Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
If only you could blame Atari. In this case you can't. Before Atari picked up Cryptic they promised CBS they would get them a MMO out the door before the IP contract they acquired from Perpetual hit end date. It wouldn't of mattered if Atari told Cryptic to spend another 5 years developing STO on there dime... cause CBS would have canceled the contract they had signed with Perpetual in 2004. That contract had a strict launch by date attached. Cryptic got the IP after they agreed with CBS to keep to that date.
Not sure that means we can blame Cryptic either... but perhaps. Either they told CBS no issues in regards to the date to ensure they got the work. Or you we can blame CBS for not being all that reasonable. Bottom line they developed a AAA MMO in around 2 years... with minimal work carried over from the stuff Perpetual was working on. (even if we have seen there ship designs pop up since).
The truth in regards to communication is this... Most MMO companies really don't do a ton of communication with there players. (all though most do more then Cryptic). The difference is the best developers tend to have an actual vision for there game that is somewhat artistic. Sure most of them still add cash shops and the odd grind here and there (everyone likes a bit of grind, if they are willing to admit it or not).... however yes a company like Blizzard tends to have a more long term vision for where they want there game to go. There are only really a few Developers that get it all right... but not every developer can be a CCP. (and even they have messed things up terribly here and there... still like good leaders, being able to admit you Fd up and fixing is what makes them great)
Hi, This is CaptainGeko (I dont spell my name using GeCko). So if you saw a Capt Gecko (or any other spelling of the name) it isn't me. I dont play STO using that name. I play anonymously. If you want to verify this is me, you can check my twitter account @CaptainGeko. I'll tweet a link to this reddit.
I am not the content lead, the systems lead or the executive produce. I am the Lead Designer of STO. That means in one form or another, I am responsible for all aspects of the design of the game. I am not responsible for the art, the code, the web, the marketing or even the business of the game - although I do work closely with all those involved with those departments. We all collaborate to bring you the game.
Building a Free to Play MMO is no small task. Its a huge challenge and, for the most part, Cryptic studios is blazing a trail, along with Perfect World, on how to deliver a FTP MMO. There are lots of different models. Some companies will, say, charge for content or expansion packs. STO does not do that. We rely on microtransactions to keep the lights on and bring you this game for free.
Let me say one thing that is very important to me. I love Star Trek, and I love Star Trek Online. If you listen to any of the podcast I go on, such as Priority One, STOked, G&T show, Podcast UGC, Trek Radio, and more, I hope you will get a sense of the passion and respect I have for the IP and the Game. I have been a trekkie since I was probably around 5 years old. My sister introduced me to TOS and all sci-fi. I have seen every episode and every movie multiple times - even before I started working on STO. And I have been working on STO from the very beginning - almost 7 years. I was one of 6 original employees on the projects. I have put a lot of my life into STO. It is my art and it has forever changed me. I've been at Cryptic Studios for 12 years now. Before STO, I worked on Champions, Marvel, and City of Heroes and City of Villains. Before Cryptic, I worked on the Sims Online at Maxis, and before that, I was at Sega.com/Sega soft where I worked on 10SIX, Vigilance and I was involved in the online aspects of a few Dreamcast games.
If you are reading this, you probably are more than an average fan. So I assume you like the game. As the Lead Designer, most design decisions come through me one way or another. Not all the decisions are mine. Like any business, STO exists to try to deliver the best product we can and to get as many people to play as much as possible, and in turn, earn money for the company. As with any game, I realize there are parts of STO that some people don't like. In also know that most people who play STO love the game. If you are reading this, I am going to guess there are more things about STO that you like then there are things that you don't like. If you didn't, that would be strange - I would imagine you would stop playing and stop reading forums and reddits about it.
I sometimes read post that people don't like me because of something in the game. That's ok, it comes with the territory. I would be lying if I said it didn't hurt my feelings, but I have been in the industry long enough to understand things like that are typically only said because someone love the product you are working on or wants more from that product. So in a weird way, even when someone says something mean, its sort of a compliment. Hey, I love my I-phone, but I have more than once cursed the company and the leaders of Apples for the product. Although I love my I-phone, it's not perfect and it still sometimes frustrates me. But I get it - humans made it, humans use it. I am still glad for it and admire those who made it.
When it comes to the business, I have a boss just like everyone else, and he has a boss, and so on. Not everything we do is my decision, but I stand behind everything we have done and I am proud of it. STO is the best game I have ever had the privilege to work on. I hope you love the game as much as I. I suspect there are some here that may even love it more than I. At Star Trek Conventions, I meet some wonderful people who love this game. I have met wonderful fans, men and women, children and adults, people of all races, creeds and colors. I met a young boy who showed me pictures of his STO themed bar mitzvah. I have met people who have dedicated countless hours making videos and podcasts dedicated to STO. And I have even met a couple who lived in different countries, met on STO, and then got married. Those people make it all worth it.
I guess the main point I am trying to make is that I know not everyone loves every aspect of STO, and sometimes I am the scapegoat for that. That's OK. But remember this - If there are design aspects of STO you dont like, I am probably in some way responsible for that. I am sorry you dont like those things. But on the other side, if there is something you love about the game (the story, the systems, the ships, the characters, the missions, the items, the enemies, the Star Trek-iness), I probably had a lot to do with that too. And so did a lot of other talented people. I hope there are more things you love about STO then there are things you don't like. And if you are on this reddit, I am guessing that is true - and that makes me happy. I will always strive to bring you the best Star Trek experience and the best game we can possibly deliver. I appreciate every one of you and I hope you will all play for a very long time.
LLAP
Al "CaptainGeko" Rivera
Lots of "I", "I am", "love" of the game, thoughts about the fans and sci-fi. typical trash talk to try give some personality to a computer screen avatar. i dont know the man personally so i cant state towards that point in real life, but on the computer avatar, it strikes out that the lead designer has a sheltered life in a way, call it what you will however you think i see it, but strictly from a constructive point; those who lead sheltered lives away from everything outside what can not be controlled or do not know about, they cling to the idea that everyone must like it because they do, but it never works that way. in the real world people like things that work correctly and make sense, but in a sheltered life one cant think like that mostly because sometimes such ideas are unreasonable or unpalatable for their own goals. for example someone made an idea that every feature on a game that was once free to run will now have to be tied to a dilthium sink because it gets the company big profits with a never ending source of players who buy into it and spend countless hours at it trying to find the bottom of the sink hole, but in the real world everyone else can not fathom why someone come up with such an idea for, the rest of us liked the old system because for us it worked or it was just average enough to pass along and be happy with it.
a lead designer of a game like star trek online states he does this for the fans? wrong, he does it for his wallet (like we all do for a job) and a designer who truly has feelings towards his community and a sense of loyalty and respect wouldnt go behind the games community back and stab it by going through reedit instead, which shows just how messed up it is that he goes to such lengths to post his rants and forthcoming features in so many way and fails to contribute to home base, and that is also on top of not making these news points more accessible. charity begins at home, when you have a solid community behind you (which ironically what this is about and yet somehow keeps ignoring the obvious) and then he can focus on other things with the community spreading the goodwill of the game. but all ive seen in this small corner of the overall community so far is a mixed bag of stool pigeons, fanbois and haters with no common ground besides the game itself.
while geko may have a point on the varying responses on the game and how the players only want to see the game succeed, that doesnt give the designer the idea to think that the community would like something even worse (example, delta rising "players love it", which as i recall the devs started getting fed up on). again sheltered life vs the real world.
if only he meant what he wrote about writing how sorry he is for what has happened, but what difference does that really make, would he ever go back on what he had a hand in? that just won't happen, so why write an apology for in that case?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Atari was well known for forcing unwanted features on development so they can slap a label on a box in the last weeks. They did this every single time. Bug fixing was cancelled, the whole game went unfinished, just so Atari could have 20,000 fetch or kill quests.. Atari did well, oh wait, bankrupt. Every game they pushed out had horrible launches, this is what happens when accountants control an art. It happens still with EA a lot, and PWE is no different.
On the reverse, back in the day, the artists ruled supreme, every MMO was 300% over budget, pushed back 5 times with a massive scope and inability to deliver on it.
There needs to be a combination with good communication between the two departments, for an industry hellbent on duplicating WoWs success they sure overlook the most major part of their success, and that was a good launch, probably the first MMO to ever launch well.
That's not really marketing you're describing with Atari. That's advertising running production which is the tail wagging the dog. Many of the ills in the world of commerce seem to come from companies confusing advertising, sales, and marketing.
I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled.
In general, one of the quickest ways to categorize how well run a company is? Is by what they define marketing as.
A company that confuses it or houses it with advertising is often an OKAY company but rarely GREAT. You've got some real limits there imposed by that kind of thinking.
If someone tells me about their job in marketing and it turns out it's a sales job or, worse, that sales is the primary function of marketing, it seems to be a good predictor that the company they work for is in a burnt out mini mall between a pawn shop and liquor store.
(...) I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled. (...)
Product design in the software business is primarily a product management function, not a marketing function. I concur with their puzzlement. :P
Product marketing (one discipline of marketing) can be a chief influencer in providing product guidance. But ultimately it's product management as the key driver.
All which CAN be avoided with some basic communication. Its pretty basic business sense. You cant make your clients happy all of the time but you can (and should) make them feel that their voices are indeed being heard and taken seriously. Even the tinfoil hat complaints need to be assured that, although there is no evidence of their complaint, the message has been heard and will be monitored.
No. They used to do that, but the tinfoil wielders treated it with the same disdain they treat every other thing Cryptic says. In fact it's where a lot of the crud on Peregrinefalcon's wildly exaggerated list of "broken promises" came from.
Actually, I am expecting him to do so, given his pattern of showing how thin-skinned he is. I was very forthright in saying I would be pleasantly surprised if he chose to diffuse the situation that he himself helped create. I keep saying that the truth hurts, and it seems he loves to run from it at ever twist and turn. I have never denied my tweet was snarky, but you can't say that I was being untruthful or not being direct.
Challenge accepted! As for being truthful, you overexagerate things to the point of making them untrue. And direct? The only thing direct about it is how transparently obnoxious it is. You never get to the point which was allegedly discussing why you felt the need to say that.
Though successful, Titov believes his team could have done better. "Throughout all of this, I think the biggest mistake we consistently made was that we were arrogantly deaf to problems raised by a vocal minority of players," Titov told Gamasutra. "For a long time our strategy was very simple - we looked at a massive amount of data we had mined and if it looked generally okay, it meant that things were going well, and if someone started discussing problems on the forums or on social media we generally ignored them. There was a lot of hate out there on the web being aimed toward us, the studio, and the game. Today, I realize that there was plenty of reason for that hate, but at the time, we were foolish and thought that we didn't have to listen to or respond to 'haters.'"
This article on the WWZ team seems relevant to this threads original discussion.
That's actually a good example of how Cryptic is doing things RIGHT. Cryptic at least reads what people are complaining about. They may not take action, but they READ it.
IMHO, one of the smarter things I've seen done in an MMO (which I didn't understand at the time) was this:
A dev once took flak for the playable classes in his game being numerically imbalanced from a theorycrafting perspective.
He said something to the effect that the spreadsheet was the beginning of wisdom, not the end. (It reminds me of Spock's statement from The Undiscovered Country: "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.") He went on to explain that a spreadsheet or design balance was only the beginning of balance. Two classes might have NUMERICAL parity but that might not be reflected in play because certain button combos or resource types might not be as fun. As a consequence, the dev said, he followed how popular the various classes were and would tune them to be IMBALANCED until they were roughly equally popular.
One of the designers of Cosmic Encounter described it as making things equally imbalanced. Which makes sense to me and is a philosophy I take when doing modding.
Although I can empathize with what he says, he should have said it here. I don't follow every social network to get information for a game that has its own forum.
It's not really information, he's just talking about STO.
Challenge accepted! As for being truthful, you overexagerate things to the point of making them untrue. And direct? The only thing direct about it is how transparently obnoxious it is. You never get to the point which was allegedly discussing why you felt the need to say that.
Oh, it was truthful. That you're willing to put blinders on and attack the person who said what MANY people *felt* is absurd. That you *think* I should show a modicum of respect for someone who has proven he can't handle people who are "big meanie-pants", and treats US with disdain even when we ARE respectful is laughable.
Here's a tip for you: Truth is not always "nice." Deal with it. I don't blow sunshine and rainbows up people's butt, because that would be sheltering them from reality.
I'm not sure how that will help, one way or another. Acting like a child is never helpful.
If only, it will only show him he is right in what he says and does.
How is telling him he's earned the disdain of the community by insulting us and ignoring some really good and necessary feedback "acting like a child?" I'd really like to know. No one's ever been able to tell me WHY I was wrong, just that I'm wrong.
And chalk it up to ANOTHER thing he claims to be right about. I've stopped counting the ways.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Was he looking for sympathy on Reddit? And then says on Twitter, they are more mature and polite than on the forums.
Posting TRIBBLE like that is bait and if he doesn't like the behavior why even acknowledge it?
Sorry you're having a bad day or read some unflattering posts but, maybe do something about the issues instead?
You do that and your perceived negativity in everything on this forum will go away.
THANK YOU! I was irked by his comment about how Reddit was polite due to the moderation. If I were Smirk or Trendy, I'd be mad as hell for him saying that!
Saw an interviewer once being very polite to Bush Junior. When asked why, he replied: "I may not like the man, but I respect the Office." That's how I see it. You may not like Geko, but being an obnoxious brat on his own channel, that is simply not done. The man is the Lead Dev of STO. When addressing him directly, do what that interviewer did: respect his position enough to be polite.
You, otoh, came off like a 12-year-old, just having done something naughty, and gleefully telling his chums about it. And to think that such a tweet would all immediately win us over, that's even more immature.
As you were!
Sorry if you think being blunt is being immature and an "obnoxious brat". I was never good at diplomacy, and I don;t say things unless I feel they need to be said. If you don't like my style, then I apologize, but he needs to get over himself.
I would totally support STO dropping PVP. Never liked it, and not a fan of those that do.
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Hard to say " worse". Definitely it would swing too far one way then too far the other. But, it is possible that by breaking things worse so e stuff that has been ignored would becomea big enough problem they absolutely have to fix it. Instead of now where it's "close enough " that they ignore things for years.
I honestly don't know if it would be better or worse. I do wish they would spin off a purely PvP star trek game though. I want to PvP, just not in this state of affairs.
So admitting that to yourself, how is it that you expect Geko or anyone else for that matter to take you seriously in a discussion when you act immaturely?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's a new year and perhaps it's a good time to start fresh on both sides of the isle. Everyone getting upset, ignoring and insulting each other hasn't solved anything.
I'm surprised, also, by so many people think being direct equals being immature. Mature people don't always sugar-coat things, and quite frankly, have an obligation to not do so (while avoiding absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic).
The statement was a cold dose of reality. The question was confronting him on how he behaved. I honestly don't care how he reacts, but I hope it leads him to a shameful epiphany.
Product design in the software business is primarily a product management function, not a marketing function. I concur with their puzzlement. :P
Product marketing (one discipline of marketing) can be a chief influencer in providing product guidance. But ultimately it's product management as the key driver.
See... I get this. But I think product management not being viewed as marketing yields an inward focus and also tends to view the game as a product rather than as a service. Regardless of whether you're talking sub or F2P, if I can't play it offline, it's more service than product.
But I also think you can look at what made WoW big. It wasn't innovation in terms of any game mechanic, although they had some happy accidents that led to some innovation (phasing tech there started out as a bug which became a feature by late Burning Crusade/Lich King and is the foundation for player housing today). In fact, lack of mechanical innovation was something that they were CONSTANTLY harassed for at Blizzard. Every major feature, from the traditional hardcore gamers' perspective, was ripped or reverse engineered from other games. I don't think I'm saying anything super-controversial or novel by saying this. They have a reputation for ripping off features, sanding them down, dumbing them down, and polishing them.
But the ripping off wasn't what made them big. What made them big (aside from sufficient capital) was their business approach. This is why they could take the exact same features other games had and generate more success with them.
Outside of very technical areas of design, Blizzard borrows a lot from outside typical software development, in particular entertainment media and entertainment products. Things like their phone support: clear connection, soothing music, 24-7 support. Things like their structure: content is king there. But largely that their product management is heavily, heavily integrated with both marketing and creative development.
It's a winning model. You can say similar for Pixar. For Apple under Steve Jobs. For Disney under much of Walt's tenure. For Marvel Studios under Kevin Feige. They weren't doing new things in many cases on the technical end. But they had a fusion of content creatives and marketing running product, in many cases actually emphasizing that OVER technical advancements -- which were often limited, deprioritized, reverse-engineered, swiped, or outsourced.
Cryptic has some of the infrastructure for that particularly with their model of what amount to mod teams working with an engine designed by a core team. But I think they're limited by the teams having a focus on mechanics and operational effectiveness (which is a self-cannibalizing focus) rather than service, polish, artistic flourish, and experience.
I feel like the whole left brained INTJ thing is GREAT for developing games pre-launch. But it needs to switch off to a right brained ENTP or ENFP style approach after launch. At launch, the product becomes a service. The software is in place. The experience is what matters from that point on. It should be a different development philosophy.
And I think Cryptic is constantly on the verge of getting this, which is what gets some people's hopes up. But, man oh man, they keep relapsing into "game designer beta testing"/"man the silos" mode.
I've no love for many of the recent decisions that the man made, but please let me state that I'm certain he does his job much better than I ever could.
I'd LOVE all that power, but I'd HATE the responsibility.
Gotta say, I'd probably avoid the forums too, in his shoes. I wouldn't go out of my way to insult folks, but I can see how it would happen.
He makes a good point about his iPhone and the frustration of dealing with the effects of other humans' decisions in our goods/services.
I'm not saying he gets a free pass for anything - I will NEVER forget (nor forgive) the fact that the old crafting material conversion mechanics literally killed my mouse, and have the receipt for the new one put aside just in case I ever meet him IRL. I wouldn't realistically expect him to honour it (nobody makes me play the game), but the conversation might be entertaining - and the footage definitely would be.
I'm just saying that it's a good reminder that this stuff is made by humans, and humans aren't perfect. And thank goodness for that too - can you imagine how dull the internet would be if we were perfect?
And his point about 'the stuff we like was probably him too' is a good one - it reminds me to try and see things in context, and to notice the things that they HAVE nailed (i.e. best F2P model I've ever seen, bar none IMHO.)
I am one of those who've poisoned the forums with my ideas and hatred here in the past (instead of using my words to make valid points, like an adult should), so I accept partial responsibility for the fact that he didn't also post it here. Yes, I'm overestimating my reach/influence there, but I feel that every little bit counts, to some degree. And to that degree, I feel guilty.
We might not be the worst forums in the world, but we're certainly far from the friendliest. And given what the IP is supposed to represent, I am more than a little ashamed of my past behaviour here.
I invite others to feel the same, but I'm not the boss here. And good thing too, because like I said - I'm certain Geko is 10 times better at his job than I could ever be.
Hard to say " worse". Definitely it would swing too far one way then too far the other. But, it is possible that by breaking things worse so e stuff that has been ignored would becomea big enough problem they absolutely have to fix it. Instead of now where it's "close enough " that they ignore things for years.
I honestly don't know if it would be better or worse. I do wish they would spin off a purely PvP star trek game though. I want to PvP, just not in this state of affairs.
In Champions, you aren't allowed to use a lot of the gimmicks they introduced in PvP. That was done to main balance within PvP itself. They didn't do that with STO, unfortunately, and I know they have the ability to. THAT'S the tragedy of PvP here, IMO.
Oh, it was truthful. That you're willing to put blinders on and attack the person who said what MANY people *felt* is absurd. That you *think* I should show a modicum of respect for someone who has proven he can't handle people who are "big meanie-pants", and treats US with disdain even when we ARE respectful is laughable.
Here's a tip for you: Truth is not always "nice." Deal with it. I don't blow sunshine and rainbows up people's butt, because that would be sheltering them from reality.
And by "US" you really refer to haters.
Since you like helpful tips: People don't really listen to what you say when you are obnoxious. They pay more attention to HOW you say it than they do WHAT you say. This applies to all communication really.
I'm surprised, also, by so many people think being direct equals being immature. Mature people don't always sugar-coat things, and quite frankly, have an obligation to not do so (while avoiding absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic).
The statement was a cold dose of reality. The question was confronting him on how he behaved. I honestly don't care how he reacts, but I hope it leads him to a shameful epiphany.
So by your own standards you are not mature as you like to indulge in absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic.
I've no love for many of the recent decisions that the man made, but please let me state that I'm certain he does his job much better than I ever could.
I'd LOVE all that power, but I'd HATE the responsibility.
Gotta say, I'd probably avoid the forums too, in his shoes. I wouldn't go out of my way to insult folks, but I can see how it would happen.
He makes a good point about his iPhone and the frustration of dealing with the effects of other humans' decisions in our goods/services.
I'm not saying he gets a free pass for anything - I will NEVER forget (nor forgive) the fact that the old crafting material conversion mechanics literally killed my mouse, and have the receipt for the new one put aside just in case I ever meet him IRL. I wouldn't realistically expect him to honour it (nobody makes me play the game), but the conversation might be entertaining - and the footage definitely would be.
I'm just saying that it's a good reminder that this stuff is made by humans, and humans aren't perfect. And thank goodness for that too - can you imagine how dull the internet would be if we were perfect?
And his point about 'the stuff we like was probably him too' is a good one - it reminds me to try and see things in context, and to notice the things that they HAVE nailed (i.e. best F2P model I've ever seen, bar none IMHO.)
I am one of those who've poisoned the forums with my ideas and hatred here in the past (instead of using my words to make valid points, like an adult should), so I accept partial responsibility for the fact that he didn't also post it here. Yes, I'm overestimating my reach/influence there, but I feel that every little bit counts, to some degree. And to that degree, I feel guilty.
We might not be the worst forums in the world, but we're certainly far from the friendliest. And given what the IP is supposed to represent, I am more than a little ashamed of my past behaviour here.
I invite others to feel the same, but I'm not the boss here. And good thing too, because like I said - I'm certain Geko is 10 times better at his job than I could ever be.
I agree. I would be negligent if I didn't admit that I, too, bare some responsibility for contributing the negativity on the forums. As you can see, though, I myself have picked up some disagreeable people, and I haven't run away from them. That said, he opened his mouth, and he needs to own it and apologize for HIS part.
I can't do his job. I'm not versed in how he does his job. I don't envy him, but I don't think he's a very capable leader if he runs off to Reddit and blames everyone else for the mistakes. Leaders accept the blame ON BEHALF of the people who work under him. After that, he can reprimand his people IN PRIVATE (doing so in public is *also* bad form).
Since you like helpful tips: People don't really listen to what you say when you are obnoxious. They pay more attention to HOW you say it than they do WHAT you say. This applies to all communication really.
You think I *enjoy* hating on people? Man, you're perverse. Also, your point needs to be made to Geko, as well.
So by your own standards you are not mature as you like to indulge in absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic.
Tell me how I have. It would be nice if you pointed to an example.
"You're an TRIBBLE$h0l3 to people who pay you"
"You can do a better job at listening to your customers"
Both are direct. One is immature and one isn't. There's no need to be confrontational or insulting when trying to have a discussion with someone and get your point across.
I think you, as many people have, missed the point. You can hardly expect people to be nice when you're continually dumping on them. Also, I didn't curse.
See... I get this. But I think product management not being viewed as marketing yields an inward focus and also tends to view the game as a product rather than as a service. Regardless of whether you're talking sub or F2P, if I can't play it offline, it's more service than product.
But I also think you can look at what made WoW big. It wasn't innovation in terms of any game mechanic, although they had some happy accidents that led to some innovation (phasing tech there started out as a bug which became a feature by late Burning Crusade/Lich King and is the foundation for player housing today). In fact, lack of mechanical innovation was something that they were CONSTANTLY harassed for at Blizzard. Every major feature, from the traditional hardcore gamers' perspective, was ripped or reverse engineered from other games. I don't think I'm saying anything super-controversial or novel by saying this. They have a reputation for ripping off features, sanding them down, dumbing them down, and polishing them.
But the ripping off wasn't what made them big. What made them big (aside from sufficient capital) was their business approach. This is why they could take the exact same features other games had and generate more success with them.
Outside of very technical areas of design, Blizzard borrows a lot from outside typical software development, in particular entertainment media and entertainment products. Things like their phone support: clear connection, soothing music, 24-7 support. Things like their structure: content is king there. But largely that their product management is heavily, heavily integrated with both marketing and creative development.
It's a winning model. You can say similar for Pixar. For Apple under Steve Jobs. For Disney under much of Walt's tenure. For Marvel Studios under Kevin Feige. They weren't doing new things in many cases on the technical end. But they had a fusion of content creatives and marketing running product, in many cases actually emphasizing that OVER technical advancements -- which were often limited, deprioritized, reverse-engineered, swiped, or outsourced.
Cryptic has some of the infrastructure for that particularly with their model of what amount to mod teams working with an engine designed by a core team. But I think they're limited by the teams having a focus on mechanics and operational effectiveness (which is a self-cannibalizing focus) rather than service, polish, artistic flourish, and experience.
I feel like the whole left brained INTJ thing is GREAT for developing games pre-launch. But it needs to switch off to a right brained ENTP or ENFP style approach after launch. At launch, the product becomes a service. The software is in place. The experience is what matters from that point on. It should be a different development philosophy.
And I think Cryptic is constantly on the verge of getting this, which is what gets some people's hopes up. But, man oh man, they keep relapsing into "game designer beta testing"/"man the silos" mode.
I wish Al had posted this here, because he's right. As much as there are systems I don't like about the game, I do still play the game, and there's enough I like (admittedly some of which are things I like such as the people I'm playing with) that I'm still here.
I am one of the people who while trying to post positive things, have also contributed towards negativity, but that's because I've been with this game literally for years, and there are few (read: no) other games I've played for years.
I don't think Al has helped the situation, he's said things which I would say are rather knowingly antagonistic. However, he's right, he's been in lead design for some time, and there are still many things in the game I like, and the same way I hold him somewhat responsible for many things I don't like about the way the game has gone, its only fair to admit, there are still things I do like being introduced, and he has as much share in the positive as the negative.
Comments
If only you could blame Atari. In this case you can't. Before Atari picked up Cryptic they promised CBS they would get them a MMO out the door before the IP contract they acquired from Perpetual hit end date. It wouldn't of mattered if Atari told Cryptic to spend another 5 years developing STO on there dime... cause CBS would have canceled the contract they had signed with Perpetual in 2004. That contract had a strict launch by date attached. Cryptic got the IP after they agreed with CBS to keep to that date.
Not sure that means we can blame Cryptic either... but perhaps. Either they told CBS no issues in regards to the date to ensure they got the work. Or you we can blame CBS for not being all that reasonable. Bottom line they developed a AAA MMO in around 2 years... with minimal work carried over from the stuff Perpetual was working on. (even if we have seen there ship designs pop up since).
The truth in regards to communication is this... Most MMO companies really don't do a ton of communication with there players. (all though most do more then Cryptic). The difference is the best developers tend to have an actual vision for there game that is somewhat artistic. Sure most of them still add cash shops and the odd grind here and there (everyone likes a bit of grind, if they are willing to admit it or not).... however yes a company like Blizzard tends to have a more long term vision for where they want there game to go. There are only really a few Developers that get it all right... but not every developer can be a CCP. (and even they have messed things up terribly here and there... still like good leaders, being able to admit you Fd up and fixing is what makes them great)
Lots of "I", "I am", "love" of the game, thoughts about the fans and sci-fi. typical trash talk to try give some personality to a computer screen avatar. i dont know the man personally so i cant state towards that point in real life, but on the computer avatar, it strikes out that the lead designer has a sheltered life in a way, call it what you will however you think i see it, but strictly from a constructive point; those who lead sheltered lives away from everything outside what can not be controlled or do not know about, they cling to the idea that everyone must like it because they do, but it never works that way. in the real world people like things that work correctly and make sense, but in a sheltered life one cant think like that mostly because sometimes such ideas are unreasonable or unpalatable for their own goals. for example someone made an idea that every feature on a game that was once free to run will now have to be tied to a dilthium sink because it gets the company big profits with a never ending source of players who buy into it and spend countless hours at it trying to find the bottom of the sink hole, but in the real world everyone else can not fathom why someone come up with such an idea for, the rest of us liked the old system because for us it worked or it was just average enough to pass along and be happy with it.
a lead designer of a game like star trek online states he does this for the fans? wrong, he does it for his wallet (like we all do for a job) and a designer who truly has feelings towards his community and a sense of loyalty and respect wouldnt go behind the games community back and stab it by going through reedit instead, which shows just how messed up it is that he goes to such lengths to post his rants and forthcoming features in so many way and fails to contribute to home base, and that is also on top of not making these news points more accessible. charity begins at home, when you have a solid community behind you (which ironically what this is about and yet somehow keeps ignoring the obvious) and then he can focus on other things with the community spreading the goodwill of the game. but all ive seen in this small corner of the overall community so far is a mixed bag of stool pigeons, fanbois and haters with no common ground besides the game itself.
while geko may have a point on the varying responses on the game and how the players only want to see the game succeed, that doesnt give the designer the idea to think that the community would like something even worse (example, delta rising "players love it", which as i recall the devs started getting fed up on). again sheltered life vs the real world.
if only he meant what he wrote about writing how sorry he is for what has happened, but what difference does that really make, would he ever go back on what he had a hand in? that just won't happen, so why write an apology for in that case?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That's not really marketing you're describing with Atari. That's advertising running production which is the tail wagging the dog. Many of the ills in the world of commerce seem to come from companies confusing advertising, sales, and marketing.
I was talking to a room filled with MBAs a few months ago and made a comment about product design being a marketing function -- which every marketing textbook since the 80s would probably agree on. And they all looked at me, puzzled.
In general, one of the quickest ways to categorize how well run a company is? Is by what they define marketing as.
A company that confuses it or houses it with advertising is often an OKAY company but rarely GREAT. You've got some real limits there imposed by that kind of thinking.
If someone tells me about their job in marketing and it turns out it's a sales job or, worse, that sales is the primary function of marketing, it seems to be a good predictor that the company they work for is in a burnt out mini mall between a pawn shop and liquor store.
Sales != Advertising != Marketing
Product marketing (one discipline of marketing) can be a chief influencer in providing product guidance. But ultimately it's product management as the key driver.
It's not really information, he's just talking about STO.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh, it was truthful. That you're willing to put blinders on and attack the person who said what MANY people *felt* is absurd. That you *think* I should show a modicum of respect for someone who has proven he can't handle people who are "big meanie-pants", and treats US with disdain even when we ARE respectful is laughable.
Here's a tip for you: Truth is not always "nice." Deal with it. I don't blow sunshine and rainbows up people's butt, because that would be sheltering them from reality.
If he and I were in the same room, I'd tell him the same thing. Stop treating him with kid-gloves. He doesn't like you, either.
Umm, yeah. Given past experience, I didn't expect that. Nice try, though.
How is telling him he's earned the disdain of the community by insulting us and ignoring some really good and necessary feedback "acting like a child?" I'd really like to know. No one's ever been able to tell me WHY I was wrong, just that I'm wrong.
And chalk it up to ANOTHER thing he claims to be right about. I've stopped counting the ways.
THIS...?
or maybe it's just THIS.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I would totally support STO dropping PVP. Never liked it, and not a fan of those that do.
Your feedback is valuable. Tell me where I went wrong, benevolent one!
THANK YOU! I was irked by his comment about how Reddit was polite due to the moderation. If I were Smirk or Trendy, I'd be mad as hell for him saying that!
Sorry if you think being blunt is being immature and an "obnoxious brat". I was never good at diplomacy, and I don;t say things unless I feel they need to be said. If you don't like my style, then I apologize, but he needs to get over himself.
Well, yes. :P
Considering how neglected PvP is, they might as well drop it. If it weren't for PvP, though, this game's power creep would have been INFINITELY (and I exaggerate just a tad :P) worse. Geko was the math guy for a long time, and his calculations were... a little "off"... shall we say? :eek:
Hard to say " worse". Definitely it would swing too far one way then too far the other. But, it is possible that by breaking things worse so e stuff that has been ignored would becomea big enough problem they absolutely have to fix it. Instead of now where it's "close enough " that they ignore things for years.
I honestly don't know if it would be better or worse. I do wish they would spin off a purely PvP star trek game though. I want to PvP, just not in this state of affairs.
I'm surprised, also, by so many people think being direct equals being immature. Mature people don't always sugar-coat things, and quite frankly, have an obligation to not do so (while avoiding absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic).
The statement was a cold dose of reality. The question was confronting him on how he behaved. I honestly don't care how he reacts, but I hope it leads him to a shameful epiphany.
See... I get this. But I think product management not being viewed as marketing yields an inward focus and also tends to view the game as a product rather than as a service. Regardless of whether you're talking sub or F2P, if I can't play it offline, it's more service than product.
But I also think you can look at what made WoW big. It wasn't innovation in terms of any game mechanic, although they had some happy accidents that led to some innovation (phasing tech there started out as a bug which became a feature by late Burning Crusade/Lich King and is the foundation for player housing today). In fact, lack of mechanical innovation was something that they were CONSTANTLY harassed for at Blizzard. Every major feature, from the traditional hardcore gamers' perspective, was ripped or reverse engineered from other games. I don't think I'm saying anything super-controversial or novel by saying this. They have a reputation for ripping off features, sanding them down, dumbing them down, and polishing them.
But the ripping off wasn't what made them big. What made them big (aside from sufficient capital) was their business approach. This is why they could take the exact same features other games had and generate more success with them.
Outside of very technical areas of design, Blizzard borrows a lot from outside typical software development, in particular entertainment media and entertainment products. Things like their phone support: clear connection, soothing music, 24-7 support. Things like their structure: content is king there. But largely that their product management is heavily, heavily integrated with both marketing and creative development.
It's a winning model. You can say similar for Pixar. For Apple under Steve Jobs. For Disney under much of Walt's tenure. For Marvel Studios under Kevin Feige. They weren't doing new things in many cases on the technical end. But they had a fusion of content creatives and marketing running product, in many cases actually emphasizing that OVER technical advancements -- which were often limited, deprioritized, reverse-engineered, swiped, or outsourced.
Cryptic has some of the infrastructure for that particularly with their model of what amount to mod teams working with an engine designed by a core team. But I think they're limited by the teams having a focus on mechanics and operational effectiveness (which is a self-cannibalizing focus) rather than service, polish, artistic flourish, and experience.
I feel like the whole left brained INTJ thing is GREAT for developing games pre-launch. But it needs to switch off to a right brained ENTP or ENFP style approach after launch. At launch, the product becomes a service. The software is in place. The experience is what matters from that point on. It should be a different development philosophy.
And I think Cryptic is constantly on the verge of getting this, which is what gets some people's hopes up. But, man oh man, they keep relapsing into "game designer beta testing"/"man the silos" mode.
I'd LOVE all that power, but I'd HATE the responsibility.
Gotta say, I'd probably avoid the forums too, in his shoes. I wouldn't go out of my way to insult folks, but I can see how it would happen.
He makes a good point about his iPhone and the frustration of dealing with the effects of other humans' decisions in our goods/services.
I'm not saying he gets a free pass for anything - I will NEVER forget (nor forgive) the fact that the old crafting material conversion mechanics literally killed my mouse, and have the receipt for the new one put aside just in case I ever meet him IRL. I wouldn't realistically expect him to honour it (nobody makes me play the game), but the conversation might be entertaining - and the footage definitely would be.
I'm just saying that it's a good reminder that this stuff is made by humans, and humans aren't perfect. And thank goodness for that too - can you imagine how dull the internet would be if we were perfect?
And his point about 'the stuff we like was probably him too' is a good one - it reminds me to try and see things in context, and to notice the things that they HAVE nailed (i.e. best F2P model I've ever seen, bar none IMHO.)
I am one of those who've poisoned the forums with my ideas and hatred here in the past (instead of using my words to make valid points, like an adult should), so I accept partial responsibility for the fact that he didn't also post it here. Yes, I'm overestimating my reach/influence there, but I feel that every little bit counts, to some degree. And to that degree, I feel guilty.
We might not be the worst forums in the world, but we're certainly far from the friendliest. And given what the IP is supposed to represent, I am more than a little ashamed of my past behaviour here.
I invite others to feel the same, but I'm not the boss here. And good thing too, because like I said - I'm certain Geko is 10 times better at his job than I could ever be.
In Champions, you aren't allowed to use a lot of the gimmicks they introduced in PvP. That was done to main balance within PvP itself. They didn't do that with STO, unfortunately, and I know they have the ability to. THAT'S the tragedy of PvP here, IMO.
Since you like helpful tips: People don't really listen to what you say when you are obnoxious. They pay more attention to HOW you say it than they do WHAT you say. This applies to all communication really. So by your own standards you are not mature as you like to indulge in absurd hyperbole and leaps of logic.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree. I would be negligent if I didn't admit that I, too, bare some responsibility for contributing the negativity on the forums. As you can see, though, I myself have picked up some disagreeable people, and I haven't run away from them. That said, he opened his mouth, and he needs to own it and apologize for HIS part.
I can't do his job. I'm not versed in how he does his job. I don't envy him, but I don't think he's a very capable leader if he runs off to Reddit and blames everyone else for the mistakes. Leaders accept the blame ON BEHALF of the people who work under him. After that, he can reprimand his people IN PRIVATE (doing so in public is *also* bad form).
Just my 2 cents.
You think I *enjoy* hating on people? Man, you're perverse. Also, your point needs to be made to Geko, as well.
Tell me how I have. It would be nice if you pointed to an example.
I think you, as many people have, missed the point. You can hardly expect people to be nice when you're continually dumping on them. Also, I didn't curse.
I suspect you are right on with this assessment.
I am one of the people who while trying to post positive things, have also contributed towards negativity, but that's because I've been with this game literally for years, and there are few (read: no) other games I've played for years.
I don't think Al has helped the situation, he's said things which I would say are rather knowingly antagonistic. However, he's right, he's been in lead design for some time, and there are still many things in the game I like, and the same way I hold him somewhat responsible for many things I don't like about the way the game has gone, its only fair to admit, there are still things I do like being introduced, and he has as much share in the positive as the negative.