Please copy and paste any post I have ever made where I suggest forcing people to play the game if they hate it.
Sure. Here's from the post that started all this off, the section you claimed to be replying to:
Have you considered the possibility that maybe your feelings are simply wrong, and that even if they aren't, the rational thing for you to do would be to simply shut up and stop playing? Either you are wrong, and despite your personal irrational dislike of the game, things really are good (so they likely won't change to suit you), or you are right, and the developers really are "atrocious" and "incompetent", and you won't ever get what you want because they simply won't be able to deliver.
To which you replied,
I certainly hope nobody takes your advice.
In other words, even if someone has grown to dislike the game, and refuses to believe the "atrocious" and "incompetent" developers when told anything, you want to keep them here anyway, their hatred festering...
I want them to seek their better natures. Staying in a relationship of any sort when you think anything you're being told is a lie is unhealthy; this is multiplied when the "relationship" is playing a game. If the person addressed above really feels the way he claims to, then the rational, logical thing to do would be to move on. I know that if I felt that way, I'd be out. It's happened before, you know - STO isn't my first MMO, not by a long shot. And when I stopped enjoying the gameplay in those others, I stopped playing them.
(And by all reports, they haven't missed me - not one of them folded after my departure, and the only one that suffered player losses at all probably did so simply due to its age. I hope everyone playing them now is having more fun with them than I was.)
A valid point (in terms of queues), but irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. Like the stock market.
It does, but it is one asset PWE owns out of countless others. To suggest that correlation equals causation is also misinformation.
It is the only information you have to go by. Whether we like it or not, that is what they are saying. Without access to their information, we are in a position where we must either take them at their word or simply assume they are lying. In which case, why are we still playing? Why are we still posting on the forums in relation to what they say? We've already made up our minds, haven't we?
Nothing they say is true at all. So why bother?
You are correct. That information neither supports nor detracts from the success/failure of Delta Rising, STO, growth, recession, player retention, or whether styrofoam cups at Cryptic hold more coffee than ceramic coffee mugs.
It sounds good in your head. So, you run with it. You run with it despite any educated person being able to plainly see it does not support your points. You know for a fact it doesn't. But if you use unrelated information that is loosely associated with what you are trying to 'prove', then that's 'good enough' to the truth for you.
On the flipside, it's like saying "Well, they say the game is healthy and growing, therefore it's true!", but the difference is one of these parties is an authority on the subject and has access to the data. The other is putting on a tin foil hat and saying it's a conspiracy.
The experts in this matter are Cryptic. So either you believe them or you don't. What they say or don't say does not matter to you. The only time you will believe them is if they say something that supports your emotional state. If they don't, then they are simply hiding information from you.
You're allowed to make your points. I'm allowed to point out how they're flawed. This is how forum dialogue works. If I point out something false, I expect people to correct me. It is the only way we are able to progress and get anywhere.
You can doubt Cryptic. I doubt Cryptic too, at times. I make it clear to them via the forums when I doubt them. I point out when I think they are making a bad decision, or when I think something could be better.
I doubt some of the things they say, and I point it out. I also look at what Cryptic does on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.
If you want to doubt anything, and want to bring some infographics, pie charts, and facts to the table, it is imperative that they are all directly related to what you are taking a position for or against.
The stock market has nothing to do with player queues. Your personal feelings and emotional state has nothing to do whether or not STO/Delta Rising is a success or failure.
These things exist with or without your emotions and personal perceptions and experiences.
By that, I would say that the stock is trending downward. It hasn't reached half it's highpoint in the past 2 years (approx) and doesn't look to retain the recent over the quarter mark for long, maybe in the next year it will dip below that mark. But that is yet to be seen. I would not say that this is healthy, stable, profitable stock to purchase at this time.
Now if the buyout rumors develope into actual deal, I can see a new spike in that stock just prior to it the deal being finalized just for some people trying to make a quick buck. But then I would expect the stock drop again and then level out a bit to see what new managemen does with the company. All just educated speculation at this point though.
You can doubt Cryptic. I doubt Cryptic too, at times. I make it clear to them via the forums when I doubt them. I point out when I think they are making a bad decision, or when I think something could be better.
I doubt some of the things they say, and I point it out. I also look at what Cryptic does on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.
If you want to doubt anything, and want to bring some infographics, pie charts, and facts to the table, it is imperative that they are all directly related to what you are taking a position for or against.
The stock market has nothing to do with player queues. Your personal feelings and emotional state has nothing to do whether or not STO/Delta Rising is a success or failure.
These things exist with or without your emotions and personal perceptions and experiences.
I yield but with the observations that statements without proof are statements without proof and that there is no purely relevant information because it's all hidden from view and locked away which does not make it true by blocking the ability to disprove it.
I yield but with the observations that statements without proof are statements without proof and that there is no purely relevant information because it's all hidden from view and locked away which does not make it true by blocking the ability to disprove it.
So much of this is pointless, either you like the game or you don't, you either play the game or you don't.
Me personaly, my game time went from hours every day to minutes over the last month, I have only been logging on for the winter event, and they screwed that up too.
Point being this entire business of convincing people to play, or not to play, is completely stupid.
No one will ever accomplish that task, especially on these forums they invented stuborn.
PW is an Asian company. Asian companies do not admit failure they do not admit setbacks and they will never ever admit when they are wrong. It is a cultural difference, one I've delt with across different aspects of industry.
PW will continue to tell us the game is growing and thriving as they turn off the servers. To them it is better to simply pull the plug and say "yes all is well continue to march" than it is to say "ohhhhkaaay we screwed up here lets step back and make some adjustments."
Again, not doom-say, simply spelling out how things are.
Um, what? the lowest listed price was in july 2012 at $9.63, highest was in spetember 2009 at $48.10. The lowest recent price was $14.87 in dec. highest recent price was $19.25 on 2Jan. Current is $18.98.
Point is, yes, PW stock went down 5$ between October and December last year. But that has nothing to do with STO, and isn't the biggest shift their stock has seen over the years. That was between 26aug2011 @21.87 and 30sep2011 @11.16.
Heh, not sure why THAT happened, but it didn't spell doom for the company. in fact the current price of $19.01 suggests that they've recovered nicely.
PW is an Asian company. Asian companies do not admit failure they do not admit setbacks and they will never ever admit when they are wrong. It is a cultural difference, one I've delt with across different aspects of industry.
PW will continue to tell us the game is growing and thriving as they turn off the servers. To them it is better to simply pull the plug and say "yes all is well continue to march" than it is to say "ohhhhkaaay we screwed up here lets step back and make some adjustments."
Again, not doom-say, simply spelling out how things are.
Agreed. I think it's time Cryptic finds a new game company to support them*. PWE is sinking this ship (and, judging by stocks, other PWE games as well), it's time to find a new boat.
*Preferably not an Asian company, or it'll be the same ***** all over again.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
You can doubt Cryptic. I doubt Cryptic too, at times. I make it clear to them via the forums when I doubt them. I point out when I think they are making a bad decision, or when I think something could be better.
I doubt some of the things they say, and I point it out. I also look at what Cryptic does on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.
If you want to doubt anything, and want to bring some infographics, pie charts, and facts to the table, it is imperative that they are all directly related to what you are taking a position for or against.
The stock market has nothing to do with player queues. Your personal feelings and emotional state has nothing to do whether or not STO/Delta Rising is a success or failure.
These things exist with or without your emotions and personal perceptions and experiences.
This would assume that their is data to gather to prove such positions. But if the "experts", as you call them, withhold all the data, then they don't make it possible to communicate at the level you are saying we should. Which leaves using only the data that is available and making inferances, a stistical model I might add, from the available data to arrive at a some conclusion. Especially if you doubt the veracity of the original position> And that is the case we have here.
They are withholding all of the data. I would assume that is based not only on a buisness practice but a desire to control all information about about thier fiscal operations as hidden as possible. Why that is the case, you would have to ask them. But it's the only BUISNESS reason I can see that fits the fact. The other reason would be to be able to make any statements they wish about thier operations from a PR standpoint and not have any credible opposition. But that seems more like a company that's floundering and trying to hide it.
Logically, it would have better buisness sense to prove thier stability and thier PR statements with facts, charts and figures that others can digest and accept. This would then spur further, more fruitful discussions on the games state, healthyness, and stability as well as it's potential future, in an open and honest way.
Cryptic holds all of the cards right now and undercuts any attempts to disagree with them. And until they change thier position on information sharing, I am afraid they will always get people who will use ANY plausible source to present data to support any postulation they have reached.
Get Cryptic to release the data and this whole discussion is moot. Untill then, you will have to accept the fact that any data, no mater how obscure it is, will be drawn upon, because that is what Cryptic wants us to do.
Um, what? the lowest listed price was in july 2012 at $9.63, highest was in spetember 2009 at $48.10. The lowest recent price was $14.87 in dec. highest recent price was $19.25 on 2Jan. Current is $18.98.
Point is, yes, PW stock went down 5$ between October and December last year. But that has nothing to do with STO, and isn't the biggest shift their stock has seen over the years. That was between 26aug2011 @21.87 and 30sep2011 @11.16.
Heh, not sure why THAT happened, but it didn't spell doom for the company. in fact the current price of $19.01 suggests that they've recovered nicely.
Yeah, I guess this all belongs in the buyout thread. LOL
But it really took a sharp decline ($5 is about 25%) around the American Thanksgiving holiday and then a sharp up when the chairman offered to buy out the board last week.
I also think I got lumped in with the doom doooooooooooom school when I want it to flowers and sunshine. LOL I just wish the rubberbanding would stop so I can actually play instead of sit here in the forums wishing I could play. (also for another thread)
It's already been well established that we can't trust Cryptic or what they say. More so if it involves money. While the individuals are great people who like the fans, company wise, Cryptic is just driving down dark alley in a van with no windows, offering Star Trek to people...
They hide behind the silence, saying that people tend to jump on them anytime they say something that doesn't pan out, but the issue there is just how little they say that actually pans out. If they tell us they're developing a feature, yeah people are going to get excited and likewise disappointed if they fail to deliver. But just tell us that you've failed. Don't hide it, don't sweep it under the rug.
Have you seen Cryptic's rug lately? It's like a tupee on a mountain. They're sweeping everything under there from bugs they don't want to fix, bugs they can't fix, things they've promised, things they've polled us on what we wanted (but then decided to disregard anyway), and way too many other things to keep listing. It's ridiculous.
Needless to say, they're never going to release the metrics because A) because it will only prove they're lying only prove that they're telling the truth but no one will believe those are the real numbers because it's coming from Cryptic, or C) the one I believe to be the most likely, That all of these metrics are being heavily influenced by the games shifting towards the asian markets by owner PWE. For all we know, the transitions to Grinding heavier harder, were to make the game more marketable in the eastern regions, so having a denser population of people more addicted to online grinding could be falsely boosting cryptics number like a noob in an A2B FAW boat.
The sad thing is, we will never know. Cryptic will never release the numbers, and if the did they would be doctored or vague to the point where they could say anything about it like it was true. So unless Cryptic gets massively TRIBBLE like Sony did, and we get a nice pleasant series of leaked information, than you can be assured that this ship is just going to keep sinking slowly...
This would assume that their is data to gather to prove such positions. But if the "experts", as you call them, withhold all the data, then they don't make it possible to communicate at the level you are saying we should. Which leaves using only the data that is available and making inferances, a stistical model I might add, from the available data to arrive at a some conclusion. Especially if you doubt the veracity of the original position> And that is the case we have here.
You either believe them or you don't. You can believe some things they say and some things they don't. You can believe everything they say. You can believe nothing they say.
I am not saying believe them or don't believe them when it comes to this. I am saying that when it comes to displeased STO players on the forums and Cryptic Studios, one of these parties has access to the information and can therefore make an educated opinion on the matter. The other does not.
Cryptic is the expert in this matter whether you like it or not.
They are withholding all of the data. I would assume that is based not only on a buisness practice but a desire to control all information about about thier fiscal operations as hidden as possible. Why that is the case, you would have to ask them.
That's actually par for the course throughout the gaming industry.
But it's the only BUISNESS reason I can see that fits the fact. The other reason would be to be able to make any statements they wish about thier operations from a PR standpoint and not have any credible opposition. But that seems more like a company that's floundering and trying to hide it.
Or that's just the way MMO companies tend to operate. And PWE/Cryptic is no different.
Logically, it would have better buisness sense to prove thier stability and thier PR statements with facts, charts and figures that others can digest and accept. This would then spur further, more fruitful discussions on the games state, healthyness, and stability as well as it's potential future, in an open and honest way.
Logically, yes. But then capitalism isn't about what's logical, it's about what's profitable. I'd love to live in a world where people could freely post and share information about their business decisions and their accounting books without somehow harming them in some fashion.
Cryptic holds all of the cards right now and undercuts any attempts to disagree with them. And until they change thier position on information sharing, I am afraid they will always get people who will use ANY plausible source to present data to support any postulation they have reached.
Kind of a chicken and the egg scenario. Cryptic was more open and transparent once upon a time, but then because of things that failed to come to pass, despite their intentions to "Make it so.", players took them to task for it. Now they are more quiet about what is going on.
But then players are unhappy because they are quiet and not as open and transparent as they used to be.
Really, nobody wins.
Get Cryptic to release the data and this whole discussion is moot. Untill then, you will have to accept the fact that any data, no mater how obscure it is, will be drawn upon, because that is what Cryptic wants us to do.
No. I'm fairly sure if Cryptic actually released all of that data, players would say the data is flawed, exaggerated, or would say Cryptic is hiding how they decided to gather the data to begin with.
Then if they released on how they gathered the data to begin with, players would take them to task for not including their own personal opinions on what constitutes data.
Players on the STO forums will always move goal posts when it fits their narrative, regardless of what Cryptic says or doesn't say.
Now if the buyout rumors develope into actual deal, I can see a new spike in that stock just prior to it the deal being finalized just for some people trying to make a quick buck. But then I would expect the stock drop again and then level out a bit to see what new managemen does with the company. All just educated speculation at this point though.
This is why you can't trust people "opinions" on the forums. People talk about stuff without knowing how anything works, like after the owner buys all the stock back and takes PWE off the exchange, the stock is going to drop again? How could that even be possible
This is why you can't trust people "opinions" on the forums. People talk about stuff without knowing how anything works, like after the owner buys all the stock back and takes PWE off the exchange, the stock is going to drop again? How could that even be possible
I think he means if they don't vote to affirm the buyout. In that case, there is still stock and chances are it will drop. Or that is how I read it. I will let him speak for himself.
I see this every evening for several weeks (just like many other players) and it shows how healthy STO really is. If that does not change anytime soon cryptic can forget the part about "growing".
I can say that if the lag issues aren't fixed, this game won't be very healthy for very long. Whatever has started within the past week has completely undermined playability during PEAK USAGE TIME for Europe. So if PWE wants to lose an entire continent of pissed off players, keep up the good work.
You either believe them or you don't. You can believe some things they say and some things they don't. You can believe everything they say. You can believe nothing they say.
I am not saying believe them or don't believe them when it comes to this. I am saying that when it comes to displeased STO players on the forums and Cryptic Studios, one of these parties has access to the information and can therefore make an educated opinion on the matter. The other does not.
Cryptic is the expert in this matter whether you like it or not.
I just take exception to calling them the "experts" when they allow no toher person to review the data. Experts exist in an open eviroment, implies that some cannot achieve that level while having the opportunity. This is not the case. They have a monopoly on the information and therefore can be characterized as more haveing all the Intelligence assets to create the presentation. They also have the ability to skew the data anywhich way they choose with out reporting that data in this method without having to prove it.
Logically, yes. But then capitalism isn't about what's logical, it's about what's profitable. I'd love to live in a world where people could freely post and share information about their business decisions and their accounting books without somehow harming them in some fashion.
Yes, profitable. And many MMO's have found it to be more profitable to present the numbers to the core players so that they become the people that drives the game to higher numbers. It is profitable to relase that dat, because it becomes a selling point. As long as those numbers are decent. If the numbers are poor compared to other MMO's, then I can see why they hide it. But then that would imply that the game is not as healthy and growing as they claim.
Kind of a chicken and the egg scenario. Cryptic was more open and transparent once upon a time, but then because of things that failed to come to pass, despite their intentions to "Make it so.", players took them to task for it. Now they are more quiet about what is going on.
But then players are unhappy because they are quiet and not as open and transparent as they used to be.
Really, nobody wins.
No. I'm fairly sure if Cryptic actually released all of that data, players would say the data is flawed, exaggerated, or would say Cryptic is hiding how they decided to gather the data to begin with.
Then if they released on how they gathered the data to begin with, players would take them to task for not including their own personal opinions on what constitutes data.
Players on the STO forums will always move goal posts when it fits their narrative, regardless of what Cryptic says or doesn't say.
And I disagree with you on this point. Releaseing the data will do more for making the game stronger and healthier because there will be a lack of speculation on the numbers. And it will drive more positive discussions because people will be able to see the data and be able to talk while comparing apples to apples.
Data is just data, everybody, including Cryptic, will interpret the data in the manner that they see things. But this just means that two sepperate groups can take the same data and compare their models and ideas and reach a consensus based on the SAME data. This open dialog, in the long run, will make the player base and the game better. And remove a lot of of the stigma, over time, from Cryptic.
As for the rest of the Data Statements, yes, there will always be people who will never be satisfied. But that isn't the point that I am making. Data free for people to look over will be more productive than the current hidden, misinformation model currently in place. The more vague you make your operational statements about the games health and well being, the harder it is to convince the average person that things are going good. It's human nature to seek out what is hidden from us when we feel a sense of ownership, or emotional investment. And for STO, I would consider the average player to above the average person and more emotionallly invested than normal, because of IP.
Yes a 27% decline after Delta Rising is nothing. Sure.
You know, after the Legacy of Romulus, there were 3 months the game had been losing players according to the STO charts.
-2.27 %; -31.09 %; -10.08 %; -3.76 %
The 2nd months after LOR, the game was down to 1,788.6 according to the Steam Charts website.
The second month after Delta Rising, the game is down to 1,774.9
Which is still more than it was before Legacy of Romulus, when it was 1,674. More than it was in September and October in 2013.
Why does a similar trend prove for both expansions somehow prove that DR sucks and LOR was awesome? Maybe there were both terrible for the game? OR they may have been both great for the game?
LOR vs DR - LOR opened up a new faction. It was perfect for new players to join the game, but also for lapsed players to return because they finally got a completely new faction. It was bound to attract a lot of new players.
Delta Rising is something for people already playing the game. If oyu're new, it wills still take you forever to even get to the point where DElta Rising and Tier 6 ship open up to you. There is no incentive for new players. Only lapsed players may come back, because there is some new stuff. So the kind of expectations these expansions would have and how it manifests in player counts and sales will also be quite different.
In the company I work in, we produce 12 months a year. But the 4th quarter - christmas - is where we make the big money. The entire year we're working to improving our software and improcing our production quality, expand our product portfolio, plan marketing activities, harden our servers for high traffic. It costs a lot, month by month, quarter by quarter. We might actually lose some money in some quarters - but that final quarter, when everyone is ordering our products as presents, then we get our return on investment.
In the steam charts, we only see the numbers of players go up for the release data - but we don't see how much more Cryptic actually makes in that time, and how a jump of 40 % in players mean to them.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think he means if they don't vote to affirm the buyout. In that case, there is still stock and chances are it will drop. Or that is how I read it. I will let him speak for himself.
More or less correct. If the buy falls through, then the inflation caused by the offer changes to a drop as the brokers try to dump the stock on the market at the best possible price point to recover their losses. If the deal does go through, but the stock is not privitized, then brokers will typically sell which cause it to decline though usually not as drastic as the previous stated outcome. Once the market reaches a stable point then the stocks future will be based on management action.
This is all based on past actions with various industries with various companies. The specifics of this particular exchange could not follow historical models, but is the most likely of outcomes.
I just take exception to calling them the "experts" when they allow no toher person to review the data. Experts exist in an open eviroment, implies that some cannot achieve that level while having the opportunity. This is not the case. They have a monopoly on the information and therefore can be characterized as more haveing all the Intelligence assets to create the presentation. They also have the ability to skew the data anywhich way they choose with out reporting that data in this method without having to prove it.
This is normal for any business.
I disagree. I have seen many MMO companies report thier membership numbers. I have never seen STO, Cryptic or PWE to do so.
Which ones, and how do they interpret their data? Do they interpret it to signify the bad trends as well as the good? Or do they similarly portray their membership numbers using methods other people might consider questionable?
Yes, profitable. And many MMO's have found it to be more profitable to present the numbers to the core players so that they become the people that drives the game to higher numbers. It is profitable to relase that dat, because it becomes a selling point. As long as those numbers are decent. If the numbers are poor compared to other MMO's, then I can see why they hide it. But then that would imply that the game is not as healthy and growing as they claim.
Which ones?
And I disagree with you on this point. Releaseing the data will do more for making the game stronger and healthier because there will be a lack of speculation on the numbers. And it will drive more positive discussions because people will be able to see the data and be able to talk while comparing apples to apples.
The data will give people ammunition for whatever narrative they want to make. If people are unhappy with the way their costume looks, they'll look at cherry-picked data involving player numbers to support that other players hate the way their costume looks too.
We already see this now. We saw it before. Data is all about interpretation. Companies have no need to be transparent with their data, so whenever they do release that information it's generally in extremely vague terms.
Not unlike what the EP posted.
Data is just data, everybody, including Cryptic, will interpret the data in the manner that they see things. But this just means that two sepperate groups can take the same data and compare their models and ideas and reach a consensus based on the SAME data. This open dialog, in the long run, will make the player base and the game better. And remove a lot of of the stigma, over time, from Cryptic.
The stigma will never go away. They have never been able to recover from some of their blunders no matter what Cryptic tries to do to make amends. It didn't matter how many apologies they issued, players continue to reach back and use those issues to justify present day problems with the game.
Many players are toxic and simply want to stick it to Cryptic by any means necessary, and anything is fair game.
People will see what they want to see, and then they will tell everyone it's true. If they are called out on it, they simply attack those who called them out. If they decide to spew venomous rhetoric, and are questioned in their chosen method of communication, they simply state that it was meant in jest and Cryptic should have thicker skin.
This is the state of the STO forums. People stick to their guns and anyone who questions them must have their character called into question to somehow disregard anything and everything they have to say about any topic ever.
Data free for people to look over will be more productive than the current hidden, misinformation model currently in place. The more vague you make your operational statements about the games health and well being, the harder it is to convince the average person that things are going good. It's human nature to seek out what is hidden from us when we feel a sense of ownership, or emotional investment. And for STO, I would consider the average player to above the average person and more emotionallly invested than normal, because of IP.
Show me some examples of companies who do exactly what you are saying, and I will reconsider my position. If any companies do what you describe, I am willing to look it over and see how their data is interpreted and what methods they use to collect that data.
But no company benefits from being honest with negative trends to their populace. If data is given by companies, it is generally in a fashion that makes them look good.
Show me some examples of companies who do exactly what you are saying, and I will reconsider my position. If any companies do what you describe, I am willing to look it over and see how their data is interpreted and what methods they use to collect that data.
But no company benefits from being honest with negative trends to their populace. If data is given by companies, it is generally in a fashion that makes them look good.
Biggest example of this I can give is WOW. Blizzard has released thier earnings report publically for thier games. Showing both ups and downs. In fact, when they show downward trends there are people who says WOW is dying, but a great many more that just say that WOW is no where near death and keeps chugging along. They have even at times released infographics showing the trend of subscriptions accross the etire life of the game with particular markings showing when certain releases occured. Sometimes down to specific patches noted on the time table. And they present the info without presenting a conclusion many times. It's just presented. (WOW would get a lot more of my play time if I could justify the monthly cost to my budget, but the budget wins currently:) )
Another game that I used to follow, so I don't know if it's released any more, is Everquest. I know at one time they used publish thier numbers. And at times used those numbers to explain certain actions they took. But I haven't looked at that game in years so I don't know if they still practice this.
I have heard numbers on membership levels for D&D Online by Turbine, and for DCUO but I haven't played them in while also so don't have that data right now. But I know I used to look at that information from time to time. Mostly to see how well the game is doing and make my choice if I want to invest further into it.
Wait I saw that link didn't click on it yet and expected it to be an article by a third party....
Imagine my surprise when it's Cryptic tooting it's own horn?! That's almost as bad as Arenanet saying their newest changes to NPE and to the gem/gold exchange is exactly what players have been complaining about all this time.
Biggest example of this I can give is WOW. Blizzard has released thier earnings report publically for thier games.
That game is the most popular subscription-based MMO on the market. While they have been more transparent, they are really the exception to the rule. When you remain enthroned amongst the most popular MMOs on the market, you can afford to be transparent.
It doesn't mean game companies who do not do that are necessarily unhealthy financially, or trying to hide anything. It is really just a testament to the longevity and popularity of WoW.
Another game that I used to follow, so I don't know if it's released any more, is Everquest. I know at one time they used publish thier numbers. And at times used those numbers to explain certain actions they took. But I haven't looked at that game in years so I don't know if they still practice this.
I was unable to find EverQuest player numbers released by SoE.
I have heard numbers on membership levels for D&D Online by Turbine
They don't release those numbers either, from what I can tell.
and for DCUO but I haven't played them in while also so don't have that data right now. But I know I used to look at that information from time to time. Mostly to see how well the game is doing and make my choice if I want to invest further into it.
They base their data off of registered users, and that is the data they release. From what I can tell, that is a questionable method of data gathering.
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To which you replied,
In other words, even if someone has grown to dislike the game, and refuses to believe the "atrocious" and "incompetent" developers when told anything, you want to keep them here anyway, their hatred festering...
I want them to seek their better natures. Staying in a relationship of any sort when you think anything you're being told is a lie is unhealthy; this is multiplied when the "relationship" is playing a game. If the person addressed above really feels the way he claims to, then the rational, logical thing to do would be to move on. I know that if I felt that way, I'd be out. It's happened before, you know - STO isn't my first MMO, not by a long shot. And when I stopped enjoying the gameplay in those others, I stopped playing them.
(And by all reports, they haven't missed me - not one of them folded after my departure, and the only one that suffered player losses at all probably did so simply due to its age. I hope everyone playing them now is having more fun with them than I was.)
Descartes without the removal of doubt.
They gave the timeline, not me. 2014.
You can doubt Cryptic. I doubt Cryptic too, at times. I make it clear to them via the forums when I doubt them. I point out when I think they are making a bad decision, or when I think something could be better.
I doubt some of the things they say, and I point it out. I also look at what Cryptic does on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong.
If you want to doubt anything, and want to bring some infographics, pie charts, and facts to the table, it is imperative that they are all directly related to what you are taking a position for or against.
The stock market has nothing to do with player queues. Your personal feelings and emotional state has nothing to do whether or not STO/Delta Rising is a success or failure.
These things exist with or without your emotions and personal perceptions and experiences.
By that, I would say that the stock is trending downward. It hasn't reached half it's highpoint in the past 2 years (approx) and doesn't look to retain the recent over the quarter mark for long, maybe in the next year it will dip below that mark. But that is yet to be seen. I would not say that this is healthy, stable, profitable stock to purchase at this time.
Now if the buyout rumors develope into actual deal, I can see a new spike in that stock just prior to it the deal being finalized just for some people trying to make a quick buck. But then I would expect the stock drop again and then level out a bit to see what new managemen does with the company. All just educated speculation at this point though.
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I yield but with the observations that statements without proof are statements without proof and that there is no purely relevant information because it's all hidden from view and locked away which does not make it true by blocking the ability to disprove it.
This is correct, for better or for worse.
Also, I don't hate the game. If I did, I wouldn't care if it tanks and burns or soars among eagles. :P
Me personaly, my game time went from hours every day to minutes over the last month, I have only been logging on for the winter event, and they screwed that up too.
Point being this entire business of convincing people to play, or not to play, is completely stupid.
No one will ever accomplish that task, especially on these forums they invented stuborn.
PW will continue to tell us the game is growing and thriving as they turn off the servers. To them it is better to simply pull the plug and say "yes all is well continue to march" than it is to say "ohhhhkaaay we screwed up here lets step back and make some adjustments."
Again, not doom-say, simply spelling out how things are.
Point is, yes, PW stock went down 5$ between October and December last year. But that has nothing to do with STO, and isn't the biggest shift their stock has seen over the years. That was between 26aug2011 @21.87 and 30sep2011 @11.16.
Heh, not sure why THAT happened, but it didn't spell doom for the company. in fact the current price of $19.01 suggests that they've recovered nicely.
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Agreed. I think it's time Cryptic finds a new game company to support them*. PWE is sinking this ship (and, judging by stocks, other PWE games as well), it's time to find a new boat.
*Preferably not an Asian company, or it'll be the same ***** all over again.
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This would assume that their is data to gather to prove such positions. But if the "experts", as you call them, withhold all the data, then they don't make it possible to communicate at the level you are saying we should. Which leaves using only the data that is available and making inferances, a stistical model I might add, from the available data to arrive at a some conclusion. Especially if you doubt the veracity of the original position> And that is the case we have here.
They are withholding all of the data. I would assume that is based not only on a buisness practice but a desire to control all information about about thier fiscal operations as hidden as possible. Why that is the case, you would have to ask them. But it's the only BUISNESS reason I can see that fits the fact. The other reason would be to be able to make any statements they wish about thier operations from a PR standpoint and not have any credible opposition. But that seems more like a company that's floundering and trying to hide it.
Logically, it would have better buisness sense to prove thier stability and thier PR statements with facts, charts and figures that others can digest and accept. This would then spur further, more fruitful discussions on the games state, healthyness, and stability as well as it's potential future, in an open and honest way.
Cryptic holds all of the cards right now and undercuts any attempts to disagree with them. And until they change thier position on information sharing, I am afraid they will always get people who will use ANY plausible source to present data to support any postulation they have reached.
Get Cryptic to release the data and this whole discussion is moot. Untill then, you will have to accept the fact that any data, no mater how obscure it is, will be drawn upon, because that is what Cryptic wants us to do.
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Yeah, I guess this all belongs in the buyout thread. LOL
But it really took a sharp decline ($5 is about 25%) around the American Thanksgiving holiday and then a sharp up when the chairman offered to buy out the board last week.
I also think I got lumped in with the doom doooooooooooom school when I want it to flowers and sunshine. LOL I just wish the rubberbanding would stop so I can actually play instead of sit here in the forums wishing I could play. (also for another thread)
I'll agree to that as well.
It's already been well established that we can't trust Cryptic or what they say. More so if it involves money. While the individuals are great people who like the fans, company wise, Cryptic is just driving down dark alley in a van with no windows, offering Star Trek to people...
They hide behind the silence, saying that people tend to jump on them anytime they say something that doesn't pan out, but the issue there is just how little they say that actually pans out. If they tell us they're developing a feature, yeah people are going to get excited and likewise disappointed if they fail to deliver. But just tell us that you've failed. Don't hide it, don't sweep it under the rug.
Have you seen Cryptic's rug lately? It's like a tupee on a mountain. They're sweeping everything under there from bugs they don't want to fix, bugs they can't fix, things they've promised, things they've polled us on what we wanted (but then decided to disregard anyway), and way too many other things to keep listing. It's ridiculous.
Needless to say, they're never going to release the metrics because A) because it will only prove they're lying
The sad thing is, we will never know. Cryptic will never release the numbers, and if the did they would be doctored or vague to the point where they could say anything about it like it was true. So unless Cryptic gets massively TRIBBLE like Sony did, and we get a nice pleasant series of leaked information, than you can be assured that this ship is just going to keep sinking slowly...
You either believe them or you don't. You can believe some things they say and some things they don't. You can believe everything they say. You can believe nothing they say.
I am not saying believe them or don't believe them when it comes to this. I am saying that when it comes to displeased STO players on the forums and Cryptic Studios, one of these parties has access to the information and can therefore make an educated opinion on the matter. The other does not.
Cryptic is the expert in this matter whether you like it or not.
That's actually par for the course throughout the gaming industry.
Or that's just the way MMO companies tend to operate. And PWE/Cryptic is no different.
Logically, yes. But then capitalism isn't about what's logical, it's about what's profitable. I'd love to live in a world where people could freely post and share information about their business decisions and their accounting books without somehow harming them in some fashion.
Kind of a chicken and the egg scenario. Cryptic was more open and transparent once upon a time, but then because of things that failed to come to pass, despite their intentions to "Make it so.", players took them to task for it. Now they are more quiet about what is going on.
But then players are unhappy because they are quiet and not as open and transparent as they used to be.
Really, nobody wins.
No. I'm fairly sure if Cryptic actually released all of that data, players would say the data is flawed, exaggerated, or would say Cryptic is hiding how they decided to gather the data to begin with.
Then if they released on how they gathered the data to begin with, players would take them to task for not including their own personal opinions on what constitutes data.
Players on the STO forums will always move goal posts when it fits their narrative, regardless of what Cryptic says or doesn't say.
This is why you can't trust people "opinions" on the forums. People talk about stuff without knowing how anything works, like after the owner buys all the stock back and takes PWE off the exchange, the stock is going to drop again? How could that even be possible
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I think he means if they don't vote to affirm the buyout. In that case, there is still stock and chances are it will drop. Or that is how I read it. I will let him speak for himself.
http://www.swat-portal.com/metrics.jpg
I see this every evening for several weeks (just like many other players) and it shows how healthy STO really is. If that does not change anytime soon cryptic can forget the part about "growing".
I just take exception to calling them the "experts" when they allow no toher person to review the data. Experts exist in an open eviroment, implies that some cannot achieve that level while having the opportunity. This is not the case. They have a monopoly on the information and therefore can be characterized as more haveing all the Intelligence assets to create the presentation. They also have the ability to skew the data anywhich way they choose with out reporting that data in this method without having to prove it.
I disagree. I have seen many MMO companies report thier membership numbers. I have never seen STO, Cryptic or PWE to do so.
Yes, profitable. And many MMO's have found it to be more profitable to present the numbers to the core players so that they become the people that drives the game to higher numbers. It is profitable to relase that dat, because it becomes a selling point. As long as those numbers are decent. If the numbers are poor compared to other MMO's, then I can see why they hide it. But then that would imply that the game is not as healthy and growing as they claim.
And I disagree with you on this point. Releaseing the data will do more for making the game stronger and healthier because there will be a lack of speculation on the numbers. And it will drive more positive discussions because people will be able to see the data and be able to talk while comparing apples to apples.
Data is just data, everybody, including Cryptic, will interpret the data in the manner that they see things. But this just means that two sepperate groups can take the same data and compare their models and ideas and reach a consensus based on the SAME data. This open dialog, in the long run, will make the player base and the game better. And remove a lot of of the stigma, over time, from Cryptic.
As for the rest of the Data Statements, yes, there will always be people who will never be satisfied. But that isn't the point that I am making. Data free for people to look over will be more productive than the current hidden, misinformation model currently in place. The more vague you make your operational statements about the games health and well being, the harder it is to convince the average person that things are going good. It's human nature to seek out what is hidden from us when we feel a sense of ownership, or emotional investment. And for STO, I would consider the average player to above the average person and more emotionallly invested than normal, because of IP.
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-2.27 %; -31.09 %; -10.08 %; -3.76 %
The 2nd months after LOR, the game was down to 1,788.6 according to the Steam Charts website.
The second month after Delta Rising, the game is down to 1,774.9
Which is still more than it was before Legacy of Romulus, when it was 1,674. More than it was in September and October in 2013.
Why does a similar trend prove for both expansions somehow prove that DR sucks and LOR was awesome? Maybe there were both terrible for the game? OR they may have been both great for the game?
LOR vs DR - LOR opened up a new faction. It was perfect for new players to join the game, but also for lapsed players to return because they finally got a completely new faction. It was bound to attract a lot of new players.
Delta Rising is something for people already playing the game. If oyu're new, it wills still take you forever to even get to the point where DElta Rising and Tier 6 ship open up to you. There is no incentive for new players. Only lapsed players may come back, because there is some new stuff. So the kind of expectations these expansions would have and how it manifests in player counts and sales will also be quite different.
In the company I work in, we produce 12 months a year. But the 4th quarter - christmas - is where we make the big money. The entire year we're working to improving our software and improcing our production quality, expand our product portfolio, plan marketing activities, harden our servers for high traffic. It costs a lot, month by month, quarter by quarter. We might actually lose some money in some quarters - but that final quarter, when everyone is ordering our products as presents, then we get our return on investment.
In the steam charts, we only see the numbers of players go up for the release data - but we don't see how much more Cryptic actually makes in that time, and how a jump of 40 % in players mean to them.
More or less correct. If the buy falls through, then the inflation caused by the offer changes to a drop as the brokers try to dump the stock on the market at the best possible price point to recover their losses. If the deal does go through, but the stock is not privitized, then brokers will typically sell which cause it to decline though usually not as drastic as the previous stated outcome. Once the market reaches a stable point then the stocks future will be based on management action.
This is all based on past actions with various industries with various companies. The specifics of this particular exchange could not follow historical models, but is the most likely of outcomes.
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This is normal for any business.
Which ones, and how do they interpret their data? Do they interpret it to signify the bad trends as well as the good? Or do they similarly portray their membership numbers using methods other people might consider questionable?
Which ones?
The data will give people ammunition for whatever narrative they want to make. If people are unhappy with the way their costume looks, they'll look at cherry-picked data involving player numbers to support that other players hate the way their costume looks too.
We already see this now. We saw it before. Data is all about interpretation. Companies have no need to be transparent with their data, so whenever they do release that information it's generally in extremely vague terms.
Not unlike what the EP posted.
The stigma will never go away. They have never been able to recover from some of their blunders no matter what Cryptic tries to do to make amends. It didn't matter how many apologies they issued, players continue to reach back and use those issues to justify present day problems with the game.
Many players are toxic and simply want to stick it to Cryptic by any means necessary, and anything is fair game.
People will see what they want to see, and then they will tell everyone it's true. If they are called out on it, they simply attack those who called them out. If they decide to spew venomous rhetoric, and are questioned in their chosen method of communication, they simply state that it was meant in jest and Cryptic should have thicker skin.
This is the state of the STO forums. People stick to their guns and anyone who questions them must have their character called into question to somehow disregard anything and everything they have to say about any topic ever.
Show me some examples of companies who do exactly what you are saying, and I will reconsider my position. If any companies do what you describe, I am willing to look it over and see how their data is interpreted and what methods they use to collect that data.
But no company benefits from being honest with negative trends to their populace. If data is given by companies, it is generally in a fashion that makes them look good.
Biggest example of this I can give is WOW. Blizzard has released thier earnings report publically for thier games. Showing both ups and downs. In fact, when they show downward trends there are people who says WOW is dying, but a great many more that just say that WOW is no where near death and keeps chugging along. They have even at times released infographics showing the trend of subscriptions accross the etire life of the game with particular markings showing when certain releases occured. Sometimes down to specific patches noted on the time table. And they present the info without presenting a conclusion many times. It's just presented. (WOW would get a lot more of my play time if I could justify the monthly cost to my budget, but the budget wins currently:) )
Another game that I used to follow, so I don't know if it's released any more, is Everquest. I know at one time they used publish thier numbers. And at times used those numbers to explain certain actions they took. But I haven't looked at that game in years so I don't know if they still practice this.
I have heard numbers on membership levels for D&D Online by Turbine, and for DCUO but I haven't played them in while also so don't have that data right now. But I know I used to look at that information from time to time. Mostly to see how well the game is doing and make my choice if I want to invest further into it.
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Imagine my surprise when it's Cryptic tooting it's own horn?! That's almost as bad as Arenanet saying their newest changes to NPE and to the gem/gold exchange is exactly what players have been complaining about all this time.
/doublepicardfacepalm...
That game is the most popular subscription-based MMO on the market. While they have been more transparent, they are really the exception to the rule. When you remain enthroned amongst the most popular MMOs on the market, you can afford to be transparent.
It doesn't mean game companies who do not do that are necessarily unhealthy financially, or trying to hide anything. It is really just a testament to the longevity and popularity of WoW.
I was unable to find EverQuest player numbers released by SoE.
They don't release those numbers either, from what I can tell.
They base their data off of registered users, and that is the data they release. From what I can tell, that is a questionable method of data gathering.