Please just sell ships with Hard fixed weapons and consoles. Develop a system to let people upgrade them a bit if you want to try to make some extra cash.
BUT Stop giving people options.
Cause when you give them options they start thinking the stupidest things you can imagine are good ideas for there ship builds.
I am sick of popping in now and then to play this game and realizing that a quick PvE Que is a no go because the average player in this game is beyond help.
Just spoon feed them please. There is no excuse for ships doing under 10k DPS anymore. The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
Some stuff just won't work folks... One of each weapon type... Torp/Beam/Single Canon/Torp... ect ect.
Just sell them preset STF Approved ships... they need it.
No worries I get that we sometimes spout off in frustration. For what it's worth I do believe Cryptic can do more to gate people into advanced and elites and I think they can do advanced tutorials as well in game, though I disagree with the lesz options part.
And I get your frustration at rpers with concept builds though most od them I know stick to normals with those. I guess the point is, I know where your coming from, and you are right that people need to be gated and be helped, but you can not totally dictate play style to people, nor give them less options.
In fairness I have seen some very good "RP" type builds out there. There isn't anything wrong with phaser and photon ships. OR a Sovi rocking a Quantum HY. I can only remember one instance where someone told me they where RPing and I wanted to smack them... but I don't think they let you into the STFs in a shuttle anymore. lol
I hear ya though... when I am experimenting with something new, I will do it in a patrol.. or a normal que, perhaps an Advanced if I knew well enough that it would work. I don't understand why anyone would be running something completely new to them and jump right into an Elite. lol Which ever though it is just a game in the end.
In fairness I have seen some very good "RP" type builds out there. There isn't anything wrong with phaser and photon ships. OR a Sovi rocking a Quantum HY. I can only remember one instance where someone told me they where RPing and I wanted to smack them... but I don't think they let you into the STFs in a shuttle anymore. lol
I hear ya though... when I am experimenting with something new, I will do it in a patrol.. or a normal que, perhaps an Advanced if I knew well enough that it would work. I don't understand why anyone would be running something completely new to them and jump right into an Elite. lol Which ever though it is just a game in the end.
I don't think it is new to them, but I can rock a normal in a failboat concept ship pretty much all the time, with optional added, and not break a sweat. You do that enough times, you think you're ready for advanced, and with the new fail options on advanced, normal does not prep you for advanced i any way.
A lot doesn't have anything to do with the players not wanting to get better, most don't realize they have to.
I would love to see one of these discussions handled in a constructive way. A guide to builds that are effective, a way of achieving the DPS numbers that you think people should be reaching or anything at all that doesn't come across as a slightly elitist rant.
That would be a far more effective way of achieving your goal - which I presume is to find more players in random groups that will be able to handle themselves.
Lets be honest... all that info is on these forums already. Anyone that wants to upgrade there build can do it right here. I can't think of a ship style that you can't go on the forums right now and with in 10 min pull up 5-6 threads detailing builds ect.
The issue is most of the games players are not on the forums and won't come here to find build help or info about the games mechanics. Ect ect.
Really what needs to happen imo... is for Cryptic to add some training missions to the game. Add some cool rewards. Perhaps a chain of missions with a "Red Squad Set" ship set, and KDF / Rom versions of the same. Set the missions up so they could not be skipped... then at the end of the chain reward a full days worth of D. (8000k D on the final mission of the advanced combat chain) Rewards so that new players would get the info... and so that old players would come back and run though them even if like me they say "I don't need it" perhaps we would all learn a little something we didn't know before and improve the level of end game play for all.
I don't think it is new to them, but I can rock a normal in a failboat concept ship pretty much all the time, with optional added, and not break a sweat. You do that enough times, you think you're ready for advanced, and with the new fail options on advanced, normal does not prep you for advanced i any way.
A lot doesn't have anything to do with the players not wanting to get better, most don't realize they have to.
A good point as well. I am sure the same thing happens to some degree in the jump from Adv -> Elite as well.
I would love to see a required training mission before unlocking each next level. Nothing punishingly long... just a quick 2-3 min mission that would explain what to expect and perhaps make a few general suggestions or something.
If you search Gold quality in Engi consoles it should be the first to show up. Ya there dirt cheap right now as they come out of the latest box. Grab one for all your toons now.
I think its 26% or so bonus Exotic dmg base....
The Anchor thing is usable as well... another control method. Seems to work well if you fire it into a GW full of borg.
Very nice! I have 304 points in partgens right now. +23.7% is gonna be fun stuff!
Thanks!
PS: And see? He is helping get better numbers. But... I know not to do elite and I can do advanced. I just don't like being the lowest DPS in the group when doing them. :-P
Here's an idea. Stop playing with 'terrible' players. Why should they play how you want them to? Do they complain when mr uber dps shows up to steal the show, slaughtering everything like a rabbid hound before they even get a shot off?
Not nearly as much as mr uber dps when he actually has to work for once because the rest of the team plays how they want to.
The game is already cookie cutter heaven, you really want to make it worse? Really?
Training missions I think that is something Cryptic should look into. Explain to new players that Weapons have distance fall off... explain to them what overcapping weapon power does... explain to them how Resistance and Defense work and how the 2 can allow you to tank dmg.
I would say even go as far as have some missions that do nothing but explain the workings of the games Staple skills. Explain Hazard Emiters and what debfuffs it clears (and what NPCs are likely to hit you with those debuffs)... explain Sci team and Tac team... EPTx... it shouldn't be that hard to create a great short series of missions that could set people on the game with a lot better understanding. I would think we would see far fewer end game players in ships that melt as soon as a borg looks at them... as well as not being able to kill something like a probe even if they had 10 min to do it in. These people can be taught... they figured out how to log in and how to get there toons to 60... surely a Cryptic made training mission could help them with the basics... and YES 3-5k DPS should be basic. I would argue 10k should be... but yes I understand that some people build for Max control and sacrifice dmg to do it.
This.
It's been mentioned before.
Cryptic does a terrible job introducing the game mechanics to players. Though many of the mechanics, as has also been mentioned before, are pretty esoteric, they could at least introduce new players to basic concepts.
Things like:
[*]Basic damage concepts: range, weapon power, shielded and unshielded targets.
The only conclusion is that players doing under that are Trolls / RPers that might as well be trolls... or just not intelligent enough to realize the game design is DPS DPS DPS....
They are trolls. There are trolls because STO decided to nerf rewards for STFs. When one or two people are not happy about the changes, the rest of the team suffers. This has been going on since the release of DR.
Very nice! I have 304 points in partgens right now. +23.7% is gonna be fun stuff!
Thanks!
PS: And see? He is helping get better numbers. But... I know not to do elite and I can do advanced. I just don't like being the lowest DPS in the group when doing them. :-P
Likely best to not pug the elites I know... I have heard what some folks have said. lol
I assume you have the particle manipulator trait as well. (level 15 sci crafting). If not its worth it, now we can run 3 20hr missions at a time as well... so its a lot easier to unlock it now if you don't already have.
Which sci ship are you running ? (if you don't mind my asking)
A good point as well. I am sure the same thing happens to some degree in the jump from Adv -> Elite as well.
I would love to see a required training mission before unlocking each next level. Nothing punishingly long... just a quick 2-3 min mission that would explain what to expect and perhaps make a few general suggestions or something.
I don't know the real difference between advanced and elite is communication and time. Time to upgrade your gear and communication between your team mates when you get there, but because the rewards on elite are so... mediocre at best most people who can don't... it's not worth the time.
The diference between normal and advanced is staggering when you think of it. Timed optionals, old optionals are now mandatory, much higher hp mobs...etc... etc.
The difference betwwen a 10k and 20k build is mostly time with a few tweaks added in there. The difference between 3k and 10k is a lot of knowledge of the game that most people just don't get.
I don't know the real difference between advanced and elite is communication and time. Time to upgrade your gear and communication between your team mates when you get there, but because the rewards on elite are so... mediocre at best most people who can don't... it's not worth the time.
The diference between normal and advanced is staggering when you think of it. Timed optionals, old optionals are now mandatory, much higher hp mobs...etc... etc.
The difference betwwen a 10k and 20k build is mostly time with a few tweaks added in there. The difference between 3k and 10k is a lot of knowledge of the game that most people just don't get.
That about sums it up. Once you can do a base line of dmg and understand how to tank at least a reasonable amount of it... after that its just gearing up to increase those numbers.
As for the rewards... you have a point there that could be why the Elite pug que seems so much more frustrating then it should. It is likely that many of the games competent players are pugging the advanced ques when they pug. Could mean the majority of the people hitting up the Elite Ques are people completely fresh to them.
Likely best to not pug the elites I know... I have heard what some folks have said. lol
I assume you have the particle manipulator trait as well. (level 15 sci crafting). If not its worth it, now we can run 3 20hr missions at a time as well... so its a lot easier to unlock it now if you don't already have.
Which sci ship are you running ? (if you don't mind my asking)
Have the R&D trait. Have positive feedback loop. I also have the normal science traits slotted and good points in warp core potential to boost the lower powered systems.
Both the KDF and Fed are skilled and traited the same but the KDF is a joined trill and the Fed is a normal trill. On my KDF, which I consider my main, I am in the Breen Carrier lacking a T6 ship for science but on my Fed I bounce between the carrier, the Experimental T6 and the Rhode Island Fleet. I have the Dyson Tactical Destroyer for both but it's borked right now and the carrier is really much better than the Dyson by far. The pets do about 4-6k dps alone.
That about sums it up. Once you can do a base line of dmg and understand how to tank at least a reasonable amount of it... after that its just gearing up to increase those numbers. .
Right, but if normal stfs don't make you learn this... and you need this for advanced, there is a disconnect that no tutorial will teach anyone, because comprehension is lost.
The big problem here is that.advanced covers too broad of a spectrum of players. Those 3k to 5k who are just coming out of normals with only basic understanding and meh gear, and those who are ready for elite except they're just biding time waiting on the dil, marks, and ec to upgrade to elite level... and advanced tries to cater to all of them unsuccessfully I might add.
Marks is another issue. The game does a horrible job in some cases of giving out advanced marks to get better gear without doing stfs... in some cases... and in other cases fails to really direct people to optional avenues. Now admittedly Cryptic has said they are looking into it, but that could take... years... knowing Cryptic. In the mean time people are queing for stfs just to get those.
I'm going to make one more attempt at this, but I'm sure I'm going to get laughed out of this topic too. I've been running CLR on every STF I've done for the last roughly 3 weeks. Primarily Borg Disconnected, Crystalline Advanced, and Bug Hunt Elite. I threw in a couple of ISA just to check DPS numbers. All PUG runs. I can count on one hand the number of runs I wasn't either first or second in both DPS and Damage flying an engineer in either a Vesta or the Vaadwaur Battlecruiser. More often than not, I'm making up 50% of the damage table and that's with me running web mines which aren't picked up by CLR.
However, not once have I parsed at 10k DPS. The ISA runs were the highest at just over 9k, most of the others are around 4k. However, according to many people here on the forums, I suck and I'm dragging STF's down. If I suck, I have no problem being told I suck. I do however expect to be told why I suck and how I can fix it. So far, that hasn't happened. If anyone here complaining about the quality of players can show me how to "fix" my Vesta without insisting I need fleet gear my fleet doesn't have, I'm all ears.
People keep insisting in these threads that you don't have to have a cookie cutter build to meet this DPS "requirement" but I can't find anybody who can tell me how to do it without a cookie cutter build and/or using only elite fleet gear which is cookie cutter in and of itself. I asked in the other thread and I'll ask it again here. If you feel 10k DPS is the minimum requirement and/or a cakewalk to get, I want to see your build as an engineer flying a cruiser or science vessel running non-pay2win/non-fleet gear and a parse to go with it. Somebody linked me to the reddit starter build threads last time. While that's great info to be sure (and I did look at all the builds) I pointed out there was only one build in that thread that wasn't using paid (Zen) items. And even then, it was mostly all escorts. And I honestly don't see how a couple of them could possibly be doing 10k DPS.
If the game has such a narrow window that you have to fly an escort or carrier and can only roll tac or sci captains to be able to meet the "minimums" for STF's, that's a problem with the game, not the players.
That said, I completely agree there are terrible players. However neither the game nor much of the community do much to fix it. "I don't have time to help every person in STO". Yet you have time to complain about every person in STO. If everybody has that attitude, nobody is ever going to get taught.
Even the nicer players who do try to help assume you know as about the game as they do. "Have you looked at the ship builds on Reddit"? How would I know there's a build thread on Reddit? Then there's the fact that EVERYTHING gets abbreviated. That's great if you're talking to other experienced players. But why would you think the "n00b" you hate so much would have any idea what those abbreviations mean? It's not like there's a glossary in game where you can go look them up.
Xavier, you can do ISA with far less than what a lot say is required and still beat the timer. It comes down to CC and proper target order with a good deal of teamwork. You just won't be setting records on time runs. I have had quite a few ISA pugs that beat it with literally seconds left. I have also had them blow the stacks off it. I am not sure of other's fail rates, but I haven't really failed as many ISA or CSA on normal or advanced in any pugs. I have failed only one Bug Hunt and that was on elite.
Basically, there are good pugs and bad pugs. I have been lucky to not have bad pugs when I have pugged. Generally, however, I run with 2 or 3 others and we pick up only 1 or 2 pugs. Playing with people you know, who know you, and know how to communicate helps in all cases.
And I am not a high ISA DPS. I pull about 9k in ISA. A lot more in Crystalline... or I did before the latest patch. I pull a lot more warp core explosions now with a tholian 1/5th the power of the boss and lots of tholians to contend with.
Have the R&D trait. Have positive feedback loop. I also have the normal science traits slotted and good points in warp core potential to boost the lower powered systems.
Both the KDF and Fed are skilled and traited the same but the KDF is a joined trill and the Fed is a normal trill. On my KDF, which I consider my main, I am in the Breen Carrier lacking a T6 ship for science but on my Fed I bounce between the carrier, the Experimental T6 and the Rhode Island Fleet. I have the Dyson Tactical Destroyer for both but it's borked right now and the carrier is really much better than the Dyson by far. The pets do about 4-6k dps alone.
Nice ya the KDF got shafted on sci pretty hard. At one point I had 3 KDF scis back when the bop was the main weapon of choice. Since then I have paired it down to one and that toon into a KDF Time ship. Still one of the best DPS sci ships out there, always hoped they would add a proper KDF Sci/bop type ship. No market for that I guess.
I never did pick up one of the dauts... just seems like it had way to much Tac on it to me.
I am loving the fed Scryer... its border line OP now that they gave it sensor ann. I use a lot less intel then most people on it still nice to have a few options on there. I'm liking some of the under appreciated intel skills on there like Evade target lock and kinetic magnet. I run that thing as a pure torp boat with heavy exotic dmg and rack up the DPS with that thing. Lots of control to save the fail pugs at times as well. lol
Not sure if you could get a fleet warp core but
Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core Mk XII [Rep] [S->A] [WCap] [AMP] [SSS] I found to be great for a Sci / Torp DPS ship... has AMP and boosts shield and aux powers. I wish there was a [a->s] option instead, doesn't make much difference I guess in the end.
I know you didn't ask and I am sure your build is good... http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=daughthus_0 that is what I would do with that ship I think aprox though. I didn't go though and find all the consoles... thats easy though.. 4 Embassy Consoles + 1 Crafted Sci with PGen (if you can)... 1 Engi Min console.. Enhanced Neut with turn.... 1 Crafted RCS with PGEN (if you can afford it). In the tac slots go the uni consoles you may want to run like the new Anchor one.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=scryhus_0 that is my current Scryer layout... with the same weapons. 2 rep potons + Harpang in front... 360 / experimental (for the insane photon bonus) / breen cluster in rear. I think most people have moved on to the neutronic quantum, I can't bring myself to run that one almost seems like cheating. lol Besides 95% of the DPS comes from the exotic anyway.
EDIT just realized I have been running a different torp setup... (just logged in) lol I move the grav photon to the back and took out the Breen cluster... so I could put the plasma emish torp in the front... cause the Dot on that thing is boosted by all the exotic stuff.
Nice ya the KDF got shafted on sci pretty hard. At one point I had 3 KDF scis back when the bop was the main weapon of choice. Since then I have paired it down to one and that toon into a KDF Time ship. Still one of the best DPS sci ships out there, always hoped they would add a proper KDF Sci/bop type ship. No market for that I guess.
I never did pick up one of the dauts... just seems like it had way to much Tac on it to me.
I am loving the fed Scryer... its border line OP now that they gave it sensor ann. I use a lot less intel then most people on it still nice to have a few options on there. I'm liking some of the under appreciated intel skills on there like Evade target lock and kinetic magnet. I run that thing as a pure torp boat with heavy exotic dmg and rack up the DPS with that thing. Lots of control to save the fail pugs at times as well. lol
Not sure if you could get a fleet warp core but
Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core Mk XII [Rep] [S->A] [WCap] [AMP] [SSS] I found to be great for a Sci / Torp DPS ship... has AMP and boosts shield and aux powers. I wish there was a [a->s] option instead, doesn't make much difference I guess in the end.
I know you didn't ask and I am sure your build is good... http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=daughthus_0 that is what I would do with that ship I think aprox though. I didn't go though and find all the consoles... thats easy though.. 4 Embassy Consoles + 1 Crafted Sci with PGen (if you can)... 1 Engi Min console.. Enhanced Neut with turn.... 1 Crafted RCS with PGEN (if you can afford it). In the tac slots go the uni consoles you may want to run like the new Anchor one.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=scryhus_0 that is my current Scryer layout... with the same weapons. 2 rep potons + Harpang in front... 360 / experimental (for the insane photon bonus) / breen cluster in rear. I think most people have moved on to the neutronic quantum, I can't bring myself to run that one almost seems like cheating. lol Besides 95% of the DPS comes from the exotic anyway.
EDIT just realized I have been running a different torp setup... (just logged in) lol I move the grav photon to the back and took out the Breen cluster... so I could put the plasma emish torp in the front... cause the Dot on that thing is boosted by all the exotic stuff.
Thanks, I will look them over. I am itching to get on and get me some anchors even though I rage quit (three times) last week. LOL I feel like a heel going back and unquitting yet again.
I am loving the fed Scryer... its border line OP now that they gave it sensor ann. I use a lot less intel then most people on it still nice to have a few options on there. I'm liking some of the under appreciated intel skills on there like Evade target lock and kinetic magnet. I run that thing as a pure torp boat with heavy exotic dmg and rack up the DPS with that thing. Lots of control to save the fail pugs at times as well. lolf.
I love the scryer for pvp, but the pathfinder with that aeroshuttle is my new darling in pve.
Your entire post though kind of proves my point. How much of that do you really need for normals? None of it. You can do normals in FAW beam sci boats with blue gear and do just fine. You get to advanced, and you get hammered unless you are in a really good pug.
Now add in those who do come to the forums for help, and are told old or really bad gouge by well meaning players.. who simply don't know any better and are passing on that cookie cutterbuild. I would never build a vesta or dauntless the same way as a pathfinder or scryer, but how many times have you seen that? Heck how many times have you seen people tell sci ship drivers to put their aux at 25 and beam energy at 125?
So though you and I have gotten past it, for some of the others, just because you suck at dps doesn't make you a troll. You just may be ignorant.
There's a curious sort of trap Cryptic is creating with rainbow procs, if I stop to think about it. There was the prior talk back in the day (ongoing) about the issue of rainbow energy types (you had the +20% from a Generic vs. +30% from a Specific, and while the difference is less with the Fleet Tac consoles, there is still a difference)...
...but I'm sitting here looking at the Samsar that I'm dorking around with and though my six arrays are all Polaron damage, they're 2 + 2 + 2 as far as procs go. I've got 2 Thoron, 2 Vaadwaur, and 2 normal Polaron proc.
So instead of having 6 weapons giving me a ~14.1% probability of getting that proc per cycle, I'm looking at three ~4.9% probabilities for a proc. Sure, the overall probability of getting a proc is still ~14.1%; but I've got a ~4.9% probability of the Thoron proc, of the Vaadwaur proc, or the standard Polaron proc.
If I'm building to try to maximize the probability of a proc, well...yeah...I'm not doing that by doing it the way I've got it now. I've got the same chance of "something" happening...just a case that it could be one of three things.
If the game has such a narrow window that you have to fly an escort or carrier and can only roll tac or sci captains to be able to meet the "minimums" for STF's, that's a problem with the game, not the players.
That said, I completely agree there are terrible players. However neither the game nor much of the community do much to fix it. "I don't have time to help every person in STO". Yet you have time to complain about every person in STO. If everybody has that attitude, nobody is ever going to get taught.
You know what you have a point. People have been complaining about the PvE being super DPS biased and that effecting Engi captains for 4 or so years now. (at least as long as the weapon power changes made there Nadion inversion mostly useless).
To be frank... I was a bit annoyed and out of line in the OP. Yes you can be very effective with out providing 10k DPS. However if you ARE in one of those escort ships and you ARE a tac you should be providing 10k DPS as a base sure.
This is part of what Cryptic has done wrong with this game. They have failed to properly explain what each captain / ship type should be focusing on. They have muddled things up even more by giving us a ton of ships that do everything. (Battle cruisers / battle Science ships / Destoryers) ect.
Tacs should be shooting for 10k+ DPS yes... Sci and Engi will have a harder time getting there no doubt. They are both still capable in the right ship of course. A properly setup Escort will do more dmg in general yes because that is the focus of an escort. It has more Tac consoles in general and more Boff slots dedicated to doing dmg... as well as Boosts to weapon power. Still engi in the right battle cruiser should be able to get there as well. Of course I would love to have a solid engi on my team dishing out 5-8k in DPS that is able to toss me an Engi team / Sif / hazards what ever when I have pulled all the rooms argo and have 5% hull left.
In any event... if you want to know hot to make an engi Science ship do crazy DPS... read the above post about science ships. You would be lacking the Science Sensor Scan which is nice... and the Science Captain trait "conversion of energy" however you would be a bit more tanky which is nice. Over all the DPS wouldn't likely be to different. If you would rather play a cruiser there is plenty of info on how to build crazy DPS cruisers... that even a well played engi will push well past 10k.
There's a curious sort of trap Cryptic is creating with rainbow procs, if I stop to think about it. There was the prior talk back in the day (ongoing) about the issue of rainbow energy types (you had the +20% from a Generic vs. +30% from a Specific, and while the difference is less with the Fleet Tac consoles, there is still a difference)...
...but I'm sitting here looking at the Samsar that I'm dorking around with and though my six arrays are all Polaron damage, they're 2 + 2 + 2 as far as procs go. I've got 2 Thoron, 2 Vaadwaur, and 2 normal Polaron proc.
So instead of having 6 weapons giving me a ~14.1% probability of getting that proc per cycle, I'm looking at three ~4.9% probabilities for a proc. Sure, the overall probability of getting a proc is still ~14.1%; but I've got a ~4.9% probability of the Thoron proc, of the Vaadwaur proc, or the standard Polaron proc.
If I'm building to try to maximize the probability of a proc, well...yeah...I'm not doing that by doing it the way I've got it now. I've got the same chance of "something" happening...just a case that it could be one of three things.
Cryptic is infamous for setting traps in STO and honestly I think it's because they don't know any better themselves... or just don't care in their drive to create the next best shiney.
I mean look at some of the ships they put out with some of the boff slots,.
There's a curious sort of trap Cryptic is creating with rainbow procs, if I stop to think about it. There was the prior talk back in the day (ongoing) about the issue of rainbow energy types (you had the +20% from a Generic vs. +30% from a Specific, and while the difference is less with the Fleet Tac consoles, there is still a difference)...
...but I'm sitting here looking at the Samsar that I'm dorking around with and though my six arrays are all Polaron damage, they're 2 + 2 + 2 as far as procs go. I've got 2 Thoron, 2 Vaadwaur, and 2 normal Polaron proc.
So instead of having 6 weapons giving me a ~14.1% probability of getting that proc per cycle, I'm looking at three ~4.9% probabilities for a proc. Sure, the overall probability of getting a proc is still ~14.1%; but I've got a ~4.9% probability of the Thoron proc, of the Vaadwaur proc, or the standard Polaron proc.
If I'm building to try to maximize the probability of a proc, well...yeah...I'm not doing that by doing it the way I've got it now. I've got the same chance of "something" happening...just a case that it could be one of three things.
Its just completely random like most stuff in STO. At least in PvE no one is on the other end going wtf just happened.
Gotta love that about STO PvP. This is the only game where even vets will go scrolling though there log cause they aren't quite sure what killed them. lol
Not that its on the topic... but that math your using is of course a lot of the reason people have been frustrated by STO PvP so often. 2.5% seems like such a small number or ... 2% more crit. I think it comes down to Cryptic not being that good at math. Cause your right 6 weapons one weapon cycle 2.5% = 14.09% chance.
100 changes and 4 years back I used to blap people in one round of cannons cause I was smart enough to realize CrtHx3 was Super OP. (back before defense ect forced us into the ACC race)
And this is why people struggle. Because no one is willing to give friendly advice. Its all "You suck! GTFO N00B!"
And I am not a troll just because I do around 7k consistantly with my Guardian. Excuse me for not upgrading from mk XII purple phasers. It may not be a DPS beast, but its consistant, and isn't a cookie cutter build that doesn't fit my playstyle.
OK, this OP wasn't particularly friendly, but there is plenty of friendly advice available online. Lots of sites, stickied posts here, threads on reddit.... All you have to do is look.
Or just stay out of advanced. Normal content can be fun, so I don't see why people who just refuse to put together a decent build have to go to advanced or elite.
Also, you could be getting more dps out of those mk xii purple phasers. When I used mk xii purple phasers with a tanky build for tanking I was getting around 14k. I think people seriously overestimate what it takes to get into the mid 10,000's range.
Yes, the game is about DPS, but some missions aren't.
Viscous Cycle for example, where it's also important to have stealth, crowd control, to survive and help the player that has aggro.
Same goes for Borg Disconnected, where you need to have a dynamic with your pair on side you are clearing.
Also Cure Found(CSA) is not anymore about defending Kang by one player, no one needs to stop the BoPs.
You just need to kill all 3 shipyards fast enough then go and kill everything else as a team.
ISE is for DPS measuring, bit of piloting and positioning, not wasting all your buffs at first cube and you're good to go.
As for weapon types. Yes, beam setups will do highest DPS, DHCannon or Torpedo setups will do less DPS but with higher damage probability per buffed attack, spike, Science with high particle generators and GW, TBR, FBP with doff and torpedos will do very high as well so all are valid.
Intel ships also can nicely debuff and control entire groups as well as do damage.
There are literally million setups that can succeed in any and all missions.
Mission goal is the key. If it's "Destroy Everything in 10 minutes" then you will naturally go in with a ship that can do that, at least as a 1/5 of a team.
I agree with Husanak, though, for start, every class needs to use their strengths.
Engineer for example that can't put out enormous amounts of damage can be made for threat and crowd control through threat ctrl skill, APDelta Doff, EWP, and still dish out some damage with EPTW, FAW, DEM, A2B.
Such ship can take all the aggro, let the sci control the crowd even further with numerous available SCI skills and let the tacs to finish enemies off quickly. Pinnacle of team play.
Only problem in getting at least there is that game doesn't teach you at any point what boff skills you need to use when playing episodes.
There are also quirks in game that are no where stated as such: that energy weapons benefit greatly from overcapping and reducing energy drain from wep subsystems, that torpedo spreads can't miss and will follow even if target cloaks after torps being fired, that shooting NPC aceton assimilators with energy weapons is not a good idea, etc.
Game expects you to learn those things through trial, error and experimentation and as I see from forums and game, people take personal offense if you tell them something.
I blame Admiral Quinn for all of this. He promoted all those redshirts and gave them a ship. And now they will continue to do what redshirts do.
Seriously though, the game needs better tutorials on how to get at least some basic performance out of your ships. Maybe add a dummy target which lets you test your build and gives you some feedback on how much damage you do. Cryptic also has to stop putting such retarted gear choices on ships which gives new players the wrong idea on how to make a solid build.
You know what you have a point. People have been complaining about the PvE being super DPS biased and that effecting Engi captains for 4 or so years now. (at least as long as the weapon power changes made there Nadion inversion mostly useless).
To be frank... I was a bit annoyed and out of line in the OP. Yes you can be very effective with out providing 10k DPS. However if you ARE in one of those escort ships and you ARE a tac you should be providing 10k DPS as a base sure.
And for the record, I wasn't directing my post at you. 10k is a number I see brought up ALL the time. The discussion you two were having about your science ship did give me some ideas on things to change on my build which I'm going to try when I get home.
However, I guess what I was getting at is, I don't think I'm a horrible player (maybe I am). I'm flying a T5-U ship with all MK XIV gear. I've got a full set of starship traits, full set of rep traits, and I'm using only space traits on the regular traits. But yet I'm not meeting what many people seem to consider the bare minimum damage you should be doing. Either I am a horrible player or there's something wrong with that picture.
Comments
Die in a fire.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
In fairness I have seen some very good "RP" type builds out there. There isn't anything wrong with phaser and photon ships. OR a Sovi rocking a Quantum HY. I can only remember one instance where someone told me they where RPing and I wanted to smack them... but I don't think they let you into the STFs in a shuttle anymore.
I hear ya though... when I am experimenting with something new, I will do it in a patrol.. or a normal que, perhaps an Advanced if I knew well enough that it would work. I don't understand why anyone would be running something completely new to them and jump right into an Elite. lol Which ever though it is just a game in the end.
Hazard Emitters...
It's the icon that looks like you're throwing a fireball at a bunch of NPCs.
I don't think it is new to them, but I can rock a normal in a failboat concept ship pretty much all the time, with optional added, and not break a sweat. You do that enough times, you think you're ready for advanced, and with the new fail options on advanced, normal does not prep you for advanced i any way.
A lot doesn't have anything to do with the players not wanting to get better, most don't realize they have to.
Okay. You got me. I chortled. Quality response.
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Lets be honest... all that info is on these forums already. Anyone that wants to upgrade there build can do it right here. I can't think of a ship style that you can't go on the forums right now and with in 10 min pull up 5-6 threads detailing builds ect.
The issue is most of the games players are not on the forums and won't come here to find build help or info about the games mechanics. Ect ect.
Really what needs to happen imo... is for Cryptic to add some training missions to the game. Add some cool rewards. Perhaps a chain of missions with a "Red Squad Set" ship set, and KDF / Rom versions of the same. Set the missions up so they could not be skipped... then at the end of the chain reward a full days worth of D. (8000k D on the final mission of the advanced combat chain) Rewards so that new players would get the info... and so that old players would come back and run though them even if like me they say "I don't need it" perhaps we would all learn a little something we didn't know before and improve the level of end game play for all.
A good point as well. I am sure the same thing happens to some degree in the jump from Adv -> Elite as well.
I would love to see a required training mission before unlocking each next level. Nothing punishingly long... just a quick 2-3 min mission that would explain what to expect and perhaps make a few general suggestions or something.
Very nice! I have 304 points in partgens right now. +23.7% is gonna be fun stuff!
Thanks!
PS: And see? He is helping get better numbers. But... I know not to do elite and I can do advanced. I just don't like being the lowest DPS in the group when doing them. :-P
Not nearly as much as mr uber dps when he actually has to work for once because the rest of the team plays how they want to.
The game is already cookie cutter heaven, you really want to make it worse? Really?
This.
It's been mentioned before.
Cryptic does a terrible job introducing the game mechanics to players. Though many of the mechanics, as has also been mentioned before, are pretty esoteric, they could at least introduce new players to basic concepts.
Things like:
[*]Basic damage concepts: range, weapon power, shielded and unshielded targets.
[*]Defense: Shields, shield healing, shield hardness, damage resistance, movement/speed
[*]Healing: Engineering team vs. Auxilliary power to Structural integrity field (Aux2sif)
[*]How the different team skills function.
[*]How the captain skills work as they are acquired.
Cryptic could do a great deal to include basic information in the tutorial.
They are trolls. There are trolls because STO decided to nerf rewards for STFs. When one or two people are not happy about the changes, the rest of the team suffers. This has been going on since the release of DR.
Likely best to not pug the elites I know... I have heard what some folks have said. lol
I assume you have the particle manipulator trait as well. (level 15 sci crafting). If not its worth it, now we can run 3 20hr missions at a time as well... so its a lot easier to unlock it now if you don't already have.
Which sci ship are you running ? (if you don't mind my asking)
I don't know the real difference between advanced and elite is communication and time. Time to upgrade your gear and communication between your team mates when you get there, but because the rewards on elite are so... mediocre at best most people who can don't... it's not worth the time.
The diference between normal and advanced is staggering when you think of it. Timed optionals, old optionals are now mandatory, much higher hp mobs...etc... etc.
The difference betwwen a 10k and 20k build is mostly time with a few tweaks added in there. The difference between 3k and 10k is a lot of knowledge of the game that most people just don't get.
That about sums it up. Once you can do a base line of dmg and understand how to tank at least a reasonable amount of it... after that its just gearing up to increase those numbers.
As for the rewards... you have a point there that could be why the Elite pug que seems so much more frustrating then it should. It is likely that many of the games competent players are pugging the advanced ques when they pug. Could mean the majority of the people hitting up the Elite Ques are people completely fresh to them.
Have the R&D trait. Have positive feedback loop. I also have the normal science traits slotted and good points in warp core potential to boost the lower powered systems.
Both the KDF and Fed are skilled and traited the same but the KDF is a joined trill and the Fed is a normal trill. On my KDF, which I consider my main, I am in the Breen Carrier lacking a T6 ship for science but on my Fed I bounce between the carrier, the Experimental T6 and the Rhode Island Fleet. I have the Dyson Tactical Destroyer for both but it's borked right now and the carrier is really much better than the Dyson by far. The pets do about 4-6k dps alone.
Right, but if normal stfs don't make you learn this... and you need this for advanced, there is a disconnect that no tutorial will teach anyone, because comprehension is lost.
The big problem here is that.advanced covers too broad of a spectrum of players. Those 3k to 5k who are just coming out of normals with only basic understanding and meh gear, and those who are ready for elite except they're just biding time waiting on the dil, marks, and ec to upgrade to elite level... and advanced tries to cater to all of them unsuccessfully I might add.
Marks is another issue. The game does a horrible job in some cases of giving out advanced marks to get better gear without doing stfs... in some cases... and in other cases fails to really direct people to optional avenues. Now admittedly Cryptic has said they are looking into it, but that could take... years... knowing Cryptic. In the mean time people are queing for stfs just to get those.
No idea what my DPS is, nor do I care. I play to have fun first, everything else last..
However, not once have I parsed at 10k DPS. The ISA runs were the highest at just over 9k, most of the others are around 4k. However, according to many people here on the forums, I suck and I'm dragging STF's down. If I suck, I have no problem being told I suck. I do however expect to be told why I suck and how I can fix it. So far, that hasn't happened. If anyone here complaining about the quality of players can show me how to "fix" my Vesta without insisting I need fleet gear my fleet doesn't have, I'm all ears.
People keep insisting in these threads that you don't have to have a cookie cutter build to meet this DPS "requirement" but I can't find anybody who can tell me how to do it without a cookie cutter build and/or using only elite fleet gear which is cookie cutter in and of itself. I asked in the other thread and I'll ask it again here. If you feel 10k DPS is the minimum requirement and/or a cakewalk to get, I want to see your build as an engineer flying a cruiser or science vessel running non-pay2win/non-fleet gear and a parse to go with it. Somebody linked me to the reddit starter build threads last time. While that's great info to be sure (and I did look at all the builds) I pointed out there was only one build in that thread that wasn't using paid (Zen) items. And even then, it was mostly all escorts. And I honestly don't see how a couple of them could possibly be doing 10k DPS.
If the game has such a narrow window that you have to fly an escort or carrier and can only roll tac or sci captains to be able to meet the "minimums" for STF's, that's a problem with the game, not the players.
That said, I completely agree there are terrible players. However neither the game nor much of the community do much to fix it. "I don't have time to help every person in STO". Yet you have time to complain about every person in STO. If everybody has that attitude, nobody is ever going to get taught.
Even the nicer players who do try to help assume you know as about the game as they do. "Have you looked at the ship builds on Reddit"? How would I know there's a build thread on Reddit? Then there's the fact that EVERYTHING gets abbreviated. That's great if you're talking to other experienced players. But why would you think the "n00b" you hate so much would have any idea what those abbreviations mean? It's not like there's a glossary in game where you can go look them up.
Basically, there are good pugs and bad pugs. I have been lucky to not have bad pugs when I have pugged. Generally, however, I run with 2 or 3 others and we pick up only 1 or 2 pugs. Playing with people you know, who know you, and know how to communicate helps in all cases.
And I am not a high ISA DPS. I pull about 9k in ISA. A lot more in Crystalline... or I did before the latest patch. I pull a lot more warp core explosions now with a tholian 1/5th the power of the boss and lots of tholians to contend with.
Nice ya the KDF got shafted on sci pretty hard. At one point I had 3 KDF scis back when the bop was the main weapon of choice. Since then I have paired it down to one and that toon into a KDF Time ship. Still one of the best DPS sci ships out there, always hoped they would add a proper KDF Sci/bop type ship. No market for that I guess.
I never did pick up one of the dauts... just seems like it had way to much Tac on it to me.
I am loving the fed Scryer... its border line OP now that they gave it sensor ann. I use a lot less intel then most people on it still nice to have a few options on there. I'm liking some of the under appreciated intel skills on there like Evade target lock and kinetic magnet. I run that thing as a pure torp boat with heavy exotic dmg and rack up the DPS with that thing. Lots of control to save the fail pugs at times as well. lol
Not sure if you could get a fleet warp core but
Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core Mk XII [Rep] [S->A] [WCap] [AMP] [SSS] I found to be great for a Sci / Torp DPS ship... has AMP and boosts shield and aux powers. I wish there was a [a->s] option instead, doesn't make much difference I guess in the end.
I know you didn't ask and I am sure your build is good... http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=daughthus_0 that is what I would do with that ship I think aprox though. I didn't go though and find all the consoles... thats easy though.. 4 Embassy Consoles + 1 Crafted Sci with PGen (if you can)... 1 Engi Min console.. Enhanced Neut with turn.... 1 Crafted RCS with PGEN (if you can afford it). In the tac slots go the uni consoles you may want to run like the new Anchor one.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=scryhus_0 that is my current Scryer layout... with the same weapons. 2 rep potons + Harpang in front... 360 / experimental (for the insane photon bonus) / breen cluster in rear. I think most people have moved on to the neutronic quantum, I can't bring myself to run that one almost seems like cheating. lol Besides 95% of the DPS comes from the exotic anyway.
EDIT just realized I have been running a different torp setup... (just logged in) lol I move the grav photon to the back and took out the Breen cluster... so I could put the plasma emish torp in the front... cause the Dot on that thing is boosted by all the exotic stuff.
Thanks, I will look them over. I am itching to get on and get me some anchors even though I rage quit (three times) last week. LOL I feel like a heel going back and unquitting yet again.
I love the scryer for pvp, but the pathfinder with that aeroshuttle is my new darling in pve.
Your entire post though kind of proves my point. How much of that do you really need for normals? None of it. You can do normals in FAW beam sci boats with blue gear and do just fine. You get to advanced, and you get hammered unless you are in a really good pug.
Now add in those who do come to the forums for help, and are told old or really bad gouge by well meaning players.. who simply don't know any better and are passing on that cookie cutterbuild. I would never build a vesta or dauntless the same way as a pathfinder or scryer, but how many times have you seen that? Heck how many times have you seen people tell sci ship drivers to put their aux at 25 and beam energy at 125?
So though you and I have gotten past it, for some of the others, just because you suck at dps doesn't make you a troll. You just may be ignorant.
...but I'm sitting here looking at the Samsar that I'm dorking around with and though my six arrays are all Polaron damage, they're 2 + 2 + 2 as far as procs go. I've got 2 Thoron, 2 Vaadwaur, and 2 normal Polaron proc.
So instead of having 6 weapons giving me a ~14.1% probability of getting that proc per cycle, I'm looking at three ~4.9% probabilities for a proc. Sure, the overall probability of getting a proc is still ~14.1%; but I've got a ~4.9% probability of the Thoron proc, of the Vaadwaur proc, or the standard Polaron proc.
If I'm building to try to maximize the probability of a proc, well...yeah...I'm not doing that by doing it the way I've got it now. I've got the same chance of "something" happening...just a case that it could be one of three things.
You know what you have a point. People have been complaining about the PvE being super DPS biased and that effecting Engi captains for 4 or so years now. (at least as long as the weapon power changes made there Nadion inversion mostly useless).
To be frank... I was a bit annoyed and out of line in the OP. Yes you can be very effective with out providing 10k DPS. However if you ARE in one of those escort ships and you ARE a tac you should be providing 10k DPS as a base sure.
This is part of what Cryptic has done wrong with this game. They have failed to properly explain what each captain / ship type should be focusing on. They have muddled things up even more by giving us a ton of ships that do everything. (Battle cruisers / battle Science ships / Destoryers) ect.
Tacs should be shooting for 10k+ DPS yes... Sci and Engi will have a harder time getting there no doubt. They are both still capable in the right ship of course. A properly setup Escort will do more dmg in general yes because that is the focus of an escort. It has more Tac consoles in general and more Boff slots dedicated to doing dmg... as well as Boosts to weapon power. Still engi in the right battle cruiser should be able to get there as well. Of course I would love to have a solid engi on my team dishing out 5-8k in DPS that is able to toss me an Engi team / Sif / hazards what ever when I have pulled all the rooms argo and have 5% hull left.
In any event... if you want to know hot to make an engi Science ship do crazy DPS... read the above post about science ships. You would be lacking the Science Sensor Scan which is nice... and the Science Captain trait "conversion of energy" however you would be a bit more tanky which is nice. Over all the DPS wouldn't likely be to different. If you would rather play a cruiser there is plenty of info on how to build crazy DPS cruisers... that even a well played engi will push well past 10k.
Cryptic is infamous for setting traps in STO and honestly I think it's because they don't know any better themselves... or just don't care in their drive to create the next best shiney.
I mean look at some of the ships they put out with some of the boff slots,.
Its just completely random like most stuff in STO. At least in PvE no one is on the other end going wtf just happened.
Gotta love that about STO PvP. This is the only game where even vets will go scrolling though there log cause they aren't quite sure what killed them. lol
Not that its on the topic... but that math your using is of course a lot of the reason people have been frustrated by STO PvP so often. 2.5% seems like such a small number or ... 2% more crit. I think it comes down to Cryptic not being that good at math. Cause your right 6 weapons one weapon cycle 2.5% = 14.09% chance.
100 changes and 4 years back I used to blap people in one round of cannons cause I was smart enough to realize CrtHx3 was Super OP. (back before defense ect forced us into the ACC race)
OK, this OP wasn't particularly friendly, but there is plenty of friendly advice available online. Lots of sites, stickied posts here, threads on reddit.... All you have to do is look.
Or just stay out of advanced. Normal content can be fun, so I don't see why people who just refuse to put together a decent build have to go to advanced or elite.
Also, you could be getting more dps out of those mk xii purple phasers. When I used mk xii purple phasers with a tanky build for tanking I was getting around 14k. I think people seriously overestimate what it takes to get into the mid 10,000's range.
Viscous Cycle for example, where it's also important to have stealth, crowd control, to survive and help the player that has aggro.
Same goes for Borg Disconnected, where you need to have a dynamic with your pair on side you are clearing.
Also Cure Found(CSA) is not anymore about defending Kang by one player, no one needs to stop the BoPs.
You just need to kill all 3 shipyards fast enough then go and kill everything else as a team.
ISE is for DPS measuring, bit of piloting and positioning, not wasting all your buffs at first cube and you're good to go.
As for weapon types. Yes, beam setups will do highest DPS, DHCannon or Torpedo setups will do less DPS but with higher damage probability per buffed attack, spike, Science with high particle generators and GW, TBR, FBP with doff and torpedos will do very high as well so all are valid.
Intel ships also can nicely debuff and control entire groups as well as do damage.
There are literally million setups that can succeed in any and all missions.
Mission goal is the key. If it's "Destroy Everything in 10 minutes" then you will naturally go in with a ship that can do that, at least as a 1/5 of a team.
I agree with Husanak, though, for start, every class needs to use their strengths.
Engineer for example that can't put out enormous amounts of damage can be made for threat and crowd control through threat ctrl skill, APDelta Doff, EWP, and still dish out some damage with EPTW, FAW, DEM, A2B.
Such ship can take all the aggro, let the sci control the crowd even further with numerous available SCI skills and let the tacs to finish enemies off quickly. Pinnacle of team play.
Only problem in getting at least there is that game doesn't teach you at any point what boff skills you need to use when playing episodes.
There are also quirks in game that are no where stated as such: that energy weapons benefit greatly from overcapping and reducing energy drain from wep subsystems, that torpedo spreads can't miss and will follow even if target cloaks after torps being fired, that shooting NPC aceton assimilators with energy weapons is not a good idea, etc.
Game expects you to learn those things through trial, error and experimentation and as I see from forums and game, people take personal offense if you tell them something.
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SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
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Seriously though, the game needs better tutorials on how to get at least some basic performance out of your ships. Maybe add a dummy target which lets you test your build and gives you some feedback on how much damage you do. Cryptic also has to stop putting such retarted gear choices on ships which gives new players the wrong idea on how to make a solid build.
And for the record, I wasn't directing my post at you. 10k is a number I see brought up ALL the time. The discussion you two were having about your science ship did give me some ideas on things to change on my build which I'm going to try when I get home.
However, I guess what I was getting at is, I don't think I'm a horrible player (maybe I am). I'm flying a T5-U ship with all MK XIV gear. I've got a full set of starship traits, full set of rep traits, and I'm using only space traits on the regular traits. But yet I'm not meeting what many people seem to consider the bare minimum damage you should be doing. Either I am a horrible player or there's something wrong with that picture.