Ships with options?! When did they introduce those??
Anyway, OP, as you know, it's not the ship to begin with, but the pilot. Unless Cryptic starts selling 'Brain Augmentation' consoles, as always, a bad player isn't truly gonna benefit from a better ship.
You know, this is why I feel like never suggesting anything any more. People on game forums go on and on about things being bad with this, that or something else. They go on and on about a chain being as strong as the weakest link. You suggest something that helps bolster that link and you get answers like above that makes me feel like I have wasted a minute of thought on fixing a bad chain. Yeah, the information is there. It's on the outdated and woefully in need of new information wiki as it was a year ago too. That doesn't help.
This is why I hate the forums and have a strong dislike for many of the folks on the forums. Did you read what you quoted there? I mean, ser-'effin'-iously.
This is why I hate the forums and have a strong dislike for many of the folks on the forums. Did you read what you quoted there? I mean, ser-'effin'-iously.
"yes, the info imho should be there"
I agreed with you.
Like...wtf? Seriously...
It was in response to the previous one. I also said it was an edit to the previous one you already replied to. I assumed you would not scroll back to check for edits to posts you already read. Scroll back and it's in better context.
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
well you really wouldn't like me then. i could care less about dps in fact all i have in my tac set up are consoles that up my shield and healing i have nothing that makes me really strong i like to see how much damage i can take and walk away without a scratch with nothing but dead ships behind me sure it takes a while but i love being a tank.well i guess i do have one really good combo i love poping gravity well then feed back TRIBBLE they kill them selves
It was in response to the previous one. I also said it was an edit to the previous one you already replied to. I assumed you would not scroll back to check for edits to posts you already read. Scroll back and it's in better context.
I'll be blunt here, and I tend to be blunt...and while it's entirely up to you, I wouldn't let anybody make you feel like you wasted time trying to help somebody on the forums. That includes me. I'm just another player with my own thoughts and opinions on things.
Somebody just asked about Shield Regeneration in another thread. That's something that's hidden. Cryptic doesn't display that for us and we have to calculate it ourselves. The information on the BOFF abilities isn't hidden. It's right there on the BOFFs. Previously we only had the information for whatever BOFF abilities were trained - all the available abilities are listed there now. That's an improvement. A player can look at those anywhere they are - they don't have to go the BOFF Trainer for partial information - they get the full info anywhere they are. It's not hidden. New players are directed to it - even not-new players are directed to it because it being botched and having to try to fix it. It's not something I could see being an excuse for poor performance. It even lists abilities you can't just buy from the manual store. And again, the information it includes isn't just some useless narrative that might not help or lead somebody astray - it's actual what it does (for the most part, it's Cryptic after all). But yeah, like I said - for folks that don't have a hybrid BOFF - they can't see what those hybrid abilities are; so it would be good for the manual store to show some of that, yeah? But it's not hidden and it's not something I could see somebody trying to explain away issues that they're having in the game.
But again, just because I feel that way - in all honesty, I don't see why you should care or feel that you shouldn't post something that you think would be helpful to folks. Not everybody is going to agree all the time, folks will have different opinions...as long as you're not intending to do some kind of harm...TRIBBLE anybody that gives you grief over something where you're trying to be helpful.
edit: And no, I did not see that you had added that as an edit to a previous post. I responded solely to the quoting of my agreeing with you.
Op, go TRIBBLE yourself. People can use whatever they want. Maybe some are still learning, maybe some want to try new things. Just because you know nothing but how to stack dps on a ship does not mean that its the only way to play. If you're having a problem, please, leave. Permanently. One less dps nut works for me.
I have to agree. The most obnoxious players in the game are the ones who insist that everybody should play their way.
Yeah, that is pretty annoying...but what does that have to do with this thread?
Did you even read the OP's first post, or the posts that even half-heartedly agreed with him?
"Someone doesn't play the way I think they should play so I want Cryptic to nerf them" is the gist of it all.
Sounds pretty annoying and sounds like half this thread.
Let's put it in some kind of elementary-school perspective, 'cause some people just don't seem to get it.
Schoolyard, recess time. You're out in the yard and want to play a game and you're finding other kids to join in. While most kids seem like they know how to play, brought the right equipment, have the right skills, you find those few that just don't get it.
Now maybe some of them know better than to join in. Their choice, all good for you.
Maybe some others join in anyway. You find out they suck, but you try to help them (however helpfully or arrogantly you come across...there's a factor that's being dodged repeatedly) and they accept your help, try to learn from it. Ok, fine.
Maybe some join in and suck and don't want to take advice and are spoiling it for you. Ok then, don't play with them. If they keep playing where you're playing, move, talk to a teacher, try to avoid them the next day, whatever. As far as the talking to a teacher-part (going to Cryptic to complain about other players), most responsible adult teachers in the same situation would give you the same advice (move, avoid them, etc.) because you're all kids at the same school in the same recess yard and have the same rights to play the same game regardless of skill.
Who are you to say that kid can't play in the recess yard with the same toys you do (shouldn't be allowed to play STFs), or can't even go to the school for that matter (shouldn't play STO at all), or shouldn't be allowed to play the same game with other kids that suck just as badly (shouldn't be allowed to queue, even with others just as bad, even if you're not there yourself to be affected)?
You made yourselves judge and jury to decide who's a better player in comparison to you, arrogantly classing yourself as the best, because some software told you your DPS was X. That's not being helpful. That's being a bully. And I guarantee that if you were on the receiving end of such treatment by players who thought you sucked and shouldn't be allowed to play the way you want, you'd be raising Hell too.
Your DPS score may be high, but if you're coming off to others in that way, your TRIBBLE$hole score is Epic.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Did you even read the OP's first post, or the posts that even half-heartedly agreed with him?
That people doing team content should meet the basic requirements for that team content? Sure, I read that...so what's the problem with that again? Not talking about folks trying to force personal requirements for a quick 'n easy run...just content requirements. So what's the problem with wanting folks to meet certain requirements so there is at least a shot at success?
That people doing team content should meet the basic requirements for that team content? Sure, I read that...so what's the problem with that again? Not talking about folks trying to force personal requirements for a quick 'n easy run...just content requirements. So what's the problem with wanting folks to meet certain requirements so there is at least a shot at success?
There's nothing wrong with it, it's the way elitists go about demanding it that is the problem. I don't particularly appreciate being trashed in normals by high DPSers for barely scratching 3 or 4k despite my best efforts to do better. Really, the nasty attitudes do not encourage me any whatsoever. It's even more infuriating when they target an obvious n00b still learning the gear ropes, how does that encourage any kind of learning? It doesn't, it's a turn-off. I'm at the point where I'm at the end of my rope for tolerating elitist advice (none of it ever works) and would rather slog my way around blind until I find something that works. Plenty of other people are hitting that point as well, no one wants to hear the condescending advice anymore. As for the n00bs, I feel for them. I know exactly how it feels to be utterly confused & lost regarding gear and how cruddy it feels to be expected to be psychic & automatically know how to do everything like there's no learning curves at all. It's bad enough that nothing is very clear-cut in gaining higher DPS, it's not like shooting fish in a barrel. Saying it is and expecting everyone to suddenly go "Oh, it's that easy, derp, shoulda bought XYZ ultra-rare console instead of rare XYZ console" is simply snotty elitist at it's core.
Your DPS score may be high, but if you're coming off to others in that way, your TRIBBLE$hole score is Epic.
That's funny.
If you go to work while unqualified so that the rest of the team has to pick up your slack, then refuse to become qualified and pull your weight, and then rant about how dare everyone else complain that they're incompetent... you would be the "TRIBBLE$hole".
You made yourselves judge and jury to decide who's a better player in comparison to you, arrogantly classing yourself as the best, because some software told you your DPS was X. That's not being helpful. That's being a bully. And I guarantee that if you were on the receiving end of such treatment by players who thought you sucked and shouldn't be allowed to play the way you want, you'd be raising Hell too.
Your DPS score may be high, but if you're coming off to others in that way, your TRIBBLE$hole score is Epic.
If I was nice this thread would have died. At least I got your attention.
As far as me picking who is helpful and who is not. Yep I was doing that completely. Bottom line is the Adv/Elite versions of the pve ques have mission goals and requirements. They are not spin around willy nilly and space and dance like a special snowflake... win a gold ribbon.
Its like saying Lets sit down and play a game of Monopoly... but throw out that rule book there. This is how I would like to play today cause I wanna do what I wanna do.
Like it or not the STFS have rules...it has objectives it has rules it has a timer. Its a no different then sitting down with ANOTHER HUMAN being and playing a board game. When you do that you can't sit down and do what ever the heck you like. You have to play by the rules. Clearly Cryptic does a poor job of making sure people sitting down at the table understand the rules.
Your right my blaming a ton of players for there incompetence was a bit jerkish of me no doubt. At least in this case cause clearly Cryptic does a poor job of laying out the rules for everyone. I naively assumed the rules where clear to everyone.... I thought a timer, obvious fail conditions, and missions that aren't all the much changed from the old ones everyone seemed to have down pat. I thought those things made the rules obvious. Clearly they do not, cause far to many people have been arguing that they can "play there way"... or that "Cryptic didn't write no rules".
The STFs are TEAM content... and yes you have to play it in a way that can accomplish the GAMES goals. Just like you won't sit down with me to play Monopoly and break out D&D Dice, or move your thimble backwards around the board.
In any event you are right I was flippant in my OP... sorry. At least where all talking about the issue.
That people doing team content should meet the basic requirements for that team content? Sure, I read that...so what's the problem with that again? Not talking about folks trying to force personal requirements for a quick 'n easy run...just content requirements. So what's the problem with wanting folks to meet certain requirements so there is at least a shot at success?
There are already basic requirements in the game. Not high enough level, then you can't fly a certain type of ship, or use a certain class of gear, or join a certain STF. And many STFs and missions boost or nerf levels according.
While that isn't enough (I know that) and what Cryptic may think can get you by (the rock-bottom stock you get with a new ship or mission rewards that are TRIBBLE or unapplicable to your build..."I'm flying a sci Oddy, what do I want cannons for?") is not good enough, it's up to the player to build their own characters up based on learned experience over time.
Yah, some players just won't get it. You know what? Who cares? If it doesn't affect you directly, then move along, nothing to see here.
If those players team up with other players that don't mind it or have no problems with compensating for inadequacies in groups you aren't a part of, then that's just fine for all involved. And you're not involved.
Who are you to dictate terms on what they should be allowed to play when you don't have to play with them? Who made you judge and jury? There's the issue.
If you do a PUG (it's not like you were dragged in kicking and screaming and Roger Rabbitting the turbolift door) and you get teamed with a player that sucks, don't team with them again. There are methods to insure this.
Fool me once...
If you keep doing PUGs knowing this is a problem, then you're the dumb@$$, not them.
Fool me twice...
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Not to call anyone out specifically, but I love the hypocrisy that always come out in anti-DPS posts.
Apparently the existence and demonstration of high DPS is "bullying" and unacceptable, yet it's perfectly acceptable bully everyone who do high DPS. They always have "nasty attitudes", are "elitists", and supposedly bully people in Normal and in PUGs.
Which is and always has been complete and utter bull****.
There are *******s at all levels of ability. Nobody lumps all those who can't meet the requirements with the militantly ignorant *******s, yet it's perfectly acceptable to lump all who do high DPS with the trolls.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
No my point pretty much is that he's an elitist jerk and doesn't have a point. You don't like the fact that someone isn't at your level that's fine but then by saying "you have to do dps and play at this level or you're a troll" is asinine at best. You don't like it, don't pug, go join a channel and team exclusively with them.
If you're not willing to put in the minimal effort it takes to hit the minimum necessary DPS to reliably complete an Advanced or Elite STF, what the heck are you even doing in an Advanced or Elite STF, PUG or otherwise?
You won't be getting any rewards unless one of those DPS-gods you QQ about pops in to carry the team....
Well, 10 marks, but if you're willing to fail repeatedly for 10 marks versus dropping to normal for 30+ marks on a successful completion, then you're a troll.
Yes, RPers and casuals can be trolls too. Being a douchebag isn't exclusive to hardcore players, despite what you may believe.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Not to call anyone out specifically, but I love the hypocrisy that always come out in anti-DPS posts.
Apparently the existence and demonstration of high DPS is "bullying" and unacceptable, yet it's perfectly acceptable bully everyone who do high DPS. They always have "nasty attitudes", are "elitists", and supposedly bully people in Normal and in PUGs.
Which is and always has been complete and utter bull****.
There are *******s at all levels of ability. Nobody lumps all those who can't meet the requirements with the militantly ignorant *******s, yet it's perfectly acceptable to lump all who do high DPS with the trolls.
The mere existence of high DPS is not the issue, and you know it. It's the treatment of the "lesser" players that is. I'll ask again:
How does a 20 or 30K DPSer chewing someone out for getting 2 or 3k in a normal acceptable behavior for the normal queues, and exactly what does one think that accomplishes anyway? Never mind the obvious question of "Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite?" Players can apparently step down a notch in difficulty, and deride the players and that's ok? Since when?
If you keep doing PUGs knowing this is a problem, then you're the dumb@$$, not them.
Fool me twice...
This is exactly the point...
Do we ALL go and hide in STF channels of one type or another and leave the ques to the true new players who will be nothing but trolled by the handful of actual trolls that only que to fail. (poor them)
Or do we make an issue of it... and hope that perhaps Cryptic adds some requirements to que, or adds some training missions that help people understand what there ships can do and what roles they can be effective in.
I love choice in general I really do... still in order to make wise choices in a build you have to understand what it is that in general makes the ship your building strong. No one is going to argue you should make heal bot escorts... yet people will argue just about every other crazy idea you can think of as being viable. Perhaps if people played around with the intended role of there ships they would do a better job in general of building out of the box builds.
At this point I am of the mind that what Cryptic needs to do is add good quality training missions... that would teach people at least the basics of the games mechanics... so people that manage to get to level 60 in fact understand such basic things as power managment, and weapon fall off ect.
Not to call anyone out specifically, but I love the hypocrisy that always come out in anti-DPS posts.
Apparently the existence and demonstration of high DPS is "bullying" and unacceptable, yet it's perfectly acceptable bully everyone who do high DPS. They always have "nasty attitudes", are "elitists", and supposedly bully people in Normal and in PUGs.
Which is and always has been complete and utter bull****.
There are *******s at all levels of ability. Nobody lumps all those who can't meet the requirements with the militantly ignorant *******s, yet it's perfectly acceptable to lump all who do high DPS with the trolls.
It's not about the fact that you do higher DPS or not. It's about how you come across and lord it over other people and demand... not ask... demand... that they comply to your vision of competance before they have fun in the game.
Mind you the OP and I hashed this out back on what... page 11... so it's all good. His point while coming across trollish (a fact that he himself admits) is valid. There are too many people in STO who don't know what they are doing, and that there has to be a better way to fix the issue. Cryptic isn't helping... they're making matters worse... so the basic premise while trollish in presentation... is accurate.
But your point that just because he or anyone does high DPS is an elitist jerk is kind of misleading. I do high DPS... a lot has to do with looking over posts the OP has made to help others with their ships and helped mine. But when you come out in a post that says "conform or gtfo" well yeah... that is being an elitist jerk.
Mind you the OP was having a bad day and spouted off, something I think we can all appreciate. I also admire him for not going back and changing his OP and just apologizing for portions of it. He owned his OP and for that while I don't agree with the attitude of in the original post, I respect that he's owning his post.
I'd have been a lot less willing to let it go if the OP was one of a couple of other people on this forums... who never help they just ***** and complain and troll. The OP has helped me and countless others, hell he even helped someone in this thread. He's allowed to have a bad day.
Doesn't make his original post any less elitist jerk in presentation... but his point is accurate... to a degree.
but i love being a tank.well i guess i do have one really good combo i love poping gravity well then feed back TRIBBLE they kill them selves
Yes, but are you willing to put in some effort to become the best tank/healer/non-DPSer you can possibly be?
This game doesn't really showcase the trinity, but at least if you're trying to be the best at whatever it is you're trying to do, there's some hope for you, even if you're trying to become the best troll ever.
There's nothing wrong with it, it's the way elitists go about demanding it that is the problem.
They demand it because you chose to (presumably repeatedly) enter into content you weren't prepared for. Of course they're frustrated; you waited until being in the midst of the content to demonstrate that you're unprepared for it.
It's always a messaging problem with casuals, but they never seem to understand that it's their own perspective that's the problem.
I managed to get most of the information I needed to meet those minimum DPS levels without ever suffering the beratement of some high-DPS player, by putting some minimal effort into reading forums to research the game's mechanics, by asking questions outside of the content, and by waiting to engage in the content until I felt overprepared.
For what it's worth, I'm still using all mkXII gear. I did some ISE with some fleet mates and it was a breeze. I've since tried both ISA and ANRA and found that I wasn't effective enough to feel I was carrying my own weight.
I don't keep queuing for ISA and ANRA; I'll wait until I've further upgraded my gear before even trying them again.
There's no sense being an ******* and purposefully entering queues that I've witnessed firsthand I have no business being in.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
The mere existence of high DPS is not the issue, and you know it. It's the treatment of the "lesser" players that is. I'll ask again:
How does a 20 or 30K DPSer chewing someone out for getting 2 or 3k in a normal acceptable behavior for the normal queues, and exactly what does one think that accomplishes anyway? Never mind the obvious question of "Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite?" Players can apparently step down a notch in difficulty, and deride the players and that's ok? Since when?
Yes those jerks exist. No one is arguing that.
I can build a ship to pull 50k if I want... when I'm board I have built ships running nothing but torps that can pull 40k.
Does that mean by default I'm out in the ques Yelling at people ? (ok granted I started this thread with a rant post lol)
Yes there are jerks in the game... some of them take there junk out on other players. Its like playing a sport in high school... everyone knew that one Jock type that was a jerk to everyone they felt lower then them. (I'm sure they had a TRIBBLE home life) That doesn't mean that everyone on the football team spat on anyone who was not.
However this thread isn't about a handful of jerks that like to jump into the normals to troll. Its about a high number of people that seem to be jumping into advanced and even elite with very little understanding of what they should be doing. Cause yes Adv/Elite modes are all about getting enough DPS on the NPCs to complete the mission before the multiple timers run out. (The ships moving to targets be they transformers gates or kangs are one timer... the mission has another) There is zero way to accomplish that goal if the team lacks on DPS. Yes a good control toon can hinder slow and even stop that first fail the mission timer and there very useful... but over all the team MUST reach a specific DPS line in order to win.
With that in mind as it isn't debatable... STFS are about DPS. Then we have to ask does Cryptic do a good job of making that clear... and helping players get to the point of having the DPS to do the job.
What they have done is throw out MK14 Gear boosts (cause it makes them $ of course)... they have added a bunch of Intel control abilities, they have in general released more and more powerful ships.
What they have FAILED to do completely is teach people how to use them. Yes in a moment of Jerkness last night I suggested just give people prebuilt ships and skip the teaching end of things... today (and last night after 20 min) I have decided what they need to do is do a better job of teaching people how all those toys work.
How does a 20 or 30K DPSer chewing someone out for getting 2 or 3k in a normal acceptable behavior for the normal queues, and exactly what does one think that accomplishes anyway? Never mind the obvious question of "Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite?" Players can apparently step down a notch in difficulty, and deride the players and that's ok? Since when?
THAT is EXACTLY the bull**** I'm talking about.
Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite? Why are they in Normal, making fun of people? Obviously, they're aholes.
Yet just because those aholes have +20k DPS, it's acceptable to make blanket statements about "high DPSers" and essentially call everyone who does +20k aholes?
Of those who have been parsed and uploaded to the DPS league post-DR, there are over 2000 accounts that have +20k DPS. You're calling those +20k "high DPSers", and you're self-righteously blasting 2000 people over something the vast majority do not engage in.
i play advanced im a 15-20k dps sci when i see people doing little to nothing i recommend they head to the redit builds page to get help as i dont specialise in what they are doing.
i dont see many scis around so mostly these folks are escorts or cruisers and i def cant help them myself
Hey, what about those of us who don't have the first clue what our DPS is? I've got a prototype Oddy beamboat, and two BOffs who do FAW, and I can shoot a lot of things on missions, but I'm too busy flying my ship, launching my Scorpions, dropping weapon turrets, popping abilities, etc, to even see how much damage each individual weapon does.
Which STF would Your Majesties graciously permit this humble peasant to attempt?
Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite? Why are they in Normal, making fun of people? Obviously, they're aholes.
Except they do it in Advanced too, and way too often. You show up with an 8-10k ship (I happen to LIKE when the mission takes 10 minutes, and I don't like flying aggressively or micromanaging my CDs), you get 3 more in that range and one guy in a 30k+ boat. The 30k annihilates everything before some of the team is even in position, TRIBBLE people out for taking too long or their 'low DPS' due to half the targets being already dead or snide remarks about the mission duration when its all done. Everyone brought a perfectly adequate ship, but because it wasn't done The Right Way the whole thing ends up a waste of everyone's time, rewards earned but zip for enjoyment. I don't even bother with STFs any more because half of them end up with That Guy in them even when trying to just go to the queues to get away from him. Its a hell of a lot more prevalent than just a couple of trolls on Normal.
It's about how you come across and lord it over other people and demand... not ask... demand... that they comply to your vision of competance before they have fun in the game.
See this is it again. "You" as in who? "High DPSers"?
Most of us who do high DPS are going to be in the DPS channels. Most of us in the DPS channel don't care about "other people" because we do private queues and never run into them. If we're in a PUG with you, we're not going to expect anything from you, because if we cared we wouldn't be in a PUG.
See, the "vision of competance" is Cryptic's vision of competence. You need a total of 35k DPS in ISA, based on the hull/shields of enemies and the 15 minute timer.
Someone from the 30k channel is perfectly happy with teammates that do 2k-3k. That's a total of 40k, and if they're in a PUG they expect to be carrying the PUG anyway. So we don't care about you. You're not making us fail.
On the other hand, those who do not do high DPS actually need their teammates to pull their weight. If you only do 7k, you need your teammates to do 7k or you fail.
So who do you think are the ones complaining about weak teammates in queues? The people who don't queue with weaker teammates unless they choose to, or those who rely on their teammates to succeed?
Frankly, I doubt the people who usually make these threads are "high DPSers", but actually those in the middle. The high DPSers are making threads about making videos about "check out how we broke the game again".
Hey, what about those of us who don't have the first clue what our DPS is? I've got a prototype Oddy beamboat, and two BOffs who do FAW, and I can shoot a lot of things on missions, but I'm too busy flying my ship, launching my Scorpions, dropping weapon turrets, popping abilities, etc, to even see how much damage each individual weapon does.
Which STF would Your Majesties graciously permit this humble peasant to attempt?
You can handle normal I'm sure (I'm not saying you need to stay there)... I'm saying start there.
This thread I found last night with a google search... it seems like a pretty recent thread where they where talking about parser programs. (if you do care about knowing your DPS numbers its the only option) Cryptic hasn't given us an in game parser. It was suggested much earlier in this thread that adding a Cryptic in game parser would be one positive step... giving people real feedback from the first time they undock as a level 1 red shirt.
In most games before I jump into a dungeon I have never played I will simply google it... so I understand the mechanics. In most MMOs dungeons are team based mission that people either group up for or speed join in something like Cryptics PvE Que.
The STFs are STOs dungeon content. So going in you have to understand the game play mechanics.
Read and watch the Elite que verison info... then start with normal. If you have issues with the normal its ok to ask for help or try and read up on other builds and do your own reaserch. If you run it a few times and beat it down... by all means try out an advanced... and do the same routine. Advanced is a big jump from normal... but at least after doing normal a few times you have an understanding of what you need to do to complete the game.
Except they do it in Advanced too, and way too often. You show up with an 8-10k ship (I happen to LIKE when the mission takes 10 minutes, and I don't like flying aggressively or micromanaging my CDs), you get 3 more in that range and one guy in a 30k+ boat. The 30k annihilates everything before some of the team is even in position, TRIBBLE people out for taking too long or their 'low DPS' due to half the targets being already dead or snide remarks about the mission duration when its all done. Everyone brought a perfectly adequate ship, but because it wasn't done The Right Way the whole thing ends up a waste of everyone's time, rewards earned but zip for enjoyment. I don't even bother with STFs any more because half of them end up with That Guy in them even when trying to just go to the queues to get away from him. Its a hell of a lot more prevalent than just a couple of trolls on Normal.
"Except" nothing. You haven't invalidated or countered my point in any way.
It's still some TRIBBLE in a 30k going into a PUG, where you shouldn't expect people to do 30k.
Again, there are over two thousand people who fall under the term "high DPSer" (according to the definition in the post I was referring to), and somehow it's acceptable to characterize us (the vast majority of whom only do premades on the DPS channels) all as aholes because of some trolls hitting PUGs.
This is most egregious because the majority of those who do high DPS and post in these forums are not those aholes trolling in-game, but usually offer information and advice.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Hey, what about those of us who don't have the first clue what our DPS is? I've got a prototype Oddy beamboat, and two BOffs who do FAW, and I can shoot a lot of things on missions, but I'm too busy flying my ship, launching my Scorpions, dropping weapon turrets, popping abilities, etc, to even see how much damage each individual weapon does.
Which STF would Your Majesties graciously permit this humble peasant to attempt?
None. Their Majesties require a minimum parse of 10k or they hate you.
Which is dumb, because I can hit 10k on my scimitard with an intentionally gimped build. And I only rarely parse, for the same reasons as you (tho it's elite drones and scorps from the Vault for me).
Comments
Anyway, OP, as you know, it's not the ship to begin with, but the pilot. Unless Cryptic starts selling 'Brain Augmentation' consoles, as always, a bad player isn't truly gonna benefit from a better ship.
This is why I hate the forums and have a strong dislike for many of the folks on the forums. Did you read what you quoted there? I mean, ser-'effin'-iously.
"yes, the info imho should be there"
I agreed with you.
Like...wtf? Seriously...
It was in response to the previous one. I also said it was an edit to the previous one you already replied to. I assumed you would not scroll back to check for edits to posts you already read. Scroll back and it's in better context.
I'll be blunt here, and I tend to be blunt...and while it's entirely up to you, I wouldn't let anybody make you feel like you wasted time trying to help somebody on the forums. That includes me. I'm just another player with my own thoughts and opinions on things.
Somebody just asked about Shield Regeneration in another thread. That's something that's hidden. Cryptic doesn't display that for us and we have to calculate it ourselves. The information on the BOFF abilities isn't hidden. It's right there on the BOFFs. Previously we only had the information for whatever BOFF abilities were trained - all the available abilities are listed there now. That's an improvement. A player can look at those anywhere they are - they don't have to go the BOFF Trainer for partial information - they get the full info anywhere they are. It's not hidden. New players are directed to it - even not-new players are directed to it because it being botched and having to try to fix it. It's not something I could see being an excuse for poor performance. It even lists abilities you can't just buy from the manual store. And again, the information it includes isn't just some useless narrative that might not help or lead somebody astray - it's actual what it does (for the most part, it's Cryptic after all). But yeah, like I said - for folks that don't have a hybrid BOFF - they can't see what those hybrid abilities are; so it would be good for the manual store to show some of that, yeah? But it's not hidden and it's not something I could see somebody trying to explain away issues that they're having in the game.
But again, just because I feel that way - in all honesty, I don't see why you should care or feel that you shouldn't post something that you think would be helpful to folks. Not everybody is going to agree all the time, folks will have different opinions...as long as you're not intending to do some kind of harm...TRIBBLE anybody that gives you grief over something where you're trying to be helpful.
edit: And no, I did not see that you had added that as an edit to a previous post. I responded solely to the quoting of my agreeing with you.
Did you even read the OP's first post, or the posts that even half-heartedly agreed with him?
"Someone doesn't play the way I think they should play so I want Cryptic to nerf them" is the gist of it all.
Sounds pretty annoying and sounds like half this thread.
Let's put it in some kind of elementary-school perspective, 'cause some people just don't seem to get it.
Schoolyard, recess time. You're out in the yard and want to play a game and you're finding other kids to join in. While most kids seem like they know how to play, brought the right equipment, have the right skills, you find those few that just don't get it.
Now maybe some of them know better than to join in. Their choice, all good for you.
Maybe some others join in anyway. You find out they suck, but you try to help them (however helpfully or arrogantly you come across...there's a factor that's being dodged repeatedly) and they accept your help, try to learn from it. Ok, fine.
Maybe some join in and suck and don't want to take advice and are spoiling it for you. Ok then, don't play with them. If they keep playing where you're playing, move, talk to a teacher, try to avoid them the next day, whatever. As far as the talking to a teacher-part (going to Cryptic to complain about other players), most responsible adult teachers in the same situation would give you the same advice (move, avoid them, etc.) because you're all kids at the same school in the same recess yard and have the same rights to play the same game regardless of skill.
Who are you to say that kid can't play in the recess yard with the same toys you do (shouldn't be allowed to play STFs), or can't even go to the school for that matter (shouldn't play STO at all), or shouldn't be allowed to play the same game with other kids that suck just as badly (shouldn't be allowed to queue, even with others just as bad, even if you're not there yourself to be affected)?
You made yourselves judge and jury to decide who's a better player in comparison to you, arrogantly classing yourself as the best, because some software told you your DPS was X. That's not being helpful. That's being a bully. And I guarantee that if you were on the receiving end of such treatment by players who thought you sucked and shouldn't be allowed to play the way you want, you'd be raising Hell too.
Your DPS score may be high, but if you're coming off to others in that way, your TRIBBLE$hole score is Epic.
That people doing team content should meet the basic requirements for that team content? Sure, I read that...so what's the problem with that again? Not talking about folks trying to force personal requirements for a quick 'n easy run...just content requirements. So what's the problem with wanting folks to meet certain requirements so there is at least a shot at success?
There's nothing wrong with it, it's the way elitists go about demanding it that is the problem. I don't particularly appreciate being trashed in normals by high DPSers for barely scratching 3 or 4k despite my best efforts to do better. Really, the nasty attitudes do not encourage me any whatsoever. It's even more infuriating when they target an obvious n00b still learning the gear ropes, how does that encourage any kind of learning? It doesn't, it's a turn-off. I'm at the point where I'm at the end of my rope for tolerating elitist advice (none of it ever works) and would rather slog my way around blind until I find something that works. Plenty of other people are hitting that point as well, no one wants to hear the condescending advice anymore. As for the n00bs, I feel for them. I know exactly how it feels to be utterly confused & lost regarding gear and how cruddy it feels to be expected to be psychic & automatically know how to do everything like there's no learning curves at all. It's bad enough that nothing is very clear-cut in gaining higher DPS, it's not like shooting fish in a barrel. Saying it is and expecting everyone to suddenly go "Oh, it's that easy, derp, shoulda bought XYZ ultra-rare console instead of rare XYZ console" is simply snotty elitist at it's core.
That's funny.
If you go to work while unqualified so that the rest of the team has to pick up your slack, then refuse to become qualified and pull your weight, and then rant about how dare everyone else complain that they're incompetent... you would be the "TRIBBLE$hole".
If I was nice this thread would have died. At least I got your attention.
As far as me picking who is helpful and who is not. Yep I was doing that completely. Bottom line is the Adv/Elite versions of the pve ques have mission goals and requirements. They are not spin around willy nilly and space and dance like a special snowflake... win a gold ribbon.
Its like saying Lets sit down and play a game of Monopoly... but throw out that rule book there. This is how I would like to play today cause I wanna do what I wanna do.
Like it or not the STFS have rules...it has objectives it has rules it has a timer. Its a no different then sitting down with ANOTHER HUMAN being and playing a board game. When you do that you can't sit down and do what ever the heck you like. You have to play by the rules. Clearly Cryptic does a poor job of making sure people sitting down at the table understand the rules.
Your right my blaming a ton of players for there incompetence was a bit jerkish of me no doubt. At least in this case cause clearly Cryptic does a poor job of laying out the rules for everyone. I naively assumed the rules where clear to everyone.... I thought a timer, obvious fail conditions, and missions that aren't all the much changed from the old ones everyone seemed to have down pat. I thought those things made the rules obvious. Clearly they do not, cause far to many people have been arguing that they can "play there way"... or that "Cryptic didn't write no rules".
The STFs are TEAM content... and yes you have to play it in a way that can accomplish the GAMES goals. Just like you won't sit down with me to play Monopoly and break out D&D Dice, or move your thimble backwards around the board.
In any event you are right I was flippant in my OP... sorry. At least where all talking about the issue.
While that isn't enough (I know that) and what Cryptic may think can get you by (the rock-bottom stock you get with a new ship or mission rewards that are TRIBBLE or unapplicable to your build..."I'm flying a sci Oddy, what do I want cannons for?") is not good enough, it's up to the player to build their own characters up based on learned experience over time.
Yah, some players just won't get it. You know what? Who cares? If it doesn't affect you directly, then move along, nothing to see here.
If those players team up with other players that don't mind it or have no problems with compensating for inadequacies in groups you aren't a part of, then that's just fine for all involved. And you're not involved.
Who are you to dictate terms on what they should be allowed to play when you don't have to play with them? Who made you judge and jury? There's the issue.
If you do a PUG (it's not like you were dragged in kicking and screaming and Roger Rabbitting the turbolift door) and you get teamed with a player that sucks, don't team with them again. There are methods to insure this.
Fool me once...
If you keep doing PUGs knowing this is a problem, then you're the dumb@$$, not them.
Fool me twice...
Apparently the existence and demonstration of high DPS is "bullying" and unacceptable, yet it's perfectly acceptable bully everyone who do high DPS. They always have "nasty attitudes", are "elitists", and supposedly bully people in Normal and in PUGs.
Which is and always has been complete and utter bull****.
There are *******s at all levels of ability. Nobody lumps all those who can't meet the requirements with the militantly ignorant *******s, yet it's perfectly acceptable to lump all who do high DPS with the trolls.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
You won't be getting any rewards unless one of those DPS-gods you QQ about pops in to carry the team....
Well, 10 marks, but if you're willing to fail repeatedly for 10 marks versus dropping to normal for 30+ marks on a successful completion, then you're a troll.
Yes, RPers and casuals can be trolls too. Being a douchebag isn't exclusive to hardcore players, despite what you may believe.
The mere existence of high DPS is not the issue, and you know it. It's the treatment of the "lesser" players that is. I'll ask again:
How does a 20 or 30K DPSer chewing someone out for getting 2 or 3k in a normal acceptable behavior for the normal queues, and exactly what does one think that accomplishes anyway? Never mind the obvious question of "Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite?" Players can apparently step down a notch in difficulty, and deride the players and that's ok? Since when?
This is exactly the point...
Do we ALL go and hide in STF channels of one type or another and leave the ques to the true new players who will be nothing but trolled by the handful of actual trolls that only que to fail. (poor them)
Or do we make an issue of it... and hope that perhaps Cryptic adds some requirements to que, or adds some training missions that help people understand what there ships can do and what roles they can be effective in.
I love choice in general I really do... still in order to make wise choices in a build you have to understand what it is that in general makes the ship your building strong. No one is going to argue you should make heal bot escorts... yet people will argue just about every other crazy idea you can think of as being viable. Perhaps if people played around with the intended role of there ships they would do a better job in general of building out of the box builds.
At this point I am of the mind that what Cryptic needs to do is add good quality training missions... that would teach people at least the basics of the games mechanics... so people that manage to get to level 60 in fact understand such basic things as power managment, and weapon fall off ect.
It's not about the fact that you do higher DPS or not. It's about how you come across and lord it over other people and demand... not ask... demand... that they comply to your vision of competance before they have fun in the game.
Mind you the OP and I hashed this out back on what... page 11... so it's all good. His point while coming across trollish (a fact that he himself admits) is valid. There are too many people in STO who don't know what they are doing, and that there has to be a better way to fix the issue. Cryptic isn't helping... they're making matters worse... so the basic premise while trollish in presentation... is accurate.
But your point that just because he or anyone does high DPS is an elitist jerk is kind of misleading. I do high DPS... a lot has to do with looking over posts the OP has made to help others with their ships and helped mine. But when you come out in a post that says "conform or gtfo" well yeah... that is being an elitist jerk.
Mind you the OP was having a bad day and spouted off, something I think we can all appreciate. I also admire him for not going back and changing his OP and just apologizing for portions of it. He owned his OP and for that while I don't agree with the attitude of in the original post, I respect that he's owning his post.
I'd have been a lot less willing to let it go if the OP was one of a couple of other people on this forums... who never help they just ***** and complain and troll. The OP has helped me and countless others, hell he even helped someone in this thread. He's allowed to have a bad day.
Doesn't make his original post any less elitist jerk in presentation... but his point is accurate... to a degree.
This game doesn't really showcase the trinity, but at least if you're trying to be the best at whatever it is you're trying to do, there's some hope for you, even if you're trying to become the best troll ever.
Both sides are saying the exact same thing...
Meanwhile, it's Cryptic who is actually setting the minimum benchmarks for DPS, or whatever other utility needed to complete a STF.
They demand it because you chose to (presumably repeatedly) enter into content you weren't prepared for. Of course they're frustrated; you waited until being in the midst of the content to demonstrate that you're unprepared for it.
It's always a messaging problem with casuals, but they never seem to understand that it's their own perspective that's the problem.
I managed to get most of the information I needed to meet those minimum DPS levels without ever suffering the beratement of some high-DPS player, by putting some minimal effort into reading forums to research the game's mechanics, by asking questions outside of the content, and by waiting to engage in the content until I felt overprepared.
For what it's worth, I'm still using all mkXII gear. I did some ISE with some fleet mates and it was a breeze. I've since tried both ISA and ANRA and found that I wasn't effective enough to feel I was carrying my own weight.
I don't keep queuing for ISA and ANRA; I'll wait until I've further upgraded my gear before even trying them again.
There's no sense being an ******* and purposefully entering queues that I've witnessed firsthand I have no business being in.
Yes those jerks exist. No one is arguing that.
I can build a ship to pull 50k if I want... when I'm board I have built ships running nothing but torps that can pull 40k.
Does that mean by default I'm out in the ques Yelling at people ? (ok granted I started this thread with a rant post lol)
Yes there are jerks in the game... some of them take there junk out on other players. Its like playing a sport in high school... everyone knew that one Jock type that was a jerk to everyone they felt lower then them. (I'm sure they had a TRIBBLE home life) That doesn't mean that everyone on the football team spat on anyone who was not.
However this thread isn't about a handful of jerks that like to jump into the normals to troll. Its about a high number of people that seem to be jumping into advanced and even elite with very little understanding of what they should be doing. Cause yes Adv/Elite modes are all about getting enough DPS on the NPCs to complete the mission before the multiple timers run out. (The ships moving to targets be they transformers gates or kangs are one timer... the mission has another) There is zero way to accomplish that goal if the team lacks on DPS. Yes a good control toon can hinder slow and even stop that first fail the mission timer and there very useful... but over all the team MUST reach a specific DPS line in order to win.
With that in mind as it isn't debatable... STFS are about DPS. Then we have to ask does Cryptic do a good job of making that clear... and helping players get to the point of having the DPS to do the job.
What they have done is throw out MK14 Gear boosts (cause it makes them $ of course)... they have added a bunch of Intel control abilities, they have in general released more and more powerful ships.
What they have FAILED to do completely is teach people how to use them. Yes in a moment of Jerkness last night I suggested just give people prebuilt ships and skip the teaching end of things... today (and last night after 20 min) I have decided what they need to do is do a better job of teaching people how all those toys work.
Such a response may be acceptable, and sadly necessary, in Advanced or Elite, but not in normals, and no one in this thread has suggested as much.
Berating a low dps player in a normal is as idiotic as taking your low dps RP-ship into Advanced or Elite.
You're raging at the wrong people, bascially....
THAT is EXACTLY the bull**** I'm talking about.
Why aren't they in Advanced or Elite? Why are they in Normal, making fun of people? Obviously, they're aholes.
Yet just because those aholes have +20k DPS, it's acceptable to make blanket statements about "high DPSers" and essentially call everyone who does +20k aholes?
Of those who have been parsed and uploaded to the DPS league post-DR, there are over 2000 accounts that have +20k DPS. You're calling those +20k "high DPSers", and you're self-righteously blasting 2000 people over something the vast majority do not engage in.
i dont see many scis around so mostly these folks are escorts or cruisers and i def cant help them myself
Which STF would Your Majesties graciously permit this humble peasant to attempt?
Except they do it in Advanced too, and way too often. You show up with an 8-10k ship (I happen to LIKE when the mission takes 10 minutes, and I don't like flying aggressively or micromanaging my CDs), you get 3 more in that range and one guy in a 30k+ boat. The 30k annihilates everything before some of the team is even in position, TRIBBLE people out for taking too long or their 'low DPS' due to half the targets being already dead or snide remarks about the mission duration when its all done. Everyone brought a perfectly adequate ship, but because it wasn't done The Right Way the whole thing ends up a waste of everyone's time, rewards earned but zip for enjoyment. I don't even bother with STFs any more because half of them end up with That Guy in them even when trying to just go to the queues to get away from him. Its a hell of a lot more prevalent than just a couple of trolls on Normal.
those who are doing the least can improve just by getting their stuff upgraded and using common since.
See this is it again. "You" as in who? "High DPSers"?
Most of us who do high DPS are going to be in the DPS channels. Most of us in the DPS channel don't care about "other people" because we do private queues and never run into them. If we're in a PUG with you, we're not going to expect anything from you, because if we cared we wouldn't be in a PUG.
See, the "vision of competance" is Cryptic's vision of competence. You need a total of 35k DPS in ISA, based on the hull/shields of enemies and the 15 minute timer.
Someone from the 30k channel is perfectly happy with teammates that do 2k-3k. That's a total of 40k, and if they're in a PUG they expect to be carrying the PUG anyway. So we don't care about you. You're not making us fail.
On the other hand, those who do not do high DPS actually need their teammates to pull their weight. If you only do 7k, you need your teammates to do 7k or you fail.
So who do you think are the ones complaining about weak teammates in queues? The people who don't queue with weaker teammates unless they choose to, or those who rely on their teammates to succeed?
Frankly, I doubt the people who usually make these threads are "high DPSers", but actually those in the middle. The high DPSers are making threads about making videos about "check out how we broke the game again".
You can handle normal I'm sure (I'm not saying you need to stay there)... I'm saying start there.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1345951
This thread I found last night with a google search... it seems like a pretty recent thread where they where talking about parser programs. (if you do care about knowing your DPS numbers its the only option) Cryptic hasn't given us an in game parser. It was suggested much earlier in this thread that adding a Cryptic in game parser would be one positive step... giving people real feedback from the first time they undock as a level 1 red shirt.
In most games before I jump into a dungeon I have never played I will simply google it... so I understand the mechanics. In most MMOs dungeons are team based mission that people either group up for or speed join in something like Cryptics PvE Que.
The STFs are STOs dungeon content. So going in you have to understand the game play mechanics.
Infected space is the most popular "simple" stf.
Not my guides but I found this with a quick google.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mission:_Infected:_The_Conduit/Walkthrough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9Pyvq5TmXs
Read and watch the Elite que verison info... then start with normal. If you have issues with the normal its ok to ask for help or try and read up on other builds and do your own reaserch. If you run it a few times and beat it down... by all means try out an advanced... and do the same routine. Advanced is a big jump from normal... but at least after doing normal a few times you have an understanding of what you need to do to complete the game.
"Except" nothing. You haven't invalidated or countered my point in any way.
It's still some TRIBBLE in a 30k going into a PUG, where you shouldn't expect people to do 30k.
Again, there are over two thousand people who fall under the term "high DPSer" (according to the definition in the post I was referring to), and somehow it's acceptable to characterize us (the vast majority of whom only do premades on the DPS channels) all as aholes because of some trolls hitting PUGs.
This is most egregious because the majority of those who do high DPS and post in these forums are not those aholes trolling in-game, but usually offer information and advice.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
None. Their Majesties require a minimum parse of 10k or they hate you.
Which is dumb, because I can hit 10k on my scimitard with an intentionally gimped build. And I only rarely parse, for the same reasons as you (tho it's elite drones and scorps from the Vault for me).