optional was done with time to spare.
They tried their way first and received negative feedback by failing the optional.
Then they tried a new way and received immediate positive feedback by making the optional.
No one bawled them out for being newbs for blowing the first one and giving everyone a cooldown. They might even pass on the tactic to future pugs.