With the information given...what reasonable hope would a pug have of completing a L60 Elite?
Unless you're going to claim being clairvoyant next, your assumptions are baseless. It could happen or it couldn't happen. Depends on the situation. And that's not the point of what we're talking about here in case you haven't noticed.
Again with the assumptions right? You know, just because I don't rant and nerd rage if something goes wrong like you probably do based on everything you said so far it doesn't mean I don't pull my weight in a PVE.
And again, given the information they've provided about what the L60 Elites will be like...what will it lead to other than massive risk and frustration?
If it's risk and frustration for you, just don't do it. You have alternatives. Easy enough, right?
I'm still puzzled as to why to you keep insisting something should be removed for everyone just because you don't happen to like it, don't believe in it or whatever your personal issue is.
Once again, if the L60 Elites are going to require certain gearing - certain abilities - and certain strategies/tactics that require practiced team play...how is that going to work with a pug?
Mate, I'm sorry to inform you that you have no case here. You're just repeating the same old stuff an trying to be all philosophical in a very simple discussion.
You're not clairvoyant to know how every single PUG will work. And that's completely not the topic of discussion here. The point of discussion is you insisting on one less option for people just because you don't like it or don't think it'll be efficient to your standards. While you have an alternative for yourself. Talking about ego.
This isn't some MMO Trinity game - where if the content requires ABC, you'll at least get ABC - this is completely open. One might say that pugs offer the greater challenge (Hell, I've said that in the past for both PvE and PVP)...but at what point does it just become silly? Reading that blog...Advanced looks like it will be a blast to try to pug with some of the changes they're making there. Elite? Er...
You would have made a point if they were forcing us to use PUGs only. As it stands, you have no point beyond - I don't like it, so noone should have access to it.
To what end? The challenge of it? Everybody dies in the first few minutes...it's over...you can try again in 30 minutes to an hour?
And why do you care what I and other people do with our chars. and our free time? Are you suposed to be the arbiter of how STO should be played or something? Is someone forcing you to do a fail PUG? To risk waiting 30 minutes to an hour?
Not wanting to read countless threads from folks complaining that somebody showed up to their STF and ruined it for everybody...is selfish? Cause I'd prefer that the folks running the Elite STFs are having a blast with the challenge and dropping out threads thanking Cryptic for finally giving them that challenge?
Let me make this as clear as possible:
shpoks' version: Players have options to choose from when playing elite queues. They can take a risk doing a PUG or they can try and set up a private group with people they know and trust.
virusdancer's version: Players don't have any other choice besides setting up privates because VD doesn't like them to do pugs.
Yeah...definitely sounds selfish on my part to think about the players that are showing up to try to get the job done instead of the players that just want the better reward offered and hope they get carried through it...
Yeah, definitely selfish on my part. :rolleyes:
You seem to have a comprehension problem mate. People are not droids. They can make choices for themselves. You want to limit that chocie in a big brother manner. You want to make the choice for them because you know best. If that is not selfish I don't know what is.
I wouldn't say it was unanimous hatred for it. This is what I said...
"They should remove it as an option to PUG...problem solved."
...which isn't hatred of your idea, just the understanding that although it might help - it's not really an end all sort of solution to the matter.
Cause you can take two folks and drop them in the same "perfect" build for the content, and well - odds are you're not going to get anywhere near the same results. Could drop me in any of the DPS League builds and...outside of the results being something to laugh about, one shouldn't expect much and definitely should not expect me to produce anything anywhere near what they do.
While certain gear requirements might reduce the number of undergeared and clueless players, it can't do anything about the clueless. The main issue arising because gear means nothing in STO - gear in STO is a participation reward rather than an achievement reward. You show up enough - you get a trophy...
So the only way one could really only find themselves with those that might have reasonable gear and a reasonable clue would be to do the reasonable thing to avoid the PUG queues for Elite like the plague...cause you're going to have all the entitled folks that believe they should get their trophies for attendance instead of having the least bit of an idea about what to do.
Can already see folks complaining all over the place..."What do you mean I have to do more than show up?"...it's kind of sickening.
I completely agree with you on the different results situation I primarily play a science captain and I currently have ships that run 4 - 10k DPS based on the ship. However my Romulan Science Destroyer running 4.2k DPS almost always finishes 1st place in SB24 so you can't use gear scoring skillsets or anything else to set ermine a players worth in STO it really comes down to experience and style of play
I've been noticing something in Cure Elite lately. I'll go in there and head left like i always do. But sometimes i get groups that have 1 player or even 2-3 players who struggle on the 2 BoP. Not the 3 Raptors, not the 3 Negvhar, not the roaming Negvhar+Raptor but the 2 BoP.
So is the solution to prevent that from happening for ME to not use the LFG tool? for ME to find a guild and run with guildies? for ME to run with people i trust?
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
If you see an Elite mode on a queued event after Delta Rising has launched, you should know that this is not for the faint of heart. These queues are designed to test our best and most powerful Captains in the game. Players have yearned for a challenge, and this is it. Enemies on Elite will hit significantly harder and be harder to kill, and at the same time, the missions themselves will take clockwork precision to complete.
You need to be level 60 before you even can attempt any Elite mode queued events. You will also want some top-end gear, and for space, the best possible ship. Mission objectives that were optional in Advanced mode are now required. This means failure to abide by those timers or other mission parameters will mean a premature end to your experience. In addition, if all the Captains are dead (or their ships destroyed) at the same time, the event automatically fails. If that wasnt enough challenge for you, there is now another, new, optional objective to complete for a bonus reward.
Success in an Elite mode event means you will earn for yourself more Marks, more Dilithium Ore, and an Elite Queue R&D Material Reward Package for the Research & Development system. This has an even greater chance of getting you those Very Rare R&D materials, and in addition to that, you will receive a Material reward for creating a Superior upgrade for the upgrade system we talked about in an earlier blog.
Many players have been asking for a challenge level beyond what we have given them in the past. The new Elite mode is a response to that. This is not a mode we expect all players to be able to eventually complete. This is a mode that will result in many failed attempts before a successful strategy is struck upon, and even then, that strategy should take practice and precision to pull off on a continual basis. Not every event is getting an Elite mode version for the launch of Delta Rising, but at least one for each Mark type is scheduled to be upgraded before then.
It starts off with that warning there, right? So right there at the start it eliminates the majority of folks that pug, no? They've set up all sorts of expectations for the people that will run the L60 Elites...so it's just a case of them setting some restrictions based on those expectations, no?
The next paragraph talks about clockwork precision...is clockwork precision something that comes to mind in the least when thinking about a pug? So two paragraphs in, and they've already eliminated pugs from running L60 Elites...but let's keep going.
The third paragraph tells us that the Advanced Optionals are no longer Optional - the Advanced by the way told us that the Normal Optionals were no longer Optional either. They've also introduced the all dead automatic failure...which tells us they see the possibility of everybody being dead as a possibility.
The fourth paragraph tells us why everybody is going to queue for L60 Elites whether they've met any of the previously mentioned prerequisites or not.
The final paragraph...wham, bam, oh damn...lays out that they do not expect all players to be able to complete it eventually - it's not some simple, "oh, I get it" thing - they go on to reinforce the prerequisites/expectations for the folks that will be attempting the L60 Elites again.
So once again...just where in any of that do you read anything that suggests in the slightest that it should be a choice to pug the L60 Elites? Where do you see anything in that which suggests if one had a choice to pug that the result would be anything other than dismal failure?
I'm not the one that's trying to determine who should and who shouldn't be able to run the L60 Elites...Cryptic's the one that laid out the expectations - not me. The question was raised by this thread of how Cryptic could attempt to enforce those expectations. They can't. An internal gear scoring mechanic could only enforce part of it. An accolade system could be gamed and gotten around. Cryptic can't enforce those expectations. Only players can enforce those expectations...but they can't do that if one can pug L60 Elites. So what's the logical course of action since Cryptic cannot enforce those expectations and player cannot enforce them in pugs?
It's as simple as that.
No need for you to make up stuff I never said. No need for you to get all defensive. No need for you to hop up on the soapbox for some Braveheart routine.
What does the blog say? How could that work out? Simple as that.
All that looks like though is a really long warning label. There isnt actually going to be a lock or a gate preventing someone from queueing up for those is there? it'll still be in the pve queues available for pugs? as far as pugs actually succeeding in them thats another story. But i think it's good if they definately do not budge on changing the difficulties on those.
EDIT: i do see in the part i snipped out how they cant regulate it so it sounds like no gates for the uber hard difficulties.
All that looks like though is a really long warning label. There isnt actually going to be a lock or a gate preventing someone from queueing up for those is there? it'll still be in the pve queues available for pugs? as far as pugs actually succeeding in them thats another story. But i think it's good if they definately do not budge on changing the difficulties on those.
EDIT: i do see in the part i snipped out how they cant regulate it so it sounds like no gates for the uber hard difficulties.
They could put the warning in flashing neon pink 60 pt comic sans and it won't matter one bit with the elite queue only materials.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
They could put the warning in flashing neon pink 60 pt comic sans and it won't matter one bit with the elite queue only materials.
exactly...it isnt stopping people now, it might not stop people in DR. Pretty much the same thing people are doing right now.
WoW LFR/LFG tool has an ilevel check but it's actually flawed. You can be a prot warrior in 440-450 gear and an LFR raid can have a requirement of 490. But you can get into that raid if you have a full set of epic cloth gear and healing trinkets. The system checks your bags and bank space, the system doesnt check if the gear is even for your spec or even your class. The worse thing is people arent doing it by accident, they are intentionally using that flaw to get into raids they arent supposed to be in.
To me you shouldn't need a gear score. Specially if your playing with friends. At the lower levels gear score shouldn't be an issue.
However in Elite, I wouldn't go in with out all purple top of the line gear. And with knowledge of your ship/crew is much needed. You want to be in Elite, you need to bring it.
Elite The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
If someone cannot reach the logical conclusion that elite content designed to be difficult for premade groups with top tier gear/skill/ships to complete cannot by definition be completed by a random PuG and indicates the desire to join those queues...well just one more reason to avoid those queues I guess.
These forums are going to erupt for the first month of DR. Gotta remember to put popcorn on the store list
All this is just confirming to me that it would be a mistake for me ever to queue for anything. Too many elitist SOBs who want everyone to be born knowing everything, so that no newbie ever messes up their perfect run.
I'll stick to running missions, thanks. At least I'm the only one calling me names when I make a mistake and die.
The only thing a Gear Score will do is alienate everyone who isn't the hardcore "Must have best shiny" people. I'm pretty causal, yet I can hold my own in most PvE situations. I amy not be nuking everything in sight, but I don't go down easy either. Unless its the dreaded Invisitorp. That still hurts.
Your gear isn't the only factor, as current Elite level content can be done with mk X white gear and maybe even T3 ships. Heck... some fleets actually do low tier STF runs for fun!
Gear Score means squat in STO, and just gives the elitest people a reason to discriminate against everyone else even more than they do now.
Hey! I like my shiny things! Especially my temporal stasis pistol.
im going to say this again.
this game needs scoreboards. scoreboards that reflect useful heals used, damage done, and kills made. same as you get in battlefield or planetside.
that way league tables can be applied to tell players if they are good or not.
3 runs in a row through the new elite content without meeting the cut-off point, and the player gets locked out.
same with the hard content.
this way nobody has to deal with ****ty gear scores and the griefing from that, players get real feedback on their abilities, and trolling is minimised.
Do you realize a scoreboard and lockout function would only serve to really anger the people who are not powerful like us? Don't get me wrong I'm not in the top 10 players but I hold my own quite easily in ker'rat and PVE is a joke atm but in no way do I lord that over the players who aren't as good as me. Why would you have something in a game that builds a wall between the strong and the weak all that does is cause a hostile game experience.
You know the few days I've been reading comments of everyone dreading the new content and harder queue events but I for one am very happy. I have been getting more and more nostalgic for the days of the old borg. When a tac cube could wipe a whole team with a FAW. When Donatra had her auto turn double burst thalaron pulse and where ISE actually took teamwork. I am one of the people who wants this to be in the game and frankly if it gets nerved I will be very disappointed.
You want people to be ready for the elite content?
Make them run the basic versions as many times as needed to lock in a near perfect completion.
If you can run an normal STF with no deaths and a completed optional at least 5 times you qualify for the Elite version.
That's basically how TBC dungeons were set up. I dont know if you played WoW TBC, but here is how it worked. In vanilla wow there was only 1 difficulty for all dungeons. In TBC/The Burning Crusade they introduced normal and heroic difficulties for every dungeon.
In order to get into heroic mode you first had to do normal mode XX amount of times to earn enough rep to buy a "key" that allowed you to zone into the heroic mode. It was possible to calculate out how much a full clear of a normal dungeon gave you rep wise, so it was easy to figure out how many runs total you needed to get to the right rep level to buy the heroic key.
BUT they took away that system, and i dont know why. I never tracked the dev blogs too much so i dont know the exact reason it was taken away. Maybe people didnt that heroic dungeons were gated behind rep? i dunno. But now they just have the LFG tool which looks at your gear and if you arent a high enough ilevel then you are not able to queue up for the heroic.
The difference was the first system relied on running the instance XX amount of times. During that time if you have a really unlucky string of loot drops you might be able to enter the heroic, but you might not have the gear needed to pull your share, meaning other people have to carry you a bit. Which wasnt really a big deal with WoW back then, still isnt now. The second system with the LFG/Ilevel meant that you *had* to have the gear to be able to get into the instance. Once you were in the dungeon then it was up to your skill and maybe even your actual gears itemization/stats.
Anyways all that being said, gating access behind first doing optionals X amount of times might not be a good idea. How about this...you get a mission where the primary objective is to do the instance on normal mode 5 times. Secondary optional objective is to do the optional for that instance just once. So you can do the normal mode 5 times and still move on, but if you also do the optional then you turn in the mission and get an additional reward or something.
The Undine Assault is the best example of why this idea of gear score is pointless drivel.
I have in just about every pug players who do not understand the mechanic of the map, and then ask what they are supposed to be doing (and them asking is rare actually) because none could be bothered to listen to Tuvoks introduction.
As long as players run around and actively ignore advice and mission instructions, no amount of gear scoring will bring you good pugs.
Its the same thing as infected space elite.
Don't have the dps to bring down the generator in time before nanite spheres arrive?
Solutions:
- Gravitiy well on the spheres to keep them away. What do you get, idiots plant grav wells on the generator and nearby spheres and pull in more spheres towards the generator.
- The 10 percent trick: Why listen to chat? Lets just all fire randomly at stuff.
- Target the fckn nanite spheres! Its 4 spheres, one per generator and then one sphere every few seconds and so.
5 players can easily dps down those spheres, but teams till today are incapable of reading chat and just listening to what they are told. Its TRIBBLE.
No amount of scoring systems will help with a playerbase that is to lazy.
If you can run an normal STF with no deaths and a completed optional at least 5 times you qualify for the Elite version.
But you don't. Hey, you might qualify for the Advanced version...but completing the optional 5 times without dying in Normal doesn't mean squat for the L60 Elites based on what the blog said. The OP isn't talking about our current Elites. Our current Elites are a joke. Hence the reason with Delta Rising they're getting a bump and are going to be called Advanced while an entirely new level of difficulty is being added. And being able to do Normal doesn't qualify one to do the L60 Elites based on what the blog says...
All this is just confirming to me that it would be a mistake for me ever to queue for anything. Too many elitist SOBs who want everyone to be born knowing everything, so that no newbie ever messes up their perfect run.
I'll stick to running missions, thanks. At least I'm the only one calling me names when I make a mistake and die.
I wanted to reply to one thing about this, but I keep going back to something that it says that's come up in a few threads.
Elitists..
Elite...
Elitists...
Elite...
Yes, Elitists means something different than Elite - but in talking about L60 Elite difficulty and the Elite people that will be running them, how much of the Elitist talk is actually folks being Elitist, eh? I've just found that to be kind of funny...like folks are using the word wrong in a humorous fashion.
But that does get into the wondering why some folks think other folks are being Elitist. I'm reply to this one, because at least the reason for calling them "elitist SOBs" is laid out. Course, I see absolutely no evidence to support them calling folks "elitist SOBs" based on the criteria laid out; which is why I posted the first bit in reply first.
Cause what I've seen folks say is basically the same thing that the blog says...not that somebody needs to know everything, but that folks do need to have some proficient knowledge and ability when it comes both to flying their ships and tackling the content. Nobody's suggesting that folks are just born knowing everything and being able to do everything...
They're just saying that some folks will have taken the time to reach that point in tackling the L60 Elites...and that, much like the blog says - the L60 Elites are not the training grounds for players to tackle the content. They should have gone through those training grounds with the Normal and the Advanced modes...and even with that...they should expect to meet failure with the L60 Elites until they've got it down.
I used to have various run ins with some of the DPS folks from time to time - cause basically I thought they were pretty damn arrogant. It was a combination of two things that helped put that relationship at ease and get it sailing on calmer waters.
One of the things was my simply accepting that I'm not as good as they are - that much of the antagonism I was feeling and the disdain that I was projecting on them as I did my white knight routine in defense of the average player was simply butthurt jealousy on my part. I didn't want to face just how bad I really was at the game. Sure, I joked about it all the time - but joking about it and accepting it weren't quite the same thing. Hell, I had the same issue with the premade crowd over in PvP. So through acceptance of where I actually am in the game - that opened up a door there to some more peaceful interactions.
The other thing was the initiative that the group was making as far as an outreach to the general playerbase. These guys weren't just sitting back and trying to laud their mad skills/knowledge over the rest of the players...these guys were inviting folks to come along and learn from them. They were sharing the info - not just builds, but actual strategies - not only what one might fly but also how one might fly it. The same with the PvP crowd, though obviously they'll have secrets as they fight each other - they do what they can to try to help folks out.
That's not to say there aren't elitist douches out there - they come right out and say it, they're the best - everybody else sucks - Cryptic should hire them cause they could fix all the problems...yadda yadda yadda.
But where has that been taking place in this thread?
Folks suggesting that folks know how to play before tackling the L60 Elites is not them being Elitist...lol, it's just them repeating what the blog says about the L60 Elites. Like somebody mentioned, almost the whole section reads like one giant warning. If people want to get upset with others for pointing that out...that's on them for getting upset, no? Maybe they need to take a look at themselves and stop pointing fingers at others talking about their egos...cause what's going on with their egos, that they think they can ignore all the warnings and just plod on through? There's just so much projection taking place...bunch of defensive nonsense.
There is also one critical flaw with this that I'm surprised you didn't think of. Quality gear is in no way a sign of a quality player. Situational awareness and understanding what to do in an encounter > gear.
Actually I did think about it i just wanted to suggest the idea rather than get into the specifics of it. I fully understand that a gear score does not tell a person skill, or that they have arranged their equipment into a suitable set up.
When i said i dont think the bar should be set too high i was mainly thinking about blocking anyone that turns up in a tier 4 ship or lower, or a tier 5 in all whites or greens etc. however good a player someone is, the limiting factor will still be their gear.
i appreciate that someone with a massive gear score might be the worst player in the world, but i'd rather team with the worst player in the world in great gear than the worst player in the world with awful gear.
we get a lot of new players in every month, and the first time someone hits 60 they could throw themselves into the elite not having a clue what to do. even iof that player learns quickly that process will repeat itself every month. i still see it today on the relatively easy elites we have now. its going to become annoying.
the gear score was never to suggest a perfect system, because no system is perfect but to try and limit the annoyance caused.
This again. I have been off line for nearly three months and this type of topic was going then and even from when I first started playing.
Now I have seen mention of it in WoW. Well Blizzard broke that add on by adding their own type of gear score. However they also added their own barrier to entering raids and heroic content, as mentioned. That was based on gear however they decided what was the minimum gear level needed to complete the content, this applied to PUG queues going as a premade group could bypass this restriction.
These sort of games rely on the largest market share to survive or turn a profit and those are the "casual" players and not the "hardcore" players who are a minority. Now who makes up those two groups differ between people as their really is no universal definition of what makes a player either casual or hardcore.
Blizzard realised this which is why grind gating was removed for this sort of content, as it was alienating the largest percentage of their player base and so their largest group of payers. Even though the key restriction meant only one person in the group needed it, so it was not as restrictive as a previous poster mentioned. However that still made it difficult to get into the content.
Now if Cryptic did introduce this sort of system, they would have to set the bar low enough not to annoy the "casual" player. This means that it really isn't worth doing in my eyes, because these topics would still pop up asking for the bar to be raised higher and higher each time, generally started by those "hardcore" players going "These newbies don't come up to my elitist view of what is acceptable". Now before anyone says what is wrong with wanting to be the best you can be, they need to learn the difference between elite and elitist.
Now if Cryptic did introduce this sort of system, they would have to set the bar low enough not to annoy the "casual" player. This means that it really isn't worth doing in my eyes, because these topics would still pop up asking for the bar to be raised higher and higher each time, generally started by those "hardcore" players going "These newbies don't come up to my elitist view of what is acceptable". Now before anyone says what is wrong with wanting to be the best you can be, they need to learn the difference between elite and elitist.
There are 5k folks that complain about 1k folks. There are 10k folks that complain about 5k folks. There are 20k folks that complain about 10k folks. It the 5k person complaining about the 1k person the same as the 20k person complaining about the 10k person? When one looks at the actual requirements for the content...which of them is making a complaint based on the content and which of them are making a complaint not based on the content? Some folks would like to lump them all in together - ignoring the content.
Whether or not Cryptic implements some sort of gating system for the L60 Elites, they've already set the bar high. It has not been set low to avoid annoying the "casual" player. Again, it starts off with the following warning...
"Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well."
We also get a dev reply on the matter with the following...
We are fully cognizant that there will be complaints that it's too hard. We have no intention of going back on Elite and making it easier to achieve. This is the brass ring for you all to aspire to.
If anything our worry is that one or two might be too easy compared to the rest. We'll take steps to remedy those situations asap.
So Cryptic has set that bar...set the expectations...and people pointing to that aren't being Elitists as some out there want to call them. No doubt like you said, there will be folks that come along later and add their own personal demands/expectations...they'll start complaining about folks that don't meet "their" requirements instead of the content's requirements. Voila, the Elitist SOBs that we all love to complain about in return.
The 5k guy doing the /facepalm at the 1k guy isn't doing a "personal" /facepalm...they're doing a content /facepalm. The 20k guy doing the /facepalm at the 10k guy on the other hand...
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
If you see an Elite mode on a queued event after Delta Rising has launched, you should know that this is not for the faint of heart. These queues are designed to test our best and most powerful Captains in the game. Players have yearned for a challenge, and this is it. Enemies on Elite will hit significantly harder and be harder to kill, and at the same time, the missions themselves will take clockwork precision to complete.
You need to be level 60 before you even can attempt any Elite mode queued events. You will also want some top-end gear, and for space, the best possible ship. Mission objectives that were optional in Advanced mode are now required. This means failure to abide by those timers or other mission parameters will mean a premature end to your experience. In addition, if all the Captains are “dead” (or their ships destroyed) at the same time, the event automatically fails. If that wasn’t enough challenge for you, there is now another, new, optional objective to complete for a bonus reward.
Success in an Elite mode event means you will earn for yourself more Marks, more Dilithium Ore, and an Elite Queue R&D Material Reward Package for the Research & Development system. This has an even greater chance of getting you those Very Rare R&D materials, and in addition to that, you will receive a Material reward for creating a Superior upgrade for the upgrade system we talked about in an earlier blog.
Many players have been asking for a challenge level beyond what we have given them in the past. The new Elite mode is a response to that. This is not a mode we expect all players to be able to eventually complete. This is a mode that will result in many failed attempts before a successful strategy is struck upon, and even then, that strategy should take practice and precision to pull off on a continual basis. Not every event is getting an Elite mode version for the launch of Delta Rising, but at least one for each Mark type is scheduled to be upgraded before then.
Why don't you just put the link in your sig., it will save you a lot of copy-paste aparently. :rolleyes:
It starts off with that warning there, right? So right there at the start it eliminates the majority of folks that pug, no? They've set up all sorts of expectations for the people that will run the L60 Elites...so it's just a case of them setting some restrictions based on those expectations, no?
Uuuuuu.....a WARNING!!! I'm absolutely terrified...no, no - I'm petrified! :eek:
The next paragraph talks about clockwork precision...is clockwork precision something that comes to mind in the least when thinking about a pug? So two paragraphs in, and they've already eliminated pugs from running L60 Elites...but let's keep going.
And once players learn the ins and outs of the encounters, when there are on-line walkthroughs and tutorials on how it's done and most importantly - when Cryptic releases the full batch of T6 ships that can spacebar everything, getting 5 random people that know what they're suposed to do and are properly geared is impossible, right? Because you say so.
The third paragraph tells us that the Advanced Optionals are no longer Optional - the Advanced by the way told us that the Normal Optionals were no longer Optional either. They've also introduced the all dead automatic failure...which tells us they see the possibility of everybody being dead as a possibility.
The fourth paragraph tells us why everybody is going to queue for L60 Elites whether they've met any of the previously mentioned prerequisites or not.
The final paragraph...wham, bam, oh damn...lays out that they do not expect all players to be able to complete it eventually - it's not some simple, "oh, I get it" thing - they go on to reinforce the prerequisites/expectations for the folks that will be attempting the L60 Elites again.
So once again...just where in any of that do you read anything that suggests in the slightest that it should be a choice to pug the L60 Elites? Where do you see anything in that which suggests if one had a choice to pug that the result would be anything other than dismal failure?
From the same place you read that it would be a guaranteed failure. :rolleyes:
I'm not the one that's trying to determine who should and who shouldn't be able to run the L60 Elites...Cryptic's the one that laid out the expectations - not me. The question was raised by this thread of how Cryptic could attempt to enforce those expectations. They can't. An internal gear scoring mechanic could only enforce part of it. An accolade system could be gamed and gotten around. Cryptic can't enforce those expectations. Only players can enforce those expectations...but they can't do that if one can pug L60 Elites. So what's the logical course of action since Cryptic cannot enforce those expectations and player cannot enforce them in pugs?
And as far as I'm aware, Cryptic is making them PUG-able. They already determined.
You have no argument whatsoever here, the players that want to enforce some expectations can do that in private queues just as they do even now in special channels with different, often opposite priorities. You're arguing against giving people a choice what to do here because you don't like or have severe issues understanding something.
No need for you to make up stuff I never said. No need for you to get all defensive. No need for you to hop up on the soapbox for some Braveheart routine.
What does the blog say? How could that work out? Simple as that.
No, it's even simpler. People have a choice what to do and noone is forced into anything. Every possible option is at everyone's disposal. If I and 4 more players similar to me are willing to risk it just for fun, we should be able to do it. It was our conscious choice to PUG, fully aware of the possible developments or outcomes of a PUG. Maybe we'll fail and end-up laughing that the Borg handed our posteriors to us so badly, but we had some fun. In a game. Created to waste time and have fun.
While you'll probably be on the other side standing on the soapbox with a grumpy cat face screaming "Hey now, you're having fun the wrong way! You're not suposed to PUG and like it!"
You're arguing against giving people a choice what to do here because you don't like or have severe issues understanding something.
Again, because I've got the feeling somebody could give you 9001 apples and you'd still sit there with a curious look while pointing at the pile of apples and ask, "orange?"...
While you'll probably be on the other side standing on the soapbox with a grumpy cat face screaming "Hey now, you're having fun the wrong way! You're not suposed to PUG and like it!"
Which you got from my saying all I do is PUG and that I wouldn't be playing the game if PUGs weren't an option?
Curious...
...well, I'm going to leave you to your pile of apples.
There's a guy complaining in another thread about forced socialization and that he just minimizes the chat window...
...everything points to avoiding Elite pug queues like the plague.
I'll be honest, I think a lot of the reason a large number of people either ignore or outright close chat is because of the people who get incredibly nasty with them just because they have no way of knowing what to do.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
scoreboards are used throughout gaming and are shown to be functional, especially those that work like the battlefield or planetside systems.
gear scores, dont work, are shown to be bull****, and are pointless due to being failures.
Scoreboards mainly show how functional you are in placing on the scoreboard.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Comments
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
Unless you're going to claim being clairvoyant next, your assumptions are baseless. It could happen or it couldn't happen. Depends on the situation. And that's not the point of what we're talking about here in case you haven't noticed.
*facepalm*
Again with the assumptions right? You know, just because I don't rant and nerd rage if something goes wrong like you probably do based on everything you said so far it doesn't mean I don't pull my weight in a PVE.
If it's risk and frustration for you, just don't do it. You have alternatives. Easy enough, right?
I'm still puzzled as to why to you keep insisting something should be removed for everyone just because you don't happen to like it, don't believe in it or whatever your personal issue is.
Mate, I'm sorry to inform you that you have no case here. You're just repeating the same old stuff an trying to be all philosophical in a very simple discussion.
You're not clairvoyant to know how every single PUG will work. And that's completely not the topic of discussion here. The point of discussion is you insisting on one less option for people just because you don't like it or don't think it'll be efficient to your standards. While you have an alternative for yourself. Talking about ego.
You would have made a point if they were forcing us to use PUGs only. As it stands, you have no point beyond - I don't like it, so noone should have access to it.
You're not making any sense at all.
And why do you care what I and other people do with our chars. and our free time? Are you suposed to be the arbiter of how STO should be played or something? Is someone forcing you to do a fail PUG? To risk waiting 30 minutes to an hour?
Let me make this as clear as possible:
shpoks' version: Players have options to choose from when playing elite queues. They can take a risk doing a PUG or they can try and set up a private group with people they know and trust.
virusdancer's version: Players don't have any other choice besides setting up privates because VD doesn't like them to do pugs.
See the problem here yet? No? Maybe?
You seem to have a comprehension problem mate. People are not droids. They can make choices for themselves. You want to limit that chocie in a big brother manner. You want to make the choice for them because you know best. If that is not selfish I don't know what is.
I completely agree with you on the different results situation I primarily play a science captain and I currently have ships that run 4 - 10k DPS based on the ship. However my Romulan Science Destroyer running 4.2k DPS almost always finishes 1st place in SB24 so you can't use gear scoring skillsets or anything else to set ermine a players worth in STO it really comes down to experience and style of play
So is the solution to prevent that from happening for ME to not use the LFG tool? for ME to find a guild and run with guildies? for ME to run with people i trust?
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7006643-queue-revamp
Here, I'll quote the Elite part again...
Elite The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
If you see an Elite mode on a queued event after Delta Rising has launched, you should know that this is not for the faint of heart. These queues are designed to test our best and most powerful Captains in the game. Players have yearned for a challenge, and this is it. Enemies on Elite will hit significantly harder and be harder to kill, and at the same time, the missions themselves will take clockwork precision to complete.
You need to be level 60 before you even can attempt any Elite mode queued events. You will also want some top-end gear, and for space, the best possible ship. Mission objectives that were optional in Advanced mode are now required. This means failure to abide by those timers or other mission parameters will mean a premature end to your experience. In addition, if all the Captains are dead (or their ships destroyed) at the same time, the event automatically fails. If that wasnt enough challenge for you, there is now another, new, optional objective to complete for a bonus reward.
Success in an Elite mode event means you will earn for yourself more Marks, more Dilithium Ore, and an Elite Queue R&D Material Reward Package for the Research & Development system. This has an even greater chance of getting you those Very Rare R&D materials, and in addition to that, you will receive a Material reward for creating a Superior upgrade for the upgrade system we talked about in an earlier blog.
Many players have been asking for a challenge level beyond what we have given them in the past. The new Elite mode is a response to that. This is not a mode we expect all players to be able to eventually complete. This is a mode that will result in many failed attempts before a successful strategy is struck upon, and even then, that strategy should take practice and precision to pull off on a continual basis. Not every event is getting an Elite mode version for the launch of Delta Rising, but at least one for each Mark type is scheduled to be upgraded before then.
It starts off with that warning there, right? So right there at the start it eliminates the majority of folks that pug, no? They've set up all sorts of expectations for the people that will run the L60 Elites...so it's just a case of them setting some restrictions based on those expectations, no?
The next paragraph talks about clockwork precision...is clockwork precision something that comes to mind in the least when thinking about a pug? So two paragraphs in, and they've already eliminated pugs from running L60 Elites...but let's keep going.
The third paragraph tells us that the Advanced Optionals are no longer Optional - the Advanced by the way told us that the Normal Optionals were no longer Optional either. They've also introduced the all dead automatic failure...which tells us they see the possibility of everybody being dead as a possibility.
The fourth paragraph tells us why everybody is going to queue for L60 Elites whether they've met any of the previously mentioned prerequisites or not.
The final paragraph...wham, bam, oh damn...lays out that they do not expect all players to be able to complete it eventually - it's not some simple, "oh, I get it" thing - they go on to reinforce the prerequisites/expectations for the folks that will be attempting the L60 Elites again.
So once again...just where in any of that do you read anything that suggests in the slightest that it should be a choice to pug the L60 Elites? Where do you see anything in that which suggests if one had a choice to pug that the result would be anything other than dismal failure?
I'm not the one that's trying to determine who should and who shouldn't be able to run the L60 Elites...Cryptic's the one that laid out the expectations - not me. The question was raised by this thread of how Cryptic could attempt to enforce those expectations. They can't. An internal gear scoring mechanic could only enforce part of it. An accolade system could be gamed and gotten around. Cryptic can't enforce those expectations. Only players can enforce those expectations...but they can't do that if one can pug L60 Elites. So what's the logical course of action since Cryptic cannot enforce those expectations and player cannot enforce them in pugs?
It's as simple as that.
No need for you to make up stuff I never said. No need for you to get all defensive. No need for you to hop up on the soapbox for some Braveheart routine.
What does the blog say? How could that work out? Simple as that.
snipped out the rest
All that looks like though is a really long warning label. There isnt actually going to be a lock or a gate preventing someone from queueing up for those is there? it'll still be in the pve queues available for pugs? as far as pugs actually succeeding in them thats another story. But i think it's good if they definately do not budge on changing the difficulties on those.
EDIT: i do see in the part i snipped out how they cant regulate it so it sounds like no gates for the uber hard difficulties.
They could put the warning in flashing neon pink 60 pt comic sans and it won't matter one bit with the elite queue only materials.
exactly...it isnt stopping people now, it might not stop people in DR. Pretty much the same thing people are doing right now.
WoW LFR/LFG tool has an ilevel check but it's actually flawed. You can be a prot warrior in 440-450 gear and an LFR raid can have a requirement of 490. But you can get into that raid if you have a full set of epic cloth gear and healing trinkets. The system checks your bags and bank space, the system doesnt check if the gear is even for your spec or even your class. The worse thing is people arent doing it by accident, they are intentionally using that flaw to get into raids they arent supposed to be in.
However in Elite, I wouldn't go in with out all purple top of the line gear. And with knowledge of your ship/crew is much needed. You want to be in Elite, you need to bring it.
Elite The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
If someone cannot reach the logical conclusion that elite content designed to be difficult for premade groups with top tier gear/skill/ships to complete cannot by definition be completed by a random PuG and indicates the desire to join those queues...well just one more reason to avoid those queues I guess.
These forums are going to erupt for the first month of DR. Gotta remember to put popcorn on the store list
I'll stick to running missions, thanks. At least I'm the only one calling me names when I make a mistake and die.
No ****ing gear scores! I'm so damn sick of games creating false gates with gear scores.
You want people to be ready for the elite content?
Make them run the basic versions as many times as needed to lock in a near perfect completion.
If you can run an normal STF with no deaths and a completed optional at least 5 times you qualify for the Elite version.
Hey! I like my shiny things! Especially my temporal stasis pistol.
Do you realize a scoreboard and lockout function would only serve to really anger the people who are not powerful like us? Don't get me wrong I'm not in the top 10 players but I hold my own quite easily in ker'rat and PVE is a joke atm but in no way do I lord that over the players who aren't as good as me. Why would you have something in a game that builds a wall between the strong and the weak all that does is cause a hostile game experience.
That's basically how TBC dungeons were set up. I dont know if you played WoW TBC, but here is how it worked. In vanilla wow there was only 1 difficulty for all dungeons. In TBC/The Burning Crusade they introduced normal and heroic difficulties for every dungeon.
In order to get into heroic mode you first had to do normal mode XX amount of times to earn enough rep to buy a "key" that allowed you to zone into the heroic mode. It was possible to calculate out how much a full clear of a normal dungeon gave you rep wise, so it was easy to figure out how many runs total you needed to get to the right rep level to buy the heroic key.
BUT they took away that system, and i dont know why. I never tracked the dev blogs too much so i dont know the exact reason it was taken away. Maybe people didnt that heroic dungeons were gated behind rep? i dunno. But now they just have the LFG tool which looks at your gear and if you arent a high enough ilevel then you are not able to queue up for the heroic.
The difference was the first system relied on running the instance XX amount of times. During that time if you have a really unlucky string of loot drops you might be able to enter the heroic, but you might not have the gear needed to pull your share, meaning other people have to carry you a bit. Which wasnt really a big deal with WoW back then, still isnt now. The second system with the LFG/Ilevel meant that you *had* to have the gear to be able to get into the instance. Once you were in the dungeon then it was up to your skill and maybe even your actual gears itemization/stats.
Anyways all that being said, gating access behind first doing optionals X amount of times might not be a good idea. How about this...you get a mission where the primary objective is to do the instance on normal mode 5 times. Secondary optional objective is to do the optional for that instance just once. So you can do the normal mode 5 times and still move on, but if you also do the optional then you turn in the mission and get an additional reward or something.
I have in just about every pug players who do not understand the mechanic of the map, and then ask what they are supposed to be doing (and them asking is rare actually) because none could be bothered to listen to Tuvoks introduction.
As long as players run around and actively ignore advice and mission instructions, no amount of gear scoring will bring you good pugs.
Its the same thing as infected space elite.
Don't have the dps to bring down the generator in time before nanite spheres arrive?
Solutions:
- Gravitiy well on the spheres to keep them away. What do you get, idiots plant grav wells on the generator and nearby spheres and pull in more spheres towards the generator.
- The 10 percent trick: Why listen to chat? Lets just all fire randomly at stuff.
- Target the fckn nanite spheres! Its 4 spheres, one per generator and then one sphere every few seconds and so.
5 players can easily dps down those spheres, but teams till today are incapable of reading chat and just listening to what they are told. Its TRIBBLE.
No amount of scoring systems will help with a playerbase that is to lazy.
But you don't. Hey, you might qualify for the Advanced version...but completing the optional 5 times without dying in Normal doesn't mean squat for the L60 Elites based on what the blog said. The OP isn't talking about our current Elites. Our current Elites are a joke. Hence the reason with Delta Rising they're getting a bump and are going to be called Advanced while an entirely new level of difficulty is being added. And being able to do Normal doesn't qualify one to do the L60 Elites based on what the blog says...
I wanted to reply to one thing about this, but I keep going back to something that it says that's come up in a few threads.
Elitists..
Elite...
Elitists...
Elite...
Yes, Elitists means something different than Elite - but in talking about L60 Elite difficulty and the Elite people that will be running them, how much of the Elitist talk is actually folks being Elitist, eh? I've just found that to be kind of funny...like folks are using the word wrong in a humorous fashion.
But that does get into the wondering why some folks think other folks are being Elitist. I'm reply to this one, because at least the reason for calling them "elitist SOBs" is laid out. Course, I see absolutely no evidence to support them calling folks "elitist SOBs" based on the criteria laid out; which is why I posted the first bit in reply first.
Cause what I've seen folks say is basically the same thing that the blog says...not that somebody needs to know everything, but that folks do need to have some proficient knowledge and ability when it comes both to flying their ships and tackling the content. Nobody's suggesting that folks are just born knowing everything and being able to do everything...
They're just saying that some folks will have taken the time to reach that point in tackling the L60 Elites...and that, much like the blog says - the L60 Elites are not the training grounds for players to tackle the content. They should have gone through those training grounds with the Normal and the Advanced modes...and even with that...they should expect to meet failure with the L60 Elites until they've got it down.
I used to have various run ins with some of the DPS folks from time to time - cause basically I thought they were pretty damn arrogant. It was a combination of two things that helped put that relationship at ease and get it sailing on calmer waters.
One of the things was my simply accepting that I'm not as good as they are - that much of the antagonism I was feeling and the disdain that I was projecting on them as I did my white knight routine in defense of the average player was simply butthurt jealousy on my part. I didn't want to face just how bad I really was at the game. Sure, I joked about it all the time - but joking about it and accepting it weren't quite the same thing. Hell, I had the same issue with the premade crowd over in PvP. So through acceptance of where I actually am in the game - that opened up a door there to some more peaceful interactions.
The other thing was the initiative that the group was making as far as an outreach to the general playerbase. These guys weren't just sitting back and trying to laud their mad skills/knowledge over the rest of the players...these guys were inviting folks to come along and learn from them. They were sharing the info - not just builds, but actual strategies - not only what one might fly but also how one might fly it. The same with the PvP crowd, though obviously they'll have secrets as they fight each other - they do what they can to try to help folks out.
That's not to say there aren't elitist douches out there - they come right out and say it, they're the best - everybody else sucks - Cryptic should hire them cause they could fix all the problems...yadda yadda yadda.
But where has that been taking place in this thread?
Folks suggesting that folks know how to play before tackling the L60 Elites is not them being Elitist...lol, it's just them repeating what the blog says about the L60 Elites. Like somebody mentioned, almost the whole section reads like one giant warning. If people want to get upset with others for pointing that out...that's on them for getting upset, no? Maybe they need to take a look at themselves and stop pointing fingers at others talking about their egos...cause what's going on with their egos, that they think they can ignore all the warnings and just plod on through? There's just so much projection taking place...bunch of defensive nonsense.
Actually I did think about it i just wanted to suggest the idea rather than get into the specifics of it. I fully understand that a gear score does not tell a person skill, or that they have arranged their equipment into a suitable set up.
When i said i dont think the bar should be set too high i was mainly thinking about blocking anyone that turns up in a tier 4 ship or lower, or a tier 5 in all whites or greens etc. however good a player someone is, the limiting factor will still be their gear.
i appreciate that someone with a massive gear score might be the worst player in the world, but i'd rather team with the worst player in the world in great gear than the worst player in the world with awful gear.
we get a lot of new players in every month, and the first time someone hits 60 they could throw themselves into the elite not having a clue what to do. even iof that player learns quickly that process will repeat itself every month. i still see it today on the relatively easy elites we have now. its going to become annoying.
the gear score was never to suggest a perfect system, because no system is perfect but to try and limit the annoyance caused.
Now I have seen mention of it in WoW. Well Blizzard broke that add on by adding their own type of gear score. However they also added their own barrier to entering raids and heroic content, as mentioned. That was based on gear however they decided what was the minimum gear level needed to complete the content, this applied to PUG queues going as a premade group could bypass this restriction.
These sort of games rely on the largest market share to survive or turn a profit and those are the "casual" players and not the "hardcore" players who are a minority. Now who makes up those two groups differ between people as their really is no universal definition of what makes a player either casual or hardcore.
Blizzard realised this which is why grind gating was removed for this sort of content, as it was alienating the largest percentage of their player base and so their largest group of payers. Even though the key restriction meant only one person in the group needed it, so it was not as restrictive as a previous poster mentioned. However that still made it difficult to get into the content.
Now if Cryptic did introduce this sort of system, they would have to set the bar low enough not to annoy the "casual" player. This means that it really isn't worth doing in my eyes, because these topics would still pop up asking for the bar to be raised higher and higher each time, generally started by those "hardcore" players going "These newbies don't come up to my elitist view of what is acceptable". Now before anyone says what is wrong with wanting to be the best you can be, they need to learn the difference between elite and elitist.
There are 5k folks that complain about 1k folks. There are 10k folks that complain about 5k folks. There are 20k folks that complain about 10k folks. It the 5k person complaining about the 1k person the same as the 20k person complaining about the 10k person? When one looks at the actual requirements for the content...which of them is making a complaint based on the content and which of them are making a complaint not based on the content? Some folks would like to lump them all in together - ignoring the content.
Whether or not Cryptic implements some sort of gating system for the L60 Elites, they've already set the bar high. It has not been set low to avoid annoying the "casual" player. Again, it starts off with the following warning...
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7006643-queue-revamp
"Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well."
We also get a dev reply on the matter with the following...
So Cryptic has set that bar...set the expectations...and people pointing to that aren't being Elitists as some out there want to call them. No doubt like you said, there will be folks that come along later and add their own personal demands/expectations...they'll start complaining about folks that don't meet "their" requirements instead of the content's requirements. Voila, the Elitist SOBs that we all love to complain about in return.
The 5k guy doing the /facepalm at the 1k guy isn't doing a "personal" /facepalm...they're doing a content /facepalm. The 20k guy doing the /facepalm at the 10k guy on the other hand...
Why don't you just put the link in your sig., it will save you a lot of copy-paste aparently. :rolleyes:
Uuuuuu.....a WARNING!!! I'm absolutely terrified...no, no - I'm petrified! :eek:
And once players learn the ins and outs of the encounters, when there are on-line walkthroughs and tutorials on how it's done and most importantly - when Cryptic releases the full batch of T6 ships that can spacebar everything, getting 5 random people that know what they're suposed to do and are properly geared is impossible, right? Because you say so.
And....?
From the same place you read that it would be a guaranteed failure. :rolleyes:
And as far as I'm aware, Cryptic is making them PUG-able. They already determined.
You have no argument whatsoever here, the players that want to enforce some expectations can do that in private queues just as they do even now in special channels with different, often opposite priorities. You're arguing against giving people a choice what to do here because you don't like or have severe issues understanding something.
No, it's even simpler. People have a choice what to do and noone is forced into anything. Every possible option is at everyone's disposal. If I and 4 more players similar to me are willing to risk it just for fun, we should be able to do it. It was our conscious choice to PUG, fully aware of the possible developments or outcomes of a PUG. Maybe we'll fail and end-up laughing that the Borg handed our posteriors to us so badly, but we had some fun. In a game. Created to waste time and have fun.
While you'll probably be on the other side standing on the soapbox with a grumpy cat face screaming "Hey now, you're having fun the wrong way! You're not suposed to PUG and like it!"
Again, because I've got the feeling somebody could give you 9001 apples and you'd still sit there with a curious look while pointing at the pile of apples and ask, "orange?"...
...I haven't said anything of the sort.
Which you got from my saying all I do is PUG and that I wouldn't be playing the game if PUGs weren't an option?
Curious...
...well, I'm going to leave you to your pile of apples.
I'll be honest, I think a lot of the reason a large number of people either ignore or outright close chat is because of the people who get incredibly nasty with them just because they have no way of knowing what to do.
Scoreboards mainly show how functional you are in placing on the scoreboard.