The point of my posting that wall of text was that is how a Dev should interact with the game's community. No where in that message does the Dev call people names or accuse the whole player-base of being cheats. Like I said, I've chatted with the Dev in that message on previous occassions in their "dev tracker" forum where you can actually have a conversation with the Devs without having to use some arcane search function to find them. They at least make themselves available to the community. They also are willing to listen to whatever idea the community has on the game and it's systems.
I was involved in some of the beta testing for that game, so I feel more connected to it than STO which I have a connection to having grown up watching Star Trek it in all it's incarnations.
EDIT: took out last line, made absolutely no sense to me, lol, must be the flu meds.
i appreciate the approach (even if i want to see him here and not elsewhere!). but then i have to think off all the stuff added since s6 and all promises regarding pvp! i can't stand it. so many wrong turns made and promises broken, as a customer idc about their feelings, just as they don't care about mine/"ours" !
i love trek, indeed i always refer to picard as like my stepfather (but so to punkrock in general, so yeah ...).
fool me once, fool me twice, fool me 20 times?!?!.... yeah..... no!
since dr hit, the last bit of what did hold me here seems lost. though i still lurk around and f.e. level my crafting schools, because hope is a bit**.... THIS FAR, NOT FURTHER BABBLE (tm since s6)!
idc who's responsible, the progression-policy is bulls imho!
Saw an interviewer once being very polite to Bush Junior. When asked why, he replied: "I may not like the man, but I respect the Office." That's how I see it. You may not like Geko, but being an obnoxious brat on his own channel, that is simply not done. The man is the Lead Dev of STO. When addressing him directly, do what that interviewer did: respect his position enough to be polite.
You, otoh, came off like a 12-year-old, just having done something naughty, and gleefully telling his chums about it. And to think that such a tweet would all immediately win us over, that's even more immature.
In a well done game, the studio absorbs all of those functions. Marketing should not be something applied at the end of the process, used to sell a product. Marketing should be in charge of game balance with the goal of creating a user-delighting, public crowd pleasing product.
Once upon a time, back in the heyday of id software, that's how every game maker did things. Then the giant mega-corporations found out that there was money to be made, and we gamers completely lost control, as corporate marketing slime was applied in a thick coat over everything.
Most of you will agree that politics and gaming should be firmly separated, (although games like COD and America's Army undoubtedly serve as recruiting tools for the military), yet the very example of what has happened to the world of gaming is a solid argument for the anti-corporate political struggle.
In a way I feel for Geko, but on the other hand, he's collecting the paycheck and the flak comes with it.
Though successful, Titov believes his team could have done better. "Throughout all of this, I think the biggest mistake we consistently made was that we were arrogantly deaf to problems raised by a vocal minority of players," Titov told Gamasutra. "For a long time our strategy was very simple - we looked at a massive amount of data we had mined and if it looked generally okay, it meant that things were going well, and if someone started discussing problems on the forums or on social media we generally ignored them. There was a lot of hate out there on the web being aimed toward us, the studio, and the game. Today, I realize that there was plenty of reason for that hate, but at the time, we were foolish and thought that we didn't have to listen to or respond to 'haters.'"
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
Cryptic Studios sees themselves as a game development house. They develop the game as if its a piece of software, an artistic tech product. They see the publisher's role as marketing, sales, PR, community management. They did this with Atari., They do it with PWE. They lean on the idea of the publisher and studio having separate functions.
In a well done game, the studio absorbs all of those functions. Marketing should not be something applied at the end of the process, used to sell a product. Marketing should be in charge of game balance with the goal of creating a user-delighting, public crowd pleasing product.
This article on the WWZ team seems relevant to this threads original discussion.
That pretty much is the sum of what is going on right now. They need to stop looking at the "data" since all that is is numbers. Engage people, find out in a meanigful way what the concerns are. Stop all the name calling, that never got me anywhere when I was younger and it still holds true now.
I remember my grandmother telling me, "you catch more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar," and there is a lot of vinegar flowing on the forums right now.
That pretty much is the sum of what is going on right now. They need to stop looking at the "data" since all that is is numbers. Engage people, find out in a meanigful way what the concerns are. Stop all the name calling, that never got me anywhere when I was younger and it still holds true now.
I remember my grandmother telling me, "you catch more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar," and there is a lot of vinegar flowing on the forums right now.
Just my .00002 dil
IMHO, one of the smarter things I've seen done in an MMO (which I didn't understand at the time) was this:
A dev once took flak for the playable classes in his game being numerically imbalanced from a theorycrafting perspective.
He said something to the effect that the spreadsheet was the beginning of wisdom, not the end. (It reminds me of Spock's statement from The Undiscovered Country: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.") He went on to explain that a spreadsheet or design balance was only the begining of balance. Two classes might have NUMERICAL parity but that might not be reflected in play because certain button combos or resource types might not be as fun. As a consequence, the dev said, he followed how popular the various classes were and would tune them to be IMBALANCED until they were roughly equally popular.
I don't think this kind of thinking is totally alien to Cryptic but I think it could be applied more deeply to their design process.
Good on paper first, then wreck the paper balance to achieve good in practice, and then the outliers need to be tended to as well.
In some ways, an upset vocal minority on the forum is the same thing as a handful of players doing 10 million DPS. If somebody (even a small number) is hitting numbers that high, you have to curve things -- perhaps everything -- to prevent DPS outliers like that. Likewise, if a group of people are unhappy enough (even a small number of them) and that unhappiness is pronounced enough, you have to curve the design to limit how unhappy the outliers are and to draw your pool of customers towards the center of the happiness curve while trying to improve the median level of happiness.
If the "hate" is so blantently false and easy to dismiss, how is it the developers are gone from their own forum and no longer communicating with the players at all
Because it's all in our heads, we imagined the problems, and our points are so far attached from reality it's hilarious.
How come I don't see anyone laughing?
Thing is, more or less every last single complaint ever made for half a decade has been spot on. Some more problematic or meanigful than others, but they were all valid, and they all hurt the developers emotionally, personally.
Where I start laughing is, when they seemingly don't understand that when you go for the cash grab, with "upgrading", crafting and 800 patrol missions, nerfing exp, marks, dil and EC - AND you somehow manage to STILL expect respect, street credibility and celebration.
These people must really have a low opinion of their players to imagine that ever happening.
So yes at this point, anything even remotely negative, or rather anything that isn't high end butt kissing, is on auto-dismissal per default.
Stop posting on your own forum, if that isn't denial, nothing ever will be.
So going back to the more vulgar the lie and having to keep it up - I didn't know of the historic reference, I just took note of it by seeing it done, I'd say what choice they got?
Also why the DR signatures hit home with them because more than just the 1 subject in itself it exposed the overall mentality.
Although I can empathize with what he says, he should have said it here. I don't follow every social network to get information for a game that has its own forum.
For the most part I sympathize with the position he is in. It speaks volumes in that he could not post it here, his choice to use reddit as his forum was likely one where he would face a more respectful audience.
It's not just my fault / It is my fault / I report to people too.
I've lost track of how many time's I have heard that complaint during a project post-morten. People with positions several paygrades removed make decisions we as developers have to implement, regardless of the unintended consequences.
It sucks.
He has to work with a 5-year old platform that suffers from bad planning, high staff turn overs, poor documentation and a fixed release schedule - regardless of the problems found in testing.
It sucks big time.
He has to contend with a very vocal fan base that has little tolerance for the slightest errors.
I feel for the guy.
Question:So who do I direct my complaints to? I am a paying customer. QA can't listen. Support doesn't return my emails. I still don't have some of the items I paid for. The game was effectively broken upon release, taking 5 weeks to solve loadouts for many. FIVE WEEKS. And don't get me started on the petri-dish experiments with XP and progression.
When your told to do something your know is detrimental or wrong, your role as a professional is to provide and demonstrate alternatives that can achieve the new requirements with minimal disruption to your client base.
My Two Bits
Admiral Thrax
Completely agree with this one. That's the problem. There are no solutions coming out from them, if they had said something like "we're sorry you can no longer play because we adjusted the xp so low that we're seeing people leave the game because of it" it would be a different story. Just recently for example Blizzard adjusted some things that made it impossible to play certain aspects of their title World of ********. They knew these things were causing people problems and they were professionals about it and made some changes.
That doesn't happen in this game and apparently being a professional is too much work because the management here just takes whatever they do for granted and doesn't do a single thing about it when they know it's affecting everything, like the XP ratios for Spec grinding.
And no grinding like this is insane, it's not normal gameplay in the west, we've got to get these developers out of the habit of making these games korean we are not korean players.
Cryptic Studios sees themselves as a game development house. They develop the game as if its a piece of software, an artistic tech product. They see the publisher's role as marketing, sales, PR, community management. They did this with Atari., They do it with PWE. They lean on the idea of the publisher and studio having separate functions.
In a well done game, the studio absorbs all of those functions. Marketing should not be something applied at the end of the process, used to sell a product. Marketing should be in charge of game balance with the goal of creating a user-delighting, public crowd pleasing product.
Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
And no grinding like this is insane, it's not normal gameplay in the west, we've got to get these developers out of the habit of making these games korean we are not korean players.
Even beyond that, it's ridiculous to have a patrol awarding 4 times more than an endgame mission, with usually less time invested.
As for grinding, 6000stf/1500argala (without xp buff) for a lvl60 to complete the spec point (including command). Even if you don't think the spec tree should be completed by the average player, that's still 75stf/19 argala per point.
Per character.
For the most part I sympathize with the position he is in. It speaks volumes in that he could not post it here, his choice to use reddit as his forum was likely one where he would face a more respectful audience.
Most devs never post on the forum, and post on reddit. That was always true, even way before DR.
The current situation probably didn't help, but Geko have no love for our feedback. Especially when it's negative. That's no secret, he told us about it several time. He have his precious metric for all the feedback he wants. He told us about that to, nothing new.
With how reddit works, he can bask on positive feedback all day, while negative feedback is downvoted to oblivion. And then, claim Reddit is more mature because of that (in his tweet). I don't see anything mature about it, only biased feedback.
Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
If only you could blame Atari. In this case you can't. Before Atari picked up Cryptic they promised CBS they would get them a MMO out the door before the IP contract they acquired from Perpetual hit end date. It wouldn't of mattered if Atari told Cryptic to spend another 5 years developing STO on there dime... cause CBS would have canceled the contract they had signed with Perpetual in 2004. That contract had a strict launch by date attached. Cryptic got the IP after they agreed with CBS to keep to that date.
Not sure that means we can blame Cryptic either... but perhaps. Either they told CBS no issues in regards to the date to ensure they got the work. Or you we can blame CBS for not being all that reasonable. Bottom line they developed a AAA MMO in around 2 years... with minimal work carried over from the stuff Perpetual was working on. (even if we have seen there ship designs pop up since).
The truth in regards to communication is this... Most MMO companies really don't do a ton of communication with there players. (all though most do more then Cryptic). The difference is the best developers tend to have an actual vision for there game that is somewhat artistic. Sure most of them still add cash shops and the odd grind here and there (everyone likes a bit of grind, if they are willing to admit it or not).... however yes a company like Blizzard tends to have a more long term vision for where they want there game to go. There are only really a few Developers that get it all right... but not every developer can be a CCP. (and even they have messed things up terribly here and there... still like good leaders, being able to admit you Fd up and fixing is what makes them great)
Hi, This is CaptainGeko (I dont spell my name using GeCko). So if you saw a Capt Gecko (or any other spelling of the name) it isn't me. I dont play STO using that name. I play anonymously. If you want to verify this is me, you can check my twitter account @CaptainGeko. I'll tweet a link to this reddit.
I am not the content lead, the systems lead or the executive produce. I am the Lead Designer of STO. That means in one form or another, I am responsible for all aspects of the design of the game. I am not responsible for the art, the code, the web, the marketing or even the business of the game - although I do work closely with all those involved with those departments. We all collaborate to bring you the game.
Building a Free to Play MMO is no small task. Its a huge challenge and, for the most part, Cryptic studios is blazing a trail, along with Perfect World, on how to deliver a FTP MMO. There are lots of different models. Some companies will, say, charge for content or expansion packs. STO does not do that. We rely on microtransactions to keep the lights on and bring you this game for free.
Let me say one thing that is very important to me. I love Star Trek, and I love Star Trek Online. If you listen to any of the podcast I go on, such as Priority One, STOked, G&T show, Podcast UGC, Trek Radio, and more, I hope you will get a sense of the passion and respect I have for the IP and the Game. I have been a trekkie since I was probably around 5 years old. My sister introduced me to TOS and all sci-fi. I have seen every episode and every movie multiple times - even before I started working on STO. And I have been working on STO from the very beginning - almost 7 years. I was one of 6 original employees on the projects. I have put a lot of my life into STO. It is my art and it has forever changed me. I've been at Cryptic Studios for 12 years now. Before STO, I worked on Champions, Marvel, and City of Heroes and City of Villains. Before Cryptic, I worked on the Sims Online at Maxis, and before that, I was at Sega.com/Sega soft where I worked on 10SIX, Vigilance and I was involved in the online aspects of a few Dreamcast games.
If you are reading this, you probably are more than an average fan. So I assume you like the game. As the Lead Designer, most design decisions come through me one way or another. Not all the decisions are mine. Like any business, STO exists to try to deliver the best product we can and to get as many people to play as much as possible, and in turn, earn money for the company. As with any game, I realize there are parts of STO that some people don't like. In also know that most people who play STO love the game. If you are reading this, I am going to guess there are more things about STO that you like then there are things that you don't like. If you didn't, that would be strange - I would imagine you would stop playing and stop reading forums and reddits about it.
I sometimes read post that people don't like me because of something in the game. That's ok, it comes with the territory. I would be lying if I said it didn't hurt my feelings, but I have been in the industry long enough to understand things like that are typically only said because someone love the product you are working on or wants more from that product. So in a weird way, even when someone says something mean, its sort of a compliment. Hey, I love my I-phone, but I have more than once cursed the company and the leaders of Apples for the product. Although I love my I-phone, it's not perfect and it still sometimes frustrates me. But I get it - humans made it, humans use it. I am still glad for it and admire those who made it.
When it comes to the business, I have a boss just like everyone else, and he has a boss, and so on. Not everything we do is my decision, but I stand behind everything we have done and I am proud of it. STO is the best game I have ever had the privilege to work on. I hope you love the game as much as I. I suspect there are some here that may even love it more than I. At Star Trek Conventions, I meet some wonderful people who love this game. I have met wonderful fans, men and women, children and adults, people of all races, creeds and colors. I met a young boy who showed me pictures of his STO themed bar mitzvah. I have met people who have dedicated countless hours making videos and podcasts dedicated to STO. And I have even met a couple who lived in different countries, met on STO, and then got married. Those people make it all worth it.
I guess the main point I am trying to make is that I know not everyone loves every aspect of STO, and sometimes I am the scapegoat for that. That's OK. But remember this - If there are design aspects of STO you dont like, I am probably in some way responsible for that. I am sorry you dont like those things. But on the other side, if there is something you love about the game (the story, the systems, the ships, the characters, the missions, the items, the enemies, the Star Trek-iness), I probably had a lot to do with that too. And so did a lot of other talented people. I hope there are more things you love about STO then there are things you don't like. And if you are on this reddit, I am guessing that is true - and that makes me happy. I will always strive to bring you the best Star Trek experience and the best game we can possibly deliver. I appreciate every one of you and I hope you will all play for a very long time.
LLAP
Al "CaptainGeko" Rivera
Lots of "I", "I am", "love" of the game, thoughts about the fans and sci-fi. typical trash talk to try give some personality to a computer screen avatar. i dont know the man personally so i cant state towards that point in real life, but on the computer avatar, it strikes out that the lead designer has a sheltered life in a way, call it what you will however you think i see it, but strictly from a constructive point; those who lead sheltered lives away from everything outside what can not be controlled or do not know about, they cling to the idea that everyone must like it because they do, but it never works that way. in the real world people like things that work correctly and make sense, but in a sheltered life one cant think like that mostly because sometimes such ideas are unreasonable or unpalatable for their own goals. for example someone made an idea that every feature on a game that was once free to run will now have to be tied to a dilthium sink because it gets the company big profits with a never ending source of players who buy into it and spend countless hours at it trying to find the bottom of the sink hole, but in the real world everyone else can not fathom why someone come up with such an idea for, the rest of us liked the old system because for us it worked or it was just average enough to pass along and be happy with it.
a lead designer of a game like star trek online states he does this for the fans? wrong, he does it for his wallet (like we all do for a job) and a designer who truly has feelings towards his community and a sense of loyalty and respect wouldnt go behind the games community back and stab it by going through reedit instead, which shows just how messed up it is that he goes to such lengths to post his rants and forthcoming features in so many way and fails to contribute to home base, and that is also on top of not making these news points more accessible. charity begins at home, when you have a solid community behind you (which ironically what this is about and yet somehow keeps ignoring the obvious) and then he can focus on other things with the community spreading the goodwill of the game. but all ive seen in this small corner of the overall community so far is a mixed bag of stool pigeons, fanbois and haters with no common ground besides the game itself.
while geko may have a point on the varying responses on the game and how the players only want to see the game succeed, that doesnt give the designer the idea to think that the community would like something even worse (example, delta rising "players love it", which as i recall the devs started getting fed up on). again sheltered life vs the real world.
if only he meant what he wrote about writing how sorry he is for what has happened, but what difference does that really make, would he ever go back on what he had a hand in? that just won't happen, so why write an apology for in that case?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
That's not really marketing you're describing with Atari. That's advertising running production which is the tail wagging the dog. Many of the ills in the world of commerce seem to come from companies confusing advertising, sales, and marketing.
I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled.
In general, one of the quickest ways to categorize how well run a company is? Is by what they define marketing as.
A company that confuses it or houses it with advertising is often an OKAY company but rarely GREAT. You've got some real limits there imposed by that kind of thinking.
If someone tells me about their job in marketing and it turns out it's a sales job or, worse, that sales is the primary function of marketing, it seems to be a good predictor that the company they work for is in a burnt out mini mall between a pawn shop and liquor store.
(...) I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled. (...)
Product design in the software business is primarily a product management function, not a marketing function. I concur with their puzzlement. :P
Product marketing (one discipline of marketing) can be a chief influencer in providing product guidance. But ultimately it's product management as the key driver.
All which CAN be avoided with some basic communication. Its pretty basic business sense. You cant make your clients happy all of the time but you can (and should) make them feel that their voices are indeed being heard and taken seriously. Even the tinfoil hat complaints need to be assured that, although there is no evidence of their complaint, the message has been heard and will be monitored.
No. They used to do that, but the tinfoil wielders treated it with the same disdain they treat every other thing Cryptic says. In fact it's where a lot of the crud on Peregrinefalcon's wildly exaggerated list of "broken promises" came from.
Actually, I am expecting him to do so, given his pattern of showing how thin-skinned he is. I was very forthright in saying I would be pleasantly surprised if he chose to diffuse the situation that he himself helped create. I keep saying that the truth hurts, and it seems he loves to run from it at ever twist and turn. I have never denied my tweet was snarky, but you can't say that I was being untruthful or not being direct.
Challenge accepted! As for being truthful, you overexagerate things to the point of making them untrue. And direct? The only thing direct about it is how transparently obnoxious it is. You never get to the point which was allegedly discussing why you felt the need to say that.
Though successful, Titov believes his team could have done better. "Throughout all of this, I think the biggest mistake we consistently made was that we were arrogantly deaf to problems raised by a vocal minority of players," Titov told Gamasutra. "For a long time our strategy was very simple - we looked at a massive amount of data we had mined and if it looked generally okay, it meant that things were going well, and if someone started discussing problems on the forums or on social media we generally ignored them. There was a lot of hate out there on the web being aimed toward us, the studio, and the game. Today, I realize that there was plenty of reason for that hate, but at the time, we were foolish and thought that we didn't have to listen to or respond to 'haters.'"
This article on the WWZ team seems relevant to this threads original discussion.
That's actually a good example of how Cryptic is doing things RIGHT. Cryptic at least reads what people are complaining about. They may not take action, but they READ it.
IMHO, one of the smarter things I've seen done in an MMO (which I didn't understand at the time) was this:
A dev once took flak for the playable classes in his game being numerically imbalanced from a theorycrafting perspective.
He said something to the effect that the spreadsheet was the beginning of wisdom, not the end. (It reminds me of Spock's statement from The Undiscovered Country: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.") He went on to explain that a spreadsheet or design balance was only the beginning of balance. Two classes might have NUMERICAL parity but that might not be reflected in play because certain button combos or resource types might not be as fun. As a consequence, the dev said, he followed how popular the various classes were and would tune them to be IMBALANCED until they were roughly equally popular.
One of the designers of Cosmic Encounter described it as making things equally imbalanced. Which makes sense to me and is a philosophy I take when doing modding.
Although I can empathize with what he says, he should have said it here. I don't follow every social network to get information for a game that has its own forum.
It's not really information, he's just talking about STO.
Challenge accepted! As for being truthful, you overexagerate things to the point of making them untrue. And direct? The only thing direct about it is how transparently obnoxious it is. You never get to the point which was allegedly discussing why you felt the need to say that.
Oh, it was truthful. That you're willing to put blinders on and attack the person who said what MANY people *felt* is absurd. That you *think* I should show a modicum of respect for someone who has proven he can't handle people who are "big meanie-pants", and treats US with disdain even when we ARE respectful is laughable.
Here's a tip for you: Truth is not always "nice." Deal with it. I don't blow sunshine and rainbows up people's butt, because that would be sheltering them from reality.
I'm not sure how that will help, one way or another. Acting like a child is never helpful.
If only, it will only show him he is right in what he says and does.
How is telling him he's earned the disdain of the community by insulting us and ignoring some really good and necessary feedback "acting like a child?" I'd really like to know. No one's ever been able to tell me WHY I was wrong, just that I'm wrong.
And chalk it up to ANOTHER thing he claims to be right about. I've stopped counting the ways.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Was he looking for sympathy on Reddit? And then says on Twitter, they are more mature and polite than on the forums.
Posting TRIBBLE like that is bait and if he doesn't like the behavior why even acknowledge it?
Sorry you're having a bad day or read some unflattering posts but, maybe do something about the issues instead?
You do that and your perceived negativity in everything on this forum will go away.
THANK YOU! I was irked by his comment about how Reddit was polite due to the moderation. If I were Smirk or Trendy, I'd be mad as hell for him saying that!
Saw an interviewer once being very polite to Bush Junior. When asked why, he replied: "I may not like the man, but I respect the Office." That's how I see it. You may not like Geko, but being an obnoxious brat on his own channel, that is simply not done. The man is the Lead Dev of STO. When addressing him directly, do what that interviewer did: respect his position enough to be polite.
You, otoh, came off like a 12-year-old, just having done something naughty, and gleefully telling his chums about it. And to think that such a tweet would all immediately win us over, that's even more immature.
As you were!
Sorry if you think being blunt is being immature and an "obnoxious brat". I was never good at diplomacy, and I don;t say things unless I feel they need to be said. If you don't like my style, then I apologize, but he needs to get over himself.
I would totally support STO dropping PVP. Never liked it, and not a fan of those that do.
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Hard to say " worse". Definitely it would swing too far one way then too far the other. But, it is possible that by breaking things worse so e stuff that has been ignored would becomea big enough problem they absolutely have to fix it. Instead of now where it's "close enough " that they ignore things for years.
I honestly don't know if it would be better or worse. I do wish they would spin off a purely PvP star trek game though. I want to PvP, just not in this state of affairs.
So admitting that to yourself, how is it that you expect Geko or anyone else for that matter to take you seriously in a discussion when you act immaturely?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's a new year and perhaps it's a good time to start fresh on both sides of the isle. Everyone getting upset, ignoring and insulting each other hasn't solved anything.
I'm surprised, also, by so many people think being direct equals being immature. Mature people don't always sugar-coat things, and quite frankly, have an obligation to not do so (while avoiding absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic).
The statement was a cold dose of reality. The question was confronting him on how he behaved. I honestly don't care how he reacts, but I hope it leads him to a shameful epiphany.
Comments
I was involved in some of the beta testing for that game, so I feel more connected to it than STO which I have a connection to having grown up watching Star Trek it in all it's incarnations.
EDIT: took out last line, made absolutely no sense to me, lol, must be the flu meds.
i love trek, indeed i always refer to picard as like my stepfather (but so to punkrock in general, so yeah
fool me once, fool me twice, fool me 20 times?!?!.... yeah..... no!
since dr hit, the last bit of what did hold me here seems lost. though i still lurk around and f.e. level my crafting schools, because hope is a bit**.... THIS FAR, NOT FURTHER BABBLE (tm since s6)!
idc who's responsible, the progression-policy is bulls imho!
Saw an interviewer once being very polite to Bush Junior. When asked why, he replied: "I may not like the man, but I respect the Office." That's how I see it. You may not like Geko, but being an obnoxious brat on his own channel, that is simply not done. The man is the Lead Dev of STO. When addressing him directly, do what that interviewer did: respect his position enough to be polite.
You, otoh, came off like a 12-year-old, just having done something naughty, and gleefully telling his chums about it. And to think that such a tweet would all immediately win us over, that's even more immature.
As you were!
Once upon a time, back in the heyday of id software, that's how every game maker did things. Then the giant mega-corporations found out that there was money to be made, and we gamers completely lost control, as corporate marketing slime was applied in a thick coat over everything.
Most of you will agree that politics and gaming should be firmly separated, (although games like COD and America's Army undoubtedly serve as recruiting tools for the military), yet the very example of what has happened to the world of gaming is a solid argument for the anti-corporate political struggle.
In a way I feel for Geko, but on the other hand, he's collecting the paycheck and the flak comes with it.
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That pretty much is the sum of what is going on right now. They need to stop looking at the "data" since all that is is numbers. Engage people, find out in a meanigful way what the concerns are. Stop all the name calling, that never got me anywhere when I was younger and it still holds true now.
I remember my grandmother telling me, "you catch more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar," and there is a lot of vinegar flowing on the forums right now.
Just my .00002 dil
IMHO, one of the smarter things I've seen done in an MMO (which I didn't understand at the time) was this:
A dev once took flak for the playable classes in his game being numerically imbalanced from a theorycrafting perspective.
He said something to the effect that the spreadsheet was the beginning of wisdom, not the end. (It reminds me of Spock's statement from The Undiscovered Country: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.") He went on to explain that a spreadsheet or design balance was only the begining of balance. Two classes might have NUMERICAL parity but that might not be reflected in play because certain button combos or resource types might not be as fun. As a consequence, the dev said, he followed how popular the various classes were and would tune them to be IMBALANCED until they were roughly equally popular.
I don't think this kind of thinking is totally alien to Cryptic but I think it could be applied more deeply to their design process.
Good on paper first, then wreck the paper balance to achieve good in practice, and then the outliers need to be tended to as well.
In some ways, an upset vocal minority on the forum is the same thing as a handful of players doing 10 million DPS. If somebody (even a small number) is hitting numbers that high, you have to curve things -- perhaps everything -- to prevent DPS outliers like that. Likewise, if a group of people are unhappy enough (even a small number of them) and that unhappiness is pronounced enough, you have to curve the design to limit how unhappy the outliers are and to draw your pool of customers towards the center of the happiness curve while trying to improve the median level of happiness.
Because it's all in our heads, we imagined the problems, and our points are so far attached from reality it's hilarious.
How come I don't see anyone laughing?
Thing is, more or less every last single complaint ever made for half a decade has been spot on. Some more problematic or meanigful than others, but they were all valid, and they all hurt the developers emotionally, personally.
Where I start laughing is, when they seemingly don't understand that when you go for the cash grab, with "upgrading", crafting and 800 patrol missions, nerfing exp, marks, dil and EC - AND you somehow manage to STILL expect respect, street credibility and celebration.
These people must really have a low opinion of their players to imagine that ever happening.
So yes at this point, anything even remotely negative, or rather anything that isn't high end butt kissing, is on auto-dismissal per default.
Stop posting on your own forum, if that isn't denial, nothing ever will be.
So going back to the more vulgar the lie and having to keep it up - I didn't know of the historic reference, I just took note of it by seeing it done, I'd say what choice they got?
Also why the DR signatures hit home with them because more than just the 1 subject in itself it exposed the overall mentality.
Completely agree with this one. That's the problem. There are no solutions coming out from them, if they had said something like "we're sorry you can no longer play because we adjusted the xp so low that we're seeing people leave the game because of it" it would be a different story. Just recently for example Blizzard adjusted some things that made it impossible to play certain aspects of their title World of ********. They knew these things were causing people problems and they were professionals about it and made some changes.
That doesn't happen in this game and apparently being a professional is too much work because the management here just takes whatever they do for granted and doesn't do a single thing about it when they know it's affecting everything, like the XP ratios for Spec grinding.
And no grinding like this is insane, it's not normal gameplay in the west, we've got to get these developers out of the habit of making these games korean we are not korean players.
Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
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Nothing to do anymore.
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As for grinding, 6000stf/1500argala (without xp buff) for a lvl60 to complete the spec point (including command). Even if you don't think the spec tree should be completed by the average player, that's still 75stf/19 argala per point.
Per character.
One word : ridiculous.
Most devs never post on the forum, and post on reddit. That was always true, even way before DR.
The current situation probably didn't help, but Geko have no love for our feedback. Especially when it's negative. That's no secret, he told us about it several time. He have his precious metric for all the feedback he wants. He told us about that to, nothing new.
With how reddit works, he can bask on positive feedback all day, while negative feedback is downvoted to oblivion. And then, claim Reddit is more mature because of that (in his tweet). I don't see anything mature about it, only biased feedback.
If only you could blame Atari. In this case you can't. Before Atari picked up Cryptic they promised CBS they would get them a MMO out the door before the IP contract they acquired from Perpetual hit end date. It wouldn't of mattered if Atari told Cryptic to spend another 5 years developing STO on there dime... cause CBS would have canceled the contract they had signed with Perpetual in 2004. That contract had a strict launch by date attached. Cryptic got the IP after they agreed with CBS to keep to that date.
Not sure that means we can blame Cryptic either... but perhaps. Either they told CBS no issues in regards to the date to ensure they got the work. Or you we can blame CBS for not being all that reasonable. Bottom line they developed a AAA MMO in around 2 years... with minimal work carried over from the stuff Perpetual was working on. (even if we have seen there ship designs pop up since).
The truth in regards to communication is this... Most MMO companies really don't do a ton of communication with there players. (all though most do more then Cryptic). The difference is the best developers tend to have an actual vision for there game that is somewhat artistic. Sure most of them still add cash shops and the odd grind here and there (everyone likes a bit of grind, if they are willing to admit it or not).... however yes a company like Blizzard tends to have a more long term vision for where they want there game to go. There are only really a few Developers that get it all right... but not every developer can be a CCP. (and even they have messed things up terribly here and there... still like good leaders, being able to admit you Fd up and fixing is what makes them great)
Lots of "I", "I am", "love" of the game, thoughts about the fans and sci-fi. typical trash talk to try give some personality to a computer screen avatar. i dont know the man personally so i cant state towards that point in real life, but on the computer avatar, it strikes out that the lead designer has a sheltered life in a way, call it what you will however you think i see it, but strictly from a constructive point; those who lead sheltered lives away from everything outside what can not be controlled or do not know about, they cling to the idea that everyone must like it because they do, but it never works that way. in the real world people like things that work correctly and make sense, but in a sheltered life one cant think like that mostly because sometimes such ideas are unreasonable or unpalatable for their own goals. for example someone made an idea that every feature on a game that was once free to run will now have to be tied to a dilthium sink because it gets the company big profits with a never ending source of players who buy into it and spend countless hours at it trying to find the bottom of the sink hole, but in the real world everyone else can not fathom why someone come up with such an idea for, the rest of us liked the old system because for us it worked or it was just average enough to pass along and be happy with it.
a lead designer of a game like star trek online states he does this for the fans? wrong, he does it for his wallet (like we all do for a job) and a designer who truly has feelings towards his community and a sense of loyalty and respect wouldnt go behind the games community back and stab it by going through reedit instead, which shows just how messed up it is that he goes to such lengths to post his rants and forthcoming features in so many way and fails to contribute to home base, and that is also on top of not making these news points more accessible. charity begins at home, when you have a solid community behind you (which ironically what this is about and yet somehow keeps ignoring the obvious) and then he can focus on other things with the community spreading the goodwill of the game. but all ive seen in this small corner of the overall community so far is a mixed bag of stool pigeons, fanbois and haters with no common ground besides the game itself.
while geko may have a point on the varying responses on the game and how the players only want to see the game succeed, that doesnt give the designer the idea to think that the community would like something even worse (example, delta rising "players love it", which as i recall the devs started getting fed up on). again sheltered life vs the real world.
if only he meant what he wrote about writing how sorry he is for what has happened, but what difference does that really make, would he ever go back on what he had a hand in? that just won't happen, so why write an apology for in that case?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That's not really marketing you're describing with Atari. That's advertising running production which is the tail wagging the dog. Many of the ills in the world of commerce seem to come from companies confusing advertising, sales, and marketing.
I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled.
In general, one of the quickest ways to categorize how well run a company is? Is by what they define marketing as.
A company that confuses it or houses it with advertising is often an OKAY company but rarely GREAT. You've got some real limits there imposed by that kind of thinking.
If someone tells me about their job in marketing and it turns out it's a sales job or, worse, that sales is the primary function of marketing, it seems to be a good predictor that the company they work for is in a burnt out mini mall between a pawn shop and liquor store.
Sales != Advertising != Marketing
Product marketing (one discipline of marketing) can be a chief influencer in providing product guidance. But ultimately it's product management as the key driver.
It's not really information, he's just talking about STO.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh, it was truthful. That you're willing to put blinders on and attack the person who said what MANY people *felt* is absurd. That you *think* I should show a modicum of respect for someone who has proven he can't handle people who are "big meanie-pants", and treats US with disdain even when we ARE respectful is laughable.
Here's a tip for you: Truth is not always "nice." Deal with it. I don't blow sunshine and rainbows up people's butt, because that would be sheltering them from reality.
If he and I were in the same room, I'd tell him the same thing. Stop treating him with kid-gloves. He doesn't like you, either.
Umm, yeah. Given past experience, I didn't expect that. Nice try, though.
How is telling him he's earned the disdain of the community by insulting us and ignoring some really good and necessary feedback "acting like a child?" I'd really like to know. No one's ever been able to tell me WHY I was wrong, just that I'm wrong.
And chalk it up to ANOTHER thing he claims to be right about. I've stopped counting the ways.
THIS...?
or maybe it's just THIS.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I would totally support STO dropping PVP. Never liked it, and not a fan of those that do.
Your feedback is valuable. Tell me where I went wrong, benevolent one!
THANK YOU! I was irked by his comment about how Reddit was polite due to the moderation. If I were Smirk or Trendy, I'd be mad as hell for him saying that!
Sorry if you think being blunt is being immature and an "obnoxious brat". I was never good at diplomacy, and I don;t say things unless I feel they need to be said. If you don't like my style, then I apologize, but he needs to get over himself.
Well, yes. :P
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Hard to say " worse". Definitely it would swing too far one way then too far the other. But, it is possible that by breaking things worse so e stuff that has been ignored would becomea big enough problem they absolutely have to fix it. Instead of now where it's "close enough " that they ignore things for years.
I honestly don't know if it would be better or worse. I do wish they would spin off a purely PvP star trek game though. I want to PvP, just not in this state of affairs.
I'm surprised, also, by so many people think being direct equals being immature. Mature people don't always sugar-coat things, and quite frankly, have an obligation to not do so (while avoiding absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic).
The statement was a cold dose of reality. The question was confronting him on how he behaved. I honestly don't care how he reacts, but I hope it leads him to a shameful epiphany.