.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
And if you believe this I have a bridge in Svalbard I'd like to sell you.
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash".
TacoFangs steps into the lions den and risks his fair share of chomps as he delivers news and communicates. He is respected by the community for this even of not all of us agree with what he is saying.
Geko, knowing the lions bite, slips off to another arena and posts his comments where he is fully aware the lions there have been, for the most part, declawed, defanged and fixed rather than sharing ANY information with those who hunger for it the most.
there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
And if you believe this I have a bridge in Svalbard I'd like to sell you.
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash".there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
It's not about taking sides. It's about calling it like I see it.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
Example please.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
That only works when neither side starts bashing. When that happens talk stops because eit's largely futile.
There are people who deliberately take Cryptic's side no matter what. There are people who deliberately hate everything Cryptic says or does. There are people who deliberately play "angry devil's advocate"
All 3 deserve little consideration and I've seen the worst trolls on these forums coming from all three camps.
I just tune them all out like white noise. You guys are removing yourselves from the debate by taking these entrenched positions. You probably don't even BELIEVE half of what you post, you're just deliberately taking a side in the debate for the sake of an argument or for attention.
Do the rest of us a favour and post your genuine opinion occasionally.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them." -Thomas Marrone
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
Ohhh, nice, although I am NOT a Scot and am not fluent, I love the Scots language, even though the spelling of that time period conforms so much with English that it's a challenge to pick up the original pronunciation. I even went and looked up the rest of the poem.
But I amnae sae shuir aboot the idea o rinnin awa frae the Path o Righteousness...
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I think Geko missed his calling. He should've been a politician, because he's evidently extremely talented at talking a lot without actually saying anything of substance.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Thank you for posting Geko's letter from Reddit here. I read all of it but not any of the debate between players.
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
Thank you for posting Geko's letter from Reddit here. I read all of it but not any of the debate between players.
Alright. Ignoring the other players for the moment, what drove a successful EP to write such a letter? Did someone not shake his hand at the convention?
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
I coordinate advertising on Facebook for several customers. It's not as simple as you make it out.
- in the example of a consumer client of mine in the past 16 months, the COA (cost of acquisition) per Facebook 'customer' was about 3.37 USD, about half what they were spending with online advertising elsewhere. For them, it works and they continue to advertise on Facebook at a huge savings.
- in an example of a corporate customer, who was bound and determined to be 'hip with the kids', the COA was in the thousands of dollars. In that case, yeah you are right on the money.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
Arguably that's a more complex issue. Community management means daily engagement with the community. The lack of dedicated personnel, the rollback in support, and the clear disconnect between what was said in online posts and podcasts and what actually happens in game shows that Gecko doesn't really know his own product.
And I am sorry - but when you effectively link your bosses as part of the problem - I call horse hockey. And at some point this week, I assume so will they.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
And with that last statement we arrive in complete agreement.
there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone inferring that TF is posting here for fun only. Sure, he throws a few jabs back here and there, now and again, but he does try to communicate with the player base here on the forums. Do I wish there was more communication? Of course I do, but some is far better than none.
Geko has had ample opportunities to make comments in a spirit of communication. Even if he were to lock his post so there could be no responses he could ignore the inherent flame war that would erupt herein, but no one could say he was afraid to communicate. Granted, it would be a one-side dialogue, but depending on the info presented it doesn't ned to be an endless tete a tete. However. he has chosen to hide and remain silent here on the forums. Why? Because he is afraid of receiving negative commentary and feedback? Welcome to the real world. People are are jerks. It can't be avoided.
People will attack every post, whether it is from Geko, Taco, BlueGeek or your average player. That is the nature of the forums - as it should be: a place to share opinions and engage in debate. Opinions are just that - an opinion, neither right nor wrong and entirely open to scrutiny. Information is just that - info. It can be debated and shared and it can be correct or incorrect. In fact, more times than not it not only encourages but requires debate.
If I have said it once I have said it a million times: we know not every issue can be magically fixed and we don't expect them to be. We do, however, expect to be reassured these issues have been reported, received and are being reviewed, even if on a locked, once-a-month dev post listing the top 10 most reported bugs. As the months progress and that list changes or becomes shorter, we, the players, can see that issues are in fact being addressed. Cryptic is a service provider in the entertainment industry and we are the consumers. Unhappy consumers usually means less product usage, increased negative word of mouth and the risk of a financial hit all things to be avoided.
All which CAN be avoided with some basic communication. Its pretty basic business sense. You cant make your clients happy all of the time but you can (and should) make them feel that their voices are indeed being heard and taken seriously. Even the tinfoil hat complaints need to be assured that, although there is no evidence of their complaint, the message has been heard and will be monitored.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
Yup. Can't say I'm having much sympathy for Geko. Trying to level my alt now. And guess what?! I'm running into endless passive-aggressive walls, put in there by Geko. shortly after the release of DR, to slow me down on purpose. For one, leveling takes much longer now. But you can't do Argala until you're lv 54. Cute, eh? All these mechanism in place, just to deliberately frustrate players, what's the point!? Oh yeah, monetization, that was the point! Knowing full well people would hate it. But he did it anyway. So, Mr. Geko, you made your bed, now lie in it.
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
Well considering I was the only one mentioning Dstahl in here, I'm wondering if you're talking about me, but since I didn't exactly "shared fond recollections" I'm asking myself where that actually happened ...
If you manage to show me the same amount of flak Taco is getting, if he decides to post in here, you might be onto something ...
Sorry I'd expect more from a Forum Mod, than generalize & demonize "some" people just to dismiss their concerns ...
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
Unless I'm missing something here, you didn't have to do much Moderation in here & the Thread is still up & running ... so we might have different definitions about "pitchforking" ... seriously who are "those" people ?
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
Depends on what the topic is, really. Some things I do take more of a middle position on, but some things I will blatantly disagree or agree with 100%.
One of the bigger things is the rate of XP gain from 50-60 and then spec points post-60. Without a doubt I'm displeased with that entirely, and there's really no middle ground I see myself taking there.
I've been pretty vocal on how I disapprove of double dipping on ships we already own to the tune of $30 each.
On the other hand, there are some things I just plain disagree with the playerbase over. I don't think PvP can or should be 'saved', and I think players are unrealistic with their expectations on the state of PvP.
These are just examples. I don't deliberately try to set myself into taking a middle ground, unless it's something where I feel there's a bigger issue that other players are too short-sighted to see.
I usually take a middle ground when it comes to that sort of thing, not to be deliberately antagonistic about it, but to try to open some eyes and get people to see a larger perspective they may be blind to as a result of anger or unhappiness for a particular symptom.
I see problems, and I see symptoms of problems. I see a lot of anger and hatred focused on symptoms, but I very seldomly see people complain about the actual root of the problem. I think the roots of many problems are either intentionally or unintentionally ignored simply because it seems like too much work to put into it, whereas it's easier (and perhaps lazier) to simply work on the symptoms of a problem.
Players ask for band-aid solutions, but then are surprised to discover the band-aid solution doesn't solve the real problem that requires a lot of time and effort on Cryptic's part.
Cryptic on the other hand, is too willing to give band-aid solutions as a compromise or appeasement, simply because it is more time and labor efficient than digging deep and making fundamental changes to the game itself.
If I take a middle ground, it usually is because I try to bring some clarity to the difference between a problem, and a symptom of a bigger problem. Cryptic focusing on symptoms does not make for a better gameplay experience, and it's important for players to ask for more than that.
It's important players look at root problems and to encourage Cryptic to rise to the challenge of being willing to take the gamble of fixing the root of the problem, instead of superficial symptoms for the sake of temporary reprieve.
If I am extreme on one side or the other on the spectrum of Hater or Fanboy, it almost always 100% revolves around root problems, and not just the symptoms that accompany them.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
Are you sure to have properly understood the symptoms of cognitive dissociation?
It's perfectly fine for people with "sharpened pitchforks" to wait for a Dev to post. Maybe just overestimating their own importance and the Devs courage.
EDIT: I was snarky, yes, but in no way did I use ANY foul language. Nothing I said was dishonest, either. If he doesn't like hearing the truth, then as someone who DOES have to deal with customers on occassion, he'll have to quit because there's no longer ANY confidence that he'll do the right thing or say what he means when asking for feedback.
Yes it did. Nicely done. I don't use twatter, mostly because I find it one of the more offensive social media methods.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
"Don't it always seem to go. That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone."
There may well come a day when somebody posts about how good we had it when Geko was Lead Designer. That'll be a sad, sad day indeed.
I think apathy is sort of where its at at this point don't you ? I mean the number of "forum fires" seems to be on the decline. I think Cryptic should be worried about the day, the majority of people just couldn't even be bothered to pick up the forks and just leave.
As far as the fond recollections of the Stahl era. I don't think more then a few people have said such things... I also believe I remember reading one that was an attempt at sarcasm that skewed subtle a bit to much. lol
The honest truth is we have no way of really knowing if CG is 100% or 90% or 10% responsible for all the things people claim to hate. Cryptic is a smallish developer and they do work as a team. He has simply been the constant and in his own words has his hand at least partly in everything. So he makes a logical enough scap goat. He also doesn't do himself favors with some of his words. (and yes I think we all understand when people are unhappy they can latch on to just about anything anyone says).
Anyway whats it matter. I neither hate nor love CG. He has been no friend to any of the parts of STO I have liked... he has also had a hand in everything I have come to hate about STO.
He is also the one guy who COULD likely turn it around... as I do believe he has the experience to fight for change in direction before its too late. I hope he believes what he typed over on rededit. No one here WANTS to hate him... I do love the CORE STO which I know he was a part of. IMO though all that good ground work they laid down 5-7 years ago... has been watered on by the big money grubbing chow chow.
If he wants to get players on his side... it wouldn't even be that hard. He simply needs to fight for a massive reduction in grind. Looking at what there planning to do with a ton of Time Gated / D gated spec tree tie ins with Ship sales and game grinds. It would be in there best interest to double if not triple current XP earn rates... and perhaps 20% more D earn rates as well. Even with that increase there isn't likely to be 1-2 months where players feel like there toon has little to do before the next Spec tree / Ship / Specialized boff set hits. A minor change like that and some attention to some of the forgotten aspects of the game like exploration and PVP... and with in 6 months people could be singing his praises instead of throwing bile in his direction.
Twitter can be, yes. If I'm right, though, he'll either block me and/or talk down to me.
If takes either of those actions he'll be a pincushion within days from forumites getting annoyed (again!). It's kinda funny how so many middle and upper management types can get so fixated on the short term that they end up incurring massive long term issues as a result.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Oh boy...somehow I don't think that tweet is going to inspire constructive discussion. Yes there are problems but that was just the kind of thing I was talking about when I was referring to things that make an entrenched position and attitude worse instead of better.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
If takes either of those actions he'll be a pincushion within days from forumites getting annoyed (again!). It's kinda funny how so many middle and upper management types can get so fixated on the short term that they end up incurring massive long term issues as a result.
Oh, I fully intend to post the results regardless. If he's open to a polite discussion, then he will have one. If he's butthurt and blocks or insults, it will only cement my thought that he needs to go, and I will state such.
[REDACTED] Exploit Action Update | 01.13.2015, 09:56 AM
Hey folks,
Lets talk a bit about the [REDACTED] exploit. There are two stages to the process of removing an exploit and handling actions for players who participated. Stage 1 fix the issue and ensure players can no longer partake in the exploit. That change is out as of today in patch [REDACTED].
Stage 2 With the exploit removed, we can work towards finalizing our data review and assigning appropriate actions. We have a lot of information! We know who used it, who they invited, how many times they exploited, when they participated, credits gained, and whether they gained a crafting pattern from reverse-engineering. We are still reviewing the data and determining the appropriate action for those who took undue advantage of the exploit. We wont be taking action today, but well wrap it up in the next week or so.
On the plus side, most players didn't partake in the exploit at all allowing us to focus on the few who did. It may seem silly to thank you for not using an exploit, but we really appreciate you taking the time to raise our awareness of the issue through a variety of channels. It demonstrates your commitment to the game and to keeping the game fun, and fair for everyone. So thank you for not using the exploit.
-[REDACTED]
I redacted the exploit name and the dev's name but this is from another mmo that some may recognize. This is how you communicate to the community on problems. Granted this game's (not STO) customer support is marginally better than STO's but at least the few times I have interacted with them and the Dev's they've always take care of my concerns and never treated me like I was just a number or paycheck to them.
I think there is a lesson here that some both in the game community and the game's HQ could learn from, but then again we don't really live in a perfect world, no pun intended.
Oh boy...somehow I don't think that tweet is going to inspire constructive discussion. Yes there are problems but that was just the kind of thing I was talking about when I was referring to things that make an entrenched position and attitude worse instead of better.
The truth hurts. I wasn't being disrespectful, rather, I was direct and 100% honest. If he doesn't like it, then that's HIS problem.
I think for a lot of people a defensive reaction would be instinct from that kind of tweet rather than jumping into the fire. That's just human instinct, not even specific to this situation.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I think for a lot of people a defensive reaction would be instinct from that kind of tweet rather than jumping into the fire. That's just human instinct, not even specific to this situation.
Comments
O see ye not yon narrow road,
So thick beset wi' thorns and briers?
That is the Path of Righteousness,
Though after it but few inquires.
'And see ye not yon braid, braid road,
That lies across the lily leven?
That is the Path of Wickedness,
Though some call it the Road to Heaven.
'And see ye not yon bonny road
That winds about the fernie brae?
That is the Road to fair Elfland,
Where thou and I this night maun gae.
__________________
300 year old poet saying, just as you are saying, sometimes there's a third way.
Short version: BALANCE IN ALL THINGS! Also awesome poem dood.
well, 4 months ago there was the crafting thing people where talking about still, been here to long i am guessing
the old borg STF threads where fun though
1: the CDF only exists in the minds of haters.
2: everyone I've ever seen get labeled a "CDFer" is someone who criticizes Cryptic more than the haters actually do. Note: I said "criticize" not "mindlessly bash". there's an inherent flaw to this train of thought. Mainly that Taco shows up to have fun, and usually posts nothing of substance. Whenever Geko posts, people analyze every syllable looking for hidden meanings. Then bash him for things he didn't say. Granted people do sometimes find things of substance that he didn't say directly. IIRC he made the infamous post on the "pet nerf" that listed a bunch of pets that weren't even in the game yet. However, more often than not, the complaints are tinfoil hat territory.
My character Tsin'xing
Mark, to be clear. I don't see you as a hater or a "CDFer". I see you along with some like Iconians as a "balancer". Rjcfoxtrot and Borticus (when he was a podcaster) and Havraha (when he was on point) have been similar voices in the community at times. You guys tend to go for what I see as a structured balanced perspective. For the sake of community and dialogue, that is a great thing. However, I also think you guys stake out middle ground almost deliberately, which can be problematic. Sometimes, I think, the middle can be less reasonable as a position than either extreme and I guess I'd caution you guys about the perils of an intractable middle position.
I think there are people who go way too far in defense of the game's direction at times and while it probably seems respectful or courteous to them, I think it can tend to enable bad behavior or bad long term strategies for the devs.
It's business. Sometimes they need a slap on the hand. This is true of anybody in business. Bosses, employees, vendors, shareholders. Sometimes, negotiation needs to be harsh and everyone at every level needs to negotiate at some point.
Unfortunately, I sometimes feel like it's impossible to get those wrist slaps in. They get deflected by other people. The devs seem resistant to the kind of back and forth where you can get in a few minor wrist slaps too, which is demoralizing. Sometimes, a customer/vendor relationship calls for a touch of sport and it feels like showing up for a boxing match against a hemophiliac to see how they recoil from what I think is often just an essential back and forth you have in commerce.
Maybe that's what I miss about Stahl. It's not the promises or sometimes unrealistic optimism or disclosure. He could trade a few licks but in doing so, it made it feel like there was back and forth, like you could spar without it ever being either bullying or going along with everything Cryptic does just to keep the peace.
Example please.
That only works when neither side starts bashing. When that happens talk stops because eit's largely futile.
My character Tsin'xing
All 3 deserve little consideration and I've seen the worst trolls on these forums coming from all three camps.
I just tune them all out like white noise. You guys are removing yourselves from the debate by taking these entrenched positions. You probably don't even BELIEVE half of what you post, you're just deliberately taking a side in the debate for the sake of an argument or for attention.
Do the rest of us a favour and post your genuine opinion occasionally.
Free Tibet!
I think it's sad that he has to.
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
Ohhh, nice, although I am NOT a Scot and am not fluent, I love the Scots language, even though the spelling of that time period conforms so much with English that it's a challenge to pick up the original pronunciation. I even went and looked up the rest of the poem.
But I amnae sae shuir aboot the idea o rinnin awa frae the Path o Righteousness...
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As I've said numerous time, you have people who want to see the forum burn on both side. It's sad, but that can't be helped.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Marketing Research companies recently did a study showing that Twitter/Facebook is just full of spam. Most of the time & money spent there for marketing is wasted and doesn't even reach the end consumer. Much less build the kind of relationships companies need with consumers.
Just hoping someone at Cryptic realizes the value of at least trying to build a relationship with their player base here on the forums.
And if you can't face the heat from passionate players because your feelings get hurt... well maybe you and your whole company needs to RETHINK the entire F2P Business Model and what these consumers hate. In order to make the game better you're going to have to face the music and do things differently.
Alright. Ignoring the other players for the moment, what drove a successful EP to write such a letter? Did someone not shake his hand at the convention?
I coordinate advertising on Facebook for several customers. It's not as simple as you make it out.
- in the example of a consumer client of mine in the past 16 months, the COA (cost of acquisition) per Facebook 'customer' was about 3.37 USD, about half what they were spending with online advertising elsewhere. For them, it works and they continue to advertise on Facebook at a huge savings.
- in an example of a corporate customer, who was bound and determined to be 'hip with the kids', the COA was in the thousands of dollars. In that case, yeah you are right on the money.
Arguably that's a more complex issue. Community management means daily engagement with the community. The lack of dedicated personnel, the rollback in support, and the clear disconnect between what was said in online posts and podcasts and what actually happens in game shows that Gecko doesn't really know his own product.
And I am sorry - but when you effectively link your bosses as part of the problem - I call horse hockey. And at some point this week, I assume so will they.
And with that last statement we arrive in complete agreement.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone inferring that TF is posting here for fun only. Sure, he throws a few jabs back here and there, now and again, but he does try to communicate with the player base here on the forums. Do I wish there was more communication? Of course I do, but some is far better than none.
Geko has had ample opportunities to make comments in a spirit of communication. Even if he were to lock his post so there could be no responses he could ignore the inherent flame war that would erupt herein, but no one could say he was afraid to communicate. Granted, it would be a one-side dialogue, but depending on the info presented it doesn't ned to be an endless tete a tete. However. he has chosen to hide and remain silent here on the forums. Why? Because he is afraid of receiving negative commentary and feedback? Welcome to the real world. People are are jerks. It can't be avoided.
People will attack every post, whether it is from Geko, Taco, BlueGeek or your average player. That is the nature of the forums - as it should be: a place to share opinions and engage in debate. Opinions are just that - an opinion, neither right nor wrong and entirely open to scrutiny. Information is just that - info. It can be debated and shared and it can be correct or incorrect. In fact, more times than not it not only encourages but requires debate.
If I have said it once I have said it a million times: we know not every issue can be magically fixed and we don't expect them to be. We do, however, expect to be reassured these issues have been reported, received and are being reviewed, even if on a locked, once-a-month dev post listing the top 10 most reported bugs. As the months progress and that list changes or becomes shorter, we, the players, can see that issues are in fact being addressed. Cryptic is a service provider in the entertainment industry and we are the consumers. Unhappy consumers usually means less product usage, increased negative word of mouth and the risk of a financial hit all things to be avoided.
All which CAN be avoided with some basic communication. Its pretty basic business sense. You cant make your clients happy all of the time but you can (and should) make them feel that their voices are indeed being heard and taken seriously. Even the tinfoil hat complaints need to be assured that, although there is no evidence of their complaint, the message has been heard and will be monitored.
Yup. Can't say I'm having much sympathy for Geko. Trying to level my alt now. And guess what?! I'm running into endless passive-aggressive walls, put in there by Geko. shortly after the release of DR, to slow me down on purpose. For one, leveling takes much longer now. But you can't do Argala until you're lv 54. Cute, eh? All these mechanism in place, just to deliberately frustrate players, what's the point!? Oh yeah, monetization, that was the point! Knowing full well people would hate it. But he did it anyway. So, Mr. Geko, you made your bed, now lie in it.
Well considering I was the only one mentioning Dstahl in here, I'm wondering if you're talking about me, but since I didn't exactly "shared fond recollections" I'm asking myself where that actually happened ...
If you manage to show me the same amount of flak Taco is getting, if he decides to post in here, you might be onto something ...
Sorry I'd expect more from a Forum Mod, than generalize & demonize "some" people just to dismiss their concerns ...
Unless I'm missing something here, you didn't have to do much Moderation in here & the Thread is still up & running ... so we might have different definitions about "pitchforking" ... seriously who are "those" people ?
Depends on what the topic is, really. Some things I do take more of a middle position on, but some things I will blatantly disagree or agree with 100%.
One of the bigger things is the rate of XP gain from 50-60 and then spec points post-60. Without a doubt I'm displeased with that entirely, and there's really no middle ground I see myself taking there.
I've been pretty vocal on how I disapprove of double dipping on ships we already own to the tune of $30 each.
On the other hand, there are some things I just plain disagree with the playerbase over. I don't think PvP can or should be 'saved', and I think players are unrealistic with their expectations on the state of PvP.
These are just examples. I don't deliberately try to set myself into taking a middle ground, unless it's something where I feel there's a bigger issue that other players are too short-sighted to see.
I usually take a middle ground when it comes to that sort of thing, not to be deliberately antagonistic about it, but to try to open some eyes and get people to see a larger perspective they may be blind to as a result of anger or unhappiness for a particular symptom.
I see problems, and I see symptoms of problems. I see a lot of anger and hatred focused on symptoms, but I very seldomly see people complain about the actual root of the problem. I think the roots of many problems are either intentionally or unintentionally ignored simply because it seems like too much work to put into it, whereas it's easier (and perhaps lazier) to simply work on the symptoms of a problem.
Players ask for band-aid solutions, but then are surprised to discover the band-aid solution doesn't solve the real problem that requires a lot of time and effort on Cryptic's part.
Cryptic on the other hand, is too willing to give band-aid solutions as a compromise or appeasement, simply because it is more time and labor efficient than digging deep and making fundamental changes to the game itself.
If I take a middle ground, it usually is because I try to bring some clarity to the difference between a problem, and a symptom of a bigger problem. Cryptic focusing on symptoms does not make for a better gameplay experience, and it's important for players to ask for more than that.
It's important players look at root problems and to encourage Cryptic to rise to the challenge of being willing to take the gamble of fixing the root of the problem, instead of superficial symptoms for the sake of temporary reprieve.
If I am extreme on one side or the other on the spectrum of Hater or Fanboy, it almost always 100% revolves around root problems, and not just the symptoms that accompany them.
Are you sure to have properly understood the symptoms of cognitive dissociation?
It's perfectly fine for people with "sharpened pitchforks" to wait for a Dev to post. Maybe just overestimating their own importance and the Devs courage.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
It needed to be said.
EDIT: I was snarky, yes, but in no way did I use ANY foul language. Nothing I said was dishonest, either. If he doesn't like hearing the truth, then as someone who DOES have to deal with customers on occassion, he'll have to quit because there's no longer ANY confidence that he'll do the right thing or say what he means when asking for feedback.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Thank you.
Twitter can be, yes. If I'm right, though, he'll either block me and/or talk down to me.
I think apathy is sort of where its at at this point don't you ? I mean the number of "forum fires" seems to be on the decline. I think Cryptic should be worried about the day, the majority of people just couldn't even be bothered to pick up the forks and just leave.
As far as the fond recollections of the Stahl era. I don't think more then a few people have said such things... I also believe I remember reading one that was an attempt at sarcasm that skewed subtle a bit to much.
The honest truth is we have no way of really knowing if CG is 100% or 90% or 10% responsible for all the things people claim to hate. Cryptic is a smallish developer and they do work as a team. He has simply been the constant and in his own words has his hand at least partly in everything. So he makes a logical enough scap goat. He also doesn't do himself favors with some of his words. (and yes I think we all understand when people are unhappy they can latch on to just about anything anyone says).
Anyway whats it matter. I neither hate nor love CG. He has been no friend to any of the parts of STO I have liked... he has also had a hand in everything I have come to hate about STO.
He is also the one guy who COULD likely turn it around... as I do believe he has the experience to fight for change in direction before its too late. I hope he believes what he typed over on rededit. No one here WANTS to hate him... I do love the CORE STO which I know he was a part of. IMO though all that good ground work they laid down 5-7 years ago... has been watered on by the big money grubbing chow chow.
If he wants to get players on his side... it wouldn't even be that hard. He simply needs to fight for a massive reduction in grind. Looking at what there planning to do with a ton of Time Gated / D gated spec tree tie ins with Ship sales and game grinds. It would be in there best interest to double if not triple current XP earn rates... and perhaps 20% more D earn rates as well. Even with that increase there isn't likely to be 1-2 months where players feel like there toon has little to do before the next Spec tree / Ship / Specialized boff set hits. A minor change like that and some attention to some of the forgotten aspects of the game like exploration and PVP... and with in 6 months people could be singing his praises instead of throwing bile in his direction.
If takes either of those actions he'll be a pincushion within days from forumites getting annoyed (again!). It's kinda funny how so many middle and upper management types can get so fixated on the short term that they end up incurring massive long term issues as a result.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
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Oh, I fully intend to post the results regardless. If he's open to a polite discussion, then he will have one. If he's butthurt and blocks or insults, it will only cement my thought that he needs to go, and I will state such.
Hey folks,
Lets talk a bit about the [REDACTED] exploit. There are two stages to the process of removing an exploit and handling actions for players who participated. Stage 1 fix the issue and ensure players can no longer partake in the exploit. That change is out as of today in patch [REDACTED].
Stage 2 With the exploit removed, we can work towards finalizing our data review and assigning appropriate actions. We have a lot of information! We know who used it, who they invited, how many times they exploited, when they participated, credits gained, and whether they gained a crafting pattern from reverse-engineering. We are still reviewing the data and determining the appropriate action for those who took undue advantage of the exploit. We wont be taking action today, but well wrap it up in the next week or so.
On the plus side, most players didn't partake in the exploit at all allowing us to focus on the few who did. It may seem silly to thank you for not using an exploit, but we really appreciate you taking the time to raise our awareness of the issue through a variety of channels. It demonstrates your commitment to the game and to keeping the game fun, and fair for everyone. So thank you for not using the exploit.
-[REDACTED]
I redacted the exploit name and the dev's name but this is from another mmo that some may recognize. This is how you communicate to the community on problems. Granted this game's (not STO) customer support is marginally better than STO's but at least the few times I have interacted with them and the Dev's they've always take care of my concerns and never treated me like I was just a number or paycheck to them.
I think there is a lesson here that some both in the game community and the game's HQ could learn from, but then again we don't really live in a perfect world, no pun intended.
The truth hurts. I wasn't being disrespectful, rather, I was direct and 100% honest. If he doesn't like it, then that's HIS problem.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Perhaps, however, I repeat: It needed to be said.