No, we shouldn't be. There are lots of accusations of heads in the sand, entitlements, purposefully underperforming, purposely overperforming, and pointing everywhere but at that big gorilla in the back of the room. As long as everyone feels self-entitled and has their own head in the sand, that's the way it's going to be. There are tools and methods to avoid any game play you don't want to experience built into the same system that allows others to have any game play they want to experience but the self-entitled heads in the sand shouldn't have to use them when everyone else should just stay off the playground if they don't have a clique endorsed ball to play with. You can argue until you turn blue in the face that the system is exactly as it's designed and you get out of it what the designers put into it and no one is going to listen.
Note: Head in sand sarcasm in case you miss it.
Your solution is head in sand...case you missed it.
Cause you're not really avoiding the problem 100% by pretending it is not there.
There are ramifications of the problem that go beyond just how it affects you.
Well, I'd say it's more about observing what people do and seeing how things come out in practice. The whole "actions speak louder than words" thing. One thing I can think of that was actually specific to PvP is the Elachi hay wire circuit. IIRC it was originally a 60% damage reduction, but that's kinda OP in PvP.
I don't remember that particular console, but I remember other things, such as the black hole console (unless I am getting confused and that is what you are talking about) which would totally shut a person down so they were 100% disabled. It was eventually changed, and people bitched about how PvPers got it nerfed, despite it actually being a bit more useful in PvE after that.
There have been a few other things nerfed pretty much only for a PvP reason, but those are the exception really.
I get what you are saying about 'actions speak louder than words', it's true, PvPers would show (sometimes even in videos) just how effective something was, and it might end up changed. From that, the game was probably better for it, but players would blame PvPers for it, because it was the easy thing to do. Which it was, it's easy to put blame on any small minority of players, no matter who that might be, and whatever the reason is.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
And what's worse is that increasing the HP of your enemies demands mainly one thing from your players - DPS.
Say you have Mob X. I increase the health of Mob X Do you just need increased DPS to deal with Mob X? Do you have to survive longer yourself during the process of eliminating Mob X as well? Would working in debuffs and buffs be a means of increasing that DPS and survival? Would it require more active play from the player?
Course, the level at which they did it, imho, should have been done back around S6/S7.
Kind of like the Mirror Revamp, that might have been interesting if done before S6. By the time they did, it was an interesting idea - Escorts to blow stuff up, Cruisers for the Gens, and Sci Vessels for the Rifts - but everybody cold blow everything up fast enough that even with the first one it didn't matter...and thus the complaints about twiddling thumbs for 3-4 minutes waiting. It was that much worse with the last one.
With the F2P conversion, the obvious market would be the casual/extremely casual player and selling them all sorts of magic to allow them to do stuff. It's going to be the largest potential base out there. There are more Star Trek fans than there are Star Trek gamers.
With that comes expectations for playtime vs. rewards - ye olde golden rule Cryptic used to work with of getting X for around 15 minutes play. The increased health, etc, etc, etc - while it would add increased difficulty to some and require a more active engagement from them, imho, it was more about trying to move things back to expected durations for rewards being earned. They couldn't actually increase the difficulty too much for the players that had been their bread and butter since the conversion. They'd outright lose them. So...try to extend the length of engagement.
Which is where it gets into the DR "difficulty" increase not being about doing anything for the DPS crowds out there...didn't really have anything to do with them. It was just a case that even the average players were blowing through things, earning their rewards, too fast...and the need to slow that down.
Course, a bunch of folks had become accustomed to how quickly they were earning stuff...and...they weren't happy about it. Which goes back to what I said about Cryptic kind of starting it too late...they should have been addressing this back as they went into S6 and all along the way. Not the "oh, hey guys - er - maybe we should do something about this" that they finally did...
Your solution is head in sand...case you missed it.
My head is not in the sand. I'm not the one banging my face against a wall of stupid over and over and over expecting it to magically disappear. Keep pugging. Keep failing. Keep crying. You know what is in there so keep going there getting what you get and either suck it up and take what happens or change your ways and do something about it that you can do about it. Stay out of pugs and run with people you know in premade teams.
If you can't pull your head out of wherever it is long enough to get that, then that's your problem. You go right on defending the enablers and I'll go right on saying the ones who do it aren't exploiting anything by not being in the big club with the fancy hats. You want to call 5k dps leeches, trolls, and griefers. Knock yourself out. You choose to play that way and keep your head in the hole.
Reply to your addition: And what exactly am I to do about it beyond me? Scream at people in pugs? Tell them how their pathetic lives are ruining my day? Or do I not pug and avoid the whole mess without any further problems to me? Which works best here? Because the Cryptic you are defending doesn't care as long as they keep buying keys and you keep spending money. They will cater to both as long as your wallets are out.
In the meantime, you have options to avoid it. Head in the sand is refusing to raise your eyes above the dirt to see them.
I don't remember that particular console, but I remember other things, such as the black hole console (unless I am getting confused and that is what you are talking about) which would totally shut a person down so they were 100% disabled. It was eventually changed, and people bitched about how PvPers got it nerfed, despite it actually being a bit more useful in PvE after that.
There have been a few other things nerfed pretty much only for a PvP reason, but those are the exception really.
I get what you are saying about 'actions speak louder than words', it's true, PvPers would show (sometimes even in videos) just how effective something was, and it might end up changed. From that, the game was probably better for it, but players would blame PvPers for it, because it was the easy thing to do. Which it was, it's easy to put blame on any small minority of players, no matter who that might be, and whatever the reason is.
I might be thinking of a passive buff you got from having the console set. But yeah, the subspace rift console was pretty nuts at first too.,
Say you have Mob X. I increase the health of Mob X Do you just need increased DPS to deal with Mob X? Do you have to survive longer yourself during the process of eliminating Mob X as well? Would working in debuffs and buffs be a means of increasing that DPS and survival? Would it require more active play from the player?
I called it merely a day after Delta Rising hit in this thread. Then we backtrack to... who is to blame.
Can we just try fixing the problem instead of point fingers? Er... bug the devs to fix the problem. You know what I mean.
Problem is is that every time someone starts a thread on that subject the elite DPSers usually show up to argue that everything is alright and nothing needs to be fixed, the OP included.
I called it merely a day after Delta Rising hit in this thread. Then we backtrack to... who is to blame.
Can we just try fixing the problem instead of point fingers? Er... bug the devs to fix the problem. You know what I mean.
The thing is, in that thread, the revamped mirror was a failed experiment, not "on the right track", becouse how it was implemented. The whole 1 ship aggroing/tanking while other clicking never worked cuz of "wrong" skills given to the NPCs. Didnt matter squat any aggro/tanking since they had aoes like torp spread and BFAW. Even mirandas have bfav, so in the end it was pointless the whole tactic wich you "were supposed" to use in there. Same with the undine ships in the undine space BZ at klingon points. Lets say 2 ships came, cloaked. One was decloaking, starting aggroing all ships and move away trying to lure the ships. The 2nd ship would decloak, even at 9,9km from those ships, and start to click and the undine ships would just forget about the aggro ship starting to fire at the clicking one
And the same was the case of the spheres in ISE. Ppl hated them having the wrong skills (EPtE), not having skills in general. Chasing a ship wich eventually would get stuck in the gate wasnt challanging, it was annoying. Another thing wouldve been the case if they had EPtS and/or TT.
The thing is, in that thread, the revamped mirror was a failed experiment, not "on the right track", becouse how it was implemented. The whole 1 ship aggroing/tanking while other clicking never worked cuz of "wrong" skills given to the NPCs. Didnt matter squat any aggro/tanking since they had aoes like torp spread and BFAW. Even mirandas have bfav, so in the end it was pointless the whole tactic wich you "were supposed" to use in there. Same with the undine ships in the undine space BZ at klingon points. Lets say 2 ships came, cloaked. One was decloaking, starting aggroing all ships and move away trying to lure the ships. The 2nd ship would decloak, even at 9,9km from those ships, and start to click and the undine ships would just forget about the aggro ship starting to fire at the clicking one
And the same was the case of the spheres in ISE. Ppl hated them having the wrong skills (EPtE), not having skills in general. Chasing a ship wich eventually would get stuck in the gate wasnt challanging, it was annoying. Another thing wouldve been the case if they had EPtS and/or TT.
The AoE skills of the mirror ships didn't hurt at all IMHO. In fact they encouraged even more thinking outside the box... because of the very fact that it was difficult to approach without prep or thinking on the fly. I've seen AoE mirror ships being placated, barrier'd, lured away, and Subnuked. Hell, my main's ship could even close most rifts without drawing a single aggro most of the time. It was successful because there wasn't a direct approach to the situation all the time, and required at least some semblance of teamwork to work.
Your solution...go stick your head in the sand trying to avoid the problem. How does somebody not know where their head is? It's on top of their neck...it's important to keep track of that sort of thing.
I called it merely a day after Delta Rising hit in this thread. Then we backtrack to... who is to blame.
Can we just try fixing the problem instead of point fingers? Er... bug the devs to fix the problem. You know what I mean.
After two and a half months, it's pretty clear they either aren't interested in fixing the problems or don't know how (and since they won't acknowledge the problems, I'm going with the former), so to be honest, at this point I'm just going to go with "blame".
The desire for constructive criticism is noble, but it assumes there's a receptive audience for that feedback, and the game's EP and lead designer have shown no interest in player feedback.
Your solution...go stick your head in the sand trying to avoid the problem. How does somebody not know where their head is? It's on top of their neck...it's important to keep track of that sort of thing.
Let me know when you have fixed it, Boss. Good luck with that.
The time limits in place on STFs and PVE content promote higher DPS to succeed.
The problem isn't us, or people wanting higher DPS, the problem is the game matches are setup to exploit and promote higher DPS to win. This game is DPS based, and that is by design.
The only way it can change, is to change the goals of STFs. Removing time limits for optionals. for one. Time limits mean you need a lot of DPS to beat the clock. It's simple logic.
The time limits in place on STFs and PVE content promote higher DPS to succeed.
The problem isn't us, or people wanting higher DPS, the problem is the game matches are setup to exploit and promote higher DPS to win. This game is DPS based, and that is by design.
The only way it can change, is to change the goals of STFs. Removing time limits for optionals. for one. Time limits mean you need a lot of DPS to beat the clock. It's simple logic.
So the only fix, is to change it.
Do you even need 5% of the DPS that the DPS folks are doing though? You've got folks doing 1-1.5% of their DPS...there's all sorts of room to do all sorts of things while not doing 1-1.5% of their DPS and blaming them or Cryptic for it.
Do you even need 5% of the DPS that the DPS folks are doing though? You've got folks doing 1-1.5% of their DPS...there's all sorts of room to do all sorts of things while not doing 1-1.5% of their DPS and blaming them or Cryptic for it.
it IS cryptic, they made the game, the players didn't...what kind of fantasy world where players who have NO responsibility for the mechanics of the game are blamed for the shortcomings that the game has?
should we blame YOU for the sony hack? you have as much responsibility for that hack as players using the mechanics of the game they didn't create.
it is wholly and completely cryptics fault. if there weren't mechanics in place that allowed it...it wouldn't happen, simple truth. doesn't matte if you don't like that truth, don't believe in it, deny it.
that won't change that truth. cryptic makes the game, it's mechanics, systems, code, all of it.
players play it. sheer stupidity to blame players for playing the damn game as it is designed.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
it IS cryptic, they made the game, the players didn't...what kind of fantasy world where players who have NO responsibility for the mechanics of the game are blamed for the shortcomings that the game has?
A shortcoming of the game is that players can do 20 times the damage needed to do the content? That those that can't do 1/100th of that complain?
Would appear that Cryptic has developed it with options in mind...
...that some players that are unable to meet the most basic content requirements are complaining.
...that some players that feel that content needs to be done in a quarter of the time or less are complaining.
Sure looks like a lot of players looking to blame everybody but themselves.
There are all sorts of broken things to chastise Cryptic about...bad players and impatient players...that's players.
I put twenty chocolate cakes on the table in front of you. You eat all twenty cakes. It's obviously my fault.
A shortcoming of the game is that players can do 20 times the damage needed to do the content? That those that can't do 1/100th of that complain?
Would appear that Cryptic has developed it with options in mind...
...that some players that are unable to meet the most basic content requirements are complaining.
...that some players that feel that content needs to be done in a quarter of the time or less are complaining.
Sure looks like a lot of players looking to blame everybody but themselves.
There are all sorts of broken things to chastise Cryptic about...bad players and impatient players...that's players.
I put twenty chocolate cakes on the table in front of you. You eat all twenty cakes. It's obviously my fault.
/facepalm
Take some responsibility.
how does any of that shift the blame? players can and do complain about everything in mmo's, some legit, some not.
the basic, unalterable fact is whether the complaints are legit or not is that the developers CONTROL THE GAME. everything in it. players work and play within those confines and rulesets. there is no logical or rational stretch where a player is at fault (excluding external exploits) for game mechanics.
cryptics biggest mistake was leaving no alternatives to obtain required items. making advancement to higher tier rewards entirely dependent on damage output. put a timer on any mission as a fail condition and you have a race...in sto's case a DPS race. that's their mechanics, not the players.
some players prefer to do these grindy missions as quickly as possible with the greatest chance of success each run...now how is this accomplished? maximum output. so once again, this is cryptic creation and the players responding to the mechanics they implemented.
though if you want to rationalize...think that was mentioned earlier in this topic regarding heads and sand...sure you can blame anyone in that case as long as you ignore logic.
edit:
throw away the chocolate analogy, doesn't work in this context IN THE SLIGHTEST. sad sad reach there for some kind of legitimacy.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
the basic, unalterable fact is whether the complaints are legit or not is that the developers CONTROL THE GAME. everything in it. players work and play within those confines and rulesets. there is no logical or rational stretch where a player is at fault (excluding external exploits) for game mechanics.
Even there, you've given the reason why some players are to blame for their own complaints. I mean, ffs, you've given the answer to your very question.
cryptics biggest mistake was leaving no alternatives to obtain required items. making advancement to higher tier rewards entirely dependent on damage output. put a timer on any mission as a fail condition and you have a race...in sto's case a DPS race. that's their mechanics, not the players.
Yes, put a timer on a mission. A 15 minute timer, eh? One that doesn't even start until after the initial engagement? On a mission folks are running in 6-9 minutes on average...total? That the best players are doing in a minute...total?
So where exactly is that timer? Cryptic didn't put the need to do it in 6-9 minutes that some folks feel. Players put that timer there.
As for not having alternatives...there's alternatives for everything.
some players prefer to do these grindy missions as quickly as possible with the greatest chance of success each run...now how is this accomplished? maximum output. so once again, this is cryptic creation and the players responding to the mechanics they implemented.
Again, you just stated the reason it is the player's fault. It's their preference to do it that way. Cryptic didn't say they had to do it that way.
though if you want to rationalize...think that was mentioned earlier in this topic regarding heads and sand...sure you can blame anyone in that case as long as you ignore logic.
Which is what you're doing, even when you're providing all the counterarguments to your own argument...
edit:
throw away the chocolate analogy, doesn't work in this context IN THE SLIGHTEST. sad sad reach there for some kind of legitimacy.
Maybe I should have used all the examples you provided of how you're wrong, eh?
But guess what, it's still the chocolate cake. You're still choosing to do something that they didn't say you had to do and blaming them for it. :rolleyes:
There is so much TRIBBLE broken in this game - so much TRIBBLE that could be improved...
...Cryptic can't fix players being bad at the game (they've tried, it just made the game worse on so many levels).
...Cryptic can't fix players being entitled spoiled brats that want everything yesterday (but they're going to take advantage of it, while allowing those that aren't to play at their leisure and have fun).
There is so much TRIBBLE broken in this game - so much TRIBBLE that could be improved...
...Cryptic can't fix players being bad at the game (they've tried, it just made the game worse on so many levels).
...Cryptic can't fix players being entitled spoiled brats that want everything yesterday (but they're going to take advantage of it, while allowing those that aren't to play at their leisure and have fun).
not going to quote that broken up post.
if you want to blame the players who are working wihin the confines of the mechanics they're given and cannot see how illogical and stupid that is so be it.
cryptic could curtail the damage output...they don't.
are you new to this game or never played it? there are endgame missions with timers...or did you ignore that fact in another attempt to make a point?
cryptic could reduce the HP sponge mobs...they don't.
the could return optionals to being optional...they don't
they could introduce other routes for mats and items...they don't
how can you even sit there with a straight face and try to claim than any of the games mechanics are the players fault? what...do players magically mind control cryptic to introduce the mechanics that they don't even like? that players are forcing cryptic to introduce hp sponges, consoles and weapons that can produce insane numbers?
if cryptic wants to do something they can, if players want to do something to change the mechanics...they ask cryptic. what part of that don't you get? pretty simple i thought.
though that wonderful wonderful rationalizations you have. 'it's players doing it' in the face of who has the actual power to change the game and it is certainly not the players. cryptic could rein ALL of it in. don't know if you're a troll, delusional or stupid. you try to take your argument to any logical rational person and they'd tell you the same.
you cannot change what you cannot control, you cannot change game mechanics unless you are cryptic. why should players limit themselves when the mechanics of the game which are WORKING AS INTENDED allow uber builds?
unless of course YOU work at cryptic...in which case all your arguments make perfect sense from that perspective. blame the players.
Dr. Patricia Tanis ~ "Bacon is for sycophants and products of incest."
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
There is so much TRIBBLE broken in this game - so much TRIBBLE that could be improved...
...Cryptic can't fix players being bad at the game (they've tried, it just made the game worse on so many levels).
...Cryptic can't fix players being entitled spoiled brats that want everything yesterday (but they're going to take advantage of it, while allowing those that aren't to play at their leisure and have fun).
So how did Cryptic try to make bad players better? I haven't seen it, making content stupid easy just lowers the bar, it doesn't improve the player. They have no absolutely nothing to fix the idocy of the super fast pace and ship hopping of levelling. They still equip new ships with random garbage, they still don't tell people what anything does, they don't explain mechanics. There is no freedom to set up Boffs without major penalties at low levels.
It is Cryptic's job to do provide the players with at least mostly correct information about the game, instead they set them up to fail with the worst possible Boff powers and ship layouts.
It is also the nature of people to want the most for the least, we are greedy by default. Every MMO has a boat load of people on the forums begging for unbalanced and game breaking powers. It is the devs job to know what is and what is not acceptable. Since the lead dev here has no clue how the game really works, its pretty obvious why we are in a situation that we are.
The reality is back at the start of the game there were limits to ship power levels, Boff seating, weapons drain and ship styles that limited or capped damage done. By selling more and more powerful ships they broken through several of those limits again and again until people were able to multiple their DPS a few times over through mechanics that were never supposed to exist, but do because it sells. You can not blame players for wanting more, just like you can't blame your pet tiger for trying to eat you.
The entire definition of MMO is massive. You have a very large number of people playing, there will exist people who want to leach, troll, min/max, RP, slack and everything inbetween. It is the dev's job to account for this, this isn't recreation, its a job, its supposed to be professional. The players are here for recreation, they don't need to be professional.
So if its someone's idea of fun to max their DPS, more power to them, at one point in STO I was like that, but once they crushed the STF difficulty to pathetic there wasn't a point anymore, you could forgo any kind of endurance and build all DPS builds, its only gotten worse.
What game really does that? What game really tells you how it all works together?
It seems from my experience of TOR that the devs actually have certain power rotations in mind whent they designed their classes. But they aren't explained in game.
I am playing Secret World now, too, and again, it seems there is some idea behind how to combine weapons/focuses and what powers work well together. But is it really "explained"? I don't think so.
So, what games really "explain" things? I think most games just give you stats, bonuses, and let players figure it out themselves. They may have a tooltip description, but will they tell you what power play well with what other powers? What a "bread & butter" skill is (if it's not declared an "energy builder").
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It's nice to see that the forums have more white knight postings than ever (most in this thread, it seems) now that most other forum posters have given up and/or just quit. I'm glad you're enjoying your newfound power and quasi-spam-worthy efforts to repeatedly pound the rest of the playerbase into believing that cryptic are really the victims here and the game is really awesome and all that.
I'm happy for you, I really am. It's the biggest self-reinforcing argument since... well.. since I can't remember when. Congrats! Somebody call Guinness.
What game really does that? What game really tells you how it all works together?
It seems from my experience of TOR that the devs actually have certain power rotations in mind whent they designed their classes. But they aren't explained in game.
I am playing Secret World now, too, and again, it seems there is some idea behind how to combine weapons/focuses and what powers work well together. But is it really "explained"? I don't think so.
So, what games really "explain" things? I think most games just give you stats, bonuses, and let players figure it out themselves. They may have a tooltip description, but will they tell you what power play well with what other powers? What a "bread & butter" skill is (if it's not declared an "energy builder").
Eh, when you have a boff power that says "Upgrades cannon attacks" verses a something like increases base weapon damage by 30% over 10s, it makes an incredibly large difference. Knowing which powers affect base vs. overall stats, knowing what your defense score does in the game, what a resistance does, other games DO explain these things.
Nothing is going to tell you how to string together attacks, but if the information is available somewhere in a clear way you can figure it out. When you have to guess what anything and everything does because nothing shows any detail then you have no hope of being capable.
After two and a half months, it's pretty clear they either aren't interested in fixing the problems or don't know how (and since they won't acknowledge the problems, I'm going with the former), so to be honest, at this point I'm just going to go with "blame".
Being "clear" is subjective. I can't see how it's clear when standard procedure(or at least what IMO SHOULD be standard procedure) is that when content is released, waiting a few months to see if the supposed "problems" are just players getting used to it, or if it's a genuine problem will give the devs more insight into the situation. This is because that when content is fresh, a development team can't tell between players complaining that things are different because they're different or complaining that there's a genuine problem with the content. The lines get less blurred over time.
Changing anything within 2 months of its release, unless the devs can tell if it catastrophically cripples the game, if very foolish from a development standpoint. Especially if constructive criticism is discouraged, as discouraging constructive criticism demonstrates a lack of respect for the team that brings us the game in the first place, and is effectively useless when attempting to actually find something that's actually wrong with the game. Which brings me to my next point.
The desire for constructive criticism is noble, but it assumes there's a receptive audience for that feedback, and the game's EP and lead designer have shown no interest in player feedback.
Encouraging constructive criticism doesn't necessarily assume anything. The alternatives for it however rarely prove to be useful at all. In fact, the dev team has explicitly stated several times that they avoid posts if the posts seem to contain nothing constructive. If you truly want this game to be how you want it to be, the most rational route would be to give the dev team the benefit of the doubt and provide the most constructive and easily approachable criticism in as mature and clear a fashion as possible.
Player feedback has indeed been proven to get through to them. The D'deridex wouldn't have the BOFF layout it has now if it wasn't for player feedback. We might not have swimsuits to wear on Risa if it wasn't for player feedback. Brandon's appearance as the official captain of the U.S.S. Avenger was probably because we bugged Cryptic about it so much. There are many many more examples, these being just off the top of my head.
But hey, don't take it from a 'white knight' 'developer apologist' like me. Do some research for yourself.
It is Cryptic's job to do provide the players with at least mostly correct information about the game, instead they set them up to fail with the worst possible Boff powers and ship layouts.
I'm sorry that you think the game doesn't do a good job teaching mechanics, but the fact is that the information is out there - it's freely available. Learn to be a self directed learner, instead of waiting for someone to spoon feed you the information you "need". Seriously. I can't tell you how often I run into situations where people do things like skip through the briefings for a mission, and then start the mission by saying in chat "What are we supposed to do?" (or else simply do something nonsensical until instructed otherwise), as if someone taking the time to type out a briefing for them is more efficient or effective than if the player had just read the freaking briefing in the first place.
In my opinion, the single biggest reason people fail at being effective players is the belief you are perpetuating here - that it is the responsibility of the developers (or other, more experienced players) to "force" players to learn the mechanics. Heck, the very existence of the more knowledgeable players proves that it is possible to learn how the game works if you want to - it's not like things like "run single energy types to maximize console benefits" are rocket science, and in any case, if someone has a question about how the game works, it turns out that in 1873 Sir Archibald de GoogleIt developed a process by which anyone could use the web-mo-trons to seek answers to those questions. Here's an example.
I'm also not sure what could ever possibly fit that bill beyond what the game already provides. There is a tutorial, plus when players get to things like R+D and the Spec trees there are additional tutorials to talk them through that - you may remember them as "Those missions I skipped because they take too long" and "Those popup windows with text I won't read and voice over I won't listen to". That's not Cryptic's problem - that's squarely on the shoulders of the players who won't take the time or spend the effort to learn.
Comments
Can we just try fixing the problem instead of point fingers? Er... bug the devs to fix the problem. You know what I mean.
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Your solution is head in sand...case you missed it.
Cause you're not really avoiding the problem 100% by pretending it is not there.
There are ramifications of the problem that go beyond just how it affects you.
I don't remember that particular console, but I remember other things, such as the black hole console (unless I am getting confused and that is what you are talking about) which would totally shut a person down so they were 100% disabled. It was eventually changed, and people bitched about how PvPers got it nerfed, despite it actually being a bit more useful in PvE after that.
There have been a few other things nerfed pretty much only for a PvP reason, but those are the exception really.
I get what you are saying about 'actions speak louder than words', it's true, PvPers would show (sometimes even in videos) just how effective something was, and it might end up changed. From that, the game was probably better for it, but players would blame PvPers for it, because it was the easy thing to do. Which it was, it's easy to put blame on any small minority of players, no matter who that might be, and whatever the reason is.
Say you have Mob X. I increase the health of Mob X Do you just need increased DPS to deal with Mob X? Do you have to survive longer yourself during the process of eliminating Mob X as well? Would working in debuffs and buffs be a means of increasing that DPS and survival? Would it require more active play from the player?
Course, the level at which they did it, imho, should have been done back around S6/S7.
Kind of like the Mirror Revamp, that might have been interesting if done before S6. By the time they did, it was an interesting idea - Escorts to blow stuff up, Cruisers for the Gens, and Sci Vessels for the Rifts - but everybody cold blow everything up fast enough that even with the first one it didn't matter...and thus the complaints about twiddling thumbs for 3-4 minutes waiting. It was that much worse with the last one.
With the F2P conversion, the obvious market would be the casual/extremely casual player and selling them all sorts of magic to allow them to do stuff. It's going to be the largest potential base out there. There are more Star Trek fans than there are Star Trek gamers.
With that comes expectations for playtime vs. rewards - ye olde golden rule Cryptic used to work with of getting X for around 15 minutes play. The increased health, etc, etc, etc - while it would add increased difficulty to some and require a more active engagement from them, imho, it was more about trying to move things back to expected durations for rewards being earned. They couldn't actually increase the difficulty too much for the players that had been their bread and butter since the conversion. They'd outright lose them. So...try to extend the length of engagement.
Which is where it gets into the DR "difficulty" increase not being about doing anything for the DPS crowds out there...didn't really have anything to do with them. It was just a case that even the average players were blowing through things, earning their rewards, too fast...and the need to slow that down.
Course, a bunch of folks had become accustomed to how quickly they were earning stuff...and...they weren't happy about it. Which goes back to what I said about Cryptic kind of starting it too late...they should have been addressing this back as they went into S6 and all along the way. Not the "oh, hey guys - er - maybe we should do something about this" that they finally did...
My head is not in the sand. I'm not the one banging my face against a wall of stupid over and over and over expecting it to magically disappear. Keep pugging. Keep failing. Keep crying. You know what is in there so keep going there getting what you get and either suck it up and take what happens or change your ways and do something about it that you can do about it. Stay out of pugs and run with people you know in premade teams.
If you can't pull your head out of wherever it is long enough to get that, then that's your problem. You go right on defending the enablers and I'll go right on saying the ones who do it aren't exploiting anything by not being in the big club with the fancy hats. You want to call 5k dps leeches, trolls, and griefers. Knock yourself out. You choose to play that way and keep your head in the hole.
Reply to your addition: And what exactly am I to do about it beyond me? Scream at people in pugs? Tell them how their pathetic lives are ruining my day? Or do I not pug and avoid the whole mess without any further problems to me? Which works best here? Because the Cryptic you are defending doesn't care as long as they keep buying keys and you keep spending money. They will cater to both as long as your wallets are out.
In the meantime, you have options to avoid it. Head in the sand is refusing to raise your eyes above the dirt to see them.
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Problem is is that every time someone starts a thread on that subject the elite DPSers usually show up to argue that everything is alright and nothing needs to be fixed, the OP included.
The thing is, in that thread, the revamped mirror was a failed experiment, not "on the right track", becouse how it was implemented. The whole 1 ship aggroing/tanking while other clicking never worked cuz of "wrong" skills given to the NPCs. Didnt matter squat any aggro/tanking since they had aoes like torp spread and BFAW. Even mirandas have bfav, so in the end it was pointless the whole tactic wich you "were supposed" to use in there. Same with the undine ships in the undine space BZ at klingon points. Lets say 2 ships came, cloaked. One was decloaking, starting aggroing all ships and move away trying to lure the ships. The 2nd ship would decloak, even at 9,9km from those ships, and start to click and the undine ships would just forget about the aggro ship starting to fire at the clicking one
And the same was the case of the spheres in ISE. Ppl hated them having the wrong skills (EPtE), not having skills in general. Chasing a ship wich eventually would get stuck in the gate wasnt challanging, it was annoying. Another thing wouldve been the case if they had EPtS and/or TT.
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Your solution...go stick your head in the sand trying to avoid the problem. How does somebody not know where their head is? It's on top of their neck...it's important to keep track of that sort of thing.
After two and a half months, it's pretty clear they either aren't interested in fixing the problems or don't know how (and since they won't acknowledge the problems, I'm going with the former), so to be honest, at this point I'm just going to go with "blame".
The desire for constructive criticism is noble, but it assumes there's a receptive audience for that feedback, and the game's EP and lead designer have shown no interest in player feedback.
Let me know when you have fixed it, Boss. Good luck with that.
The problem isn't us, or people wanting higher DPS, the problem is the game matches are setup to exploit and promote higher DPS to win. This game is DPS based, and that is by design.
The only way it can change, is to change the goals of STFs. Removing time limits for optionals. for one. Time limits mean you need a lot of DPS to beat the clock. It's simple logic.
So the only fix, is to change it.
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Do you even need 5% of the DPS that the DPS folks are doing though? You've got folks doing 1-1.5% of their DPS...there's all sorts of room to do all sorts of things while not doing 1-1.5% of their DPS and blaming them or Cryptic for it.
it IS cryptic, they made the game, the players didn't...what kind of fantasy world where players who have NO responsibility for the mechanics of the game are blamed for the shortcomings that the game has?
should we blame YOU for the sony hack? you have as much responsibility for that hack as players using the mechanics of the game they didn't create.
it is wholly and completely cryptics fault. if there weren't mechanics in place that allowed it...it wouldn't happen, simple truth. doesn't matte if you don't like that truth, don't believe in it, deny it.
that won't change that truth. cryptic makes the game, it's mechanics, systems, code, all of it.
players play it. sheer stupidity to blame players for playing the damn game as it is designed.
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A shortcoming of the game is that players can do 20 times the damage needed to do the content? That those that can't do 1/100th of that complain?
Would appear that Cryptic has developed it with options in mind...
...that some players that are unable to meet the most basic content requirements are complaining.
...that some players that feel that content needs to be done in a quarter of the time or less are complaining.
Sure looks like a lot of players looking to blame everybody but themselves.
There are all sorts of broken things to chastise Cryptic about...bad players and impatient players...that's players.
I put twenty chocolate cakes on the table in front of you. You eat all twenty cakes. It's obviously my fault.
/facepalm
Take some responsibility.
how does any of that shift the blame? players can and do complain about everything in mmo's, some legit, some not.
the basic, unalterable fact is whether the complaints are legit or not is that the developers CONTROL THE GAME. everything in it. players work and play within those confines and rulesets. there is no logical or rational stretch where a player is at fault (excluding external exploits) for game mechanics.
cryptics biggest mistake was leaving no alternatives to obtain required items. making advancement to higher tier rewards entirely dependent on damage output. put a timer on any mission as a fail condition and you have a race...in sto's case a DPS race. that's their mechanics, not the players.
some players prefer to do these grindy missions as quickly as possible with the greatest chance of success each run...now how is this accomplished? maximum output. so once again, this is cryptic creation and the players responding to the mechanics they implemented.
though if you want to rationalize...think that was mentioned earlier in this topic regarding heads and sand...sure you can blame anyone in that case as long as you ignore logic.
edit:
throw away the chocolate analogy, doesn't work in this context IN THE SLIGHTEST. sad sad reach there for some kind of legitimacy.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
In the way it has been explained countless times.
Even there, you've given the reason why some players are to blame for their own complaints. I mean, ffs, you've given the answer to your very question.
Yes, put a timer on a mission. A 15 minute timer, eh? One that doesn't even start until after the initial engagement? On a mission folks are running in 6-9 minutes on average...total? That the best players are doing in a minute...total?
So where exactly is that timer? Cryptic didn't put the need to do it in 6-9 minutes that some folks feel. Players put that timer there.
As for not having alternatives...there's alternatives for everything.
Again, you just stated the reason it is the player's fault. It's their preference to do it that way. Cryptic didn't say they had to do it that way.
Which is what you're doing, even when you're providing all the counterarguments to your own argument...
Maybe I should have used all the examples you provided of how you're wrong, eh?
But guess what, it's still the chocolate cake. You're still choosing to do something that they didn't say you had to do and blaming them for it. :rolleyes:
...Cryptic can't fix players being bad at the game (they've tried, it just made the game worse on so many levels).
...Cryptic can't fix players being entitled spoiled brats that want everything yesterday (but they're going to take advantage of it, while allowing those that aren't to play at their leisure and have fun).
not going to quote that broken up post.
if you want to blame the players who are working wihin the confines of the mechanics they're given and cannot see how illogical and stupid that is so be it.
cryptic could curtail the damage output...they don't.
are you new to this game or never played it? there are endgame missions with timers...or did you ignore that fact in another attempt to make a point?
cryptic could reduce the HP sponge mobs...they don't.
the could return optionals to being optional...they don't
they could introduce other routes for mats and items...they don't
how can you even sit there with a straight face and try to claim than any of the games mechanics are the players fault? what...do players magically mind control cryptic to introduce the mechanics that they don't even like? that players are forcing cryptic to introduce hp sponges, consoles and weapons that can produce insane numbers?
if cryptic wants to do something they can, if players want to do something to change the mechanics...they ask cryptic. what part of that don't you get? pretty simple i thought.
though that wonderful wonderful rationalizations you have. 'it's players doing it' in the face of who has the actual power to change the game and it is certainly not the players. cryptic could rein ALL of it in. don't know if you're a troll, delusional or stupid. you try to take your argument to any logical rational person and they'd tell you the same.
you cannot change what you cannot control, you cannot change game mechanics unless you are cryptic. why should players limit themselves when the mechanics of the game which are WORKING AS INTENDED allow uber builds?
unless of course YOU work at cryptic...in which case all your arguments make perfect sense from that perspective. blame the players.
Donate Brains, zombies in Washington DC are starving.
So how did Cryptic try to make bad players better? I haven't seen it, making content stupid easy just lowers the bar, it doesn't improve the player. They have no absolutely nothing to fix the idocy of the super fast pace and ship hopping of levelling. They still equip new ships with random garbage, they still don't tell people what anything does, they don't explain mechanics. There is no freedom to set up Boffs without major penalties at low levels.
It is Cryptic's job to do provide the players with at least mostly correct information about the game, instead they set them up to fail with the worst possible Boff powers and ship layouts.
It is also the nature of people to want the most for the least, we are greedy by default. Every MMO has a boat load of people on the forums begging for unbalanced and game breaking powers. It is the devs job to know what is and what is not acceptable. Since the lead dev here has no clue how the game really works, its pretty obvious why we are in a situation that we are.
The reality is back at the start of the game there were limits to ship power levels, Boff seating, weapons drain and ship styles that limited or capped damage done. By selling more and more powerful ships they broken through several of those limits again and again until people were able to multiple their DPS a few times over through mechanics that were never supposed to exist, but do because it sells. You can not blame players for wanting more, just like you can't blame your pet tiger for trying to eat you.
The entire definition of MMO is massive. You have a very large number of people playing, there will exist people who want to leach, troll, min/max, RP, slack and everything inbetween. It is the dev's job to account for this, this isn't recreation, its a job, its supposed to be professional. The players are here for recreation, they don't need to be professional.
So if its someone's idea of fun to max their DPS, more power to them, at one point in STO I was like that, but once they crushed the STF difficulty to pathetic there wasn't a point anymore, you could forgo any kind of endurance and build all DPS builds, its only gotten worse.
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It seems from my experience of TOR that the devs actually have certain power rotations in mind whent they designed their classes. But they aren't explained in game.
I am playing Secret World now, too, and again, it seems there is some idea behind how to combine weapons/focuses and what powers work well together. But is it really "explained"? I don't think so.
So, what games really "explain" things? I think most games just give you stats, bonuses, and let players figure it out themselves. They may have a tooltip description, but will they tell you what power play well with what other powers? What a "bread & butter" skill is (if it's not declared an "energy builder").
I'm happy for you, I really am. It's the biggest self-reinforcing argument since... well.. since I can't remember when. Congrats! Somebody call Guinness.
Eh, when you have a boff power that says "Upgrades cannon attacks" verses a something like increases base weapon damage by 30% over 10s, it makes an incredibly large difference. Knowing which powers affect base vs. overall stats, knowing what your defense score does in the game, what a resistance does, other games DO explain these things.
Nothing is going to tell you how to string together attacks, but if the information is available somewhere in a clear way you can figure it out. When you have to guess what anything and everything does because nothing shows any detail then you have no hope of being capable.
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Changing anything within 2 months of its release, unless the devs can tell if it catastrophically cripples the game, if very foolish from a development standpoint. Especially if constructive criticism is discouraged, as discouraging constructive criticism demonstrates a lack of respect for the team that brings us the game in the first place, and is effectively useless when attempting to actually find something that's actually wrong with the game. Which brings me to my next point.
Encouraging constructive criticism doesn't necessarily assume anything. The alternatives for it however rarely prove to be useful at all. In fact, the dev team has explicitly stated several times that they avoid posts if the posts seem to contain nothing constructive. If you truly want this game to be how you want it to be, the most rational route would be to give the dev team the benefit of the doubt and provide the most constructive and easily approachable criticism in as mature and clear a fashion as possible.
Player feedback has indeed been proven to get through to them. The D'deridex wouldn't have the BOFF layout it has now if it wasn't for player feedback. We might not have swimsuits to wear on Risa if it wasn't for player feedback. Brandon's appearance as the official captain of the U.S.S. Avenger was probably because we bugged Cryptic about it so much. There are many many more examples, these being just off the top of my head.
But hey, don't take it from a 'white knight' 'developer apologist' like me. Do some research for yourself.
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I'm sorry that you think the game doesn't do a good job teaching mechanics, but the fact is that the information is out there - it's freely available. Learn to be a self directed learner, instead of waiting for someone to spoon feed you the information you "need". Seriously. I can't tell you how often I run into situations where people do things like skip through the briefings for a mission, and then start the mission by saying in chat "What are we supposed to do?" (or else simply do something nonsensical until instructed otherwise), as if someone taking the time to type out a briefing for them is more efficient or effective than if the player had just read the freaking briefing in the first place.
In my opinion, the single biggest reason people fail at being effective players is the belief you are perpetuating here - that it is the responsibility of the developers (or other, more experienced players) to "force" players to learn the mechanics. Heck, the very existence of the more knowledgeable players proves that it is possible to learn how the game works if you want to - it's not like things like "run single energy types to maximize console benefits" are rocket science, and in any case, if someone has a question about how the game works, it turns out that in 1873 Sir Archibald de GoogleIt developed a process by which anyone could use the web-mo-trons to seek answers to those questions. Here's an example.
I'm also not sure what could ever possibly fit that bill beyond what the game already provides. There is a tutorial, plus when players get to things like R+D and the Spec trees there are additional tutorials to talk them through that - you may remember them as "Those missions I skipped because they take too long" and "Those popup windows with text I won't read and voice over I won't listen to". That's not Cryptic's problem - that's squarely on the shoulders of the players who won't take the time or spend the effort to learn.
GG Cryptic.
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