The rationality of players wanting advance difficulty nerf in this thread is rewards. Not me.
except when presented with a solution that doesnt' affect your rewards and puts the difficulty back, you whinge about them getting rewards only you were before.
So yes it is what you care about more. So no, I'm not twisting anything. I'm pointing out your exact arguments you made previously.
You don't get to define the thread to your own liking. I disagree. I feel the thread is to find a solution equitable to both sides.
All this is hinged if even the side who wants the nerf is even actually the majority. We wont know the actual figures except we can deduce:
A ) Players who dont do STF
B ) Players who make Normal effort and content doing Normal
C ) Players who are stuck at Normal but refuse to use in game mechanics but demand to be at advance
D ) Players who can do advance and complete advance
E ) Players who can do elite and complete elite
The issue is with player C. This thread is all about that, my argument is about all that.
except when presented with a solution that doesnt' affect your rewards and puts the difficulty back, you whinge about them getting rewards only you were before.
So yes it is what you care about more. So no, I'm not twisting anything. I'm pointing out your exact arguments you made previously.
I can see that you either a fantastic troll or just want to debate without actually going directly to the point.
You should keep going back to your proposal rather than going around circles that each specific word who disagrees you is not a good argument.
It is better that way than you creating senseless arguments and self created words that only mean something to you.
The only thing I can agree with you on, is with the no fail system in place, it eliminates the trolling causing a failure factor but, it also completely eliminates the challenge factor at the same time.
I mean, what's challenging about a mission that cannot be failed?
Nothing, it's just a matter of time is all that is involved, completion thru attrition.
If bro advanced does not challenge one enough give elite a shot, thats why we have this variety. Elite is even much fun to pug when Im on a sci toon (haling abilities) where I have a good chance tending to the mission criticals. If not the outcome highly depends on the other team-mates reducing my team-performance from average to 66% tops (if you take into account that I have an easy time activating a center device as well as one secondary).
As for advanced mode ones ability to challenge oneself will not necessarily lead to a fail now, true, but it will highly diminish reward outcome in form of marks to a point where time is close to wasted. If I choose this subpar setting for myself I do so knowing that I may get a bad group or have to rely criticals to others (Im on my own and not on my sci for brotherhood) or I go deliberately with eg. new players from fleet or those with under geared toons on a quest for marks (hey delta recrut). I still find the battle challenging then under such circumstances, something the normal mode constantly denied simply because of too easy critters.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
If bro advanced does not challenge one enough give elite a shot, thats why we have this variety. Elite is even much fun to pug when Im on a sci toon (haling abilities) where I have a good chance tending to the mission criticals. If not the outcome highly depends on the other team-mates reducing my team-performance from average to 66% tops (if you take into account that I have an easy time activating a center device as well as one secondary).
As for advanced mode ones ability to challenge oneself will not necessarily lead to a fail now, true, but it will highly diminish reward outcome in form of marks to a point where time is close to wasted. If I choose this subpar setting for myself I do so knowing that I may get a bad group or have to rely criticals to others (Im on my own and not on my sci for brotherhood) or I go deliberately with eg. new players from fleet or those with under geared toons on a quest for marks. I still find the battle challenging then under such circumstances, something the normal mode constantly denied simply because of too easy critters.
I do my share of elites for some extra challenge + when I feel like grinding up some mats for exp tech but, not every mission as of yet has an elite so, I do advanced missions for mainly fun factor because nerfing myself down some put more challenge into it, including the chance of failure currently. [except dealing with trolls causing immediate fails]
I never got real enjoyment out of the old elites, as they were too simple to do and not fail and, made them into nothing but a tediously boring time consumer was all.
While they are still somewhat the tedious time consumer, at least now they pose an actual challenge!
Lol in gods name why don't u stick to elite then Mr. E and even bother to play advanced performance police for C?
This thread does not seem to be your topic dude.
Doing Elite does not mean I only do elite. You asked me if I do elite. So I said yes I do elite.
Do all missions have elite?
Its like you or anyone also doing elite and normal. Even though you do normal or elite, you guys belong here but I dont?
Its like all these arguments that came along in this thread, the definition is ever evolving only to fit what they want. From the defintion casual, to the self created vocabulary of self entitlement and now who belongs in this thread. All fits them except those that argue against.
Lol in gods name why don't u stick to elite then Mr. E and even bother to play advanced performance police for C?
This thread does not seem to be your topic dude.
There is a good number of queues that don't have elite difficulty including all old borg missions which seem to be the biggest problem for a lot of players. So just because someone is playing other missions on elite they should stay out of advanced borg missions?
And how is your argument any better than someone saying if you don't have at least 8k DPS stay the hell out of advanced? Pot, kettle, black....
And how is your argument any better than someone saying if you don't have at least 8k DPS stay the hell out of advanced?
I'm sorry there, it was not and you are right.
Its just some peeps belong to normal, some belong to elite. Yet advanced seem to be the playground both groups constantly seem to meet and clash at each other, simply for the reason because they WANT to meaning...
Its like all these arguments that came along in this thread, the definition is ever evolving only to fit what they want.
...probably thousands of players or (if the queue list participation is any indication) hundreds of players with ALL different attitudes and agendas why the think they want to play with one another in advanced, can you imagine?
I do my share of elites for some extra challenge + when I feel like grinding up some mats for exp tech but, not every mission as of yet has an elite so, I do advanced missions for mainly fun factor because nerfing myself down some put more challenge into it, including the chance of failure currently. [except dealing with trolls causing immediate fails]
I never got real enjoyment out of the old elites, as they were too simple to do and not fail and, made them into nothing but a tediously boring time consumer was all.
While they are still somewhat the tedious time consumer, at least now they pose an actual challenge!
Well the only change they made so far is to a map without elite is ANAR, a terribly bad example because this map seems to have a discreet RNG related reward mechanic limiting team performance.
As far as fails in the classic STF are concerned I remain sceptical on multiple fronts if or how changes are implemented especially under consideration that they deliberately left those out for an Elite setting. I can only conclude the lack of time gate and power creep for the space ones to be a reason. Ground seems to have a bit of a time gate due to the terrain to cover. I just hope they wont share the fate of no win.
As for them being challenging for me as individual is concerned the classic STFs reach from easy peasy 2 side probstream holding to almost impossible attempts to free multiple hostages alone in IGA so alls available there.
Remove them or let them stay in advanced? Think the participation in queues will decide whats right or wrong here. In any case challenge can be set pretty good by oneself by the quality of the team you run in but in any case removing them in advanced without a proper elite version to be released would mean we loose something we currently have, yea.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Never said it was strawman nor it was you. It is senseless to argue with your with sidetrack issues. Because if I do there would dozens of pages that I would answer stuff like these.
The topic is about two sides, To sum it up:
1) There are in game mechanics to solve the advance queues problem of the thread
2) Flatly reject ingame mechanics solution and pass the problem to the devs
You apparently belong to #2. So present your solution why #2 solution is better to players who support #1 like myself and several others in this thread.
Instead of actually debating the point I made, you build a strawman fallacy to debate against in an act of cowardice.
Your questioning it is irrelevant and pointless given the context i gave.
When two people or two groups or even multiple points of view are being discussed, argued, debated...it is generally important to have some shared common definitions or at least some understanding of the definition the other party or parties are using. Otherwise, can they not end up potentially in disagreement simply because they are using the same word or words to mean different things, yeah? So with you using one definition to argue against a group of others using a different definition...why would one not want to know what you mean and why you mean that instead of what it means to others?
Hell, gets into the whinge thing. British English vs. American English...could explain quite a few things going on with the various definitions and use of terms.
But trying to get to a common ground...isn't a straw man fallacy. Trying to turn it into a something it isn't...hey, guess what?
Its just some peeps belong to normal, some belong to elite. Yet advanced seem to be the playground both groups constantly seem to meet and clash at each other, simply for the reason because they WANT to meaning...
...probably thousands of players or (if the queue list participation is any indication) hundreds of players with ALL different attitudes and agendas why the think they want to play with one another in advanced, can you imagine?
Well the only change they made so far is to a map without elite is ANAR, a terribly bad example because this map seems to have a discreet RNG related reward mechanic limiting team performance.
As far as fails in the classic STF are concerned I remain sceptical on multiple fronts if or how changes are implemented especially under consideration that they deliberately left those out for an Elite setting. I can only conclude the lack of time gate and power creep for the space ones to be a reason. Ground seems to have a bit of a time gate due to the terrain to cover. I just hope they wont share the fate of no win.
As for them being challenging for me as individual is concerned the classic STFs reach from easy peasy 2 side probstream holding to almost impossible attempts to free multiple hostages alone in IGA so alls available there.
Remove them or let them stay in advanced? Think the participation in queues will decide whats right or wrong here. In any case challenge can be set pretty good by oneself by the quality of the team you run in but in any case removing them in advanced without a proper elite version to be released would mean we loose something we currently have, yea.
Well, the thing is in regards to challenge for myself, is there are times that I jump into a pug group and, I have 2-3 exp players scoring good - huge dps #'s, while I myself have kept my relatively small as to keep the challenge in this dept. for myself.
But, I also get players that cannot pump enough sustained dps, to even match a shuttle/fighter and, when I watch them closely, it's mainly because of their play style and/or build but, than again they could just be trolling!!!
Now, the other side of challenge for myself, is to play a mission that has the possibility of complete and utter failure, despite whether it has any other objective(s) to complete. [like an optional]
This is how I keep myself having fun, doing mostly what is deemed repeatable missions, for the sake of repeating them for X reason, whether that reason be to obtain marks/elite marks/train a fellow fleet member or friend/obtain R&D mats/etc.
They, like any mission run over and over again, become tedious so, I hope for them to still have a failure challenge at least and, than factor what it takes to dwarf myself down enough to add some more challenge, making it actually have some fun factor, to go with my side of tediousness.
Eliminate the failure in general and, than there becomes no point in nerfing myself, because it goes back to just being tedious in general, sapping any form of fun and challenge there could ever possibly be to it.
The fallacy here is, that my recently created DR, is further along apparently than your main(s).
And, it was all free!
So, the excuse of taking you years, is either from time limits for playing and/or, your own inability to further yourself.
Actually, my main is has all but Iconian Rep done. And has alot of things. But it will take me over a year to max out each R&D catagory in total. I probaly have 8 months left to get htem all to 20.
And it has been all from me playing the game. In fact. I have more than one char at 60. And more than one that has full reps, except for Iconian. But I have only one guy with level 15 in every R&D catagory. And he has only one at 20.
My statement is more about having to get a fresh char to max Reps, max R&D, and getting their gear setup correctly. Which takes months, and possibly over a year, to get completely done.
Actually, my main is has all but Iconian Rep done. And has alot of things. But it will take me over a year to max out each R&D catagory in total. I probaly have 8 months left to get htem all to 20.
And it has been all from me playing the game. In fact. I have more than one char at 60. And more than one that has full reps, except for Iconian. But I have only one guy with level 15 in every R&D catagory. And he has only one at 20.
My statement is more about having to get a fresh char to max Reps, max R&D, and getting their gear setup correctly. Which takes months, and possibly over a year, to get completely done.
And, this is different how for anyone in this same boat, making a new toon and/or, just starting to play this game?
Reps are quick, requiring roughly 40days of 20hr projects, made quicker with sponsorship tokens cutting them in half.
R&D will take time doing 20hr xp projects only but, they also can be quickened by refined dilithium payments.
Gear may or, may not take time depending on your playtime available, how deep your pockets are game currency wise, how cheap and economical you want to go, how quickly one can obtain rep gear if this is what you want, if you are in a fleet and, have the opportunity to purchase what you need, etc.
A good majority of gear, can be easily obtained from the exchange, if you are a savvy shopper.
EC's are easily obtainable so, purchasing from the exchange is not an issue, if you know where to go to get them and, what you can sell/flip to earn more.
Worrying about R&D hitting lvl20, isn't really needed, as R&D crafting boosters can be bought fairly cheaply on the exchange.
Never said it was strawman nor it was you. It is senseless to argue with your with sidetrack issues. Because if I do there would dozens of pages that I would answer stuff like these.
The topic is about two sides, To sum it up:
1) There are in game mechanics to solve the advance queues problem of the thread
2) Flatly reject ingame mechanics solution and pass the problem to the devs
You apparently belong to #2. So present your solution why #2 solution is better to players who support #1 like myself and several others in this thread.
I have third side. the ingame mechanics are not good enough to properly deal with the issue. With some options not realistic possibly for every person.
And my only desire has been to remove the timer fails so that it would promote team interactin without having to worry about not having enough time to complete the objectives. I have never said to remove the challange, only that Timers are actually detrimental to getting a PUG to work together as a team. Remove the timers and put other things in place. like things being triggered when X is done, and mybe Y has to be done before X can be done, are all reasonable ways to get challange in the game without having timers.
Looking at the new content, Brotherhood, I like that you have to activate one Iconian pylon to find the other two pylons to turn off. The timers are there to say get it done with in this time or loose out out on extra loot. All things that I like as a set up. But I wished the first one wasn't on a timer so that people could talk amongst themselves to assign out who is doing what. Whit knowing that the next areas will be doing the same general thing, it gets easy to organize and rolling while a timer a going, because all of the intial strategiizing has already occured. End result is that the difficulty is not lost, the rewards are for those that work as a team to reach for it. And single person can't troll the entire group from getting the win.
That is what I want. And the rest of what you have said does nothing to help solve the problem, because the problem exist because of what you want.
And I am really getting to the point that you don't want change. And are really here to fight to keep the game stagnant and the queues reserved for only those people that have the options to create pre-mades to take on the queues.
Accept that not everyone has that option, and not everyone wants to be an economist, and look for solutions that widen the play options, instead of narrowing them, and then we have something to talk and gain together. Untill then, I don't think either of us is ever going to agree on this. I could be wrong, and you might just change your mind, but I don't see that happening.
I have third side. the ingame mechanics are not good enough to properly deal with the issue. With some options not realistic possibly for every person.
And my only desire has been to remove the timer fails so that it would promote team interactin without having to worry about not having enough time to complete the objectives. I have never said to remove the challange, only that Timers are actually detrimental to getting a PUG to work together as a team. Remove the timers and put other things in place. like things being triggered when X is done, and mybe Y has to be done before X can be done, are all reasonable ways to get challange in the game without having timers.
Looking at the new content, Brotherhood, I like that you have to activate one Iconian pylon to find the other two pylons to turn off. The timers are there to say get it done with in this time or loose out out on extra loot. All things that I like as a set up. But I wished the first one wasn't on a timer so that people could talk amongst themselves to assign out who is doing what. Whit knowing that the next areas will be doing the same general thing, it gets easy to organize and rolling while a timer a going, because all of the intial strategiizing has already occured. End result is that the difficulty is not lost, the rewards are for those that work as a team to reach for it. And single person can't troll the entire group from getting the win.
That is what I want. And the rest of what you have said does nothing to help solve the problem, because the problem exist because of what you want.
And I am really getting to the point that you don't want change. And are really here to fight to keep the game stagnant and the queues reserved for only those people that have the options to create pre-mades to take on the queues.
Accept that not everyone has that option, and not everyone wants to be an economist, and look for solutions that widen the play options, instead of narrowing them, and then we have something to talk and gain together. Untill then, I don't think either of us is ever going to agree on this. I could be wrong, and you might just change your mind, but I don't see that happening.
Timer or no timers, everything you just said, is the player's own fault.
There is plenty of time in quite a few missions, to discuss strategy at the very beginning and, even while doing it.
Pretty much every mission, requires you to complete X to move onto Y.
team coordination, is relevant on the players who are playing.
All of which players, decide not to use 99.9% of the time, when Pugging.
Hence, it is the player's fault and, not the game mechanics that are provided!!!
Never said it was strawman nor it was you. It is senseless to argue with your with sidetrack issues. Because if I do there would dozens of pages that I would answer stuff like these.
The topic is about two sides, To sum it up:
1) There are in game mechanics to solve the advance queues problem of the thread
2) Flatly reject ingame mechanics solution and pass the problem to the devs
You apparently belong to #2. So present your solution why #2 solution is better to players who support #1 like myself and several others in this thread.
Your solutions are ridiculous. You consistently offer nothing of value.
Don't PUG is not a solution to problems encountered while PUGging. It does not solve it. It does not fix it. It does not even address it. It avoids it entirely, buries head in sand, and pretends there is nothing there.
Improving one's build and skills to the point where you can solo the queue is far beyond the realm of realism for the vast majority of people. It does not offer an actual solution. It is the same nonsense along the lines of "No bread? Let them eat cake."
So how about this: If queues are dead, lets just remove them all. No private queues, no public queues. Why? It isn't cost effective to make content that isn't publicly consumable. It is like PVP, too few people playing it so lets just remove it.
And, this is different how for anyone in this same boat, making a new toon and/or, just starting to play this game?
Reps are quick, requiring roughly 40days of 20hr projects, made quicker with sponsorship tokens cutting them in half.
R&D will take time doing 20hr xp projects only but, they also can be quickened by refined dilithium payments.
Gear may or, may not take time depending on your playtime available, how deep your pockets are game currency wise, how cheap and economical you want to go, how quickly one can obtain rep gear if this is what you want, if you are in a fleet and, have the opportunity to purchase what you need, etc.
A good majority of gear, can be easily obtained from the exchange, if you are a savvy shopper.
EC's are easily obtainable so, purchasing from the exchange is not an issue, if you know where to go to get them and, what you can sell/flip to earn more.
Worrying about R&D hitting lvl20, isn't really needed, as R&D crafting boosters can be bought fairly cheaply on the exchange.
None. I was just responding to your comment about your DR being better than my "main".
40 days to get a rep up in this game if you log in every day. There Are MMO's that I play, and didn't log in every day and completed the reps in less than half that time. And they are just as fun as STO. And in some ways better.
None. I was just responding to your comment about your DR being better than my "main".
40 days to get a rep up in this game if you log in every day. There Are MMO's that I play, and didn't log in every day and completed the reps in less than half that time. And they are just as fun as STO. And in some ways better.
Well, STO isn't them and, if you don't care for the timers, than maybe this game isn't for you!
I have to deal with them, others have to deal with them and, you have to deal with them so....
You should keep going back to your proposal rather than going around circles that each specific word who disagrees you is not a good argument. .
Can you be a bigger hypocrite. Only reason it is circular is you can't accept anything that is a compromise or completely in line with your perspective, and keep turning it in circles yourself.
You apparently belong to #2. So present your solution why #2 solution is better to players who support #1 like myself and several others in this thread.
Your 2 categories are biased by your blatantly false perspective.
There is the side you are one, the one that wants the difficulty to remain and thinks forcing others into play styles they don't want is a suitable solution, and are really only concerned about keeping the rewards exclusive to yourself, even if only a minor concession is given.
There is the side that wants to nerf difficult content so they can progress.
And there are those that could care less about the rewards, want to keep the difficulty, and and change the reward system so those who aren't interested in Advance or Elite content have no reason to play it and complain about it being too hard.
My idea is better because unlike your position, which offers nothing to the other sides except a bunch of hot air, my idea actually provides an answer to both sides of the difficulty issue, only compromising those like yourself that are about the exclusive rewards. The Elite and Advanced still get increased rewards, and the Normal gets a more limited version.
No more noobs queuing up for Advanced and Elite unprepared just to get stuff, the difficulty remains, and they get to progress in the game in the way they want through the play style they prefer rather than be forced into other areas.
Your idea only gives a good outcome to you, and provides no real solution for anyone else.
The whole idea that oh you can just go do other things to build up dilithium and buy zen and sell stuff is so much bs. That completely defeats the purpose of being able to play the parts of the game those players want to play, and progress.
None. I was just responding to your comment about your DR being better than my "main".
40 days to get a rep up in this game if you log in every day. There Are MMO's that I play, and didn't log in every day and completed the reps in less than half that time. And they are just as fun as STO. And in some ways better.
Le Beeg Sigh...
It's hard not to see your complaint being that there is stuff to do in the game.
You want to be finished. You don't want to have anything to do in the game.
Timer or no timers, everything you just said, is the player's own fault.
There is plenty of time in quite a few missions, to discuss strategy at the very beginning and, even while doing it.
Pretty much every mission, requires you to complete X to move onto Y.
team coordination, is relevant on the players who are playing.
All of which players, decide not to use 99.9% of the time, when Pugging.
Hence, it is the player's fault and, not the game mechanics that are provided!!!
And I disagree. The fact that there are timers on the content limits the time you can strategize with people. It also eliminates any real option to stop and rethink what the team is doing to accomplish the goal. People are to pressured by the clock to actually stop and rethink, replan and discuss the options. The timers force you to get it done fast. And doesn't allow for people to figure out what is working and what is not working. Nor does it do anything to promote people to chat. The clock is ticking, and you definately will fail if you waste any time not trying to complete the content. At least running and gunning from the start gives you the option that you might luck out in reaching the goal. But it will never consistantly get the goal.
Team coordination is irrelevant only when the clock says it is. No clock and then people can take the time to talk before the they start at something. Or even when you suffer problems, you can pull back and rethink the process and then re-attack the task with a new plan.
As long as there are timers, there will be no time for talk and team co-ordination with the run for PUG's.
To me, this is a clear and simple thing. And very obvious. For you it is not.
And unless you decide that clocks are bad for PUG's and Teamwork, we are not going to see eye to eye on this.
Well, STO isn't them and, if you don't care for the timers, than maybe this game isn't for you!
I have to deal with them, others have to deal with them and, you have to deal with them so....
Never had a problem with timers till they revamped the STF's.
I think the timers that put into the game were antithesis to Puging and teamwork. Pull out the timers and set in other requiremnts to maintain the difficulty and things will probably get better. Remove the options that are failable by one person's actions and things will get better. That is my thoughts on this. Do things in the STF's to promote teamwork, and things will definately improve because people will have to talk to each other and work together.
And while STO is not those MMO's, they are comparable. And there is nothing wrong from taking the lessons another game has learned on how to do something right and apply it to your own product.
This game should be for more than just one set of people or just one way of playing. Expanding it options of play will be better for the game. And that is what I want for the game. To be better than it is now.
This game should be for more than just one set of people or just one way of playing. Expanding it options of play will be better for the game. And that is what I want for the game. To be better than it is now.
Then why is it you're doing exactly that...wanting the game to be for you. No options there...just how you want it. There are all sorts of options there for all sorts of different people to do things - but you don't like those. And so you want to change that...wanting the game to be for you.
You're doing exactly what you're complaining about, when what you're complaining about missing already exists.
Albert is unprepared.
Betty is a leech.
Chuck is a troll.
Deborah is trying but just isn't quite ready.
Eddie is prepared, not a leech nor a troll.
How can Eddie's problem be fixed?
Eddie, Albert and Deborah talk and work out a a plan. As things go on. Eddie takes leadership role and adjust the the plan as they go and continues to talk to Eddie and Deborah as much as possible.
At least that is possible, if the there are no timers limiting talk time, and there are no fail conditions that Chuck can trigger.
Those three, working together, will be able to complete the content. It just might take them a bit of time, but they will succeed because they worked together. Betty may, or may not, help out. But at least Chuck can't keep them from succeeding.
Keep fails and timers, and even the people willing and wanting to do thier best get frustrated and run. And they may even run from the game eventually, because they can't succeed.
Comments
except when presented with a solution that doesnt' affect your rewards and puts the difficulty back, you whinge about them getting rewards only you were before.
So yes it is what you care about more. So no, I'm not twisting anything. I'm pointing out your exact arguments you made previously.
All this is hinged if even the side who wants the nerf is even actually the majority. We wont know the actual figures except we can deduce:
A ) Players who dont do STF
B ) Players who make Normal effort and content doing Normal
C ) Players who are stuck at Normal but refuse to use in game mechanics but demand to be at advance
D ) Players who can do advance and complete advance
E ) Players who can do elite and complete elite
The issue is with player C. This thread is all about that, my argument is about all that.
My argument was never about me.
It absolutely is about you when you you can't accept a solution that returns the difficulty back, and your only problem is they get a limited reward.
I can see that you either a fantastic troll or just want to debate without actually going directly to the point.
You should keep going back to your proposal rather than going around circles that each specific word who disagrees you is not a good argument.
It is better that way than you creating senseless arguments and self created words that only mean something to you.
Then go back to the solution rather than troll. Majority of your posts are trolling never about your solution that you presented.
If bro advanced does not challenge one enough give elite a shot, thats why we have this variety. Elite is even much fun to pug when Im on a sci toon (haling abilities) where I have a good chance tending to the mission criticals. If not the outcome highly depends on the other team-mates reducing my team-performance from average to 66% tops (if you take into account that I have an easy time activating a center device as well as one secondary).
As for advanced mode ones ability to challenge oneself will not necessarily lead to a fail now, true, but it will highly diminish reward outcome in form of marks to a point where time is close to wasted. If I choose this subpar setting for myself I do so knowing that I may get a bad group or have to rely criticals to others (Im on my own and not on my sci for brotherhood) or I go deliberately with eg. new players from fleet or those with under geared toons on a quest for marks (hey delta recrut). I still find the battle challenging then under such circumstances, something the normal mode constantly denied simply because of too easy critters.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I do my share of elites for some extra challenge + when I feel like grinding up some mats for exp tech but, not every mission as of yet has an elite so, I do advanced missions for mainly fun factor because nerfing myself down some put more challenge into it, including the chance of failure currently. [except dealing with trolls causing immediate fails]
I never got real enjoyment out of the old elites, as they were too simple to do and not fail and, made them into nothing but a tediously boring time consumer was all.
While they are still somewhat the tedious time consumer, at least now they pose an actual challenge!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Lol in gods name why don't u stick to elite then Mr. E and even bother to play advanced performance police for C?
This thread does not seem to be your topic dude.
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Doing Elite does not mean I only do elite. You asked me if I do elite. So I said yes I do elite.
Do all missions have elite?
Its like you or anyone also doing elite and normal. Even though you do normal or elite, you guys belong here but I dont?
Its like all these arguments that came along in this thread, the definition is ever evolving only to fit what they want. From the defintion casual, to the self created vocabulary of self entitlement and now who belongs in this thread. All fits them except those that argue against.
There is a good number of queues that don't have elite difficulty including all old borg missions which seem to be the biggest problem for a lot of players. So just because someone is playing other missions on elite they should stay out of advanced borg missions?
And how is your argument any better than someone saying if you don't have at least 8k DPS stay the hell out of advanced? Pot, kettle, black....
The typical reply from someone with no counter argument.
LOL you think strawman argument is a self created word. Hilarious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Sorry no self created word there. Or was it Whinge?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whinge
Someone needs to expand their vocabulary.
I'm sorry there, it was not and you are right.
Its just some peeps belong to normal, some belong to elite. Yet advanced seem to be the playground both groups constantly seem to meet and clash at each other, simply for the reason because they WANT to meaning...
...probably thousands of players or (if the queue list participation is any indication) hundreds of players with ALL different attitudes and agendas why the think they want to play with one another in advanced, can you imagine?
Well the only change they made so far is to a map without elite is ANAR, a terribly bad example because this map seems to have a discreet RNG related reward mechanic limiting team performance.
As far as fails in the classic STF are concerned I remain sceptical on multiple fronts if or how changes are implemented especially under consideration that they deliberately left those out for an Elite setting. I can only conclude the lack of time gate and power creep for the space ones to be a reason. Ground seems to have a bit of a time gate due to the terrain to cover. I just hope they wont share the fate of no win.
As for them being challenging for me as individual is concerned the classic STFs reach from easy peasy 2 side probstream holding to almost impossible attempts to free multiple hostages alone in IGA so alls available there.
Remove them or let them stay in advanced? Think the participation in queues will decide whats right or wrong here. In any case challenge can be set pretty good by oneself by the quality of the team you run in but in any case removing them in advanced without a proper elite version to be released would mean we loose something we currently have, yea.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Never said it was strawman nor it was you. It is senseless to argue with your with sidetrack issues. Because if I do there would dozens of pages that I would answer stuff like these.
The topic is about two sides, To sum it up:
1) There are in game mechanics to solve the advance queues problem of the thread
2) Flatly reject ingame mechanics solution and pass the problem to the devs
You apparently belong to #2. So present your solution why #2 solution is better to players who support #1 like myself and several others in this thread.
When two people or two groups or even multiple points of view are being discussed, argued, debated...it is generally important to have some shared common definitions or at least some understanding of the definition the other party or parties are using. Otherwise, can they not end up potentially in disagreement simply because they are using the same word or words to mean different things, yeah? So with you using one definition to argue against a group of others using a different definition...why would one not want to know what you mean and why you mean that instead of what it means to others?
Hell, gets into the whinge thing. British English vs. American English...could explain quite a few things going on with the various definitions and use of terms.
But trying to get to a common ground...isn't a straw man fallacy. Trying to turn it into a something it isn't...hey, guess what?
Well, the thing is in regards to challenge for myself, is there are times that I jump into a pug group and, I have 2-3 exp players scoring good - huge dps #'s, while I myself have kept my relatively small as to keep the challenge in this dept. for myself.
But, I also get players that cannot pump enough sustained dps, to even match a shuttle/fighter and, when I watch them closely, it's mainly because of their play style and/or build but, than again they could just be trolling!!!
Now, the other side of challenge for myself, is to play a mission that has the possibility of complete and utter failure, despite whether it has any other objective(s) to complete. [like an optional]
This is how I keep myself having fun, doing mostly what is deemed repeatable missions, for the sake of repeating them for X reason, whether that reason be to obtain marks/elite marks/train a fellow fleet member or friend/obtain R&D mats/etc.
They, like any mission run over and over again, become tedious so, I hope for them to still have a failure challenge at least and, than factor what it takes to dwarf myself down enough to add some more challenge, making it actually have some fun factor, to go with my side of tediousness.
Eliminate the failure in general and, than there becomes no point in nerfing myself, because it goes back to just being tedious in general, sapping any form of fun and challenge there could ever possibly be to it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Actually, my main is has all but Iconian Rep done. And has alot of things. But it will take me over a year to max out each R&D catagory in total. I probaly have 8 months left to get htem all to 20.
And it has been all from me playing the game. In fact. I have more than one char at 60. And more than one that has full reps, except for Iconian. But I have only one guy with level 15 in every R&D catagory. And he has only one at 20.
My statement is more about having to get a fresh char to max Reps, max R&D, and getting their gear setup correctly. Which takes months, and possibly over a year, to get completely done.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
And, this is different how for anyone in this same boat, making a new toon and/or, just starting to play this game?
Reps are quick, requiring roughly 40days of 20hr projects, made quicker with sponsorship tokens cutting them in half.
R&D will take time doing 20hr xp projects only but, they also can be quickened by refined dilithium payments.
Gear may or, may not take time depending on your playtime available, how deep your pockets are game currency wise, how cheap and economical you want to go, how quickly one can obtain rep gear if this is what you want, if you are in a fleet and, have the opportunity to purchase what you need, etc.
A good majority of gear, can be easily obtained from the exchange, if you are a savvy shopper.
EC's are easily obtainable so, purchasing from the exchange is not an issue, if you know where to go to get them and, what you can sell/flip to earn more.
Worrying about R&D hitting lvl20, isn't really needed, as R&D crafting boosters can be bought fairly cheaply on the exchange.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I have third side. the ingame mechanics are not good enough to properly deal with the issue. With some options not realistic possibly for every person.
And my only desire has been to remove the timer fails so that it would promote team interactin without having to worry about not having enough time to complete the objectives. I have never said to remove the challange, only that Timers are actually detrimental to getting a PUG to work together as a team. Remove the timers and put other things in place. like things being triggered when X is done, and mybe Y has to be done before X can be done, are all reasonable ways to get challange in the game without having timers.
Looking at the new content, Brotherhood, I like that you have to activate one Iconian pylon to find the other two pylons to turn off. The timers are there to say get it done with in this time or loose out out on extra loot. All things that I like as a set up. But I wished the first one wasn't on a timer so that people could talk amongst themselves to assign out who is doing what. Whit knowing that the next areas will be doing the same general thing, it gets easy to organize and rolling while a timer a going, because all of the intial strategiizing has already occured. End result is that the difficulty is not lost, the rewards are for those that work as a team to reach for it. And single person can't troll the entire group from getting the win.
That is what I want. And the rest of what you have said does nothing to help solve the problem, because the problem exist because of what you want.
And I am really getting to the point that you don't want change. And are really here to fight to keep the game stagnant and the queues reserved for only those people that have the options to create pre-mades to take on the queues.
Accept that not everyone has that option, and not everyone wants to be an economist, and look for solutions that widen the play options, instead of narrowing them, and then we have something to talk and gain together. Untill then, I don't think either of us is ever going to agree on this. I could be wrong, and you might just change your mind, but I don't see that happening.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Timer or no timers, everything you just said, is the player's own fault.
There is plenty of time in quite a few missions, to discuss strategy at the very beginning and, even while doing it.
Pretty much every mission, requires you to complete X to move onto Y.
team coordination, is relevant on the players who are playing.
All of which players, decide not to use 99.9% of the time, when Pugging.
Hence, it is the player's fault and, not the game mechanics that are provided!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Your solutions are ridiculous. You consistently offer nothing of value.
Don't PUG is not a solution to problems encountered while PUGging. It does not solve it. It does not fix it. It does not even address it. It avoids it entirely, buries head in sand, and pretends there is nothing there.
Improving one's build and skills to the point where you can solo the queue is far beyond the realm of realism for the vast majority of people. It does not offer an actual solution. It is the same nonsense along the lines of "No bread? Let them eat cake."
So how about this: If queues are dead, lets just remove them all. No private queues, no public queues. Why? It isn't cost effective to make content that isn't publicly consumable. It is like PVP, too few people playing it so lets just remove it.
I think that fixing them is a better idea.
None. I was just responding to your comment about your DR being better than my "main".
40 days to get a rep up in this game if you log in every day. There Are MMO's that I play, and didn't log in every day and completed the reps in less than half that time. And they are just as fun as STO. And in some ways better.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Well, STO isn't them and, if you don't care for the timers, than maybe this game isn't for you!
I have to deal with them, others have to deal with them and, you have to deal with them so....
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Albert is unprepared.
Betty is a leech.
Chuck is a troll.
Deborah is trying but just isn't quite ready.
Eddie is prepared, not a leech nor a troll.
How can Eddie's problem be fixed?
Can you be a bigger hypocrite. Only reason it is circular is you can't accept anything that is a compromise or completely in line with your perspective, and keep turning it in circles yourself.
Your 2 categories are biased by your blatantly false perspective.
There is the side you are one, the one that wants the difficulty to remain and thinks forcing others into play styles they don't want is a suitable solution, and are really only concerned about keeping the rewards exclusive to yourself, even if only a minor concession is given.
There is the side that wants to nerf difficult content so they can progress.
And there are those that could care less about the rewards, want to keep the difficulty, and and change the reward system so those who aren't interested in Advance or Elite content have no reason to play it and complain about it being too hard.
My idea is better because unlike your position, which offers nothing to the other sides except a bunch of hot air, my idea actually provides an answer to both sides of the difficulty issue, only compromising those like yourself that are about the exclusive rewards. The Elite and Advanced still get increased rewards, and the Normal gets a more limited version.
No more noobs queuing up for Advanced and Elite unprepared just to get stuff, the difficulty remains, and they get to progress in the game in the way they want through the play style they prefer rather than be forced into other areas.
Your idea only gives a good outcome to you, and provides no real solution for anyone else.
The whole idea that oh you can just go do other things to build up dilithium and buy zen and sell stuff is so much bs. That completely defeats the purpose of being able to play the parts of the game those players want to play, and progress.
Le Beeg Sigh...
It's hard not to see your complaint being that there is stuff to do in the game.
You want to be finished. You don't want to have anything to do in the game.
...seriously?
Oh bull****
Don't quote me in your post if you aren't responding to me then.
So please tell us what these self created words are then. Please point these words out to us and enlighten us all.
And I disagree. The fact that there are timers on the content limits the time you can strategize with people. It also eliminates any real option to stop and rethink what the team is doing to accomplish the goal. People are to pressured by the clock to actually stop and rethink, replan and discuss the options. The timers force you to get it done fast. And doesn't allow for people to figure out what is working and what is not working. Nor does it do anything to promote people to chat. The clock is ticking, and you definately will fail if you waste any time not trying to complete the content. At least running and gunning from the start gives you the option that you might luck out in reaching the goal. But it will never consistantly get the goal.
Team coordination is irrelevant only when the clock says it is. No clock and then people can take the time to talk before the they start at something. Or even when you suffer problems, you can pull back and rethink the process and then re-attack the task with a new plan.
As long as there are timers, there will be no time for talk and team co-ordination with the run for PUG's.
To me, this is a clear and simple thing. And very obvious. For you it is not.
And unless you decide that clocks are bad for PUG's and Teamwork, we are not going to see eye to eye on this.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Never had a problem with timers till they revamped the STF's.
I think the timers that put into the game were antithesis to Puging and teamwork. Pull out the timers and set in other requiremnts to maintain the difficulty and things will probably get better. Remove the options that are failable by one person's actions and things will get better. That is my thoughts on this. Do things in the STF's to promote teamwork, and things will definately improve because people will have to talk to each other and work together.
And while STO is not those MMO's, they are comparable. And there is nothing wrong from taking the lessons another game has learned on how to do something right and apply it to your own product.
This game should be for more than just one set of people or just one way of playing. Expanding it options of play will be better for the game. And that is what I want for the game. To be better than it is now.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Then why is it you're doing exactly that...wanting the game to be for you. No options there...just how you want it. There are all sorts of options there for all sorts of different people to do things - but you don't like those. And so you want to change that...wanting the game to be for you.
You're doing exactly what you're complaining about, when what you're complaining about missing already exists.
You just want to change the game to be for you.
They were already pointed out...by a few folks. Your definitions of words...being different.
Eddie, Albert and Deborah talk and work out a a plan. As things go on. Eddie takes leadership role and adjust the the plan as they go and continues to talk to Eddie and Deborah as much as possible.
At least that is possible, if the there are no timers limiting talk time, and there are no fail conditions that Chuck can trigger.
Those three, working together, will be able to complete the content. It just might take them a bit of time, but they will succeed because they worked together. Betty may, or may not, help out. But at least Chuck can't keep them from succeeding.
Keep fails and timers, and even the people willing and wanting to do thier best get frustrated and run. And they may even run from the game eventually, because they can't succeed.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)