You may not think that it's abusive, but I'm beginning to see that you're the kind of person who thinks that you can give consent while intoxicated. Because that's basically the way the Kobali treat it--the people they violate can't give consent, so they assume consent. This is immoral and unethical, not to mention illegal, under established Federation, Klingon, and Romulan ethical systems and laws.
And let's face it, the Klingons are only in this for the power and because the Iconians p*ssed them off. They're not going to lay down their lives for these cowardly, treacherous, dishonorable scum just because the Feds are blind. And the Romulans like to play dangerous, borderline insane games; Kererek's probably advocating glassing Kobali Prime from orbit at this point.
I say again that the Vaadwaur are demonstrably, objectively, no worse than the Klingons or Romulan Empire. Give it a couple of years and the new, less evil leadership, and things will be fine.
In a nutshell, you're confusing inability to give consent with consent (which is disgusting and evil) and buying into the Kobali "oh we're so peaceful stop preventing my culture from stepping on other people's cultures!" propaganda (which is merely annoying).
Put it another way. Say that there's a culture that takes bodies from other cultures and cuts them up, stitches them back together with different body parts attached, and zaps them with electricity to bring them back to life, then proceeds to brainwash and browbeat them into staying around. And another culture, this one bigger and meaner, comes in and starts forcing the Frankensteins away from more bodies. And the Frankensteins start screaming and carrying on about how it's their cultural mandate to take other people's respected dead and violate them, abuse them, and generally be terrible people towards them.
And you're supporting the Frankensteins.
You disgust me.
And that's what I tried to ultimately say at the end of our last argument - understanding their way of life objectively as I see it isn't the same as supporting them.
I don't support them. Nor do I hate them or their rebirth process. I have no real cause for either, personally. I understand it, and that's what I was advocating; to understand it. Not to change your opinion or anyone else's, but just to look at it from all angles before judging. That is all
Can we leave it at differences in opinion then, before we derail this thread too? The world isn't just black and white after all
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
And that's what I tried to ultimately say at the end of our last argument - understanding their using dead people as breeding stock objectively as I see it isn't the same as supporting them.
I don't support them. Nor do I hate them or their using dead people as breeding stock. I have no real cause for either, personally. I understand massively altering people's bodies and minds without their consent, and that's what I was advocating; to understand violating sentient rights as a matter of course. Not to change your opinion or anyone else's, but just to look at massive violations of sentient rights from all angles before judging. That is all
Can we leave it at differences in opinion then, before we derail this thread too? The world isn't just black and white after all
Fixed that for you because I'm trying to get it through your skull how massively creepy you're being.
Fixed that for you because I'm trying to get it through your skull how massively creepy you're being.
You think being ambivalent is creepy? Well, I guess that would explain it, sorta - but I don't really have a problem with being seen as such
But either way, like I said, I neither like, support, hate, or protest the Kobali's ways. Like a number of things, it just exists - comes a lot with not having a lot of emotions to work with
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You may not think that it's abusive, but I'm beginning to see that you're the kind of person who thinks that you can give consent while intoxicated. Because that's basically the way the Kobali treat it--the people they violate can't give consent, so they assume consent. This is immoral and unethical, not to mention illegal, under established Federation, Klingon, and Romulan ethical systems and laws.
And let's face it, the Klingons are only in this for the power and because the Iconians p*ssed them off. They're not going to lay down their lives for these cowardly, treacherous, dishonorable scum just because the Feds are blind. And the Romulans like to play dangerous, borderline insane games; Kererek's probably advocating glassing Kobali Prime from orbit at this point.
I say again that the Vaadwaur are demonstrably, objectively, no worse than the Klingons or Romulan Empire. Give it a couple of years and the new, less evil leadership, and things will be fine.
In a nutshell, you're confusing inability to give consent with consent (which is disgusting and evil) and buying into the Kobali "oh we're so peaceful stop preventing my culture from stepping on other people's cultures!" propaganda (which is merely annoying).
Put it another way. Say that there's a culture that takes bodies from other cultures and cuts them up, stitches them back together with different body parts attached, and zaps them with electricity to bring them back to life, then proceeds to brainwash and browbeat them into staying around. And another culture, this one bigger and meaner, comes in and starts forcing the Frankensteins away from more bodies. And the Frankensteins start screaming and carrying on about how it's their cultural mandate to take other people's respected dead and violate them, abuse them, and generally be terrible people towards them.
And you're supporting the Frankensteins.
You disgust me.
You throw around the word "violate" a lot.... that's your personal opinion.
To be honest, absolutely nothing you just said has any basis.
You talk about how people loathe them in-universe.... but the only race actively attacking them is the Vaadwaur.
And the Vaadwaur? Yes, the Vaadwaur would be fine with less-insane leadership.... but their culture tends to follow leaders who promise them power and glory. As a group they want to rule the universe. Therefore they follow leaders who want to give them that. So, less insane leadership is unlikely.
Honestly I think your dislike of the Kobali is based more on irrational hatred than anything substantial.
You think being ambivalent is creepy? Well, I guess that would explain it, sorta - but I don't really have a problem with being seen as such
But either way, like I said, I neither like, support, hate, or protest the Kobali's ways even though they're basically r*pe. Like a number of things, violating bodies to turn them into more members of your species without their consent just exists - comes a lot with not having a lot of emotions to work with
Fixed to reinforce, again, how unbelievably awful you are being.
To be honest, absolutely nothing you just said has any basis.
They objectively lie to us in the game, the Kobali dude in Ashes to Ashes engages in literally textbook abusive parent behavior towards Lyndsay Ballard; how am I baseless?
And the Vaadwaur? Yes, the Vaadwaur would be fine with less-insane leadership.... but their culture tends to follow leaders who promise them power and glory. As a group they want to rule the universe. Therefore they follow leaders who want to give them that. So, less insane leadership is unlikely.
Given that Eldex, the new leader of the Vaadwaur Supremacy, is objectively more reasonable and less insane than Gaul, you're full of more sh*t than a septic tank.
Honestly I think your dislike of the Kobali is based more on irrational hatred than anything substantial.
Honestly, I think that your love of the Kobali is based more on brainless love of a terrible television show that killed the Star Trek franchise rather than on anything substantial.
Fixed to reinforce, again, how unbelievably awful you are being.
No, it's an objective analysis of the Kobali species's evil method of reproduction.
They objectively lie to us in the game, the Kobali dude in Ashes to Ashes engages in literally textbook abusive parent behavior towards Lyndsay Ballard; how am I baseless?
Yeah, so? Did the British attack Stalin in WW2?
Given that Eldex, the new leader of the Vaadwaur Supremacy, is objectively more reasonable and less insane than Gaul, you're full of more sh*t than a septic tank.
Honestly, I think that your love of the Kobali is based more on brainless love of a terrible television show that killed the Star Trek franchise rather than on anything substantial.
Dude, the world isn't divided into purely 'likes' or 'hates', even on something as morally questionable as the Kobali rebirth aspect, nor is everyone of the same hatred as you about them - if you can't see that, then I feel sorry for you.
Also, in the words of Alt!Spock, reverting to name-calling and insults suggests that you are defensive and therefore find it valid, but cannot (or will not) admit it to yourself. At the very least, it doesn't help your claim that you're being objective, but only negatively affects it - it only serving to reinforce markhawkman's impression that you're lashing out or something similar, rather than arguing objectively
Also, explain to me exactly how being ambivalent is 'awful'?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Dude, the world isn't divided into purely 'likes' or 'hates', even on something as morally questionable as the Kobali rebirth aspect - if you can't see that, then I feel sorry for you
Also, reverting to name-calling and insults, in the words of Alt!Spock, suggests that you are defensive and therefore find it valid, but cannot (or will not) admit it to yourself. At the very least, it doesn't help your claim that you're being objective, but only negatively affects it
You really don't understand. You really, really don't. The Kobali assume that inability to give consent equals consent. That is inherently a violation of sentient rights.
This is objective fact, and not one bit of specious preachy moral relativism BS by you will change that.
Also, your passive-aggressive arguments are winning you absolutely nothing.
I've made my position on the Kobali abundantly clear on more occasions than you care to count. If you insist on defending violators of sentient rights, you are not worth the time of debating you. I just hope that your acquaintances notify the appropriate authorities before you put your titanic lack of respect for basic sentient rights into action.
You really don't understand. You really, really don't. The Kobali assume that inability to give consent equals consent. That is inherently a violation of sentient rights.
This is objective fact, and not one bit of specious preachy moral relativism BS by you will change that.
Also, your passive-aggressive arguments are winning you absolutely nothing.
I've made my position on the Kobali abundantly clear on more occasions than you care to count. If you insist on defending violators of sentient rights, you are not worth the time of debating you. I just hope that your acquaintances notify the appropriate authorities before you put your titanic lack of respect for basic sentient rights into action.
That's my point though; I'm not defending them, and I'm not lashing out at them either. I haven't rendered judgement on them at all. Understanding does not = judgement, yet again, and understanding does not = crime or morally reprehensible either
Also, you say that it is objective, but it merely is your opinion. It is not the fact of everyone's opinions about the Kobali, and it never will be
And really, you're assuming I'm such a problem child based on this alone?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
That's my point though; I'm not defending them, and I'm not lashing out at them either. I haven't rendered judgement on them at all. Understanding does not = judgement, yet again, and understanding does not = crime or morally reprehensible either
Also, you say that it is objective, but it merely is your opinion. It is not the fact of everyone's opinions about the Kobali, and it never will be
And really, you're assuming I'm such a problem child based on this alone?
Yes. Yes, I am. You do not understand that regardless of the situation inability to give consent does not equal consent.
That alone makes you at best a disgusting person and at worst an imminent threat to anyone around you whose cognition is in any way impaired.
You fail to understand just how incredibly, disgustingly creepy you are. You fail to understand that you are tacitly supporting a society that perpetuates itself by forcibly altering people's bodies slowly, while they are still awake, and then brainwash and abuse the victims into compliance in a literally textbook fashion while slapping a veneer of monastic pseudo-pacifism on top of it to cover their rears. This. Is. Wrong. No matter where you stand, no matter how much flimsy relativism and moral weakness and Prime Directive fig-leaves you throw at it. There is NOTHING that justifies the current state of Kobali society and reproduction. There is no possible way that they are a benevolent people when this level of systematic violation and abuse is such a cornerstone of everything it means to be Kobali.
Yes. Yes, I am. You do not understand that regardless of the situation inability to give consent does not equal consent.
That alone makes you at best a disgusting person and at worst an imminent threat to anyone around you whose cognition is in any way impaired.
You fail to understand just how incredibly, disgustingly creepy you are. You fail to understand that you are tacitly supporting a society that perpetuates itself by forcibly altering people's bodies slowly, while they are still awake, and then brainwash and abuse the victims into compliance in a literally textbook fashion while slapping a veneer of monastic pseudo-pacifism on top of it to cover their rears. This. Is. Wrong. No matter where you stand, no matter how much flimsy relativism and moral weakness and Prime Directive fig-leaves you throw at it. There is NOTHING that justifies the current state of Kobali society and reproduction. There is no possible way that they are a benevolent people when this level of systematic violation and abuse is such a cornerstone of everything it means to be Kobali.
That is why I abhor you.
No, I understand, but I see the situation differently than you do. Wrong is not the same thing to everyone, after all; that's why we have opinions
I understand their ways. I do not support them in any manner, directly or indirectly; I am ambivalent - how can I be supporting it when I haven't even judged them?
You say you are objective, above all else - well consider this: if it's a fact that the Kobali's ways are abhorent, why doesn't everyone else agree? Why is it so evenly divided in the first place? Because honestly, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make it fact to everyone else. Me, markhawkman, or anyone else - and you're stating it as if it should be. And more than that, you're sinking to the level of insults and accusations at me, who hasn't even been rude to you, let alone insulted or did anything else to you other than argue.
How can you explain that, other than personal opinionated disgust, rather than the objectiveness you claim it to be?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
No, I understand, but I see the situation differently than you do. Wrong is not the same thing to everyone, after all; that's why we have opinions
I understand their ways. I do not support them in any manner, directly or indirectly; I am ambivalent - how can I be supporting it when I haven't even judged them?
You say you are objective, above all else - well consider this: if it's a fact that the Kobali's ways are abhorent, why doesn't everyone else agree? Why is it so evenly divided in the first place? Because honestly, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make it fact to everyone else. Me, markhawkman, or anyone else - and you're stating it as if it should be. And more than that, you're sinking to the level of insults and accusations at me, who hasn't even been rude to you, let alone insulted or did anything else to you.
How can you explain that, other than personal disgust, rather than the objectiveness you claim it to be?
No, I understand, but I see sexual assault differently than you do. Wrong is not the same thing to everyone, after all; that's why we have opinions
I understand how domestic abusers think. I do not support domestic abusers in any manner, directly or indirectly; I am ambivalent - how can I be supporting habitual sexual assault and domestic abuse when I haven't even judged domestic abusers who violate people's bodies to reproduce?
You say you are objective, above all else - well consider this: if it's a fact that the Kobali's ways are abhorent because of their serial and habitual domestic abuse and sexual assault of others, why doesn't everyone else agree? Why is it so evenly divided in the first place? Because honestly, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make domestic abuse being evil a fact to everyone else. Me, markhawkman, or anyone else - and you're stating it as if it should be. And more than that, you're sinking to the level of insults and accusations at me, who hasn't even been rude to you, let alone insulted or did anything else to you except by being a supercilious and passive-aggressive defender of serial war criminals.
How can you explain that sexual assault and domestic abuse are evil, other than personal disgust, rather than the objectiveness you claim it to be?
Now do you understand?
From a purely objective, literally textbook point of view, the Kobali habitually practice sexual assault, r*pe, domestic abuse, emotional abuse, and war crimes. And they see nothing wrong with these rampant abuses of sentient rights.
If you want to debate seriously, I recommend that you leave your pretentiously creepy moral relativism at the door and actually study sentient rights and the importance of consent in things like reproduction and body modification.
"questionable"? how many times have the Vaadwaur demonstrated they want to kill you by this point? The Kobali don't want us dead, thus they're a better ally.
The Vaadwaur have a much bigger fleet, better tech, and a reason to hate the Iconians on a personal level, and don't systematically abuse and brainwash new converts like the outer space equivalent of Scientologists. They're a far better ally, just one that will take actual work to recruit.
whats more is there to understand about an Entire race that treats the universe as its own personal lebensraum
They have already been shown to kill indiscriminately in patrol missions, and they communicate their personal enjoyment to their victims as they slaughter them.
But sure, lets Understand the aggressive, expansionist race who named their own faction the Vaadwuar Supremacy
And the Klingons, TNG-era Romulans, pre-revolutionary Cardassians, and Dominion are different how exactly? The Klingons in particular do all of the above proudly and unapologetically, and the Federation managed to be allies with them for almost a full century.
I understand their ways. I do not support them in any manner, directly or indirectly; I am ambivalent - how can I be supporting it when I haven't even judged them?
If you won't speak for the oppressed, then you tacitly support the oppressor. Period.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
From a purely objective, literally textbook point of view, the Kobali habitually practice sexual assault, r*pe, domestic abuse, emotional abuse, and war crimes. And they see nothing wrong with these rampant abuses of sentient rights.
If you want to debate seriously, I recommend that you leave your pretentiously creepy moral relativism at the door and actually study sentient rights and the importance of consent in things like reproduction and body modification.
Then can you explain who not everyone agrees with that? Why some don't see it, legitimately, as what you've described?
Because, what you've stated is your opinion, from what you believe of human rights. It's not everyone's beliefs though. Forcing it on other people as the only correct opinion (objective or otherwise) is simply wrong as well, and that's what I've seen you doing, to some extent, where you realize it or not. And in addition, if the Kobali were real, forcing on it their culture as well would be wrong. Stating it would not be, but forcing it on them repeatedly would
If you won't speak for the oppressed, then you tacitly support the oppressor. Period.
Maybe it's just my ambivalence speaking, but I find it simply doesn't work 'only' that way - it'd be like saying there's only 'white' and 'black' in the world, when there isn't. There's an entire spectrum between support and protest, as there between a lot of things
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Maybe it's just my ambivalence speaking, but I find it simply doesn't work that way - it'd be like saying there's only 'white' and 'black' in the world, when there isn't. There's an entire spectrum between support and protest, as there between a lot of things
Oh, I see, the golden mean fallacy. Sorry, in the real world not every topic has two equally correct sides to it.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Then can you explain who not everyone agrees with that? Why some don't see it, legitimately, as what you've described?
Because, what you've stated is your opinion, from what you believe of human rights. It's not everyone's beliefs though. Forcing it on other people as the only correct opinion (objective or otherwise) is simply wrong as well, and that's what I've seen you doing.
Let me put it this way. Call if your one last chance to prove yourself anything other than an annoying self-righteous jerk.
Say that there's a culture that believes that their bodies must be ritually consumed after their deaths. Say that this is a deeply-ingrained aspect of their culture.
You're saying that it's A-OK by you for the Kobali to take those people's bodies and turn them into Kobali in direct contravention of their beliefs. And you won't do anything besides sit there and spout weak little moral platitudes and watch.
Let me put it this way. Call if your one last chance to prove yourself anything other than an annoying self-righteous jerk.
Say that there's a culture that believes that their bodies must be ritually consumed after their deaths. Say that this is a deeply-ingrained aspect of their culture.
You're saying that it's A-OK by you for the Kobali to take those people's bodies and turn them into Kobali in direct contravention of their beliefs. And you won't do anything besides sit there and spout weak little moral platitudes and watch.
That is beyond abhorrent. Do you understand?
Hmm... Taking without permission, likely not. If they had some sort of agreement between them to take a few who did not wish the ritual-consuming (unlikely and rare as it's likely to be in described scenario), then I'd be all for it.
This is the part where you tell me that all Kobali are examples of the first bit, right?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Hmm... Taking without permission, likely not. If they had some sort of agreement between them to take a few who did not wish the ritual-consuming (unlikely and rare as it's likely to be in described scenario), then I'd be all for it.
This is the part where you tell me that all Kobali are examples of the first bit, right?
Exactly. If it were done with the fully educated knowledge and consent of the people they wanted, and they didn't have any of the brainwashing and abuse demonstrated in "Ashes to Ashes" and "Dust to Dust", then it would be merely a painful medical procedure, and acceptable. As-is, it's evil.
Now do you understand how objectively evil the Kobali are?
Exactly. If it were done with the fully educated knowledge and consent of the people they wanted, and they didn't have any of the brainwashing and abuse demonstrated in "Ashes to Ashes" and "Dust to Dust", then it would be merely a painful medical procedure, and acceptable. As-is, it's evil.
Now do you understand how objectively evil the Kobali are?
I'll tell you something - remember that lack of emotion I've mentioned? Well, as a result, I've had mostly thinking and analyzing to go on, and I've got it down to some sort of ease by now.
I've gone over the Kobali, everything I could find in STO, and from the episodes they premiered in. Step-by-step, individual reactions vs race expectations, etc etc etc, multiple times
And objectively... my opinion is not the same as yours.
It's morally questionable, and very near the line. But to me, that practice isn't a crossed line, because the Kobali aren't malicious, and the mere existence of their act isn't crossed-the-line malicious - rather, they're a lot more like children, only knowing their way, only doing their way until told otherwise, because that's all they know. I find it fits a lot more, and it doesn't make them evil, nor innocent. Very near the former, but hasn't crossed it in my eyes, because I don't personally see deliberate abuse and malice
And I'm sure with this, you have nothing more to say that you haven't already
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I'll tell you something - remember that lack of emotion I've mentioned? Well, as a result, I've had mostly thinking and analyzing to go on, and I've got it down to some sort of ease by now.
I've gone over the Kobali, everything I could find in STO, and from the episodes they premiered in. Step-by-step, individual reactions vs race expectations, etc etc etc, multiple times
And objectively... my opinion is not the same as yours.
It's morally questionable, and very near the line. But to me, that practice isn't a crossed line, because the Kobali aren't malicious, and the mere existence of their act isn't crossed-the-line malicious - rather, they're a lot more like children, only knowing their way, only doing their way until told otherwise, because that's all they know. I find it fits a lot more, and it doesn't make them evil, nor innocent. Very near the former, but hasn't crossed it in my eyes, because I don't personally see deliberate abuse and malice
And I'm sure with this, you have nothing more to say that you haven't already
Oh, so because the Kobali aren't doing it out of malice, that makes it all fine and dandy? :rolleyes:
There's a concept in criminal law you should familiarize yourself with: ignorantia juris non excusat. Not knowing that something is wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, so because the Kobali aren't doing it out of malice, that makes it all fine and dandy? :rolleyes:
There's a concept in criminal law you should familiarize yourself with: ignorantia juris non excusat. Not knowing that something is wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
I did say that it didn't make them evil, nor innocent, didn't I? So no, it isn't all fine and dandy just because of that
And also, to use that law, requires a human-vs-human case - I can only assume it'd get more complex against an alien culture's laws, so it wouldn't be as entirely effective if they were real.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I did say that it didn't make them evil, nor innocent, didn't I? So no, it isn't all fine and dandy just because of that
And also, to use that law, requires a human-vs-human case - I can only assume it'd get more complex against an alien culture's laws, so it wouldn't be as entirely effective if they were real.
Actually the concept is not unknown in the Delta Quadrant. The Benthans certainly practice it, given the story justification for Argala where they deputize you into the Guard. If you refuse, they explain that under their laws they can deputize whomever the hell they want and that you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed their border, regardless of whether you actually know what the laws are.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Actually the concept is not unknown in the Delta Quadrant. The Benthans certainly practice it, given the story justification for Argala where they deputize you into the Guard. If you refuse, they explain that under their laws they can deputize whomever the hell they want and that you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed their border, regardless of whether you actually know what the laws are.
True enough, but this is a game, and an MMO at that - some railroading will be done. The law process itself would be more complex if seen on the TV show(s), and likely just as complex if not more so if they existed in real life and new laws were made for such new situations
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Actually the concept is not unknown in the Delta Quadrant. The Benthans certainly practice it, given the story justification for Argala where they deputize you into the Guard. If you refuse, they explain that under their laws they can deputize whomever the hell they want and that you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed their border, regardless of whether you actually know what the laws are.
Then by the same vein the minute you enter orbit or beam down to Kobali prime you're bound to follow their laws and culture since you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed the border, regardless of whether you like the laws or not.
As for the Kobali and their rebirthing well, its not for me to judge an alien culture doing their own thing in their own territory. I'm decidedly neutral about it. The Kobali asked for help and the Federation chose to give it to them and in so doing gain an ally against the obviously hostile Vaudwaar. I don't like some of what they're doing but I see no reason to hate or glass their planet for it. I could name several abhorrent things the Klingons do that deserve Qo'Nos being glassed. Or the Orions. If I'm to tolerate them, I can tolerate the Kobali.
It's not the use of the dead, period, that's a problem. It's the use of the dead without consent from either the person or the next-of-kin. They do this whole thing about wanting respect for their own customs but give none in return.
Did you forget about the end of the story where they agree to change that stance? They do ask for concent now.
Then by the same vein the minute you enter orbit or beam down to Kobali prime you're bound to follow their laws and culture since you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed the border, regardless of whether you like the laws or not.
Wrong. I have to follow their laws, yes. I do not have to show any respect whatsoever to a culture that considers domestic abuse a standard practice any more than I have to respect the Klingons, Cardassians, or Dominion for deliberately targeting civilians.
Did you forget about the end of the story where they agree to change that stance? They do ask for concent now.
Given the Kobalis' habitual dishonesty would you trust them on that anymore? "Oh yeah, sure these are all the bodies we've got!" Watch them get caught at it again next FE.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
To be honest, i think that's it for the Kobali Story. All plot threads have been resolved and Dust to Dust already had a hook for the next chapter - Krenim space with more Vaadwaur shenigans.
The Vaadwaur have a much bigger fleet, better tech, and a reason to hate the Iconians on a personal level, and don't systematically abuse and brainwash new converts like the outer space equivalent of Scientologists. They're a far better ally, just one that will take actual work to recruit.
You're so far gone in your SJW ranting you've gone off the deep end.
I'm sure the Vaadwaur, servants of the Iconians, would make excellent allies against the Iconians. Just like the Undine and Elachi. Let's send somebody to try and recruit them, I nominate you. :rolleyes:
You really don't understand. You really, really don't. The Kobali assume that inability to give consent equals consent. That is inherently a violation of sentient rights as defined by Worffan101.
This is objective fact as defined by Worffan101, and not one bit of specious preachy moral relativism BS by you will change that.
Also, your passive-aggressive as defined by Worffan101 arguments are winning you absolutely nothing.
I've made my position on the Kobali abundantly clear on more occasions than you care to count. If you insist on defending violators of sentient rights as defined by Worffan101, you are not worth the time of debating you. I just hope that your acquaintances notify the appropriate authorities before you put your titanic lack of respect for basic sentient rights as defined by Worffan101 into action.
Ok my 2 cent on the Kobali:
They do not exist any more.
What we know is only a twisted legacy. They caused an inability to procreate, so they crated some mutants in the twisted believe those would be Kobali now.
The truth is they are not. They are humans, talaxiens, vaadwaur and whatever else who got indoctrinated and forced to pretend to be Kobali.
And the only reason they are "peaceful" is because their victims are dead and can't fight back... Or were until they ran into the vaadwaur.
And about the vaadwaur....Maureen they are not nice people.
But the alliance/vaadwaur conflict and the Kobali/vaadwaur conflict are not one and the same.
The first one was caused by the parasites and IS OVER NOW.
On the second one... I'm sorry... Their actions are completely valid.
The Kobali believe they have the right to mutilate dead vaadwaur to save their actually not existing culture without concent. They don't. And they are not willing to stop.
Therefore the vaadwaur have every right to stop them.
How evil they may be in other aspects, what they do on the kobali planet is self defense.
Wrong. I have to follow their laws, yes. I do not have to show any respect whatsoever to a culture that considers domestic abuse a standard practice any more than I have to respect the Klingons, Cardassians, or Dominion for deliberately targeting civilians.
Given the Kobalis' habitual dishonesty would you trust them on that anymore? "Oh yeah, sure these are all the bodies we've got!" Watch them get caught at it again next FE.
You may see it as domestic abuse, but that doesn't make it so to everyone - but that's already been established
And anyway, I'm more interested in this 'habitual dishonesty' you speak of. Thus far, their only lies have been ones of omission, of the sort that we do with a lot with darker secrets; if they were out in the open from the start, would they still like/help us? (and with the Kobali at risk of the receiving end of genocide, likely wasn't a risk they felt they could take)
It's not a clean record, but it by no means makes them consummate liars in everything they say, or malicious liars either, least imo - plus, given the restraint professional officers have to show, likely isn't enough to paint them as irredeemable just from a few incidents
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Comments
I don't support them. Nor do I hate them or their rebirth process. I have no real cause for either, personally. I understand it, and that's what I was advocating; to understand it. Not to change your opinion or anyone else's, but just to look at it from all angles before judging. That is all
Can we leave it at differences in opinion then, before we derail this thread too? The world isn't just black and white after all
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Fixed that for you because I'm trying to get it through your skull how massively creepy you're being.
But either way, like I said, I neither like, support, hate, or protest the Kobali's ways. Like a number of things, it just exists - comes a lot with not having a lot of emotions to work with
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
To be honest, absolutely nothing you just said has any basis.
You talk about how people loathe them in-universe.... but the only race actively attacking them is the Vaadwaur.
And the Vaadwaur? Yes, the Vaadwaur would be fine with less-insane leadership.... but their culture tends to follow leaders who promise them power and glory. As a group they want to rule the universe. Therefore they follow leaders who want to give them that. So, less insane leadership is unlikely.
Honestly I think your dislike of the Kobali is based more on irrational hatred than anything substantial.
My character Tsin'xing
Also, in the words of Alt!Spock, reverting to name-calling and insults suggests that you are defensive and therefore find it valid, but cannot (or will not) admit it to yourself. At the very least, it doesn't help your claim that you're being objective, but only negatively affects it - it only serving to reinforce markhawkman's impression that you're lashing out or something similar, rather than arguing objectively
Also, explain to me exactly how being ambivalent is 'awful'?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You really don't understand. You really, really don't. The Kobali assume that inability to give consent equals consent. That is inherently a violation of sentient rights.
This is objective fact, and not one bit of specious preachy moral relativism BS by you will change that.
Also, your passive-aggressive arguments are winning you absolutely nothing.
I've made my position on the Kobali abundantly clear on more occasions than you care to count. If you insist on defending violators of sentient rights, you are not worth the time of debating you. I just hope that your acquaintances notify the appropriate authorities before you put your titanic lack of respect for basic sentient rights into action.
Also, you say that it is objective, but it merely is your opinion. It is not the fact of everyone's opinions about the Kobali, and it never will be
And really, you're assuming I'm such a problem child based on this alone?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Yes. Yes, I am. You do not understand that regardless of the situation inability to give consent does not equal consent.
That alone makes you at best a disgusting person and at worst an imminent threat to anyone around you whose cognition is in any way impaired.
You fail to understand just how incredibly, disgustingly creepy you are. You fail to understand that you are tacitly supporting a society that perpetuates itself by forcibly altering people's bodies slowly, while they are still awake, and then brainwash and abuse the victims into compliance in a literally textbook fashion while slapping a veneer of monastic pseudo-pacifism on top of it to cover their rears. This. Is. Wrong. No matter where you stand, no matter how much flimsy relativism and moral weakness and Prime Directive fig-leaves you throw at it. There is NOTHING that justifies the current state of Kobali society and reproduction. There is no possible way that they are a benevolent people when this level of systematic violation and abuse is such a cornerstone of everything it means to be Kobali.
That is why I abhor you.
I understand their ways. I do not support them in any manner, directly or indirectly; I am ambivalent - how can I be supporting it when I haven't even judged them?
You say you are objective, above all else - well consider this: if it's a fact that the Kobali's ways are abhorent, why doesn't everyone else agree? Why is it so evenly divided in the first place? Because honestly, that's your opinion, but it doesn't make it fact to everyone else. Me, markhawkman, or anyone else - and you're stating it as if it should be. And more than that, you're sinking to the level of insults and accusations at me, who hasn't even been rude to you, let alone insulted or did anything else to you other than argue.
How can you explain that, other than personal opinionated disgust, rather than the objectiveness you claim it to be?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Now do you understand?
From a purely objective, literally textbook point of view, the Kobali habitually practice sexual assault, r*pe, domestic abuse, emotional abuse, and war crimes. And they see nothing wrong with these rampant abuses of sentient rights.
If you want to debate seriously, I recommend that you leave your pretentiously creepy moral relativism at the door and actually study sentient rights and the importance of consent in things like reproduction and body modification.
And the Klingons, TNG-era Romulans, pre-revolutionary Cardassians, and Dominion are different how exactly? The Klingons in particular do all of the above proudly and unapologetically, and the Federation managed to be allies with them for almost a full century.
If you won't speak for the oppressed, then you tacitly support the oppressor. Period.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Because, what you've stated is your opinion, from what you believe of human rights. It's not everyone's beliefs though. Forcing it on other people as the only correct opinion (objective or otherwise) is simply wrong as well, and that's what I've seen you doing, to some extent, where you realize it or not. And in addition, if the Kobali were real, forcing on it their culture as well would be wrong. Stating it would not be, but forcing it on them repeatedly would Maybe it's just my ambivalence speaking, but I find it simply doesn't work 'only' that way - it'd be like saying there's only 'white' and 'black' in the world, when there isn't. There's an entire spectrum between support and protest, as there between a lot of things
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Oh, I see, the golden mean fallacy. Sorry, in the real world not every topic has two equally correct sides to it.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Let me put it this way. Call if your one last chance to prove yourself anything other than an annoying self-righteous jerk.
Say that there's a culture that believes that their bodies must be ritually consumed after their deaths. Say that this is a deeply-ingrained aspect of their culture.
You're saying that it's A-OK by you for the Kobali to take those people's bodies and turn them into Kobali in direct contravention of their beliefs. And you won't do anything besides sit there and spout weak little moral platitudes and watch.
That is beyond abhorrent. Do you understand?
This is the part where you tell me that all Kobali are examples of the first bit, right?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Exactly. If it were done with the fully educated knowledge and consent of the people they wanted, and they didn't have any of the brainwashing and abuse demonstrated in "Ashes to Ashes" and "Dust to Dust", then it would be merely a painful medical procedure, and acceptable. As-is, it's evil.
Now do you understand how objectively evil the Kobali are?
I've gone over the Kobali, everything I could find in STO, and from the episodes they premiered in. Step-by-step, individual reactions vs race expectations, etc etc etc, multiple times
And objectively... my opinion is not the same as yours.
It's morally questionable, and very near the line. But to me, that practice isn't a crossed line, because the Kobali aren't malicious, and the mere existence of their act isn't crossed-the-line malicious - rather, they're a lot more like children, only knowing their way, only doing their way until told otherwise, because that's all they know. I find it fits a lot more, and it doesn't make them evil, nor innocent. Very near the former, but hasn't crossed it in my eyes, because I don't personally see deliberate abuse and malice
And I'm sure with this, you have nothing more to say that you haven't already
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Oh, so because the Kobali aren't doing it out of malice, that makes it all fine and dandy? :rolleyes:
There's a concept in criminal law you should familiarize yourself with: ignorantia juris non excusat. Not knowing that something is wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And also, to use that law, requires a human-vs-human case - I can only assume it'd get more complex against an alien culture's laws, so it wouldn't be as entirely effective if they were real.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Actually the concept is not unknown in the Delta Quadrant. The Benthans certainly practice it, given the story justification for Argala where they deputize you into the Guard. If you refuse, they explain that under their laws they can deputize whomever the hell they want and that you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed their border, regardless of whether you actually know what the laws are.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Then by the same vein the minute you enter orbit or beam down to Kobali prime you're bound to follow their laws and culture since you tacitly agreed to follow their laws when you crossed the border, regardless of whether you like the laws or not.
As for the Kobali and their rebirthing well, its not for me to judge an alien culture doing their own thing in their own territory. I'm decidedly neutral about it. The Kobali asked for help and the Federation chose to give it to them and in so doing gain an ally against the obviously hostile Vaudwaar. I don't like some of what they're doing but I see no reason to hate or glass their planet for it. I could name several abhorrent things the Klingons do that deserve Qo'Nos being glassed. Or the Orions. If I'm to tolerate them, I can tolerate the Kobali.
Given the Kobalis' habitual dishonesty would you trust them on that anymore? "Oh yeah, sure these are all the bodies we've got!" Watch them get caught at it again next FE.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You're so far gone in your SJW ranting you've gone off the deep end.
I'm sure the Vaadwaur, servants of the Iconians, would make excellent allies against the Iconians. Just like the Undine and Elachi. Let's send somebody to try and recruit them, I nominate you. :rolleyes:
My character Tsin'xing
They do not exist any more.
What we know is only a twisted legacy. They caused an inability to procreate, so they crated some mutants in the twisted believe those would be Kobali now.
The truth is they are not. They are humans, talaxiens, vaadwaur and whatever else who got indoctrinated and forced to pretend to be Kobali.
And the only reason they are "peaceful" is because their victims are dead and can't fight back... Or were until they ran into the vaadwaur.
And about the vaadwaur....Maureen they are not nice people.
But the alliance/vaadwaur conflict and the Kobali/vaadwaur conflict are not one and the same.
The first one was caused by the parasites and IS OVER NOW.
On the second one... I'm sorry... Their actions are completely valid.
The Kobali believe they have the right to mutilate dead vaadwaur to save their actually not existing culture without concent. They don't. And they are not willing to stop.
Therefore the vaadwaur have every right to stop them.
How evil they may be in other aspects, what they do on the kobali planet is self defense.
And anyway, I'm more interested in this 'habitual dishonesty' you speak of. Thus far, their only lies have been ones of omission, of the sort that we do with a lot with darker secrets; if they were out in the open from the start, would they still like/help us? (and with the Kobali at risk of the receiving end of genocide, likely wasn't a risk they felt they could take)
It's not a clean record, but it by no means makes them consummate liars in everything they say, or malicious liars either, least imo - plus, given the restraint professional officers have to show, likely isn't enough to paint them as irredeemable just from a few incidents
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.