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Kobali Story gets worse. (spoilers)
pulserazor
Member Posts: 590 Arc User
I decided to stop thinking for a while and just follow the white and green arrows on the map in the Kobali ground zone and see where they would take me, as the scenery itself is quite nice and shooting endless hordes of snake men isnt terribly boring. Then I read the story.
This is some of the most morally abject content I have ever endured in any form of literary entertainment. I cant decide if this is a terrible joke, bad writing, or a setup for something awesome.
We discover the Kobali are holding a lot of Vaudwaar in stasis. looming over them waiting for them to die so they can reanimate them, preventing the Vaudwaar from liberating them, studying their genetic makeup.
We know the Vaudwaar want their people back, and rightfully so... but we help the Kobali imprison them.
We discover that Vaudwaar have developed a means to prevent their own people from being reanimated, but we call this a 'Virus', despite the fact that it by definition is an innoculation. - So we hinder the Vaudwaar efforts to protect what is obviously a sense of their 'sanctity of life' - a theme not uncommon among our own present-day societies. Even in Star Trek lore there are races who wouldnt even let other species look upon their dead, much less reanimate them. (DS9: "Indiscretion")
To say nothing about the Prime Directive.
Moral fecundity aside, what happened to the Undine? How does Cryptic just drop the story arc they have invested so much in, to favor a story arc fabricated from a couple aliens-of-the-week that we could just as soon forgotten about?
What is a Planet Killer if it didnt ever kill any planets?
Please cryptic, Let the undine kill Kobali Prime. This story makes no sense.
This is some of the most morally abject content I have ever endured in any form of literary entertainment. I cant decide if this is a terrible joke, bad writing, or a setup for something awesome.
We discover the Kobali are holding a lot of Vaudwaar in stasis. looming over them waiting for them to die so they can reanimate them, preventing the Vaudwaar from liberating them, studying their genetic makeup.
We know the Vaudwaar want their people back, and rightfully so... but we help the Kobali imprison them.
We discover that Vaudwaar have developed a means to prevent their own people from being reanimated, but we call this a 'Virus', despite the fact that it by definition is an innoculation. - So we hinder the Vaudwaar efforts to protect what is obviously a sense of their 'sanctity of life' - a theme not uncommon among our own present-day societies. Even in Star Trek lore there are races who wouldnt even let other species look upon their dead, much less reanimate them. (DS9: "Indiscretion")
To say nothing about the Prime Directive.
Moral fecundity aside, what happened to the Undine? How does Cryptic just drop the story arc they have invested so much in, to favor a story arc fabricated from a couple aliens-of-the-week that we could just as soon forgotten about?
What is a Planet Killer if it didnt ever kill any planets?
Please cryptic, Let the undine kill Kobali Prime. This story makes no sense.
Post edited by pulserazor on
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Comments
I actually found myself sympathising with the Vaadwaur and find the Federation's use of the Kobali as allies extremely distasteful. It feels more like an alliance of convenience than anything else and doesn't feel right that the Federation are getting involved with them.
As a plot device it does provoke discussion though, just for all the wrong reasons.
IMHO this situation is exactly the same as what Captain Picard faced in the TNG premiere episode with the space station/alien.
An Alien was captured and forced to assume the shape of a modern Station suitable for starfleet. when Picard found out he freed the alien and refused to help. Now we as Starfleet Admirals, find a Culture that has thousands of Prisoners that they are waiting for to die so they can be turned into Kobali, and when we try to question it we are overruled by an ostensibly subordinate officer. Then we have to continue supporting the entire fiasco.
Ahh well my sig says it all.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
We've seen "body horror" in the form of Elachi and Borg in the past, but the Kobali are much worse. The Borg will leave your memories alone, they "just" "remote control" you through cybernetic implants. This means that there's a possiblity of liberation and recovery for you. Elachi seem to require living people to use as raw material, after which they're mercifully dead.
The Kobali on the other hand, reanimate previously living individuals so that they're for all intents and purposes alive again, slowly genetically modify them after the reanimation and gradually destroy a large part of their memories. All for them to act as a host for a new Kobali "individual", who has much less right to this new existence as the old one it's destroying to make space for itself, given that the old one has a past, memories and presumably loved ones.
This in effect makes the newly created Kobali into what's effectively a voodoo zombie, enslaved to its new host, with aspects of its old personality and memory remaining, but with the unfortunate difference of having no prospect of recovery from its current state.
It's claimed that the host normally retains no memory of its past, but some species, like humans apparently retain more of their memories. IF this is true, as the Kobali seem to have a propensity for lying about their true nature, their method of reproduction would only usually violate the sanctity of burial which seems common among most sentient species.
However, based on the Kobali-centered Voyager episode, they have a name for people who try to resist the procedure, and established methods for capturing and recovering those who try to escape. With or without their permission. This points to this being a much more common occurence than what the Kobali would have you believe.
This whole process is vile enough, that even the most totaliatarian conqueror species should realistically become fast allies with more peaceful ones in getting rid of the Kobali, given how common a concept just the sanctity of burial seems to be among otherwise wildly different species.
The only real moral dilemma to me seems to be what to do with the existing Kobali, as they too are in effect just past victims of other Kobali.
Something with the same power but more defense can hardly be an unexpected development, or require that many more resources in the first place, considering the organic nature of them.
As for back on the Kobali topic, we all know they're in a morally grey area, period - the only thing is that, no matter your faction, it's not anyone's place to say their entire culture is wrong, or to demand that it be changed. Working with current actions and behaviors as per orders and courtesy, sure, but not to state opinions on the matter (least publicly)
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That's not quite how things were there. The Vaadwaur had disappeared. The Vaadwaur had been a threat to the Delta Quadrant. They were defeated by the Turei Coalition. They went into stasis to try to return later after hoping the Coalition would fall apart and they would be able to conquer the Delta Quadrant. There was a technical malfunction and they remained in stasis.
The crew of Voyager in their typical bumbling through the Delta Quadrant making things worse fashion discovered the Vaadwaur. The Vaadwaur tried to take Voyager so they could once again start their conquest of the Delta Quadrant. Obviously they had to fail in that, show was called Voyager after all, and so the Vaadwaur fled into Underspace.
So the Vaadwaur were not around...there were stasis pods on Kobali Prime...and the Kobali actually were looking after them. They weren't just waiting for a pod to fail, looming over them or anything of the sort. But yes, if one happened to fail - they would go all Kobali on the corpse and a new Kobali was born...yadda, yadda, yadda.
The Vaadwaur once again return to the Delta Quadrant...equipped with technology they had not displayed previously. Not their to liberate those stasis pods. They returned once more to conquer the Delta Quadrant.
If the information about the stasis pods on Kobali Prime were revealed, that would be that many more soldiers the Vaadwaur would have for their assault on the Delta Quadrant. So the information was kept secret. The stasis pods were prisoners of war, well treated, etc, etc, etc.
The Federation/Klingon/Romulan's concern in the matter would be the potential threat that the Vaadwaur would pose to the Alpha Quadrant with the sheer numbers and the new technology.
Course the bit about the neural parasites being behind the latest attempt by the Vaadwaur to conquer the "Universe" comes to light, the Vaadwaur splinter, and we defeat the "bad" Vaadwaur - the neural parasites.
With the Vaadwaur threat removed, the stasis pods are no longer prisoners of war, and the Kobali return them to the other Vaadwaur.
That's not what we discover in the least. The Vaadwaur virus does not simply prevent their own people from being reanimated - it prevents any species from being reanimated. They want to commit genocide...have the Kobali die out unable to reproduce.
So yeah, wow, your post...hrmmm...how did you miss so much and get so much wrong?
This here is unmitigated bullpucky. If they were doing what they do in isolation it would have some merit, but as long as they're using other cultures' deceased to practice theirs(against their will, no less), those cultures are well within their rights to have a say about it. "It's my culture!" isn't an unlimited license to do whatever you want, if your actions have an effect on others.
The Kobali used to have the ability to reproduce but lost it due to a genetic experiment gone wrong.
The APUs were never meant to reproduce. The Pralor and the Cravic knew there was a chance they could go rogue and made sure they wouldn't pose a significant threat to the galaxy if they did. If some of the APUs were willing to forgo their war and form a proper civilization, maybe the situation would change. But until then, they're just weapons of mass destruction running amok.
I think "Dust to Dust" did a good job deconstructing the Kobali culture. They do believe that their way is superior, and they're starting to figure out that not everyone likes that. They're taking steps to make sure they don't repeat the mistakes of the past, and we (the players and the Delta Alliance as a whole) are a big part of the reason why.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with that. During World War II the Allies teamed up with the USSR to take down Hitler. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and all that.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Of course the Federation would be interested in the process. It's one part of the storyline I'd liked to see explored.
The medical benefits alone that could be learned from understanding their reanimation process - could be a huge boon.
It's a dead body. Or formerly dead body. The same dead body that various microorganisms would break down and turn into food or use to reproduce. Heck some larger organisms well devour and eat a dead body left out in nature.
It' s honestly no different. This is simply the way the Kobali reproduce.
And the Kobali have technology that allows them to heal traumatic wounds, restore function to dead brains, and heal just about any injury. That would be of great interest to Star Fleet.
My character Tsin'xing
Have you read none of the posts in this and other Kobali theads describing the implications of the process? I did see you posting in some of the threads.
To many people it would be. Many people consider Alzheimer's disease a fate worse than death. This isn't just that either. Your past and who you are as an individual is being wiped in front of your eyes, and you're being forcefully integrated into an alien culture.
And the person whose opinion matters most can't give it to you....
Also, we have no reason to believe that everyone had as traumatic a rebirth as Keten. From what was said in the Voy ep, it would seem that most simply wake up with amnesia.
My character Tsin'xing
It's also highly doubtful the Vaadwaur even bothered to just ask the Kobali for the active stasis tubes. See how well the Talaxian's attempt at parley worked.
Not "some people". "Some people" would be weasel words, implying that there are some unnamed mythical people somewhere who allegedly agree. I wrote "many people". This is because it's a commonly expressed sentiment that getting Alzheimer's disease is a fate worse than death. Also, there are multiple threads on this board where a large number of people express distaste towards the Kobali, and the sanctity of burial is a commonly held concept around the world.
This means that the only ethically sound course of action is to not create a situation where there's a chance they were brought back against their will. Since they can't give permission, it's more ethical to assume that they aren't giving one.
If they stay dead, their life has run its natural course, whether they died accidentally or not. Bringing them back will just increase the net amount of suffering in the universe, and only benefit the selfish needs of the Kobali "parents" who want to exploit their remains.
We do know from the same episode that victims waking up with memories is common enough that the Kobali have established procedures and name for dragging back the escapees and coercing them into integrating to their society. So it can't be that uncommon. As has been pointed out in multiple occasions, the Kobali also have a tendency to lie, so their word can't especially be trusted on the issue.
It's deplorable in EVERY sense. The entire thing is TRIBBLE-poor writing in full effect.
The storyline rams terrible morality tales down your throat (rather forcefully) and is horrible on top of that. The Kobali are an evil psycho freak of nature "species" (virus) that corrupts and co-opts other in the same vein as demonic possession.
Just taking the technology by itself, it's pure fantasy magic. Oh, we'll just inject a dead body with this virus and it will reanimate no matter how damaged the body was or how long it's been dead, oh and on top of that the body will retain total recall of all things before its death and be perfectly functional.
How idiotic is that? Adding the whole "oh and we'll painfully strip memories from you so that you're aware it's happening while trapped in a mental death" is a terrible torture to put somebody through. Look at Alzheimer's patients for a related tangent. Further, if they had this magic "restore people from the dead" they wouldn't need convert them to Kobali. Just use it ON THE KOBALI! No need to reproduce is mitigated by the fact that death isn't permanent and the population doesn't diminish.
TRIBBLE the Kobali storyline. Not worth the effort they gave it and the way Cryptic is trying to paint them as the gentle Savant good guys is just sickening most times. Another sign that Cryptic doesn't get it. They just don't get it.
I like story arcs that challenge my own values and morality.
The Kobalis are not good guys or pseudo princess waiting for the fed white knights to come save them: they are a species on the verge of extinction and they do resort to extreme measure to survive.
Does escaping the ultimate end of their species make them good?
The Vaadwaurs are not just bad guys: they are a species that was pushed to extinction by the Turei coalition.
When Voyager found them, they were survivors of a long gone interstellar global war. Who would have known that they were a supremacy trying to enslave the entire quadrant.
Yet, the Vaadwaurs are attacking Kobali Prime to get the stasis pod of their people back.
Does saving their people make the Vaadwaur bad?
The Federation is not goody two shoes space explorers: Starfleet is an armed military forces and Section 31 did some pretty shaddy things.
Not everything is black or white ...
First, it doesn't not challenge you in any way. It's an affront to morals, NOT a challenge to them. There is a difference.
Further, you apparently haven't paid any attention to the story. That is EXACTLY how they are portrayed. They're snivelling little pacifists being attacked by the evil bad guys, no noez! Come, save us Starfleet! We're so inept our best "warriors" are untrained, unguided, crying babies that wander around without any combat effectiveness. War is too hard on us, we can't take the strain! Save us, you fearsome awesome warriors!
That is 100% exactly how the story starts. They are the princesses in need of saving -- from a fight they started by war crimes atrocities.
There is no reason other than bald-faced lies that don't stand in the light of day, for Starfleet to ever have stepped in.
The entire storyline is bad, and the motivations fall apart and the fiasco spirals downward from there.
It isn't something that most people are comfortable with. A person you love has died, yet another race takes that body and uses it for their own reproduction. A lot of people would feel squeamish about it and understandably so.
Yet, these are dead bodies. Do we right now not have donor cards so that people can give up pieces of their body so that others may live? The only difference between this and that is that the entire body is used.
Now, as for the way they handled it, no I agree that it wasn't right nor good. But look at what happens during the storyline. The Kobali don't fully understand why other races would have a problem. They do understand there is an issue, after all, they hide things from outsiders, but it isn't until they interact with another race(s) that they begin to understand the complications that arise with it. They begin to change their policies due to the complications and are striving to make things better.
Is it a perfect story? No. I agree it could've been better. There are parts that fall short of what was needed to make it better.
That's not challenging your morals. Not in the slightest.
You don't seem to understand what the phrase means. That's no more challenging your morals than watching the psycho-of-the-week on a weekly murder sleuthing TV show kill its victims. There is no challenge. It's just an affront. Discomfort does not equal challenge.
In this case, ost of the time it probably doesn't matter since the new Kobali wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The same argument can be made for blood transfusions and most other forms of emergency medicine. EMTs make their living helping people who are often in no condition to state their preferences. The fact they have a word for something has no bearing on whether it's common. AND it's been pointed out many times that they DON'T force people to stay.
My character Tsin'xing
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1299456
A less scientific look at the same:
http://guardianlv.com/2013/06/organ-transplants-cellular-memory-proves-major-organs-have-self-contained-brains/
But to get at the broader issue:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation#Forced_donation
For myself, I see the kobali as revealing interesting things about people. To be horrified or offended by them, one has to believe that the reanimated corpse somehow is the same original person. In effect, that there is no soul, and human life is nothing more than animated protoplasm and memory. Or if there ever was a soul, that it gets yanked out of whatever afterlife and stuffed back into the body with no memory of said afterlife (as opposed to near death experiences or similar phenomena)
If neither of these two premises apply, then the body is definitively not that of the dead person and the memories are nothing more than muscle/organ memory. Making the kobali a variation on the tarantula wasp or zombie fungus that need a host body to reproduce in, except unlike those they don't kill they recycle. And in such a case they are not doing anything to the "person" who died, just their body. As the Hindu uppanishads say, the jiva (soul) changes bodies just like the body changes clothing. Generally people don't have an issue with someone fishing old clothing out of the trash and wearing it.
If either of those hypothesis DO apply then the kobali are doing horrible things to a sentient beingbeing as documented here in this thread and others like it, so I'll not rehash.
Given the primary audience of star trek are geeky by nature, and less prone to think about souls, or the phenominon new agers call "walk-ins", I'm not surprised to see many people on the forum dislike the kobali.
This is the reason we have different opinions; we also have different morals, and how to react to them. Because the Kobali rebirth process is a highly sensitive moral topic, that's why there's so much divide. I'd like to believe it's that simple
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That doesn't hold water. As somebody said in another post, the Kobali are known liars and schemers. They "say" that nobody remembers, but so many do that not only do they have procedures in commonplace use to handle the people revived as they struggle with their old memories, but they have full-time teams/squads that hunt down the "escapees". It's so common place it happens all the time.
As for the "choice?" Hah. No choice at all. It's the illusion of choice. That's the same kind of choice battered housewives make to stay with their spouses, or gang members make to stay in a life they hate. That's the same kind of choice that North Koreans have to look upon their leader as a Sun God. A choice based on lies, ignorance, and brainwashing is no choice at all. It's a corruption of a logical thought process.
I would add that too many people here are looking at the Kobali from the perspective of human morality - a particular flavor of human morality, at that - and trying to apply that to an alien culture that has reanimated exactly two humans.
Just because some of us humans find Kobali reanimation distasteful doesn't mean other Fed cultures (or other Alpha/Beta Quadrant cultures) do. More to the point, it certainly doesn't mean the Kobali's Delta Quadrant neighbors (from whom they presumably get the lion's share of their non-Kobali bodies) do either.
Apart from the Vaadwaur, we know almost nothing about what any other Delta Quadrant culture thinks of the practice, or whether they would approve of their own people getting Kobalized. The biggest clue we have is the fact that the Kobali are not already hated or treated as pariahs by the other races seen in Delta Rising. That tells me they either don't have a problem with Kobali reanimation in the first place, or have merely not seen fit to do anything to stop it beyond the most obvious measures like, well, not disposing of their own dead anywhere that the Kobali can get their hands on them.
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