To be honest, i think that's it for the Kobali Story. All plot threads have been resolved and Dust to Dust already had a hook for the next chapter - Krenim space with more Vaadwaur shenigans.
All except them actually releasing those helpless prisoners they keep stashed away in the temple. :rolleyes:
I'm attempting to understand some of the argument / stance here. So, let me toss this out to ponder upon:
Aren't Kryptonians (you know, Superman and the rest of the natives of his home planet) of a viewpoint that all births should be test-tube "genetically engineered via partner selection overseen by the state" babies, and that all sexual interactions are "banned" as morally abhorrent and a direct challenge to the reproductive system 'selected' by society?
Therefore, us humans are doing it wrong and need to immediately begin the practices of the Kryptonians. Mating will be all done "in vitro", test tube babies, state selection of partners, etc. etc. Though the state selected mommy and daddy will be encouraged to live together to raise the boy and girl that will replace them in society... Though mommy and daddy won't be allowed to do things in the bedroom (or any other room, or ever again) that might even hint at a new child being born outside the system...
I'd love to see how we can "force" the Kobali to follow "our" rules, but we aren't following the rules of the Kryptonians...
(and yes, this is a fictional upon fictional pile of hypothetical situations here, but I say this to get the debate flowing, not with malice or anything else like that...)
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I'm attempting to understand some of the argument / stance here. So, let me toss this out to ponder upon:
Aren't Kryptonians (you know, Superman and the rest of the natives of his home planet) of a viewpoint that all births should be test-tube "genetically engineered via partner selection overseen by the state" babies, and that all sexual interactions are "banned" as morally abhorrent and a direct challenge to the reproductive system 'selected' by society?
Therefore, us humans are doing it wrong and need to immediately begin the practices of the Kryptonians. Mating will be all done "in vitro", test tube babies, state selection of partners, etc. etc. Though the state selected mommy and daddy will be encouraged to live together to raise the boy and girl that will replace them in society... Though mommy and daddy won't be allowed to do things in the bedroom (or any other room, or ever again) that might even hint at a new child being born outside the system...
I'd love to see how we can "force" the Kobali to follow "our" rules, but we aren't following the rules of the Kryptonians...
(and yes, this is a fictional upon fictional pile of hypothetical situations here, but I say this to get the debate flowing, not with malice or anything else like that...)
What the cryptonians are doing with their own kind is their own thing, generaly spoken. I mean there are limits to what one should just stand arround and observe as an "internal matter" and when one should intervene.
But given that we do nothing against states that litarally execute sexually abused children for having sex before marriage in the real world... Let's say it's seems to take a lot for us to "intervene" unless Russia is involved....
The Kobali on the other hand do something diffrent.
They do what they do to "our" people. They did it to 2 voyager crewmen. They'll do it to any klingon and any romulan and any trill, Vulcan, reman or who ever else is associated with our allience they get their dirty hands on without consent.
Everyone who wants to become a Kobali zombie.... Ok. They could ask.
They wouldn't even need a ferengie to make profit out of it, given that a lot of people don't like... Well... Dieing.... There are probably more then enough volunteers for that to multiply the Kobali population if they'd only ask. They could take money and become the richest society in the f**** Galaxy with that.
But they don't ask. They violate people against their will and that is in my opinion simply evil.
I'm attempting to understand some of the argument / stance here. So, let me toss this out to ponder upon:
Aren't Kryptonians (you know, Superman and the rest of the natives of his home planet) of a viewpoint that all births should be test-tube "genetically engineered via partner selection overseen by the state" babies, and that all sexual interactions are "banned" as morally abhorrent and a direct challenge to the reproductive system 'selected' by society?
Therefore, us humans are doing it wrong and need to immediately begin the practices of the Kryptonians. Mating will be all done "in vitro", test tube babies, state selection of partners, etc. etc. Though the state selected mommy and daddy will be encouraged to live together to raise the boy and girl that will replace them in society... Though mommy and daddy won't be allowed to do things in the bedroom (or any other room, or ever again) that might even hint at a new child being born outside the system...
I'd love to see how we can "force" the Kobali to follow "our" rules, but we aren't following the rules of the Kryptonians...
(and yes, this is a fictional upon fictional pile of hypothetical situations here, but I say this to get the debate flowing, not with malice or anything else like that...)
Not knowing much except the most basic basics of Superman, I can't add to that argument, hehe...
As for the stances, that's sorta simple - it's divided between those who detest the Kobali + their practices based on moral standards, no excuses for their behaviors whatsoever... and those who find the Kobali morally questionable, but workable with. Basically, it's between those who see the Kobali as pure evil intentional liars, and those who see them as near-the-line, but not irredeemable otherwise.
As you might have guessed, wolfman1 and starswordc (in addition to revanddarklighter above this post) are of the former opinion, more-or-less. My personal opinion is that they're like children, doing bad things because it's all they know, and they don't know any better, keeping dark secrets because they're scared for their survival (if they told upfront, everyone could have left, and they couldn't take that chance) - doesn't fully excuse them, but it is workable/tolerable to points.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I decided to stop thinking for a while and just follow the white and green arrows on the map in the Kobali ground zone and see where they would take me, as the scenery itself is quite nice and shooting endless hordes of snake men isnt terribly boring. Then I read the story.
This is some of the most morally abject content I have ever endured in any form of literary entertainment. I cant decide if this is a terrible joke, bad writing, or a setup for something awesome.
We discover the Kobali are holding a lot of Vaudwaar in stasis. looming over them waiting for them to die so they can reanimate them, preventing the Vaudwaar from liberating them, studying their genetic makeup.
We know the Vaudwaar want their people back, and rightfully so... but we help the Kobali imprison them.
We discover that Vaudwaar have developed a means to prevent their own people from being reanimated, but we call this a 'Virus', despite the fact that it by definition is an innoculation. - So we hinder the Vaudwaar efforts to protect what is obviously a sense of their 'sanctity of life' - a theme not uncommon among our own present-day societies. Even in Star Trek lore there are races who wouldnt even let other species look upon their dead, much less reanimate them. (DS9: "Indiscretion")
To say nothing about the Prime Directive.
Moral fecundity aside, what happened to the Undine? How does Cryptic just drop the story arc they have invested so much in, to favor a story arc fabricated from a couple aliens-of-the-week that we could just as soon forgotten about?
What is a Planet Killer if it didnt ever kill any planets?
Please cryptic, Let the undine kill Kobali Prime. This story makes no sense.
GREAT post and perfect assessment of the whole kobali story arc. I found myself looking for the option choice of supporting the Vaudwaar in this as they are clearly in the right, but to no avail... it doesn't exist and Cryptic is forcing us to play a path that the Federation would NEVER actually authorize, condone or support. I'm curious how Roddenberry and Paramount execs would react to this if they actually looked into it (and in Gene's case if he were still alive).
question if the kobali can re-animate dead bodies why not re-animate their own dead the battle zone should have plenty of them or perhaps pursue cloning technology. Frankly, they should have just left the kobali out of it and used any one of the dozens of other races from the voyager series or hey new idea make one up!
You're so far gone in your SJW ranting you've gone off the deep end.
I'm sure the Vaadwaur, servants of the Iconians, would make excellent allies against the Iconians. Just like the Undine and Elachi. Let's send somebody to try and recruit them, I nominate you. :rolleyes:
Actually there's two different categories of Iconian servants: subservient species, and dupes.
The Elachi and Solanae are directly controlled by the Iconians. Trying to recruit them would, indeed, be stupid.
The Undine and Vaadwaur are dupes of the Iconians, who used their xenophobia against them. And I remind you that Tuvok reaches an accommodation with a senior Undine official in the very first mission of the Delta Rising storyline.
Meanwhile the Vaadwaur were betrayed into slavery by their then-leader, who had to have his senior commanders infested with bluegills to control them. That necessarily implies that they wouldn't have willingly gone along with the idea, and given the nationalistic pride they display I strongly doubt that as a general rule they like being used. Recruiting them into the Delta Alliance is entirely within the realm of possibility, and gulberat and I have explained plausible scenarios in other threads.
Oh, and speaking of the Elachi, has it occurred to anyone else that they reproduce using what is functionally the exact same damn method as the Kobali, i.e. parasitizing other species?
You may see it as domestic abuse, but that doesn't make it so to everyone - but that's already been established
And anyway, I'm more interested in this 'habitual dishonesty' you speak of. Thus far, their only lies have been ones of omission, of the sort that we do with a lot with darker secrets; if they were out in the open from the start, would they still like/help us? (and with the Kobali at risk of the receiving end of genocide, likely wasn't a risk they felt they could take)
It's not a clean record, but it by no means makes them consummate liars in everything they say, or malicious liars either, least imo - plus, given the restraint professional officers have to show, likely isn't enough to paint them as irredeemable just from a few incidents
1) Have you ever actually watched "Ashes to Ashes"? Classical abusive parent behavior by Jhet'leya's "father".
2) The Alliance forces asked the Kobali point-blank if they knew why the Vaads weren't pushing harder near the temple. That's mission-critical information since it affects tactical planning. The Kobali knew exactly why the Vaads were behaving that way, but said they didn't. That's a bald-faced lie about important data, not "neglecting to mention something controversial".
Later, Q'Nel promises that's the last secret they'll keep from the Alliance. Que Jhet'leya's sick crush on Keten. Lie number two, and likewise one affecting immediate military strategy.
I don't know about you, but if I was an Alliance military commander, I would be hesitant at best to put my people in harm's way based on Kobali information.
question if the kobali can re-animate dead bodies why not re-animate their own dead the battle zone should have plenty of them or perhaps pursue cloning technology. Frankly, they should have just left the kobali out of it and used any one of the dozens of other races from the voyager series or hey new idea make one up!
Given that they don't do that already the logical answer is that it only works once per corpse.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Not knowing much except the most basic basics of Superman, I can't add to that argument, hehe...
As for the stances, that's sorta simple - it's divided between those who detest the Kobali + their practices based on moral standards, no excuses for their behaviors whatsoever... and those who find the Kobali morally questionable, but workable with. Basically, it's between those who see the Kobali as pure evil intentional liars, and those who see them as near-the-line, but not irredeemable otherwise.
As you might have guessed, wolfman1 and starswordc (in addition to revanddarklighter above this post) are of the former opinion, more-or-less. My personal opinion is that they're like children, doing bad things because it's all they know, and they don't know any better, keeping dark secrets because they're scared for their survival (if they told upfront, everyone could have left, and they couldn't take that chance) - doesn't fully excuse them, but it is workable/tolerable to points.
Which is a lot like the Bynars. They lied to the Federation many times, stole the Ent-D, kidnapped Riker and Picard(among other crimes).... because they needed to borrow the Ent-D's computer and use it as a backup to prevent their main computer on Bynaus from getting wiped permanently....
When Picard asks why they went through that elaborate ruse instead of asking the Federation for help..... "You might have said no." is the only response.
Oh and the Vaadwaur can't be part of the alliance since the alliance exists to STOP them. Also... they wouldn't WANT to join unless they felt directly threatened by a third party, which would require a pretty heavy attack by a race we haven't seen in the story yet.
And no... Ashes to Ashes didn't strike me as "abusive" at all....
Which is a lot like the Bynars. They lied to the Federation many times, stole the Ent-D, kidnapped Riker and Picard(among other crimes).... because they needed to borrow the Ent-D's computer and use it as a backup to prevent their main computer on Bynaus from getting wiped permanently....
When Picard asks why they went through that elaborate ruse instead of asking the Federation for help..... "You might have said no." is the only response.
The Bynares did a one time thing out of desperation that... Well... Didn't invole sealing people's corpses, reanimating them and geneticly changing them against their will.
They stole a ship. That's it.
Oh and the Vaadwaur can't be part of the alliance since the alliance exists to STOP them. Also... they wouldn't WANT to join unless they felt directly threatened by a third party, which would require a pretty heavy attack by a race we haven't seen in the story yet.
And no... Ashes to Ashes didn't strike me as "abusive" at all....
Well the original allience was founded before we set a single step into the delta quadrant. The delta allience... Well... Who says now the leadership that started the conflict the vaadwaur can't join? Not saying that they would want but "they cant join because it was originally build to fight them" is a very poor argument.
On topic: the general fact that the Kobali keep secrets doesn't bother me that much.
The Klingons still certainly hold a lot of secrets from the federation and the romulan republic, and so certainly does the federation from the Klingons and the romulan republic.... And the romulan republic... Anyone noticed the word "romulan" in "romulan republic"?
No they have their good right to keep secrets. As long as they do not concern us especially. That's not the problem.
Reanimating people without concent is. And will always be.
Would you work with Hannibal Lector knowing he's hungry? Would you give your child to a know sexual predator?
You know they'd probably take our own soldiers who we send to help them to defend their planet and fall there and reanimate them in front of our eyes. Or are they actually polite enough to do that only to the bodies they found before us?
What the cryptonians are doing with their own kind is their own thing, generaly spoken. I mean there are limits to what one should just stand arround and observe as an "internal matter" and when one should intervene.
But given that we do nothing against states that litarally execute sexually abused children for having sex before marriage in the real world... Let's say it's seems to take a lot for us to "intervene" unless Russia is involved....
The Kobali on the other hand do something diffrent.
They do what they do to "our" people. They did it to 2 voyager crewmen. They'll do it to any klingon and any romulan and any trill, Vulcan, reman or who ever else is associated with our allience they get their dirty hands on without consent.
Everyone who wants to become a Kobali zombie.... Ok. They could ask.
They wouldn't even need a ferengie to make profit out of it, given that a lot of people don't like... Well... Dieing.... There are probably more then enough volunteers for that to multiply the Kobali population if they'd only ask. They could take money and become the richest society in the f**** Galaxy with that.
But they don't ask. They violate people against their will and that is in my opinion simply evil.
Alright. Let's consider that the "reproductive system" of Krypton can more-or-less already exist on Earth. I mean, we don't have fancy "birthing matrixes", but in-vitro fertilization and test-tube baby growth can combine the genetic material from two people into a new being without the need for sexual intercourse. Look at Indian "class dating" situations - to see that "prearrainged mating" still exists on pockets of Earth, so it's time to "reexpand" it to cover all human citizens - we could change the criteria to a more job-based instead of class-based one if you'd really like. And we can go back to Victorian type "no public displays of affection" and have it cover private lives as well.
So, since you're "so quick" to judge the Kobali on "Human" moral standards, a Kryptonian would see you, and, by their moral standard, find you "morally lacking, abhorrent and evil" for not practicing Kryptonian reproductive standards. So, why haven't you decided to be "Kryptonian good" as you're expecting the Kobali to be "human good"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
1) Have you ever actually watched "Ashes to Ashes"? Classical abusive parent behavior by Jhet'leya's "father".
2) The Alliance forces asked the Kobali point-blank if they knew why the Vaads weren't pushing harder near the temple. That's mission-critical information since it affects tactical planning. The Kobali knew exactly why the Vaads were behaving that way, but said they didn't. That's a bald-faced lie about important data, not "neglecting to mention something controversial".
Later, Q'Nel promises that's the last secret they'll keep from the Alliance. Que Jhet'leya's sick crush on Keten. Lie number two, and likewise one affecting immediate military strategy.
I don't know about you, but if I was an Alliance military commander, I would be hesitant at best to put my people in harm's way based on Kobali information.
Given that they don't do that already the logical answer is that it only works once per corpse.
1) I have recently, and that's the behavior by A parent, not ALL parents, let alone all Kobali - unless it's shown to be the case, you can never assume something is race-wide like that (even if it's implied, especially since seen implications are different between people as much as opinions). You're bound to be right as often as wrong, and I prefer to let the truth-as-I-see-it-happen tell the story rather than make assumptions like that - if there is no case shown at all, then I think about what might be the case, but I don't hold it set in stone
And if I'm not mistaken, their introductory episode only shows the one ship? It shows their cultural practice, which is generally race-wide, but how exactly does one ship with thousands (at most) determine that an entire race act the exact same way? That'd be like saying all humans are gentle
2) It is withholding tactical-crucial information, but it STILL is part of the 'holding back controversial data' angle - which as stated, with their extinction on the line, wasn't a risk worth telling the Alliance so early on. It's much like the Bynars example markhawkman mentioned; they couldn't take such a risk, and felt that even the chance of them leaving couldn't be considered. The fact that they could have thought it out more is true, but the reasoning holds up enough to show 'some' leniency, least imo
Also, as far as the lies themselves, I see you listing... over the course of the entire Kobali story, what, roughly several general lies they've told (and kept maintaining)? That they weren't keeping Vaadwaur prisoners, that they didn't know why the Vaadwaur weren't pushing harder near the temple, and such? That's more-or-less about it, right?
I don't know about you, but I need much more than that to label their entire race as irredeemable and/or consummate liars, especially with the survival + controversial angles I've mentioned - the reasons why have to be taken into account somewhere, rather than simply dismissed on the basis that they lied in the first place; that's what I believe
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
1) I have recently, and that's the behavior by A parent, not ALL parents, let alone all Kobali - unless it's shown to be the case, you can never assume something is race-wide like that (you're bound to be right as often as wrong, and I much prefer to let the truth-as-I-see-it-happen tell the story rather than make assumptions).
And if I'm not mistaken, their introductory episode only shows the one ship? It shows their cultural practice, which is generally race-wide, but how exactly does one ship with thousands (at most) determine that an entire race act the exact same way? That'd be like saying all humans are gentle, and as we all know, that isn't the case
Three ships, IIRC. And they have a specific term for people who remember their lives, and the abusive father is clearly within the bounds of normal Kobali behavior and policy, given that he gets a bunch of other KObali to help.
2) It is withholding tactical-crucial information, but it STILL is part of the 'holding back controversial data' angle - which as stated, with their extinction on the line, wasn't a risk worth telling the Alliance so early on. It's much like the Bynars example markhawkman mentioned; they couldn't take such a risk, and felt that even the chance of them leaving couldn't be considered. The fact that they could have thought it out more is true, but the reasoning holds up enough to show 'some' leniency, least imo
Also, as far as the lies themselves, I see you listing... over the course of the entire Kobali story, what, roughly several general lies they've told (and kept maintaining)? That they weren't keeping Vaadwaur prisoners, that they didn't know why the Vaadwaur weren't pushing harder near the temple, and such? That's about it, right?
I don't know about you, but I need much more than that to label their entire race as irredeemable and/or consummate liars, especially with the survival + controversial angles I've mentioned - the reasons why have to be taken into account somewhere, rather than simply dismissed on the basis that they lied in the first place; that's what I believe
IT IS MISSION-CRITICAL INFORMATION. Withholding it is inherently a violation of a treaty of alliance because it's f*cking over YOUR OWN FREAKING ALLIES!!!
It doesn't MATTER how scared you are that your allies won't like it! If it's mission-critical, you TELL THEM, or they get even MORE angry when they find out that you lied to them!
Seriously, man! Lie #1, they don't tell us why the Vaadwaur are going so hard for the temple. Lie #2, they say that they're giving the Vaadwaur back their people and they've got no more secrets. IN BOTH CASES that's mission-critical information that directly impacts the strategic judgments of Alliance Command, and the safety of Alliance personnel! And that's not including the hundred times that Q'Nel claims that he can't understand why the Vaadwaur are so upset and how they could do these things while he cheerfully talks about how he and his people violate sentient rights on a daily basis. "Oh, we haven't done anything to upset the Vaadwaur! We don't understand why the Vaadwaur wouldn't want their dead to become Kobali! We're peaceful people, we need you to die for us! We'll even resurrect you as Kobali after you die for us!"
The Kobali are sickening, and evil. Don't whitewash them.
Three ships, IIRC. And they have a specific term for people who remember their lives, and the abusive father is clearly within the bounds of normal Kobali behavior and policy, given that he gets a bunch of other KObali to help.
They allow and encourage abusive behavior. Sorry.
IT IS MISSION-CRITICAL INFORMATION. Withholding it is inherently a violation of a treaty of alliance because it's f*cking over YOUR OWN FREAKING ALLIES!!!
It doesn't MATTER how scared you are that your allies won't like it! If it's mission-critical, you TELL THEM, or they get even MORE angry when they find out that you lied to them!
Seriously, man! Lie #1, they don't tell us why the Vaadwaur are going so hard for the temple. Lie #2, they say that they're giving the Vaadwaur back their people and they've got no more secrets. IN BOTH CASES that's mission-critical information that directly impacts the strategic judgments of Alliance Command, and the safety of Alliance personnel! And that's not including the hundred times that Q'Nel claims that he can't understand why the Vaadwaur are so upset and how they could do these things while he cheerfully talks about how he and his people violate sentient rights on a daily basis. "Oh, we haven't done anything to upset the Vaadwaur! We don't understand why the Vaadwaur wouldn't want their dead to become Kobali! We're peaceful people, we need you to die for us! We'll even resurrect you as Kobali after you die for us!"
The Kobali are sickening, and evil. Don't whitewash them.
1) None of that invalidates what I just said, despite how you see them. Even groups of Kobali can have different takes on the same cultural aspect, much the same as we're all humans, but we have numerous different religions and views
One group/one father/three ships still does not = a race's entire behavior bounds
2) It DOES matter, insofar as I believe - it's fine that you don't, but that's your opinion. Which includes the part that they're sickening and evil - so you see it as whitewashing, but it isn't in mine opinion, or necessarily anyone else's - that's a fact, and you stating it doesn't make it a fact that it's whitewashing
The Kobali are sickening and evil in your opinion; that does not make them so to everyone in the world, for the final time.
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Alright. Let's consider that the "reproductive system" of Krypton can more-or-less already exist on Earth. I mean, we don't have fancy "birthing matrixes", but in-vitro fertilization and test-tube baby growth can combine the genetic material from two people into a new being without the need for sexual intercourse. Look at Indian "class dating" situations - to see that "prearrainged mating" still exists on pockets of Earth, so it's time to "reexpand" it to cover all human citizens - we could change the criteria to a more job-based instead of class-based one if you'd really like. And we can go back to Victorian type "no public displays of affection" and have it cover private lives as well.
So, since you're "so quick" to judge the Kobali on "Human" moral standards, a Kryptonian would see you, and, by their moral standard, find you "morally lacking, abhorrent and evil" for not practicing Kryptonian reproductive standards. So, why haven't you decided to be "Kryptonian good" as you're expecting the Kobali to be "human good"...
I now feel the need to point out the Kryptonians don't NEED to reproduce that way. they do it because their leaders in their les-than-infinite wisdom decided to create a computer(depending on the continuity it was either Brainiac or Eradicator) to tell them how to live.... Which resulted in the computer taking over and implementing the artificial breeding program for ulterior reasons(writing a self destruct function into Kryptonian DNA) under the pretense of ensuring there would be no genetic defects in society.
The Bynares did a one time thing out of desperation that... Well... Didn't invole sealing people's corpses, reanimating them and geneticly changing them against their will.
They stole a ship. That's it.
The comparison is one of honesty. Both races made false claims out of fear that their race would get wiped out if they told the truth.
Well the original allience was founded before we set a single step into the delta quadrant. The delta allience... Well... Who says now the leadership that started the conflict the vaadwaur can't join? Not saying that they would want but "they cant join because it was originally build to fight them" is a very poor argument.
Actually it's "they cant join because it exists to fight them"...
Three ships, IIRC. And they have a specific term for people who remember their lives,
And we have a word for "disaster" that means disasters are considered commonplace right?
and the abusive father
please do explain to me why you consider it to be abusive....
Alright. Let's consider that the "reproductive system" of Krypton can more-or-less already exist on Earth. I mean, we don't have fancy "birthing matrixes", but in-vitro fertilization and test-tube baby growth can combine the genetic material from two people into a new being without the need for sexual intercourse. Look at Indian "class dating" situations - to see that "prearrainged mating" still exists on pockets of Earth, so it's time to "reexpand" it to cover all human citizens - we could change the criteria to a more job-based instead of class-based one if you'd really like. And we can go back to Victorian type "no public displays of affection" and have it cover private lives as well.
So, since you're "so quick" to judge the Kobali on "Human" moral standards, a Kryptonian would see you, and, by their moral standard, find you "morally lacking, abhorrent and evil" for not practicing Kryptonian reproductive standards. So, why haven't you decided to be "Kryptonian good" as you're expecting the Kobali to be "human good"...
You dont get it.
It's not about moral standards.
Imagine the Canadian moral standard (or any country next to yours moral standard) is that it is completely ok to come to your country and another neighbour country, abduct women and race them and force them to have their children, to save their race because they do not have enough women.
Would you be ok with that because you don't want to "judge their moral standard"?
So if you are in conflict with that third country would you Allie with canda and let them continue to abduct women from your country?
I wouldn't.
And that's what the Kobali do. They don't **** women, but they take "our" people without concent and force something on them on very personal level they might not want at all to "save their race".
So no there no version where this is ok. What they do with themselfes is their issue, but taking our dead, which they did with the 2nd Kim and that woman from the episode.... That's not their internal problem that is no less then an attack on us.
Actually it's "they cant join because it exists to fight them"...
.
Well if in your opinion the sole reason of that allience to exist is fighting vaadwaur.... You should rephrase to "existed".
The conflict between the allience and the vaadwaur is over. But the story suggests that thei are aiming for a long time allience, a delta quadrant federation if you will. And the vaadwaur could very well become a part of that at some point. That's how trek good guy logic is supposed to work
And about the stolen ship.... I feel it's a difference if you steal one thing once or if you essentially... To stay with what I said above... Regulary abduct people and force themslefes on them.
Even the current legal systems make a diffrence. If for example A attacks B it's not a crime to take an item of C and destroy it in the process of self deffense (hitting B on the had with a vase that brakes)
It is very well a crime if A seriously hurts or kills C in the process of defending himself against B, even if that is is necessary (running with the car over C in an attempt to escape a gun wielding .
So I see a big difference between what the bynares do and what the Kobali do.
The enterprise is just an object and they tried to do everything in their power so nobody would get injured.
You dont get it.
It's not about moral standards.
Imagine the Canadian moral standard (or any country next to yours moral standard) is that it is completely ok to come to your country and another neighbour country, abduct women and race them and force them to have their children, to save their race because they do not have enough women.
Would you be ok with that because you don't want to "judge their moral standard"?
So if you are in conflict with that third country would you Allie with canda and let them continue to abduct women from your country?
I wouldn't.
And that's what the Kobali do. They don't **** women, but they take "our" people without concent and force something on them on very personal level they might not want at all to "save their race".
So no there no version where this is ok. What they do with themselfes is their issue, but taking our dead, which they did with the 2nd Kim and that woman from the episode.... That's not their internal problem that is no less then an attack on us.
I think there's one small problem with your general point - the meaning of abduct is to take an unwilling person against their will. Dead people don't have will at all, and thus it's much more morally grey than you're making it out to be
And, also personally, I think the changing process put on the previously-dead person is still in that moral grey area, neither good whatsoever, nor cross-the-line-evil - and also, that what constitutes an attack varies wildly between people, rather than a universal fact.
It's that difference between 'simple evil' and 'morally grey' that is the difference in opinions here, both with legit basis, and the arguments to go/have gone with it - at least, that's how I'm seeing it right now
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Which is a lot like the Bynars. They lied to the Federation many times, stole the Ent-D, kidnapped Riker and Picard(among other crimes).... because they needed to borrow the Ent-D's computer and use it as a backup to prevent their main computer on Bynaus from getting wiped permanently....
When Picard asks why they went through that elaborate ruse instead of asking the Federation for help..... "You might have said no." is the only response.
Which makes them at best complete idiots. Humanitarian aid is one thing the Federation is always willing to provide to warp-capable peoples on request, and a people with the necessary security clearance to work on the service flagship's computer systems should know them well enough to know that.
Oh and the Vaadwaur can't be part of the alliance since the alliance exists to STOP them.
NATO was created to stop the Soviets in the event of World War III. The first and so far only time anybody invoked the mutual defense provision of the treaty, it was 2001, well after the fall of the Soviet Union, and the target was al-Qa'ida and the Taliban.
Also... they wouldn't WANT to join unless they felt directly threatened by a third party, which would require a pretty heavy attack by a race we haven't seen in the story yet.
Being used as slave soldiers by the Iconians isn't an attack?
And we have a word for "disaster" that means disasters are considered commonplace right?
Nice of you to keep conveniently ignoring the part where we point out that there is established procedure and policy for going after escaped converts, given that multiple Kobali ships were involved in the attack on Voyager.
Let me give you some advice: don't quote-mine. It's dishonest and makes you look like a putz when you get called on it, especially when it's this obvious: you even left the comma in the piece you copied out of worffan's post. It's a common creationist and climate change-denier tactic, did you know that?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Nice of you to keep conveniently ignoring the part where we point out that there is established procedure and policy for going after escaped converts, given that multiple Kobali ships were involved in the attack on Voyager.
Let me give you some advice: don't quote-mine. It's dishonest and makes you look like a putz when you get called on it, especially when it's this obvious: you even left the comma in the piece you copied out of worffan's post. It's a common creationist and climate change-denier tactic, did you know that?
Just because the procedure exists does not mean it is in culture-wide usage - our countries on Earth have different laws, practices and procedures; why should the Kobali be assumed different in that respect based on three ships total?
And also, your quote-mine above is okay, despite what you've just said?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Just because the procedure exists does not mean it is in culture-wide usage - our countries on Earth have different laws, practices and procedures; why should the Kobali be assumed different in that respect based on three ships total?
A) The Kobali population is small enough (based on the fact that they can fit their entire population inside of one major city during the Vaadwaur invasion; can't be higher than a few million people) for there to plausibly be a monoculture. And that's with the boost of them using Vaadwaur POWs and battlefield casualties. Consider that bodies they can easily get at otherwise are naturally going to be in short supply: As a general rule people don't like it when you mess with their funeral proceedings. That's going to hold the population down.
Either it's standard procedure or the Kobali military apparently allows individual captains to take small task forces to go haring off on personal vendettas. They sent two cruisers to go hunting across several thousand light-years to kidnap Q'Ret's "daughter" back, with no recognizable tactical or strategic benefit to doing so. At Star Trek travel speeds do you find that remotely plausible without it being standard procedure?
And also, your quote-mine above is okay, despite what you've just said?
Nice try. Look at the two posts side by side. They say basically the same thing minus the quote-mining in the second one. I fully answered both, I just didn't see any point in fully quoting two functionally identical posts.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I think there's one small problem with your general point - the meaning of abduct is to take an unwilling person against their will. Dead people don't have will at all, and thus it's much more morally grey than you're making it out to be
Are you serious with that?
So if in real live someone has a accident and dies and gets revived (people have been dead for over 10 minutes before being reanimated in real life).... In your opinion its complete ok to strip them of any human rights and do with them what ever you feel serves your own needs.
Need a new liver? Lets just take it out.
Hey this girl is cute (despite of being kind of death and injured right now), just declare her your personal sex slave in the 5 minutes between accident and reanimation, that is perfectly moraly okey.
So no, given that we talk about reviving/reanimating people, in context they can only be compared to unconscious people.
And taking away unconscious people is still abduction.
And, also personally, I think the changing process put on the previously-dead person is still in that moral grey area, neither good whatsoever, nor cross-the-line-evil - and also, that what constitutes an attack varies wildly between people, rather than a universal fact.
It's that difference between 'simple evil' and 'morally grey' that is the difference in opinions here, both with legit basis, and the arguments to go/have gone with it - at least, that's how I'm seeing it right now
Yes ok you think so.
The judge that just recently convicted a 9 year old **** victim to death because having premarital sex violated the sharia.... He problaly felt himself in a really white area too.
I see nothing "grey" in what the cobali do.
The reviving itself.... ok. Without consent... not "grey", absolutely black.
I have been following this thread for a bit because of the philisophical differneces being looked at on the topic, and now have two questions:
1) Whats the deal with hurling insults and profanity (conviently covered up by astericks, like that really changes the meaning or intent). Seriously, we have people being judgmental about morals, while at the same time acting with vitreol and being immoral in their own right. Then top it of with supposition and attempted characterization of the other party as to a real world politcal belief that they obviously disagree with (although the alleged behaviors are practiced by all side of real world politics). Seriously, both sides can have an opinion about this topic without offensive behavior and trying to look at a persons poi t of view and judging them as an enemy. Is this what passes for tolerance and intellectual discussion these days? In a Star Trek, a show based on tolerance, MMO forum nonetheless?
2) Where are the moderators? They used to not allow threads to get this nasty.
I have been following this thread for a bit because of the philisophical differneces being looked at on the topic, and now have two questions:
1) Whats the deal with hurling insults and profanity (conviently covered up by astericks, like that really changes the meaning or intent). Seriously, we have people being judgmental about morals, while at the same time acting with vitreol and being immoral in their own right. Then top it of with supposition and attempted characterization of the other party as to a real world politcal belief that they obviously disagree with (although the alleged behaviors are practiced by all side of real world politics). Seriously, both sides can have an opinion about this topic without offensive behavior and trying to look at a persons poi t of view and judging them as an enemy. Is this what passes for tolerance and intellectual discussion these days? In a Star Trek, a show based on tolerance, MMO forum nonetheless?
Some of it isn't profanity, actually. The forum autocensor also blocks words like the usual term for non-consensual sex (although for some odd reason they block the verb but not the noun "rapist"), as well as oddities like a certain other MMO based on a sadly forgotten series of fantasy strategy games.
As for the rest? Cryptic tried to put in a Mass Effect-style moral conundrum and then took the actual decision out of your hands with misapplied Prime Directive babble. Frustration is inevitable.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
A) The Kobali population is small enough (based on the fact that they can fit their entire population inside of one major city during the Vaadwaur invasion; can't be higher than a few million people) for there to plausibly be a monoculture. And that's with the boost of them using Vaadwaur POWs and battlefield casualties. Consider that bodies they can easily get at otherwise are naturally going to be in short supply: As a general rule people don't like it when you mess with their funeral proceedings. That's going to hold the population down.
Either it's standard procedure or the Kobali military apparently allows individual captains to take small task forces to go haring off on personal vendettas. They sent two cruisers to go hunting across several thousand light-years to kidnap Q'Ret's "daughter" back, with no recognizable tactical or strategic benefit to doing so. At Star Trek travel speeds do you find that remotely plausible without it being standard procedure?
Nice try. Look at the two posts side by side. They say basically the same thing minus the quote-mining in the second one. I fully answered both, I just didn't see any point in fully quoting two functionally identical posts.
A) We're only seeing visiting one major hub on the planet, where the invasion is concentrated - are we supposed to believe that's the only population hub on the entire planet? Just like with the Deferi? I certainly don't assume such, but I don't know about you
That's assuming that the government or the military actually authorized this - people have gone rogue before; the Kobali father could have done so easily. Chief O'Brien's captain did so for the Cardassians, and he got his crew to follow him. Or if not rogue, going against their established orders - and how many times have we seen human captains do that?
It's just like my point is generally saying - you can't make set-in-stone assumptions, even with implications, until proof has been shown that it is such. Or at least I think so
Are you serious with that?
So if in real live someone has a accident and dies and gets revived (people have been dead for over 10 minutes before being reanimated in real life).... In your opinion its complete ok to strip them of any human rights and do with them what ever you feel serves your own needs.
Need a new liver? Lets just take it out.
Hey this girl is cute (despite of being kind of death and injured right now), just declare her your personal sex slave in the 5 minutes between accident and reanimation, that is perfectly moraly okey.
So no, given that we talk about reviving/reanimating people, in context they can only be compared to unconscious people.
And taking away unconscious people is still abduction.
Yes ok you think so.
The judge that just recently convicted a 9 year old **** victim to death because having premarital sex violated the sharia.... He problaly felt himself in a really white area too.
I see nothing "grey" in what the kobali do.
The reviving itself.... ok. Without consent... not "grey", absolutely black.
I'm sure you see your examples as explaining how 'okay' I am with their practice, but the fact is, as I stated, I see their entire practice as morally grey, not black - so stating morally black examples only furthers your own opinion
Mine is that they haven't crossed a line anywhere, yet or otherwise, because I see their practices differently than you do. And until such time as they do cross that line for me, much tolerance is needed, but they're workable
2) Where are the moderators? They used to not allow threads to get this nasty.
My guess is they probably haven't seen it for whatever reason - they don't get paid for their job, it's a big forum, and unless I'm mistaken, there's no longer a 'report to mod' function
Still, I wouldn't want to end the thread itself just because of this - ST is all about serious thinking and debates like this at the core
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I'm sure you see your examples as explaining how 'okay' I am with their practice, but the fact is, as I stated, I see their entire practice as morally grey, not black - so stating morally black examples only furthers your own opinion
Mine is that they haven't crossed a line anywhere, yet or otherwise, because I see their practices differently than you do. And until such time as they do cross that line for me, much tolerance is needed, but they're workable
They have crossed the lines by taking that Chick from the episode. They have crossed that line again by taking Kim 1.0, and they are crossing the line by holding and using Vaadwaur... what ever you may think of them.
Thats the whole point. Thats why I chose ANOTHER moral black example. What someone does in "his" sphere is to some degree "his" thing.
What a nation does with its population, what a family does in its private sphere. What the cryptonians do with their own people. As long as it does not effect others.... well when or if at all one is in a position to judge and if or when one should intervene, thats a whole different conversation.
But the Kobali cross lines wherever they go, constantly. Its basically their nature. By taking other people, violating what may be sacred to them, and, again, by constantly abducting ppl without consent.
For another comparison: Just like a Vampire... the fact that he DOES NEED your blood and needs to kill or change you in the process does not mean "its a grey area" and that you need to help them in the process.
STO does not only force us to stand by watching when the Kobali do that, no, we are supposed to HELP them in their progress of violating ppl, in that case the Vaadwaur, and that AGAINST THEIR EXPLICIT WILL. Enemies or not.
Sorry thats as black as you can get. Because my analogy with abducting women for procreation fits perfectly for their habits.
They have crossed the lines by taking that Chick from the episode. They have crossed that line again by taking Kim 1.0, and they are crossing the line by holding and using Vaadwaur... what ever you may think of them.
Thats the whole point. Thats why I chose ANOTHER moral black example. What someone does in "his" sphere is to some degree "his" thing.
What a nation does with its population, what a family does in its private sphere. What the cryptonians do with their own people. As long as it does not effect others.... well when or if at all one is in a position to judge and if or when one should intervene, thats a whole different conversation.
But the Kobali cross lines wherever they go, constantly. Its basically their nature. By taking other people, violating what may be sacred to them, and, again, by constantly abducting ppl without consent.
For another comparison: Just like a Vampire... the fact that he DOES NEED your blood and needs to kill or change you in the process does not mean "its a grey area" and that you need to help them in the process.
STO does not only force us to stand by watching when the Kobali do that, no, we are supposed to HELP them in their progress of violating ppl, in that case the Vaadwaur, and that AGAINST THEIR EXPLICIT WILL. Enemies or not.
Sorry thats as black as you can get. Because my analogy with abducting women for procreation fits perfectly for their habits.
And it's fine that you think so - but that doesn't make it fact to me that the Kobali's practices are line-crossers. People have different opinions, morals, ways of looking at the same thing, etc after all
They are to you, and that's your opinion - I simply don't agree, because my view of them is different; morally grey as opposed to pure black. Telling me how you think they're black isn't neccessarily gonna make them so to me, quite simply, even with such examples
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Some of it isn't profanity, actually. The forum autocensor also blocks words like the usual term for non-consensual sex (although for some odd reason they block the verb but not the noun "rapist"), as well as oddities like a certain other MMO based on a sadly forgotten series of fantasy strategy games.
As for the rest? Cryptic tried to put in a Mass Effect-style moral conundrum and then took the actual decision out of your hands with misapplied Prime Directive babble. Frustration is inevitable.
While I agree moral conundrums without being allowed to make a decisions is frustrating, there is absolutely no call for the insults, name calling and attacking people personally that is going on.
My guess is they probably haven't seen it for whatever reason - they don't get paid for their job, it's a big forum, and unless I'm mistaken, there's no longer a 'report to mod' function
Still, I wouldn't want to end the thread itself just because of this - ST is all about serious thinking and debates like this at the core
I am not suggesting that they shut it down, just help keep it civil, thats all.
A) We're only seeing visiting one major hub on the planet, where the invasion is concentrated - are we supposed to believe that's the only population hub on the entire planet? Just like with the Deferi? I certainly don't assume such, but I don't know about you
The Deferi aren't under active invasion at the time we see their big city (I'm not sure whether the Borg BZ happens before or after, but there's no mention of it in "Cold Call" and that would be rather a big thing to omit), and the Vaadwaur have shown no scruples about causing civilian casualties. I'm also fairly certain that General Q'Nel states early on in the story that the Vaads have already taken the rest of the planet.
Also there's the problem of how hard it is to maintain a population under the following circumstances:
Per STO the Kobali were a nomadic fleet until they ran across the Vaad cryo vault on Kobali Prime and founded a colony. In a similar case in Mass Effect, the quarian population was 17 million. We have cities on Earth bigger than that.
It also takes time for colonies to spread into the interior, and isolated sites would be easy pickings for the Vaads: they've shown no scruples about orbital bombardment either, and large-scale deflector shields like the one protecting the Kobali capital are few and far between in Star Trek. The only reason they didn't glass the main city with multi-megaton starship firepower is because the Temple is close enough to become collateral damage.
As you can observe quite readily from reactions to the Westboro Baptist Church, people really don't like it when other people interfere with funeral proceedings. And in a quadrant where nearly every species is warp-capable at roughly the same level of technology (twenty or thirty years behind the Federation), realistically the corpses they can get at to increase their population without incurring more losses from battle than they replace aren't going to be very numerous. The Kobali flavor of necromancy is logically going to be a fairly inefficient way to increase your population.
That's assuming that the government or the military actually authorized this - people have gone rogue before; the Kobali father could have done so easily. Chief O'Brien's captain did so for the Cardassians, and he got his crew to follow him. Or if not rogue, going against their established orders - and how many times have we seen human captains do that?
Explain the other ship. Also, military command structures don't tend to treat people who desert their posts or disobey orders well, plot-armored main characters notwithstanding. If what you say is true, that Q'Ret was a rogue, what was the plan for afterwards? Was he just going to stay out and never go home again? Leaving aside homesickness, not every ship is built or supplied to stay out for years on end like the Galaxy-class; in fact such vessels are rare in Star Trek. And again, note that other people don't like interference with funeral proceedings so they have the same problem keeping their numbers up that the main population does.
It's just like my point is generally saying - you can't make set-in-stone assumptions, even with implications, until proof has been shown that it is such. Or at least I think so
Look, unless it turns up onscreen or is stated as historical fact, it's all educated guesswork. But I try to make damn sure my guesswork and conclusions follow logically from both canon and implications.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Deferi aren't under active invasion at the time we see their big city (I'm not sure whether the Borg BZ happens before or after, but there's no mention of it in "Cold Call" and that would be rather a big thing to omit), and the Vaadwaur have shown no scruples about causing civilian casualties. I'm also fairly certain that General Q'Nel states early on in the story that the Vaads have already taken the rest of the planet.
Also there's the problem of how hard it is to maintain a population under the following circumstances:
Per STO the Kobali were a nomadic fleet until they ran across the Vaad cryo vault on Kobali Prime and founded a colony. In a similar case in Mass Effect, the quarian population was 17 million. We have cities on Earth bigger than that.
It also takes time for colonies to spread into the interior, and isolated sites would be easy pickings for the Vaads: they've shown no scruples about orbital bombardment either, and large-scale deflector shields like the one protecting the Kobali capital are few and far between in Star Trek. The only reason they didn't glass the main city with multi-megaton starship firepower is because the Temple is close enough to become collateral damage.
As you can observe quite readily from reactions to the Westboro Baptist Church, people really don't like it when other people interfere with funeral proceedings. And in a quadrant where nearly every species is warp-capable at roughly the same level of technology (twenty or thirty years behind the Federation), realistically the corpses they can get at to increase their population without incurring more losses from battle than they replace aren't going to be very numerous. The Kobali flavor of necromancy is logically going to be a fairly inefficient way to increase your population.
Explain the other ship. Also, military command structures don't tend to treat people who desert their posts or disobey orders well, plot-armored main characters notwithstanding. If what you say is true, that Q'Ret was a rogue, what was the plan for afterwards? Was he just going to stay out and never go home again? Leaving aside homesickness, not every ship is built or supplied to stay out for years on end like the Galaxy-class; in fact such vessels are rare in Star Trek.
Look, unless it turns up onscreen or is stated as historical fact, it's all educated guesswork. But I try to make damn sure my guesswork and conclusions follow logically from both canon and implications.
1) Even with such facts, I wouldn't count one city as the entire planet/race, with/without invasion status - that's just how I am
2) The plan for afterward? Anyone who goes rogue, or disobeys orders, usually always have reasons and/or plans to go along with them - I see no reason why they wouldn't. And we don't exactly have proof either that the Kobali's military is command-structured like our own, at least as far as I'm aware
3) And yes, just as mine is guesswork; I'm just saying we can't accept any of it as fact at face value. It's our opinions of how things might work, but it only goes as far as that - we've both thoroughly stated our opinions thus far, so the rest is bound to come up to walls
You see your implications, I saw different ones, and we both came to different conclusions
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Comments
All except them actually releasing those helpless prisoners they keep stashed away in the temple. :rolleyes:
My character Tsin'xing
Aren't Kryptonians (you know, Superman and the rest of the natives of his home planet) of a viewpoint that all births should be test-tube "genetically engineered via partner selection overseen by the state" babies, and that all sexual interactions are "banned" as morally abhorrent and a direct challenge to the reproductive system 'selected' by society?
Therefore, us humans are doing it wrong and need to immediately begin the practices of the Kryptonians. Mating will be all done "in vitro", test tube babies, state selection of partners, etc. etc. Though the state selected mommy and daddy will be encouraged to live together to raise the boy and girl that will replace them in society... Though mommy and daddy won't be allowed to do things in the bedroom (or any other room, or ever again) that might even hint at a new child being born outside the system...
I'd love to see how we can "force" the Kobali to follow "our" rules, but we aren't following the rules of the Kryptonians...
(and yes, this is a fictional upon fictional pile of hypothetical situations here, but I say this to get the debate flowing, not with malice or anything else like that...)
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
What the cryptonians are doing with their own kind is their own thing, generaly spoken. I mean there are limits to what one should just stand arround and observe as an "internal matter" and when one should intervene.
But given that we do nothing against states that litarally execute sexually abused children for having sex before marriage in the real world... Let's say it's seems to take a lot for us to "intervene" unless Russia is involved....
The Kobali on the other hand do something diffrent.
They do what they do to "our" people. They did it to 2 voyager crewmen. They'll do it to any klingon and any romulan and any trill, Vulcan, reman or who ever else is associated with our allience they get their dirty hands on without consent.
Everyone who wants to become a Kobali zombie.... Ok. They could ask.
They wouldn't even need a ferengie to make profit out of it, given that a lot of people don't like... Well... Dieing.... There are probably more then enough volunteers for that to multiply the Kobali population if they'd only ask. They could take money and become the richest society in the f**** Galaxy with that.
But they don't ask. They violate people against their will and that is in my opinion simply evil.
As for the stances, that's sorta simple - it's divided between those who detest the Kobali + their practices based on moral standards, no excuses for their behaviors whatsoever... and those who find the Kobali morally questionable, but workable with. Basically, it's between those who see the Kobali as pure evil intentional liars, and those who see them as near-the-line, but not irredeemable otherwise.
As you might have guessed, wolfman1 and starswordc (in addition to revanddarklighter above this post) are of the former opinion, more-or-less. My personal opinion is that they're like children, doing bad things because it's all they know, and they don't know any better, keeping dark secrets because they're scared for their survival (if they told upfront, everyone could have left, and they couldn't take that chance) - doesn't fully excuse them, but it is workable/tolerable to points.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
GREAT post and perfect assessment of the whole kobali story arc. I found myself looking for the option choice of supporting the Vaudwaar in this as they are clearly in the right, but to no avail... it doesn't exist and Cryptic is forcing us to play a path that the Federation would NEVER actually authorize, condone or support. I'm curious how Roddenberry and Paramount execs would react to this if they actually looked into it (and in Gene's case if he were still alive).
Meanwhile the Vaadwaur were betrayed into slavery by their then-leader, who had to have his senior commanders infested with bluegills to control them. That necessarily implies that they wouldn't have willingly gone along with the idea, and given the nationalistic pride they display I strongly doubt that as a general rule they like being used. Recruiting them into the Delta Alliance is entirely within the realm of possibility, and gulberat and I have explained plausible scenarios in other threads.
Oh, and speaking of the Elachi, has it occurred to anyone else that they reproduce using what is functionally the exact same damn method as the Kobali, i.e. parasitizing other species?
1) Have you ever actually watched "Ashes to Ashes"? Classical abusive parent behavior by Jhet'leya's "father".
2) The Alliance forces asked the Kobali point-blank if they knew why the Vaads weren't pushing harder near the temple. That's mission-critical information since it affects tactical planning. The Kobali knew exactly why the Vaads were behaving that way, but said they didn't. That's a bald-faced lie about important data, not "neglecting to mention something controversial".
Later, Q'Nel promises that's the last secret they'll keep from the Alliance. Que Jhet'leya's sick crush on Keten. Lie number two, and likewise one affecting immediate military strategy.
I don't know about you, but if I was an Alliance military commander, I would be hesitant at best to put my people in harm's way based on Kobali information.
Given that they don't do that already the logical answer is that it only works once per corpse.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
When Picard asks why they went through that elaborate ruse instead of asking the Federation for help..... "You might have said no." is the only response.
Oh and the Vaadwaur can't be part of the alliance since the alliance exists to STOP them. Also... they wouldn't WANT to join unless they felt directly threatened by a third party, which would require a pretty heavy attack by a race we haven't seen in the story yet.
And no... Ashes to Ashes didn't strike me as "abusive" at all....
My character Tsin'xing
The Bynares did a one time thing out of desperation that... Well... Didn't invole sealing people's corpses, reanimating them and geneticly changing them against their will.
They stole a ship. That's it.
Well the original allience was founded before we set a single step into the delta quadrant. The delta allience... Well... Who says now the leadership that started the conflict the vaadwaur can't join? Not saying that they would want but "they cant join because it was originally build to fight them" is a very poor argument.
On topic: the general fact that the Kobali keep secrets doesn't bother me that much.
The Klingons still certainly hold a lot of secrets from the federation and the romulan republic, and so certainly does the federation from the Klingons and the romulan republic.... And the romulan republic... Anyone noticed the word "romulan" in "romulan republic"?
No they have their good right to keep secrets. As long as they do not concern us especially. That's not the problem.
Reanimating people without concent is. And will always be.
Would you work with Hannibal Lector knowing he's hungry? Would you give your child to a know sexual predator?
You know they'd probably take our own soldiers who we send to help them to defend their planet and fall there and reanimate them in front of our eyes. Or are they actually polite enough to do that only to the bodies they found before us?
Alright. Let's consider that the "reproductive system" of Krypton can more-or-less already exist on Earth. I mean, we don't have fancy "birthing matrixes", but in-vitro fertilization and test-tube baby growth can combine the genetic material from two people into a new being without the need for sexual intercourse. Look at Indian "class dating" situations - to see that "prearrainged mating" still exists on pockets of Earth, so it's time to "reexpand" it to cover all human citizens - we could change the criteria to a more job-based instead of class-based one if you'd really like. And we can go back to Victorian type "no public displays of affection" and have it cover private lives as well.
So, since you're "so quick" to judge the Kobali on "Human" moral standards, a Kryptonian would see you, and, by their moral standard, find you "morally lacking, abhorrent and evil" for not practicing Kryptonian reproductive standards. So, why haven't you decided to be "Kryptonian good" as you're expecting the Kobali to be "human good"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
And if I'm not mistaken, their introductory episode only shows the one ship? It shows their cultural practice, which is generally race-wide, but how exactly does one ship with thousands (at most) determine that an entire race act the exact same way? That'd be like saying all humans are gentle
2) It is withholding tactical-crucial information, but it STILL is part of the 'holding back controversial data' angle - which as stated, with their extinction on the line, wasn't a risk worth telling the Alliance so early on. It's much like the Bynars example markhawkman mentioned; they couldn't take such a risk, and felt that even the chance of them leaving couldn't be considered. The fact that they could have thought it out more is true, but the reasoning holds up enough to show 'some' leniency, least imo
Also, as far as the lies themselves, I see you listing... over the course of the entire Kobali story, what, roughly several general lies they've told (and kept maintaining)? That they weren't keeping Vaadwaur prisoners, that they didn't know why the Vaadwaur weren't pushing harder near the temple, and such? That's more-or-less about it, right?
I don't know about you, but I need much more than that to label their entire race as irredeemable and/or consummate liars, especially with the survival + controversial angles I've mentioned - the reasons why have to be taken into account somewhere, rather than simply dismissed on the basis that they lied in the first place; that's what I believe
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
They allow and encourage abusive behavior. Sorry. IT IS MISSION-CRITICAL INFORMATION. Withholding it is inherently a violation of a treaty of alliance because it's f*cking over YOUR OWN FREAKING ALLIES!!!
It doesn't MATTER how scared you are that your allies won't like it! If it's mission-critical, you TELL THEM, or they get even MORE angry when they find out that you lied to them!
Seriously, man! Lie #1, they don't tell us why the Vaadwaur are going so hard for the temple. Lie #2, they say that they're giving the Vaadwaur back their people and they've got no more secrets. IN BOTH CASES that's mission-critical information that directly impacts the strategic judgments of Alliance Command, and the safety of Alliance personnel! And that's not including the hundred times that Q'Nel claims that he can't understand why the Vaadwaur are so upset and how they could do these things while he cheerfully talks about how he and his people violate sentient rights on a daily basis. "Oh, we haven't done anything to upset the Vaadwaur! We don't understand why the Vaadwaur wouldn't want their dead to become Kobali! We're peaceful people, we need you to die for us! We'll even resurrect you as Kobali after you die for us!"
The Kobali are sickening, and evil. Don't whitewash them.
One group/one father/three ships still does not = a race's entire behavior bounds
2) It DOES matter, insofar as I believe - it's fine that you don't, but that's your opinion. Which includes the part that they're sickening and evil - so you see it as whitewashing, but it isn't in mine opinion, or necessarily anyone else's - that's a fact, and you stating it doesn't make it a fact that it's whitewashing
The Kobali are sickening and evil in your opinion; that does not make them so to everyone in the world, for the final time.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
My character Tsin'xing
You dont get it.
It's not about moral standards.
Imagine the Canadian moral standard (or any country next to yours moral standard) is that it is completely ok to come to your country and another neighbour country, abduct women and race them and force them to have their children, to save their race because they do not have enough women.
Would you be ok with that because you don't want to "judge their moral standard"?
So if you are in conflict with that third country would you Allie with canda and let them continue to abduct women from your country?
I wouldn't.
And that's what the Kobali do. They don't **** women, but they take "our" people without concent and force something on them on very personal level they might not want at all to "save their race".
So no there no version where this is ok. What they do with themselfes is their issue, but taking our dead, which they did with the 2nd Kim and that woman from the episode.... That's not their internal problem that is no less then an attack on us.
Well if in your opinion the sole reason of that allience to exist is fighting vaadwaur.... You should rephrase to "existed".
The conflict between the allience and the vaadwaur is over. But the story suggests that thei are aiming for a long time allience, a delta quadrant federation if you will. And the vaadwaur could very well become a part of that at some point. That's how trek good guy logic is supposed to work
And about the stolen ship.... I feel it's a difference if you steal one thing once or if you essentially... To stay with what I said above... Regulary abduct people and force themslefes on them.
Even the current legal systems make a diffrence. If for example A attacks B it's not a crime to take an item of C and destroy it in the process of self deffense (hitting B on the had with a vase that brakes)
It is very well a crime if A seriously hurts or kills C in the process of defending himself against B, even if that is is necessary (running with the car over C in an attempt to escape a gun wielding
So I see a big difference between what the bynares do and what the Kobali do.
The enterprise is just an object and they tried to do everything in their power so nobody would get injured.
And, also personally, I think the changing process put on the previously-dead person is still in that moral grey area, neither good whatsoever, nor cross-the-line-evil - and also, that what constitutes an attack varies wildly between people, rather than a universal fact.
It's that difference between 'simple evil' and 'morally grey' that is the difference in opinions here, both with legit basis, and the arguments to go/have gone with it - at least, that's how I'm seeing it right now
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
NATO was created to stop the Soviets in the event of World War III. The first and so far only time anybody invoked the mutual defense provision of the treaty, it was 2001, well after the fall of the Soviet Union, and the target was al-Qa'ida and the Taliban.
Alliances can be repurposed.
Being used as slave soldiers by the Iconians isn't an attack?
Nice of you to keep conveniently ignoring the part where we point out that there is established procedure and policy for going after escaped converts, given that multiple Kobali ships were involved in the attack on Voyager.
Let me give you some advice: don't quote-mine. It's dishonest and makes you look like a putz when you get called on it, especially when it's this obvious: you even left the comma in the piece you copied out of worffan's post. It's a common creationist and climate change-denier tactic, did you know that?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And also, your quote-mine above is okay, despite what you've just said?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Nice try. Look at the two posts side by side. They say basically the same thing minus the quote-mining in the second one. I fully answered both, I just didn't see any point in fully quoting two functionally identical posts.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Are you serious with that?
So if in real live someone has a accident and dies and gets revived (people have been dead for over 10 minutes before being reanimated in real life).... In your opinion its complete ok to strip them of any human rights and do with them what ever you feel serves your own needs.
Need a new liver? Lets just take it out.
Hey this girl is cute (despite of being kind of death and injured right now), just declare her your personal sex slave in the 5 minutes between accident and reanimation, that is perfectly moraly okey.
So no, given that we talk about reviving/reanimating people, in context they can only be compared to unconscious people.
And taking away unconscious people is still abduction.
Yes ok you think so.
The judge that just recently convicted a 9 year old **** victim to death because having premarital sex violated the sharia.... He problaly felt himself in a really white area too.
I see nothing "grey" in what the cobali do.
The reviving itself.... ok. Without consent... not "grey", absolutely black.
1) Whats the deal with hurling insults and profanity (conviently covered up by astericks, like that really changes the meaning or intent). Seriously, we have people being judgmental about morals, while at the same time acting with vitreol and being immoral in their own right. Then top it of with supposition and attempted characterization of the other party as to a real world politcal belief that they obviously disagree with (although the alleged behaviors are practiced by all side of real world politics). Seriously, both sides can have an opinion about this topic without offensive behavior and trying to look at a persons poi t of view and judging them as an enemy. Is this what passes for tolerance and intellectual discussion these days? In a Star Trek, a show based on tolerance, MMO forum nonetheless?
2) Where are the moderators? They used to not allow threads to get this nasty.
Some of it isn't profanity, actually. The forum autocensor also blocks words like the usual term for non-consensual sex (although for some odd reason they block the verb but not the noun "rapist"), as well as oddities like a certain other MMO based on a sadly forgotten series of fantasy strategy games.
As for the rest? Cryptic tried to put in a Mass Effect-style moral conundrum and then took the actual decision out of your hands with misapplied Prime Directive babble. Frustration is inevitable.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It's just like my point is generally saying - you can't make set-in-stone assumptions, even with implications, until proof has been shown that it is such. Or at least I think so I'm sure you see your examples as explaining how 'okay' I am with their practice, but the fact is, as I stated, I see their entire practice as morally grey, not black - so stating morally black examples only furthers your own opinion
Mine is that they haven't crossed a line anywhere, yet or otherwise, because I see their practices differently than you do. And until such time as they do cross that line for me, much tolerance is needed, but they're workable My guess is they probably haven't seen it for whatever reason - they don't get paid for their job, it's a big forum, and unless I'm mistaken, there's no longer a 'report to mod' function
Still, I wouldn't want to end the thread itself just because of this - ST is all about serious thinking and debates like this at the core
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
They have crossed the lines by taking that Chick from the episode. They have crossed that line again by taking Kim 1.0, and they are crossing the line by holding and using Vaadwaur... what ever you may think of them.
Thats the whole point. Thats why I chose ANOTHER moral black example. What someone does in "his" sphere is to some degree "his" thing.
What a nation does with its population, what a family does in its private sphere. What the cryptonians do with their own people. As long as it does not effect others.... well when or if at all one is in a position to judge and if or when one should intervene, thats a whole different conversation.
But the Kobali cross lines wherever they go, constantly. Its basically their nature. By taking other people, violating what may be sacred to them, and, again, by constantly abducting ppl without consent.
For another comparison: Just like a Vampire... the fact that he DOES NEED your blood and needs to kill or change you in the process does not mean "its a grey area" and that you need to help them in the process.
STO does not only force us to stand by watching when the Kobali do that, no, we are supposed to HELP them in their progress of violating ppl, in that case the Vaadwaur, and that AGAINST THEIR EXPLICIT WILL. Enemies or not.
Sorry thats as black as you can get. Because my analogy with abducting women for procreation fits perfectly for their habits.
They are to you, and that's your opinion - I simply don't agree, because my view of them is different; morally grey as opposed to pure black. Telling me how you think they're black isn't neccessarily gonna make them so to me, quite simply, even with such examples
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
While I agree moral conundrums without being allowed to make a decisions is frustrating, there is absolutely no call for the insults, name calling and attacking people personally that is going on.
I am not suggesting that they shut it down, just help keep it civil, thats all.
Also there's the problem of how hard it is to maintain a population under the following circumstances:
- Per STO the Kobali were a nomadic fleet until they ran across the Vaad cryo vault on Kobali Prime and founded a colony. In a similar case in Mass Effect, the quarian population was 17 million. We have cities on Earth bigger than that.
- It also takes time for colonies to spread into the interior, and isolated sites would be easy pickings for the Vaads: they've shown no scruples about orbital bombardment either, and large-scale deflector shields like the one protecting the Kobali capital are few and far between in Star Trek. The only reason they didn't glass the main city with multi-megaton starship firepower is because the Temple is close enough to become collateral damage.
- As you can observe quite readily from reactions to the Westboro Baptist Church, people really don't like it when other people interfere with funeral proceedings. And in a quadrant where nearly every species is warp-capable at roughly the same level of technology (twenty or thirty years behind the Federation), realistically the corpses they can get at to increase their population without incurring more losses from battle than they replace aren't going to be very numerous. The Kobali flavor of necromancy is logically going to be a fairly inefficient way to increase your population.
Explain the other ship. Also, military command structures don't tend to treat people who desert their posts or disobey orders well, plot-armored main characters notwithstanding. If what you say is true, that Q'Ret was a rogue, what was the plan for afterwards? Was he just going to stay out and never go home again? Leaving aside homesickness, not every ship is built or supplied to stay out for years on end like the Galaxy-class; in fact such vessels are rare in Star Trek. And again, note that other people don't like interference with funeral proceedings so they have the same problem keeping their numbers up that the main population does.Look, unless it turns up onscreen or is stated as historical fact, it's all educated guesswork. But I try to make damn sure my guesswork and conclusions follow logically from both canon and implications.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
2) The plan for afterward? Anyone who goes rogue, or disobeys orders, usually always have reasons and/or plans to go along with them - I see no reason why they wouldn't. And we don't exactly have proof either that the Kobali's military is command-structured like our own, at least as far as I'm aware
3) And yes, just as mine is guesswork; I'm just saying we can't accept any of it as fact at face value. It's our opinions of how things might work, but it only goes as far as that - we've both thoroughly stated our opinions thus far, so the rest is bound to come up to walls
You see your implications, I saw different ones, and we both came to different conclusions
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.