The ironic thing is that most players that I play Elite queues with on PublicEliteSTF aren't DPS powerhouses at all. In fact, I barely scrape 10K in my Mobius.
What I like about the game currently is that the hardest queues require STRATEGY. The team needs to be coordinated, focused, and competent in order to complete them. Shooting everything until it dies is no longer a viable solution for 99.9% of the playerbase if you want to play top-floor missions. I like that.
Of course, if you're hitting 60-100K DPS in Elites, you still don't really need strategy, but...so? Who cares if 0.1% of the STO community can get stuff faster than the rest of us? It probably cost them a ton of resources and time to put together their monster damage build anyway...
See? You have your mind made up as do a couple thousand others on both sides. You step into their little world when you join a random pug and they step into yours. Eliminate the random pug and you eliminate the little world. Complaining about it won't change it but not going into it will. They are not forcing it onto you or me or anyone else. You are placing yourself into their little world by joining the entrance lottery into any one of a thousand of random little worlds. If you know what is behind Random Door X, why go into Random Door X? I'm not saying remove the public queue from the game, remove yourself from the public queue. It's like complaining of stepping in a cow pile while running through a cow pasture. Not going into the pasture at all is the best way to not step into a pile.
You do realize that there are "Normal" queues as well, right? The way you say it, everyone gets lumped into the same version of the STF, with no choice involved as to what level they want.
I'm not talking about incompetence in Normal queues, I have no interest in them. I'm talking about people skipping Normal for whatever reason, and joining something they likely KNOW they can't handle. I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious, because you're saying people that can handle Advanced/Elite should not queue for them because of leechers and griefers- which is already hurting the game.
I don't join Normal, because I am not at that level.
People at Normal level (or below) join Advanced and Elite, but can't pull their weight.
I should now also not join Advanced or Elite, because of these people (even though the queues are turning into a tumbleweed laden joke). But they're not forcing anything on me. Huh? None of what you're saying makes logical sense.
The ironic thing is that most players that I play Elite queues with on PublicEliteSTF aren't DPS powerhouses at all. In fact, I barely scrape 10K in my Mobius.
What I like about the game currently is that the hardest queues require STRATEGY. The team needs to be coordinated, focused, and competent in order to complete them. Shooting everything until it dies is no longer a viable solution for 99.9% of the playerbase if you want to play top-floor missions. I like that.
Of course, if you're hitting 60-100K DPS in Elites, you still don't really need strategy, but...so? Who cares if 0.1% of the STO community can get stuff faster than the rest of us? It probably cost them a ton of resources and time to put together their monster damage build anyway...
No, you dont know what your saying. Ignorance really shows.
If you have played with them, they have more organization and teamwork than you can possibly get. It is the reason why they have the top DPS. Things like:
Did your group wait for pets to help in debuffing or zerg to the mission?
Did your group plan your Tac Fleets or wasted all your alphas in the 1st second?
Did your group even bring debuff weapons or debuff boffs?
Did you reform the group and restarted the mission when you all died trying to get a GDF?
You wouldnt get this kind of teamwork/organization on a PuG or just any other group.
There are differences though in the teamwork of non dps focused team and dps focused team. Let say ISA, a non DPS group would be required to GW the spheres from the gate while a DPS group wouldnt.
Ragging on PvP-ers is something I get, as they're generally the most vocal about getting everything nerfed. But what did the DPS-ers ever do?! Other than showing they can do 160k+, they're completely harmless. And they didn't make it more difficult for anyone. In fact, an STF like CSA is easier than ever. Even (a non-bugged spawn of) Korfez is a breeze.
Sorry, but I disagree. PvPers in the past (when they had enough vocality pre-DR) and DPS folks are effectively the same thing. The main difference is what they do. PvPers...PvP. The DPS folks mostly do PvE.
The thing they did was use the mechanics of the game to their fullest extent.
PvPers would show how effective something would be when everything was done to improve it to it's maxinum level. DPs would show how something would be used to complete a mission even faster.
Besides, the whole 'PvPers got things nerfed' came from the fact that whenever an item, DOFF, whatever would appear the devs would 'listen' to PvPers only because they DID show how effective something could be.
But there was no consistency to it. They didn't really seem to listen to the ideas given, merely that 'it should be changed'. Even then, they only listened when they wanted to. 99% of stuff ever released was almost never changed.
PvPers would get blamed anytime something did, not because of the item changes (or so it felt to me) but because the 'fun' of an item was nerfed.
If PvPers ever really did have the devs' ears as so many have hyperbolically claimed over the years, this game would be much different.
Point is that all that stuff applies for how the DPS folks are treated sometimes. Doesn't matter what they might say, do, or show, because the devs will only listen to what they feel like listening to and changing. Which more and more is becoming less and less, if at all.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Cryptic feels they need to use the average most popularly successful tactic as the aspect to challenge. There are a few aspects, survivability, maneuverability, support, and attack. All the successful kids are choosing attack. So Cryptic is challenging everyone to focus on damage per second.
Either that, or they just chose it because it was easy to implement.
You do realize that there are "Normal" queues as well, right? The way you say it, everyone gets lumped into the same version of the STF, with no choice involved as to what level they want.
I'm not talking about incompetence in Normal queues, I have no interest in them. I'm talking about people skipping Normal for whatever reason, and joining something they likely KNOW they can't handle. I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious, because you're saying people that can handle Advanced/Elite should not queue for them because of leechers and griefers- which is already hurting the game.
I don't join Normal, because I am not at that level.
People at Normal level (or below) join Advanced and Elite, but can't pull their weight.
I should now also not join Advanced or Elite, because of these people (even though the queues are turning into a tumbleweed laden joke). But they're not forcing anything on me. Huh? None of what you're saying makes logical sense.
It makes 100% sense. Take it up with Cryptic. They are the ones that allow them to join via the system. It's not what I realize or you realize or anyone else realizes. If you don't like it, don't go into a public queue. And no, they are not forcing anything on you. You choose where you go. They don't force you to go there.
I never said they should. Look back. I said they can. I said they want to. I said they do. I said they pay for their entitlement to do so just like you do, I do, and everyone else here does. I also said you know where they are. I said you know how to avoid it. You choose to go there. If you want to run in that big cow pasture, be ready to step in piles.
That is what this thread is about, right? The system that allows for this, that, and everything else? Until Cryptic fixes the system, that's how it is. That's how it's going to be. And that's how they want it apparently because it has always been that way. It's just worse now with mandatory optionals. The angst is worse. The "us" vs "them" is worse. And the queues are empty because no one wants to deal with it.
Also, virusdancer has specifically stated that he doesn't do 25k DPS. There's a difference between "ROFLstomp record run" and "incompetent failure."
Lol, I'm used it. I got called an elitist for asking folks try to do 3-4k instead of less than 1-2k after having posted a no-names with one of my toons, an Eng in a Marauder, having done ~5k. Because if everybody was doing at least 3-4k, in that area, then while we still could TRIBBLE it up - we'd at least have a chance at success.
I'm not big on things like calling folks incompetent, noobs (any variation), or the like. No doubt I can be blunt, a douche, inflammatory, a downright ******* at times...but I'm not here to coddle folks, tell them "There, there...it's okay that you're TRIBBLE everybody else over."
Folks have helped me, I try to help folks...either with the little I know or pointing them over to somebody or some group that I've seen about that might have the answers or help they're looking for. That's the key thing...the difference between the folks doing that 1-2k DPS that want to a contributing member of the team and the...
...selfish folks, that will make every excuse they can and blame everybody but themselves.
What that person was saying, I've said it myself in a way. Yeah, if folks want everybody running with 25-30k+...TRIBBLE them, they can take that TRIBBLE to one of the channels and put together a group. They're trying to put their preferences/requirements on the content because they want a fast and easy run.
I still find it odd, that some of the folks out there will say the same TRIBBLE you to folks asking that people try to be the least bit prepared to meet the content's requirements.
"Okay, everybody needs the Acme 9001 canoe for our little canoe trip this afternoon. It's the best canoe ever, and if you're not bringing it - you need to stay away."
Yeah, TRIBBLE them. --^
"Okay guys, we're going on a canoe trip this weekend. Everybody bring a canoe. We'll have some fun."
Let people play what they want, as long as it's not a detriment to the team, how bout?
One would think it was obvious...joining a team, wanting to be a contributing member of the team, etc, etc, etc...
...but this game is full of selfish and entitled folks that don't give a rat's TRIBBLE about anybody but themselves and expect to be allowed to leech through content to get the rewards they so obviously deserve.
...but this game is full of selfish and entitled folks that don't give a rat's TRIBBLE about anybody but themselves and expect to be allowed to leech through content to get the rewards they so obviously deserve.
Exactly. It's allowed. That makes them entitled to do it. They aren't circumventing some system of checks and balances to get there. This game is rife with leeches, exploiters, and freeloaders because the system encourages it.
Exactly. It's allowed. That makes them entitled to do it. They aren't circumventing some system of checks and balances to get there. This game is rife with leeches, exploiters, and freeloaders because the system encourages it.
Think about what you're saying. Honestly...just because something perhaps allows it or offers the opportunity for it...doesn't make it encouraged. Certainly doesn't make it right. Definitely doesn't excuse it. So why are you placing the blame anywhere but on the folks doing it?
Think about what you're saying. Honestly...just because something perhaps allows it or offers the opportunity for it...doesn't make it encouraged. Certainly doesn't make it right. Definitely doesn't excuse it. So why are you placing the blame anywhere but on the folks doing it?
We all have been dealing with this garbage since day 1, which came sooner for some of us than for others. We have been complaining about it since day 1. The blame is on Cryptic for not fixing it but while it's broken, there is more to blame than just them.
Just like most bugs, there is a workaround. You are not forced to endure it. You can avoid it 100% of the time. So yes, I place the blame on the people that insist they should be able to go into a broken system and not have to deal with the broken system and what it puts in the event with them.
There is a saying. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein.
Continuing to feed your angst by going into this mess is all on you.
Speaking of mindless...in regard to tank, heals, and DPS...over in those real MMOs.
So you've got this epic boss - this mastermind who is a thread to the known world, that's raised massive armies, and oh woe is us - we're all doomed unless we defeat this villain!
So this dire threat...
Focuses on the target it's least likely to kill, while ignoring the target that's keeping that target alive, and while ignoring the targets that are actually killing it.
Yet people think that MMO Trinity mindless nonsense is good? No, it's a pathetic fail system that coddles casual players...it's mindless.
Usually, I would never disagree with you Virus but, this time I kind of have to!
This game has mechanics designed around trinity, yet the narrow dps everything focus throws it completely out the door.
No need for CC, because any class can do this or, just kill everything too quickly to need it.
No need for a dedicated healer, because everyone is an actual dedicated healer in some fashion or, simply blow everything up far faster than even requiring 1 heal.
No need for a agro tank, because anyone can do this job, provided they actually want to, because most players opt to have to no agro at all.
It's like playing 1 huge game of hot potato, where npc agro is the hot potato!
Might as well eliminate any and, all cross healing, along with CC, armor, etc.
Why need any of this outside of pvp, when all you need is dps in pve?
I'm not attacking Sinn, or you, Virus, or the OP, or the 100k dps or the 1k dps. I'm saying we have what we have. It is what it is. We know what it is and we know what it is not. We know how to avoid it or we can go wade in it.
I rarely pug. When I do, I go into it expecting the worst, not the best. I go into it expecting to see things go wrong that I couldn't possibly image going wrong. One reason I rarely pug is I am not a 25k dpser. I'm a 12k to 15k on most runs and sometimes better and sometimes the only thing doing damage is my warp core breach. I know what I can do and what I can't do. I have friends who know what I can do and what I can't do and I know what they can do and what they can't do. I also know I can do better. I also know that sometimes I can do a lot worse.
Like I said. It is what it is. That's how it's made. That's how it's done. Until they change it - and I'm not holding my breath - that's how I will do it myself and to think it's going to magically get better because I expect it to is just nuts.
I always find it amazing that people have no problem with "DPS" (which everyone does, just to varying degrees) in the FEs, where they are forced to do it themselves, but it's automatically evil and bad design when they get on a team.
Player 1 "OK, we need to kill things"
Player 2 "Well, how about you target everything, take all the damage that brings, and I'll try to heal you enough to make up for it"
Player 1 "I'd rather you help me kill things"
Player 2 "But I do other things instead"
Player 1 "We're here to kill things, though. I can heal myself if you just do your part helping kill things"
Player 2 "You're ruining the game"
Player 1 "No I am not"
Player 2 "Ok than, how about you kill everything by yourself, since you don't really need my help!"
Player 1 "Sure I do, my dps isn't sufficient enough on my own"
Player 2 "Guess than, maybe you need ask for the dps channels help"
Player 1 "What would that solve?"
Player 2 "Not needing anyone for help, just blow thru everything on your own!"
Player 1 "Huh, well are you going to help me than?"
Player 2 "No, you don't need a dedicated class outside of dps to help you so, I will take off now"
Player 1 "But, I need someone to help me"
Player 2 "Guess you should blame the Devs for, creating trinity skills in a game focused only on dps than!"
Player 1 "Why is that?"
Player 2 "Because they should have made all skills only self heal and, all others kill only attack skills, no need for anything else right?"
Usually, I would never disagree with you Virus but, this time I kind of have to!
I have to disagree with him as well. Some of the hardest, most rewarding raids / fights I've ever had in MMOs are in games that use the 'lame old' trinity.
Tribunal fight in EQ was friggin epic, and in no way 'coddling' casuals.
The thing that baffles me when people talk about how the trinity sucks and should be replaced, is that nobody has anything to replace it with. At least not that I've seen. The only 'answer' I've seen so far is a bunch of people doing as much damage as they can without dying.
I have to disagree with him as well. Some of the hardest, most rewarding raids / fights I've ever had in MMOs are in games that use the 'lame old' trinity.
Tribunal fight in EQ was friggin epic, and in no way 'coddling' casuals.
The thing that baffles me when people talk about how the trinity sucks and should be replaced, is that nobody has anything to replace it with. At least not that I've seen. The only 'answer' I've seen so far is a bunch of people doing as much damage as they can without dying.
And that tends to lead to, a completely different form of coddling!
The coddling of anti-socialistic gaming or, coddling of elitism socialistic gathering only or, the complete and utter player base segregation into mini- socialistic gatherings only.
Basically, putting real life society problems and, social communities into a game, where fantasy becomes virtually reality!
It makes 100% sense. Take it up with Cryptic. They are the ones that allow them to join via the system. It's not what I realize or you realize or anyone else realizes. If you don't like it, don't go into a public queue. And no, they are not forcing anything on you. You choose where you go. They don't force you to go there.
Wait- so I'm FORCED to go into private queues, but they're not forcing me to do anything. Wha?
You say I shouldn't "go into the alleys where the bums are," but I'm going into alleys that say "No Bums." And. yet, there they be, unapologetic.
The devs have stated that Advanced and Elite queues are not for everyone. They stated it when they came out. Because they didn't put some draconian measure in to police this, it's intended that people leech of of and troll these queues? I call BS.
I never said they should. Look back. I said they can. I said they want to. I said they do. I said they pay for their entitlement to do so just like you do, I do, and everyone else here does. I also said you know where they are. I said you know how to avoid it. You choose to go there. If you want to run in that big cow pasture, be ready to step in piles.
Problem is, I'm running in a baseball field, and what should be in the pasture (Normal queues) is in the baseball field (Advanced queues). You're saying "Now the baseball fields are empty, but, so what. It's your fault for going into the baseball field that clearly says that it's not a pasture."
That is what this thread is about, right? The system that allows for this, that, and everything else? Until Cryptic fixes the system, that's how it is. That's how it's going to be. And that's how they want it apparently because it has always been that way. It's just worse now with mandatory optionals. The angst is worse. The "us" vs "them" is worse. And the queues are empty because no one wants to deal with it.
Some are trying to "deal with it," but you're saying that they should just throw up their hands and stay out of the queues. You know, the fairly empty queues that everyone complains about. Your "solution" is to just let the problem be a problem, and to do everything but address it. That people are "entitled" to be sneaky and dishonest, or just plainly troll people.
It's funny, you're talking about the bottom 1% of the game who actually are responsible for a lot of the problems, instead of the top 1% the OP is talking about. The difference is, the bottom 1% are causing STF failures and directly affecting peoples gameplay.
Usually, I would never disagree with you Virus but, this time I kind of have to!
This game has mechanics designed around trinity, yet the narrow dps everything focus throws it completely out the door.
No need for CC, because any class can do this or, just kill everything too quickly to need it.
No need for a dedicated healer, because everyone is an actual dedicated healer in some fashion or, simply blow everything up far faster than even requiring 1 heal.
No need for a agro tank, because anyone can do this job, provided they actually want to, because most players opt to have to no agro at all.
It's like playing 1 huge game of hot potato, where npc agro is the hot potato!
Might as well eliminate any and, all cross healing, along with CC, armor, etc.
Why need any of this outside of pvp, when all you need is dps in pve?
I'm not big on "need"...I prefer options. Pretty sure either in this thread or another recently where I was bashing the MMO Trinity, I mentioned that Cryptic had the right idea behind the characters but they failed to deliver on the content. Maybe it was a post I started for the Constructive thread but got bored typing and just closed the tab...heh.
Imagine what a difference it would make if Cryptic were simply to reduce the number of mobs we face? If STO didn't have the monster farm lobbing the grenades in a barrel of fish thing going for it, eh?
If instead of blowing up half a dozen weak mobs, there was a single stronger mob. Then you haven't created need, but imho you've created options.
Think it was in the Learning Advanced thread, maybe - I can't remember if I actually posted it there or not - but I was thinking about it with what one guy said about being a drain boat. If there are a bunch of weak targets, the effectiveness of things like drains are diminished...the targets are already dead...what's the point, eh?
If instead you had fewer targets, stronger targets - where the overall design goal of the combat engagement taking the same time with the fewer targets or even being increased since they're not likely meeting their time goals with how fast things are popping, then that drain might just make the difference on how long it takes to pop the target, eh?
If the targets aren't all obliterated in a blink of an eye, then maybe you might want somebody to tank more of the damage. Maybe you'd want somebody around to heal the players more.
It wouldn't create the need for it, folks could still try and do things in different ways. Some groups might tackle it with DPS, but they might lose some folks along the way so it will take X time. Some groups might tackle it with a mix of debuffing, drains, and the like - so while they don't have as much damage, they'll still get it done in around X time.
STO's content is a slaughterfest...clump 'n thump...DPS out the wahzoo. Very little lives long enough for anything else to matter. Change that...other things might matter more, yeah?
We all have been dealing with this garbage since day 1, which came sooner for some of us than for others. We have been complaining about it since day 1. The blame is on Cryptic for not fixing it but while it's broken, there is more to blame than just them.
Just like most bugs, there is a workaround. You are not forced to endure it. You can avoid it 100% of the time. So yes, I place the blame on the people that insist they should be able to go into a broken system and not have to deal with the broken system and what it puts in the event with them.
There is a saying. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein.
Continuing to feed your angst by going into this mess is all on you.
I leave a window open. Somebody sees that. They come in my home, steal my Cheetos and Diet Mountain Dew. Am I to blame? No doubt it's naive not to think that there are not people out there that will come in to take my Cheetos and Diet Mountain Dew...but am I to blame?
So why blame Cryptic? Again, it's squarely on the people doing it. Just because something is possible doesn't mean one has to do it. People need to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable for the TRIBBLE they do. Cryptic deserves all the blame in the world for all the TRIBBLE they actually do...but folks just seem to love to blame them for everything, even when the blame obviously belongs somewhere else.
It's like this thread...the folks that want to blame those DPS folks for stuff. If the folks that seek to blame everybody else for the TRIBBLE they're doing put half of that effort into addressing their own issues...but nah, it's easier to make excuses and blame everybody else.
There's lots of anger in this thread. The players shouldn't be arguing among themselves and blaming each other for the current state of affairs.
It's nobody's fault but the developers. They put this system in place.
Direct your complaints to the people behind it. Fight the actual illness not the symptoms.
Fault Cryptic for what's their fault...but so much of the TRIBBLE isn't their fault. All the broken TRIBBLE is their fault. Players need to accept responsibility for all their garbage though...otherwise we'll need to start building arks for the flood of tears at this rate.
Exactly. It's allowed. That makes them entitled to do it. They aren't circumventing some system of checks and balances to get there. This game is rife with leeches, exploiters, and freeloaders because the system encourages it.
Exactly the way that it's "allowed" that people steal tips out of tip jars on counters, and that people are entitled to them, if there isn't a cop with a gun staring at the counter during business hours. :rolleyes:
Wait- so I'm FORCED to go into private queues, but they're not forcing me to do anything. Wha?
You say I shouldn't "go into the alleys where the bums are," but I'm going into alleys that say "No Bums." And. yet, there they be, unapologetic.
The devs have stated that Advanced and Elite queues are not for everyone. They stated it when they came out. Because they didn't put some draconian measure in to police this, it's intended that people leech of of and troll these queues? I call BS.
Problem is, I'm running in a baseball field, and what should be in the pasture (Normal queues) is in the baseball field (Advanced queues). You're saying "Now the baseball fields are empty, but, so what. It's your fault for going into the baseball field that clearly says that it's not a pasture."
Some are trying to "deal with it," but you're saying that they should just throw up their hands and stay out of the queues. You know, the fairly empty queues that everyone complains about. Your "solution" is to just let the problem be a problem, and to do everything but address it. That people are "entitled" to be sneaky and dishonest, or just plainly troll people.
It's funny, you're talking about the bottom 1% of the game who actually are responsible for a lot of the problems, instead of the top 1% the OP is talking about. The difference is, the bottom 1% are causing STF failures and directly affecting peoples gameplay.
Yes. The baseball field has a gate that lets cows in to make piles. Cryptic put the cow gate in the baseball field. They put these nice tufts of grass in there too so the cows really want to get in there and get to that grass but they can't play baseball. All they can do is eat grass and makes piles. So while you are running bases expecting to be on a baseball field without cows even though the field has a gate that lets cows in whether they can play baseball or not, you know that there is a private field down the road that doesn't have a cow gate. You can't be bothered to play there. You want to play in this field your way and on your terms.
It's not going to happen. The sooner you move to the private field without a cow gate, the better your game is going to be. Blame the people who put the gate there. Not the cows who wander in. You can 100% of the time avoid the cows but you don't want to. Cryptic has hung a "No shirt. No shoes. No service." sign at a nude beach and people still expect shirts to be worn.
But this is useless. You know how to avoid it. It doesn't matter if it is rude or naive or whatever else you want to call it. You know it's there. Argue all you want, it's not going to change it. Wish it away. Close your eyes and rub the lamp. But the genie isn't home to grant you any wishes.
Besides, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. You can't change it or it would be changed. You go another way or you go the hard way. It's your choice.
Yes. The baseball field has a gate that lets cows in to make piles. Cryptic put the cow gate in the baseball field. They put these nice tufts of grass in there too so the cows really want to get in there and get to that grass but they can't play baseball. All they can do is eat grass and makes piles. So while you are running bases expecting to be on a baseball field without cows even though the field has a gate that lets cows in whether they can play baseball or not, you know that there is a private field down the road that doesn't have a cow gate. You can't be bothered to play there. You want to play in this field your way and on your terms.
It's not going to happen. The sooner you move to the private field without a cow gate, the better your game is going to be. Blame the people who put the gate there. Not the cows who wander in. You can 100% of the time avoid the cows but you don't want to. Cryptic has hung a "No shirt. No shoes. No service." sign at a nude beach and people still expect shirts to be worn.
Blame the devs for not going to ridiculous lengths to stop people from being sneaky and dishonest? Seriously, what could they possibly do to stop this? Hire people to watch every STF and ban people who are leeching? :rolleyes:
How bout I blame the people who are being sneaky and dishonest, and try not to let them dictate to me how to play the game?
Blame the devs for not going to ridiculous lengths to stop people from being sneaky and dishonest? Seriously, what could they possibly do to stop this? Hire people to watch every STF and ban people who are leeching? :rolleyes:
How bout I blame the people who are being sneaky and dishonest, and try not to let them dictate to me how to play the game?
Then prepare to fail and be angry a lot. Blame whomever you want. You will still have the problem.
Cryptic pushed overcap. Cryptic decided BFAW didn't need to drain your weapons power, that Beam Overload would/should not drain weapons power.
Cryptic didn't push overcap, imho.
They provided overcap as an option for people that were complaining they couldn't do enough DPS as certain careers or in certain boats. They provided something for those folks that were asking for it. And it was fine...they'd nerfed the +PWR consoles, and so folks looking to do the overcap of weapons would have to sacrifice in another area. It was somewhat balanced in a twisted sort of way. Players asked...they received.
Cryptic went about trying to balance the Romulans with lower initial power settings for the ships and what they could do. Folks complained. They wanted more power - they needed more power. Players asked...they received.
Course, that totally screwed up what Cryptic had done previously...but Cryptic didn't do the nonsense out of the blue. Players asked...whined, moaned, threw dirty diapers at them...and Cryptic answered.
BO...BO was a DPS-loss for PVE. So Cryptic reduced the damage, removed the drain, made it autocrit, and added in a trait that couldn't be stacked with FAW alone. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
CRYPTIC decided that drains should be for everyone and distributed Leech and Aceton TO everyone.
Cryptic had already decided that drains should be for everyone...there were no factional restrictions on drain abilities. Did they decide to make certain consoles crossfaction? Yep, they did. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
CRYPTIC gave you Romulan Bridge Officers with Superior Romulan Operative and massive Crit bonuses.
Yep, because those pesky Engineers and Science Captains didn't have access to APA...but the Tac Captains already had access to what the Eng and Sci could do. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
CRYPTIC created Duty officers that penetrate shields on the (automatically critting) Beam Overloads that cost no energy to use.
A single VR EWO Pen DOFF has a 35% chance to proc 30% shield penetration. This shield penetration also affects projectile damage. They also added in those Omni-Directional Beam Arrays. So you can slot a BO1 and run min Weapon Power to have a shot at increasing your torp damage.
Yes, folks asked for increased shield penetration...Cryptic delivered.
They also did the Enhanced Shield Penetration Reputation Trait. They also did the Intelligence Fleet in the Intelligence Specialization.
CRYPTIC writes Mobs that are massive sax of hitpoints, and CRYPTIC decided that they should be stupid mobs, that unlike players, they don't need to rely on buffs that can be stripped by the majority of the abiliities CRYPTIC creates for players.
Cryptic has tried multiple times to provide smarter mobs. Forums flooded with tears. Folks asked Cryptic not to do that (some of the most tear intensive threads ever each time Cryptic tries to do that)...so Cryptic backtracks.
it is by CRYPTIC's actions, that DPS is king in PvE, that the DPS channels have continued to ramp higher, and higher, and higher every update, every season, every quarter, that runaway powercreep is the very thing that CRYPTIC was reacting to when they changed the old Elites into Advanced, and created the new Elites, and called it 'increasing difficulty' when the actual result was increasing time-spent, not difficulty, depth, OR complexity.
Glad you said actions there...yep, Cryptic's actions - at the request of the players.
It doesn't effect rote-memorization and that's all you need to win-a group that's already memorized the map, timing, etc. of the dumb-as-post NPC's. after that, it's just leveraging the power-creep CRYPTIC put into the game, and you get the sub-minute ISA, etc. runs.
Players have expressed an extreme dislike of any form of dynamic gameplay...Cryptic has delivered.
Damn Cryptic for giving the players what they asked for!!!!
Mind you, I really wish Cryptic would stop listening to that particular group of players and start listening to some of the others...
...but yeah, almost every stupid damn thing (planned, not the unplanned garbage they do) that Cryptic has done has been at the request of the players.
I spend way too much time on the forums...but yeah, Cryptic has a tendency to listen to what are some of the stupidest requests and complaints on the forums and act upon them...they're all out there, all the folks asking for the nonsense or raging against anything that imho would be an improvement.
Different strokes for different folks and all that...and the longer one plays this game, the more it can be obvious that this is definitely a game for some of the different folks out there.
Take the pet nerf--who gets hurt there? The overinflated few, or the vast majority of the player base who cannot afford the resources in time and money to get out of a build when they get nerfed to death?
That is just Geko and his scheming: make bucks by selling something too good to be true (Aquatic Carrier pets leap to mind); then nerf it, after all, because it really *was* too good to be true.
Ironically, the one thing about pets that probably really *should* be nerfed, and is used by high DPS-ers, is the Recluse beta-stacking, which was left unattended.
I'm afraid that my feelings on this have worsened recently now that we saw extreme DPS'ers go into PUGs, TRIBBLE over other players into AFK penalties who were trying to help but had no fair chance, and not even recognize that an incident like that means that until Cryptic fixes the AFK penalty, an apology isn't enough from extreme DPSers--they do not belong in public queues, period.
Or... the other way around: when ppl do so poorly in their queue as to incur an AFK-penalty, then maybe they don't belong in that queue level, period. 'Advanced' is fair game for everyone. And I doubt you'll see many DPS-ers in 'Normals.'
When a kid is asking for a toy, you can give him, no matter what, and you'll ends up with a spoiled brat.
Cryptic say yes to every powercreep the community ask. On the other hand, they are very shy to provide QoL improvement when we ask for it.
But then, it's easy to monetize the powercreep, and difficult to sale QoL patch.
And then, people wonder why we have this unbalanced mess they call a game.
And seriously, in pretty much any MMO I know of, we have balance patch (even small one) regularly. In STO, we sometime have a fix or nerf after a new power is introduced, but never after.
No wonder this game is in this poor state.
Players are almost to blame (almost, because it was obvious in the end) because they found out that any STO content is incredibly easy if you have a crazy amount of DPS, and went that way. In fact, this is true for many other MMO, but they usually add some barriers to prevent that.
Comments
There now! That was just a reporting error! You know that. :P
What I like about the game currently is that the hardest queues require STRATEGY. The team needs to be coordinated, focused, and competent in order to complete them. Shooting everything until it dies is no longer a viable solution for 99.9% of the playerbase if you want to play top-floor missions. I like that.
Of course, if you're hitting 60-100K DPS in Elites, you still don't really need strategy, but...so? Who cares if 0.1% of the STO community can get stuff faster than the rest of us? It probably cost them a ton of resources and time to put together their monster damage build anyway...
You do realize that there are "Normal" queues as well, right? The way you say it, everyone gets lumped into the same version of the STF, with no choice involved as to what level they want.
I'm not talking about incompetence in Normal queues, I have no interest in them. I'm talking about people skipping Normal for whatever reason, and joining something they likely KNOW they can't handle. I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious, because you're saying people that can handle Advanced/Elite should not queue for them because of leechers and griefers- which is already hurting the game.
I don't join Normal, because I am not at that level.
People at Normal level (or below) join Advanced and Elite, but can't pull their weight.
I should now also not join Advanced or Elite, because of these people (even though the queues are turning into a tumbleweed laden joke). But they're not forcing anything on me. Huh? None of what you're saying makes logical sense.
If Voyager says it's backwards, and anyone else says it's right, I believe anyone else. :P
No, you dont know what your saying. Ignorance really shows.
If you have played with them, they have more organization and teamwork than you can possibly get. It is the reason why they have the top DPS. Things like:
Did your group wait for pets to help in debuffing or zerg to the mission?
Did your group plan your Tac Fleets or wasted all your alphas in the 1st second?
Did your group even bring debuff weapons or debuff boffs?
Did you reform the group and restarted the mission when you all died trying to get a GDF?
You wouldnt get this kind of teamwork/organization on a PuG or just any other group.
There are differences though in the teamwork of non dps focused team and dps focused team. Let say ISA, a non DPS group would be required to GW the spheres from the gate while a DPS group wouldnt.
Sorry, but I disagree. PvPers in the past (when they had enough vocality pre-DR) and DPS folks are effectively the same thing. The main difference is what they do. PvPers...PvP. The DPS folks mostly do PvE.
The thing they did was use the mechanics of the game to their fullest extent.
PvPers would show how effective something would be when everything was done to improve it to it's maxinum level. DPs would show how something would be used to complete a mission even faster.
Besides, the whole 'PvPers got things nerfed' came from the fact that whenever an item, DOFF, whatever would appear the devs would 'listen' to PvPers only because they DID show how effective something could be.
But there was no consistency to it. They didn't really seem to listen to the ideas given, merely that 'it should be changed'. Even then, they only listened when they wanted to. 99% of stuff ever released was almost never changed.
PvPers would get blamed anytime something did, not because of the item changes (or so it felt to me) but because the 'fun' of an item was nerfed.
If PvPers ever really did have the devs' ears as so many have hyperbolically claimed over the years, this game would be much different.
Point is that all that stuff applies for how the DPS folks are treated sometimes. Doesn't matter what they might say, do, or show, because the devs will only listen to what they feel like listening to and changing. Which more and more is becoming less and less, if at all.
Either that, or they just chose it because it was easy to implement.
It makes 100% sense. Take it up with Cryptic. They are the ones that allow them to join via the system. It's not what I realize or you realize or anyone else realizes. If you don't like it, don't go into a public queue. And no, they are not forcing anything on you. You choose where you go. They don't force you to go there.
I never said they should. Look back. I said they can. I said they want to. I said they do. I said they pay for their entitlement to do so just like you do, I do, and everyone else here does. I also said you know where they are. I said you know how to avoid it. You choose to go there. If you want to run in that big cow pasture, be ready to step in piles.
That is what this thread is about, right? The system that allows for this, that, and everything else? Until Cryptic fixes the system, that's how it is. That's how it's going to be. And that's how they want it apparently because it has always been that way. It's just worse now with mandatory optionals. The angst is worse. The "us" vs "them" is worse. And the queues are empty because no one wants to deal with it.
Lol, I'm used it. I got called an elitist for asking folks try to do 3-4k instead of less than 1-2k after having posted a no-names with one of my toons, an Eng in a Marauder, having done ~5k. Because if everybody was doing at least 3-4k, in that area, then while we still could TRIBBLE it up - we'd at least have a chance at success.
I'm not big on things like calling folks incompetent, noobs (any variation), or the like. No doubt I can be blunt, a douche, inflammatory, a downright ******* at times...but I'm not here to coddle folks, tell them "There, there...it's okay that you're TRIBBLE everybody else over."
Folks have helped me, I try to help folks...either with the little I know or pointing them over to somebody or some group that I've seen about that might have the answers or help they're looking for. That's the key thing...the difference between the folks doing that 1-2k DPS that want to a contributing member of the team and the...
...selfish folks, that will make every excuse they can and blame everybody but themselves.
What that person was saying, I've said it myself in a way. Yeah, if folks want everybody running with 25-30k+...TRIBBLE them, they can take that TRIBBLE to one of the channels and put together a group. They're trying to put their preferences/requirements on the content because they want a fast and easy run.
I still find it odd, that some of the folks out there will say the same TRIBBLE you to folks asking that people try to be the least bit prepared to meet the content's requirements.
"Okay, everybody needs the Acme 9001 canoe for our little canoe trip this afternoon. It's the best canoe ever, and if you're not bringing it - you need to stay away."
Yeah, TRIBBLE them. --^
"Okay guys, we're going on a canoe trip this weekend. Everybody bring a canoe. We'll have some fun."
"TRIBBLE you, I'm not going to bring a canoe!"
Like...wtf?
One would think it was obvious...joining a team, wanting to be a contributing member of the team, etc, etc, etc...
...but this game is full of selfish and entitled folks that don't give a rat's TRIBBLE about anybody but themselves and expect to be allowed to leech through content to get the rewards they so obviously deserve.
Exactly. It's allowed. That makes them entitled to do it. They aren't circumventing some system of checks and balances to get there. This game is rife with leeches, exploiters, and freeloaders because the system encourages it.
Think about what you're saying. Honestly...just because something perhaps allows it or offers the opportunity for it...doesn't make it encouraged. Certainly doesn't make it right. Definitely doesn't excuse it. So why are you placing the blame anywhere but on the folks doing it?
We all have been dealing with this garbage since day 1, which came sooner for some of us than for others. We have been complaining about it since day 1. The blame is on Cryptic for not fixing it but while it's broken, there is more to blame than just them.
Just like most bugs, there is a workaround. You are not forced to endure it. You can avoid it 100% of the time. So yes, I place the blame on the people that insist they should be able to go into a broken system and not have to deal with the broken system and what it puts in the event with them.
There is a saying. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein.
Continuing to feed your angst by going into this mess is all on you.
Usually, I would never disagree with you Virus but, this time I kind of have to!
This game has mechanics designed around trinity, yet the narrow dps everything focus throws it completely out the door.
No need for CC, because any class can do this or, just kill everything too quickly to need it.
No need for a dedicated healer, because everyone is an actual dedicated healer in some fashion or, simply blow everything up far faster than even requiring 1 heal.
No need for a agro tank, because anyone can do this job, provided they actually want to, because most players opt to have to no agro at all.
It's like playing 1 huge game of hot potato, where npc agro is the hot potato!
Might as well eliminate any and, all cross healing, along with CC, armor, etc.
Why need any of this outside of pvp, when all you need is dps in pve?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I rarely pug. When I do, I go into it expecting the worst, not the best. I go into it expecting to see things go wrong that I couldn't possibly image going wrong. One reason I rarely pug is I am not a 25k dpser. I'm a 12k to 15k on most runs and sometimes better and sometimes the only thing doing damage is my warp core breach. I know what I can do and what I can't do. I have friends who know what I can do and what I can't do and I know what they can do and what they can't do. I also know I can do better. I also know that sometimes I can do a lot worse.
Like I said. It is what it is. That's how it's made. That's how it's done. Until they change it - and I'm not holding my breath - that's how I will do it myself and to think it's going to magically get better because I expect it to is just nuts.
Here, added to the story some for you!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I have to disagree with him as well. Some of the hardest, most rewarding raids / fights I've ever had in MMOs are in games that use the 'lame old' trinity.
Tribunal fight in EQ was friggin epic, and in no way 'coddling' casuals.
The thing that baffles me when people talk about how the trinity sucks and should be replaced, is that nobody has anything to replace it with. At least not that I've seen. The only 'answer' I've seen so far is a bunch of people doing as much damage as they can without dying.
And that tends to lead to, a completely different form of coddling!
The coddling of anti-socialistic gaming or, coddling of elitism socialistic gathering only or, the complete and utter player base segregation into mini- socialistic gatherings only.
Basically, putting real life society problems and, social communities into a game, where fantasy becomes virtually reality!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Wait- so I'm FORCED to go into private queues, but they're not forcing me to do anything. Wha?
You say I shouldn't "go into the alleys where the bums are," but I'm going into alleys that say "No Bums." And. yet, there they be, unapologetic.
The devs have stated that Advanced and Elite queues are not for everyone. They stated it when they came out. Because they didn't put some draconian measure in to police this, it's intended that people leech of of and troll these queues? I call BS.
Problem is, I'm running in a baseball field, and what should be in the pasture (Normal queues) is in the baseball field (Advanced queues). You're saying "Now the baseball fields are empty, but, so what. It's your fault for going into the baseball field that clearly says that it's not a pasture."
Some are trying to "deal with it," but you're saying that they should just throw up their hands and stay out of the queues. You know, the fairly empty queues that everyone complains about. Your "solution" is to just let the problem be a problem, and to do everything but address it. That people are "entitled" to be sneaky and dishonest, or just plainly troll people.
It's funny, you're talking about the bottom 1% of the game who actually are responsible for a lot of the problems, instead of the top 1% the OP is talking about. The difference is, the bottom 1% are causing STF failures and directly affecting peoples gameplay.
It's nobody's fault but the developers. They put this system in place.
Direct your complaints to the people behind it. Fight the actual illness not the symptoms.
Free Tibet!
I'm not big on "need"...I prefer options. Pretty sure either in this thread or another recently where I was bashing the MMO Trinity, I mentioned that Cryptic had the right idea behind the characters but they failed to deliver on the content. Maybe it was a post I started for the Constructive thread but got bored typing and just closed the tab...heh.
Imagine what a difference it would make if Cryptic were simply to reduce the number of mobs we face? If STO didn't have the monster farm lobbing the grenades in a barrel of fish thing going for it, eh?
If instead of blowing up half a dozen weak mobs, there was a single stronger mob. Then you haven't created need, but imho you've created options.
Think it was in the Learning Advanced thread, maybe - I can't remember if I actually posted it there or not - but I was thinking about it with what one guy said about being a drain boat. If there are a bunch of weak targets, the effectiveness of things like drains are diminished...the targets are already dead...what's the point, eh?
If instead you had fewer targets, stronger targets - where the overall design goal of the combat engagement taking the same time with the fewer targets or even being increased since they're not likely meeting their time goals with how fast things are popping, then that drain might just make the difference on how long it takes to pop the target, eh?
If the targets aren't all obliterated in a blink of an eye, then maybe you might want somebody to tank more of the damage. Maybe you'd want somebody around to heal the players more.
It wouldn't create the need for it, folks could still try and do things in different ways. Some groups might tackle it with DPS, but they might lose some folks along the way so it will take X time. Some groups might tackle it with a mix of debuffing, drains, and the like - so while they don't have as much damage, they'll still get it done in around X time.
STO's content is a slaughterfest...clump 'n thump...DPS out the wahzoo. Very little lives long enough for anything else to matter. Change that...other things might matter more, yeah?
I leave a window open. Somebody sees that. They come in my home, steal my Cheetos and Diet Mountain Dew. Am I to blame? No doubt it's naive not to think that there are not people out there that will come in to take my Cheetos and Diet Mountain Dew...but am I to blame?
So why blame Cryptic? Again, it's squarely on the people doing it. Just because something is possible doesn't mean one has to do it. People need to take responsibility for their actions and be accountable for the TRIBBLE they do. Cryptic deserves all the blame in the world for all the TRIBBLE they actually do...but folks just seem to love to blame them for everything, even when the blame obviously belongs somewhere else.
It's like this thread...the folks that want to blame those DPS folks for stuff. If the folks that seek to blame everybody else for the TRIBBLE they're doing put half of that effort into addressing their own issues...but nah, it's easier to make excuses and blame everybody else.
Fault Cryptic for what's their fault...but so much of the TRIBBLE isn't their fault. All the broken TRIBBLE is their fault. Players need to accept responsibility for all their garbage though...otherwise we'll need to start building arks for the flood of tears at this rate.
Exactly the way that it's "allowed" that people steal tips out of tip jars on counters, and that people are entitled to them, if there isn't a cop with a gun staring at the counter during business hours. :rolleyes:
Yes. The baseball field has a gate that lets cows in to make piles. Cryptic put the cow gate in the baseball field. They put these nice tufts of grass in there too so the cows really want to get in there and get to that grass but they can't play baseball. All they can do is eat grass and makes piles. So while you are running bases expecting to be on a baseball field without cows even though the field has a gate that lets cows in whether they can play baseball or not, you know that there is a private field down the road that doesn't have a cow gate. You can't be bothered to play there. You want to play in this field your way and on your terms.
It's not going to happen. The sooner you move to the private field without a cow gate, the better your game is going to be. Blame the people who put the gate there. Not the cows who wander in. You can 100% of the time avoid the cows but you don't want to. Cryptic has hung a "No shirt. No shoes. No service." sign at a nude beach and people still expect shirts to be worn.
But this is useless. You know how to avoid it. It doesn't matter if it is rude or naive or whatever else you want to call it. You know it's there. Argue all you want, it's not going to change it. Wish it away. Close your eyes and rub the lamp. But the genie isn't home to grant you any wishes.
Besides, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. You can't change it or it would be changed. You go another way or you go the hard way. It's your choice.
Blame the devs for not going to ridiculous lengths to stop people from being sneaky and dishonest? Seriously, what could they possibly do to stop this? Hire people to watch every STF and ban people who are leeching? :rolleyes:
How bout I blame the people who are being sneaky and dishonest, and try not to let them dictate to me how to play the game?
Then prepare to fail and be angry a lot. Blame whomever you want. You will still have the problem.
Cryptic didn't push overcap, imho.
They provided overcap as an option for people that were complaining they couldn't do enough DPS as certain careers or in certain boats. They provided something for those folks that were asking for it. And it was fine...they'd nerfed the +PWR consoles, and so folks looking to do the overcap of weapons would have to sacrifice in another area. It was somewhat balanced in a twisted sort of way. Players asked...they received.
Cryptic went about trying to balance the Romulans with lower initial power settings for the ships and what they could do. Folks complained. They wanted more power - they needed more power. Players asked...they received.
Course, that totally screwed up what Cryptic had done previously...but Cryptic didn't do the nonsense out of the blue. Players asked...whined, moaned, threw dirty diapers at them...and Cryptic answered.
BO...BO was a DPS-loss for PVE. So Cryptic reduced the damage, removed the drain, made it autocrit, and added in a trait that couldn't be stacked with FAW alone. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
Cryptic had already decided that drains should be for everyone...there were no factional restrictions on drain abilities. Did they decide to make certain consoles crossfaction? Yep, they did. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
Which Cores would that be? Cause uh, you know, they did the 130 Shields, 130 Engines, 130 and 135 Aux...but over 125 Weapon Cores?
Yep, because those pesky Engineers and Science Captains didn't have access to APA...but the Tac Captains already had access to what the Eng and Sci could do. Players asked...Cryptic answered.
Asked for...delivered.
Asked for...delivered.
A single VR EWO Pen DOFF has a 35% chance to proc 30% shield penetration. This shield penetration also affects projectile damage. They also added in those Omni-Directional Beam Arrays. So you can slot a BO1 and run min Weapon Power to have a shot at increasing your torp damage.
Yes, folks asked for increased shield penetration...Cryptic delivered.
They also did the Enhanced Shield Penetration Reputation Trait. They also did the Intelligence Fleet in the Intelligence Specialization.
Folks asked...delivered.
Cryptic has tried multiple times to provide smarter mobs. Forums flooded with tears. Folks asked Cryptic not to do that (some of the most tear intensive threads ever each time Cryptic tries to do that)...so Cryptic backtracks.
Glad you said actions there...yep, Cryptic's actions - at the request of the players.
It's not an auto-fail...it's a fail, and somebody has to fail for it to fail. If players would stop failing, there would be no fails.
Players have expressed an extreme dislike of any form of dynamic gameplay...Cryptic has delivered.
Players asked for it.
Damn Cryptic for giving the players what they asked for!!!!
Mind you, I really wish Cryptic would stop listening to that particular group of players and start listening to some of the others...
...but yeah, almost every stupid damn thing (planned, not the unplanned garbage they do) that Cryptic has done has been at the request of the players.
I spend way too much time on the forums...but yeah, Cryptic has a tendency to listen to what are some of the stupidest requests and complaints on the forums and act upon them...they're all out there, all the folks asking for the nonsense or raging against anything that imho would be an improvement.
Different strokes for different folks and all that...and the longer one plays this game, the more it can be obvious that this is definitely a game for some of the different folks out there.
That is just Geko and his scheming: make bucks by selling something too good to be true (Aquatic Carrier pets leap to mind); then nerf it, after all, because it really *was* too good to be true.
Ironically, the one thing about pets that probably really *should* be nerfed, and is used by high DPS-ers, is the Recluse beta-stacking, which was left unattended.
Or... the other way around: when ppl do so poorly in their queue as to incur an AFK-penalty, then maybe they don't belong in that queue level, period. 'Advanced' is fair game for everyone. And I doubt you'll see many DPS-ers in 'Normals.'
Cryptic say yes to every powercreep the community ask. On the other hand, they are very shy to provide QoL improvement when we ask for it.
But then, it's easy to monetize the powercreep, and difficult to sale QoL patch.
And then, people wonder why we have this unbalanced mess they call a game.
And seriously, in pretty much any MMO I know of, we have balance patch (even small one) regularly. In STO, we sometime have a fix or nerf after a new power is introduced, but never after.
No wonder this game is in this poor state.
Players are almost to blame (almost, because it was obvious in the end) because they found out that any STO content is incredibly easy if you have a crazy amount of DPS, and went that way. In fact, this is true for many other MMO, but they usually add some barriers to prevent that.