I would add that too many people here are looking at the Kobali from the perspective of human morality - a particular flavor of human morality, at that - and trying to apply that to an alien culture that has reanimated exactly two humans.
Just because some of us humans find Kobali reanimation distasteful doesn't mean other Fed cultures (or other Alpha/Beta Quadrant cultures) do. More to the point, it certainly doesn't mean the Kobali's Delta Quadrant neighbors (from whom they presumably get the lion's share of their non-Kobali bodies) do either.
Apart from the Vaadwaur, we know almost nothing about what any other Delta Quadrant culture thinks of the practice, or whether they would approve of their own people getting Kobalized. The biggest clue we have is the fact that the Kobali are not already hated or treated as pariahs by the other races seen in Delta Rising. That tells me they either don't have a problem with Kobali reanimation in the first place, or have merely not seen fit to do anything to stop it beyond the most obvious measures like, well, not disposing of their own dead anywhere that the Kobali can get their hands on them.
It's not the use of the dead, period, that's a problem. It's the use of the dead without consent from either the person or the next-of-kin. They do this whole thing about wanting respect for their own customs but give none in return.
More critically they have this habit of kidnapping and brainwashing anybody who rejects being Kobalified. That's systematic domestic abuse.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It's not the use of the dead, period, that's a problem. It's the use of the dead without consent from either the person or the next-of-kin. They do this whole thing about wanting respect for their own customs but give none in return.
More critically they have this habit of kidnapping and brainwashing anybody who rejects being Kobalified. That's systematic domestic abuse.
But if I remember correctly, their appearances on Voyager was from one ship, and one 'father' doing all that - exactly where is the proof that that's the exact way/practice of all Kobali?
Even with ST's history of 'everyone is under this hat' type of races, there are variations of who's willing to go to this extreme, who will not, and other such differing views/opinions on their race-wide aspect. So while the issue still stands, applying that one example/mindset to the entire race just seems premature, is all
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
But if I remember correctly, their appearances on Voyager was from one ship, and one 'father' doing all that - exactly where is the proof that that's the exact way/practice of all Kobali?
Even with ST's history of 'everyone is under this hat' type of races, there are variations of who's willing to go to this extreme, who will not, and other such differing views/opinions on their race-wide aspect. So while the issue still stands, applying that one example/mindset to the entire race just seems premature, is all
They had a specific term for people who remembered their past lives, and it was IIRC at the very least heavily implied that the scumbag's actions were standard procedure.
While I don't doubt that there are very wonderful individual Kobali, their culture and government encourage and abet outright evil actions and behavior.
They had a specific term for people who remembered their past lives, and it was IIRC at the very least heavily implied that the scumbag's actions were standard procedure.
While I don't doubt that there are very wonderful individual Kobali, their culture and government encourage and abet outright evil actions and behavior.
The problem with that is, the Kobali seem a lot more like children imo (mentally speaking), only knowing their way and doing what they can to keep it going. And like children, there's not really any harmful or malicious intent behind a lot of their actions, or their cultural rebirth thing
Yes, that aspect doesn't excuse it, and it also doesn't make them saints, but it also doesn't label them as irredeemable manipulative monsters - at least, not to me. And if there's some good, it should be factored in
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The problem with that is, the Kobali seem a lot more like children imo (mentally speaking), only knowing their way and doing what they can to keep it going. And like children, there's not really any harmful or malicious intent behind a lot of their actions, or their cultural rebirth thing
Yes, that aspect doesn't excuse it, and it also doesn't make them saints, but it also doesn't label them as irredeemable manipulative monsters - at least, not to me. And if there's some good, it should be factored in
Also... it was demonstrated in the Voyager ep that it was physically impossible for Jhetleya to go back to being Lyndsey Ballard. When she tried eating what she remembered as food she liked, she hated it so much she couldn't finish it.
And as has been pointed out, many times, most Kobali DON'T remember at all. Which might explain their na
As a person that is a big Klingon fan and one that mainly plays a KDF character, Kobali "rebirth" is an abhorrent idea. Any dead warrior could be pulled from Sto'vo'kor just to bolster the population of an alien species.
As a person that is a big Klingon fan and one that mainly plays a KDF character, Kobali "rebirth" is an abhorrent idea. Any dead warrior could be pulled from Sto'vo'kor just to bolster the population of an alien species.
Two things from canon would seem to suggest the Klingons wouldn't really have much of a problem with it, or at least not enough to make enemies of the Kobali because of it.
First, TNG "Heart of Glory" makes pretty clear that once a warrior is dead, they really don't give a targ's hiney what is done with the body afterward. It's basically an empty shell to them. Now, it's true that as of that episode they probably weren't counting on anyone being able to resurrect the corpse, but even if the Klingons find that abhorrent, their don't care attitude toward treatment of the body makes the solution ridiculously easy: Destroy the body (vaporize it, burn it Viking-style, whatever) so that the Kobali cannot use it.
Second, Dr. Bashir did something quite similar to Kurn in DS9 "Sons of Mogh", that the Klingons apparently had no objection to even though they and the Federation were on the outs at that time. Bashir basically erased Kurn's memories and implanted someone else's, then arranged for some random Klingon dude to "adopt" Kurn as his son. In effect, Bashir killed Kurn - not in an honorable way - and created someone else to inhabit Kurn's former body. Sound familiar?
Two things from canon would seem to suggest the Klingons wouldn't really have much of a problem with it, or at least not enough to make enemies of the Kobali because of it.
First, TNG "Heart of Glory" makes pretty clear that once a warrior is dead, they really don't give a targ's hiney what is done with the body afterward. It's basically an empty shell to them. Now, it's true that as of that episode they probably weren't counting on anyone being able to resurrect the corpse, but even if the Klingons find that abhorrent, their don't care attitude toward treatment of the body makes the solution ridiculously easy: Destroy the body (vaporize it, burn it Viking-style, whatever) so that the Kobali cannot use it.
Second, Dr. Bashir did something quite similar to Kurn in DS9 "Sons of Mogh", that the Klingons apparently had no objection to even though they and the Federation were on the outs at that time. Bashir basically erased Kurn's memories and implanted someone else's, then arranged for some random Klingon dude to "adopt" Kurn as his son. In effect, Bashir killed Kurn - not in an honorable way - and created someone else to inhabit Kurn's former body. Sound familiar?
Your first comment was right on par. Klingons are like the Borg in that fashion, eliminate the remains and move on.
But as for your second comment about Kurn? He did that because there was no out for Kurn. The family of Mogh was dishonored to the point where Kurn thought he would end up in Gre'thor period, and there was no way for him to ever regain his honor or his dignity.
What Bashir did was a blessing. He gave Kurn a new life, a new face, and the chance to reach Sto'vo'kor once more. I think that form of "rebirth" (and that's really REALLY pushing the envelope here) is far from a dishonor. The person in that body was still Kurn in spirit, it was just no longer weighed down by the sins and dishonor of the former life. So he didn't kill Kurn, he just killed his past, and gave him a newer, better future.
But that aside, I don't think the Klingons really would take kindly to what the Kobali were doing, but as long as they didn't do it to any warrior of the empire, I highly doubt the Klingons would actually truly care.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It does challenge you. It takes a situation in which someone would be comfortable with, saving people who are being attacked for no reason, to there being a reason, to there being a thing they withheld from you that can and is questionable.
It WOULD challenge you, IF you had to make moral decisions about it. But you don't, can't. You're just doing what you're told. At no point in the Kobali arc do you even get to say what you think of the whole thing. Captain Prime Directive or whatever the Benzite's name was comes to rebuff Harry when he objects, and your character just stands there and does nothing.
The storyline would work beautifully with a lower-ranked player character. Starfleet has a certain "culture justifies anything" -attitude so if the player were subordinate to the other characters, everything would be plausible. With Admirals...not so much. The urge to pull rank on Captain Prime Directive is so irresistible it hurts that the plot forces you into being a silent observer.
The resurrection itself is not bad. I agree with the Kobali girl from Dust to Dust who's name I can't spell, it isn't worse than being dead. But there is obviously brainwashing included, and that's unquestionably evil. Because people don't leave everything they know behind, change their name and go live with total strangers on an alien planet just because they don't remember some details of their past.
This means that the only ethically sound course of action is to not create a situation where there's a chance they were brought back against their will. Since they can't give permission, it's more ethical to assume that they aren't giving one.
This is contrary to first responder procedure, who will try to save their life while they're in the middle of trying to commit suicide.
It's also contrary to basic first aid training - if the casualty is unable to give consent, consent for saving their life is implied.
First off, doesn't there exist (along with organ donor cards, wills, etc.) some sort of bracelet / marker that first responders need to check for to see if the victim is one of those "no medical treatment" types?
Second, I agree, the "railroading" of the characters in this storyline is so heavy handed it ruins what could have been an excellent dilemma with tons of drama potential...
For example, Admiral Player sides with Kim at the first objection. Situation goes south, PC has to "save the day" more as reflex / "protect home interests" than siding with the Kobali. Same types of "guidance" keeps occuring till the temple scene, where Benzite comes in and says "I don't care your personal feelings, Quinn / Council / D'Tan / whatever high rank you want has determined that we need to assist these guys, now go in and do your duty."
Depending on exactly how that gets written, the railroading becomes much more plausible and maybe even an actual ethical dilemma.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Yeah, the captain who interrupts you is simply reminding you of Starfleet policy concerning the matter. Besides.... the Vaadwaur would be attacking even if there were no stasis pods. why? because they're conquerors. It's their way of life.
to paraphrase Jhetleya.... "and that's worse than being dead?"
It doesn't seem very Star Trek to mindlessly accept the bad guy that has been spoon fed to me. The Star Trek I grew up with has generally included the idea that understanding is better than conflict. It kills the immersion for me as an admiral to be told by a captain to shut up and keep killing the Vaudwaar.
First off, doesn't there exist (along with organ donor cards, wills, etc.) some sort of bracelet / marker that first responders need to check for to see if the victim is one of those "no medical treatment" types?
No.
Organ donor cards, living wills, and DNRs do exist, but has nothing to do with first responder procedures.
Note that even if you refuse treatment while conscious, the first responder is required to stay with you until you go unconscious as a result of refusing treatment. Once you're unconscious they will have implied consent.
(If they actually left when you refused treatment, fell unconscious, and died, they'd be at serious liability.)
Yeah, the captain who interrupts you is simply reminding you of Starfleet policy concerning the matter.
Indeed. And things like this are exactly what make this game decidedly NOT Star Trek. Many an episode involved conflict with higher-ranking officials (Admirals, usually) which, in the end, was won by our heroic captain, getting to the bottom of the mystery and finding out the truth. Here, we're a bloody Admiral - One of the TRIBBLE you normally see GIVING the questionable orders, not taking them - and we're sitting here being railroaded through like a puppy dog? And by a captain, no less... If I were truly my character, I'd still be at Starfleet Command on Earth trying as hard as I can to get Starfleet, and the Federation in general, to stop supporting these people, not out there shooting the Vaadwaur senseless with a fancy phaser like some MACO Infantry goon.
Indeed. And things like this are exactly what make this game decidedly NOT Star Trek. Many an episode involved conflict with higher-ranking officials (Admirals, usually) which, in the end, was won by our heroic captain, getting to the bottom of the mystery and finding out the truth. Here, we're a bloody Admiral - One of the TRIBBLE you normally see GIVING the questionable orders, not taking them - and we're sitting here being railroaded through like a puppy dog? And by a captain, no less... If I were truly my character, I'd still be at Starfleet Command on Earth trying as hard as I can to get Starfleet, and the Federation in general, to stop supporting these people, not out there shooting the Vaadwaur senseless with a fancy phaser like some MACO Infantry goon.
"questionable"? how many times have the Vaadwaur demonstrated they want to kill you by this point? The Kobali don't want us dead, thus they're a better ally.
It doesn't seem very Star Trek to mindlessly accept the bad guy that has been spoon fed to me. The Star Trek I grew up with has generally included the idea that understanding is better than conflict. It kills the immersion for me as an admiral to be told by a captain to shut up and keep killing the Vaudwaar.
whats more is there to understand about an Entire race that treats the universe as its own personal lebensraum
They have already been shown to kill indiscriminately in patrol missions, and they communicate their personal enjoyment to their victims as they slaughter them.
But sure, lets Understand the aggressive, expansionist race who named their own faction the Vaadwuar Supremacy
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
It doesn't seem very Star Trek to mindlessly accept the bad guy that has been spoon fed to me. The Star Trek I grew up with has generally included the idea that understanding is better than conflict. It kills the immersion for me as an admiral to be told by a captain to shut up and keep killing the Vaudwaar.
Well I agree with the view on Star Trek.
But to be fair I don't thing this particular arc does injustice to that, after all, we are at war (which may be kind of un Trekkie but still a thing in that universe) with the vaadwaur. Also we cooperate with reasonable vaadwaur to end the war (which is prety much the point where the story ends right now).
So in terms of "trek ness" Sto did far worst, just look at that borderline TRIBBLE true way plot.
As for the Kobaki: agreed. They are despicable and if I could I'd rather side with the vaadwaur in that matter.
From my rp-perspective my fed captain only helps them because of orders, my kdf-mercenary sees more advantage for himself (and role play wise stole their flagship) and my romulan has a nice tholaron device ready for the very second the Kobaki loose their use....
This is contrary to first responder procedure, who will try to save their life while they're in the middle of trying to commit suicide.
It's also contrary to basic first aid training - if the casualty is unable to give consent, consent for saving their life is implied.
It's also not a first response situation. So what you wrote has no bearing on it. It was also wrong when markhawkman said the situation was comparable, but I decided to walk away instead of responding to him since I found it so baffling that anyone would confuse the two scenarios. It seems he's not the only one, so I might as well respond.
Soon-to-be Kobali victims are already dead. The Kobali wouldn't be interested in them if they weren't.
As you well know, the purpose of emergency resuscitation and first response procedures in general is to prevent the patient's death so they can eventually resume their life as their former self, with as little impairment to their quality of life as possible.
What the Kobali reproduction procedure does instead, is resurrect a person from their already dead remains(apparently it doesn't matter how decomposed they are) and inject them with a virus that gradually modifies their physiology into a Kobali one, while destroying all or most of their memory and identity. It's debatable how often the victims remember their past lives, but it's common enough to have special procedures for it. And all this happens without their consent.
If emergency medicine on Earth worked like the Kobali "reproduction", you might, after having a heart attack in New York, wake up in Ulan Bator with a sex-change, three horns, useless extra pair of hands hanging from your bumcheeks, and permanent memory loss of random severity. Also, you'd have a new "family" who insists on calling you "Laurel" despite all your protestations, and very strongly "suggests" that you do not try to leave. For your own good of course...
"questionable"? how many times have the Vaadwaur demonstrated they want to kill you by this point? The Kobali don't want us dead, thus they're a better ally.
Yes, but this doesn't explain why Starfleet's pouring so many assets into helping a bunch of liars and voodoo zombie makers that haven't proven to be a very useful ally. With the Vaadwaur on the loose and conquering plenty of planets, a world like that would be the least of my concerns, if I were SFC.
Yes, but this doesn't explain why Starfleet's pouring so many assets into helping a bunch of liars and voodoo zombie makers that haven't proven to be a very useful ally. With the Vaadwaur on the loose and conquering plenty of planets, a world like that would be the least of my concerns, if I were SFC.
Imagine the results if the Vaadwaur were to figure out how to use that virus to turn others into Vaadwaur?
The funny thing is, why is no one mentioning what happens to the federation officers who die in the Kobali war? Are they body snatching our people as well?
Yes, but this doesn't explain why Starfleet's pouring so many assets into helping a bunch of liars and voodoo zombie makers that haven't proven to be a very useful ally. With the Vaadwaur on the loose and conquering plenty of planets, a world like that would be the least of my concerns, if I were SFC.
Perhaps because making friends, and working with said friends on any/all issues is Starfleet's thing - and besides, the Kobali are peaceful by all war standards, with only details of their rebirth process needing a lot of work on. Keeping details hidden out of concern and having a morally questionable culture act aren't deal-breakers, least for Starfleet
As for the Vaadwaur, they're generally warlike and don't have much empathy for anyone but themselves, at least from all indications. Even making peace would require keeping an eye on their activities, and becoming Starfleet's friend isn't too likely, considering the internal 'we've been hurt too much to be healed' look on their situation
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The funny thing is, why is no one mentioning what happens to the federation officers who die in the Kobali war? Are they body snatching our people as well?
If emergency medicine on Earth worked like the Kobali "reproduction", you might, after having a heart attack in New York, wake up in Ulan Bator with a sex-change, three horns, useless extra pair of hands hanging from your bumcheeks, and permanent memory loss of random severity. Also, you'd have a new "family" who insists on calling you "Laurel" despite all your protestations, and very strongly "suggests" that you do not try to leave. For your own good of course...
Perhaps because making friends, and working with said friends on any/all issues is Starfleet's thing - and besides, the Kobali are peaceful by all war standards, with only details of their rebirth process needing a lot of work on. Keeping details hidden out of concern and having a morally questionable culture act aren't deal-breakers, least for them
And we aren't Kobali. We shouldn't use their cultural norms when dealing with them.
We should use OUR cultural norms. Where lying repeatedly to allies, systematically abusing children and family members, and heavily modifying people's minds and bodies are deal-breakers.
As for the Vaadwaur, they're generally warlike and don't have much empathy for anyone but themselves, at least from all indications. Even making peace would require keeping an eye on their activities, and becoming Starfleet's friend isn't too likely, considering the internal 'we've been hurt too much to be healed' look on their situation
Really? We're getting along OK with the Romulans--Republic AND Empire. Has the Shiar i'Saeihr Rihan attacked us since Sela got taken? No. Is the Republic an allied state of the UFP? Yes.
Oh, and as for the racist militarism aspect...the Vaadwaur aren't that different from the Klingons. Gaul's Space Hitler, sure, but the Vaadwaur as a whole aren't so bad--Eldex is ruthless, yes, but no more so than the Klingons.
And besides. Gaul's lieutenants were mind-controlled by evil parasites--which implies that they wouldn't have gone along with him without the mind control.
With the Vaadwaur on the loose and conquering plenty of planets, a world like that would be the least of my concerns, if I were SFC.
Then it's a good thing you're not a military leader.
If the Kobali died out, and the Delta Alliance were unwilling to hold the planet by themselves, the next thing Section 31 or the Romulans would do is destroy the temple containing several hundred enemy soldiers.
Frankly, moral views of the situation are irrelevant from the perspective of the Federation, because it's entirely their (Voyager's) fault in the first place.
We gain access to the Kobali Front after Revelations, where we discover that because Voyager woke up the Vaadwaur the Turei homeworld is getting blasted. Then at Kobali Front we discover that because Voyager woke up the Vaadwaur, the Kobali homeworld is getting blasted. We also realize that they've somehow made giant jumps in technology, and considering all that we've seen and done prior to hitting Delta Quadrant, I'd be surprised if no intel analyst mentioned the Iconians as a possible cause.
We gain access to All That Glitters and Temple of My People at the same time. So at the same time we discover the Kobali had been using Vaadwaur corpses for hundreds of years, we also learn the Vaadwaur are utterly unwilling to negotiate, will try to kill you under the guise of negotiations, and will kill defenseless civilians belonging to a third party trying to facilitate said negotiations for no damn reason.
We gain access to Looming Shadows and Capture the Flag at the same time. So we learn the Vaadwaur are developing an anti-Kobali virus at the same time we discover the Vaadwaur have some sort of super-soldiers.
I mean, the whole sequence of events is basically because the Federation F'd Up in a major way, with our continuing enemies the Iconians using that FU to attack the Delta Quadrant.
The Feds basically have no real opportunity to have the moral high ground to criticize the Kobali's centuries-old traditions while Kobali are dying as a direct result of Voyager bringing back the Vaadwaur.
It's also not a first response situation. So what you wrote has no bearing on it. It was also wrong when markhawkman said the situation was comparable, but I decided to walk away instead of responding to him since I found it so baffling that anyone would confuse the two scenarios. It seems he's not the only one, so I might as well respond.
No one is "confused".
It was a direct response to: "This means that the only ethically sound course of action is to not create a situation where there's a chance they were brought back against their will. Since they can't give permission, it's more ethical to assume that they aren't giving one."
If someone can't give permission for life-saving procedures, it's assumed that attendants have implied consent, because it's assumed that anyone who refuses to have their life saved is basically not mentally sound.
It is in no way more ethical to deny someone life on the chance they don't want to live, than to grant someone life on the chance they want to live.
Regardless, this has no bearing on the course of action any morally responsible Federation needs to take. You can feel free to criticize and try to change the Kobali (is that allowed under the Prime Directive?) after you defend them from the threat that the Federation unleashed upon them.
And we aren't Kobali. We shouldn't use their cultural norms when dealing with them.
We should use OUR cultural norms. Where lying repeatedly to allies, systematically abusing children and family members, and heavily modifying people's minds and bodies are deal-breakers.
Really? We're getting along OK with the Romulans--Republic AND Empire. Has the Shiar i'Saeihr Rihan attacked us since Sela got taken? No. Is the Republic an allied state of the UFP? Yes.
Oh, and as for the racist militarism aspect...the Vaadwaur aren't that different from the Klingons. Gaul's Space Hitler, sure, but the Vaadwaur as a whole aren't so bad--Eldex is ruthless, yes, but no more so than the Klingons.
And besides. Gaul's lieutenants were mind-controlled by evil parasites--which implies that they wouldn't have gone along with him without the mind control.
As stated though, there's different opinions - some don't see everything they've said as lies, and some are willing (enough) to let said lies go if there's a good enough reason or because they have to. Not to mention the whole 'does it look abusive' angle, which I don't think it is personally. And when I said 'them', I was referring to Starfleet, not the Kobali
We can only imagine how much more diverse Starfleet's opinions are about it, not to mention the professionalism + restrained respect angle they have to maintain. And the KDF and RR, at the very least, have to show a little courtesy lest they offend their allies and threaten to undo the Alliance again... which with the impending threat, no one would rationally seem willing to do.
So, personal deal-breakers, maybe, but not as a whole
And yes, but the bonds with the KDF and Romulans took time, years of knowing each other beforehand (not to mention the numerous incidents + almost-war-starters). The Vaadwaur don't have that luxury, and are much more resistant to any help in the first place - it may happen eventually, but not so easily as 'that' imo
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And besides. Gaul's lieutenants were mind-controlled by evil parasites--which implies that they wouldn't have gone along with him without the mind control.
That's one possibility. It is equally plausible they wanted the power that comes from being infected.
It is also possible Gaul just wanted to remove them in the same way Stalin regularly purged his government and military leadership.
It is also possible they got replaced first and Gaul was able to protect himself and agreed to work with the bluegills in exchange for keeping his freedom.
There's a lot of possibilities, we don't know what went down.
It is also possible they got replaced first and Gaul was able to protect himself and agreed to work with the bluegills in exchange for keeping his freedom.
There's a lot of possibilities, we don't know what went down.
I thought What's Left Behind made it clear that Gaul was working for/with the Iconians (the source of their advanced tech), and the Solanae-created Bluegills were an extension of that?
I thought What's Left Behind made it clear that Gaul was working for/with the Iconians (the source of their advanced tech), and the Solanae-created Bluegills were an extension of that?
That's not the same as knowing how, why and when the others got infected.
There was no recorded cutscene (that I recall) or recovered communication saying what happened. Just one guy noticing that Gaul wasn't infected and making guesses in takedown, and then a bit more info claiming he was working with the knowledge that the bluegills were connected to the iconians.
Did it tell us that he knew about the iconians first? I honestly don't remember either way. But all the possibilities i laid out above can include him knowing about the iconians before his sub's get infected, and learning about them second. Either way is possible and I don't recall being told which is true.
As stated though, there's different opinions - some don't see everything they've said as lies, and some are willing (enough) to let said lies go if there's a good enough reason or because they have to. Not to mention the whole 'does it look abusive' angle, which I don't think it is personally. And when I said 'them', I was referring to Starfleet, not the Kobali
We can only imagine how much more diverse Starfleet's opinions are about it, not to mention the professionalism + restrained respect angle they have to maintain. And the KDF and RR, at the very least, have to show a little courtesy lest they offend their allies and threaten to undo the Alliance again... which with the impending threat, no one would rationally seem willing to do.
So, personal deal-breakers, maybe, but not as a whole
And yes, but the bonds with the KDF and Romulans took time, years of knowing each other beforehand (not to mention the numerous incidents + almost-war-starters). The Vaadwaur don't have that luxury, and are much more resistant to any help in the first place - it may happen eventually, but not so easily as 'that' imo
Lots of big words that say nothing at all.
You may not think that it's abusive, but I'm beginning to see that you're the kind of person who thinks that you can give consent while intoxicated. Because that's basically the way the Kobali treat it--the people they violate can't give consent, so they assume consent. This is immoral and unethical, not to mention illegal, under established Federation, Klingon, and Romulan ethical systems and laws.
And let's face it, the Klingons are only in this for the power and because the Iconians p*ssed them off. They're not going to lay down their lives for these cowardly, treacherous, dishonorable scum just because the Feds are blind. And the Romulans like to play dangerous, borderline insane games; Kererek's probably advocating glassing Kobali Prime from orbit at this point.
I say again that the Vaadwaur are demonstrably, objectively, no worse than the Klingons or Romulan Empire. Give it a couple of years and the new, less evil leadership, and things will be fine.
In a nutshell, you're confusing inability to give consent with consent (which is disgusting and evil) and buying into the Kobali "oh we're so peaceful stop preventing my culture from stepping on other people's cultures!" propaganda (which is merely annoying).
Put it another way. Say that there's a culture that takes bodies from other cultures and cuts them up, stitches them back together with different body parts attached, and zaps them with electricity to bring them back to life, then proceeds to brainwash and browbeat them into staying around. And another culture, this one bigger and meaner, comes in and starts forcing the Frankensteins away from more bodies. And the Frankensteins start screaming and carrying on about how it's their cultural mandate to take other people's respected dead and violate them, abuse them, and generally be terrible people towards them.
Comments
It's not the use of the dead, period, that's a problem. It's the use of the dead without consent from either the person or the next-of-kin. They do this whole thing about wanting respect for their own customs but give none in return.
More critically they have this habit of kidnapping and brainwashing anybody who rejects being Kobalified. That's systematic domestic abuse.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Even with ST's history of 'everyone is under this hat' type of races, there are variations of who's willing to go to this extreme, who will not, and other such differing views/opinions on their race-wide aspect. So while the issue still stands, applying that one example/mindset to the entire race just seems premature, is all
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
They had a specific term for people who remembered their past lives, and it was IIRC at the very least heavily implied that the scumbag's actions were standard procedure.
While I don't doubt that there are very wonderful individual Kobali, their culture and government encourage and abet outright evil actions and behavior.
Yes, that aspect doesn't excuse it, and it also doesn't make them saints, but it also doesn't label them as irredeemable manipulative monsters - at least, not to me. And if there's some good, it should be factored in
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And as has been pointed out, many times, most Kobali DON'T remember at all. Which might explain their na
My character Tsin'xing
Two things from canon would seem to suggest the Klingons wouldn't really have much of a problem with it, or at least not enough to make enemies of the Kobali because of it.
First, TNG "Heart of Glory" makes pretty clear that once a warrior is dead, they really don't give a targ's hiney what is done with the body afterward. It's basically an empty shell to them. Now, it's true that as of that episode they probably weren't counting on anyone being able to resurrect the corpse, but even if the Klingons find that abhorrent, their don't care attitude toward treatment of the body makes the solution ridiculously easy: Destroy the body (vaporize it, burn it Viking-style, whatever) so that the Kobali cannot use it.
Second, Dr. Bashir did something quite similar to Kurn in DS9 "Sons of Mogh", that the Klingons apparently had no objection to even though they and the Federation were on the outs at that time. Bashir basically erased Kurn's memories and implanted someone else's, then arranged for some random Klingon dude to "adopt" Kurn as his son. In effect, Bashir killed Kurn - not in an honorable way - and created someone else to inhabit Kurn's former body. Sound familiar?
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
Your first comment was right on par. Klingons are like the Borg in that fashion, eliminate the remains and move on.
But as for your second comment about Kurn? He did that because there was no out for Kurn. The family of Mogh was dishonored to the point where Kurn thought he would end up in Gre'thor period, and there was no way for him to ever regain his honor or his dignity.
What Bashir did was a blessing. He gave Kurn a new life, a new face, and the chance to reach Sto'vo'kor once more. I think that form of "rebirth" (and that's really REALLY pushing the envelope here) is far from a dishonor. The person in that body was still Kurn in spirit, it was just no longer weighed down by the sins and dishonor of the former life. So he didn't kill Kurn, he just killed his past, and gave him a newer, better future.
But that aside, I don't think the Klingons really would take kindly to what the Kobali were doing, but as long as they didn't do it to any warrior of the empire, I highly doubt the Klingons would actually truly care.
The storyline would work beautifully with a lower-ranked player character. Starfleet has a certain "culture justifies anything" -attitude so if the player were subordinate to the other characters, everything would be plausible. With Admirals...not so much. The urge to pull rank on Captain Prime Directive is so irresistible it hurts that the plot forces you into being a silent observer.
The resurrection itself is not bad. I agree with the Kobali girl from Dust to Dust who's name I can't spell, it isn't worse than being dead. But there is obviously brainwashing included, and that's unquestionably evil. Because people don't leave everything they know behind, change their name and go live with total strangers on an alien planet just because they don't remember some details of their past.
This is contrary to first responder procedure, who will try to save their life while they're in the middle of trying to commit suicide.
It's also contrary to basic first aid training - if the casualty is unable to give consent, consent for saving their life is implied.
Second, I agree, the "railroading" of the characters in this storyline is so heavy handed it ruins what could have been an excellent dilemma with tons of drama potential...
For example, Admiral Player sides with Kim at the first objection. Situation goes south, PC has to "save the day" more as reflex / "protect home interests" than siding with the Kobali. Same types of "guidance" keeps occuring till the temple scene, where Benzite comes in and says "I don't care your personal feelings, Quinn / Council / D'Tan / whatever high rank you want has determined that we need to assist these guys, now go in and do your duty."
Depending on exactly how that gets written, the railroading becomes much more plausible and maybe even an actual ethical dilemma.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
It doesn't seem very Star Trek to mindlessly accept the bad guy that has been spoon fed to me. The Star Trek I grew up with has generally included the idea that understanding is better than conflict. It kills the immersion for me as an admiral to be told by a captain to shut up and keep killing the Vaudwaar.
No.
Organ donor cards, living wills, and DNRs do exist, but has nothing to do with first responder procedures.
Note that even if you refuse treatment while conscious, the first responder is required to stay with you until you go unconscious as a result of refusing treatment. Once you're unconscious they will have implied consent.
(If they actually left when you refused treatment, fell unconscious, and died, they'd be at serious liability.)
Indeed. And things like this are exactly what make this game decidedly NOT Star Trek. Many an episode involved conflict with higher-ranking officials (Admirals, usually) which, in the end, was won by our heroic captain, getting to the bottom of the mystery and finding out the truth. Here, we're a bloody Admiral - One of the TRIBBLE you normally see GIVING the questionable orders, not taking them - and we're sitting here being railroaded through like a puppy dog? And by a captain, no less... If I were truly my character, I'd still be at Starfleet Command on Earth trying as hard as I can to get Starfleet, and the Federation in general, to stop supporting these people, not out there shooting the Vaadwaur senseless with a fancy phaser like some MACO Infantry goon.
My character Tsin'xing
whats more is there to understand about an Entire race that treats the universe as its own personal lebensraum
They have already been shown to kill indiscriminately in patrol missions, and they communicate their personal enjoyment to their victims as they slaughter them.
But sure, lets Understand the aggressive, expansionist race who named their own faction the Vaadwuar Supremacy
Well I agree with the view on Star Trek.
But to be fair I don't thing this particular arc does injustice to that, after all, we are at war (which may be kind of un Trekkie but still a thing in that universe) with the vaadwaur. Also we cooperate with reasonable vaadwaur to end the war (which is prety much the point where the story ends right now).
So in terms of "trek ness" Sto did far worst, just look at that borderline TRIBBLE true way plot.
As for the Kobaki: agreed. They are despicable and if I could I'd rather side with the vaadwaur in that matter.
From my rp-perspective my fed captain only helps them because of orders, my kdf-mercenary sees more advantage for himself (and role play wise stole their flagship) and my romulan has a nice tholaron device ready for the very second the Kobaki loose their use....
It's also not a first response situation. So what you wrote has no bearing on it. It was also wrong when markhawkman said the situation was comparable, but I decided to walk away instead of responding to him since I found it so baffling that anyone would confuse the two scenarios. It seems he's not the only one, so I might as well respond.
Soon-to-be Kobali victims are already dead. The Kobali wouldn't be interested in them if they weren't.
As you well know, the purpose of emergency resuscitation and first response procedures in general is to prevent the patient's death so they can eventually resume their life as their former self, with as little impairment to their quality of life as possible.
What the Kobali reproduction procedure does instead, is resurrect a person from their already dead remains(apparently it doesn't matter how decomposed they are) and inject them with a virus that gradually modifies their physiology into a Kobali one, while destroying all or most of their memory and identity. It's debatable how often the victims remember their past lives, but it's common enough to have special procedures for it. And all this happens without their consent.
If emergency medicine on Earth worked like the Kobali "reproduction", you might, after having a heart attack in New York, wake up in Ulan Bator with a sex-change, three horns, useless extra pair of hands hanging from your bumcheeks, and permanent memory loss of random severity. Also, you'd have a new "family" who insists on calling you "Laurel" despite all your protestations, and very strongly "suggests" that you do not try to leave. For your own good of course...
Yes, but this doesn't explain why Starfleet's pouring so many assets into helping a bunch of liars and voodoo zombie makers that haven't proven to be a very useful ally. With the Vaadwaur on the loose and conquering plenty of planets, a world like that would be the least of my concerns, if I were SFC.
My character Tsin'xing
As for the Vaadwaur, they're generally warlike and don't have much empathy for anyone but themselves, at least from all indications. Even making peace would require keeping an eye on their activities, and becoming Starfleet's friend isn't too likely, considering the internal 'we've been hurt too much to be healed' look on their situation
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
My character Tsin'xing
Quoted for pinpoint accuracy. And we aren't Kobali. We shouldn't use their cultural norms when dealing with them.
We should use OUR cultural norms. Where lying repeatedly to allies, systematically abusing children and family members, and heavily modifying people's minds and bodies are deal-breakers.
Really? We're getting along OK with the Romulans--Republic AND Empire. Has the Shiar i'Saeihr Rihan attacked us since Sela got taken? No. Is the Republic an allied state of the UFP? Yes.
Oh, and as for the racist militarism aspect...the Vaadwaur aren't that different from the Klingons. Gaul's Space Hitler, sure, but the Vaadwaur as a whole aren't so bad--Eldex is ruthless, yes, but no more so than the Klingons.
And besides. Gaul's lieutenants were mind-controlled by evil parasites--which implies that they wouldn't have gone along with him without the mind control.
Then it's a good thing you're not a military leader.
If the Kobali died out, and the Delta Alliance were unwilling to hold the planet by themselves, the next thing Section 31 or the Romulans would do is destroy the temple containing several hundred enemy soldiers.
Frankly, moral views of the situation are irrelevant from the perspective of the Federation, because it's entirely their (Voyager's) fault in the first place.
We gain access to the Kobali Front after Revelations, where we discover that because Voyager woke up the Vaadwaur the Turei homeworld is getting blasted. Then at Kobali Front we discover that because Voyager woke up the Vaadwaur, the Kobali homeworld is getting blasted. We also realize that they've somehow made giant jumps in technology, and considering all that we've seen and done prior to hitting Delta Quadrant, I'd be surprised if no intel analyst mentioned the Iconians as a possible cause.
We gain access to All That Glitters and Temple of My People at the same time. So at the same time we discover the Kobali had been using Vaadwaur corpses for hundreds of years, we also learn the Vaadwaur are utterly unwilling to negotiate, will try to kill you under the guise of negotiations, and will kill defenseless civilians belonging to a third party trying to facilitate said negotiations for no damn reason.
We gain access to Looming Shadows and Capture the Flag at the same time. So we learn the Vaadwaur are developing an anti-Kobali virus at the same time we discover the Vaadwaur have some sort of super-soldiers.
I mean, the whole sequence of events is basically because the Federation F'd Up in a major way, with our continuing enemies the Iconians using that FU to attack the Delta Quadrant.
The Feds basically have no real opportunity to have the moral high ground to criticize the Kobali's centuries-old traditions while Kobali are dying as a direct result of Voyager bringing back the Vaadwaur.
No one is "confused".
It was a direct response to: "This means that the only ethically sound course of action is to not create a situation where there's a chance they were brought back against their will. Since they can't give permission, it's more ethical to assume that they aren't giving one."
If someone can't give permission for life-saving procedures, it's assumed that attendants have implied consent, because it's assumed that anyone who refuses to have their life saved is basically not mentally sound.
It is in no way more ethical to deny someone life on the chance they don't want to live, than to grant someone life on the chance they want to live.
Regardless, this has no bearing on the course of action any morally responsible Federation needs to take. You can feel free to criticize and try to change the Kobali (is that allowed under the Prime Directive?) after you defend them from the threat that the Federation unleashed upon them.
We can only imagine how much more diverse Starfleet's opinions are about it, not to mention the professionalism + restrained respect angle they have to maintain. And the KDF and RR, at the very least, have to show a little courtesy lest they offend their allies and threaten to undo the Alliance again... which with the impending threat, no one would rationally seem willing to do.
So, personal deal-breakers, maybe, but not as a whole
And yes, but the bonds with the KDF and Romulans took time, years of knowing each other beforehand (not to mention the numerous incidents + almost-war-starters). The Vaadwaur don't have that luxury, and are much more resistant to any help in the first place - it may happen eventually, but not so easily as 'that' imo
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That's one possibility. It is equally plausible they wanted the power that comes from being infected.
It is also possible Gaul just wanted to remove them in the same way Stalin regularly purged his government and military leadership.
It is also possible they got replaced first and Gaul was able to protect himself and agreed to work with the bluegills in exchange for keeping his freedom.
There's a lot of possibilities, we don't know what went down.
I thought What's Left Behind made it clear that Gaul was working for/with the Iconians (the source of their advanced tech), and the Solanae-created Bluegills were an extension of that?
That's not the same as knowing how, why and when the others got infected.
There was no recorded cutscene (that I recall) or recovered communication saying what happened. Just one guy noticing that Gaul wasn't infected and making guesses in takedown, and then a bit more info claiming he was working with the knowledge that the bluegills were connected to the iconians.
Did it tell us that he knew about the iconians first? I honestly don't remember either way. But all the possibilities i laid out above can include him knowing about the iconians before his sub's get infected, and learning about them second. Either way is possible and I don't recall being told which is true.
Lots of big words that say nothing at all.
You may not think that it's abusive, but I'm beginning to see that you're the kind of person who thinks that you can give consent while intoxicated. Because that's basically the way the Kobali treat it--the people they violate can't give consent, so they assume consent. This is immoral and unethical, not to mention illegal, under established Federation, Klingon, and Romulan ethical systems and laws.
And let's face it, the Klingons are only in this for the power and because the Iconians p*ssed them off. They're not going to lay down their lives for these cowardly, treacherous, dishonorable scum just because the Feds are blind. And the Romulans like to play dangerous, borderline insane games; Kererek's probably advocating glassing Kobali Prime from orbit at this point.
I say again that the Vaadwaur are demonstrably, objectively, no worse than the Klingons or Romulan Empire. Give it a couple of years and the new, less evil leadership, and things will be fine.
In a nutshell, you're confusing inability to give consent with consent (which is disgusting and evil) and buying into the Kobali "oh we're so peaceful stop preventing my culture from stepping on other people's cultures!" propaganda (which is merely annoying).
Put it another way. Say that there's a culture that takes bodies from other cultures and cuts them up, stitches them back together with different body parts attached, and zaps them with electricity to bring them back to life, then proceeds to brainwash and browbeat them into staying around. And another culture, this one bigger and meaner, comes in and starts forcing the Frankensteins away from more bodies. And the Frankensteins start screaming and carrying on about how it's their cultural mandate to take other people's respected dead and violate them, abuse them, and generally be terrible people towards them.
And you're supporting the Frankensteins.
You disgust me.