Totally respect everything you just said right there, and the way you said it.
I believe you when you say that all you want is communication when things go awry. I feel the same way.
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
I would be amused, if I weren't so disgusted and saddened by it.
"Don't it always seem to go. That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone."
There may well come a day when somebody posts about how good we had it when Geko was Lead Designer. That'll be a sad, sad day indeed.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
well, at least erei1 was able to bring the post to the forums, but it's just a video game, if we want them to post we can't flood them and attack them when they do.
Not meant to be a "zinger". It's an observation that I fervently hope never turns into a prophesy.
Two guys, unquestionably both devout Star Trek fans. Dan and Al. Dan's not EP anymore and (some) people miss him. D'Angelo might or might not be a fan, dunno, but he's certainly not vocally geeky about Trek.
I don't want to ever see what happens when they put somebody who sees nothing but dollar signs and never once saw TOS or TNG in the Lead Designer role.
No, Geko is not perfect. And I don't like all of the decisions, whether they were his, the team's, or some faceless manager's. It COULD be worse.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
This ain't Sunday School, and we certainly aren't priests.
This is business. A business, which involves transactions of fairly large amounts of money, and a service that is requiring increasing amounts of that money for very little return.
Do you honestly expect people to sit back and smile over a cup of tea while watching their money circle the drain faster and faster? While the people taking said money show increasing hostility and resentment toward the people giving them that money?
To quote the Black Widow..."You just might be in the wrong business Rogers."
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game. To be dismissed because of my anger or frustration certainly does nothing to relieve that anger and frustration. Rather, it fuels it.
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
But, I know when my business is no longer valued, and the company I do business with doesn't want my money. I will happily give that money to your competitors who see fit to value me as a customer, and not see me as the enemy.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game.
I did feel upset and sad a bit with a few things myself when DR launched, don't really feel that toward anyone of them now, I actually played a little bit today, maybe S10 will bring us all something fun, money wise, they have serious bills, some of the stuff was understandable though.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
We need a zero tolerance rule for badmouthing the forums on the forums. No amount of critically applied negativity can ever make a forum into a cesspool. You know what can make a forum turn sour though?
Calling out the whole forum. White knighting. Equating 40-50% negativity with absolute negativity. Having a limited tolerance for whining.
If there weren't so many people here trying to play goalie on people trying to express emotion, trying to regulate or belittle the negative emotions of others.
I would enjoy this game and this community so much more if we didn't have people who blow a gasket every time people get negative about the game or the developers. That behavior drags down the enjoyability and the quality of the game and the community.
If I have an issue with the game and somebody tries to shut down or belittle that issue, that issue only becomes bigger and more infuriating for me.
This exact same game would be considerably more enjoyable and easier to take in if it didn't have people combating every last criticism of it. If I can express my sentiment civilly, cool beans. If people try to shut out a complaint I register or equate it with whining, I have to raise my voice and I have to keep raising my voice until everyone stops playing defense and lets me register my complaint in peace.
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words. This is the main reason I've been mostly avoiding the forum lately and will probably continue to do so in the future.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words. This is the main reason I've been mostly avoiding the forum lately and will probably continue to do so in the future.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I am not referring to you.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
Geko did no wrong posting this on Reddit, which is where the question was fielded. I noted that I wasn't surprised he did, as Reddit has a different flavor than the forums do.
Nor am I calling for his head or waving a pitchfork (and I am aware you were not speaking of me). However, I have this ugly tendency to call a trowel-shaped gardening instrument what it is rather than some euphemistic language.
He is hardly competent at what he is purported to be in charge of. Yes, we had disagreements with Dan. Yes, he took more flak.
But he made the effort, even with how much (often unfair) abuse he took. He made the effort to justify why you had to jump through the hoops, and there are people today who still defend him because whether he was effective or not, or you liked him or not, he was at least TRYING.
This guy? He is using the excuse that there's some people on the forums who are immature and trolling to disregard all feedback, then turns around on Reddit and claims that he'd doing the best he can.
I find that ... disingenuous , at best. But perhaps I am cynical.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
This is true. To a degree.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
Most of the bashing of 'positive thought' that occurred happened when these same white knights attempted to justify things that were flatly wrong (promising not to go F2P and kicking off a lifetime subscriber sale, then going to F2P less than a month later, for example). In the end, anyone talking in a positive light about Cryptic found their positions supported by these white knights, which ended up drawing heavy fire from those sick of their TRIBBLE.
The end result is, of course, dysfunction on a massive scale, and a number of well-meaning intelligent individuals rendered voiceless amidst a sea of screaming.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I can only speak for myself but that in my case is completely untrue. If you have any questions on this, you are welcome to read the DR review linked in my signature. If you read it all, I think my position on both the game and personal conduct will be quite clear. Which in a nutshell is that yes, I can hold both the expectation of civil conduct AND candid disagreement with the direction of the game at the same time without any cognitive dissonance.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
It got a lot of people, and it lingers about, now even trying to be funny things get messed up.
It is what it is now
For the most part I sympathize with the position he is in. It speaks volumes in that he could not post it here, his choice to use reddit as his forum was likely one where he would face a more respectful audience.
It's not just my fault / It is my fault / I report to people too.
I've lost track of how many time's I have heard that complaint during a project post-morten. People with positions several paygrades removed make decisions we as developers have to implement, regardless of the unintended consequences.
It sucks.
He has to work with a 5-year old platform that suffers from bad planning, high staff turn overs, poor documentation and a fixed release schedule - regardless of the problems found in testing.
It sucks big time.
He has to contend with a very vocal fan base that has little tolerance for the slightest errors.
I feel for the guy.
Question:So who do I direct my complaints to? I am a paying customer. QA can't listen. Support doesn't return my emails. I still don't have some of the items I paid for. The game was effectively broken upon release, taking 5 weeks to solve loadouts for many. FIVE WEEKS. And don't get me started on the petri-dish experiments with XP and progression.
If not CaptainGecko, then who takes responsibility for a terrible rollout? This isn't a mission-critical service. People don't die if the game doesn't work. But it is a business, and someone should take responsibility for its performance.
When your told to do something your know is detrimental or wrong, your role as a professional is to provide and demonstrate alternatives that can achieve the new requirements with minimal disruption to your client base.
.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
And if you believe this I have a bridge in Svalbard I'd like to sell you.
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash".
TacoFangs steps into the lions den and risks his fair share of chomps as he delivers news and communicates. He is respected by the community for this even of not all of us agree with what he is saying.
Geko, knowing the lions bite, slips off to another arena and posts his comments where he is fully aware the lions there have been, for the most part, declawed, defanged and fixed rather than sharing ANY information with those who hunger for it the most.
there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
And if you believe this I have a bridge in Svalbard I'd like to sell you.
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash".there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
It's not about taking sides. It's about calling it like I see it.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
Example please.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
That only works when neither side starts bashing. When that happens talk stops because eit's largely futile.
There are people who deliberately take Cryptic's side no matter what. There are people who deliberately hate everything Cryptic says or does. There are people who deliberately play "angry devil's advocate"
All 3 deserve little consideration and I've seen the worst trolls on these forums coming from all three camps.
I just tune them all out like white noise. You guys are removing yourselves from the debate by taking these entrenched positions. You probably don't even BELIEVE half of what you post, you're just deliberately taking a side in the debate for the sake of an argument or for attention.
Do the rest of us a favour and post your genuine opinion occasionally.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
Ohhh, nice, although I am NOT a Scot and am not fluent, I love the Scots language, even though the spelling of that time period conforms so much with English that it's a challenge to pick up the original pronunciation. I even went and looked up the rest of the poem.
But I amnae sae shuir aboot the idea o rinnin awa frae the Path o Righteousness...
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I think Geko missed his calling. He should've been a politician, because he's evidently extremely talented at talking a lot without actually saying anything of substance.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Thank you for posting Geko's letter from Reddit here. I read all of it but not any of the debate between players.
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
Thank you for posting Geko's letter from Reddit here. I read all of it but not any of the debate between players.
Alright. Ignoring the other players for the moment, what drove a successful EP to write such a letter? Did someone not shake his hand at the convention?
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
I coordinate advertising on Facebook for several customers. It's not as simple as you make it out.
- in the example of a consumer client of mine in the past 16 months, the COA (cost of acquisition) per Facebook 'customer' was about 3.37 USD, about half what they were spending with online advertising elsewhere. For them, it works and they continue to advertise on Facebook at a huge savings.
- in an example of a corporate customer, who was bound and determined to be 'hip with the kids', the COA was in the thousands of dollars. In that case, yeah you are right on the money.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
Arguably that's a more complex issue. Community management means daily engagement with the community. The lack of dedicated personnel, the rollback in support, and the clear disconnect between what was said in online posts and podcasts and what actually happens in game shows that Gecko doesn't really know his own product.
And I am sorry - but when you effectively link your bosses as part of the problem - I call horse hockey. And at some point this week, I assume so will they.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
And with that last statement we arrive in complete agreement.
Comments
Totally respect everything you just said right there, and the way you said it.
I believe you when you say that all you want is communication when things go awry. I feel the same way.
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
I would be amused, if I weren't so disgusted and saddened by it.
"Don't it always seem to go. That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone."
There may well come a day when somebody posts about how good we had it when Geko was Lead Designer. That'll be a sad, sad day indeed.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Ouch, that's a zinger!
Free Tibet!
Not meant to be a "zinger". It's an observation that I fervently hope never turns into a prophesy.
Two guys, unquestionably both devout Star Trek fans. Dan and Al. Dan's not EP anymore and (some) people miss him. D'Angelo might or might not be a fan, dunno, but he's certainly not vocally geeky about Trek.
I don't want to ever see what happens when they put somebody who sees nothing but dollar signs and never once saw TOS or TNG in the Lead Designer role.
No, Geko is not perfect. And I don't like all of the decisions, whether they were his, the team's, or some faceless manager's. It COULD be worse.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This ain't Sunday School, and we certainly aren't priests.
This is business. A business, which involves transactions of fairly large amounts of money, and a service that is requiring increasing amounts of that money for very little return.
Do you honestly expect people to sit back and smile over a cup of tea while watching their money circle the drain faster and faster? While the people taking said money show increasing hostility and resentment toward the people giving them that money?
To quote the Black Widow..."You just might be in the wrong business Rogers."
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game. To be dismissed because of my anger or frustration certainly does nothing to relieve that anger and frustration. Rather, it fuels it.
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
But, I know when my business is no longer valued, and the company I do business with doesn't want my money. I will happily give that money to your competitors who see fit to value me as a customer, and not see me as the enemy.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I did feel upset and sad a bit with a few things myself when DR launched, don't really feel that toward anyone of them now, I actually played a little bit today, maybe S10 will bring us all something fun, money wise, they have serious bills, some of the stuff was understandable though.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I have. I can do a list if you would like?
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
About 4 months back it was better.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I am not referring to you.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
Geko did no wrong posting this on Reddit, which is where the question was fielded. I noted that I wasn't surprised he did, as Reddit has a different flavor than the forums do.
Nor am I calling for his head or waving a pitchfork (and I am aware you were not speaking of me). However, I have this ugly tendency to call a trowel-shaped gardening instrument what it is rather than some euphemistic language.
He is hardly competent at what he is purported to be in charge of. Yes, we had disagreements with Dan. Yes, he took more flak.
But he made the effort, even with how much (often unfair) abuse he took. He made the effort to justify why you had to jump through the hoops, and there are people today who still defend him because whether he was effective or not, or you liked him or not, he was at least TRYING.
This guy? He is using the excuse that there's some people on the forums who are immature and trolling to disregard all feedback, then turns around on Reddit and claims that he'd doing the best he can.
I find that ... disingenuous , at best. But perhaps I am cynical.
This is true. To a degree.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
Most of the bashing of 'positive thought' that occurred happened when these same white knights attempted to justify things that were flatly wrong (promising not to go F2P and kicking off a lifetime subscriber sale, then going to F2P less than a month later, for example). In the end, anyone talking in a positive light about Cryptic found their positions supported by these white knights, which ended up drawing heavy fire from those sick of their TRIBBLE.
The end result is, of course, dysfunction on a massive scale, and a number of well-meaning intelligent individuals rendered voiceless amidst a sea of screaming.
I can only speak for myself but that in my case is completely untrue. If you have any questions on this, you are welcome to read the DR review linked in my signature. If you read it all, I think my position on both the game and personal conduct will be quite clear. Which in a nutshell is that yes, I can hold both the expectation of civil conduct AND candid disagreement with the direction of the game at the same time without any cognitive dissonance.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
It got a lot of people, and it lingers about, now even trying to be funny things get messed up.
It is what it is now
It's not just my fault / It is my fault / I report to people too.
I've lost track of how many time's I have heard that complaint during a project post-morten. People with positions several paygrades removed make decisions we as developers have to implement, regardless of the unintended consequences.
It sucks.
He has to work with a 5-year old platform that suffers from bad planning, high staff turn overs, poor documentation and a fixed release schedule - regardless of the problems found in testing.
It sucks big time.
He has to contend with a very vocal fan base that has little tolerance for the slightest errors.
I feel for the guy.
Question: So who do I direct my complaints to? I am a paying customer. QA can't listen. Support doesn't return my emails. I still don't have some of the items I paid for. The game was effectively broken upon release, taking 5 weeks to solve loadouts for many. FIVE WEEKS. And don't get me started on the petri-dish experiments with XP and progression.
When your told to do something your know is detrimental or wrong, your role as a professional is to provide and demonstrate alternatives that can achieve the new requirements with minimal disruption to your client base.
My Two Bits
Admiral Thrax
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
Short version: BALANCE IN ALL THINGS! Also awesome poem dood.
well, 4 months ago there was the crafting thing people where talking about still, been here to long i am guessing
the old borg STF threads where fun though
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash". there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
My character Tsin'xing
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
Example please.
That only works when neither side starts bashing. When that happens talk stops because eit's largely futile.
My character Tsin'xing
All 3 deserve little consideration and I've seen the worst trolls on these forums coming from all three camps.
I just tune them all out like white noise. You guys are removing yourselves from the debate by taking these entrenched positions. You probably don't even BELIEVE half of what you post, you're just deliberately taking a side in the debate for the sake of an argument or for attention.
Do the rest of us a favour and post your genuine opinion occasionally.
Free Tibet!
I think it's sad that he has to.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Ohhh, nice, although I am NOT a Scot and am not fluent, I love the Scots language, even though the spelling of that time period conforms so much with English that it's a challenge to pick up the original pronunciation. I even went and looked up the rest of the poem.
But I amnae sae shuir aboot the idea o rinnin awa frae the Path o Righteousness...
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
As I've said numerous time, you have people who want to see the forum burn on both side. It's sad, but that can't be helped.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
Alright. Ignoring the other players for the moment, what drove a successful EP to write such a letter? Did someone not shake his hand at the convention?
I coordinate advertising on Facebook for several customers. It's not as simple as you make it out.
- in the example of a consumer client of mine in the past 16 months, the COA (cost of acquisition) per Facebook 'customer' was about 3.37 USD, about half what they were spending with online advertising elsewhere. For them, it works and they continue to advertise on Facebook at a huge savings.
- in an example of a corporate customer, who was bound and determined to be 'hip with the kids', the COA was in the thousands of dollars. In that case, yeah you are right on the money.
Arguably that's a more complex issue. Community management means daily engagement with the community. The lack of dedicated personnel, the rollback in support, and the clear disconnect between what was said in online posts and podcasts and what actually happens in game shows that Gecko doesn't really know his own product.
And I am sorry - but when you effectively link your bosses as part of the problem - I call horse hockey. And at some point this week, I assume so will they.
And with that last statement we arrive in complete agreement.