Excuse me for not posting this 'til now. It was intended to be posted last night (wee hours), but I do actually sleep sometimes.
While the OP infuriated me and apparently others as well (and he has since edited, explained, apologized, etc.), I understand some of the reasons and frustrations behind it. But there are useful and helpful and courteous ways of going about fixing it and I've mentioned them myself (Foundry tutorials, understandable guides, etc.).
Generalizing everyone into a category of being a "terrible player" because they don't have scores to meet your criteria is no different than the claims that, if you do have scores that meet that criteria, you're an arrogant know-it-all jack@$$ that wants to TRIBBLE everyone else's gameplay. We know the bulk of both sides aren't that way. And just because someone's casual or a RPer does not mean they suck.
There are some players that just don't get it. Some of those can be helped. Some can't. Some don't want to. Some take pride in being TRIBBLE$holes and trolls.
Likewise, there are some high-scorers that think that gives them the right to laud it over everyone else's head and expect all others to bend-and-scrape in submission. Some of them don't care that they're also being TRIBBLE$holes. Some take pride in mingling with the "lesser beings" and making their lives miserable (Q-wannabes).
I wonder how many of any of those problem children are really participating in this thread.
As I do not identify with either minority group (I'm not a high-scorer and I'm not an STF troll; I earned/bought what I have without piggybacking other players), I took personal offense at the OP's arrogance in declaring that all not like him should be nerfed, as well as others attempting to validate and agree with his stance. This is no different than a casual saying all high-scorers shouldn't be allowed to <fill in the blank>.
Neither side is right. Get it?
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
If I chose to go into an Advanced or Elite STF with sub-standard gear, yes, I'd expect to get grief. Duh! I'm agreeing with you! But I'm not doing into Advanced or Elite STFs, so do not think you have any more claim to this game than I do to try and nerf my build/ship/gear/playstyle because it doesn't suit you! And this is directed not just to OP...which I think I've already addressed directly...but to those in this thread that just don't get it.
The noobs that you're wanting to get rid of are quite probably not aware of this thread or this issue at all and, therefore, won't get your hate message that is, instead, flung at those that are innocent of the "crime" and are simply acting in outrage to your apparent arrogance that has been prominently displayed.
Likewise, if you high-scorers drop down in difficulty to easier content and find that other players don't live up to your standards, remember where you are.
You stay on your side of the tracks and we'll stay on our side.
That being said, to deal with those, again, that just don't get it and insist on griefing and trolling, there are ways to fix the problem that Cryptic already designed into the game. Private queues, fleets, closed teams...all acceptable ways to shut out undesirables on both ends. I doubt Cryptic will design any kind of more complicated rating system since they have enough problems fielding content as it is.
While you can see fit to state helpful ideas and counsel other "lesser" players on how to be more to your standard, guess what? You can also take our counsel that there are ways to avoid those that insist on griefing your STFs.
If you can't take our advice, how can you expect us to take yours?
Just to be perfectly clear I added the edit to the OP, cause yes it was hot headed. Most of what I said however is 100% true.
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
I am not being elitist... I am simply aware of the design of the mission... as is everyone else reading this if there honest. Each STF has X number of NPCs that must die (it never ever changes in infected for instance) They have Y number of Hull HP. As a team you need to remove that combined number of NPC Hit points in the time given. That means there is 100% FACT a hard cut off point where if your team doesn't have X DPS you will fail its only a matter of time. As for the moving Fail line... yes you don't have to DPS them down in the window of time it takes them to get to the point where you auto fail... you CAN choose to control them and that is perfectly fine.
Those are just the Facts of the STF missions... I'm not the one that designed the stupid things... but I am smart enough to see how they work. So yes I say people playing the Advanced or Elite versions of those missions (public que or not) should take the time to build ships that are capable of pulling there own weight. (I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I did rage yesterday no doubt... I failed 2 in a row, and thinking back I may have in fact had an a few actual trolls in the mission with me. In which case this entire thread like has them nice and frothy.
Overall as most people have agreed on in the thread after all these pages... some education is likely the best semi-fix. Cryptic really needs to do a better job of teaching players the basics of the game. This game is far to easy to get to 60+ and still really not have a good handle on the basics.
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
I'd like to point out that we actually do regularly get these threads in various forms.
Complaints about DPSers skewing the metrics, complaints that Cryptic made things DPS centric, complaints that their special snowflakes are no longer viable. If someone asks about what they're doing they always get defensive, that their actual build and gear and tactics shouldn't matter, it should be viable anyway. They pretty much always boil down to "I don't want to learn the game mechanics, the Advanced should be easy enough that I can do whatever I want and still beat it".
(I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I tell people this over and over. If you do 8k DPS on average as a team, you won't set any records but you will win - so long as NPC X doesn't do Y as in heal a generator or get through a hoop.
There are some nasty surprises going from normal to advanced though that a first time runner will face. Vortex for example. That little shere that pops in normal when you kill 2 generators... easy enough. That cube on Advanced, when not ready for it, not so easy. Then there is Raptor hell in Cure. :eek:
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
Considering the video linked earlier in this thread as an example (yes, I actually watched it...mostly a cluster@#$% but I got the basics) and a couple of responses to it, you're not 100% true. (This isn't my first rodeo, I just don't see the need to post my "resum
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The fact that the trolls you despise so much are probably unaware of this thread and are likely at this very moment going about their daily trolling despite your wailing and gnashing of teeth makes me LOL and shows how pointless this whole damned thread was to begin with.
Na if one person woke up and realized that yes the STFs and in general 99% of the games qued PvE missions are in fact just DPS clocks... then mission accomplished.
As I have said the Borg stfs all have one Moving timer... that can be Crowd Controled. Of course some Debuffing is also viable to help the entire team, DO MORE DPS.
I'm sure you do just fine... in my xp in general people that take the time to be on the forums. In general at least take some time to build proper ships and try to be effective. I'm sure you do just fine. The min passing grade for the advanced modes isn't exactly high... for Elite is a bit higher. Still if you que for it I am willing to bet your at least pulling your min... as I have said more then a few times I can't understand how people can't be. (yet so many seem to be) in the end it has to be basics that are missed. I mean if you take a rainbow build with white mk x dmg consoles and understand power and weapon range mechanics you should still be able to pull 7-8k.
Anyway ya... no more point going back and forth on this.
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
EDIT:
I won't go and change my initial some what flippant OP. I will simply edit this as some have suggested to say. Yes I was a bit of a jerk in the above. I still feel I had a point... we have had some good conversation over 20+ pages now. Before you respond with a Die in a fire OP... read though at least some of the conversation. Some good ideas to help with ALL our our que issues have come up in the following pages. Thanks.
Wow.... is it hard being all the way up there, alone? Is the thin air getting you lightheaded?
Last I knew, this was a game for everyone, not just you. Perhaps you'd be better off playing a console game or something...
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
This! I am in the same zone. I have lots of alts and I like to fly fun builds, a mine boat with pattern Alpha, does anybody do that. Don't be afraid, I won't come to your advanced or elite queu.
Nevertheless Cryptic should revamp things here. Cut the high DPS and lower the HP of NPC. Remember, a high DPS built is also an exotic build, a niche thing. Cap crit percentage at 10%. A crit should be a very rare and extreme hit. You should not see it often.
What is the point of having all kinds of ship gear and have all kinds of options to outfit your ship, while most of it is useless and does not work.
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
10K is enough for advanced content if you understand the missions, which i'm guessing you do.
I don't think anyone is saying that everyone has to get 50K+ now. It's the people doing less than 7k and showing up in advanced and elite queues. People can be casual gamers and get 8K dps.
In-game DPS combatlog reader for the player's eyes only. I'll keep saying it until they do it. Cryptic made STO all about DPS to the deficit of the game. The least they can do is give new or uniformed players some way to gauge their combat effectiveness.
Something like this would help players and help STO. I just wish we could get them to stop nerfing everything and pay attention to items like this from time to time.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
This is my problem, I need to do conduit on advanced with my Kling toon for the bnp's and can't do it without spending a lot of ec for gear I don't want. I have this 10k dps toon and really no need to do any stf's since she had all rep and have done all story missions
the alts are no where geared for what I need to do stf's but since I don't want them with the anti-pton dps build I need rep stuff so right now I am kinda stuck
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
Infected Conduit can fail if a sphere gets through and Borg Disconnected is about rescuing the Borg not blowing up the enemies. You could have one meelion DPS and still fail IC if someone popped a generator on the side you weren't on and a sphere got into healing range.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
And this post perfetly sums up the STO Forums...a gethering place of crazed lunatics and sociopaths....If I ever quit STO, it will be because of the TRIBBLE posted here!
And this post perfetly sums up the STO Forums...a gethering place of crazed lunatics and sociopaths....If I ever quit STO, it will be because of the TRIBBLE posted here!
I'll bring up my board game analogy again.
Just like forum posters people in games can sometimes forget there playing with actual people. (and yes that is a dig at myself)
If we where to sit down and play a game of monopoly together... we can sit down and have a good time. However we would have to follow the rules.
I'm not going to sit down and say ok I'm the thimble and my thimble goes counter clockwise round the board cause I want to. My point is if your going to play a game with another person you can have lots of fun and a great time, while following the rules. Sitting down to play with someone and ignoring the rules is ignorant and rude.
The STFs are one of the few standard MMO mechanic things in the game. Meaning that yes they have rules, they are designed for teams, and they can be lost. While my initial words where harsh... I don't think anyone in this thread is saying people should take off an never come back. We are saying if your going to sit down and play a game with me, at least take the time to read the rules first. Understand what you are jumping into, and bring something capable of at least possibly having success. If you are bringing ships with less then 7-8k DPS into advanced versions of those missions you are setting your team up to fail.
The idea I proposed in the OP isn't realistic no... some training missions would be very realistic though. Its not about forcing people to play as I like... or even as Cryptic likes. (they make the STF rules not I). Its about teaching people the rules of the game... so they can have more fun.
Where in the rules does it say you have to go left instead of right for ISA?
Not what I'm talking about. In most MMOs though there are "standard" best practice things that people do in general so everyone is on the same page every run. In this game long ago someone decided left was the best way to go. (so that there wasn't any confusion) If you want to start an infected run and say in team chat "lets all go right first to do something different" go for it. lol
As we have pointed out in this thread more then a few times... Cryptic does a terrible job of letting people know what they should be bringing to the Advanced / Elite STFs. They made mention of Elite not being for everyone in there dev blog about the overhaul... they for sure don't do that in the game though.
Its been pointed out a 100 times in this thread now by this point. The rules aren't written no but they are very clear. Your team requires X DPS to complete a STF. In the case of Infected advanced that's around 35k DPS total between 5 people. So by bringing less then 7k DPS to that mission you are setting 4 other people up to fail.
In the end the overhaul of the STFs has pointed out one major issue with STO imo.
That is Cryptics lack of training in this game. Don't get me wrong I understand this is a Trek RP lovers dream game... and letting us run around and dress up and go pew pew is 95% of the fun for most of us. (I admit if I only cared about some space game play I would simply stay in EVE and never touch this game.. but I love trek like most of us do and pew pewing in a trek ship is fun)
I think Cryptic could do a better job of teaching some of the games players who have obviously not played a lot of other MMOs at least the basics of this game... so that if those players choose to take there game up a notch and try Advanced or Elite content they can have a better chance of doing well. (which honest will be more fun for them as well... not just people teaming up with them)
"IN GAME DPS METER!!!! (With a single mission we all would run to base it off of)"
....quietly sneaks out....
Would be a great game tool. A simple in game parser that tracked DPS and HPS would go a long way to helping many people. Trying to improve in any game with out metrics is next to impossible.
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed.
The 35k minimum is just the total health of enemies divided by the timer, the team still needs to be aware of what they're supposed to do.
For ISA, that means if a generator is blown, you blow the other generators ASAP and then burn down the transformer. If ISA failed when the party had an average of 8k DPS, then somebody didn't know how to do ISA.
Likewise with BDA, a group of people who each do 50k would still fail if they have no idea what they're doing, and nobody is freeing the Borg.
Think of a potluck.
The DPS requirement is like the amount of food that needs to be at the potluck so that everybody has enough to eat. So everybody should bring X amount of food, or it's not fair and you're mooching off the others. If everybody is a mooch (not bringing enough) then nobody has enough to eat and the potluck was a failure.
The requirement of knowing how to do the STF is like knowing what to bring. Doesn't matter if you bring ten times more food than necessary if you give everybody food poisoning...
And just because your method or build works for you and gets you the stats you find acceptable doesn't mean it's the "right" way or the "only" way, as others have demonstrated in this thread (the kick-TRIBBLE CC Nebula from Hell for instance...nice, thought of trying something similar myself, but I love my Oddy tank too much).
....I'm probably getting my hopes up over nothing here, but pleeeeeeeease tell me you were referring to me with the CC Nebula part of the quote, here...; I could really use a lift about now in life, and would gladly add that to my signature with due credit....
As for the poster with the T5-U Rhode Island(Sci Captain brofist!), keep doing what you're doing!
If everyone would like to, feel free to look at the Chattanooga(my Fleet Nebula) via the STO Gateway, or just look here(For some reason, neither the Gateway nor Skill Planner page properly show my layout[the Gateway shows no buffs on equipment and the BoFF setup is all wrong]; I've made my best guess on the latter, regarding Mk numbers, and a Mk XII VR Inhibiting Secondary Deflector that I made myself occupies the appropriate slot)...: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=chattanoogafebruary2015_0
It's not the most elegant design, nor the most powerful...but it's got all KINDS of exotic/kinetic damage potential(all of my space traits go towards this), can debuff a lot of targets -very- quickly, and easily rein in multiple mobs with little effort, while having more than enough resistance and shield/hull regen to get the job done....
The only way I have thought of this can be fixed is for there to be a mission you have to complete SOLO to gain entry to advanced and elite content
You have to finish this mission to be able to Q up for advanced and elite content
If you change your ship loadout you have to redo the mission the ship not traits batterys doffs or boffs
you should not be able to Q up if damaged or wounded
The mission should be like the content and as hard as the content but done solo
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The game is more often about destroying things and within a certain amount of time. DPS is a measure of damage divided by time, which seems to match up, but even that can be misleading.
I have a Mat'ha raptor with CRF doing X DPS in Y time while running Argala.
I have a Scimitar beam boat with BFAW doing X+(X/2) DPS but it takes Y+(Y/3) time doing Argala.
The ship with lower DPS completes Argala in a much faster time. Not by mere seconds, but consistently much more than a minute faster. The higher DPS ship completes it in much longer time. Measured solely by DPS, the ship with a faster time is worse.
Yes, you need damage output since the baddies must be destroyed. I've completed a randomly joined ISA with a team average of 6.29k DPS. If there had been 2 solid science ships staggering the use of grav wells, warp plasma, and maybe TBR too, it's possible the delaying of the nanite spheres could have enabled the remaining players to destroy the transformers in an even longer amount of time that would push the needed minimum DPS lower. Reading into that, I am saying that it depends on the makeup of the team, the skills of the players, what they bring, their teamwork and how proficient they are that impacts things. Something like multiple players combining fire on spheres, attacking the same shield facing, means it takes less DPS overall to destroy it as little damage output is wasted on other shield facings that can absorb some of that damage.
So, how do you help other players who could easily improve the effectiveness? How about you stick around after the STF fails or is completed and ask the others if they would like help improving their ship builds. You'll get ignored most of the time, but not all the time. If any of them are not in a fleet, maybe you could invite them to your fleet.
Join random STFs with a fleet member. Maybe the fleet member is in need of that improvement advice and working with them will break the ice and open the dialog for help. Maybe the 2 of you will show the other players how easy it is and they might be more open to discussing improvement advice.
Don't just assume that since the advice is out there that the other folks will go find it to improve their builds, point the ones that want to improve in that direction, where to find it, links to certain forum posts, maybe invest more than a few seconds of your time in that endeavor, and you might help make a difference.
I am not a programmer type, but i wonder if something like you suggest could done with the foundry? A mission that is a training program. Use your current ship, have the NPC's explain what will work and wont work. What this weapon type does, etc.
If I could use the foundry, I would spend some time making those, then try to get them shared on the forms and by the powers that be.
I have no clue what my dps is, but I normally get 1st or 2nd in Advanced Crystal Entity, with my Eng Oddy. How can I find out? I don't mind hunting it down if you don't have time. I'm not lazy or anything.
Comments
While the OP infuriated me and apparently others as well (and he has since edited, explained, apologized, etc.), I understand some of the reasons and frustrations behind it. But there are useful and helpful and courteous ways of going about fixing it and I've mentioned them myself (Foundry tutorials, understandable guides, etc.).
Generalizing everyone into a category of being a "terrible player" because they don't have scores to meet your criteria is no different than the claims that, if you do have scores that meet that criteria, you're an arrogant know-it-all jack@$$ that wants to TRIBBLE everyone else's gameplay. We know the bulk of both sides aren't that way. And just because someone's casual or a RPer does not mean they suck.
There are some players that just don't get it. Some of those can be helped. Some can't. Some don't want to. Some take pride in being TRIBBLE$holes and trolls.
Likewise, there are some high-scorers that think that gives them the right to laud it over everyone else's head and expect all others to bend-and-scrape in submission. Some of them don't care that they're also being TRIBBLE$holes. Some take pride in mingling with the "lesser beings" and making their lives miserable (Q-wannabes).
I wonder how many of any of those problem children are really participating in this thread.
As I do not identify with either minority group (I'm not a high-scorer and I'm not an STF troll; I earned/bought what I have without piggybacking other players), I took personal offense at the OP's arrogance in declaring that all not like him should be nerfed, as well as others attempting to validate and agree with his stance. This is no different than a casual saying all high-scorers shouldn't be allowed to <fill in the blank>.
Neither side is right. Get it?
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
If I chose to go into an Advanced or Elite STF with sub-standard gear, yes, I'd expect to get grief. Duh! I'm agreeing with you! But I'm not doing into Advanced or Elite STFs, so do not think you have any more claim to this game than I do to try and nerf my build/ship/gear/playstyle because it doesn't suit you! And this is directed not just to OP...which I think I've already addressed directly...but to those in this thread that just don't get it.
The noobs that you're wanting to get rid of are quite probably not aware of this thread or this issue at all and, therefore, won't get your hate message that is, instead, flung at those that are innocent of the "crime" and are simply acting in outrage to your apparent arrogance that has been prominently displayed.
Likewise, if you high-scorers drop down in difficulty to easier content and find that other players don't live up to your standards, remember where you are.
You stay on your side of the tracks and we'll stay on our side.
That being said, to deal with those, again, that just don't get it and insist on griefing and trolling, there are ways to fix the problem that Cryptic already designed into the game. Private queues, fleets, closed teams...all acceptable ways to shut out undesirables on both ends. I doubt Cryptic will design any kind of more complicated rating system since they have enough problems fielding content as it is.
While you can see fit to state helpful ideas and counsel other "lesser" players on how to be more to your standard, guess what? You can also take our counsel that there are ways to avoid those that insist on griefing your STFs.
If you can't take our advice, how can you expect us to take yours?
Just to be perfectly clear I added the edit to the OP, cause yes it was hot headed. Most of what I said however is 100% true.
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
I am not being elitist... I am simply aware of the design of the mission... as is everyone else reading this if there honest. Each STF has X number of NPCs that must die (it never ever changes in infected for instance) They have Y number of Hull HP. As a team you need to remove that combined number of NPC Hit points in the time given. That means there is 100% FACT a hard cut off point where if your team doesn't have X DPS you will fail its only a matter of time. As for the moving Fail line... yes you don't have to DPS them down in the window of time it takes them to get to the point where you auto fail... you CAN choose to control them and that is perfectly fine.
Those are just the Facts of the STF missions... I'm not the one that designed the stupid things... but I am smart enough to see how they work. So yes I say people playing the Advanced or Elite versions of those missions (public que or not) should take the time to build ships that are capable of pulling there own weight. (I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I did rage yesterday no doubt... I failed 2 in a row, and thinking back I may have in fact had an a few actual trolls in the mission with me. In which case this entire thread like has them nice and frothy.
Overall as most people have agreed on in the thread after all these pages... some education is likely the best semi-fix. Cryptic really needs to do a better job of teaching players the basics of the game. This game is far to easy to get to 60+ and still really not have a good handle on the basics.
I'd like to point out that we actually do regularly get these threads in various forms.
Complaints about DPSers skewing the metrics, complaints that Cryptic made things DPS centric, complaints that their special snowflakes are no longer viable. If someone asks about what they're doing they always get defensive, that their actual build and gear and tactics shouldn't matter, it should be viable anyway. They pretty much always boil down to "I don't want to learn the game mechanics, the Advanced should be easy enough that I can do whatever I want and still beat it".
I tell people this over and over. If you do 8k DPS on average as a team, you won't set any records but you will win - so long as NPC X doesn't do Y as in heal a generator or get through a hoop.
There are some nasty surprises going from normal to advanced though that a first time runner will face. Vortex for example. That little shere that pops in normal when you kill 2 generators... easy enough. That cube on Advanced, when not ready for it, not so easy. Then there is Raptor hell in Cure. :eek:
Considering the video linked earlier in this thread as an example (yes, I actually watched it...mostly a cluster@#$% but I got the basics) and a couple of responses to it, you're not 100% true. (This isn't my first rodeo, I just don't see the need to post my "resum
Na if one person woke up and realized that yes the STFs and in general 99% of the games qued PvE missions are in fact just DPS clocks... then mission accomplished.
As I have said the Borg stfs all have one Moving timer... that can be Crowd Controled. Of course some Debuffing is also viable to help the entire team, DO MORE DPS.
I'm sure you do just fine... in my xp in general people that take the time to be on the forums. In general at least take some time to build proper ships and try to be effective. I'm sure you do just fine. The min passing grade for the advanced modes isn't exactly high... for Elite is a bit higher. Still if you que for it I am willing to bet your at least pulling your min... as I have said more then a few times I can't understand how people can't be. (yet so many seem to be) in the end it has to be basics that are missed. I mean if you take a rainbow build with white mk x dmg consoles and understand power and weapon range mechanics you should still be able to pull 7-8k.
Anyway ya... no more point going back and forth on this.
Wow.... is it hard being all the way up there, alone? Is the thin air getting you lightheaded?
Last I knew, this was a game for everyone, not just you. Perhaps you'd be better off playing a console game or something...
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
Not the best build but I did get 15k in ISA with it on a very bad run.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sharrthienkdf_0
The missing console is the constriction anchor.
This! I am in the same zone. I have lots of alts and I like to fly fun builds, a mine boat with pattern Alpha, does anybody do that. Don't be afraid, I won't come to your advanced or elite queu.
Nevertheless Cryptic should revamp things here. Cut the high DPS and lower the HP of NPC. Remember, a high DPS built is also an exotic build, a niche thing. Cap crit percentage at 10%. A crit should be a very rare and extreme hit. You should not see it often.
What is the point of having all kinds of ship gear and have all kinds of options to outfit your ship, while most of it is useless and does not work.
10K is enough for advanced content if you understand the missions, which i'm guessing you do.
I don't think anyone is saying that everyone has to get 50K+ now. It's the people doing less than 7k and showing up in advanced and elite queues. People can be casual gamers and get 8K dps.
Something like this would help players and help STO. I just wish we could get them to stop nerfing everything and pay attention to items like this from time to time.
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
This is my problem, I need to do conduit on advanced with my Kling toon for the bnp's and can't do it without spending a lot of ec for gear I don't want. I have this 10k dps toon and really no need to do any stf's since she had all rep and have done all story missions
the alts are no where geared for what I need to do stf's but since I don't want them with the anti-pton dps build I need rep stuff so right now I am kinda stuck
Infected Conduit can fail if a sphere gets through and Borg Disconnected is about rescuing the Borg not blowing up the enemies. You could have one meelion DPS and still fail IC if someone popped a generator on the side you weren't on and a sphere got into healing range.
I'll bring up my board game analogy again.
Just like forum posters people in games can sometimes forget there playing with actual people. (and yes that is a dig at myself)
If we where to sit down and play a game of monopoly together... we can sit down and have a good time. However we would have to follow the rules.
I'm not going to sit down and say ok I'm the thimble and my thimble goes counter clockwise round the board cause I want to. My point is if your going to play a game with another person you can have lots of fun and a great time, while following the rules. Sitting down to play with someone and ignoring the rules is ignorant and rude.
The STFs are one of the few standard MMO mechanic things in the game. Meaning that yes they have rules, they are designed for teams, and they can be lost. While my initial words where harsh... I don't think anyone in this thread is saying people should take off an never come back. We are saying if your going to sit down and play a game with me, at least take the time to read the rules first. Understand what you are jumping into, and bring something capable of at least possibly having success. If you are bringing ships with less then 7-8k DPS into advanced versions of those missions you are setting your team up to fail.
The idea I proposed in the OP isn't realistic no... some training missions would be very realistic though. Its not about forcing people to play as I like... or even as Cryptic likes. (they make the STF rules not I). Its about teaching people the rules of the game... so they can have more fun.
Not what I'm talking about. In most MMOs though there are "standard" best practice things that people do in general so everyone is on the same page every run. In this game long ago someone decided left was the best way to go. (so that there wasn't any confusion) If you want to start an infected run and say in team chat "lets all go right first to do something different" go for it. lol
As we have pointed out in this thread more then a few times... Cryptic does a terrible job of letting people know what they should be bringing to the Advanced / Elite STFs. They made mention of Elite not being for everyone in there dev blog about the overhaul... they for sure don't do that in the game though.
Its been pointed out a 100 times in this thread now by this point. The rules aren't written no but they are very clear. Your team requires X DPS to complete a STF. In the case of Infected advanced that's around 35k DPS total between 5 people. So by bringing less then 7k DPS to that mission you are setting 4 other people up to fail.
In the end the overhaul of the STFs has pointed out one major issue with STO imo.
That is Cryptics lack of training in this game. Don't get me wrong I understand this is a Trek RP lovers dream game... and letting us run around and dress up and go pew pew is 95% of the fun for most of us. (I admit if I only cared about some space game play I would simply stay in EVE and never touch this game.. but I love trek like most of us do and pew pewing in a trek ship is fun)
I think Cryptic could do a better job of teaching some of the games players who have obviously not played a lot of other MMOs at least the basics of this game... so that if those players choose to take there game up a notch and try Advanced or Elite content they can have a better chance of doing well. (which honest will be more fun for them as well... not just people teaming up with them)
"IN GAME DPS METER!!!! (With a single mission we all would run to base it off of)"
....quietly sneaks out....
Would be a great game tool. A simple in game parser that tracked DPS and HPS would go a long way to helping many people. Trying to improve in any game with out metrics is next to impossible.
Join a group of people who feel the same way you do and STOP doing pugs then..
common sense is not so common
The 35k minimum is just the total health of enemies divided by the timer, the team still needs to be aware of what they're supposed to do.
For ISA, that means if a generator is blown, you blow the other generators ASAP and then burn down the transformer. If ISA failed when the party had an average of 8k DPS, then somebody didn't know how to do ISA.
Likewise with BDA, a group of people who each do 50k would still fail if they have no idea what they're doing, and nobody is freeing the Borg.
Think of a potluck.
The DPS requirement is like the amount of food that needs to be at the potluck so that everybody has enough to eat. So everybody should bring X amount of food, or it's not fair and you're mooching off the others. If everybody is a mooch (not bringing enough) then nobody has enough to eat and the potluck was a failure.
The requirement of knowing how to do the STF is like knowing what to bring. Doesn't matter if you bring ten times more food than necessary if you give everybody food poisoning...
....I'm probably getting my hopes up over nothing here, but pleeeeeeeease tell me you were referring to me with the CC Nebula part of the quote, here...; I could really use a lift about now in life, and would gladly add that to my signature with due credit....
As for the poster with the T5-U Rhode Island(Sci Captain brofist!), keep doing what you're doing!
If everyone would like to, feel free to look at the Chattanooga(my Fleet Nebula) via the STO Gateway, or just look here(For some reason, neither the Gateway nor Skill Planner page properly show my layout[the Gateway shows no buffs on equipment and the BoFF setup is all wrong]; I've made my best guess on the latter, regarding Mk numbers, and a Mk XII VR Inhibiting Secondary Deflector that I made myself occupies the appropriate slot)...: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=chattanoogafebruary2015_0
It's not the most elegant design, nor the most powerful...but it's got all KINDS of exotic/kinetic damage potential(all of my space traits go towards this), can debuff a lot of targets -very- quickly, and easily rein in multiple mobs with little effort, while having more than enough resistance and shield/hull regen to get the job done....
You have to finish this mission to be able to Q up for advanced and elite content
If you change your ship loadout you have to redo the mission the ship not traits batterys doffs or boffs
you should not be able to Q up if damaged or wounded
The mission should be like the content and as hard as the content but done solo
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I have a Mat'ha raptor with CRF doing X DPS in Y time while running Argala.
I have a Scimitar beam boat with BFAW doing X+(X/2) DPS but it takes Y+(Y/3) time doing Argala.
The ship with lower DPS completes Argala in a much faster time. Not by mere seconds, but consistently much more than a minute faster. The higher DPS ship completes it in much longer time. Measured solely by DPS, the ship with a faster time is worse.
Yes, you need damage output since the baddies must be destroyed. I've completed a randomly joined ISA with a team average of 6.29k DPS. If there had been 2 solid science ships staggering the use of grav wells, warp plasma, and maybe TBR too, it's possible the delaying of the nanite spheres could have enabled the remaining players to destroy the transformers in an even longer amount of time that would push the needed minimum DPS lower. Reading into that, I am saying that it depends on the makeup of the team, the skills of the players, what they bring, their teamwork and how proficient they are that impacts things. Something like multiple players combining fire on spheres, attacking the same shield facing, means it takes less DPS overall to destroy it as little damage output is wasted on other shield facings that can absorb some of that damage.
So, how do you help other players who could easily improve the effectiveness? How about you stick around after the STF fails or is completed and ask the others if they would like help improving their ship builds. You'll get ignored most of the time, but not all the time. If any of them are not in a fleet, maybe you could invite them to your fleet.
Join random STFs with a fleet member. Maybe the fleet member is in need of that improvement advice and working with them will break the ice and open the dialog for help. Maybe the 2 of you will show the other players how easy it is and they might be more open to discussing improvement advice.
Don't just assume that since the advice is out there that the other folks will go find it to improve their builds, point the ones that want to improve in that direction, where to find it, links to certain forum posts, maybe invest more than a few seconds of your time in that endeavor, and you might help make a difference.
I like this idea.
Wait...what? Why?