1) Even with such facts, I wouldn't count one city as the entire planet/race, with/without invasion status - that's just how I am
Well, tough. That's where the sum of the evidence points. Just because you don't like the resulting theory because it's "just how you are" doesn't make it not true. Ref: Climate change, macroevolution, and vaccine safety.
2) The plan for afterward? Anyone who goes rogue, or disobeys orders, usually always have reasons and/or plans to go along with them - I see no reason why they wouldn't. And we don't exactly have proof either that the Kobali's military is command-structured like our own, at least as far as I'm aware
Bull. There's already plenty of evidence in the Kobali Front for a chain of command and a recognizable rank structure. These are basic common-sense military practices, as is desertion, disobedience of orders, and insubordination being crimes, and a society would have to be radically different in form (ref: the Borg) for any other format to actually work. There is no evidence for that with the Kobali.
For an example, the geth in Mass Effect are a direct democracy, making decisions by consensus of all geth. That doesn't work for species who are not computer programs that communicate and think at the speed of light. If you tried to run a human ship as a democracy in the same manner, as Gene Roddenberry originally proposed, you'd be dead. There's no time to verbally or textually poll every last redshirt on command decisions when the ship is under attack and one mistake means everybody dies, so the captain must necessarily be able to give an order and have that order obeyed regardless of Random Crewman John Smith's personal opinion. A legally enforced chain of command with penalties for disobedience is what allows that to happen.
Occam's Razor: The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Q'Ret acted according to standard Kobali procedure with the authority of the Kobali government, and the Kobali number only in the low millions at best.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well, tough. That's where the sum of the evidence points. Just because you don't like the resulting theory because it's "just how you are" doesn't make it not true. Ref: Climate change, macroevolution, and vaccine safety.
Bull. There's already plenty of evidence in the Kobali Front for a chain of command and a recognizable rank structure. These are basic common-sense military practices, as is desertion, disobedience of orders, and insubordination being crimes, and a society would have to be radically different in form (ref: the Borg) for any other format to actually work. There is no evidence for that with the Kobali.
For an example, the geth in Mass Effect are a direct democracy, making decisions by consensus of all geth. That doesn't work for species who are not computer programs that communicate and think at the speed of light. If you tried to run a human ship as a democracy in the same manner, as Gene Roddenberry originally proposed, you'd be dead. There's no time to verbally or textually poll every last redshirt on command decisions when the ship is under attack and one mistake means everybody dies, so the captain must necessarily be able to give an order and have that order obeyed regardless of Random Crewman John Smith's personal opinion. A legally enforced chain of command with penalties for disobedience is what allows that to happen.
Occam's Razor: The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Q'Ret acted according to standard Kobali procedure with the authority of the Kobali government, and the Kobali number only in the low millions at best.
Look, you're saying that the facts point to those conclusions - what you've been saying now/before - and that's all there is to it, logically
But frankly, I see the facts, and I get a different conclusion; that doesn't mean that it's anymore right or wrong than your view of it. There's a good reason people can have entirely different views on the same subject, even same facts - they don't necessarily lead to the same conclusions
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Look, you're saying that the facts point to those conclusions - what you've been saying now/before - and that's all there is to it, logically
But frankly, I see the facts, and I get a different conclusion; that doesn't mean that it's anymore right or wrong than your view of it. There's a good reason people can have entirely different views on the same subject, even same facts - they don't necessarily lead to the same conclusions
Fine. How do you think it works? And cite evidence for your conclusions. You're the one making the claim, so back it up.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Fine. How do you think it works? And cite evidence for your conclusions. You're the one making the claim, so back it up.
In Ashes to Ashes, I saw three ships and a lone father chasing after a 'lost one'. They have a term for ones who've escaped, and the father was insistent on bringing her back, enough that the crew of the ships followed his lead
I see a (very) over-protective father overruling his daughter's wishes, which is extreme - and a group of Kobali who either agree/understand/willing enough to go along with it to avoid trouble (likely all of the above, given individual considerations), which is definitely in the morally grey area. And this can be further morally grey if he is disobeying orders and/or going rogue, in addition. Still, that says that that particular group looks at their cultural practice as sacred, and will fanatically do anything to keep it so
So they have procedures like such, viewpoints of such, and Kobali who think or go along with such - but, even with all that, my personal opinion is that implications and one group/one father/three ships doesn't = their entire cultural behavior/viewpoints/etc. And I wouldn't like to assume such anyway, even without further proof; our own race is very diverse, and even if the diversity is lower in other species, it must exist to a certain extent.
On the Kobali homeworld missions, they've asked for help, because their survival is being threatened. And it's this survival issue that, similar to the Bynar example, means that they think they can't take the risk of the Alliance going away by telling them upfront. So, they tell several general lies (that they aren't keeping Vaadwaur prisoners, that they don't know why they aren't pushing more heavily toward the temple, etc), and keep maintaining those same lies.
It's certainly no excuse, either for lying in the first place or keeping critical information withheld, but imo, the reasons why need to be considered rather than outright dismissed - they could have thought it out better, true, but still. And it isn't a line-crosser, at least yet, for me. And professional officers would have to take it into consideration as well, because it's part of their job, so our in-game characters have some reason for the restraint
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Inability to give consent is inherently denied consent. You...I can't even...how can you sleep at night? How can you say these things, write these things?
There is nothing morally gray about forcing people who cannot give consent to be massively physically transformed. That's like r*ping someone who's in a coma and claiming that it was consensual because she was in a coma. It. Is. EVIL.
What you just said is incredibly vile, and made my physically ill enough to vomit into a toilet. It has inherently invalidated every single one of your arguments by making it clear that you have no moral compass whatsoever.
Dude, if it hasn't been made clear already, that's how you think - it's not how I think, or how everyone else thinks. That applies to most everything. Maybe to you it's evil, but to me, it hasn't crossed that line, because I see things differently
So in your opinion, maybe I am a monster - in mine, I simply have tolerance and understanding for a lot of things, which sorta comes from being ambivalent. But even so, your opinion doesn't give you the right to state that my opinion is invalid based on anything I've said - not to mention that calling me a monster in the first place is uncalled for, even if you think I am. And by doing so, you're only digging yourself in deeper credibility-wise with such a rant
Also, you're wrong on one point; my arguments aren't purely based off my moral compass, but rather thinking and analyzing (which I keep separate from how I feel about something in most cases)
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Let me put it this way, monster. If I am in a coma, and somebody wants to have sex with me so that she can have children with my DNA, is that consensual? I'm in a coma, so unable to give consent. Does that make r*ping me OK?
I'm in a coma, permanent vegetative state, effectively brain-dead. Somebody hijacks my brain for another personality, brings me back as another person and forces me to be their child. If I try to run, I get chased and dragged back whether I want to or not, and the people who did this to me will shoot anyone who shelters me. Is that consensual?
No.
Both of those cases are inherently nonconsensual, and accepting them as OK like you do is evil.
And yes, calling you a monster IS called for. You just said that r*pe is OK if the victim isn't conscious. That's evil.
That's your problem; you think not being able to give consent at all is inherently denied consent, period, and apparently as a universal-fact that we must all agree to. I do not agree, and therefore, I do not see it as full-on r*pe in the first place on that basis. Nor do it see it as evil, but morally grey + near-black-but-not-line-crossed instead, on that same basis. Doesn't make my way wrong (outside of your opinion) simply because you believe otherwise
Therefore you have no basis to continue stating your 'I'm a monster' opinion on me. You've already stated it, and are instead merely continually forcing it on me in the form of an insult/personal attack - which, as you should know, isn't acceptable no matter what on this forum
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
okay, it's time for askray to close this thread and start handing out bans
attacking other players is VERY clearly defined in the ToS as being forbidden, NO EXCEPTIONS
Yeah, TRIBBLE it, I'm deleting everything I've said because I'm clearly banging my head against a wall here. Nothing I say will convince trek21 that the Kobali are violating sentient rights, and everything he says makes me physically ill, so there's really no point in saying anything.
I just want to say wolfman1, I saw your post before you edited it - but I'm still glad you edited it
I'd just like to say, that everything you've said makes me physically ill, and I'd be glad if you edited your posts and then tried to say that stuff in public. You need a lesson that I won't and can't give you.
I'd just like to say, that everything you've said makes me physically ill, and I'd be glad if you edited your posts and then tried to say that stuff in public. You need a lesson that I won't and can't give you.
Well, we have different opinions on what constitutes/looks like/is/is not a violation of sentient rights
Maybe for you, you think I need a lesson - but at the very least, I only think this opinion; what I feel is somewhat different + separate from that opinion, and even then, I don't force any of those opinions on others. At most, I'd just state it, and that'd be it
That's all
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You're still making me sick. I have three friends who read what you said, one of whom was r*ped after being drugged on a date, and whose attacker you would consider to be morally gray. All three are telling me to keep calling you out on your BS.
You're doing nothing to improve the situation at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.
You're still making me sick. I have three friends who read what you said, one of whom was r*ped after being drugged on a date, and whose attacker you would consider to be morally gray. All three are telling me to keep calling you out on your BS.
You're doing nothing to improve the situation at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I wasn't trying to 'improve' the situation, just explain it
But at this point, why not just end it and stop, period? I certainly am as of this post, if only to prevent you from getting as angry as you did earlier and restart this
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I wasn't trying to 'improve' the situation, just explain it
But at this point, why not just end it and stop, period? I certainly am as of this post, if only to prevent you from getting as angry as you did earlier and restart this
You're only explaining your own issues, dude. You've reduced me to vomiting in a toilet, and one of my friends to a shaking mess being comforted by two other friends, because she has just been slammed with unequivocal evidence that there are people like you in the world who don't think that her assault was an assault.
Every single thing that you have said so far has made you look more immoral. I would advise you to stop and go get some serious training, preferably from someone familiar with domestic and sexual abuse, because you clearly don't understand how severe it is.
I'm stopping, too, if only because trying to make you see how awful the things you're saying are is as pointless as slamming my head against a brick wall.
This Kobali story is the worst storytelling in Star Trek history, which for 50 years has celebrated the human condition.
It belongs in some post apocalyptic horror story, but you just had to cash in on that Zombie trend, didnt you Cryptic. Even if it made no sense at all. Does CBS even know what you are doing with their IP?
Your story isnt making sense. its disgusting and insulting. Just like your tedious level cap grind, and your heaps of npc hitpoints that you laughingly call 'increased difficulty'
The Kobali arc could be handled a lot better than it is now.
As far as the Delta alliance's actions go, they've basically fallen for the sunk-costs fallacy. The Delta Alliance was trying to ally with everyone they could - frankly, compared to the amoral space pirates and bounty hunters we had to choose from, the Kobali looked pretty good (In fact, I'd still pick the Kobali over the Heirarchy). After discovering the Kobali's secrets, a good portion of starfleet hid behind regulations to pretend it didn't matter at all. I disagree with that choice both in and out of character: this is something that we need to get the full details on, so we don't need to make guesses and inferences about how bad it is. But since we're still at war on multiple fronts, we haven't had time to sit down and get the big answers.
I can see both sides of the argument.
worffan101, i agree that the Kobali are getting off too lightly, but you've done a poor job of giving your point. All the examples you've given are truly terrible, but they're too extreme in comparison to what the Kobali have actually done. You read like you're trying to insist that gray and obsidian are exactly the same, or that 2 is greater than 5 because it's an even number like 8. The comparison isn't quite good enough for everyone to agree with.
Again, I believe you have ground to argue on, but you're stumbling over your words!
I hope your friend doesn't take trek21's dismissal to heart. What she went through was truly terrible, and I don't believe anyone here meant to imply that her pain was irrelevant or false. Rather, the science fiction is too distant and bizarre to compare to real pain like hers.
As for myself, I don't believe that the Kobali are in the right here, but neither are the Vaudwaur. Nor do I think the Kobali as a race are irredeemable. Certainly not moreso than plenty of other races we've seen and a good number of us play as. Given time, they can be made to face the flaws of their society and overcome them. But it needs to happen onscreen, and hiding behind General Order 1, Section B won't solve anything.
This Kobali story is the worst storytelling in Star Trek history, which for 50 years has celebrated the human condition.
It belongs in some post apocalyptic horror story, but you just had to cash in on that Zombie trend, didnt you Cryptic. Even if it made no sense at all. Does CBS even know what you are doing with their IP?
Your story isnt making sense. its disgusting and insulting. Just like your tedious level cap grind, and your heaps of npc hitpoints that you laughingly call 'increased difficulty'
Close this thread and ban my account.
I wouldn't call it the worst (and still think that a true way allied with dominion forces after the events of what you leave behind is the most retardetet piece of story telling since jar jar trek...).
Actually the story was quiet entertaining on the first play through. And it's always nice to see some kind of moral dilemma in Star Trek..... Just the one sided way of dealing with it... That's a problem.
The Kobali arc could be handled a lot better than it is now.
As far as the Delta alliance's actions go, they've basically fallen for the sunk-costs fallacy. The Delta Alliance was trying to ally with everyone they could - frankly, compared to the amoral space pirates and bounty hunters we had to choose from, the Kobali looked pretty good (In fact, I'd still pick the Kobali over the Heirarchy). After discovering the Kobali's secrets, a good portion of starfleet hid behind regulations to pretend it didn't matter at all. I disagree with that choice both in and out of character: this is something that we need to get the full details on, so we don't need to make guesses and inferences about how bad it is. But since we're still at war on multiple fronts, we haven't had time to sit down and get the big answers.
In character that makes sense yes...
worffan101, i agree that the Kobali are getting off too lightly, but you've done a poor job of giving your point. All the examples you've given are truly terrible, but they're too extreme in comparison to what the Kobali have actually done. You read like you're trying to insist that gray and obsidian are exactly the same, or that 2 is greater than 5 because it's an even number like 8. The comparison isn't quite good enough for everyone to agree with.
I disagree on that. Sience fiction stuff is never disconnected from reality or possible reality. It usually parallels something in reality.
And every comparison I find for the kobalis actions, no matter how hard I try to find a "grey" one, involve ****, abduction and worst.
No matter how you turn it, what they do is forcing their will, their culture on our people as much aus the vaadwaur, for their procreation. On an extremly personal level (altering the dna). Not wanting to hurt someone like worffans friend, but that is actually worst then ****.
As for myself, I don't believe that the Kobali are in the right here, but neither are the Vaudwaur. Nor do I think the Kobali as a race are irredeemable. Certainly not moreso than plenty of other races we've seen and a good number of us play as. Given time, they can be made to face the flaws of their society and overcome them. But it needs to happen onscreen, and hiding behind General Order 1, Section B won't solve anything.
Disagreed again. After the main conflict the vaadwaur are at the Kobali world only for the bodys. They agreed to cease fire if the Kobali would turn over their people, the Kobali refuse and continue to violate the vaadwaur.
Who are clearly sick of the mere thought of what the Kobali do their people, so clearly not giving anything resembling consent.
And for the Kobali....min my opinion they are done. They lost their ability to procreate, and that was their own fault. That means for once the actual Kobali probably have already died out. Also it means their only way of continuing their existence is on the expense of others and (looking at the vaadwaur) not only without consent but clearly AGAINST consent.
I disagree on that. Sience fiction stuff is never disconnected from reality or possible reality. It usually parallels something in reality.
And every comparison I find for the kobalis actions, no matter how hard I try to find a "grey" one, involve ****, abduction and worst.
No matter how you turn it, what they do is forcing their will, their culture on our people as much aus the vaadwaur, for their procreation. On an extremly personal level (altering the dna). Not wanting to hurt someone like worffans friend, but that is actually worst then ****.
Actually, I think that she'd agree with you. What happened to her was beyond horrible, but at least she still has her identity and doesn't have to live with the guy who did it to her. And the segment of society that she lives in has made it clear that she is unconditionally loved and supported and that she can count on people like me and my friend Mark and the entire Psi Phi (not a frat) club to stand up for her and her rights. What happened to her is still traumatic and awful, but at least she has a support network to help her deal with it.
And that's the worst part of the Kobali. They don't just violate you, they take your very identity and force you to live with the people who violated you. No support network, no friends, nobody standing up for you or your rights, just brainwashing and constant emotional abuse.
I wouldn't call it the worst (and still think that a true way allied with dominion forces after the events of what you leave behind is the most retardetet piece of story telling since jar jar trek...).
Actually the story was quiet entertaining on the first play through. And it's always nice to see some kind of moral dilemma in Star Trek..... Just the one sided way of dealing with it... That's a problem.
In character that makes sense yes...
I disagree on that. Sience fiction stuff is never disconnected from reality or possible reality. It usually parallels something in reality.
And every comparison I find for the kobalis actions, no matter how hard I try to find a "grey" one, involve ****, abduction and worst.
No matter how you turn it, what they do is forcing their will, their culture on our people as much aus the vaadwaur, for their procreation. On an extremly personal level (altering the dna). Not wanting to hurt someone like worffans friend, but that is actually worst then ****.
Disagreed again. After the main conflict the vaadwaur are at the Kobali world only for the bodys. They agreed to cease fire if the Kobali would turn over their people, the Kobali refuse and continue to violate the vaadwaur.
Who are clearly sick of the mere thought of what the Kobali do their people, so clearly not giving anything resembling consent.
And for the Kobali....min my opinion they are done. They lost their ability to procreate, and that was their own fault. That means for once the actual Kobali probably have already died out. Also it means their only way of continuing their existence is on the expense of others and (looking at the vaadwaur) not only without consent but clearly AGAINST consent.
My personal thoughts are that the Delta Alliance should commandeer the stasis pods from the Kobali and maintain them, as a sort of POW until a true a confirmed peace can be had with the Vaadwaur before giving them back to them, both living and dead. The Kobali agreed to ask permission from homeworlds before using bodies, the Vaadwaur should be no different at the same time ensuring they wouldnt be used as reinforcements for a new wave of assaults.
Actually, I think that she'd agree with you. What happened to her was beyond horrible, but at least she still has her identity and doesn't have to live with the guy who did it to her. And the segment of society that she lives in has made it clear that she is unconditionally loved and supported and that she can count on people like me and my friend Mark and the entire Psi Phi (not a frat) club to stand up for her and her rights. What happened to her is still traumatic and awful, but at least she has a support network to help her deal with it.
And that's the worst part of the Kobali. They don't just violate you, they take your very identity and force you to live with the people who violated you. No support network, no friends, nobody standing up for you or your rights, just brainwashing and constant emotional abuse.
Glad to hear that.
In regard of identity theft they are prety much like the Borg I feel.
Nobody sees the Borg assimilating whole worlds in a "grey area".
The Kobali might be doing that on a smaller scale, but saying that this puts into a grey area is like saying "TRIBBLE Germany killing 6 million Jews and trying to conquer the world, that's evil. But killing a few hundreds and conquering France... Grey area"...
My personal thoughts are that the Delta Alliance should commandeer the stasis pods from the Kobali and maintain them, as a sort of POW until a true a confirmed peace can be had with the Vaadwaur before giving them back to them, both living and dead. The Kobali agreed to ask permission from homeworlds before using bodies, the Vaadwaur should be no different at the same time ensuring they wouldnt be used as reinforcements for a new wave of assaults.
What we actually should do.... That's an interesting question.
Also remember that federation and federation ideals for that matter only make 1/3 of the allience, even less if you consider the recruited delta factions.
I personally like to "role play" my characters a lot, and my romulan, my klingon mercenary and the actual federation captain might have quiet diffrent opinions on that.
But from the fed pov.... With the prime directive and all.... May be we should not get involved at all. I sympathize with the vaadwaur on the Kobali matter, but until recently at least they were our enemy and had the intention to wipe us all out.
The kobalis I'll doing have been discussed already.
So why an intervention in the first place? May be that's simply not our business.
So from the federation char pov we should support negotiations, but under no circumstances should we pick up a gun and defend the Kobali at the current situation.
The only way I would see that happening (if my actual fleet admiral had any say in it) is offering to protect the Kobali IF they have given back the body's in the temple WITHOUT ANY CONDITION and the vaadwaur still attack in revenge. Only then, but not sooner.
But given that through the events in voyager it was already known what the Kobali do, we should have never aligned with them that closely in the first place.
For my romulan.... Well she would be romulan. I think the Romulans have a quiet particular relationship to the "death" topic after the destruction of romulus, and I think that the thought of any of the already few remaining romulans beeing turned into vaadwaur is very displeasing at best.
So my romulan character would do anything to keep the allience out of the conflict and hope the matter would "resolve itsself". Should the vaadwaur run into difficulties erasing the Kobali, which is unlikely, help would be provided secretly. May be even utilizing the seemingly friendly relationship we have now. (My romulans are not good guys, sorry)
My mercenaries pov would be a bit simpler.... It would really depend on who pays best. (And since he mostly works for my romulan rp wise..... Well... Doubt the Kobali could effort that^^)
In regard of identity theft they are prety much like the Borg I feel.
Nobody sees the Borg assimilating whole worlds in a "grey area".
The Kobali might be doing that on a smaller scale, but saying that this puts into a grey area is like saying "TRIBBLE Germany killing 6 million Jews and trying to conquer the world, that's evil. But killing a few hundreds and conquering France... Grey area"...
What we actually should do.... That's an interesting question.
Also remember that federation and federation ideals for that matter only make 1/3 of the allience, even less if you consider the recruited delta factions.
I personally like to "role play" my characters a lot, and my romulan, my klingon mercenary and the actual federation captain might have quiet diffrent opinions on that.
But from the fed pov.... With the prime directive and all.... May be we should not get involved at all. I sympathize with the vaadwaur on the Kobali matter, but until recently at least they were our enemy and had the intention to wipe us all out.
The kobalis I'll doing have been discussed already.
So why an intervention in the first place? May be that's simply not our business.
So from the federation char pov we should support negotiations, but under no circumstances should we pick up a gun and defend the Kobali at the current situation.
The only way I would see that happening (if my actual fleet admiral had any say in it) is offering to protect the Kobali IF they have given back the body's in the temple WITHOUT ANY CONDITION and the vaadwaur still attack in revenge. Only then, but not sooner.
But given that through the events in voyager it was already known what the Kobali do, we should have never aligned with them that closely in the first place.
For my romulan.... Well she would be romulan. I think the Romulans have a quiet particular relationship to the "death" topic after the destruction of romulus, and I think that the thought of any of the already few remaining romulans beeing turned into vaadwaur is very displeasing at best.
So my romulan character would do anything to keep the allience out of the conflict and hope the matter would "resolve itsself". Should the vaadwaur run into difficulties erasing the Kobali, which is unlikely, help would be provided secretly. May be even utilizing the seemingly friendly relationship we have now. (My romulans are not good guys, sorry)
My mercenaries pov would be a bit simpler.... It would really depend on who pays best. (And since he mostly works for my romulan rp wise..... Well... Doubt the Kobali could effort that^^)
Heres the thing the Alliance is involved, good or bad that can't be undone. The Vaadwaur have not just attacked the Kobali, but much of the quadrant. Walking away from the Kobali, whom the Alliance pledged to aid from the Vaadwaur incursion would look like the Alliance wont honor their promises. Even without the dilema of the stasis tubes, its most likely the Kobali would still have been a target.
Having the Kobali give back the Vaadwaur in stasis not only could be seen as rewarding the Vaadwaur for attacking by other species, it gives them fresh troops.
By the Alliance (ie Fed, Klink, and Rommies) caretaking the stasis pods as POW's, it adds a bargaining chip to have the Vaad' to act in good faith, stops the stasis bodies from being Kobalified and denies the Vaad' reinforces. Its really the best comprimise that can be offered, given the dilema.
Heres the thing the Alliance is involved, good or bad that can't be undone. The Vaadwaur have not just attacked the Kobali, but much of the quadrant. Walking away from the Kobali, whom the Alliance pledged to aid from the Vaadwaur incursion would look like the Alliance wont honor their promises. Even without the dilema of the stasis tubes, its most likely the Kobali would still have been a target.
Having the Kobali give back the Vaadwaur in stasis not only could be seen as rewarding the Vaadwaur for attacking by other species, it gives them fresh troops.
By the Alliance (ie Fed, Klink, and Rommies) caretaking the stasis pods as POW's, it adds a bargaining chip to have the Vaad' to act in good faith, stops the stasis bodies from being Kobalified and denies the Vaad' reinforces. Its really the best comprimise that can be offered, given the dilema.
Well at this point, unless I have missunderstood the story entirely, the actual war with the vaadwaur is over.
Leaving only the vaadwaur Kobali conflict, and supporting the Kobalis ill moral habits here Stands also in the way of a long lasting peace with the vaadwaur.... Which is something we will ultimately want (well may be not the Klingons they like that war stuff).
And I wouldn't worry at all about the "alliances broken promises".
While this may not be the reason why I found the Kobali that disgusting, they kept secrets over secrets, which included the very reason why the vaadwaur attacked.
To get back of that of this threads tradition of very dark examples:
If a friend of you asks a favor, and you promise him to help.... And you find out the favor he's asking is helping him to murder someone.... Would really feel obliged to keep your promise of helping him?
And as for "what to do with the body's while the war was still on"....
Well we should have given the Kobali a simple ultimatum: either we take the content of the temple (alive and death) into our custody alone or they are on their own.
Although here in particular romulans and Klingons might act diffrent for pure pragmatism.... As long as Kobali zombies kill vaadwaur they probably would not intervene in any way.
Well at this point, unless I have missunderstood the story entirely, the actual war with the vaadwaur is over.
Leaving only the vaadwaur Kobali conflict, and supporting the Kobalis ill moral habits here Stands also in the way of a long lasting peace with the vaadwaur.... Which is something we will ultimately want (well may be not the Klingons they like that war stuff).
And I wouldn't worry at all about the "alliances broken promises".
While this may not be the reason why I found the Kobali that disgusting, they kept secrets over secrets, which included the very reason why the vaadwaur attacked.
To get back of that of this threads tradition of very dark examples:
If a friend of you asks a favor, and you promise him to help.... And you find out the favor he's asking is helping him to murder someone.... Would really feel obliged to keep your promise of helping him?
And as for "what to do with the body's while the war was still on"....
Well we should have given the Kobali a simple ultimatum: either we take the content of the temple (alive and death) into our custody alone or they are on their own.
Although here in particular romulans and Klingons might act diffrent for pure pragmatism.... As long as Kobali zombies kill vaadwaur they probably would not intervene in any way.
The problem with your analogy is that the request for defense was up front, the terms were up front, not us finding out later that we would murder a person after we agreed to help ( never agree to a favor without knowing what action the favor is). We just didnt know part of the reason for the the fervor of the attack ( they most likely would have been attacked like the rest of the Delta Quadrant).
We already knew they recycled the dead, so that wasnt a surprise, so that wasn't an out. The holding of the stasis pods was an issue, to which my previous remark suggested the resolution. The lying was a problem to me and would need to be resolved, but not in the form of an immediate abandoning of them.
As a point of reference, the Allied Powers allied with Stalin, a man that the Allies knew that he killed millions of Russians and Soviets under his rule, before WWII, but still was a stakeholder in the war against German Fascism. Should the US not sent the Soviets tanks, planes and other support?
The problem with your analogy is that the request for defense was up front, the terms were up front, not us finding out later that we would murder a person after we agreed to help ( never agree to a favor without knowing what action the favor is). We just didnt know part of the reason for the the fervor of the attack ( they most likely would have been attacked like the rest of the Delta Quadrant).
We already knew they recycled the dead, so that wasnt a surprise, so that wasn't an out. The holding of the stasis pods was an issue, to which my previous remark suggested the resolution. The lying was a problem to me and would need to be resolved, but not in the form of an immediate abandoning of them.
As a point of reference, the Allied Powers allied with Stalin, a man that the Allies knew that he killed millions of Russians and Soviets under his rule, before WWII, but still was a stakeholder in the war against German Fascism. Should the US not sent the Soviets tanks, planes and other support?
Sure. But then when the war's over, Hitler's dead, and Stalin's still cheerfully abusing sentient rights, we drop him like a hot potato.
And also, Stalin had an army. Stalin had weapons. Stalin had the vast, cold waste of Russia to get Hitler's troops lost and frozen to death in. The Kobali have nothing; their single combat-capable ship is made almost entirely with Alliance technology. Everything else they had was no match for the Federation's least competent command crew in a t4 science vessel 30 years ago.
The problem with your analogy is that the request for defense was up front, the terms were up front, not us finding out later that we would murder a person after we agreed to help ( never agree to a favor without knowing what action the favor is). We just didnt know part of the reason for the the fervor of the attack ( they most likely would have been attacked like the rest of the Delta Quadrant).
There was a particular vaadwaur interest in the Kobali world. The Kobali knew why and when asked lied about it/ withheld crucial information.
We do not know to the letter how the original terms of the help were, but I'm prety sure they were asked and sharing critical information was part of the agreement. Anything else is unreasonable.
And assuming that, the Kobali violated the agreement.... Not even providing the little they had to do for free help. There is no reason why the allience should still hold up their end of the bargain.
We already knew they recycled the dead, so that wasnt a surprise, so that wasn't an out. The holding of the stasis pods was an issue, to which my previous remark suggested the resolution. The lying was a problem to me and would need to be resolved, but not in the form of an immediate abandoning of them.
That's why think we should not have become involved in the first place.
As a point of reference, the Allied Powers allied with Stalin, a man that the Allies knew that he killed millions of Russians and Soviets under his rule, before WWII, but still was a stakeholder in the war against German Fascism. Should the US not sent the Soviets tanks, planes and other support?
Well not after the war is over.
And now we are supposed the evolved highly moral federation that keeps up their moral prickles no matter what.
The U.S. in WWII.... Well.... They used 2 nuclear weapons on Japan.... And here in Germany they almost completely destroyed several cities including the one I live in (97 % of my city was destroyed) not only without regards for civilian casualties but very well knowing that there wasn't a single soldier or military asset here.
Not that we didn't have it coming with Hitler and stuff.... But in terms of military warfare arguing with the Americans actions in wwII.... That's not moral high ground.
Alling rp with the Russians might have been a necessary evil then.... But we certainly don't need the Kobali to fight the vaadwaur.
The U.S. gained military strength through alliening with the Russians, the allience looses strength through wasting resources on one planet to keep the Kobali practicing their necromancy.
Sure. But then when the war's over, Hitler's dead, and Stalin's still cheerfully abusing sentient rights, we drop him like a hot potato.
And also, Stalin had an army. Stalin had weapons. Stalin had the vast, cold waste of Russia to get Hitler's troops lost and frozen to death in. The Kobali have nothing; their single combat-capable ship is made almost entirely with Alliance technology. Everything else they had was no match for the Federation's least competent command crew in a t4 science vessel 30 years ago.
Sure. But then when the war's over, Hitler's dead, and Stalin's still cheerfully abusing sentient rights, we drop him like a hot potato.
And also, Stalin had an army. Stalin had weapons. Stalin had the vast, cold waste of Russia to get Hitler's troops lost and frozen to death in. The Kobali have nothing; their single combat-capable ship is made almost entirely with Alliance technology. Everything else they had was no match for the Federation's least competent command crew in a t4 science vessel 30 years ago.
First paragraph of yours:
And when the war with the Vaad' ends, and if the Kobali didn't agree to consulting a species race before performing "rebirth", the Alliance should have dropped them, but they agreed. I think the Harry Kim rebirth was done mostly by whats her name, not on her gov'ts accord. She seemed a little bit too "crazy ex-girlfriendish" in that cut scene. I am still dissapointed about the Alliance not confiscating the stasis pods though, that should have been a condition and a deal breaker.
Also, do you really think the Vaad' would've ignored the Kobali if the did'nt have those stasis pods? Highly unlikely.
Paragraph 2:
The Kobali have medical technology, and advanced enough civilization, and a logistics point of which both sides could use as a strategic area that the other would need to capture to use its natural resources. There are 't a militaty power, but they are a stakeholder in the Delta Quadrant.
As far as Stalin goes, he had bodies and he had vast frozen lands to grind with. He didn't have enough tanks, combat aircraft and manufacturing capabilty until the US sent them, under Lend-Lease. If Hitler had been smart and held ground and not mounted an offensive in time to get mired in Russian Wintertime, without the outside supplies, Russias outcome would've been different.
At the time of Voyager, the Intrepid class wouldve have been its timeline equivalent of T5, or I guess T6 now.
Comments
Bull. There's already plenty of evidence in the Kobali Front for a chain of command and a recognizable rank structure. These are basic common-sense military practices, as is desertion, disobedience of orders, and insubordination being crimes, and a society would have to be radically different in form (ref: the Borg) for any other format to actually work. There is no evidence for that with the Kobali.
For an example, the geth in Mass Effect are a direct democracy, making decisions by consensus of all geth. That doesn't work for species who are not computer programs that communicate and think at the speed of light. If you tried to run a human ship as a democracy in the same manner, as Gene Roddenberry originally proposed, you'd be dead. There's no time to verbally or textually poll every last redshirt on command decisions when the ship is under attack and one mistake means everybody dies, so the captain must necessarily be able to give an order and have that order obeyed regardless of Random Crewman John Smith's personal opinion. A legally enforced chain of command with penalties for disobedience is what allows that to happen.
Occam's Razor: The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is usually correct. Q'Ret acted according to standard Kobali procedure with the authority of the Kobali government, and the Kobali number only in the low millions at best.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
But frankly, I see the facts, and I get a different conclusion; that doesn't mean that it's anymore right or wrong than your view of it. There's a good reason people can have entirely different views on the same subject, even same facts - they don't necessarily lead to the same conclusions
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Fine. How do you think it works? And cite evidence for your conclusions. You're the one making the claim, so back it up.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I see a (very) over-protective father overruling his daughter's wishes, which is extreme - and a group of Kobali who either agree/understand/willing enough to go along with it to avoid trouble (likely all of the above, given individual considerations), which is definitely in the morally grey area. And this can be further morally grey if he is disobeying orders and/or going rogue, in addition. Still, that says that that particular group looks at their cultural practice as sacred, and will fanatically do anything to keep it so
So they have procedures like such, viewpoints of such, and Kobali who think or go along with such - but, even with all that, my personal opinion is that implications and one group/one father/three ships doesn't = their entire cultural behavior/viewpoints/etc. And I wouldn't like to assume such anyway, even without further proof; our own race is very diverse, and even if the diversity is lower in other species, it must exist to a certain extent.
On the Kobali homeworld missions, they've asked for help, because their survival is being threatened. And it's this survival issue that, similar to the Bynar example, means that they think they can't take the risk of the Alliance going away by telling them upfront. So, they tell several general lies (that they aren't keeping Vaadwaur prisoners, that they don't know why they aren't pushing more heavily toward the temple, etc), and keep maintaining those same lies.
It's certainly no excuse, either for lying in the first place or keeping critical information withheld, but imo, the reasons why need to be considered rather than outright dismissed - they could have thought it out better, true, but still. And it isn't a line-crosser, at least yet, for me. And professional officers would have to take it into consideration as well, because it's part of their job, so our in-game characters have some reason for the restraint
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
So in your opinion, maybe I am a monster - in mine, I simply have tolerance and understanding for a lot of things, which sorta comes from being ambivalent. But even so, your opinion doesn't give you the right to state that my opinion is invalid based on anything I've said - not to mention that calling me a monster in the first place is uncalled for, even if you think I am. And by doing so, you're only digging yourself in deeper credibility-wise with such a rant
Also, you're wrong on one point; my arguments aren't purely based off my moral compass, but rather thinking and analyzing (which I keep separate from how I feel about something in most cases)
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
My character Tsin'xing
Therefore you have no basis to continue stating your 'I'm a monster' opinion on me. You've already stated it, and are instead merely continually forcing it on me in the form of an insult/personal attack - which, as you should know, isn't acceptable no matter what on this forum
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
attacking other players is VERY clearly defined in the ToS as being forbidden, NO EXCEPTIONS
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Yeah, TRIBBLE it, I'm deleting everything I've said because I'm clearly banging my head against a wall here. Nothing I say will convince trek21 that the Kobali are violating sentient rights, and everything he says makes me physically ill, so there's really no point in saying anything.
I'd just like to say, that everything you've said makes me physically ill, and I'd be glad if you edited your posts and then tried to say that stuff in public. You need a lesson that I won't and can't give you.
Maybe for you, you think I need a lesson - but at the very least, I only think this opinion; what I feel is somewhat different + separate from that opinion, and even then, I don't force any of those opinions on others. At most, I'd just state it, and that'd be it
That's all
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You're still making me sick. I have three friends who read what you said, one of whom was r*ped after being drugged on a date, and whose attacker you would consider to be morally gray. All three are telling me to keep calling you out on your BS.
You're doing nothing to improve the situation at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.
But at this point, why not just end it and stop, period? I certainly am as of this post, if only to prevent you from getting as angry as you did earlier and restart this
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You're only explaining your own issues, dude. You've reduced me to vomiting in a toilet, and one of my friends to a shaking mess being comforted by two other friends, because she has just been slammed with unequivocal evidence that there are people like you in the world who don't think that her assault was an assault.
Every single thing that you have said so far has made you look more immoral. I would advise you to stop and go get some serious training, preferably from someone familiar with domestic and sexual abuse, because you clearly don't understand how severe it is.
I'm stopping, too, if only because trying to make you see how awful the things you're saying are is as pointless as slamming my head against a brick wall.
It belongs in some post apocalyptic horror story, but you just had to cash in on that Zombie trend, didnt you Cryptic. Even if it made no sense at all. Does CBS even know what you are doing with their IP?
Your story isnt making sense. its disgusting and insulting. Just like your tedious level cap grind, and your heaps of npc hitpoints that you laughingly call 'increased difficulty'
Close this thread and ban my account.
As far as the Delta alliance's actions go, they've basically fallen for the sunk-costs fallacy. The Delta Alliance was trying to ally with everyone they could - frankly, compared to the amoral space pirates and bounty hunters we had to choose from, the Kobali looked pretty good (In fact, I'd still pick the Kobali over the Heirarchy). After discovering the Kobali's secrets, a good portion of starfleet hid behind regulations to pretend it didn't matter at all. I disagree with that choice both in and out of character: this is something that we need to get the full details on, so we don't need to make guesses and inferences about how bad it is. But since we're still at war on multiple fronts, we haven't had time to sit down and get the big answers.
I can see both sides of the argument.
worffan101, i agree that the Kobali are getting off too lightly, but you've done a poor job of giving your point. All the examples you've given are truly terrible, but they're too extreme in comparison to what the Kobali have actually done. You read like you're trying to insist that gray and obsidian are exactly the same, or that 2 is greater than 5 because it's an even number like 8. The comparison isn't quite good enough for everyone to agree with.
Again, I believe you have ground to argue on, but you're stumbling over your words!
I hope your friend doesn't take trek21's dismissal to heart. What she went through was truly terrible, and I don't believe anyone here meant to imply that her pain was irrelevant or false. Rather, the science fiction is too distant and bizarre to compare to real pain like hers.
As for myself, I don't believe that the Kobali are in the right here, but neither are the Vaudwaur. Nor do I think the Kobali as a race are irredeemable. Certainly not moreso than plenty of other races we've seen and a good number of us play as. Given time, they can be made to face the flaws of their society and overcome them. But it needs to happen onscreen, and hiding behind General Order 1, Section B won't solve anything.
I wouldn't call it the worst (and still think that a true way allied with dominion forces after the events of what you leave behind is the most retardetet piece of story telling since jar jar trek...).
Actually the story was quiet entertaining on the first play through. And it's always nice to see some kind of moral dilemma in Star Trek..... Just the one sided way of dealing with it... That's a problem.
In character that makes sense yes...
I disagree on that. Sience fiction stuff is never disconnected from reality or possible reality. It usually parallels something in reality.
And every comparison I find for the kobalis actions, no matter how hard I try to find a "grey" one, involve ****, abduction and worst.
No matter how you turn it, what they do is forcing their will, their culture on our people as much aus the vaadwaur, for their procreation. On an extremly personal level (altering the dna). Not wanting to hurt someone like worffans friend, but that is actually worst then ****.
Disagreed again. After the main conflict the vaadwaur are at the Kobali world only for the bodys. They agreed to cease fire if the Kobali would turn over their people, the Kobali refuse and continue to violate the vaadwaur.
Who are clearly sick of the mere thought of what the Kobali do their people, so clearly not giving anything resembling consent.
And for the Kobali....min my opinion they are done. They lost their ability to procreate, and that was their own fault. That means for once the actual Kobali probably have already died out. Also it means their only way of continuing their existence is on the expense of others and (looking at the vaadwaur) not only without consent but clearly AGAINST consent.
And that's the worst part of the Kobali. They don't just violate you, they take your very identity and force you to live with the people who violated you. No support network, no friends, nobody standing up for you or your rights, just brainwashing and constant emotional abuse.
My personal thoughts are that the Delta Alliance should commandeer the stasis pods from the Kobali and maintain them, as a sort of POW until a true a confirmed peace can be had with the Vaadwaur before giving them back to them, both living and dead. The Kobali agreed to ask permission from homeworlds before using bodies, the Vaadwaur should be no different at the same time ensuring they wouldnt be used as reinforcements for a new wave of assaults.
Glad to hear that.
In regard of identity theft they are prety much like the Borg I feel.
Nobody sees the Borg assimilating whole worlds in a "grey area".
The Kobali might be doing that on a smaller scale, but saying that this puts into a grey area is like saying "TRIBBLE Germany killing 6 million Jews and trying to conquer the world, that's evil. But killing a few hundreds and conquering France... Grey area"...
What we actually should do.... That's an interesting question.
Also remember that federation and federation ideals for that matter only make 1/3 of the allience, even less if you consider the recruited delta factions.
I personally like to "role play" my characters a lot, and my romulan, my klingon mercenary and the actual federation captain might have quiet diffrent opinions on that.
But from the fed pov.... With the prime directive and all.... May be we should not get involved at all. I sympathize with the vaadwaur on the Kobali matter, but until recently at least they were our enemy and had the intention to wipe us all out.
The kobalis I'll doing have been discussed already.
So why an intervention in the first place? May be that's simply not our business.
So from the federation char pov we should support negotiations, but under no circumstances should we pick up a gun and defend the Kobali at the current situation.
The only way I would see that happening (if my actual fleet admiral had any say in it) is offering to protect the Kobali IF they have given back the body's in the temple WITHOUT ANY CONDITION and the vaadwaur still attack in revenge. Only then, but not sooner.
But given that through the events in voyager it was already known what the Kobali do, we should have never aligned with them that closely in the first place.
For my romulan.... Well she would be romulan. I think the Romulans have a quiet particular relationship to the "death" topic after the destruction of romulus, and I think that the thought of any of the already few remaining romulans beeing turned into vaadwaur is very displeasing at best.
So my romulan character would do anything to keep the allience out of the conflict and hope the matter would "resolve itsself". Should the vaadwaur run into difficulties erasing the Kobali, which is unlikely, help would be provided secretly. May be even utilizing the seemingly friendly relationship we have now. (My romulans are not good guys, sorry)
My mercenaries pov would be a bit simpler.... It would really depend on who pays best. (And since he mostly works for my romulan rp wise..... Well... Doubt the Kobali could effort that^^)
Heres the thing the Alliance is involved, good or bad that can't be undone. The Vaadwaur have not just attacked the Kobali, but much of the quadrant. Walking away from the Kobali, whom the Alliance pledged to aid from the Vaadwaur incursion would look like the Alliance wont honor their promises. Even without the dilema of the stasis tubes, its most likely the Kobali would still have been a target.
Having the Kobali give back the Vaadwaur in stasis not only could be seen as rewarding the Vaadwaur for attacking by other species, it gives them fresh troops.
By the Alliance (ie Fed, Klink, and Rommies) caretaking the stasis pods as POW's, it adds a bargaining chip to have the Vaad' to act in good faith, stops the stasis bodies from being Kobalified and denies the Vaad' reinforces. Its really the best comprimise that can be offered, given the dilema.
Well at this point, unless I have missunderstood the story entirely, the actual war with the vaadwaur is over.
Leaving only the vaadwaur Kobali conflict, and supporting the Kobalis ill moral habits here Stands also in the way of a long lasting peace with the vaadwaur.... Which is something we will ultimately want (well may be not the Klingons they like that war stuff).
And I wouldn't worry at all about the "alliances broken promises".
While this may not be the reason why I found the Kobali that disgusting, they kept secrets over secrets, which included the very reason why the vaadwaur attacked.
To get back of that of this threads tradition of very dark examples:
If a friend of you asks a favor, and you promise him to help.... And you find out the favor he's asking is helping him to murder someone.... Would really feel obliged to keep your promise of helping him?
And as for "what to do with the body's while the war was still on"....
Well we should have given the Kobali a simple ultimatum: either we take the content of the temple (alive and death) into our custody alone or they are on their own.
Although here in particular romulans and Klingons might act diffrent for pure pragmatism.... As long as Kobali zombies kill vaadwaur they probably would not intervene in any way.
The problem with your analogy is that the request for defense was up front, the terms were up front, not us finding out later that we would murder a person after we agreed to help ( never agree to a favor without knowing what action the favor is). We just didnt know part of the reason for the the fervor of the attack ( they most likely would have been attacked like the rest of the Delta Quadrant).
We already knew they recycled the dead, so that wasnt a surprise, so that wasn't an out. The holding of the stasis pods was an issue, to which my previous remark suggested the resolution. The lying was a problem to me and would need to be resolved, but not in the form of an immediate abandoning of them.
As a point of reference, the Allied Powers allied with Stalin, a man that the Allies knew that he killed millions of Russians and Soviets under his rule, before WWII, but still was a stakeholder in the war against German Fascism. Should the US not sent the Soviets tanks, planes and other support?
Sure. But then when the war's over, Hitler's dead, and Stalin's still cheerfully abusing sentient rights, we drop him like a hot potato.
And also, Stalin had an army. Stalin had weapons. Stalin had the vast, cold waste of Russia to get Hitler's troops lost and frozen to death in. The Kobali have nothing; their single combat-capable ship is made almost entirely with Alliance technology. Everything else they had was no match for the Federation's least competent command crew in a t4 science vessel 30 years ago.
There was a particular vaadwaur interest in the Kobali world. The Kobali knew why and when asked lied about it/ withheld crucial information.
We do not know to the letter how the original terms of the help were, but I'm prety sure they were asked and sharing critical information was part of the agreement. Anything else is unreasonable.
And assuming that, the Kobali violated the agreement.... Not even providing the little they had to do for free help. There is no reason why the allience should still hold up their end of the bargain.
That's why think we should not have become involved in the first place.
Well not after the war is over.
And now we are supposed the evolved highly moral federation that keeps up their moral prickles no matter what.
The U.S. in WWII.... Well.... They used 2 nuclear weapons on Japan.... And here in Germany they almost completely destroyed several cities including the one I live in (97 % of my city was destroyed) not only without regards for civilian casualties but very well knowing that there wasn't a single soldier or military asset here.
Not that we didn't have it coming with Hitler and stuff.... But in terms of military warfare arguing with the Americans actions in wwII.... That's not moral high ground.
Alling rp with the Russians might have been a necessary evil then.... But we certainly don't need the Kobali to fight the vaadwaur.
The U.S. gained military strength through alliening with the Russians, the allience looses strength through wasting resources on one planet to keep the Kobali practicing their necromancy.
Also this.
First paragraph of yours:
And when the war with the Vaad' ends, and if the Kobali didn't agree to consulting a species race before performing "rebirth", the Alliance should have dropped them, but they agreed. I think the Harry Kim rebirth was done mostly by whats her name, not on her gov'ts accord. She seemed a little bit too "crazy ex-girlfriendish" in that cut scene. I am still dissapointed about the Alliance not confiscating the stasis pods though, that should have been a condition and a deal breaker.
Also, do you really think the Vaad' would've ignored the Kobali if the did'nt have those stasis pods? Highly unlikely.
Paragraph 2:
The Kobali have medical technology, and advanced enough civilization, and a logistics point of which both sides could use as a strategic area that the other would need to capture to use its natural resources. There are 't a militaty power, but they are a stakeholder in the Delta Quadrant.
As far as Stalin goes, he had bodies and he had vast frozen lands to grind with. He didn't have enough tanks, combat aircraft and manufacturing capabilty until the US sent them, under Lend-Lease. If Hitler had been smart and held ground and not mounted an offensive in time to get mired in Russian Wintertime, without the outside supplies, Russias outcome would've been different.
At the time of Voyager, the Intrepid class wouldve have been its timeline equivalent of T5, or I guess T6 now.