So why do you care if they can now actually get them from pugging a queue? You know, like they used to be able to do back in the old elites?
New elite isn't going anywhere. Go play there and forget Advanced exists, filled with its dirty filthy uneducated scrubs.
It's funny that you seem to be the one calling folks the dirty, filthy, uneducated scrubs...imho. Well, it's also kind of sad...really sad.
So if it were a case of somebody coming along to let folks know that if they were to average 100 Weapon Power instead of 50 Weapon Power...that it would double their DPS...them sharing info like that is them calling those folks that might not have known that dirty, filthy, uneducated scrubs? Suggesting that they engage closer to 5km than <10km with their beams because they'll eat 20% less of a range penalty would probably be the same thing, yeah? Suggesting using Evasive to move between engagements, maybe switching to the Speed preset and back again, using an Engine Battery, etc to cut down on dead time...would probably also be insulting, yeah?
Cause like I said, this is the STO forums...TRIBBLE reality...trying to help folks is a cardinal sin and those folks must be punished! How dare they????
And folks keep talking about the folks that were enjoying Advanced to TRIBBLE off and go somewhere else? Seriously? Lol...I don't know what's funnier/sadder, them saying that or them being clueless about there not being the Elite versions of the content that they're trying to send those folks. There's no ANRE, ISE, CSE, KSE, CCE for them to go to...
...it's just so completely laughable that it hurts.
I think in reality peeps want to advance their toons by playing fun contend.
One may go to the buged world of Defera for anything but hardly for fun.
And...they can't do that...because? Nobody's putting any roadblocks in outside of the players complaining about the roadblocks. None of the content requires any of the gear from the content.
It's simple logic. If X rewards Y, then X can't require Y. You could never get Y from X if you needed Y to do X in the first place.
If only it were possible to get every APC one could need in two weeks from running Kobali without ever hitting up a queue. If only it were possible to get BNPs even faster than that from hitting up Defera.
But hey, who cares about reality...these are the STO forums!
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
I'm asking honestly here because I'm pretty sure it was access to very rare crafting materials and effective upgrades that inspired this change.
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
I'm asking honestly here because I'm pretty sure it was access to very rare crafting materials and effective upgrades that inspired this change.
Considering some consider the chance in the daily rep box of getting BNPs and the like to be sufficient for outfitting someone with rep gear you can R+D Assistance doff assignment at the academy for a 48 hour mission with a day+ cooldown to get a chance of purple materials.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Considering some consider the chance in the daily rep box of getting BNPs and the like to be sufficient for outfitting someone with rep gear you can R+D Assistance doff assignment at the academy for a 48 hour mission with a day+ cooldown to get a chance of purple materials.
Okay thank you.
I believe I like the progression path being laid out by the current changes better.
I cannont answer that quastion for you. I just saw the results in lack of particepation in endgame PvE queues the last 6 months. Something that was quiet different b4 DR.
I really think advanced fail criteria may have something to do with it. The next 6 moths will juge me right or wrong on that.
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Just played ANRA... the optionals are impossible to get unless you get a favourable spawn... would be interesting to know what testing they did on this queue?
Just played ANRA... the optionals are impossible to get unless you get a favourable spawn... would be interesting to know what testing they did on this queue?
I managed the optional with a 3, 2, 2, 2, 5. Got the 5 with about 1 second to spare.
But there is a long lag of no birds after the 4th, and if you get several 1's there's no way. This was an optimal pug group btw.
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As a player that started during the transition to Delta Rising, I never got to experience the old STF difficulties. So as a player that played exclusively on the "new" difficulty settings, I sort of understand where both sides of this debate is coming from.
On one side, there are players who genuinely enjoy the difficulties in successfully finishing an Advanced/Elite queue. I've only started to tip-toe myself into Advanced queues, and I only PUG. I've been through a whole lot of failed attempts, but I've made it a point to try to learn what went wrong, what I could have done better and adapted my build and playstyle through reading lots of threads here in these forums, Reddit, STO Academy and the wikis. I enjoyed the process and I always feel good whenever my PUG is successful in an advanced queue. In some ways, making Advanced easier will take away from that feeling of accomplishment, of actually having to think on your toes, adapt or change strategy midway just to complete a mission.
On the other hand, it's tough for any newbie to build-up on gear to be able to move forward to higher difficulties. I'm pretty patient in how I play, I only have 1 character, and I'm focusing my efforts to a single ship. So for a while, I used the freebie Solanae set and a combination of weapon drops and cheap exchange gear to get through normal queues. That let me max all of my rep levels and helped me gain those much-needed crafting materials to get the rep gear I need. And I only took what I needed, and that's why I have a surplus of BNPs even if I did not join any advanced STF, and I was able to get those APCs through ground missions. So it took a few months, but I got all the rep gear I needed, and now I am able to join and contribute in advanced STFs. I am currently in-between difficulties, where normal can be too easy, while advanced can still be a challenge.
The thing is, not every player will have that patience in approaching this game. I came from much grindier games than this, so I find the progression vs effort in this game to be fulfilling enough. I am sure a lot of players here play casually. In fact, they could very well be the majority of the base. Even for casual players though, there will always be an urge to find a sense of fulfillment, and in this game, that usually comes from succeeding in higher difficulty levels. For many people, a game is only fun when they are winning. The fact that post DR, we've got empty queues probably shows that players aren't having fun in them at all.
So maybe it's a good thing Cryptic is moving the difficulty bar and making it more accessible to the player base. Even if it won't be as challenging for seasoned players, or as fulfilling to complete for the average player, if it fills the queues and it keeps players coming back for more, than it's still a win-win for everyone IMO. I think we should give this change a chance and see where it brings us. Hopefully it's somewhere good.
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
I'm asking honestly here because I'm pretty sure it was access to very rare crafting materials and effective upgrades that inspired this change.
Thing is, in following the prices of the VR R&D mats on the Exchange - well, here - let's look at what they currently show at...er...or not, lol, I can't log in. /facepalm
But it is a good question, regarding those. Where I was going to go with that is how saturated the market is and how cheap they are at this point. Oh wait, finally got in.
Even though Radiogenic is likely the easiest to get, just being attached to the Beam Upgrades is going to put it out there for the demand purposes, eh?
Argonite being required for the most items, including those OD Arrays, Wide DHCs, Exotic Particle Sci Consoles, as well as for both Projectile and Shield Upgrades...yeah, that's going to drive up the price when you also factor in the availability of it.
Same would go to an extent for Plekton, eh? OD Arrays, Wide DHCs, and Exotic Sci Consoles in that regard...mixed in with the availability of it.
Which, imho, kind of points to poor balancing on the combination of use and availability of the mats, eh?
Imagine if the mats were spread out a bit more - the availability mixed up a bit more...so the supply demand were a bit more balanced, yeah? If things had a little more equal value sort of thing, right?
Lol, damn, look at those Projectile and Shields STUs...sheesh. Yep, Argonite...pesky Argonite. One of those imagine if its value were dropped and Trellium-K's increased by changing up the supply and demand for them, yeah?
But yeah...Argonite...Azure Nebula Rescue Advanced as the first one they're testing the changes with...go figure, eh?
Personally, just between EC gain from DOFFing and running whatever I'm running while also playing the RNG game (can be brutal, can be awesome, tends to be brutal) with the R&D Assistance...much like all the other rewards, I long ago stopped looking to the queues to get them. That would be setting myself up for all sorts of frustration otherwise...
I cannont answer that quastion for you. I just saw the results in lack of particepation in endgame PvE queues the last 6 months. Something that was quiet different b4 DR.
I really think advanced fail criteria may have something to do with it. The next 6 moths will juge me right or wrong on that.
See, I haven't seen that change. Course, I've got no clue about Ground. But the Space queues that are "dead" now were pretty much the Space queues that were "dead" before DR. That some new queues were added which were close to what those "dead" queues were should come as no surprise of them being "dead" as well.
Azure (Advanced) is new, so no comparison can be made.
Disconnected is new, so no comparison can be made.
Crystalline is as bumping as it ever was.
Hive is as dead as it ever was.
Infected is as bumping as it ever was.
Khitomer is moving along just like it ever was.
Storming is as dead as it ever was.
Korfez is new, so no comparison can be made.
Breach is as dead as it ever was.
Cure is moving along just like it ever was.
Undine is as dead as it ever was.
Viscous is as dead as it ever was.
That DR changed things, imho, is pure imagination....well, no - right there at launch? Hell yeah it changed things. But that was corrected by November and things are pretty much right back where they were before DR.
But again, like I said, I've got no idea how it affected Ground queues in the least...never looked at them before and haven't looked at them since.
edit: Have to wonder if I'm forgetting some stuff there that might have happened with S9.5...
It's simple logic. If X rewards Y, then X can't require Y. You could never get Y from X if you needed Y to do X in the first place.
I think there's some of this going on.
There's the perception (right or wrong) that Advanced queues require better gear to complete the optionals.
You get better gear through doing Reps or thru Crafting/Upgrades. The (arguably) best Rep gear requires special components that you normally only get by doing Advanced. Crafting the best stuff requires special materials that you normally only get by doing Advanced.
So one could easily understand the perception that people were being locked out of getting better gear. Even though that was never entirely true.
I'm not real worried about getting better gear and staying away from Advanced didn't bother me, so the change doesn't affect me a lot either way. This change (if it spreads to other queues) means I may try it, because I'm going to start Crafting more heavily and can use the mats.
But really? They could have just as easily left Advanced's mandatory objectives alone, increased the rewards, and then just add a chance to get the special drops in Normal.
Run Normal -- You might not get the mats drop you want. But you might.
Run Advanced -- You're guaranteed to get the mats drop and better rewards besides.
That right there would keep me happily running Normals, and likely have increased the number of people queuing for Normals and kept them out of the Advanced queues (for people who want a challenge).
The big difference is in what queues Cryptic wanted to improve participation for. The way they're doing it favors the Advanced queues. IMO, I think they should have weighted things toward the Normal queues to encourage people to learn the missions before attempting Advanced.
But what do I know? I'm not the target audience for the queues anyway. Or am I?
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There's the perception (right or wrong) that Advanced queues require better gear to complete the optionals.
You get better gear through doing Reps or thru Crafting/Upgrades. The (arguably) best Rep gear requires special components that you normally only get by doing Advanced. Crafting the best stuff requires special materials that you normally only get by doing Advanced.
So one could easily understand the perception that people were being locked out of getting better gear. Even though that was never entirely true.
Well, Geko said right off the back that Advanced itself might require better gear or better skill, yeah? So to an extent, it gets into what is that better gear?
For certain gear, could that include mission replay to get the Jem'Hadar, Breen, Solanae, or Kobali sets? Those would be a potential upgrade over random mission loot or non-set pieces some folks might be running, eh? Mission replay for weapons? Consoles? All sorts of things where "investment" might just mean time for mission replay rather than "Dil" or the like, possibly?
There are several folks out there that have done various guides for "freebie" gear for hitting up Advanced content so folks will have things that should provide them more than they need...leaning toward the other better gear getting more into hitting up Elite, eh?
Just gets into that discussion of what's "better" gear, yeah? Personally, I think Crytpic's (tinfoil hat time) stacked the deck against folks with some underlying mechanics. Like I mentioned earlier about the difference between averaging 100 Weapon Power vs. 50...one would be hard pressed to find gearing that's going to provide the boost that does. So folks could literally throw money at Cryptic and never see the benefit they would have by tweaking something like that - adjusting the distance they attack at - how they travel between engagements...cause those non-gear things can totally butcher anything somebody else is doing. It's part of why those extreme DPS folks are doing that extreme DPS while mere mortals aren't touching it...cause of how much a difference the non-gear stuff can mean and how tossing gear at things just won't fix that.
I'm not real worried about getting better gear and staying away from Advanced didn't bother me, so the change doesn't affect me a lot either way. This change (if it spreads to other queues) means I may try it, because I'm going to start Crafting more heavily and can use the mats.
With the mats, I just see that as a flawed system like I pointed out above...the supply/demand angle that they've created is causing all sorts of issues and the possibility for one VR mat to be near 300k EC and another not even worth 10k EC.
But really? They could have just as easily left Advanced's mandatory objectives alone, increased the rewards, and then just add a chance to get the special drops in Normal.
Run Normal -- You might not get the mats drop you want. But you might.
Run Advanced -- You're guaranteed to get the mats drop and better rewards besides.
That right there would keep me happily running Normals, and likely have increased the number of people queuing for Normals and kept them out of the Advanced queues (for people who want a challenge).
The big difference is in what queues Cryptic wanted to improve participation for. The way they're doing it favors the Advanced queues. IMO, I think they should have weighted things toward the Normal queues to encourage people to learn the missions before attempting Advanced.
But what do I know? I'm not the target audience for the queues anyway. Or am I?
To me, and kind of like I've complained elsewhere, heh, it's not the avenue of approach I'd have gone. I'd have gone with the more progressive - get more folks to think about hitting up Normal, reward them for doing so. Get them feeling better about the queues and themselves, their capabilities...then ease them into the next step if they wanted to take it...and the next step after that if they wanted to do so.
Instead...well...they're trying to get them into Advanced where even without the Mandatory Objectives, folks are still going to get yelled at over Optional Objectives, and have that sour experience, imho.
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
The exchange. They're all reasonably priced due to supply well exceeding demand.
There are better methods for farming up EC, but worst case would be to run normals and need roll on everything. Outside of the occasional upgrade manual, only vendor trash drops, and since everyone needs EC, Need = Greed. They might as well go ahead and remove the Greed option, and just make it Need/Pass.
And from what I've seen, anything which requires the VR R&D mats is often listed cheaper on the exchange than the sum of the cost of its materials, again due to supply exceeding demand.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
I'd have gone with the more progressive - get more folks to think about hitting up Normal, reward them for doing so. Get them feeling better about the queues and themselves, their capabilities...then ease them into the next step if they wanted to take it...and the next step after that if they wanted to do so.
Instead...well...they're trying to get them into Advanced where even without the Mandatory Objectives, folks are still going to get yelled at over Optional Objectives, and have that sour experience, imho.
Exactly. You've nailed what keeps me out of the queues for the most part.
Hard to complete? Good chance of team wipe, multiple respawns, or missed objectives? Fail w/o rewards? TRIBBLE over other players because I don't know what I'm doing?
Why would I bother?
Heck, I'd never even tried Normal CC until they came up with the event and gave it a reward even I couldn't resist.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
IMO, I think they should have weighted things toward the Normal queues to encourage people to learn the missions before attempting Advanced.
That's a good approach.
I might even go so far as to guarantee the R&D mat in normals, and increase it in higher difficulties. That can only increase the supply of the materials, decreasing their cost and the cost of any crafted items which require them.
Cheaper manuals would contribute to increased manual application, making upgrades a more effective dil sink. Then maybe they could drop the ridiculous cost for upgrading rarity at Mk XIV, for a net breakeven, at the benefit of an improvement in player participation and player morale.
The exchange. They're all reasonably priced due to supply well exceeding demand. . . . .
And from what I've seen, anything which requires the VR R&D mats is often listed cheaper on the exchange than the sum of the cost of its materials, again due to supply exceeding demand.
For the parts and upgrades, you need to adjust the cost for the chance of getting 3 parts or 2 upgrades.
Salvaged Tech will still only be up in Elite for you Hoity-Toity types so you can maintain an advantage over the hoi-polloi.
I don't gain anything from having that advantage. The one elite I run is BHE, which I geared up for using Nukara marks from ANRN and marks/elite marks from the Voth ground battlezone (and tons of EC for kit modules); no need to STF without being prepared for it.
you can R+D Assistance doff assignment at the academy for a 48 hour mission with a day+ cooldown to get a chance of purple materials.
Or you can farm enough EC from 1-3 STFs to purchase any of the VR R&D mats; several cost less than the vendor price of a single Mk X/XI/XII common engine/shield/deflector/space weapon.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Consoles only need two elite marks. Your odds of getting two elite marks in 40 turn-ins are good.
Had that happen all of once across five characters in getting reps with elite marks to T5. It's about a 50/50 chance between one or zero from the rep marks over the 20 turn-ins.
The one time I got two was Omega without commendation and Omega gives you 10 BNPs at T5 turn in.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I don't discount it as possible, since people seem to complain about the most dumb things, but:
Advanced being completable by the average PUG means access to Ancient Power Cells, Borg Neural Processors and what-else-you-have in special reputation marks, as well as very rare crafting materials. That means the rewards contains everything that most players are really looking for.
Advanced is the old Elite. Players felt that this and all the desirable rewards that came with it, was "taken away" from them. Give it back, and they might be happy again and leave the Elite difficiculty to the Elite players.
APC's, BNP's, etc., were made accessible outside of having to do advanced missions so, there really is no excuse there.
Same goes for reputation marks, they can be obtained easy enough from even normal if need be so, again no excuse there.
VR crafting materials, well, there are a lot of people who don't even use them and, really never intend to ever or, for some time.
So, really that is the only thing they could possibly be gated from but, they can still obtain them via C-store & exchange or, actually put in the effort overall by upping their game and, get them the old fashion way.
But, that requires some thought and work from them so, heaven forbid that should be required!
Hrmm, since I usually only post the successful runs and stuff - and - since I just had a ISA fail on the first Trans 3:06 minutes into the run, I'd figure I'd take a look at happened there, eh?
Player A) 15885
Player 12895
Player C) 6027
Player D) 4371
Player E) 1733
Would be the first thing folks would probably look at and say it was cause of Player D and Player E, eh? They weren't carrying their weight and all? Thing is though, Player A and Player B were bringing more than enough to cover even Player E.
So what happened? Only Player A and Player B were actually firing on the Transformer for any significant amount of damage. Player C did ~38k damage to it and Player D did ~51k damage to it. Player E didn't even fire at it.
Player C decided to engage one of the Spheres at the Transformer instead of the Transformer. Player D decided to help Player C out. Player E was off fighting the Gateway until the Nanites/Spheres came through and then had to run away from those.
So with the change...it's to allow Player C, D, and E to learn to shoot the Transformer after the Generators go down? Hrmm, so it's not a case that in Normal that one shoots at the Transformer after the Generators go down? You know...like...there's not actually anything new to learn in Advanced than what was learned in Normal? Difference is dong a bit more damage and taking a bit more damage...doing the same thing that was done in Normal...hrmmm.
Could either Player A or Player B said something to the other players so it would have avoided the failure in noticing that they weren't firing on the Transformer? Meh, probably - but - I was hunting for a fail personally, even switched out the GW for the Tyken's so I couldn't toss that out if somebody prematurely popped a Gen before the group was ready. Nah, it was a trip - this group basically did a version of 10%...looked good, the four Gens were taken down by the four players over there (remember, Player E was firing weapons every now and again at the Gateway)...and things were looking great even with Player E. But er...what happened? How did we go from that precision work on the Generators to having only two guys laying into the Transformer like that while the other two decided to engage the Spheres? Nobody died - nobody came close to dying - everybody (but Player E) was right there and enjoying the mix of AoE heals being dropped out. Player B was tanking most of it and Player A was healing most of it...combined they took 73% of the attacks and did 84% of the healing.
And that run is kind of the problem with the proposed changes they're talking about...
There was plenty of damage.
There was plenty of tanking.
There was plenty of healing.
There was more than enough damage that nobody would have had to drop out a GW if Player C and Player D had just fired on the Transformer instead of the Spheres...even with Player E off reading poetry to the Gateway or whatever they were doing over there.
It failing had nothing to do with it being Advanced. It failing had nothing to do with builds not being up to par, piloting being up to par, nor the guy that was basically leeching there (he wasn't AFK, he was just kind of flying around like he'd had a bit too much Romulan Ale).
The only reason it failed was because of knowledge. Knowledge that doesn't need to be gained from running Advanced. It's the same thing whether you run Normal or Advanced.
People don't need to have high DPS to do ISA. Hell, the four folks over at the Trans would have dropped it before the Nanites got there if all had just been firing at it. That's not high DPS going on there by a long shot.
Which got me thinking overall about it, outside of an Objective being Optional in Normal and Mandatory in Advanced...what exactly is there to learn in Advanced? Cause if it's the same stuff one would learn in Normal...well...you know?
So I'm left to wonder, just what this change is going to accomplish other than allow folks like Player E to earn E-Marks off the back of other players while forcing those other players to eat reduced rewards themselves.
The failure was caused by chasing butterflies...which isn't something one has to run Advanced to learn not to do. /shrug
But yeah, folks can keep on about it being a learning experience and that oodles of DPS is needed... /shrug
I cannont answer that quastion for you. I just saw the results in lack of particepation in endgame PvE queues the last 6 months. Something that was quiet different b4 DR.
I really think advanced fail criteria may have something to do with it. The next 6 moths will juge me right or wrong on that.
Yes and, IMO it was something that was needed, as it showed exactly how bad so many player's truly are and, showed also how little interest good player's had in teaming up with the bad ones!
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
I'm asking honestly here because I'm pretty sure it was access to very rare crafting materials and effective upgrades that inspired this change.
Does it really matter, because unless they plan on using them for some reason, crafting mats aren't needed for anything really, in regards to being able to complete an advanced mission!
It's really just there, for those looking to make their own stuff and, mainly for entertainment.
Otherwise, the traits can be had, without ever setting foot in ANY mission at all, just a quick daily click taking 5secs.!
But don't you get it? This isn't beating the challenge. This is Cryptic looking at some of their playerbase and saying they're too pathetic to do this. It's freaking insulting to those players. Yet those players are cheering them on as if what Cryptic is doing is a good thing? While usually bashing the players that have been trying to provide helpful information on the queues, piloting, builds, and all the rest which would allow that player to beat the challenge?
* * * * *
And for the teaching folks, giving them an opportunity to learn, as has been brought up elsewhere in the thread (don't want to eat a 120s cd for a second post)...what is the difference between a Mandatory Objective and an Optional Objective going to provide them?
They either didn't do enough DPS, work together, etc...yeah? Well, no - cause that's the same problem with either of them. It being Optional doesn't teach them a thing that it being Mandatory didn't. The changes they'd need to make for the Optional would be the same they'd need to make for Advanced...and neither of them requires being in that particular content to do it.
All this is doing is nerfing rewards...slowing down the average time spent in an Average...and providing a means for folks to get carried if folks decide to stick around to carry them.
Dude there is still room in them if you read their post to get optionals done and a few other rewards with it (more marks and likely more resources and dilithium). The Autofail option was extremely poor game design you do not punish people if they TRIBBLE up and give them a slap in the face and lock them out for extended periods of time you let them continue to play the content to figure it out instead of booting them out and making them get back in line and try to remember what they screwed up half an hour or whatever before.
It should never have been added .. the only use it had was as a griefing mechanic. The person who thought of this autofail option should have taken a few seminars to refresh their knowledge.
The only difference is that even if people mess up they can still continue on and have some fun and maybe figure out the instance because normal difficulty as I have watched with my own two eyes in the cc event that just ended was not a way to learn advanced mode. In fact normal q's taught people bad habits which they then tried to replicate in advanced q's resulting in the most epic fails I have ever seen in those instances. It was not fun as the person who actually did not TRIBBLE it up to be locked out for half an hour 3 times in a row because of people who hadn't figured out the instance yet.
You can't progress through content if you are not given the oppotunity to work on the problem but rather booted out with a giant pop up in front of your face. People wont learn that way and certainly made playing pugs very difficult when the content was pretty much designed for people who had little time and wanted to do something quick before bed or something and pug an stf or two.
The entire concept was wierd and a shining example of exactly how NOT to encourage participation.
Dude there is still room in them if you read their post to get optionals done and a few other rewards with it (more marks and likely more resources and dilithium). The Autofail option was extremely poor game design you do not punish people if they TRIBBLE up and give them a slap in the face and lock them out for extended periods of time you let them continue to play the content to figure it out instead of booting them out and making them get back in line and try to remember what they screwed up half an hour or whatever before.
It should never have been added .. the only use it had was as a griefing mechanic. The person who thought of this autofail option should have taken a few seminars to refresh their knowledge.
The only difference is that even if people mess up they can still continue on and have some fun and maybe figure out the instance because normal difficulty as I have watched with my own two eyes in the cc event that just ended was not a way to learn advanced mode. In fact normal q's taught people bad habits which they then tried to replicate in advanced q's resulting in the most epic fails I have ever seen in those instances. It was not fun as the person who actually did not TRIBBLE it up to be locked out for half an hour 3 times in a row because of people who hadn't figured out the instance yet.
You can't progress through content if you are not given the oppotunity to work on the problem but rather booted out with a giant pop up in front of your face. People wont learn that way and certainly made playing pugs very difficult when the content was pretty much designed for people who had little time and wanted to do something quick before bed or something and pug an stf or two.
The entire concept was wierd and a shining example of exactly how NOT to encourage participation.
My first MMORPG had quite a few missions, that involved auto fails regarding missions and raids!
You know what?
The vast majority of that games player base, actually learned to do them and, had very little issue with that system not working to get people to work hard to succeed.
This game, lol, not even close.
As the majority here, deem it asking too much of them to actually work hard to succeed.
Too much for them to learn anything on their own or, take advise when it is freely offered.
No, on this game, it's a bunch of lazy butts asking the Dev's, to change the game to suite this huge trend!
Dude there is still room in them if you read their post to get optionals done and a few other rewards with it (more marks and likely more resources and dilithium). The Autofail option was extremely poor game design you do not punish people if they TRIBBLE up and give them a slap in the face and lock them out for extended periods of time you let them continue to play the content to figure it out instead of booting them out and making them get back in line and try to remember what they screwed up half an hour or whatever before.
There is nothing new to be learned there. Literally, what's new compared to Normal? Nothing, right? So the lesson can be learned in Normal, yeah? No booting...the opportunity to review and learn...right there. Wham, bam, what folks are asking for in regarding a place to learn...already exists.
So the complaint is empty. What's being asked for in regard to that...already exists.
And guess what? If folks actually did that...then what would happen in Advanced? Folks would actually be able to earn those better rewards, no? But if Advanced is turned into Normal...tada...there go the rewards. So all the folks that maybe took that time to learn...you know...in Normal...get punished for these folks that don't want to learn in Normal but want to learn in Advanced?
It should never have been added .. the only use it had was as a griefing mechanic. The person who thought of this autofail option should have taken a few seminars to refresh their knowledge.
It provides a quick out from a group so one can go do other stuff without having to eat a leaver penalty when folks that never bothered with Normal or to learn what was needed before showing up or even those expecting to leech showed up. Failing 3 minutes in, having to wait 30 minutes to run it again, but being able to go do something else beats eating a 60 minute leaver penalty.
The only difference is that even if people mess up they can still continue on and have some fun and maybe figure out the instance because normal difficulty as I have watched with my own two eyes in the cc event that just ended was not a way to learn advanced mode. In fact normal q's taught people bad habits which they then tried to replicate in advanced q's resulting in the most epic fails I have ever seen in those instances. It was not fun as the person who actually did not TRIBBLE it up to be locked out for half an hour 3 times in a row because of people who hadn't figured out the instance yet.
Normal doesn't teach bad habits. You're in a ship facing enemies at a certain level. If you move up another level, expect the enemies to be more difficult - harder to kill and to do more damage. Can't blame the content for people not thinking.
You can't progress through content if you are not given the oppotunity to work on the problem but rather booted out with a giant pop up in front of your face. People wont learn that way and certainly made playing pugs very difficult when the content was pretty much designed for people who had little time and wanted to do something quick before bed or something and pug an stf or two.
So basically, and I'd agree, it was Cryptic's fault for spoiling people rotten with just how brutally easy content had become. But wait, Advanced is barely more difficult than Elite was...so what's the problem?
The entire concept was wierd and a shining example of exactly how NOT to encourage participation.
By providing a Normal level that taught everything one needed to know?
By providing multiple ways that one could get better gear and ways one could improve their play before hitting up Advanced?
Yeah, folks need to stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror.
Had that happen all of once across five characters in getting reps with elite marks to T5. It's about a 50/50 chance between one or zero from the rep marks over the 20 turn-ins.
But it's 40.
It's only 20 for an alt. And then only if you've have an account bank. And then only once you've gone through the 40 on one character. And you get 5 voth implants and 10 processors out of the four reps that even use elite marks. And even without that you can just head to one of the non-STF sources for elite marks. Or you could put together a decent build without relying on the reputation system.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
There is nothing new to be learned there. Literally, what's new compared to Normal? Nothing, right? So the lesson can be learned in Normal, yeah? No booting...the opportunity to review and learn...right there. Wham, bam, what folks are asking for in regarding a place to learn...already exists.
So the complaint is empty. What's being asked for in regard to that...already exists.
And guess what? If folks actually did that...then what would happen in Advanced? Folks would actually be able to earn those better rewards, no? But if Advanced is turned into Normal...tada...there go the rewards. So all the folks that maybe took that time to learn...you know...in Normal...get punished for these folks that don't want to learn in Normal but want to learn in Advanced?
How can anybody defend that with a straight face?
I know you and I don't see eye to eye on this one but I guess I'll try one more time.
Normal should be where you learn... and like everything learned what comes after should be based on what you learned earlier. In this case Normal should be where you learn the systems put in place and where you learn your own weaknesses.
They addressed this by making Advanced like normals... where exactly what you learned in normal.. .exactly... is what you bring with you to Advanced.
So basically Advanced should be harder then normal not in completion requirements... but in regards to the difficulty and number of the NPC mobs that are coming at you.
Basically what I'm saying here is... you learn the SYSTEM in normal... but you need to learn your BUILD and EQUIPEMENT in order to complete Advanced... and you need to learn COMMUNICATION in order to complete Elite...
So the issue I say previously with your numbers isn't that Advanced is any easier... it's the same as it was before... people don't know the system...
This isn't a problem with Advanced just being a harder version of Normal... it has to do with the reward system in place now...
Again it falls back on those BNPs... Advanced Queues are the easiest way to get BNPs... and the most promulgated by Cryptic... so people do them...
Hell I'm not totally conviced that the idiot Person E in your above wasn't a troll just trying to blow the quest.
But it boils down to this... there is no incentive to do Normals... none... so people pop into Advanced.. like they always have... hoping for someone to carry them through... because their lazy...
I think you, I, and Shadow all agree on this.
But fixing the issue where Normal can now be used as a true gateway to advanced is a great start... and the best place to start... now they have to work on incentive.
Yeah, folks need to stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror.
this is just insulting and rude just so you know
the rest.. I like to pug and I am a very good player. I find it unfun to end up in a group where one guy makes a mistake and the entire group fails and I have to get back inline again after a half hour penalty.
no normals do not teach the right things people blow through them in overpowered ships and then end up TRIBBLE up the advanced not realizing. however the worste problem is the fact its a 100% fullproof griefing tool.
You need to reward people for things like flawless runs and stuff. You dont punish people by slapping em in the face and booting them out of the instance causing them to well no longer be engaged.
I fail to see why abusing players who make mistakes or whatever helps people have a better game? After what I saw in the CC event recently? Why is it my fault the others in the group didnt know to run away ? Why did I have to spent 2 hours waiting in lines to play less then 3 mintues of content because of it?
the rest.. I like to pug and I am a very good player. I find it unfun to end up in a group where one guy makes a mistake and the entire group fails and I have to get back inline again after a half hour penalty.
no normals do not teach the right things people blow through them in overpowered ships and then end up TRIBBLE up the advanced not realizing. however the worste problem is the fact its a 100% fullproof griefing tool.
You need to reward people for things like flawless runs and stuff. You dont punish people by slapping em in the face and booting them out of the instance causing them to well no longer be engaged.
I fail to see why abusing players who make mistakes or whatever helps people have a better game? After what I saw in the CC event recently? Why is it my fault the others in the group didnt know to run away ? Why did I have to spent 2 hours waiting in lines to play less then 3 mintues of content because of it?
But he's kind of right too.
A lot of the game experience is the growth factor. Basically getting stronger in game.
It's been done since the 1st edition D&D, with experience points... and has been done in almost every computer RPG out there since it's inception.
But it's not just about the growth of your character... it's about your own personal growth in game... as you learn the game... learn it's mechanics... and learn how to get better in the game...
It's a sense of achievement when you can polish your build and learn the game and it's mechanics to beat a boss fight, learning how to beat the odds.
It's why beating Mike Tyson in his video game is still to this day concidered a major achievement.
But as the years have gone on... people have grown more and more entitled... feeling that they are entitled to that feeling of achievement... even if it's unwarrented. It's why many RPGs are so much easier today when you compare them to the RPGs of the 1980s.
It's why there's a growing hardcore movement within game developers... let alone players.
So many people today are quick to say "it's too hard make it easier" and point fingers at the game developers... at the dps community... at pvpers... when really the issue lies in your own... for lack of better word... incompetance when it comes to the game.
So while it may be insulting it's true. Nothing in STO is unbeatable... nothing. But so many people don't want to take the time and effort to learn and improve themselves that they'd rather demand nerfs and fixes so they can feel that sense of achievement even when it's unwarrented.
So instead of pointing a finger at someone else saying... you need to remember... every time you point a finger at someone else... four are pointing back at you.
Now the question that most of us are saying is... HOW do you fix it.
Comments
It's funny that you seem to be the one calling folks the dirty, filthy, uneducated scrubs...imho. Well, it's also kind of sad...really sad.
So if it were a case of somebody coming along to let folks know that if they were to average 100 Weapon Power instead of 50 Weapon Power...that it would double their DPS...them sharing info like that is them calling those folks that might not have known that dirty, filthy, uneducated scrubs? Suggesting that they engage closer to 5km than <10km with their beams because they'll eat 20% less of a range penalty would probably be the same thing, yeah? Suggesting using Evasive to move between engagements, maybe switching to the Speed preset and back again, using an Engine Battery, etc to cut down on dead time...would probably also be insulting, yeah?
Cause like I said, this is the STO forums...TRIBBLE reality...trying to help folks is a cardinal sin and those folks must be punished! How dare they????
And folks keep talking about the folks that were enjoying Advanced to TRIBBLE off and go somewhere else? Seriously? Lol...I don't know what's funnier/sadder, them saying that or them being clueless about there not being the Elite versions of the content that they're trying to send those folks. There's no ANRE, ISE, CSE, KSE, CCE for them to go to...
...it's just so completely laughable that it hurts.
And...they can't do that...because? Nobody's putting any roadblocks in outside of the players complaining about the roadblocks. None of the content requires any of the gear from the content.
It's simple logic. If X rewards Y, then X can't require Y. You could never get Y from X if you needed Y to do X in the first place.
Is there an equally quick way to get very rare crafting materials?
I'm asking honestly here because I'm pretty sure it was access to very rare crafting materials and effective upgrades that inspired this change.
Considering some consider the chance in the daily rep box of getting BNPs and the like to be sufficient for outfitting someone with rep gear you can R+D Assistance doff assignment at the academy for a 48 hour mission with a day+ cooldown to get a chance of purple materials.
Okay thank you.
I believe I like the progression path being laid out by the current changes better.
I really think advanced fail criteria may have something to do with it. The next 6 moths will juge me right or wrong on that.
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I managed the optional with a 3, 2, 2, 2, 5. Got the 5 with about 1 second to spare.
But there is a long lag of no birds after the 4th, and if you get several 1's there's no way. This was an optimal pug group btw.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
On one side, there are players who genuinely enjoy the difficulties in successfully finishing an Advanced/Elite queue. I've only started to tip-toe myself into Advanced queues, and I only PUG. I've been through a whole lot of failed attempts, but I've made it a point to try to learn what went wrong, what I could have done better and adapted my build and playstyle through reading lots of threads here in these forums, Reddit, STO Academy and the wikis. I enjoyed the process and I always feel good whenever my PUG is successful in an advanced queue. In some ways, making Advanced easier will take away from that feeling of accomplishment, of actually having to think on your toes, adapt or change strategy midway just to complete a mission.
On the other hand, it's tough for any newbie to build-up on gear to be able to move forward to higher difficulties. I'm pretty patient in how I play, I only have 1 character, and I'm focusing my efforts to a single ship. So for a while, I used the freebie Solanae set and a combination of weapon drops and cheap exchange gear to get through normal queues. That let me max all of my rep levels and helped me gain those much-needed crafting materials to get the rep gear I need. And I only took what I needed, and that's why I have a surplus of BNPs even if I did not join any advanced STF, and I was able to get those APCs through ground missions. So it took a few months, but I got all the rep gear I needed, and now I am able to join and contribute in advanced STFs. I am currently in-between difficulties, where normal can be too easy, while advanced can still be a challenge.
The thing is, not every player will have that patience in approaching this game. I came from much grindier games than this, so I find the progression vs effort in this game to be fulfilling enough. I am sure a lot of players here play casually. In fact, they could very well be the majority of the base. Even for casual players though, there will always be an urge to find a sense of fulfillment, and in this game, that usually comes from succeeding in higher difficulty levels. For many people, a game is only fun when they are winning. The fact that post DR, we've got empty queues probably shows that players aren't having fun in them at all.
So maybe it's a good thing Cryptic is moving the difficulty bar and making it more accessible to the player base. Even if it won't be as challenging for seasoned players, or as fulfilling to complete for the average player, if it fills the queues and it keeps players coming back for more, than it's still a win-win for everyone IMO. I think we should give this change a chance and see where it brings us. Hopefully it's somewhere good.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Thing is, in following the prices of the VR R&D mats on the Exchange - well, here - let's look at what they currently show at...er...or not, lol, I can't log in. /facepalm
But it is a good question, regarding those. Where I was going to go with that is how saturated the market is and how cheap they are at this point. Oh wait, finally got in.
Dentarium: 15,500 EC
Trellium-K: 9,196 EC
Argonite Gas: 200,000 EC
Craylon Gas: 19,979 EC
Plekton: 88,889 EC
Radiogenic Particle: 99,999 EC
So Argonite, Radiogenic, and Plekton are on the pricey side there by comparison.
Radiogenic...available from CCA...what many would consider the easiest of queues, eh? Still pricey, yeah? Points to what it's likely used for, right?
Well, let's look at the R&D items that require various VR Materials.
First the Components (yeah, it's not the Components, but I'll start there to get them out of the way)...
Isolinear Circuitry (Beam, Cannon, Ground): 1x Dentarium
Isolinear Chip(Beam, Cannon): 1x Argonite, 1x Plekton
Warp Field Regulator (Engineering, Projectile): 1x Radiogenic
Intermix Chamber (Engineering, Projectile): 1x Radiogenic, 1x Dentarium
Particle Alignment Matrix (Ground): 1x Craylon, 1x Trellium-K
Emitter Array (Science, Shields): 1x Craylon
Signal Enhancement Module (Science, Shields): 1x Plekton, 1x Argonite
Experimental/Superior Beam Upgrade: 1x Radiogenic
Experimental/Superior Cannon Upgrade: 1x Craylon
Experimental/Superior Engineering Upgrade: 1x Trellium-K
Experimental/Superior Ground Upgrade: 1x Plekton
Experimental/Superior Projectile Upgrade: 1x Argonite
Experimental/Superior Science Upgrade: 1x Dentarium
Experimental/Superior Shields Upgrade: 1x Argonite
So if we also look at how many things each is required for there...
Argonite: 8
Craylon: 5
Dentarium: 7
Plekton: 6
Radiogenic: 6
Trellium-K: 3
...and prices will start to come together.
Even though Radiogenic is likely the easiest to get, just being attached to the Beam Upgrades is going to put it out there for the demand purposes, eh?
Argonite being required for the most items, including those OD Arrays, Wide DHCs, Exotic Particle Sci Consoles, as well as for both Projectile and Shield Upgrades...yeah, that's going to drive up the price when you also factor in the availability of it.
Same would go to an extent for Plekton, eh? OD Arrays, Wide DHCs, and Exotic Sci Consoles in that regard...mixed in with the availability of it.
Which, imho, kind of points to poor balancing on the combination of use and availability of the mats, eh?
Imagine if the mats were spread out a bit more - the availability mixed up a bit more...so the supply demand were a bit more balanced, yeah? If things had a little more equal value sort of thing, right?
Heck though, let's look at those STU prices, eh?
Beam: 180,000 EC
Cannon: 190,000 EC
Engineering: 150,000 EC
Ground: 190,000 EC
Projectile: 260,000 EC
Science: 150,000 EC
Shields: 289,890 EC
Lol, damn, look at those Projectile and Shields STUs...sheesh. Yep, Argonite...pesky Argonite. One of those imagine if its value were dropped and Trellium-K's increased by changing up the supply and demand for them, yeah?
But yeah...Argonite...Azure Nebula Rescue Advanced as the first one they're testing the changes with...go figure, eh?
Personally, just between EC gain from DOFFing and running whatever I'm running while also playing the RNG game (can be brutal, can be awesome, tends to be brutal) with the R&D Assistance...much like all the other rewards, I long ago stopped looking to the queues to get them. That would be setting myself up for all sorts of frustration otherwise...
See, I haven't seen that change. Course, I've got no clue about Ground. But the Space queues that are "dead" now were pretty much the Space queues that were "dead" before DR. That some new queues were added which were close to what those "dead" queues were should come as no surprise of them being "dead" as well.
Azure (Advanced) is new, so no comparison can be made.
Disconnected is new, so no comparison can be made.
Crystalline is as bumping as it ever was.
Hive is as dead as it ever was.
Infected is as bumping as it ever was.
Khitomer is moving along just like it ever was.
Storming is as dead as it ever was.
Korfez is new, so no comparison can be made.
Breach is as dead as it ever was.
Cure is moving along just like it ever was.
Undine is as dead as it ever was.
Viscous is as dead as it ever was.
That DR changed things, imho, is pure imagination....well, no - right there at launch? Hell yeah it changed things. But that was corrected by November and things are pretty much right back where they were before DR.
But again, like I said, I've got no idea how it affected Ground queues in the least...never looked at them before and haven't looked at them since.
edit: Have to wonder if I'm forgetting some stuff there that might have happened with S9.5...
I think there's some of this going on.
There's the perception (right or wrong) that Advanced queues require better gear to complete the optionals.
You get better gear through doing Reps or thru Crafting/Upgrades. The (arguably) best Rep gear requires special components that you normally only get by doing Advanced. Crafting the best stuff requires special materials that you normally only get by doing Advanced.
So one could easily understand the perception that people were being locked out of getting better gear. Even though that was never entirely true.
I'm not real worried about getting better gear and staying away from Advanced didn't bother me, so the change doesn't affect me a lot either way. This change (if it spreads to other queues) means I may try it, because I'm going to start Crafting more heavily and can use the mats.
But really? They could have just as easily left Advanced's mandatory objectives alone, increased the rewards, and then just add a chance to get the special drops in Normal.
Run Normal -- You might not get the mats drop you want. But you might.
Run Advanced -- You're guaranteed to get the mats drop and better rewards besides.
That right there would keep me happily running Normals, and likely have increased the number of people queuing for Normals and kept them out of the Advanced queues (for people who want a challenge).
The big difference is in what queues Cryptic wanted to improve participation for. The way they're doing it favors the Advanced queues. IMO, I think they should have weighted things toward the Normal queues to encourage people to learn the missions before attempting Advanced.
But what do I know? I'm not the target audience for the queues anyway. Or am I?
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Well, Geko said right off the back that Advanced itself might require better gear or better skill, yeah? So to an extent, it gets into what is that better gear?
For certain gear, could that include mission replay to get the Jem'Hadar, Breen, Solanae, or Kobali sets? Those would be a potential upgrade over random mission loot or non-set pieces some folks might be running, eh? Mission replay for weapons? Consoles? All sorts of things where "investment" might just mean time for mission replay rather than "Dil" or the like, possibly?
There are several folks out there that have done various guides for "freebie" gear for hitting up Advanced content so folks will have things that should provide them more than they need...leaning toward the other better gear getting more into hitting up Elite, eh?
Just gets into that discussion of what's "better" gear, yeah? Personally, I think Crytpic's (tinfoil hat time) stacked the deck against folks with some underlying mechanics. Like I mentioned earlier about the difference between averaging 100 Weapon Power vs. 50...one would be hard pressed to find gearing that's going to provide the boost that does. So folks could literally throw money at Cryptic and never see the benefit they would have by tweaking something like that - adjusting the distance they attack at - how they travel between engagements...cause those non-gear things can totally butcher anything somebody else is doing. It's part of why those extreme DPS folks are doing that extreme DPS while mere mortals aren't touching it...cause of how much a difference the non-gear stuff can mean and how tossing gear at things just won't fix that.
With the mats, I just see that as a flawed system like I pointed out above...the supply/demand angle that they've created is causing all sorts of issues and the possibility for one VR mat to be near 300k EC and another not even worth 10k EC.
To me, and kind of like I've complained elsewhere, heh, it's not the avenue of approach I'd have gone. I'd have gone with the more progressive - get more folks to think about hitting up Normal, reward them for doing so. Get them feeling better about the queues and themselves, their capabilities...then ease them into the next step if they wanted to take it...and the next step after that if they wanted to do so.
Instead...well...they're trying to get them into Advanced where even without the Mandatory Objectives, folks are still going to get yelled at over Optional Objectives, and have that sour experience, imho.
There are better methods for farming up EC, but worst case would be to run normals and need roll on everything. Outside of the occasional upgrade manual, only vendor trash drops, and since everyone needs EC, Need = Greed. They might as well go ahead and remove the Greed option, and just make it Need/Pass.
And from what I've seen, anything which requires the VR R&D mats is often listed cheaper on the exchange than the sum of the cost of its materials, again due to supply exceeding demand.
Exactly. You've nailed what keeps me out of the queues for the most part.
Hard to complete? Good chance of team wipe, multiple respawns, or missed objectives? Fail w/o rewards? TRIBBLE over other players because I don't know what I'm doing?
Why would I bother?
Heck, I'd never even tried Normal CC until they came up with the event and gave it a reward even I couldn't resist.
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I might even go so far as to guarantee the R&D mat in normals, and increase it in higher difficulties. That can only increase the supply of the materials, decreasing their cost and the cost of any crafted items which require them.
Cheaper manuals would contribute to increased manual application, making upgrades a more effective dil sink. Then maybe they could drop the ridiculous cost for upgrading rarity at Mk XIV, for a net breakeven, at the benefit of an improvement in player participation and player morale.
Cryptic's target audience may be one of STO's biggest mysteries.
For the parts and upgrades, you need to adjust the cost for the chance of getting 3 parts or 2 upgrades.
Not at all. What I fear is an advanced PUG queue where it feels like I'm the only one even aware the objectives and optional objectives exist.
Which was my experience of the pre-DR queues; well, the pre-LoR queues, at any rate.
I don't gain anything from having that advantage. The one elite I run is BHE, which I geared up for using Nukara marks from ANRN and marks/elite marks from the Voth ground battlezone (and tons of EC for kit modules); no need to STF without being prepared for it.
It's sufficient for getting the one console each rep offers.
Consoles only need two elite marks. Your odds of getting two elite marks in 40 turn-ins are good.
Or you can farm enough EC from 1-3 STFs to purchase any of the VR R&D mats; several cost less than the vendor price of a single Mk X/XI/XII common engine/shield/deflector/space weapon.
It's not so much difficult as it is purposefully unclear. Prodding to buy zen to convert to dilithium or EC, and all that.
Had that happen all of once across five characters in getting reps with elite marks to T5. It's about a 50/50 chance between one or zero from the rep marks over the 20 turn-ins.
The one time I got two was Omega without commendation and Omega gives you 10 BNPs at T5 turn in.
APC's, BNP's, etc., were made accessible outside of having to do advanced missions so, there really is no excuse there.
Same goes for reputation marks, they can be obtained easy enough from even normal if need be so, again no excuse there.
VR crafting materials, well, there are a lot of people who don't even use them and, really never intend to ever or, for some time.
So, really that is the only thing they could possibly be gated from but, they can still obtain them via C-store & exchange or, actually put in the effort overall by upping their game and, get them the old fashion way.
But, that requires some thought and work from them so, heaven forbid that should be required!
Play normal and, be less concerned how actual skilled player's can be competent enough, to actually succeed in advanced.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Player A) 15885
Player
Player C) 6027
Player D) 4371
Player E) 1733
Would be the first thing folks would probably look at and say it was cause of Player D and Player E, eh? They weren't carrying their weight and all? Thing is though, Player A and Player B were bringing more than enough to cover even Player E.
So what happened? Only Player A and Player B were actually firing on the Transformer for any significant amount of damage. Player C did ~38k damage to it and Player D did ~51k damage to it. Player E didn't even fire at it.
Player C decided to engage one of the Spheres at the Transformer instead of the Transformer. Player D decided to help Player C out. Player E was off fighting the Gateway until the Nanites/Spheres came through and then had to run away from those.
So with the change...it's to allow Player C, D, and E to learn to shoot the Transformer after the Generators go down? Hrmm, so it's not a case that in Normal that one shoots at the Transformer after the Generators go down? You know...like...there's not actually anything new to learn in Advanced than what was learned in Normal? Difference is dong a bit more damage and taking a bit more damage...doing the same thing that was done in Normal...hrmmm.
Could either Player A or Player B said something to the other players so it would have avoided the failure in noticing that they weren't firing on the Transformer? Meh, probably - but - I was hunting for a fail personally, even switched out the GW for the Tyken's so I couldn't toss that out if somebody prematurely popped a Gen before the group was ready. Nah, it was a trip - this group basically did a version of 10%...looked good, the four Gens were taken down by the four players over there (remember, Player E was firing weapons every now and again at the Gateway)...and things were looking great even with Player E. But er...what happened? How did we go from that precision work on the Generators to having only two guys laying into the Transformer like that while the other two decided to engage the Spheres? Nobody died - nobody came close to dying - everybody (but Player E) was right there and enjoying the mix of AoE heals being dropped out. Player B was tanking most of it and Player A was healing most of it...combined they took 73% of the attacks and did 84% of the healing.
And that run is kind of the problem with the proposed changes they're talking about...
There was plenty of damage.
There was plenty of tanking.
There was plenty of healing.
There was more than enough damage that nobody would have had to drop out a GW if Player C and Player D had just fired on the Transformer instead of the Spheres...even with Player E off reading poetry to the Gateway or whatever they were doing over there.
It failing had nothing to do with it being Advanced. It failing had nothing to do with builds not being up to par, piloting being up to par, nor the guy that was basically leeching there (he wasn't AFK, he was just kind of flying around like he'd had a bit too much Romulan Ale).
The only reason it failed was because of knowledge. Knowledge that doesn't need to be gained from running Advanced. It's the same thing whether you run Normal or Advanced.
People don't need to have high DPS to do ISA. Hell, the four folks over at the Trans would have dropped it before the Nanites got there if all had just been firing at it. That's not high DPS going on there by a long shot.
Which got me thinking overall about it, outside of an Objective being Optional in Normal and Mandatory in Advanced...what exactly is there to learn in Advanced? Cause if it's the same stuff one would learn in Normal...well...you know?
So I'm left to wonder, just what this change is going to accomplish other than allow folks like Player E to earn E-Marks off the back of other players while forcing those other players to eat reduced rewards themselves.
The failure was caused by chasing butterflies...which isn't something one has to run Advanced to learn not to do. /shrug
But yeah, folks can keep on about it being a learning experience and that oodles of DPS is needed... /shrug
Yes and, IMO it was something that was needed, as it showed exactly how bad so many player's truly are and, showed also how little interest good player's had in teaming up with the bad ones!
Does it really matter, because unless they plan on using them for some reason, crafting mats aren't needed for anything really, in regards to being able to complete an advanced mission!
It's really just there, for those looking to make their own stuff and, mainly for entertainment.
Otherwise, the traits can be had, without ever setting foot in ANY mission at all, just a quick daily click taking 5secs.!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Dude there is still room in them if you read their post to get optionals done and a few other rewards with it (more marks and likely more resources and dilithium). The Autofail option was extremely poor game design you do not punish people if they TRIBBLE up and give them a slap in the face and lock them out for extended periods of time you let them continue to play the content to figure it out instead of booting them out and making them get back in line and try to remember what they screwed up half an hour or whatever before.
It should never have been added .. the only use it had was as a griefing mechanic. The person who thought of this autofail option should have taken a few seminars to refresh their knowledge.
The only difference is that even if people mess up they can still continue on and have some fun and maybe figure out the instance because normal difficulty as I have watched with my own two eyes in the cc event that just ended was not a way to learn advanced mode. In fact normal q's taught people bad habits which they then tried to replicate in advanced q's resulting in the most epic fails I have ever seen in those instances. It was not fun as the person who actually did not TRIBBLE it up to be locked out for half an hour 3 times in a row because of people who hadn't figured out the instance yet.
You can't progress through content if you are not given the oppotunity to work on the problem but rather booted out with a giant pop up in front of your face. People wont learn that way and certainly made playing pugs very difficult when the content was pretty much designed for people who had little time and wanted to do something quick before bed or something and pug an stf or two.
The entire concept was wierd and a shining example of exactly how NOT to encourage participation.
My first MMORPG had quite a few missions, that involved auto fails regarding missions and raids!
You know what?
The vast majority of that games player base, actually learned to do them and, had very little issue with that system not working to get people to work hard to succeed.
This game, lol, not even close.
As the majority here, deem it asking too much of them to actually work hard to succeed.
Too much for them to learn anything on their own or, take advise when it is freely offered.
No, on this game, it's a bunch of lazy butts asking the Dev's, to change the game to suite this huge trend!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
There is nothing new to be learned there. Literally, what's new compared to Normal? Nothing, right? So the lesson can be learned in Normal, yeah? No booting...the opportunity to review and learn...right there. Wham, bam, what folks are asking for in regarding a place to learn...already exists.
So the complaint is empty. What's being asked for in regard to that...already exists.
And guess what? If folks actually did that...then what would happen in Advanced? Folks would actually be able to earn those better rewards, no? But if Advanced is turned into Normal...tada...there go the rewards. So all the folks that maybe took that time to learn...you know...in Normal...get punished for these folks that don't want to learn in Normal but want to learn in Advanced?
How can anybody defend that with a straight face?
It provides a quick out from a group so one can go do other stuff without having to eat a leaver penalty when folks that never bothered with Normal or to learn what was needed before showing up or even those expecting to leech showed up. Failing 3 minutes in, having to wait 30 minutes to run it again, but being able to go do something else beats eating a 60 minute leaver penalty.
Normal doesn't teach bad habits. You're in a ship facing enemies at a certain level. If you move up another level, expect the enemies to be more difficult - harder to kill and to do more damage. Can't blame the content for people not thinking.
So basically, and I'd agree, it was Cryptic's fault for spoiling people rotten with just how brutally easy content had become. But wait, Advanced is barely more difficult than Elite was...so what's the problem?
By providing a Normal level that taught everything one needed to know?
By providing multiple ways that one could get better gear and ways one could improve their play before hitting up Advanced?
Yeah, folks need to stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror.
It's only 20 for an alt. And then only if you've have an account bank. And then only once you've gone through the 40 on one character. And you get 5 voth implants and 10 processors out of the four reps that even use elite marks. And even without that you can just head to one of the non-STF sources for elite marks. Or you could put together a decent build without relying on the reputation system.
I know you and I don't see eye to eye on this one but I guess I'll try one more time.
Normal should be where you learn... and like everything learned what comes after should be based on what you learned earlier. In this case Normal should be where you learn the systems put in place and where you learn your own weaknesses.
They addressed this by making Advanced like normals... where exactly what you learned in normal.. .exactly... is what you bring with you to Advanced.
So basically Advanced should be harder then normal not in completion requirements... but in regards to the difficulty and number of the NPC mobs that are coming at you.
Basically what I'm saying here is... you learn the SYSTEM in normal... but you need to learn your BUILD and EQUIPEMENT in order to complete Advanced... and you need to learn COMMUNICATION in order to complete Elite...
So the issue I say previously with your numbers isn't that Advanced is any easier... it's the same as it was before... people don't know the system...
This isn't a problem with Advanced just being a harder version of Normal... it has to do with the reward system in place now...
Again it falls back on those BNPs... Advanced Queues are the easiest way to get BNPs... and the most promulgated by Cryptic... so people do them...
Hell I'm not totally conviced that the idiot Person E in your above wasn't a troll just trying to blow the quest.
But it boils down to this... there is no incentive to do Normals... none... so people pop into Advanced.. like they always have... hoping for someone to carry them through... because their lazy...
I think you, I, and Shadow all agree on this.
But fixing the issue where Normal can now be used as a true gateway to advanced is a great start... and the best place to start... now they have to work on incentive.
this is just insulting and rude just so you know
the rest.. I like to pug and I am a very good player. I find it unfun to end up in a group where one guy makes a mistake and the entire group fails and I have to get back inline again after a half hour penalty.
no normals do not teach the right things people blow through them in overpowered ships and then end up TRIBBLE up the advanced not realizing. however the worste problem is the fact its a 100% fullproof griefing tool.
You need to reward people for things like flawless runs and stuff. You dont punish people by slapping em in the face and booting them out of the instance causing them to well no longer be engaged.
I fail to see why abusing players who make mistakes or whatever helps people have a better game? After what I saw in the CC event recently? Why is it my fault the others in the group didnt know to run away ? Why did I have to spent 2 hours waiting in lines to play less then 3 mintues of content because of it?
But he's kind of right too.
A lot of the game experience is the growth factor. Basically getting stronger in game.
It's been done since the 1st edition D&D, with experience points... and has been done in almost every computer RPG out there since it's inception.
But it's not just about the growth of your character... it's about your own personal growth in game... as you learn the game... learn it's mechanics... and learn how to get better in the game...
It's a sense of achievement when you can polish your build and learn the game and it's mechanics to beat a boss fight, learning how to beat the odds.
It's why beating Mike Tyson in his video game is still to this day concidered a major achievement.
But as the years have gone on... people have grown more and more entitled... feeling that they are entitled to that feeling of achievement... even if it's unwarrented. It's why many RPGs are so much easier today when you compare them to the RPGs of the 1980s.
It's why there's a growing hardcore movement within game developers... let alone players.
So many people today are quick to say "it's too hard make it easier" and point fingers at the game developers... at the dps community... at pvpers... when really the issue lies in your own... for lack of better word... incompetance when it comes to the game.
So while it may be insulting it's true. Nothing in STO is unbeatable... nothing. But so many people don't want to take the time and effort to learn and improve themselves that they'd rather demand nerfs and fixes so they can feel that sense of achievement even when it's unwarrented.
So instead of pointing a finger at someone else saying... you need to remember... every time you point a finger at someone else... four are pointing back at you.
Now the question that most of us are saying is... HOW do you fix it.