So then, in looking at STO now...all the dead public queues while the private queues are thriving...
STO has become the most anti-social game I've ever played with all the focus on single-player activities or small cliques.
Yeah, for people that don't know that public or private STF/DPS channels exist game looks completely dead. You can only ever count under 100 players in all those queues combined, except when there's an event.
Also, Cryptic stopped releasing Fleet Holdings, which actually were a great social component in the game.
My fleet finished with all upgrades forever ago and fleet cohesion is at all time low. We actually have even branches of main fleet and members don't even communicate on Fleet channel, but on private one.
So to a new player in game and invited to Fleet, fleet seems dead even if there are many people online, PvE queues seem completely dead, and PvP queue i shouldn't even mention.
This is a problem for Cryptic. A big one.
Like many mmo's elite instances/dungeons are catered towards tweaking your build/gear to the 99% optimal. (with an emphasis on gear more often than not)
The variable in which they differ is how impossible it is for an undergeared toon to succeed and what are his options.
It does not make one good or bad at this game to have gear issues.
The thing is, imho, that the potential so far exceeds what is required - that pointing to gear issues is a wee bit odd...
A typical MMO, in my experience, typically has some form of progression that's taking place.
You level up, doing missions, to get gear so you can run that Dungeon A. You run Dungeon A to get the gear so you can run Dungeon B. You run Dungeon B to get the gear so you can run Dungeon C. You run Dungeon C to get the gear so you hit up that first Raid...etc, etc, etc.
With STO, you level up, doing missions, to get gear so you can run that Dungeon A. There is no Dungeon B or C, there is no Raid. It's just Dungeon A. There's all sorts of gear upgrades available to you that would have taken you several expansions in another MMO...while you're still running that Dungeon A. With STO...it's just a treadmill to nowhere, were you upgrade your gear to run that treadmill to nowhere faster.
People aren't doing 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k and beyond because there is any content that requires them to do it...they're doing it because the content is so woefully easy compared to the gearing that is available.
Cryptic tells us this with a big ol' neon sign. Obviously the gear is not required to do the content if the gear is a reward from doing the content.
I agree - i've stated in another thread that progression is out of whack for the gear/ships and needs fixing. Linear progression works best as you've stated.
Go to dungeon A -> work towards surviving and succeeding in Dungeon B.
Yes STO also lacks the factor of actually having A -> B -> C -> so on as opposed to just A.
Though i can't see how the potential is more than required... that would make heinous builds doable in elites by just having such good gear that you have to make an effort to die.
Playing with people who do under 10k DPS makes me feel dirty - I even have to have a brain wash after interacting with such people - and, oh gawd! the SMELL , It makes me feel sick!
Playing with people who do under 10k DPS makes me feel dirty - I even have to have a brain wash after interacting with such people - and, oh gawd! the SMELL , It makes me feel sick!
Somebody just ought to burn these Ne'er-do-wells who pull us all down!
OMG! The OP just admitted to being wrong! :eek: A certain under-world must have frozen over recently!
Actually, I've seen him do so on more than one occasion. It's called 'being honorable.' Which is why I respect him, as a poster, and read his stuff.
On-Topic: Part of the problem is that Cryptic ties certain rewards to Advanced/Elite only. That is entirely reasonable, from a game-design perspective. Unfortunately, human nature simply being what it is, it also means people will join these queues, even when those be clearly above their level. There's no easy way around that, as making every award available at lower levels too may sound fair, but makes no sense again from a game-design perspective.
Actually, I've seen him do so on more than one occasion. It's called 'being honorable.' Which is why I respect him, as a poster, and read his stuff.
On-Topic: Part of the problem is that Cryptic ties certain rewards to Advanced/Elite only. That is entirely reasonable, from a game-design perspective. Unfortunately, human nature simply being what it is, it also means people will join these queues, even when those be clearly above their level. There's no easy way around that, as making every award available at lower levels too may sound fair, but makes no sense again from a game-design perspective.
Which in turn gets into the problem of making the rewards available at a lower level and then providing more rewards at a higher level...and you'll end up with some folks trying to get more rewards before they're ready...
But imho, you don't not do that because some folks will still do that...call me naive, but I believe a bunch of the folks would actually just be happy to earn the rewards at their level - so in helping them do that, you'd help them and help others, yeah?
Which is one of the reasons I was disappointed with Charles' post about rewards...imho...they need to work from the bottom up, not start in the middle and cut some folks off.
Excuse me for not posting this 'til now. It was intended to be posted last night (wee hours), but I do actually sleep sometimes.
While the OP infuriated me and apparently others as well (and he has since edited, explained, apologized, etc.), I understand some of the reasons and frustrations behind it. But there are useful and helpful and courteous ways of going about fixing it and I've mentioned them myself (Foundry tutorials, understandable guides, etc.).
Generalizing everyone into a category of being a "terrible player" because they don't have scores to meet your criteria is no different than the claims that, if you do have scores that meet that criteria, you're an arrogant know-it-all jack@$$ that wants to TRIBBLE everyone else's gameplay. We know the bulk of both sides aren't that way. And just because someone's casual or a RPer does not mean they suck.
There are some players that just don't get it. Some of those can be helped. Some can't. Some don't want to. Some take pride in being TRIBBLE$holes and trolls.
Likewise, there are some high-scorers that think that gives them the right to laud it over everyone else's head and expect all others to bend-and-scrape in submission. Some of them don't care that they're also being TRIBBLE$holes. Some take pride in mingling with the "lesser beings" and making their lives miserable (Q-wannabes).
I wonder how many of any of those problem children are really participating in this thread.
As I do not identify with either minority group (I'm not a high-scorer and I'm not an STF troll; I earned/bought what I have without piggybacking other players), I took personal offense at the OP's arrogance in declaring that all not like him should be nerfed, as well as others attempting to validate and agree with his stance. This is no different than a casual saying all high-scorers shouldn't be allowed to <fill in the blank>.
Neither side is right. Get it?
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
If I chose to go into an Advanced or Elite STF with sub-standard gear, yes, I'd expect to get grief. Duh! I'm agreeing with you! But I'm not doing into Advanced or Elite STFs, so do not think you have any more claim to this game than I do to try and nerf my build/ship/gear/playstyle because it doesn't suit you! And this is directed not just to OP...which I think I've already addressed directly...but to those in this thread that just don't get it.
The noobs that you're wanting to get rid of are quite probably not aware of this thread or this issue at all and, therefore, won't get your hate message that is, instead, flung at those that are innocent of the "crime" and are simply acting in outrage to your apparent arrogance that has been prominently displayed.
Likewise, if you high-scorers drop down in difficulty to easier content and find that other players don't live up to your standards, remember where you are.
You stay on your side of the tracks and we'll stay on our side.
That being said, to deal with those, again, that just don't get it and insist on griefing and trolling, there are ways to fix the problem that Cryptic already designed into the game. Private queues, fleets, closed teams...all acceptable ways to shut out undesirables on both ends. I doubt Cryptic will design any kind of more complicated rating system since they have enough problems fielding content as it is.
While you can see fit to state helpful ideas and counsel other "lesser" players on how to be more to your standard, guess what? You can also take our counsel that there are ways to avoid those that insist on griefing your STFs.
If you can't take our advice, how can you expect us to take yours?
Just to be perfectly clear I added the edit to the OP, cause yes it was hot headed. Most of what I said however is 100% true.
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
I am not being elitist... I am simply aware of the design of the mission... as is everyone else reading this if there honest. Each STF has X number of NPCs that must die (it never ever changes in infected for instance) They have Y number of Hull HP. As a team you need to remove that combined number of NPC Hit points in the time given. That means there is 100% FACT a hard cut off point where if your team doesn't have X DPS you will fail its only a matter of time. As for the moving Fail line... yes you don't have to DPS them down in the window of time it takes them to get to the point where you auto fail... you CAN choose to control them and that is perfectly fine.
Those are just the Facts of the STF missions... I'm not the one that designed the stupid things... but I am smart enough to see how they work. So yes I say people playing the Advanced or Elite versions of those missions (public que or not) should take the time to build ships that are capable of pulling there own weight. (I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I did rage yesterday no doubt... I failed 2 in a row, and thinking back I may have in fact had an a few actual trolls in the mission with me. In which case this entire thread like has them nice and frothy.
Overall as most people have agreed on in the thread after all these pages... some education is likely the best semi-fix. Cryptic really needs to do a better job of teaching players the basics of the game. This game is far to easy to get to 60+ and still really not have a good handle on the basics.
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
I'd like to point out that we actually do regularly get these threads in various forms.
Complaints about DPSers skewing the metrics, complaints that Cryptic made things DPS centric, complaints that their special snowflakes are no longer viable. If someone asks about what they're doing they always get defensive, that their actual build and gear and tactics shouldn't matter, it should be viable anyway. They pretty much always boil down to "I don't want to learn the game mechanics, the Advanced should be easy enough that I can do whatever I want and still beat it".
(I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I tell people this over and over. If you do 8k DPS on average as a team, you won't set any records but you will win - so long as NPC X doesn't do Y as in heal a generator or get through a hoop.
There are some nasty surprises going from normal to advanced though that a first time runner will face. Vortex for example. That little shere that pops in normal when you kill 2 generators... easy enough. That cube on Advanced, when not ready for it, not so easy. Then there is Raptor hell in Cure. :eek:
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
Considering the video linked earlier in this thread as an example (yes, I actually watched it...mostly a cluster@#$% but I got the basics) and a couple of responses to it, you're not 100% true. (This isn't my first rodeo, I just don't see the need to post my "resum
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The fact that the trolls you despise so much are probably unaware of this thread and are likely at this very moment going about their daily trolling despite your wailing and gnashing of teeth makes me LOL and shows how pointless this whole damned thread was to begin with.
Na if one person woke up and realized that yes the STFs and in general 99% of the games qued PvE missions are in fact just DPS clocks... then mission accomplished.
As I have said the Borg stfs all have one Moving timer... that can be Crowd Controled. Of course some Debuffing is also viable to help the entire team, DO MORE DPS.
I'm sure you do just fine... in my xp in general people that take the time to be on the forums. In general at least take some time to build proper ships and try to be effective. I'm sure you do just fine. The min passing grade for the advanced modes isn't exactly high... for Elite is a bit higher. Still if you que for it I am willing to bet your at least pulling your min... as I have said more then a few times I can't understand how people can't be. (yet so many seem to be) in the end it has to be basics that are missed. I mean if you take a rainbow build with white mk x dmg consoles and understand power and weapon range mechanics you should still be able to pull 7-8k.
Anyway ya... no more point going back and forth on this.
Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
EDIT:
I won't go and change my initial some what flippant OP. I will simply edit this as some have suggested to say. Yes I was a bit of a jerk in the above. I still feel I had a point... we have had some good conversation over 20+ pages now. Before you respond with a Die in a fire OP... read though at least some of the conversation. Some good ideas to help with ALL our our que issues have come up in the following pages. Thanks.
Wow.... is it hard being all the way up there, alone? Is the thin air getting you lightheaded?
Last I knew, this was a game for everyone, not just you. Perhaps you'd be better off playing a console game or something...
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
This! I am in the same zone. I have lots of alts and I like to fly fun builds, a mine boat with pattern Alpha, does anybody do that. Don't be afraid, I won't come to your advanced or elite queu.
Nevertheless Cryptic should revamp things here. Cut the high DPS and lower the HP of NPC. Remember, a high DPS built is also an exotic build, a niche thing. Cap crit percentage at 10%. A crit should be a very rare and extreme hit. You should not see it often.
What is the point of having all kinds of ship gear and have all kinds of options to outfit your ship, while most of it is useless and does not work.
I have only been playing since right before free to play, this is only the second online game I have really played. I play these games as something fun to do with my husband and so far I have really enjoyed STO I team sometimes with fleet members and sometimes I play by myself and sometimes I don't play at all for months.
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
10K is enough for advanced content if you understand the missions, which i'm guessing you do.
I don't think anyone is saying that everyone has to get 50K+ now. It's the people doing less than 7k and showing up in advanced and elite queues. People can be casual gamers and get 8K dps.
In-game DPS combatlog reader for the player's eyes only. I'll keep saying it until they do it. Cryptic made STO all about DPS to the deficit of the game. The least they can do is give new or uniformed players some way to gauge their combat effectiveness.
Something like this would help players and help STO. I just wish we could get them to stop nerfing everything and pay attention to items like this from time to time.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
This is my problem, I need to do conduit on advanced with my Kling toon for the bnp's and can't do it without spending a lot of ec for gear I don't want. I have this 10k dps toon and really no need to do any stf's since she had all rep and have done all story missions
the alts are no where geared for what I need to do stf's but since I don't want them with the anti-pton dps build I need rep stuff so right now I am kinda stuck
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
Infected Conduit can fail if a sphere gets through and Borg Disconnected is about rescuing the Borg not blowing up the enemies. You could have one meelion DPS and still fail IC if someone popped a generator on the side you weren't on and a sphere got into healing range.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
And this post perfetly sums up the STO Forums...a gethering place of crazed lunatics and sociopaths....If I ever quit STO, it will be because of the TRIBBLE posted here!
And this post perfetly sums up the STO Forums...a gethering place of crazed lunatics and sociopaths....If I ever quit STO, it will be because of the TRIBBLE posted here!
I'll bring up my board game analogy again.
Just like forum posters people in games can sometimes forget there playing with actual people. (and yes that is a dig at myself)
If we where to sit down and play a game of monopoly together... we can sit down and have a good time. However we would have to follow the rules.
I'm not going to sit down and say ok I'm the thimble and my thimble goes counter clockwise round the board cause I want to. My point is if your going to play a game with another person you can have lots of fun and a great time, while following the rules. Sitting down to play with someone and ignoring the rules is ignorant and rude.
The STFs are one of the few standard MMO mechanic things in the game. Meaning that yes they have rules, they are designed for teams, and they can be lost. While my initial words where harsh... I don't think anyone in this thread is saying people should take off an never come back. We are saying if your going to sit down and play a game with me, at least take the time to read the rules first. Understand what you are jumping into, and bring something capable of at least possibly having success. If you are bringing ships with less then 7-8k DPS into advanced versions of those missions you are setting your team up to fail.
The idea I proposed in the OP isn't realistic no... some training missions would be very realistic though. Its not about forcing people to play as I like... or even as Cryptic likes. (they make the STF rules not I). Its about teaching people the rules of the game... so they can have more fun.
Where in the rules does it say you have to go left instead of right for ISA?
Not what I'm talking about. In most MMOs though there are "standard" best practice things that people do in general so everyone is on the same page every run. In this game long ago someone decided left was the best way to go. (so that there wasn't any confusion) If you want to start an infected run and say in team chat "lets all go right first to do something different" go for it. lol
As we have pointed out in this thread more then a few times... Cryptic does a terrible job of letting people know what they should be bringing to the Advanced / Elite STFs. They made mention of Elite not being for everyone in there dev blog about the overhaul... they for sure don't do that in the game though.
Its been pointed out a 100 times in this thread now by this point. The rules aren't written no but they are very clear. Your team requires X DPS to complete a STF. In the case of Infected advanced that's around 35k DPS total between 5 people. So by bringing less then 7k DPS to that mission you are setting 4 other people up to fail.
In the end the overhaul of the STFs has pointed out one major issue with STO imo.
That is Cryptics lack of training in this game. Don't get me wrong I understand this is a Trek RP lovers dream game... and letting us run around and dress up and go pew pew is 95% of the fun for most of us. (I admit if I only cared about some space game play I would simply stay in EVE and never touch this game.. but I love trek like most of us do and pew pewing in a trek ship is fun)
I think Cryptic could do a better job of teaching some of the games players who have obviously not played a lot of other MMOs at least the basics of this game... so that if those players choose to take there game up a notch and try Advanced or Elite content they can have a better chance of doing well. (which honest will be more fun for them as well... not just people teaming up with them)
Comments
Yeah, for people that don't know that public or private STF/DPS channels exist game looks completely dead. You can only ever count under 100 players in all those queues combined, except when there's an event.
Also, Cryptic stopped releasing Fleet Holdings, which actually were a great social component in the game.
My fleet finished with all upgrades forever ago and fleet cohesion is at all time low. We actually have even branches of main fleet and members don't even communicate on Fleet channel, but on private one.
So to a new player in game and invited to Fleet, fleet seems dead even if there are many people online, PvE queues seem completely dead, and PvP queue i shouldn't even mention.
This is a problem for Cryptic. A big one.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
You can be uncorruptible and become a politician but you cannot remain both uncorruptible and a politician.
The thing is, imho, that the potential so far exceeds what is required - that pointing to gear issues is a wee bit odd...
A typical MMO, in my experience, typically has some form of progression that's taking place.
You level up, doing missions, to get gear so you can run that Dungeon A. You run Dungeon A to get the gear so you can run Dungeon B. You run Dungeon B to get the gear so you can run Dungeon C. You run Dungeon C to get the gear so you hit up that first Raid...etc, etc, etc.
With STO, you level up, doing missions, to get gear so you can run that Dungeon A. There is no Dungeon B or C, there is no Raid. It's just Dungeon A. There's all sorts of gear upgrades available to you that would have taken you several expansions in another MMO...while you're still running that Dungeon A. With STO...it's just a treadmill to nowhere, were you upgrade your gear to run that treadmill to nowhere faster.
People aren't doing 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k and beyond because there is any content that requires them to do it...they're doing it because the content is so woefully easy compared to the gearing that is available.
Cryptic tells us this with a big ol' neon sign. Obviously the gear is not required to do the content if the gear is a reward from doing the content.
Go to dungeon A -> work towards surviving and succeeding in Dungeon B.
Yes STO also lacks the factor of actually having A -> B -> C -> so on as opposed to just A.
Though i can't see how the potential is more than required... that would make heinous builds doable in elites by just having such good gear that you have to make an effort to die.
Somebody just ought to burn these Ne'er-do-wells who pull us all down!
I vote for compulsory re-education!
Actually, I've seen him do so on more than one occasion. It's called 'being honorable.' Which is why I respect him, as a poster, and read his stuff.
On-Topic: Part of the problem is that Cryptic ties certain rewards to Advanced/Elite only. That is entirely reasonable, from a game-design perspective. Unfortunately, human nature simply being what it is, it also means people will join these queues, even when those be clearly above their level. There's no easy way around that, as making every award available at lower levels too may sound fair, but makes no sense again from a game-design perspective.
Which in turn gets into the problem of making the rewards available at a lower level and then providing more rewards at a higher level...and you'll end up with some folks trying to get more rewards before they're ready...
But imho, you don't not do that because some folks will still do that...call me naive, but I believe a bunch of the folks would actually just be happy to earn the rewards at their level - so in helping them do that, you'd help them and help others, yeah?
Which is one of the reasons I was disappointed with Charles' post about rewards...imho...they need to work from the bottom up, not start in the middle and cut some folks off.
While the OP infuriated me and apparently others as well (and he has since edited, explained, apologized, etc.), I understand some of the reasons and frustrations behind it. But there are useful and helpful and courteous ways of going about fixing it and I've mentioned them myself (Foundry tutorials, understandable guides, etc.).
Generalizing everyone into a category of being a "terrible player" because they don't have scores to meet your criteria is no different than the claims that, if you do have scores that meet that criteria, you're an arrogant know-it-all jack@$$ that wants to TRIBBLE everyone else's gameplay. We know the bulk of both sides aren't that way. And just because someone's casual or a RPer does not mean they suck.
There are some players that just don't get it. Some of those can be helped. Some can't. Some don't want to. Some take pride in being TRIBBLE$holes and trolls.
Likewise, there are some high-scorers that think that gives them the right to laud it over everyone else's head and expect all others to bend-and-scrape in submission. Some of them don't care that they're also being TRIBBLE$holes. Some take pride in mingling with the "lesser beings" and making their lives miserable (Q-wannabes).
I wonder how many of any of those problem children are really participating in this thread.
As I do not identify with either minority group (I'm not a high-scorer and I'm not an STF troll; I earned/bought what I have without piggybacking other players), I took personal offense at the OP's arrogance in declaring that all not like him should be nerfed, as well as others attempting to validate and agree with his stance. This is no different than a casual saying all high-scorers shouldn't be allowed to <fill in the blank>.
Neither side is right. Get it?
If I had started a similar thread but polar opposite of this one, stating that the Advanced/Elite Borg STFs are too hard and, therefore, all content needs to be nerfed because it's not a cakewalk for my stock Sovereign with 4 aft white Mk IX phaser/disruptor/polaron/tetryon turrets, 4 fore white Mk IX plasma torpedoes (ooh, green fire!!!), stock white Mk VIII deflector/engine/core/shield, no consoles, and manned by my BOffs untrained since I was a LT (yes, intentionally stupid and exaggerated to make the point), you'd be PI$$ED.
If I chose to go into an Advanced or Elite STF with sub-standard gear, yes, I'd expect to get grief. Duh! I'm agreeing with you! But I'm not doing into Advanced or Elite STFs, so do not think you have any more claim to this game than I do to try and nerf my build/ship/gear/playstyle because it doesn't suit you! And this is directed not just to OP...which I think I've already addressed directly...but to those in this thread that just don't get it.
The noobs that you're wanting to get rid of are quite probably not aware of this thread or this issue at all and, therefore, won't get your hate message that is, instead, flung at those that are innocent of the "crime" and are simply acting in outrage to your apparent arrogance that has been prominently displayed.
Likewise, if you high-scorers drop down in difficulty to easier content and find that other players don't live up to your standards, remember where you are.
You stay on your side of the tracks and we'll stay on our side.
That being said, to deal with those, again, that just don't get it and insist on griefing and trolling, there are ways to fix the problem that Cryptic already designed into the game. Private queues, fleets, closed teams...all acceptable ways to shut out undesirables on both ends. I doubt Cryptic will design any kind of more complicated rating system since they have enough problems fielding content as it is.
While you can see fit to state helpful ideas and counsel other "lesser" players on how to be more to your standard, guess what? You can also take our counsel that there are ways to avoid those that insist on griefing your STFs.
If you can't take our advice, how can you expect us to take yours?
Just to be perfectly clear I added the edit to the OP, cause yes it was hot headed. Most of what I said however is 100% true.
STF content is about DPS and DPS only... nothing else maters... and if your trying to do something else your almost always doing it wrong.
I say almost always cause yes there is in every mission one moving timer. (Spheres in Infected / Bops in Cure... Probes In Kit ect) Sure some control for those guys is nice to have... still if you bring 10% more DPS then is needed for that mission as a team you have zero need for it.
So for the most part I do stand by what I said in an insensitive way in the OP.
If you have put your ship together with out DPS and how you a re going to apply it as the first thought... yes according to CRYPTIC your not doing it right.
I am not being elitist... I am simply aware of the design of the mission... as is everyone else reading this if there honest. Each STF has X number of NPCs that must die (it never ever changes in infected for instance) They have Y number of Hull HP. As a team you need to remove that combined number of NPC Hit points in the time given. That means there is 100% FACT a hard cut off point where if your team doesn't have X DPS you will fail its only a matter of time. As for the moving Fail line... yes you don't have to DPS them down in the window of time it takes them to get to the point where you auto fail... you CAN choose to control them and that is perfectly fine.
Those are just the Facts of the STF missions... I'm not the one that designed the stupid things... but I am smart enough to see how they work. So yes I say people playing the Advanced or Elite versions of those missions (public que or not) should take the time to build ships that are capable of pulling there own weight. (I believe someone earlier said Advanced Infrected required a total of 35k total DPS as a team... so that would mean on average people queing up for that should be able to do 7k at least if they want to pull there weight... if you can double that to be honest its hard to fail unless you have a lot of really clueless people with you. lol)
I did rage yesterday no doubt... I failed 2 in a row, and thinking back I may have in fact had an a few actual trolls in the mission with me. In which case this entire thread like has them nice and frothy.
Overall as most people have agreed on in the thread after all these pages... some education is likely the best semi-fix. Cryptic really needs to do a better job of teaching players the basics of the game. This game is far to easy to get to 60+ and still really not have a good handle on the basics.
I'd like to point out that we actually do regularly get these threads in various forms.
Complaints about DPSers skewing the metrics, complaints that Cryptic made things DPS centric, complaints that their special snowflakes are no longer viable. If someone asks about what they're doing they always get defensive, that their actual build and gear and tactics shouldn't matter, it should be viable anyway. They pretty much always boil down to "I don't want to learn the game mechanics, the Advanced should be easy enough that I can do whatever I want and still beat it".
I tell people this over and over. If you do 8k DPS on average as a team, you won't set any records but you will win - so long as NPC X doesn't do Y as in heal a generator or get through a hoop.
There are some nasty surprises going from normal to advanced though that a first time runner will face. Vortex for example. That little shere that pops in normal when you kill 2 generators... easy enough. That cube on Advanced, when not ready for it, not so easy. Then there is Raptor hell in Cure. :eek:
Considering the video linked earlier in this thread as an example (yes, I actually watched it...mostly a cluster@#$% but I got the basics) and a couple of responses to it, you're not 100% true. (This isn't my first rodeo, I just don't see the need to post my "resum
Na if one person woke up and realized that yes the STFs and in general 99% of the games qued PvE missions are in fact just DPS clocks... then mission accomplished.
As I have said the Borg stfs all have one Moving timer... that can be Crowd Controled. Of course some Debuffing is also viable to help the entire team, DO MORE DPS.
I'm sure you do just fine... in my xp in general people that take the time to be on the forums. In general at least take some time to build proper ships and try to be effective. I'm sure you do just fine. The min passing grade for the advanced modes isn't exactly high... for Elite is a bit higher. Still if you que for it I am willing to bet your at least pulling your min... as I have said more then a few times I can't understand how people can't be. (yet so many seem to be) in the end it has to be basics that are missed. I mean if you take a rainbow build with white mk x dmg consoles and understand power and weapon range mechanics you should still be able to pull 7-8k.
Anyway ya... no more point going back and forth on this.
Wow.... is it hard being all the way up there, alone? Is the thin air getting you lightheaded?
Last I knew, this was a game for everyone, not just you. Perhaps you'd be better off playing a console game or something...
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
I have a full time job plus being a wife and a mother so with that said I look at this like the game that it is just like monoply or farmville or whatever. I am NOT going to sit here with spreadsheets and a calculator and spend all my free time trying to figure out whether this console will go with this weapon because of the 2.5% bonus or whatever.
I am trying to learn as much as I can and yes I have a 10k dps toon because I did get on here and some very nice gamers helped me build it but it took a lot of EC to do and still she only does 10k. I am playing alts now and no I don't care if I build another one.
If nobody wants to team with me fine I don't care one way or another but I am not going to spend all my time making this game a job. I am a casual gamer and WILL play my way!!!!
I only do normal stfs because I know that I don't have hight dps but I don't want everyship I have to be antiproton set up to make it a high dps toon
Not the best build but I did get 15k in ISA with it on a very bad run.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sharrthienkdf_0
The missing console is the constriction anchor.
This! I am in the same zone. I have lots of alts and I like to fly fun builds, a mine boat with pattern Alpha, does anybody do that. Don't be afraid, I won't come to your advanced or elite queu.
Nevertheless Cryptic should revamp things here. Cut the high DPS and lower the HP of NPC. Remember, a high DPS built is also an exotic build, a niche thing. Cap crit percentage at 10%. A crit should be a very rare and extreme hit. You should not see it often.
What is the point of having all kinds of ship gear and have all kinds of options to outfit your ship, while most of it is useless and does not work.
10K is enough for advanced content if you understand the missions, which i'm guessing you do.
I don't think anyone is saying that everyone has to get 50K+ now. It's the people doing less than 7k and showing up in advanced and elite queues. People can be casual gamers and get 8K dps.
Something like this would help players and help STO. I just wish we could get them to stop nerfing everything and pay attention to items like this from time to time.
If you have 10k, you're perfectly fine in Advanced queues.
...unless the rest of your team does less than 6k DPS, in which case you'll fail. That sort of situation (where you're fine, but the others aren't pulling their weight and thus cause you to fail through no fault of your own) is what's being complained about here.
Generally those topics tend to get hijacked by anti-DPSers who deliberately change the narrative and pretend the complaints are DPSers abusing people not doing 30k, but usually all that's being asked is for people to do 7k (and thus their share of the DPS necessary to successfully complete ISA).
Actually even 10k isn't enough for some, me and my husband did an infected conduit advanced both of us doiing at least 10k and we pugged the rest with most of them doing 7 or so and still failed. same with Borg Disconect Advanced me with my 10k toon, my husband with his his dps scimitar, and three fleet mates all doing pretty decent dps and still failed.
This is my problem, I need to do conduit on advanced with my Kling toon for the bnp's and can't do it without spending a lot of ec for gear I don't want. I have this 10k dps toon and really no need to do any stf's since she had all rep and have done all story missions
the alts are no where geared for what I need to do stf's but since I don't want them with the anti-pton dps build I need rep stuff so right now I am kinda stuck
Infected Conduit can fail if a sphere gets through and Borg Disconnected is about rescuing the Borg not blowing up the enemies. You could have one meelion DPS and still fail IC if someone popped a generator on the side you weren't on and a sphere got into healing range.
I'll bring up my board game analogy again.
Just like forum posters people in games can sometimes forget there playing with actual people. (and yes that is a dig at myself)
If we where to sit down and play a game of monopoly together... we can sit down and have a good time. However we would have to follow the rules.
I'm not going to sit down and say ok I'm the thimble and my thimble goes counter clockwise round the board cause I want to. My point is if your going to play a game with another person you can have lots of fun and a great time, while following the rules. Sitting down to play with someone and ignoring the rules is ignorant and rude.
The STFs are one of the few standard MMO mechanic things in the game. Meaning that yes they have rules, they are designed for teams, and they can be lost. While my initial words where harsh... I don't think anyone in this thread is saying people should take off an never come back. We are saying if your going to sit down and play a game with me, at least take the time to read the rules first. Understand what you are jumping into, and bring something capable of at least possibly having success. If you are bringing ships with less then 7-8k DPS into advanced versions of those missions you are setting your team up to fail.
The idea I proposed in the OP isn't realistic no... some training missions would be very realistic though. Its not about forcing people to play as I like... or even as Cryptic likes. (they make the STF rules not I). Its about teaching people the rules of the game... so they can have more fun.
Not what I'm talking about. In most MMOs though there are "standard" best practice things that people do in general so everyone is on the same page every run. In this game long ago someone decided left was the best way to go. (so that there wasn't any confusion) If you want to start an infected run and say in team chat "lets all go right first to do something different" go for it. lol
As we have pointed out in this thread more then a few times... Cryptic does a terrible job of letting people know what they should be bringing to the Advanced / Elite STFs. They made mention of Elite not being for everyone in there dev blog about the overhaul... they for sure don't do that in the game though.
Its been pointed out a 100 times in this thread now by this point. The rules aren't written no but they are very clear. Your team requires X DPS to complete a STF. In the case of Infected advanced that's around 35k DPS total between 5 people. So by bringing less then 7k DPS to that mission you are setting 4 other people up to fail.
In the end the overhaul of the STFs has pointed out one major issue with STO imo.
That is Cryptics lack of training in this game. Don't get me wrong I understand this is a Trek RP lovers dream game... and letting us run around and dress up and go pew pew is 95% of the fun for most of us. (I admit if I only cared about some space game play I would simply stay in EVE and never touch this game.. but I love trek like most of us do and pew pewing in a trek ship is fun)
I think Cryptic could do a better job of teaching some of the games players who have obviously not played a lot of other MMOs at least the basics of this game... so that if those players choose to take there game up a notch and try Advanced or Elite content they can have a better chance of doing well. (which honest will be more fun for them as well... not just people teaming up with them)