We need a zero tolerance rule for badmouthing the forums on the forums. No amount of critically applied negativity can ever make a forum into a cesspool. You know what can make a forum turn sour though?
Calling out the whole forum. White knighting. Equating 40-50% negativity with absolute negativity. Having a limited tolerance for whining.
If there weren't so many people here trying to play goalie on people trying to express emotion, trying to regulate or belittle the negative emotions of others.
I would enjoy this game and this community so much more if we didn't have people who blow a gasket every time people get negative about the game or the developers. That behavior drags down the enjoyability and the quality of the game and the community.
If I have an issue with the game and somebody tries to shut down or belittle that issue, that issue only becomes bigger and more infuriating for me.
This exact same game would be considerably more enjoyable and easier to take in if it didn't have people combating every last criticism of it. If I can express my sentiment civilly, cool beans. If people try to shut out a complaint I register or equate it with whining, I have to raise my voice and I have to keep raising my voice until everyone stops playing defense and lets me register my complaint in peace.
Quite possibly the most inspiring post of the thread. Bravo.
I agree that its sad but if HE and the rest of the devs show the community (the people that may their bills) with respect they deserve and are more open; I would say that a lot of hate would go out the window at warp speed mabey not that fast but when you do something you know will peev the community off and then ask then NOT to rage that is alienation and disrespect.
TOR is a f2p and I don't see anywere near the hate for its devs as I do here and they can keep the money rolling in and the community happy so why can't cryptic?
CVN-65 U.S.S. Enterprise - A ship so badass it survived John McCain.
We need more communication towards the player base. Fine, that is an opinion I can accept.
What is impossible to accept is that a Dev should do the communication.
A Dev, as the name says, develops and designs. He is basically a backstage guy. He doesn't even have to do some programming or art (if the company is big enough). So he does not belong in the forums. Point. That's it.
I saw the first post as something of a public service announcement.
"Hey, Geko posted on Reddit! Here's what he wrote:"
Since then, this whole thread has been a derail over the fact he posted there and not here.
Where people who actively and repeatedly say they don't like him, and deconstruct anything he says in the worst possible light, turn around and roast him for not posting here. This is a logical disconnect at best.
Y'know, I'm actually slightly annoyed that Devs post tidbits on Reddit that don't make it to the forums. I don't want to use Reddit; I'm already on SocM Overload and don't need one more feed. On the other hand, they do sometimes use Twitter, which I do use when I feel like it. So I can't really complain about it. I choose not to use Reddit and if I miss non-critical information as a result that's my problem.
If it's really important, critical information, I fully expect to see a link to a news item in either ARC or on the launcher itself. Most of the time, it's there. Only rarely do they fail to mention really important information via those channels. And in most of those cases, the forums usually have a link to those news items too.
I'm not overlooking that there have been some catastrophic fails, too. I've been right in the middle of the fallout from those incidents. But most of the time, the official news makes its way to the website one way or the other.
When the Devs post anything, anywhere, that goes beyond the official stuff they use the mediums they prefer. One might use Twitter and Flickr. Another might use Reddit and DeviantArt. Tacofangs, for some twisted masochistic reason, likes to post here. Nothing wrong with that.
As much as people praise Tacofangs for posting on the forums, I can't help but notice the flip side that he takes his share of guff from people ready to pounce on anything he says that they don't like.
So Geko made a personal post over on Reddit. Cool. I don't post every single personal comment here, either.
So, all that said, if you guys want to have a calm discussion about the post... have at it. If people want to keep sniping each other over it, I can close the thread. That's fine with me, too.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
We need more communication towards the player base. Fine, that is an opinion I can accept.
What is impossible to accept is that a Dev should do the communication.
A Dev, as the name says, develops and designs. He is basically a backstage guy. He doesn't even have to do some programming or art (if the company is big enough). So he does not belong in the forums. Point. That's it.
Well I'd really like to agree with you here ... but if the same DEV is constantly speaking on Podcasts etc, dismissing the Forums as "Whiny Morons" (not my words) ... he isn't really a "Backstage Guy" anymore ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Yet another example of how the designers of this game don't communicate or listen to there player base.... they wont even post in there own forum... sad
Again, the people on reddit, that talk about Star Trek Online - they are part of the player base. Even if this is the official forum of Star Trek Online, it is not the only place where the "Player base" can go to talk about it. We're not some special gifted people, carefully selected as representatives of the player base.
We're just players of the game that chose to talk about the game on the official forums, instead of reddit or Facebook or Google+ or whatever.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
A few days ago Geko posted a rather long post about the game, and his position as Lead Designer. As long as some discussion about the Excelsior (don't ask).
Unfortunately, it was on REDDIT, and not on the forum.
Since it might be interesting for everyone, I'm quoting the entire post, and providing the link to the Reddit post. As for the context, someone saw a Captain Gecko ingame, and was wondering if it was him.
Am I the only one who think it's a bit sad to have the Lead Designer posting on a non official forum instead of the official forum ? Someone had a quite similar question, and I don't think he was ever officially answered (topic closed), where he said a friend of his was banned 3 days for having "Geko" as a name, not knowing why he was banned (it seems geko is a word in some Slavic country or something).
Anyway, I hope you'll stay civil, I thought this was worth reading for any STO player.
Before I read this, knowing the feelings of the players on the forums and the near-unanimous desire for increased communication, WHY wouldn't he post this here?
EDIT: now that I have read it, what a load of bs... sorry Geko, if you're reading this, but come on! The entire post screamed of "The players hate me and are being mean, but I'm really a good guy, honest!" and nothing more.
For the record, I don't hate Geko or anyone at Cryptic. I do appreciate the work it takes to bring this game to us. However, that in no way means that bugs, glitches and content issues should be continuously ignored, nor does it mean that the entire DEV team (save maybe 1 or 2) avoid the forums like the plague and refuse to actually talk with the playerbase.
If I perform poorly at work it is a reflection of me, obviously, but also a reflection on my boss. If the game is not in a good state that, my friend, is solely your responsibility as Lead Designer.
I will go on record, happily, that the WORST thing to happen to STO was the move from sub to F2P. I love F2P games, I really do, but not MMORPGS. Once they make the transition from pay to free the entire thing starts to go downhill fast as it always, ALWAYS, becomes about the money (i.e. those microtransactions youve mentioned). More and more focus is placed on making these transactions more appealing and more needed than the game itself. Ultimately, its an insult not only to the players and fan of the genre but the devs that actually do work hard on the artwork, etc. that makes the game alive.
I love Star Trek. I love my fleet and I miss not running around with them, but it is getting harder and harder to actually log in to STO for any longer than what it takes to boost my R&D schools.
I apologize if any of this offends, but the state of the game at the moment is like a man desperately trying to claw their way out of a pit whist wearing oven mitts. The balls in your court, Geko are you going to just hold on to it or are you going to actually surprise us?
Before I read this, knowing the feelings of the players on the forums and the near-unanimous desire for increased communication, WHY wouldn't he post this here?
Again, the people on reddit, that talk about Star Trek Online - they are part of the player base. Even if this is the official forum of Star Trek Online, it is not the only place where the "Player base" can go to talk about it. We're not some special gifted people, carefully selected as representatives of the player base.
We're just players of the game that chose to talk about the game on the official forums, instead of reddit or Facebook or Google+ or whatever.
And again (for 10000 times) he can post where he wants, we all know that he dont like to be criticized or resive any feedback.
Because the post he was replying to was on Reddit and not here?
Yes, but is intresting that he reply things from reddit and all the millions of valid questions and feedback from the official forums are ignored. Is clear that he hate feedback and valid game questions, that is why he visist the podcast that loves Cryptic and make him easy questions or why he (and most devs) evade the official forum.
I liked his post.
I dont mind if he posted to the relevant thread and not here.
If he posted here...well, some of you have no mercy.
And this wasnt really forum material. This looks like something he did in his own time. I actually don't think that his post is appropriate for these forums, as they discuss his personal feelings on the game.
The devs should remain proffesional in these forums. Only posting bulletins, updates or relevant news.
They are not required to answer to disgruntled forumites.
And yes, he, as with any of us, can post wherever we want. However, to intentionally ignore the forums for the very game of which you speak in an effort to avoid negative feedback is the act of a desperate and dishonoroable man.
If that offends, I offer him the opportunity to prove me wrong.
Since then, this whole thread has been a derail over the fact he posted there and not here.
Where people who actively and repeatedly say they don't like him, and deconstruct anything he says in the worst possible light, turn around and roast him for not posting here. This is a logical disconnect at best.
This was related to the point I was trying to make early in the thread that it IS possible to have a civil conversation with Geko--EVEN when he missteps and even when you still greatly disagree with him. It seems, however, that a lot of people (probably the majority of the forum) does not believe it.
Personally I am a believer in modeling the sort of behavior you want to see from others--*especially* in the case of someone who might not be the most sensitive to social subtleties or the effects their words may intentionally OR unintentionally have, this is especially important since that sort of mindset can be more likely to "respond in kind," for better or for worse. That is not an *excuse* for the missteps but it IS something that can productively help the situation: modeling a more mindful/attentive sort of behavior, and addressing remarks with potential to be taken badly by explaining the potential problem calmly and without telling the other person what they MUST mean.
It WORKS.
I have no hesitation about telling Geko what systems I dislike and why I think they are a problem. But I do not see a reason to make a demon out of him. It helps NONE of us. This is not called white-knighting. It's called *civilized* disagreement.
As much as people praise Tacofangs for posting on the forums, I can't help but notice the flip side that he takes his share of guff from people ready to pounce on anything he says that they don't like.
And for that, even Taco himself has suggested the "This looks as though it could mean ________. Could you explain what you mean by that?" strategy.
And I think when we get the answer to that question we should try to take it at face value at least insofar as the *nature of the person.* I am not saying one has to like the business decision (God knows I have my issues!), the company, or even like the person, but going and assuming someone's the proverbial spawn of Satan and HATES us all is incredibly uncalled for.
"But Geko has said some nasty things!"
A) I don't like those things but I am also not in his head or his private life. I remember one incident with Dan Stahl that turned out to be directly attributable to being worried sick and being up way too late at night with an ill daughter. I can dislike the behavior without passing judgment on the whole person.
Why should I toss more fuel on the fire and set the precedent of a TRIBBLE-for-tat flame war? Why shouldn't I set an example of the kind of treatment I want to see, and discuss problems with kindness? Trust me, you don't see all of me here on the forums and when I fail, I do an EPIC fail, and I pay the consequences in spades for breaking that rule. And when I do, even if the other person really WAS at fault, the vitriolic, wildly out-of-control does NOTHING but hurt everyone and gets exactly nothing accomplished...and most often leaves matters worse than I found them before I let my temper get the best of me. Trust me. Don't make this mistake. It's not worth it and a little self-control can go a long way.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I saw the first post as something of a public service announcement.
"Hey, Geko posted on Reddit! Here's what he wrote:"
Since then, this whole thread has been a derail over the fact he posted there and not here.
Where people who actively and repeatedly say they don't like him, and deconstruct anything he says in the worst possible light, turn around and roast him for not posting here. This is a logical disconnect at best.
Y'know, I'm actually slightly annoyed that Devs post tidbits on Reddit that don't make it to the forums. I don't want to use Reddit; I'm already on SocM Overload and don't need one more feed. On the other hand, they do sometimes use Twitter, which I do use when I feel like it. So I can't really complain about it. I choose not to use Reddit and if I miss non-critical information as a result that's my problem.
If it's really important, critical information, I fully expect to see a link to a news item in either ARC or on the launcher itself. Most of the time, it's there. Only rarely do they fail to mention really important information via those channels. And in most of those cases, the forums usually have a link to those news items too.
I'm not overlooking that there have been some catastrophic fails, too. I've been right in the middle of the fallout from those incidents. But most of the time, the official news makes its way to the website one way or the other.
When the Devs post anything, anywhere, that goes beyond the official stuff they use the mediums they prefer. One might use Twitter and Flickr. Another might use Reddit and DeviantArt. Tacofangs, for some twisted masochistic reason, likes to post here. Nothing wrong with that.
As much as people praise Tacofangs for posting on the forums, I can't help but notice the flip side that he takes his share of guff from people ready to pounce on anything he says that they don't like.
So Geko made a personal post over on Reddit. Cool. I don't post every single personal comment here, either.
So, all that said, if you guys want to have a calm discussion about the post... have at it. If people want to keep sniping each other over it, I can close the thread. That's fine with me, too.
~sigh~
Here is the entire issue as I see it, BG:
TacoFangs steps into the lions den and risks his fair share of chomps as he delivers news and communicates. He is respected by the community for this even of not all of us agree with what he is saying.
Geko, knowing the lions bite, slips off to another arena and posts his comments where he is fully aware the lions there have been, for the most part, declawed, defanged and fixed rather than sharing ANY information with those who hunger for it the most.
Of these two, who commands more respect?
To be honest I couldnt give two poops about how Geko (or any dev) feels personally about any negative feedback on the state of the game other than the fact if they feel bad about it they should work to fix it. The average player isnt stupid; we know that not all issues can be fixed and not all fixable issues can be resolved immediately, with the wave of a magic wand. However, when we are left in the dark regarding the MULTITUDE of issues raised, watching as age-old bugs are ignored and often carried over from the test servers to live while new content is released or things that arent actually broken are fixed (in a purely veterinarian sense of the word) the average player is going to become irate, disgruntled, and angry. The Lions den is no more. Now it is a hornets nest.
Gekos actions have stirred the nest as badly as if he took a swing with a baseball bat. All we want, even more than an actual fix, is communication!! Talk to us. Tell us that although not everything can be fixed right away, here are the issues being addressed sooner rather than later. No, one can not please everyone at once and yes, any Dev willing to poke their heads into the forums are at risk of a vicious attack to their pride. Guess what? ALL OF US ARE. Every post someone makes here falls under scrutiny and risks attack by those same lions. As a ComMod you know this is true.
Do I hate Geko? No. I dont know the man (or woman) so how can I possibly hate them or any Dev/Mod for that matter? Do I respect Geko? No. As long as he/she shies away from the forums to post a boo-hoo poor me open letter in what is perceived as safer waters rather than own up to their position and communicate with the player base I have no respect for them. For that to change, it is entirely up to Geko.
"Unfortunately, it was on REDDIT, and not on the forum." Something developers do when they know they've done something wrong.
Arenanet started doing that several times when they knew they didn't give the forums proper attention as well. People started to ask where does one go to get the devs attention when they don't listen to their own forums.
I would suggest all players who have concerns for the game begin posting on Reddit to give them no place to hide. It's the best policy and it brings things to light that some people on the web have no idea what's going on like the nerf to rewards which their PR group will most likely take very seriously as they do still have the goal of attracting new players. If new players see that there are some controversial games being played against the playerbase they'll beging to think twice about logging.
And Gecko you're not the one I blame for the fiascos of the game, D'Angelo is. You need stronger management someone who will admit when they have made a serious mistake like accusing players who are simply playing your game normally of exploiting, and who will not try to experiment on a live system with the market or progression costs but who will enhance the game to make it more fun in an already established perfect example of a Free to Play model that I'd suggest you and D'Angelo take a long hard look at to determine just where you've all gone wrong with this design in dilithium rising.
Rift
Please stop all attempts in the future of making this game more like Archeage, GW2, and NWO so that this game can be restored to it's proper glory in which the aspects of progression meant as much and were as available to achieve in a timely manner as any part of the story in STO.
Because until then I'm sure you'll find that more and more people like me will be saying harsher and harsher things until these changes are met. It's great that you like what you're doing but you have to look at the bigger picture and it's no secret that when devs do testing of their own they often have dev powers turned on which eliminates the ability of looking at things in the perspective of the players.
Here's to hoping that something positive comes out of this studio in 2015 because if not, that's fine, I'm young enough to wait for the next studio to get this IP.
Totally respect everything you just said right there, and the way you said it.
I believe you when you say that all you want is communication when things go awry. I feel the same way.
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
I would be amused, if I weren't so disgusted and saddened by it.
"Don't it always seem to go. That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone."
There may well come a day when somebody posts about how good we had it when Geko was Lead Designer. That'll be a sad, sad day indeed.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
well, at least erei1 was able to bring the post to the forums, but it's just a video game, if we want them to post we can't flood them and attack them when they do.
Not meant to be a "zinger". It's an observation that I fervently hope never turns into a prophesy.
Two guys, unquestionably both devout Star Trek fans. Dan and Al. Dan's not EP anymore and (some) people miss him. D'Angelo might or might not be a fan, dunno, but he's certainly not vocally geeky about Trek.
I don't want to ever see what happens when they put somebody who sees nothing but dollar signs and never once saw TOS or TNG in the Lead Designer role.
No, Geko is not perfect. And I don't like all of the decisions, whether they were his, the team's, or some faceless manager's. It COULD be worse.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
This ain't Sunday School, and we certainly aren't priests.
This is business. A business, which involves transactions of fairly large amounts of money, and a service that is requiring increasing amounts of that money for very little return.
Do you honestly expect people to sit back and smile over a cup of tea while watching their money circle the drain faster and faster? While the people taking said money show increasing hostility and resentment toward the people giving them that money?
To quote the Black Widow..."You just might be in the wrong business Rogers."
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game. To be dismissed because of my anger or frustration certainly does nothing to relieve that anger and frustration. Rather, it fuels it.
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
But, I know when my business is no longer valued, and the company I do business with doesn't want my money. I will happily give that money to your competitors who see fit to value me as a customer, and not see me as the enemy.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game.
I did feel upset and sad a bit with a few things myself when DR launched, don't really feel that toward anyone of them now, I actually played a little bit today, maybe S10 will bring us all something fun, money wise, they have serious bills, some of the stuff was understandable though.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
We need a zero tolerance rule for badmouthing the forums on the forums. No amount of critically applied negativity can ever make a forum into a cesspool. You know what can make a forum turn sour though?
Calling out the whole forum. White knighting. Equating 40-50% negativity with absolute negativity. Having a limited tolerance for whining.
If there weren't so many people here trying to play goalie on people trying to express emotion, trying to regulate or belittle the negative emotions of others.
I would enjoy this game and this community so much more if we didn't have people who blow a gasket every time people get negative about the game or the developers. That behavior drags down the enjoyability and the quality of the game and the community.
If I have an issue with the game and somebody tries to shut down or belittle that issue, that issue only becomes bigger and more infuriating for me.
This exact same game would be considerably more enjoyable and easier to take in if it didn't have people combating every last criticism of it. If I can express my sentiment civilly, cool beans. If people try to shut out a complaint I register or equate it with whining, I have to raise my voice and I have to keep raising my voice until everyone stops playing defense and lets me register my complaint in peace.
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words. This is the main reason I've been mostly avoiding the forum lately and will probably continue to do so in the future.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words. This is the main reason I've been mostly avoiding the forum lately and will probably continue to do so in the future.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I am not referring to you.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
Geko did no wrong posting this on Reddit, which is where the question was fielded. I noted that I wasn't surprised he did, as Reddit has a different flavor than the forums do.
Nor am I calling for his head or waving a pitchfork (and I am aware you were not speaking of me). However, I have this ugly tendency to call a trowel-shaped gardening instrument what it is rather than some euphemistic language.
He is hardly competent at what he is purported to be in charge of. Yes, we had disagreements with Dan. Yes, he took more flak.
But he made the effort, even with how much (often unfair) abuse he took. He made the effort to justify why you had to jump through the hoops, and there are people today who still defend him because whether he was effective or not, or you liked him or not, he was at least TRYING.
This guy? He is using the excuse that there's some people on the forums who are immature and trolling to disregard all feedback, then turns around on Reddit and claims that he'd doing the best he can.
I find that ... disingenuous , at best. But perhaps I am cynical.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
This is true. To a degree.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
Most of the bashing of 'positive thought' that occurred happened when these same white knights attempted to justify things that were flatly wrong (promising not to go F2P and kicking off a lifetime subscriber sale, then going to F2P less than a month later, for example). In the end, anyone talking in a positive light about Cryptic found their positions supported by these white knights, which ended up drawing heavy fire from those sick of their TRIBBLE.
The end result is, of course, dysfunction on a massive scale, and a number of well-meaning intelligent individuals rendered voiceless amidst a sea of screaming.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I can only speak for myself but that in my case is completely untrue. If you have any questions on this, you are welcome to read the DR review linked in my signature. If you read it all, I think my position on both the game and personal conduct will be quite clear. Which in a nutshell is that yes, I can hold both the expectation of civil conduct AND candid disagreement with the direction of the game at the same time without any cognitive dissonance.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
It got a lot of people, and it lingers about, now even trying to be funny things get messed up.
It is what it is now
For the most part I sympathize with the position he is in. It speaks volumes in that he could not post it here, his choice to use reddit as his forum was likely one where he would face a more respectful audience.
It's not just my fault / It is my fault / I report to people too.
I've lost track of how many time's I have heard that complaint during a project post-morten. People with positions several paygrades removed make decisions we as developers have to implement, regardless of the unintended consequences.
It sucks.
He has to work with a 5-year old platform that suffers from bad planning, high staff turn overs, poor documentation and a fixed release schedule - regardless of the problems found in testing.
It sucks big time.
He has to contend with a very vocal fan base that has little tolerance for the slightest errors.
I feel for the guy.
Question:So who do I direct my complaints to? I am a paying customer. QA can't listen. Support doesn't return my emails. I still don't have some of the items I paid for. The game was effectively broken upon release, taking 5 weeks to solve loadouts for many. FIVE WEEKS. And don't get me started on the petri-dish experiments with XP and progression.
If not CaptainGecko, then who takes responsibility for a terrible rollout? This isn't a mission-critical service. People don't die if the game doesn't work. But it is a business, and someone should take responsibility for its performance.
When your told to do something your know is detrimental or wrong, your role as a professional is to provide and demonstrate alternatives that can achieve the new requirements with minimal disruption to your client base.
Comments
Quite possibly the most inspiring post of the thread. Bravo.
TOR is a f2p and I don't see anywere near the hate for its devs as I do here and they can keep the money rolling in and the community happy so why can't cryptic?
What is impossible to accept is that a Dev should do the communication.
A Dev, as the name says, develops and designs. He is basically a backstage guy. He doesn't even have to do some programming or art (if the company is big enough). So he does not belong in the forums. Point. That's it.
"Hey, Geko posted on Reddit! Here's what he wrote:"
Since then, this whole thread has been a derail over the fact he posted there and not here.
Where people who actively and repeatedly say they don't like him, and deconstruct anything he says in the worst possible light, turn around and roast him for not posting here. This is a logical disconnect at best.
Y'know, I'm actually slightly annoyed that Devs post tidbits on Reddit that don't make it to the forums. I don't want to use Reddit; I'm already on SocM Overload and don't need one more feed. On the other hand, they do sometimes use Twitter, which I do use when I feel like it. So I can't really complain about it. I choose not to use Reddit and if I miss non-critical information as a result that's my problem.
If it's really important, critical information, I fully expect to see a link to a news item in either ARC or on the launcher itself. Most of the time, it's there. Only rarely do they fail to mention really important information via those channels. And in most of those cases, the forums usually have a link to those news items too.
I'm not overlooking that there have been some catastrophic fails, too. I've been right in the middle of the fallout from those incidents. But most of the time, the official news makes its way to the website one way or the other.
When the Devs post anything, anywhere, that goes beyond the official stuff they use the mediums they prefer. One might use Twitter and Flickr. Another might use Reddit and DeviantArt. Tacofangs, for some twisted masochistic reason, likes to post here.
As much as people praise Tacofangs for posting on the forums, I can't help but notice the flip side that he takes his share of guff from people ready to pounce on anything he says that they don't like.
So Geko made a personal post over on Reddit. Cool. I don't post every single personal comment here, either.
So, all that said, if you guys want to have a calm discussion about the post... have at it. If people want to keep sniping each other over it, I can close the thread. That's fine with me, too.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Well I'd really like to agree with you here ... but if the same DEV is constantly speaking on Podcasts etc, dismissing the Forums as "Whiny Morons" (not my words) ... he isn't really a "Backstage Guy" anymore ...
Again, the people on reddit, that talk about Star Trek Online - they are part of the player base. Even if this is the official forum of Star Trek Online, it is not the only place where the "Player base" can go to talk about it. We're not some special gifted people, carefully selected as representatives of the player base.
We're just players of the game that chose to talk about the game on the official forums, instead of reddit or Facebook or Google+ or whatever.
Before I read this, knowing the feelings of the players on the forums and the near-unanimous desire for increased communication, WHY wouldn't he post this here?
EDIT: now that I have read it, what a load of bs... sorry Geko, if you're reading this, but come on! The entire post screamed of "The players hate me and are being mean, but I'm really a good guy, honest!" and nothing more.
For the record, I don't hate Geko or anyone at Cryptic. I do appreciate the work it takes to bring this game to us. However, that in no way means that bugs, glitches and content issues should be continuously ignored, nor does it mean that the entire DEV team (save maybe 1 or 2) avoid the forums like the plague and refuse to actually talk with the playerbase.
If I perform poorly at work it is a reflection of me, obviously, but also a reflection on my boss. If the game is not in a good state that, my friend, is solely your responsibility as Lead Designer.
I will go on record, happily, that the WORST thing to happen to STO was the move from sub to F2P. I love F2P games, I really do, but not MMORPGS. Once they make the transition from pay to free the entire thing starts to go downhill fast as it always, ALWAYS, becomes about the money (i.e. those microtransactions youve mentioned). More and more focus is placed on making these transactions more appealing and more needed than the game itself. Ultimately, its an insult not only to the players and fan of the genre but the devs that actually do work hard on the artwork, etc. that makes the game alive.
I love Star Trek. I love my fleet and I miss not running around with them, but it is getting harder and harder to actually log in to STO for any longer than what it takes to boost my R&D schools.
I apologize if any of this offends, but the state of the game at the moment is like a man desperately trying to claw their way out of a pit whist wearing oven mitts. The balls in your court, Geko are you going to just hold on to it or are you going to actually surprise us?
Because he can bask in the glory of the Upvote
Free Tibet!
And again (for 10000 times) he can post where he wants, we all know that he dont like to be criticized or resive any feedback.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes, but is intresting that he reply things from reddit and all the millions of valid questions and feedback from the official forums are ignored. Is clear that he hate feedback and valid game questions, that is why he visist the podcast that loves Cryptic and make him easy questions or why he (and most devs) evade the official forum.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I dont mind if he posted to the relevant thread and not here.
If he posted here...well, some of you have no mercy.
And this wasnt really forum material. This looks like something he did in his own time. I actually don't think that his post is appropriate for these forums, as they discuss his personal feelings on the game.
The devs should remain proffesional in these forums. Only posting bulletins, updates or relevant news.
They are not required to answer to disgruntled forumites.
This would be funny if it weren't true...
And yes, he, as with any of us, can post wherever we want. However, to intentionally ignore the forums for the very game of which you speak in an effort to avoid negative feedback is the act of a desperate and dishonoroable man.
If that offends, I offer him the opportunity to prove me wrong.
That would actually be awesome if it was.. well.. done and with any regularity.
This was related to the point I was trying to make early in the thread that it IS possible to have a civil conversation with Geko--EVEN when he missteps and even when you still greatly disagree with him. It seems, however, that a lot of people (probably the majority of the forum) does not believe it.
Personally I am a believer in modeling the sort of behavior you want to see from others--*especially* in the case of someone who might not be the most sensitive to social subtleties or the effects their words may intentionally OR unintentionally have, this is especially important since that sort of mindset can be more likely to "respond in kind," for better or for worse. That is not an *excuse* for the missteps but it IS something that can productively help the situation: modeling a more mindful/attentive sort of behavior, and addressing remarks with potential to be taken badly by explaining the potential problem calmly and without telling the other person what they MUST mean.
It WORKS.
I have no hesitation about telling Geko what systems I dislike and why I think they are a problem. But I do not see a reason to make a demon out of him. It helps NONE of us. This is not called white-knighting. It's called *civilized* disagreement.
And for that, even Taco himself has suggested the "This looks as though it could mean ________. Could you explain what you mean by that?" strategy.
And I think when we get the answer to that question we should try to take it at face value at least insofar as the *nature of the person.* I am not saying one has to like the business decision (God knows I have my issues!), the company, or even like the person, but going and assuming someone's the proverbial spawn of Satan and HATES us all is incredibly uncalled for.
"But Geko has said some nasty things!"
A) I don't like those things but I am also not in his head or his private life. I remember one incident with Dan Stahl that turned out to be directly attributable to being worried sick and being up way too late at night with an ill daughter. I can dislike the behavior without passing judgment on the whole person.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
~sigh~
Here is the entire issue as I see it, BG:
TacoFangs steps into the lions den and risks his fair share of chomps as he delivers news and communicates. He is respected by the community for this even of not all of us agree with what he is saying.
Geko, knowing the lions bite, slips off to another arena and posts his comments where he is fully aware the lions there have been, for the most part, declawed, defanged and fixed rather than sharing ANY information with those who hunger for it the most.
Of these two, who commands more respect?
To be honest I couldnt give two poops about how Geko (or any dev) feels personally about any negative feedback on the state of the game other than the fact if they feel bad about it they should work to fix it. The average player isnt stupid; we know that not all issues can be fixed and not all fixable issues can be resolved immediately, with the wave of a magic wand. However, when we are left in the dark regarding the MULTITUDE of issues raised, watching as age-old bugs are ignored and often carried over from the test servers to live while new content is released or things that arent actually broken are fixed (in a purely veterinarian sense of the word) the average player is going to become irate, disgruntled, and angry. The Lions den is no more. Now it is a hornets nest.
Gekos actions have stirred the nest as badly as if he took a swing with a baseball bat. All we want, even more than an actual fix, is communication!! Talk to us. Tell us that although not everything can be fixed right away, here are the issues being addressed sooner rather than later. No, one can not please everyone at once and yes, any Dev willing to poke their heads into the forums are at risk of a vicious attack to their pride. Guess what? ALL OF US ARE. Every post someone makes here falls under scrutiny and risks attack by those same lions. As a ComMod you know this is true.
Do I hate Geko? No. I dont know the man (or woman) so how can I possibly hate them or any Dev/Mod for that matter? Do I respect Geko? No. As long as he/she shies away from the forums to post a boo-hoo poor me open letter in what is perceived as safer waters rather than own up to their position and communicate with the player base I have no respect for them. For that to change, it is entirely up to Geko.
Arenanet started doing that several times when they knew they didn't give the forums proper attention as well. People started to ask where does one go to get the devs attention when they don't listen to their own forums.
I would suggest all players who have concerns for the game begin posting on Reddit to give them no place to hide. It's the best policy and it brings things to light that some people on the web have no idea what's going on like the nerf to rewards which their PR group will most likely take very seriously as they do still have the goal of attracting new players. If new players see that there are some controversial games being played against the playerbase they'll beging to think twice about logging.
And Gecko you're not the one I blame for the fiascos of the game, D'Angelo is. You need stronger management someone who will admit when they have made a serious mistake like accusing players who are simply playing your game normally of exploiting, and who will not try to experiment on a live system with the market or progression costs but who will enhance the game to make it more fun in an already established perfect example of a Free to Play model that I'd suggest you and D'Angelo take a long hard look at to determine just where you've all gone wrong with this design in dilithium rising.
Rift
Please stop all attempts in the future of making this game more like Archeage, GW2, and NWO so that this game can be restored to it's proper glory in which the aspects of progression meant as much and were as available to achieve in a timely manner as any part of the story in STO.
Because until then I'm sure you'll find that more and more people like me will be saying harsher and harsher things until these changes are met. It's great that you like what you're doing but you have to look at the bigger picture and it's no secret that when devs do testing of their own they often have dev powers turned on which eliminates the ability of looking at things in the perspective of the players.
Here's to hoping that something positive comes out of this studio in 2015 because if not, that's fine, I'm young enough to wait for the next studio to get this IP.
Totally respect everything you just said right there, and the way you said it.
I believe you when you say that all you want is communication when things go awry. I feel the same way.
I don't believe that's the case for a number of people who are prolificate here on the forums, who've gone way past frustrated and angry all the way into castle-storming and pitchforks.
It almost amuses me to see some people sharing fond recollections of Dan Stahl when I know full well that he took as much or more flak as Geko has. One overcommunicated, the other undercommunicates, but both have been demonized for things they said or didn't say.
I would be amused, if I weren't so disgusted and saddened by it.
"Don't it always seem to go. That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone."
There may well come a day when somebody posts about how good we had it when Geko was Lead Designer. That'll be a sad, sad day indeed.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Ouch, that's a zinger!
Free Tibet!
Not meant to be a "zinger". It's an observation that I fervently hope never turns into a prophesy.
Two guys, unquestionably both devout Star Trek fans. Dan and Al. Dan's not EP anymore and (some) people miss him. D'Angelo might or might not be a fan, dunno, but he's certainly not vocally geeky about Trek.
I don't want to ever see what happens when they put somebody who sees nothing but dollar signs and never once saw TOS or TNG in the Lead Designer role.
No, Geko is not perfect. And I don't like all of the decisions, whether they were his, the team's, or some faceless manager's. It COULD be worse.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This ain't Sunday School, and we certainly aren't priests.
This is business. A business, which involves transactions of fairly large amounts of money, and a service that is requiring increasing amounts of that money for very little return.
Do you honestly expect people to sit back and smile over a cup of tea while watching their money circle the drain faster and faster? While the people taking said money show increasing hostility and resentment toward the people giving them that money?
To quote the Black Widow..."You just might be in the wrong business Rogers."
I freely admit, I have some pent up hostility right now towards the Cryptic team, especially given what I have invested in this game. To be dismissed because of my anger or frustration certainly does nothing to relieve that anger and frustration. Rather, it fuels it.
Never in all my life (short of Enron) have I seen a company that thought so little of it's customers, nor displayed such a hostile nature towards them, meanwhile taking their money while snubbing them.
But, I know when my business is no longer valued, and the company I do business with doesn't want my money. I will happily give that money to your competitors who see fit to value me as a customer, and not see me as the enemy.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I did feel upset and sad a bit with a few things myself when DR launched, don't really feel that toward anyone of them now, I actually played a little bit today, maybe S10 will bring us all something fun, money wise, they have serious bills, some of the stuff was understandable though.
I'm sorry, I don't believe I mentioned you by name. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.
Anger and frustration, I get. I've expressed it myself. Yes, about STO. I'm not telling people to stop expressing frustration.
I'm suggesting that people who expect a Dev to post here on a regular basis, including personal posts, who are the same people currently sharpening their pitchforks for that same Dev, might be having some cognitive disassociation issues.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I have. I can do a list if you would like?
Thank you for conveying my thoughts and emotions on this issue with words.
People need to realize that 'white knights' are every bit as bad as the 'notorious haters' for the forum environment and the community in general, contributing in equal ammounts to the forum fires that burn and turn this place into a cesspool. So are the forum 'horsemen'.
A civil and intelligent discussion can't exist in a place where everyone that shares a positive thought or a negative concern is immedialtely called out and being bellitled by any of these groups. This is the main reason for the forum turning into the place it has becomme lately.
About 4 months back it was better.
I would in turn suggest that people who expect a Developer who acts in a certain fashion to be treated with 'respect' when he offers none are the same people who have demonstrated a near-pathological inability to place blame onto Cryptic about anything.
I am not referring to you.
I merely find it both amusing and a touch ... surreal ... that any customer should be expected to be delighted by the way PR is handled by this company.
Geko did no wrong posting this on Reddit, which is where the question was fielded. I noted that I wasn't surprised he did, as Reddit has a different flavor than the forums do.
Nor am I calling for his head or waving a pitchfork (and I am aware you were not speaking of me). However, I have this ugly tendency to call a trowel-shaped gardening instrument what it is rather than some euphemistic language.
He is hardly competent at what he is purported to be in charge of. Yes, we had disagreements with Dan. Yes, he took more flak.
But he made the effort, even with how much (often unfair) abuse he took. He made the effort to justify why you had to jump through the hoops, and there are people today who still defend him because whether he was effective or not, or you liked him or not, he was at least TRYING.
This guy? He is using the excuse that there's some people on the forums who are immature and trolling to disregard all feedback, then turns around on Reddit and claims that he'd doing the best he can.
I find that ... disingenuous , at best. But perhaps I am cynical.
This is true. To a degree.
On the other hand, the Cryptic Defense Force has never claimed objectivity in it's activities. Positive feedback has to be feedback and not merely gushing, or it achieves nothing.
In the early days of the game, when there were severe problems, the white knights did immense damage to the community by attempting to brand anyone who had a complaint as an immature troll. While there were those who called them out on such actions, the inevitable conclusion was that people interested in actually offering critical feedback that could be used to improve the game simply gave up doing so, while those who only wanted to flame and complain became the only voice of discord.
Most of the bashing of 'positive thought' that occurred happened when these same white knights attempted to justify things that were flatly wrong (promising not to go F2P and kicking off a lifetime subscriber sale, then going to F2P less than a month later, for example). In the end, anyone talking in a positive light about Cryptic found their positions supported by these white knights, which ended up drawing heavy fire from those sick of their TRIBBLE.
The end result is, of course, dysfunction on a massive scale, and a number of well-meaning intelligent individuals rendered voiceless amidst a sea of screaming.
I can only speak for myself but that in my case is completely untrue. If you have any questions on this, you are welcome to read the DR review linked in my signature. If you read it all, I think my position on both the game and personal conduct will be quite clear. Which in a nutshell is that yes, I can hold both the expectation of civil conduct AND candid disagreement with the direction of the game at the same time without any cognitive dissonance.
I am not "delighted." Their PR problems are severe and I have offered detailed suggestions on how they could do better. But that does not IMO mean I should lash out with personal hatred when calm critique will express what I think just fine. I am willing to say Cryptic is dysfunctional as a company but I am not willing to demonize individuals. Destructive social dynamics--like many paths to hell--are unfortunately often paved with good intentions and accusing people of malice is often the quickest way to get the very people you hope to convince to change course to just hunker down and stay the course right to self-destruction.
I want him to take a hard look at the decisions he is backing and I also want him to think about what he posts more carefully but I *will not* demonize. Sorry if that's too forgiving for some. But it does not make me blind as your statement seems to suggest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
It got a lot of people, and it lingers about, now even trying to be funny things get messed up.
It is what it is now
It's not just my fault / It is my fault / I report to people too.
I've lost track of how many time's I have heard that complaint during a project post-morten. People with positions several paygrades removed make decisions we as developers have to implement, regardless of the unintended consequences.
It sucks.
He has to work with a 5-year old platform that suffers from bad planning, high staff turn overs, poor documentation and a fixed release schedule - regardless of the problems found in testing.
It sucks big time.
He has to contend with a very vocal fan base that has little tolerance for the slightest errors.
I feel for the guy.
Question: So who do I direct my complaints to? I am a paying customer. QA can't listen. Support doesn't return my emails. I still don't have some of the items I paid for. The game was effectively broken upon release, taking 5 weeks to solve loadouts for many. FIVE WEEKS. And don't get me started on the petri-dish experiments with XP and progression.
When your told to do something your know is detrimental or wrong, your role as a professional is to provide and demonstrate alternatives that can achieve the new requirements with minimal disruption to your client base.
My Two Bits
Admiral Thrax