You can only upgrade a ship so far before its no longer feasible. It's like a PC. I could upgrade this, that and everything else that's in the case, but eventually the TRIBBLE holes, rear slots and vents won't be in the right place for new parts and I'll have to get a new one.
yes, and this is the main reason why certain classes get retired. some soldier on beyond the point were their physical hull or configuration limits upgrades, because they can still be useful in certain roles. excelsior and miranda are perfect examples of this. but by 2410, there isn't some new, standard issue tech new ships are built with, that wouldn't still fit in a galaxy class hull.
the galaxy is still the second largest starfleet ship in 2410, the new guardian is smaller. in the way that the odyssey trumps the galaxy, i think the guardian is intended to trump the sovereign. if a galaxy just had its every 20 year super refit in 2410, it would be just as advanced as any ship built that year. and since nearly everything is smaller then it still, also less powerful then a 2410 galaxy.
You can only upgrade a ship so far before its no longer feasible. It's like a PC. I could upgrade this, that and everything else that's in the case, but eventually the TRIBBLE holes, rear slots and vents won't be in the right place for new parts and I'll have to get a new one.
But how could a Tier 2 ship like the Excelsior be upgraded to Tier 5 and Tier 5-U, when a Tier 4 ship like the Galaxy cannot be upgraded to Tier 6? Especially considering that there was even in the show regular mention of the ship receiving updates and improvements (and the background material suggesting that it was designed for a 100 year lifespan and 20 year grand refit intervals).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
To be fair, it's only because the Galaxy crowd is the loudest.
because look at every other canon ship in the game. they are all at least middle of the road, not the WORST ship of their type, there was literally nothing to complain about. the galaxy is not only the worst cruiser, but no other ship comes close to having so many bad points, wile having no good points, making it the overall worst ship in the game.
Though most have reasonable expectations, there are a few others that are outright deluded and are especially loud (anything better than an Engineer-variant of the Pathfinder's setup with the Hybrid on Sci seat, or expecting a seating arrangement that would technically be too close to the Guardian's or Odyssey's setup for Cryptic's comfort).
Intrepid fans threw a little fit at the initial Pathfinder reveal, but ended up taking it.
The Defiant crowd is also usually tied to the DS9 crowd, and they only make their requests known in a DS9-related thread, but tolerate the Phantom as the current T6 analog (though as discussed before, it's possible to get one in the future as long as it's not Intel; same way it's possible to get a T6 Galaxy as long as it's not Intel).
Sovereign fans have little to complain about aside from no T6 option yet (not to mention, kind-of-sort-of gotten a successor in the Odyssey).
And the Nova/Rhode Island fans are salivating in the hopes that DR switches focus to Kim long enough to star a possible T6 variant and maybe interior/bridge to sell to them (I think it's also 2 for 3 in a possible Bundle like the Galaxy and Defiant; could be wrong).
you act like these galaxy fans have seriously asked for more then a simple universal ENS. sure, we would like a bit more then that, but we would have collectively SHUT UP FOREVER if we had only gotten that. and the treatment the tier 6 intrepid got? thats totally good enough for us for a tier 6 galaxy. we are not the unreasonable ones, we just have gotten NOTHING, so the threads continue.
you act like these galaxy fans have seriously asked for more then a simple universal ENS. sure, we would like a bit more then that, but we would have collectively SHUT UP FOREVER if we had only gotten that. and the treatment the tier 6 intrepid got? thats totally good enough for us for a tier 6 galaxy. we are not the unreasonable ones, we just have gotten NOTHING, so the threads continue.
On the contrary, I'm not disagreeing with you, nor am I implying the thread needs to be closed (though it should have probably been in Fed Shipyards instead). I did state the Galaxy fans were the loudest, and for a valid reason (barring a few delusional ones).
You can go back into many of my previous posts on this topic: I support a T6 Galaxy with an Eng-oriented Pathfinder setup. Again, with an Lt. Uni, you can either double up on Tac, or double up on Sci (assuming one isn't interested in the Lt level Command abilities which would be on the Tac/Hybrid seat) giving it some of that flexibility it needs. And those wanting to make DPS history with the Galaxy can do so with a bit more ease.
I was only responding to the reason why no other ship is held up to the standard you listed, and reasons why other fanbases aren't anywhere as vocal.
You can only upgrade a ship so far before its no longer feasible. It's like a PC. I could upgrade this, that and everything else that's in the case, but eventually the TRIBBLE holes, rear slots and vents won't be in the right place for new parts and I'll have to get a new one.
actually more accurate would be a car. my 1979 chevy C10 truck is a great example. when it left the factory it made a whopping 180hp and handled like a truck. now in 2015 after upgrading and rebuilding the truck by replacing parts it makes 450hp to the rear wheels and can out handle a new corvette
it also cost less then buying a corvette. there is also still room to improve and the tuck is the same age as a galaxiy is to 2410 new in sto
I was only responding to the reason why no other ship is held up to the standard you listed, and reasons why other fanbases aren't anywhere as vocal.
The reason other ships fan's aren't as vocal is because the other hero ships are far more playable. Lets take the Defiant. She has 3 tac ensign stations. Possibilities for those stations are: tac team, faw1, overload 1, torp yield 1, Target subsystem - weapon/shield/engine/aux - 1. It's higher level abilities are even better. The attack patterns, cannon rapid and scatter, higher level faw and overload. You can make some damned efficient and powerful builds without your tac stations all being on permanent useless cooldown.
The Intrepid is the same. She has 3 science ensign stations, but this includes: Sci team, hazard emitters, polarize hull, jam sensors, tss 1 (i think), tractor beam, tachyon beam, and mask energy signature. There are even more high level sci powers - so you can make fun builds and use all your powers without everything being on a constant cooldown.
The Galaxy has Engineering team, epts, eptw, epta, and epte. Four of the five will all go on cooldown the second you use one. Especially if you slot the more powerful and useful higher versions. And let's face it. There aren't that many engineering powers that are that great - even at the higher ranks - so you'll probably slot a more powerful ept anyway.
You can't build a Galaxy without the ensign stations being on semi-permanent useless cooldown. If they added four or five new engineering powers - something so you could vary your build and not have these stations completely useless - I would even agree there. And there are so many possibilities. 'Enhanced Comm Frequencies: Increase the effectiveness of command auras by 50% for 15 seconds - 2 minute cooldown. Subspace Slingshot: Use your ship's warp field to reflect incoming torpedoes and mines. Gravitational anchor: Lock your ship into position using local gravity fields to increase your ship's armor and shield resistance greatly at the cost of defense and movement.
But there are no options - no way to make the three stations on the Galaxy - not useless.
Have you read anything I've posted? I've AGREED many times that it doesn't make sense for Excelsior (love her though I do) and Ambassador to be equal to or better than the Galaxy. This is especially true for Ambassador as it is nothing but a smaller, older, less advanced Galaxy and can be considered to be completely be replaced by said Galaxy.
A case COULD be made for the Excelsior platform finding new life in a specialized role as a lighter, cheaper, tactical cruiser without all the amenities and flexibility of the Galaxy, designed for a combat role. After all, it's surely cheaper to build two Excelsiors than one Galaxy and come out ahead in tactical capability. Of course, I'd expect a new skin to reflect the new, more advanced modern variant with the classic look available only as a Retrofit option in the C-store.
Honestly, that's how I'd handle most of the older ships if I could. If a class makes sense to be in operation today as a main line vessel, make a new ship with modern skin / design elements and sell a Retrofit skin for those who want to kick it old school.
Sadly, I don't think Cryptic puts a lot of thought into what ships should serve what role and use case in a realistically run Fleet. They'd rather crank out new designs and forget them in a few months, with a liberal sprinkling of lockbox ships in between to keep the treadmill going.
so why bring it up? clearly, from an in game perspective, debating whether a ship should be top tier or not is irreverent, they basically all are regardless of how much sense it makes.
even outside game logic, if any ship could run with top of the line 50 years later thanks to extensive refits, its the galaxy!
so why would you even argue it couldn't be in the same league as some of the newer cryptic designs? if an argument has been debunked this many times, you shouldn't keep using it.
the excelsior was a tactical dead end as soon as phaser arrays were invented in the 2320s. not only that, its durability seems up to 23rd century standers, even the ones built decades after its introduction, refits wont be able to fix that. it should be no surprise that at its best possible, it could only match a pure combat cutting edge corvette, when it would still rate, at least displacement wise, as a heavy cruiser.
I don't know - I have to say, I sort of hope that this isn't the case - they don't need EVERY canon character, who we saw an alternate future for, to actually wind up living almost the exact same life as they were seen to have in their alternate future.
Granted, there are a few differences, but Worf has wound up as an Ambassador, estranged from Starfleet just as he did in 'All Good Things' and Harry Kim has wound up as Captain of the USS Rhode Island, just as he did in 'Endgame'. As I said, I hope that they don't continue this trend - they seem to have missed the point of it being an 'alternate' timeline.
There is scientific theory that says that only so many alternate timelines that can exist. While Star Trek has shown upwards of 40,000+ in Parallels, it should be noted that ALL that we saw there showed Enterprise-Ds with the crew we know and love however shuffled.
And thanks to JJ, we know that even a massive disruption of the timeline still resulted in the TOS crew getting together, and even earlier.
Considering his omniscience, Q having the most generally accurate future does make sense.
From the writer's perspective, these future timelines have the fascinating opportunity to show us our heroes after the end. Harry Kim for instance, we've seen two alternate futures of his. In the first Kim got home, but Voyager didn't. In this timeless timeline, he became a bum, obsessed with saving Voyager and didn't become a Captain. But in the Endgame original timeline Voyager did get home and he became a Captain of the Rhode Island. In STO's Prime Timeline, which is technically the alternate continuity to Endgame Voyager got home, and in the 25th century, Harry Kim became Captain of the Rhode Island.
It's not an egregious departure as Voyager home safe and sound means Kim continues his Starfleet career and becomes a Captain. In Timeless, we saw Geordi in command of the Challenger. There's nothing that suggests that he would gain or lose that command based on anything that happened to Voyager. As Chief Engineer of the Flagship, he has the fast track to a command of his own, and the Galaxy class is the one he knows best.
Keep in mind that some butterfly effects can cause chaotic damage across reality. Some just TRIBBLE up one person's life. The wave doesn't always reach the other side of the ocean.
The existance of the Dreadnaught Cruiser in STO is really a problem. From the episode's dialogue we can deduct that the "Galaxy-X" was not a class of ships-of-the-line in the portrayed future but was really a unique refit specifically made for the Ent-D personally supervised by Admiral Riker. With the Ent-D being destroyed there is no reason for the "Dreadnaught Cruiser" to exist. Back in the days when this ship was a reward for bringing in new subscribers that was not a problem as it was a gimmick for a few players to have. When STOs continuity made it a regular class of ships though it became a continuity problem.
I disagree. Riker only said he managed to keep her from getting decommissioned. He didn't say anything about her being uniquely upgraded. He said that with an Admiral's clout he was able to select her as his flagship.
The three nacelle dreadnaught is an old concept, with a design lineage.
If we assume it was still deployed around the 2390s like All Good Things, then what we see is Starfleet increasing the tactical capability of one of its most powerful cruisers in an increasingly dangerous environment.
You can only upgrade a ship so far before its no longer feasible. It's like a PC. I could upgrade this, that and everything else that's in the case, but eventually the TRIBBLE holes, rear slots and vents won't be in the right place for new parts and I'll have to get a new one.
Did your computer come with 35% of its usable internal volume unused and marked for future expansion? And what about a computer case released by the same manufacturer ten years later with the same design updated?
Like I said earlier, the last Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier built in 2003 was radically different from the First built in 1975. It's not even made of the same kind of steel.
It's not just building one ship and continuously upgrading it. They're building newer ones with updated technology and updated modularity. A huge hull like that has lots of room for expansion.
Actually STO itself completely throws that out the window. This is from the zen store.
After Starfleet starships were converted to a modular design, a group from the Starfleet Corps of Engineers working at Utopia Planitia wondered if vessels from the Federation's past could be constructed in this manner. Working with Federation historian Geoffrey Pacelli, the SCE officers chose the famed NX Class for reconstruction. The NX Class Starship Replica sports the classic look of Earth's starships from the 22nd century, but has been updated with modern technology to meet current Starfleet specifications
Ergo - an NX can be built to top end gear - so anything else can be too.
Which considering the background information for the Galaxy is almost redundant.
Talking about upgrading an NX class, the NX class is bigger than the Defiant. Anything that fits in a Defiant should be able to easily fit into an NX.
yes, and this is the main reason why certain classes get retired. some soldier on beyond the point were their physical hull or configuration limits upgrades, because they can still be useful in certain roles. excelsior and miranda are perfect examples of this. but by 2410, there isn't some new, standard issue tech new ships are built with, that wouldn't still fit in a galaxy class hull.
the galaxy is still the second largest starfleet ship in 2410, the new guardian is smaller. in the way that the odyssey trumps the galaxy, i think the guardian is intended to trump the sovereign. if a galaxy just had its every 20 year super refit in 2410, it would be just as advanced as any ship built that year. and since nearly everything is smaller then it still, also less powerful then a 2410 galaxy.
True.
And the same is true of the Sovereign. Only 40 years old, Sovereigns should be looking at their second big 20 year upgrade.
The only things that should limit such modularity is things where the spaceframe itself is wrong. For instance Galaxy classes should be using extended Quantum Slipstreams and landing on planets. If the Dauntless is the optimal shape for Slipstream drive then the Galaxy may be the furthest thing from it. And let's be honest you can't land that thing.
Aside from that, from an external configuration and internal space standpoint, there's nothing wrong with the thing.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The Connie/ Enterprise class heavy cruiser T-2
8- FH-11 phasers
3 - FP-4 photon torpedos
Excelsior mk-II Fleet T-5u
10 - FH-11 phasers
6 - FP-4 photons
According to the creater of star trek the connie is 80% as powerful as a Excelsior in all respects including shields and hull ..............except warp for speed
Cryptic has the Connie as 20% of a Excelsior
The Galaxy got the same shaft from cryptic
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I actually knew someone who had this old IBM laptop from the year of the flood but yet when he started it up it had a 1080p screen and was setup with the latest Mac OS.
Sooooooooo in the future this couldn't be done with a ship???
WTH was the TMP Connie refit then???????
You can do that, but the cooling won't be as efficient, so it won't quite be making full use of the new parts. The new ships are built specially to maximise efficiency of parts. After all, if it were just a case of upgrading, Starfleet would still be flying NX class ships, and wouldn't have bothered with all these new (And expensive) designs.
Ultimately though, the Galaxy is what it is, as the rights holders say so, and their word is final. Don't like it? Take it up with them.
(On the subject of computer cases, a two second yahoo search revealed a computer shaped like a shuttle from the Enterprise-D. So I guess a Galaxy(/ies shuttle) CAN be upgraded)!
The Connie/ Enterprise class heavy cruiser T-2
8- FH-11 phasers
3 - FP-4 photon torpedos
Excelsior mk-II Fleet T-5u
10 - FH-11 phasers
6 - FP-4 photons
According to the creater of star trek the connie is 80% as powerful as a Excelsior in all respects including shields and hull ..............except warp for speed
Cryptic has the Connie as 20% of a Excelsior
The Galaxy got the same shaft from cryptic
the connie refit has 6 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. its also lacking an aft torpedo launcher, just 2 fore launchers. that assembly on its neck actually has the warp core running through it, and the back of it contains the primary deuterium tanks as well. seriously what they hell were they smoking when they set up the packaging on the connie. even with 23rd century weapons, a good torp strike pretty much anywhere on the neck wouldn't only cripple the ship, but breach the core!
the excelsior has 10 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. also 4 forward torp launchers, 2 aft. main engineering and the warp core is also in the excelsior's neck, but thats also the thickest part of the ship, and appears to have some sort of layered armor on it or something?
ya thats actually quite a bit more weapons, any target in the front 270 or so fireing arc of an excelsior would have 2 different duel banks pointed on it, wile vs the connie, it would only have one. not to mention twice the forward torp launcher capacity, at least.
and shear size? the excelsior is 4 times the volume of the connie. the excelsior was a monster step forward in its day, if you think about it, its really no surprise you stopped seeing connies all together.
next to trying to canon accurately rate the galaxy class, trying to figure out late 23rd century ship logic is my second favorite bit of trek to ponder. this is what i reason so far.
in 2345, the constitution was a right proper heavy cruiser, the most capable thing around at just about everything. in the late 2360s though, it was starting to get a bit antiquated, and its likely a replacement was drawn up, but due to complications, it just didn't materialize. with an aged fleet, and a stalled out replacement, my guess is that they combined the 2. just about took apart the constitution class, and put it back together with the new parts bin that had been partly developed for the replacement.
the result was a refreshed connie, but a ship that was no significant size increase over its predecessor. if you think about it, thats rather odd, why i figure there was an actual larger replacement that just didn't work out for whatever reason.
and in 2370, the connie was good enough. though they didn't waste any time developing a replacement this time, and it would be the size of a ship that should have replaced the proposed larger, stalled out constitution replacement that didn't happen. thats the excelsior of course, but mission creep got the better of that project and almost caused it totally fail as well, that whole transwarp nonsense. now that, they ether got working, and it simply became normal warp, and the reason for the updated warp scale, or they ripped it all out and put a top of the line conventional warp drive in it, you can pretty much pick your favorite explanation for that one. ether way, it was 2390 at the earliest before it was launched.
out of the constitution refit parts bin, several kit bashes were created. we can at least confirm the miranda, but there were probably 1 or 2 saucer+nacelle destroyers types too. the miranda in particular would have been an incredibly useful design, it had the same basic armament as a connie, and in addition 2 aft torp tubes, and some heavier phasers on the role bar too. it was probably ideal for any short range mission, its superior armaments it was probably a front line boarder patrol ship, had large useable space in the back section that was probably quite modular for mission specific equipment or just plain cargo hauling. pretty much any mission within federation space it was from the factory perfect for.
now the constitution refit, it wasn't like that at all. it was an explorer, purpose built for that mission profile. saucer to house crew and science lab, very very tall warp core, 15 decks high, that i theorize is ideal for long duration warp travel, a secondary hull housing LARGE amounts of extended mission related cargo and fuel, an pretty huge arboretum that probably grew the crew a lot of fresh food, a very powerful and large main deflector. it was meant to be outside federation territory, for years.
by the late 2380, i imagine the connie started to feel pretty undersized for the task, the federation's main explorer hadn't grown significantly for 40 years. with the boundaries of unexplored space pushed further and further out, it surly stopped being a large enough ship for the job. seems like the perfect time for a MUCH larger ship to be launched, to take over. normally in this situation, the 'replaced' ship would have its mission profile downgraded, but in the connies case, the miranda exists, essentially custom built to be perfect for that downgraded role. there wasn't really anything for the connie to do, and even refit to supplement mirandas, it couldn't have had as much useable, modular space, or be as heavily armed. it was also overbuilt for the role too, to much warp core, to much navigation deflector, to much crew quarters and science labs, those take a lot of room and were redundant.
so when the enterprise A was to be decommissioned in 2393 at the end of ST6, i think it was literally being decommissioned. it, and its class were basically done, there was probably a whole mess of excelsior being launched, and a whole mess of constitutions finishing tours of duty at that time.
thats why the connie disappeared, but the miranda and excelsior never did. there was always work for the mirandas to perform, and as the excelsior got its role downgrades over and over, there was still plenty of use for it. for ether, that does not include intergalactic war, but you make due with what you got.
also, i think the constellation class is a result of a lot of constitutions taking up space in scrap yards. the constitution looks like a 2 constitution class stuck together, with the 2 secondary hull scraped, and rebuilt to wrap around the saucer. the result was a ship more then twice the size of a connie, big enough to still be a pretty useful explorer, its even got 4 nacelles, and a ton of cargo space judging by all the doors on it it. thats why you practically never see any constitutions, they all got frankenstein'ed into constellations.
except like 1, that was seen at wolf 359. this ship was most likely an academy trainer, would be perfect for the job, seemed to be all the way back in the 2380s too. if a borg cube is heading for earth, what ship DON'T you throw in the path of it?
this is why i in particular probably facepalm harder then anyone else when i hear wheres the tier 5 connie? the class didn't even survive into the 24th century, and you want an end game version in the 25th century?
the connie refit has 6 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. its also lacking an aft torpedo launcher, just 2 fore launchers. that assembly on its neck actually has the warp core running through it, and the back of it contains the primary deuterium tanks as well. seriously what they hell were they smoking when they set up the packaging on the connie. even with 23rd century weapons, a good torp strike pretty much anywhere on the neck wouldn't only cripple the ship, but breach the core!
I don't know your source
My source is the FASA starship construction manual and ship recogination manual which was approved by gene roddenbury which was published before the movie launch of the excelsior
Makes it hard canon
I can give the size and weights of each ship as well
my post is correct according to the creator of star trek
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
My source is the FASA starship construction manual and ship recogination manual which was approved by gene roddenbury which was published before the movie launch of the excelsior
Makes it hard canon
I can give the size and weights of each ship as well
my post is correct according to the creator of star trek
the first thing you should do is not think of roddenbury as god, after the original series, he was not a credit to the francise.
secondly, i double checked the filming models and what i listed are the exact weapons banks they have. so ya.
The existance of the Dreadnaught Cruiser in STO is really a problem. From the episode's dialogue we can deduct that the "Galaxy-X" was not a class of ships-of-the-line in the portrayed future but was really a unique refit specifically made for the Ent-D personally supervised by Admiral Riker. With the Ent-D being destroyed there is no reason for the "Dreadnaught Cruiser" to exist. Back in the days when this ship was a reward for bringing in new subscribers that was not a problem as it was a gimmick for a few players to have. When STOs continuity made it a regular class of ships though it became a continuity problem.
I WA referring to things like where people ended up. The ship being destroyed later just means we say a variant future. No reason harry Kim cans be captain of the road island. Or worf being an ambassador.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Ultimately though, the Galaxy is what it is, as the rights holders say so, and their word is final. Don't like it? Take it up with them.
(On the subject of computer cases, a two second yahoo search revealed a computer shaped like a shuttle from the Enterprise-D. So I guess a Galaxy(/ies shuttle) CAN be upgraded)!
But that's not the case.
It's brought up frequently and accurately that CBS has vetoed the idea of an endgame Constitution class. And rightfully so. But they have not made any such statements on the Galaxy. The layout and outfitting of the Galaxy class is solely Cryptic's decision and one we will continue to disagree with in its current state.
the connie refit has 6 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. its also lacking an aft torpedo launcher, just 2 fore launchers. that assembly on its neck actually has the warp core running through it, and the back of it contains the primary deuterium tanks as well. seriously what they hell were they smoking when they set up the packaging on the connie. even with 23rd century weapons, a good torp strike pretty much anywhere on the neck wouldn't only cripple the ship, but breach the core!
There is a functional reason that the Warp Core has a stack running through the neck of the ship.
In the Constitution Refit configuration, the Warp Core is directly connected to the Impulse Engines and supplements it. Part of the same radical engine redesign that led to the phasers being powered directly by the warp core.
As for the vulnerability, don't underestimate the durability of the Constitution. Look at the poundings the ship took in combat against Khan and Chang. Khan was carving up the Torpedo room and Main Engineering with phaser strikes completely unshielded. No core breach. For an example of shielded strikes the Battle of Khitomer showed that the ship could take direct torpedo strikes without suffering a core breach.
Tough little ship.
and shear size? the excelsior is 4 times the volume of the connie. the excelsior was a monster step forward in its day, if you think about it, its really no surprise you stopped seeing connies all together.
"By God that's a big ship."
next to trying to canon accurately rate the galaxy class, trying to figure out late 23rd century ship logic is my second favorite bit of trek to ponder. this is what i reason so far.
-snip-
Mine too.
The way I see it the Constitution retrofit project was the result of the massive success of the Constitution class. And the information from Enterprise.
Specifically I'm talking about the encounter with the Kelvans, where they turned the warp drive up to 14 (OCU). That's a massive boost in warp travel speed.
So the Corps of Engineers gets this information and they say...if Enterprise can do it, then we can take this to the next level. I'd say that two new projects were born. First the Excelsior project started out, with them not even being aware of Transwarp. I think Transwarp is something they discovered during the course of their research.
In the meantime they figured out how to duplicate what the Kelvans had done, and then applied that to starship design. They knew the Connie could achieve it, so they started there. Then there's the fact that the Enterprise and her sisters had been out for five years, and were 25 years old. The upgrades they had received were minor compared to what was now available, but they weren't modular, so upgrades were not simple. But with the engine refit a golden opportunity. Strip her down,rebuild her cram every bit of tech into her that they could. "And they probably redesigned the whole sickbay too, I know engineers they love to change things". So we get the Constitution Retrofit. Using a proven spaceframe to field the absolute latest technology and cutting edge warp field theory, while the next generation planning began. I'd say when you look at the Galaxy's twenty year gestation, fifteen years for the Excelsior is more than reasonable.
As for the Excelsior and the Transwarp project I'm of two minds about it.
What I've come to is, the Excelsior succeeded and failed at its ultimate objective.
With the Kelvans they managed to get the Enterprise up to warp 14. That's a bit over warp 9.8 on the MCU the TNG warp scale. I think they got what they were looking for with speed, but found out that there was something even faster, Transwarp. I've heard it said the Refit Connie had a top speed of warp 8 and a top speed of warp 12 on the old scale. I'd say the Excelsior was probably even faster...but then they discovered REAL Transwarp, and the Excelsior was designed to address that. By the time of the 24th century when the Constitutions and the older ships were phased out, the warp scale was redesigned to reflect the new knowledge, with warp 10 being the Transwarp barrier as well as "infinite speed" (a nice reversal of the infinite energy usage needed to travel at light speed in a Newtonian manner).
To that end, the Excelsior is bigger and structurally tougher to facilitate higher hull stresses, and a larger more powerful warp core in addition to the other latest tech a Starfleet ship needs.
so when the enterprise A was to be decommissioned in 2393 at the end of ST6, i think it was literally being decommissioned. it, and its class were basically done, there was probably a whole mess of excelsior being launched, and a whole mess of constitutions finishing tours of duty at that time.
Agreed, but also for a non-modular ship at that size, and with that hull configuration, with an absolute limit on speed, the Constitution was running up on 50 years old by the time of Undiscovered Country. With the Excelsior coming out the cost ratio has now shifted. It's much more resource effective to build a new Excelsior class, than it is to do a second full Retrofit cycle on the Constitution. Upgrading them before when the Excelsior or any other more advanced starship was just a twinkle in the ASDB's eye then yeah knock yourself out. But now that the next generation is ready, let the Connie rest.
That said...I wish the Hathaway and the Stargazer had been Constitutions as originally envisioned. Just to see the Galaxy next to a Connie.
That would mean that the Constitution had survived into at least the 2330s of course, which isn't outlandish if you consider Picard called it a run down, overworked, underpowered, vessel always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. Which is what one would expect of a hundred year old starship.
thats why the connie disappeared, but the miranda and excelsior never did. there was always work for the mirandas to perform, and as the excelsior got its role downgrades over and over, there was still plenty of use for it. for ether, that does not include intergalactic war, but you make due with what you got.
also, i think the constellation class is a result of a lot of constitutions taking up space in scrap yards. the constitution looks like a 2 constitution class stuck together, with the 2 secondary hull scraped, and rebuilt to wrap around the saucer. the result was a ship more then twice the size of a connie, big enough to still be a pretty useful explorer, its even got 4 nacelles, and a ton of cargo space judging by all the doors on it it. thats why you practically never see any constitutions, they all got frankenstein'ed into constellations.
I disagree with that. The Constellation's saucer is a lot different than the Connie. It was probably another warp engine experiment with her four nacelles. She seems to be a predecessor to the Akira to me, with the shuttlebay right in the middle of the saucer.
except like 1, that was seen at wolf 359. this ship was most likely an academy trainer, would be perfect for the job, seemed to be all the way back in the 2380s too. if a borg cube is heading for earth, what ship DON'T you throw in the path of it?
Considering the Constitution class' exalted history, there's no way they wouldn't have. You could easily get misty at the Captain's speech, talking about how many times that class of ship had saved the Earth, and how they wouldn't abandon their post with Earth in danger, no matter the cost.
this is why i in particular probably facepalm harder then anyone else when i hear wheres the tier 5 connie? the class didn't even survive into the 24th century, and you want an end game version in the 25th century?
"She's done her bit for King and Country."
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
the connie refit has 6 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. its also lacking an aft torpedo launcher, just 2 fore launchers. that assembly on its neck actually has the warp core running through it, and the back of it contains the primary deuterium tanks as well. seriously what they hell were they smoking when they set up the packaging on the connie. even with 23rd century weapons, a good torp strike pretty much anywhere on the neck wouldn't only cripple the ship, but breach the core!
I don't know your source
My source is the FASA starship construction manual and ship recogination manual which was approved by gene roddenbury which was published before the movie launch of the excelsior
Makes it hard canon
I can give the size and weights of each ship as well
my post is correct according to the creator of star trek
FASA is not canon. in fact they lost the license do to going to far out of canon when it came to the TNG era stuff. the tech manual for the refit enteprise also agrees with drunk.
but you do not need a tech manual when you can physically count the number of banks and torpedo tubes
FASA is not canon. in fact they lost the license do to going to far out of canon when it came to the TNG era stuff. the tech manual for the refit enteprise also agrees with drunk.
but you do not need a tech manual when you can physically count the number of banks and torpedo tubes
You are wrong sir FASA is Hard Canon it is the last word
The Officers manual cost Fasa its lisence and it was published years after ther manuals I quoted were because it was published without even consulting Gene roddenbury which was in their contract to do so
What I refered too is Hard Canon approved by the creator himself and it is the last word on the ships in it
All 3 marks of the constitution are in it from TOS
All 3 marks of the Enterprise is in it from the Movies
both marks of the Excelsior
Some of the Fed starships in Starfleet command were also based on it as well Especially the constitution and enterprise
Another manual published after Genes death is no more canon than the TV series Enterprise is
or JJ Abrams movies are which are both rubbish as far a primeverse matters
If someone from CBS makes a manual tomorrow with the Enterprise using polarons it will be canon in his trek universe Not Primeverse And it will never replace gene roddenburys established Hard canon.
You cannot rewrite history..History has already been made
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
next you will say the horribly inaccurate maps in FASA are canon as well
what was shown on the shows trumps any "hard canon" BS gene said. the MSD displays, the movies, the show, and the official tech manual for the enterprise refit that came out in 1987 and signed off by gene any way says there is no rear torpedo launcher never ways.
and gene rewrote history ALL THE TIME. with straight up saying episodes where not "canon". he changed his canon every other day and depending on what mood he was in.
next you will say the horribly inaccurate maps in FASA are canon as well
what was shown on the shows trumps any "hard canon" BS gene said. the MSD displays, the movies, the show, and the official tech manual for the enterprise refit that came out in 1987 and signed off by gene any way says there is no rear torpedo launcher never ways.
and gene rewrote history ALL THE TIME. with straight up saying episodes where not "canon". he changed his canon every other day and depending on what mood he was in.
Of course Gene rewrote his own creation...........It belonged to him you know......He owned it......It was his property............It evolved .. people that own things can do what they wish with it
You cant rewrite it
I cant
Nobody else can either
As far as the maps went there wernt ment to be accurate.................They were 2D !~ and made for a RPG..They were on paper not a PC 3D screen with the hubble telescope as a source
just because someone ...anyone made a show/movie after the mans death doesn't let that movie or show change what Gene made
Next thing you say the enterprise from JJ abhrams is real canon and the enterprise from the wrath of Kahn isn't, or perhaps you prefer Archers ship as the real enterprise and not Genes version
My entire debate is this in a nut shell
No one, no show , no movie, no manual , can rewrite what Gene made
his material is Hard canon and that means no one can undo it , everything else is canon or soft canon or simply garbage
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
It's brought up frequently and accurately that CBS has vetoed the idea of an endgame Constitution class. And rightfully so. But they have not made any such statements on the Galaxy. The layout and outfitting of the Galaxy class is solely Cryptic's decision and one we will continue to disagree with in its current state.
That they've revealed. Besides, maybe I'm wrong. If you were to write to CBS with your complaint, who knows? Maybe they'll get in touch with Cryptic and have a quiet grumble, and next thing you know the Galaxy may sprout some teeth! (More likely they'll write you off as a loon and toss your mail, but that's the risk you'd have to take).
Of course Gene rewrote his own creation...........It belonged to him you know......He owned it......It was his property............It evolved .. people that own things can do what they wish with it
He didn't own it though. He created it and sold it. Once he sold it, it was no longer his. He was offered the opportunity to buy back the rights at one stage, but he either couldn't or wouldn't pay.
That they've revealed. Besides, maybe I'm wrong. If you were to write to CBS with your complaint, who knows? Maybe they'll get in touch with Cryptic and have a quiet grumble, and next thing you know the Galaxy may sprout some teeth! (More likely they'll write you off as a loon and toss your mail, but that's the risk you'd have to take).
Umm...no.
There already are several endgame Galaxy variants. There no Constitution classes. As many people have asked Cryptic would've put them in by now, but they are barred from doing so. That's not conjecture.
As to why Cryptic has yet to actually apply the boundless feedback they've received on improving the Galaxy...I have no idea.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
As to why Cryptic has yet to actually apply the boundless feedback they've received on improving the Galaxy...I have no idea.
That's what I'm saying. Its entirely within the realms of possibility that Cryptic have been told that they can have a Tier 5 Galaxy in game, but it can't be as good as those ships that come after. Similar argument as the Constitution.
That's what I'm saying. Its entirely within the realms of possibility that Cryptic have been told that they can have a Tier 5 Galaxy in game, but it can't be as good as those ships that come after. Similar argument as the Constitution.
Yeah, well, see, that's the thing: Nobody (reasonable) has actually asked for the GCS to be an ubership. We're asking for something middle-of-the-road, albeit we'd prefer something better than the even older Ambassador and Excelsior, either of which is far more practical to use in the current meta.
Fun fact: The T5 D'deridex was originally going to have the same layout as the Gal-R (you'll notice the T4 D'D is a clone of the T4 GCS). It was changed to what we have now because the layout is terrible and the Tribble testers demanded something better.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's what I'm saying. Its entirely within the realms of possibility that Cryptic have been told that they can have a Tier 5 Galaxy in game, but it can't be as good as those ships that come after. Similar argument as the Constitution.
I don't believe that CBS is micro managing on that level. That would require a level of understanding of the game that surpasses what most people seem to think the Devs have.
There's also the fact that the Galaxy class is technically available for endgame.
You have two varieties of Fleet Tier 5-U Galaxy Class available. That's clearly not the same restriction as the Constitution is under.
We're just asking that it be a little more capable and representative of what was seen in the show.
Yeah, well, see, that's the thing: Nobody (reasonable) has actually asked for the GCS to be an ubership. We're asking for something middle-of-the-road, albeit we'd prefer something better than the even older Ambassador and Excelsior, either of which is far more practical to use in the current meta.
Fun fact: The T5 D'deridex was originally going to have the same layout as the Gal-R (you'll notice the T4 D'D is a clone of the T4 GCS). It was changed to what we have now because the layout is terrible and the Tribble testers demanded something better.
This. Especially as the ships are peers it's rather sad that they couldn't give the GCS the nod too.
Correct. The original Enterprise Refit did not possess a rear torpedo tube, the replacement Enterprise-A did. So did all others in the Enterprise class of new ships based on the Refit. This information comes from Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.
Where on the model is that exactly?
Torpedo tubes aren't like phasers and definitely not in the TOS and TMP era. The main torpedo launcher is a noticeable assembly. As many years as I've been looking at her in V and VI, I never noticed aft torpedoes.
It's been a long time since I read and owned that book, but I do believe something was said about modular designs in there. The new platform Constitutions (Enterprise class) were not nearly as old and decrepit as some people seem to think. All of them were made AFTER Kirk's return from the original 5 Year Mission and none but the original 1701 were built on an original Constitution platform. Every one of the the original Constitution class but Enterprise herself were destroyed in duty, and after the Refit all new ships based on the Refit design were ordered and built.
All the other original thirteen Constitutions being destroyed I haven't heard, though any constructed after 2270 being by default retrofit versions I completely understand, that's just logical.
I remember being shocked at the stupid plot point about bringing back the E-A to be decommissioned in what was it ST6? At the time the ship was only 5 years old! She was a freshly built ship that had not even been assigned her first captain and crew when she was renamed Enterprise and handed to Kirk. Someone clearly forgot that plot point about all the original Constitutions being destroyed and all other ships based on the Refit configuration being all new.
She was launched 2286. She was seven years old.
In that case I don't think she was retired because of the age of the platform.
USS Enterprise at that point was a name synonymous and associated exclusively with a very specific crew. Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott, Sulu, Chekov, Uhura. These officers and the ship and the class that they made famous...they were all retiring. Uhura was going to teach at the academy, Sulu had already gotten his own command, Scott was retiring to Norpin colony, Spock was moving on to diplomacy, and Kirk...he didn't know what he was going to do with himself.
And just as importantly, this was the time to move the new generation in. Kirk had ushered in a new age of peace, the Enterprise had one more final fight...and the name Enterprise....
"Captain's log, stardate 9529.1. This is the final cruise of the starship Enterprise under my command. This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue the voyages we have begun and journey to all the undiscovered countries, boldly going where no manwhere no onehas gone before."
With Excelsior production ramping up, it was a good time to pass the torch.
I still think she'd be perfect as a rear-line pure science vessel, stripped of most of her weapons and used as long term placement mobile science stations within safe patrolled territory. A fitting and dignified duty for the grand old lass.
I think Captain Archer would be quite opposed to stripping the ship of her weapons. Besides doing that isn't necessary to increase her science capability. The fact of the matter that gets lost in a lot of this conversation about the size of hulls and what you can put in them is that as the great march of technology goes on, the size of things gets smaller. That long term science station role you're talking about is currently occupied by the Nova class as ship half its size. While both ships have a max speed of Warp 8, the warp scale was changed to the point that the Nova's warp 8 is twice as fast as the Constitution's warp 8.
I like the idea that Constitutions are currently employed as Academy Training vessels. The ships are used to raise the next generation, and the cadets get the history of serving on one of Starfleet's most storied classes.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
You are wrong sir FASA is Hard Canon it is the last word
The Officers manual cost Fasa its lisence and it was published years after ther manuals I quoted were because it was published without even consulting Gene roddenbury which was in their contract to do so
What I refered too is Hard Canon approved by the creator himself and it is the last word on the ships in it
All 3 marks of the constitution are in it from TOS
All 3 marks of the Enterprise is in it from the Movies
both marks of the Excelsior
Some of the Fed starships in Starfleet command were also based on it as well Especially the constitution and enterprise
Another manual published after Genes death is no more canon than the TV series Enterprise is
or JJ Abrams movies are which are both rubbish as far a primeverse matters
If someone from CBS makes a manual tomorrow with the Enterprise using polarons it will be canon in his trek universe Not Primeverse And it will never replace gene roddenburys established Hard canon.
You cannot rewrite history..History has already been made
Correct. The original Enterprise Refit did not possess a rear torpedo tube, the replacement Enterprise-A did. So did all others in the Enterprise class of new ships based on the Refit. This information comes from Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.
It's been a long time since I read and owned that book, but I do believe something was said about modular designs in there. The new platform Constitutions (Enterprise class) were not nearly as old and decrepit as some people seem to think. All of them were made AFTER Kirk's return from the original 5 Year Mission and none but the original 1701 were built on an original Constitution platform. Every one of the the original Constitution class but Enterprise herself were destroyed in duty, and after the Refit all new ships based on the Refit design were ordered and built.
I remember being shocked at the stupid plot point about bringing back the E-A to be decommissioned in what was it ST6? At the time the ship was only 5 years old! She was a freshly built ship that had not even been assigned her first captain and crew when she was renamed Enterprise and handed to Kirk. Someone clearly forgot that plot point about all the original Constitutions being destroyed and all other ships based on the Refit configuration being all new.
I still think she'd be perfect as a rear-line pure science vessel, stripped of most of her weapons and used as long term placement mobile science stations within safe patrolled territory. A fitting and dignified duty for the grand old lass.
no this is one of the few things i agree with gene on only one refit was built form the keel up the USS Ti-Ho the first transwarp test bed. said so in the same manual you mention mr. scott's guid which i own and signed by james doohan him self great guy glad i got to meet him. any way gene him self and the same book mentions the A use to be the USS Yorktown the TNG manual suggest the same thing.
and a thumbed through the book again and found nothing about a rear torpedo launcher there is a tractor beam emitter in the aft section of the ship
any way gene him self and the same book mentions the A use to be the USS Yorktown the TNG manual suggest the same thing.
The newer Enterprise manual also explicitly states that the Enterprise-A was originally the Yorktown. Anyone who doesn't have it can preview it for free at Amazon. Just search for Yorktown.
In another thread, someone complained about the Galaxy class in game being a "gimped Titanic" and wanted a better one.
The galaxy is a museum piece on this version of STO...IT is a Titanic and does not belong here at this stage of the game...come back 5 years earlier and a different story :cool:
The galaxy is a museum piece on this version of STO...IT is a Titanic and does not belong here at this stage of the game...come back 5 years earlier and a different story :cool:
By this logic - the Excelsior, Constellation, Nebula, Ambassador, Vorcha, D'Deridex, Galor, and Marauder are all 'gimped museum pieces' and should be discarded immediately. The Negh'var, Intrepid, Sovereign, and Scimitar are 'aging rust buckets assigned only to training cruises and milk runs.
Comments
yes, and this is the main reason why certain classes get retired. some soldier on beyond the point were their physical hull or configuration limits upgrades, because they can still be useful in certain roles. excelsior and miranda are perfect examples of this. but by 2410, there isn't some new, standard issue tech new ships are built with, that wouldn't still fit in a galaxy class hull.
the galaxy is still the second largest starfleet ship in 2410, the new guardian is smaller. in the way that the odyssey trumps the galaxy, i think the guardian is intended to trump the sovereign. if a galaxy just had its every 20 year super refit in 2410, it would be just as advanced as any ship built that year. and since nearly everything is smaller then it still, also less powerful then a 2410 galaxy.
But how could a Tier 2 ship like the Excelsior be upgraded to Tier 5 and Tier 5-U, when a Tier 4 ship like the Galaxy cannot be upgraded to Tier 6? Especially considering that there was even in the show regular mention of the ship receiving updates and improvements (and the background material suggesting that it was designed for a 100 year lifespan and 20 year grand refit intervals).
because look at every other canon ship in the game. they are all at least middle of the road, not the WORST ship of their type, there was literally nothing to complain about. the galaxy is not only the worst cruiser, but no other ship comes close to having so many bad points, wile having no good points, making it the overall worst ship in the game.
you act like these galaxy fans have seriously asked for more then a simple universal ENS. sure, we would like a bit more then that, but we would have collectively SHUT UP FOREVER if we had only gotten that. and the treatment the tier 6 intrepid got? thats totally good enough for us for a tier 6 galaxy. we are not the unreasonable ones, we just have gotten NOTHING, so the threads continue.
You can go back into many of my previous posts on this topic: I support a T6 Galaxy with an Eng-oriented Pathfinder setup. Again, with an Lt. Uni, you can either double up on Tac, or double up on Sci (assuming one isn't interested in the Lt level Command abilities which would be on the Tac/Hybrid seat) giving it some of that flexibility it needs. And those wanting to make DPS history with the Galaxy can do so with a bit more ease.
I was only responding to the reason why no other ship is held up to the standard you listed, and reasons why other fanbases aren't anywhere as vocal.
actually more accurate would be a car. my 1979 chevy C10 truck is a great example. when it left the factory it made a whopping 180hp and handled like a truck. now in 2015 after upgrading and rebuilding the truck by replacing parts it makes 450hp to the rear wheels and can out handle a new corvette
it also cost less then buying a corvette. there is also still room to improve and the tuck is the same age as a galaxiy is to 2410 new in sto
The reason other ships fan's aren't as vocal is because the other hero ships are far more playable. Lets take the Defiant. She has 3 tac ensign stations. Possibilities for those stations are: tac team, faw1, overload 1, torp yield 1, Target subsystem - weapon/shield/engine/aux - 1. It's higher level abilities are even better. The attack patterns, cannon rapid and scatter, higher level faw and overload. You can make some damned efficient and powerful builds without your tac stations all being on permanent useless cooldown.
The Intrepid is the same. She has 3 science ensign stations, but this includes: Sci team, hazard emitters, polarize hull, jam sensors, tss 1 (i think), tractor beam, tachyon beam, and mask energy signature. There are even more high level sci powers - so you can make fun builds and use all your powers without everything being on a constant cooldown.
The Galaxy has Engineering team, epts, eptw, epta, and epte. Four of the five will all go on cooldown the second you use one. Especially if you slot the more powerful and useful higher versions. And let's face it. There aren't that many engineering powers that are that great - even at the higher ranks - so you'll probably slot a more powerful ept anyway.
You can't build a Galaxy without the ensign stations being on semi-permanent useless cooldown. If they added four or five new engineering powers - something so you could vary your build and not have these stations completely useless - I would even agree there. And there are so many possibilities. 'Enhanced Comm Frequencies: Increase the effectiveness of command auras by 50% for 15 seconds - 2 minute cooldown. Subspace Slingshot: Use your ship's warp field to reflect incoming torpedoes and mines. Gravitational anchor: Lock your ship into position using local gravity fields to increase your ship's armor and shield resistance greatly at the cost of defense and movement.
But there are no options - no way to make the three stations on the Galaxy - not useless.
so why bring it up? clearly, from an in game perspective, debating whether a ship should be top tier or not is irreverent, they basically all are regardless of how much sense it makes.
even outside game logic, if any ship could run with top of the line 50 years later thanks to extensive refits, its the galaxy!
so why would you even argue it couldn't be in the same league as some of the newer cryptic designs? if an argument has been debunked this many times, you shouldn't keep using it.
the excelsior was a tactical dead end as soon as phaser arrays were invented in the 2320s. not only that, its durability seems up to 23rd century standers, even the ones built decades after its introduction, refits wont be able to fix that. it should be no surprise that at its best possible, it could only match a pure combat cutting edge corvette, when it would still rate, at least displacement wise, as a heavy cruiser.
I'm on twitch, I'll check it out, got some time to kill.
There is scientific theory that says that only so many alternate timelines that can exist. While Star Trek has shown upwards of 40,000+ in Parallels, it should be noted that ALL that we saw there showed Enterprise-Ds with the crew we know and love however shuffled.
And thanks to JJ, we know that even a massive disruption of the timeline still resulted in the TOS crew getting together, and even earlier.
Considering his omniscience, Q having the most generally accurate future does make sense.
From the writer's perspective, these future timelines have the fascinating opportunity to show us our heroes after the end. Harry Kim for instance, we've seen two alternate futures of his. In the first Kim got home, but Voyager didn't. In this timeless timeline, he became a bum, obsessed with saving Voyager and didn't become a Captain. But in the Endgame original timeline Voyager did get home and he became a Captain of the Rhode Island. In STO's Prime Timeline, which is technically the alternate continuity to Endgame Voyager got home, and in the 25th century, Harry Kim became Captain of the Rhode Island.
It's not an egregious departure as Voyager home safe and sound means Kim continues his Starfleet career and becomes a Captain. In Timeless, we saw Geordi in command of the Challenger. There's nothing that suggests that he would gain or lose that command based on anything that happened to Voyager. As Chief Engineer of the Flagship, he has the fast track to a command of his own, and the Galaxy class is the one he knows best.
Keep in mind that some butterfly effects can cause chaotic damage across reality. Some just TRIBBLE up one person's life. The wave doesn't always reach the other side of the ocean.
I disagree. Riker only said he managed to keep her from getting decommissioned. He didn't say anything about her being uniquely upgraded. He said that with an Admiral's clout he was able to select her as his flagship.
The three nacelle dreadnaught is an old concept, with a design lineage.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_class
If we assume it was still deployed around the 2390s like All Good Things, then what we see is Starfleet increasing the tactical capability of one of its most powerful cruisers in an increasingly dangerous environment.
Did your computer come with 35% of its usable internal volume unused and marked for future expansion? And what about a computer case released by the same manufacturer ten years later with the same design updated?
Like I said earlier, the last Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier built in 2003 was radically different from the First built in 1975. It's not even made of the same kind of steel.
It's not just building one ship and continuously upgrading it. They're building newer ones with updated technology and updated modularity. A huge hull like that has lots of room for expansion.
Which considering the background information for the Galaxy is almost redundant.
Talking about upgrading an NX class, the NX class is bigger than the Defiant. Anything that fits in a Defiant should be able to easily fit into an NX.
True.
And the same is true of the Sovereign. Only 40 years old, Sovereigns should be looking at their second big 20 year upgrade.
The only things that should limit such modularity is things where the spaceframe itself is wrong. For instance Galaxy classes should be using extended Quantum Slipstreams and landing on planets. If the Dauntless is the optimal shape for Slipstream drive then the Galaxy may be the furthest thing from it. And let's be honest you can't land that thing.
Aside from that, from an external configuration and internal space standpoint, there's nothing wrong with the thing.
The Connie/ Enterprise class heavy cruiser T-2
8- FH-11 phasers
3 - FP-4 photon torpedos
Excelsior mk-II Fleet T-5u
10 - FH-11 phasers
6 - FP-4 photons
According to the creater of star trek the connie is 80% as powerful as a Excelsior in all respects including shields and hull ..............except warp for speed
Cryptic has the Connie as 20% of a Excelsior
The Galaxy got the same shaft from cryptic
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You can do that, but the cooling won't be as efficient, so it won't quite be making full use of the new parts. The new ships are built specially to maximise efficiency of parts. After all, if it were just a case of upgrading, Starfleet would still be flying NX class ships, and wouldn't have bothered with all these new (And expensive) designs.
Ultimately though, the Galaxy is what it is, as the rights holders say so, and their word is final. Don't like it? Take it up with them.
(On the subject of computer cases, a two second yahoo search revealed a computer shaped like a shuttle from the Enterprise-D. So I guess a Galaxy(/ies shuttle) CAN be upgraded)!
the connie refit has 6 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. its also lacking an aft torpedo launcher, just 2 fore launchers. that assembly on its neck actually has the warp core running through it, and the back of it contains the primary deuterium tanks as well. seriously what they hell were they smoking when they set up the packaging on the connie. even with 23rd century weapons, a good torp strike pretty much anywhere on the neck wouldn't only cripple the ship, but breach the core!
the excelsior has 10 duel banks on its saucer, 2 aft single banks, and 4 ventral single banks on the lowest point of its secondary hull, all ball turret. also 4 forward torp launchers, 2 aft. main engineering and the warp core is also in the excelsior's neck, but thats also the thickest part of the ship, and appears to have some sort of layered armor on it or something?
ya thats actually quite a bit more weapons, any target in the front 270 or so fireing arc of an excelsior would have 2 different duel banks pointed on it, wile vs the connie, it would only have one. not to mention twice the forward torp launcher capacity, at least.
and shear size? the excelsior is 4 times the volume of the connie. the excelsior was a monster step forward in its day, if you think about it, its really no surprise you stopped seeing connies all together.
next to trying to canon accurately rate the galaxy class, trying to figure out late 23rd century ship logic is my second favorite bit of trek to ponder. this is what i reason so far.
in 2345, the constitution was a right proper heavy cruiser, the most capable thing around at just about everything. in the late 2360s though, it was starting to get a bit antiquated, and its likely a replacement was drawn up, but due to complications, it just didn't materialize. with an aged fleet, and a stalled out replacement, my guess is that they combined the 2. just about took apart the constitution class, and put it back together with the new parts bin that had been partly developed for the replacement.
the result was a refreshed connie, but a ship that was no significant size increase over its predecessor. if you think about it, thats rather odd, why i figure there was an actual larger replacement that just didn't work out for whatever reason.
and in 2370, the connie was good enough. though they didn't waste any time developing a replacement this time, and it would be the size of a ship that should have replaced the proposed larger, stalled out constitution replacement that didn't happen. thats the excelsior of course, but mission creep got the better of that project and almost caused it totally fail as well, that whole transwarp nonsense. now that, they ether got working, and it simply became normal warp, and the reason for the updated warp scale, or they ripped it all out and put a top of the line conventional warp drive in it, you can pretty much pick your favorite explanation for that one. ether way, it was 2390 at the earliest before it was launched.
out of the constitution refit parts bin, several kit bashes were created. we can at least confirm the miranda, but there were probably 1 or 2 saucer+nacelle destroyers types too. the miranda in particular would have been an incredibly useful design, it had the same basic armament as a connie, and in addition 2 aft torp tubes, and some heavier phasers on the role bar too. it was probably ideal for any short range mission, its superior armaments it was probably a front line boarder patrol ship, had large useable space in the back section that was probably quite modular for mission specific equipment or just plain cargo hauling. pretty much any mission within federation space it was from the factory perfect for.
now the constitution refit, it wasn't like that at all. it was an explorer, purpose built for that mission profile. saucer to house crew and science lab, very very tall warp core, 15 decks high, that i theorize is ideal for long duration warp travel, a secondary hull housing LARGE amounts of extended mission related cargo and fuel, an pretty huge arboretum that probably grew the crew a lot of fresh food, a very powerful and large main deflector. it was meant to be outside federation territory, for years.
by the late 2380, i imagine the connie started to feel pretty undersized for the task, the federation's main explorer hadn't grown significantly for 40 years. with the boundaries of unexplored space pushed further and further out, it surly stopped being a large enough ship for the job. seems like the perfect time for a MUCH larger ship to be launched, to take over. normally in this situation, the 'replaced' ship would have its mission profile downgraded, but in the connies case, the miranda exists, essentially custom built to be perfect for that downgraded role. there wasn't really anything for the connie to do, and even refit to supplement mirandas, it couldn't have had as much useable, modular space, or be as heavily armed. it was also overbuilt for the role too, to much warp core, to much navigation deflector, to much crew quarters and science labs, those take a lot of room and were redundant.
so when the enterprise A was to be decommissioned in 2393 at the end of ST6, i think it was literally being decommissioned. it, and its class were basically done, there was probably a whole mess of excelsior being launched, and a whole mess of constitutions finishing tours of duty at that time.
thats why the connie disappeared, but the miranda and excelsior never did. there was always work for the mirandas to perform, and as the excelsior got its role downgrades over and over, there was still plenty of use for it. for ether, that does not include intergalactic war, but you make due with what you got.
also, i think the constellation class is a result of a lot of constitutions taking up space in scrap yards. the constitution looks like a 2 constitution class stuck together, with the 2 secondary hull scraped, and rebuilt to wrap around the saucer. the result was a ship more then twice the size of a connie, big enough to still be a pretty useful explorer, its even got 4 nacelles, and a ton of cargo space judging by all the doors on it it. thats why you practically never see any constitutions, they all got frankenstein'ed into constellations.
except like 1, that was seen at wolf 359. this ship was most likely an academy trainer, would be perfect for the job, seemed to be all the way back in the 2380s too. if a borg cube is heading for earth, what ship DON'T you throw in the path of it?
this is why i in particular probably facepalm harder then anyone else when i hear wheres the tier 5 connie? the class didn't even survive into the 24th century, and you want an end game version in the 25th century?
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
the first thing you should do is not think of roddenbury as god, after the original series, he was not a credit to the francise.
secondly, i double checked the filming models and what i listed are the exact weapons banks they have. so ya.
I WA referring to things like where people ended up. The ship being destroyed later just means we say a variant future. No reason harry Kim cans be captain of the road island. Or worf being an ambassador.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
It's brought up frequently and accurately that CBS has vetoed the idea of an endgame Constitution class. And rightfully so. But they have not made any such statements on the Galaxy. The layout and outfitting of the Galaxy class is solely Cryptic's decision and one we will continue to disagree with in its current state.
There is a functional reason that the Warp Core has a stack running through the neck of the ship.
In the Constitution Refit configuration, the Warp Core is directly connected to the Impulse Engines and supplements it. Part of the same radical engine redesign that led to the phasers being powered directly by the warp core.
As for the vulnerability, don't underestimate the durability of the Constitution. Look at the poundings the ship took in combat against Khan and Chang. Khan was carving up the Torpedo room and Main Engineering with phaser strikes completely unshielded. No core breach. For an example of shielded strikes the Battle of Khitomer showed that the ship could take direct torpedo strikes without suffering a core breach.
Tough little ship.
"By God that's a big ship."
Mine too.
The way I see it the Constitution retrofit project was the result of the massive success of the Constitution class. And the information from Enterprise.
Specifically I'm talking about the encounter with the Kelvans, where they turned the warp drive up to 14 (OCU). That's a massive boost in warp travel speed.
So the Corps of Engineers gets this information and they say...if Enterprise can do it, then we can take this to the next level. I'd say that two new projects were born. First the Excelsior project started out, with them not even being aware of Transwarp. I think Transwarp is something they discovered during the course of their research.
In the meantime they figured out how to duplicate what the Kelvans had done, and then applied that to starship design. They knew the Connie could achieve it, so they started there. Then there's the fact that the Enterprise and her sisters had been out for five years, and were 25 years old. The upgrades they had received were minor compared to what was now available, but they weren't modular, so upgrades were not simple. But with the engine refit a golden opportunity. Strip her down,rebuild her cram every bit of tech into her that they could. "And they probably redesigned the whole sickbay too, I know engineers they love to change things". So we get the Constitution Retrofit. Using a proven spaceframe to field the absolute latest technology and cutting edge warp field theory, while the next generation planning began. I'd say when you look at the Galaxy's twenty year gestation, fifteen years for the Excelsior is more than reasonable.
As for the Excelsior and the Transwarp project I'm of two minds about it.
What I've come to is, the Excelsior succeeded and failed at its ultimate objective.
With the Kelvans they managed to get the Enterprise up to warp 14. That's a bit over warp 9.8 on the MCU the TNG warp scale. I think they got what they were looking for with speed, but found out that there was something even faster, Transwarp. I've heard it said the Refit Connie had a top speed of warp 8 and a top speed of warp 12 on the old scale. I'd say the Excelsior was probably even faster...but then they discovered REAL Transwarp, and the Excelsior was designed to address that. By the time of the 24th century when the Constitutions and the older ships were phased out, the warp scale was redesigned to reflect the new knowledge, with warp 10 being the Transwarp barrier as well as "infinite speed" (a nice reversal of the infinite energy usage needed to travel at light speed in a Newtonian manner).
To that end, the Excelsior is bigger and structurally tougher to facilitate higher hull stresses, and a larger more powerful warp core in addition to the other latest tech a Starfleet ship needs.
Agreed, but also for a non-modular ship at that size, and with that hull configuration, with an absolute limit on speed, the Constitution was running up on 50 years old by the time of Undiscovered Country. With the Excelsior coming out the cost ratio has now shifted. It's much more resource effective to build a new Excelsior class, than it is to do a second full Retrofit cycle on the Constitution. Upgrading them before when the Excelsior or any other more advanced starship was just a twinkle in the ASDB's eye then yeah knock yourself out. But now that the next generation is ready, let the Connie rest.
That said...I wish the Hathaway and the Stargazer had been Constitutions as originally envisioned. Just to see the Galaxy next to a Connie.
That would mean that the Constitution had survived into at least the 2330s of course, which isn't outlandish if you consider Picard called it a run down, overworked, underpowered, vessel always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. Which is what one would expect of a hundred year old starship.
I disagree with that. The Constellation's saucer is a lot different than the Connie. It was probably another warp engine experiment with her four nacelles. She seems to be a predecessor to the Akira to me, with the shuttlebay right in the middle of the saucer.
Considering the Constitution class' exalted history, there's no way they wouldn't have. You could easily get misty at the Captain's speech, talking about how many times that class of ship had saved the Earth, and how they wouldn't abandon their post with Earth in danger, no matter the cost.
"She's done her bit for King and Country."
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
what was shown on the shows trumps any "hard canon" BS gene said. the MSD displays, the movies, the show, and the official tech manual for the enterprise refit that came out in 1987 and signed off by gene any way says there is no rear torpedo launcher never ways.
and gene rewrote history ALL THE TIME. with straight up saying episodes where not "canon". he changed his canon every other day and depending on what mood he was in.
Mk-III Enterprise....................1 Aft torpedo
Of course Gene rewrote his own creation...........It belonged to him you know......He owned it......It was his property............It evolved .. people that own things can do what they wish with it
You cant rewrite it
I cant
Nobody else can either
As far as the maps went there wernt ment to be accurate.................They were 2D !~ and made for a RPG..They were on paper not a PC 3D screen with the hubble telescope as a source
just because someone ...anyone made a show/movie after the mans death doesn't let that movie or show change what Gene made
Next thing you say the enterprise from JJ abhrams is real canon and the enterprise from the wrath of Kahn isn't, or perhaps you prefer Archers ship as the real enterprise and not Genes version
My entire debate is this in a nut shell
No one, no show , no movie, no manual , can rewrite what Gene made
his material is Hard canon and that means no one can undo it , everything else is canon or soft canon or simply garbage
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
That they've revealed. Besides, maybe I'm wrong. If you were to write to CBS with your complaint, who knows? Maybe they'll get in touch with Cryptic and have a quiet grumble, and next thing you know the Galaxy may sprout some teeth! (More likely they'll write you off as a loon and toss your mail, but that's the risk you'd have to take).
He didn't own it though. He created it and sold it. Once he sold it, it was no longer his. He was offered the opportunity to buy back the rights at one stage, but he either couldn't or wouldn't pay.
Umm...no.
There already are several endgame Galaxy variants. There no Constitution classes. As many people have asked Cryptic would've put them in by now, but they are barred from doing so. That's not conjecture.
As to why Cryptic has yet to actually apply the boundless feedback they've received on improving the Galaxy...I have no idea.
That's what I'm saying. Its entirely within the realms of possibility that Cryptic have been told that they can have a Tier 5 Galaxy in game, but it can't be as good as those ships that come after. Similar argument as the Constitution.
Yeah, well, see, that's the thing: Nobody (reasonable) has actually asked for the GCS to be an ubership. We're asking for something middle-of-the-road, albeit we'd prefer something better than the even older Ambassador and Excelsior, either of which is far more practical to use in the current meta.
Fun fact: The T5 D'deridex was originally going to have the same layout as the Gal-R (you'll notice the T4 D'D is a clone of the T4 GCS). It was changed to what we have now because the layout is terrible and the Tribble testers demanded something better.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I don't believe that CBS is micro managing on that level. That would require a level of understanding of the game that surpasses what most people seem to think the Devs have.
There's also the fact that the Galaxy class is technically available for endgame.
You have two varieties of Fleet Tier 5-U Galaxy Class available. That's clearly not the same restriction as the Constitution is under.
We're just asking that it be a little more capable and representative of what was seen in the show.
This. Especially as the ships are peers it's rather sad that they couldn't give the GCS the nod too.
Where on the model is that exactly?
Torpedo tubes aren't like phasers and definitely not in the TOS and TMP era. The main torpedo launcher is a noticeable assembly. As many years as I've been looking at her in V and VI, I never noticed aft torpedoes.
All the other original thirteen Constitutions being destroyed I haven't heard, though any constructed after 2270 being by default retrofit versions I completely understand, that's just logical.
She was launched 2286. She was seven years old.
In that case I don't think she was retired because of the age of the platform.
USS Enterprise at that point was a name synonymous and associated exclusively with a very specific crew. Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scott, Sulu, Chekov, Uhura. These officers and the ship and the class that they made famous...they were all retiring. Uhura was going to teach at the academy, Sulu had already gotten his own command, Scott was retiring to Norpin colony, Spock was moving on to diplomacy, and Kirk...he didn't know what he was going to do with himself.
And just as importantly, this was the time to move the new generation in. Kirk had ushered in a new age of peace, the Enterprise had one more final fight...and the name Enterprise....
"Captain's log, stardate 9529.1. This is the final cruise of the starship Enterprise under my command. This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew. To them and their posterity will we commit our future. They will continue the voyages we have begun and journey to all the undiscovered countries, boldly going where no manwhere no onehas gone before."
With Excelsior production ramping up, it was a good time to pass the torch.
I think Captain Archer would be quite opposed to stripping the ship of her weapons. Besides doing that isn't necessary to increase her science capability. The fact of the matter that gets lost in a lot of this conversation about the size of hulls and what you can put in them is that as the great march of technology goes on, the size of things gets smaller. That long term science station role you're talking about is currently occupied by the Nova class as ship half its size. While both ships have a max speed of Warp 8, the warp scale was changed to the point that the Nova's warp 8 is twice as fast as the Constitution's warp 8.
I like the idea that Constitutions are currently employed as Academy Training vessels. The ships are used to raise the next generation, and the cadets get the history of serving on one of Starfleet's most storied classes.
no this is one of the few things i agree with gene on only one refit was built form the keel up the USS Ti-Ho the first transwarp test bed. said so in the same manual you mention mr. scott's guid which i own and signed by james doohan him self great guy glad i got to meet him. any way gene him self and the same book mentions the A use to be the USS Yorktown the TNG manual suggest the same thing.
and a thumbed through the book again and found nothing about a rear torpedo launcher there is a tractor beam emitter in the aft section of the ship
The newer Enterprise manual also explicitly states that the Enterprise-A was originally the Yorktown. Anyone who doesn't have it can preview it for free at Amazon. Just search for Yorktown.
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-U-S-S-Enterprise-Haynes/dp/1451621299/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424216189&sr=8-1&keywords=enterprise+manual
The galaxy is a museum piece on this version of STO...IT is a Titanic and does not belong here at this stage of the game...come back 5 years earlier and a different story :cool:
By this logic - the Excelsior, Constellation, Nebula, Ambassador, Vorcha, D'Deridex, Galor, and Marauder are all 'gimped museum pieces' and should be discarded immediately. The Negh'var, Intrepid, Sovereign, and Scimitar are 'aging rust buckets assigned only to training cruises and milk runs.