Timmy gets carried through Normal.
Timmy gets carried through Advanced.
Timmy trolls Elite.
anything's possible. in one universe i'm a clown made out of candy.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I know that people despise the very idea of a gear scoring system, but I really do agree that there needs to be some sort of barrier put in place for the new elites...at least. Once word gets out that the rewards are better in elite than any other game mode, people will be attempting to skip right over the first two difficulties and believing they will get carried just as they have before. This already happens now. I have known no greater frustration than queing up for one of the Borg Ground Elite STFs, and once things inevitably turn south, hearing a resounding "lol ive never done this before." Really? You couldn't even be arsed to try normal mode, once? Eh, but I'm getting close to ranting....
Anyway, at the very least, I think it should be required that you have completed both normal and advanced before you're allowed to set foot in elite. Maybe even make it necessary to do them a couple of times. I know, I know...it's possible people will still get carried through the easier difficulties, but it would be a start. And maybe, just maybe, some people might at least learn a few things on their way through....
"There will never be enough blood to wash away my need for vengeance! A single world...I could destroy a million worlds and it would not be enough! Your existence is an insult to the memory of my people! I will continue my fight, even if I must fight alone!"
Neverwinter has this system where gear is given scores. You can't enter certain content unless you hit that score. This basically stops people from entering an area or mission they would not have a hope of surviving.
With the introduction of new difficulty settings, with failure conditions and the worry that people will be turning up in mirandas and blowing the mission for everyone else (where as now you can carry those people through the event with ease) I think this might be a good idea.
I'm not suggesting the score has to be set too high as I'm sure lots of people don't want to feel like they are blocked from playing a mission just because they are not quite up to scratch but i think it would not only serve as a good indication as to how powerful you should be to enter a mission and it will certainly weed out the really under powered and under equipped players who are going to do nothing but TRIBBLE things up.
I don't think it would be needed on normal, and perhaps only a suggestion for advanced, but for elites which is designed for the best of the best, having an entry bar would be a good thing.
First this would only apply to public queues, and not private. Private should be open for people to try and play it however they like and is up to them to sort it out.
I like your proposal sir, but if they made a system that checks the crit lvl of players so there Always even in an STF or a REP it would be better don't you think ?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
Neverwinter has this system where gear is given scores. You can't enter certain content unless you hit that score. This basically stops people from entering an area or mission they would not have a hope of surviving.
With the introduction of new difficulty settings, with failure conditions and the worry that people will be turning up in mirandas and blowing the mission for everyone else (where as now you can carry those people through the event with ease) I think this might be a good idea.
I'm not suggesting the score has to be set too high as I'm sure lots of people don't want to feel like they are blocked from playing a mission just because they are not quite up to scratch but i think it would not only serve as a good indication as to how powerful you should be to enter a mission and it will certainly weed out the really under powered and under equipped players who are going to do nothing but TRIBBLE things up.
I don't think it would be needed on normal, and perhaps only a suggestion for advanced, but for elites which is designed for the best of the best, having an entry bar would be a good thing.
First this would only apply to public queues, and not private. Private should be open for people to try and play it however they like and is up to them to sort it out.
As much as I'd like there to be gear requirements...
I suppose if they put in two systems...one which which detected what kind of ship you're in and one that scanned gear.
Would need both or a even more complicated system...
At least with gear scoring you know people have played the game for a while...without it you can very well get undergeared newbs who don't know how to play or even have good gear to help carry them.
It's common place for people who have no idea what they're doing to queue for elites just because they can...which will happen with the new system and will cause failures.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I found most of my in game friends from STF pugs. And we did many STFs with them afterwards. This was back when space and ground were one mission.
We sent friend requests because of our abilities in the STF. To limit pugs is to limit new friends and continued elite missions.
Folks can make friends in Normal. Some might even make friends in Advanced. Folks can make friends in the various social zones looking for folks to run Advanced or Elite. Folks can make friends on the forums through expressing an interest of finding folks to do things.
Removing Elite PUGs doesn't prevent making friends.
First of all... in STO there are too many variables for this to work...
Second: Gearscore in any form is completely useless, it justs says something about your frakkin' gear and absolutely NOTHING about your skill!
All it will do is make the already hostile Elitist even more hostile and give them a justification for being arrogant and snobbish about it, people will be left behind, even now people don't "teach" new players that stuff and this would only get worse.
If you don't want certain people joining your elite games, then it's very simple: Make your game a private game.
However, to do private games, you'll have to have friends to play with. Yes, you will have to use your personality and not rely on the game to make your friends for you :O
It's a waste of time and resources to try to implement an Accolade check.
It's basically a waste of time and resources to try to implement a Gear check.
All one can do is avoid the queues like the plague...
...make friends, make acquaintances, and run with them.
Otherwise it's going to be like playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in the cylinder while hoping for the empty chamber.
Agreed.
The entire concepts are at odds. You have content expressly designed to require top tier ships, with top tier gear, with top tier builds, with top tier pilots, utilizing top tier teamwork. At the other end you have a mechanism for creating teams that has absolutely no proper way to gauge any of those qualities pulling from the general public creating a team that has never played together designed for convince. If the PvP queues/community have taught us nothing else I would hope it has at least shown the massive disparity between a team of 5 designed to work together VS a PuG.
But it doesn't even matter, this content will either be a joke difficulty wise if it is even capable of being completed with a PuG, or so stupid difficult only the top .1% will be able to participate. Additionally nothing to my knowledge is being done to address the corner cases of balance where specific abilities, consoles, and ships are stupidly strong compared to other offerings. Nor the binary and RNG nature of STO combat.
Unless you are going to roll premade for this why bother? And in that case why bother even allowing it to be in the public queues?
First of all... in STO there are too many variables for this to work...
Second: Gearscore in any form is completely useless, it justs says something about your frakkin' gear and absolutely NOTHING about your skill!
All it will do is make the already hostile Elitist even more hostile and give them a justification for being arrogant and snobbish about it, people will be left behind, even now people don't "teach" new players that stuff and this would only get worse.
At least you know people have gear...what's worse than someone with decent gear and no skill? Someone with no gear and no skill.
I've given up on trying to teach...people just outright ignore group chat these days.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
If you see an Elite mode on a queued event after Delta Rising has launched, you should know that this is not for the faint of heart. These queues are designed to test our best and most powerful Captains in the game. Players have yearned for a challenge, and this is it. Enemies on Elite will hit significantly harder and be harder to kill, and at the same time, the missions themselves will take clockwork precision to complete.
You need to be level 60 before you even can attempt any Elite mode queued events. You will also want some top-end gear, and for space, the best possible ship. Mission objectives that were optional in Advanced mode are now required. This means failure to abide by those timers or other mission parameters will mean a premature end to your experience. In addition, if all the Captains are dead (or their ships destroyed) at the same time, the event automatically fails. If that wasnt enough challenge for you, there is now another, new, optional objective to complete for a bonus reward.
Success in an Elite mode event means you will earn for yourself more Marks, more Dilithium Ore, and an Elite Queue R&D Material Reward Package for the Research & Development system. This has an even greater chance of getting you those Very Rare R&D materials, and in addition to that, you will receive a Material reward for creating a Superior upgrade for the upgrade system we talked about in an earlier blog.
Many players have been asking for a challenge level beyond what we have given them in the past. The new Elite mode is a response to that. This is not a mode we expect all players to be able to eventually complete. This is a mode that will result in many failed attempts before a successful strategy is struck upon, and even then, that strategy should take practice and precision to pull off on a continual basis. Not every event is getting an Elite mode version for the launch of Delta Rising, but at least one for each Mark type is scheduled to be upgraded before then.
A realist would read that...and...avoid pug queues like the plague.
The big problem is that there's no reliable way to gauge skill.
That guy with decent gear and no skill can still tank your objective and then blame everyone else because he's used to being carried and thinks he's a good player. Gear Score doesn't solve that, all it does is turns that guy into a by-the-numbers Elitest and makes the whole experience even more unpleasant.
Here's the thing about the earlier idea to create a new accolade to unlock the Elite Queue. Depending on what they make that accolade, it may well be the best way to gauge skill. They could make an accolade out of DPS/healing...etc... Or they could make it out of achieving the optional objective or fulfilling a certain role in the fight.
Suppose the Infected Elite could only be unlocked if you achieved an accolade for having used all three consoles in the Normal or Advanced mode. That would indicate someone actually knows how to coordinate with a group and has managed to do so 3 times.
Same with Hive, another ground mission requiring coordination.
It's not a perfect idea. There are undoubtedly ways to cheat it. But if they based the unlocking of an Elite mission on strategy and not on gear or damage, we'd see a definite change to the quality of pickup groups.
This is, admittedly, unlikely, but it is an option to float in front of the devs that would go farther than "Hey, here's a number you can get by knowing purple is better than blue and gold is better than purple."
The big problem is that there's no reliable way to gauge skill.
That guy with decent gear and no skill can still tank your objective and then blame everyone else because he's used to being carried and thinks he's a good player. Gear Score doesn't solve that, all it does is turns that guy into a by-the-numbers Elitest and makes the whole experience even more unpleasant.
Here's the thing about the earlier idea to create a new accolade to unlock the Elite Queue. Depending on what they make that accolade, it may well be the best way to gauge skill. They could make an accolade out of DPS/healing...etc... Or they could make it out of achieving the optional objective or fulfilling a certain role in the fight.
Suppose the Infected Elite could only be unlocked if you achieved an accolade for having used all three consoles in the Normal or Advanced mode. That would indicate someone actually knows how to coordinate with a group and has managed to do so 3 times.
Same with Hive, another ground mission requiring coordination.
It's not a perfect idea. There are undoubtedly ways to cheat it. But if they based the unlocking of an Elite mission on strategy and not on gear or damage, we'd see a definite change to the quality of pickup groups.
This is, admittedly, unlikely, but it is an option to float in front of the devs that would go farther than "Hey, here's a number you can get by knowing purple is better than blue and gold is better than purple."
Problem is that wont exactly be a great judge either...because like your first example said person could of just earned said accolade because she/he was carried by a good group.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
A realist would read that...and...avoid pug queues like the plague.
See....I really don't share the same level of resentment towards PUGs that some people here aparently do. And I do PUGs most of the time in this game. And what you're saying here is comming off as extremely elitist.
Problem is that wont exactly be a great judge either...because like your first example said person could of just earned said accolade because she/he was carried by a good group.
Two things:
1) I said in there it wasn't a perfect idea. But if you pay attention, they would have to ACTUALLY hit the console themselves. They'd at least have to try and fulfill each role of the mission.
It wouldn't get everyone, but it would get some of them. Unlike a gear score that they can just buy their way past.
2) How are we defining carried? The guy with low DPS or the guy who stands there and just shoots at whatever he sees and has no clue how to do the mission? Because personally I'd rather get rid of the latter, on a lot of these missions he messes up the optional or ragequits when we need a full team to actually complete the last part.
See....I really don't share the same level of resentment towards PUGs that some people here aparently do. And I do PUGs most of the time in this game. And what you're saying here is comming off as extremely elitist.
But you can ask almost anybody...that there's nothing elitist about me. I suck at PvP. I suck at PvE. Ask the PvP folks...ask the DPS folks...they can all point and laugh at me. I did a thread advocating fun builds while still doing at least average DPS...folks doing 4-9k DPS...not the folks doing 20-30k+ DPS. I don't run with any premade PVP groups - I'd only be there if they wanted to handicap themselves in some fashion.
Doesn't change that while running current PUGs that the majority of folks one comes across are in the 1-2k DPS range and flying around chasing butterflies. Doesn't change that I can take a poorly geared Eng Healer into a pug and have to /facepalm that my guy with barely 5k DPS was the top DPS guy from the group.
If I'm being extremely elitist in saying that I'm average on my best day and I don't have many best days...if I'm being extremely elitist in saying that I'd be lucky to be considered mediocre...then I just don't know what to say.
I play to have fun...it's not fun running current Elites with folks that probably couldn't do Normal. Hell, the speed run folks - the DPS folks - they don't want to run Elites with me either. But you can drop five of me in an Elite and get the optional done with time to spare or with ease. Those folks doing 1-2k DPS that are chasing butterflies? 5 of them...you're looking at a waste of time. Maybe one of the DPS folks can carry four folks like that - much like they could solo it, but I'm not that good - for me, it just turns into a major waste of time. When I've got a new toon, an alt - I don't hop straight into Elites with him regardless of how many times I may have run them...cause I can be honest with myself and I'm going to hit up some Normals to see where the toon actually stands before moving on.
We're going to have Normal, Advanced, and Elite...my sorry TRIBBLE isn't going to be touching Elite with the guy I've got if it actually turns out to be anything like they're saying...cause I know my build sucks for that and I'm a crappy player. I don't feel entitled to the better rewards - I don't feel like I'm being punished for not getting them if I'm not up to the task...so I won't do that. But one can easily look around at pugs right now to see that the majority of the players have no issue with joining queues they aren't ready for...
...and so yeah, I can easily see recommending that folks avoid Elite pug queues like the plague.
Comments
anything's possible. in one universe i'm a clown made out of candy.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Anyway, at the very least, I think it should be required that you have completed both normal and advanced before you're allowed to set foot in elite. Maybe even make it necessary to do them a couple of times. I know, I know...it's possible people will still get carried through the easier difficulties, but it would be a start. And maybe, just maybe, some people might at least learn a few things on their way through....
1) I'm sorry my other opinions on totally different matters did not match your personal opinion of what i should say.
2) I'm not actually sorry.
It's not just DPS/Heals...and the DPS/Heals could be gamed.
The only fix to avoid the obvious fail that will be coming with the new levels and pugs is to avoid pugs.
Make friends...find folks to run with...etc, etc, etc.
And people don't carry each other already?
And...thank you for supporting my premise that it was a bad idea.
It's not gonna make much of a difference considering people get carried already..
I like your proposal sir, but if they made a system that checks the crit lvl of players so there Always even in an STF or a REP it would be better don't you think ?
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
It's a waste of time and resources to try to implement an Accolade check.
It's basically a waste of time and resources to try to implement a Gear check.
All one can do is avoid the queues like the plague...
...make friends, make acquaintances, and run with them.
Otherwise it's going to be like playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in the cylinder while hoping for the empty chamber.
As much as I'd like there to be gear requirements...
I suppose if they put in two systems...one which which detected what kind of ship you're in and one that scanned gear.
Would need both or a even more complicated system...
At least with gear scoring you know people have played the game for a while...without it you can very well get undergeared newbs who don't know how to play or even have good gear to help carry them.
It's common place for people who have no idea what they're doing to queue for elites just because they can...which will happen with the new system and will cause failures.
I found most of my in game friends from STF pugs. And we did many STFs with them afterwards. This was back when space and ground were one mission.
We sent friend requests because of our abilities in the STF. To limit pugs is to limit new friends and continued elite missions.
Folks can make friends in Normal. Some might even make friends in Advanced. Folks can make friends in the various social zones looking for folks to run Advanced or Elite. Folks can make friends on the forums through expressing an interest of finding folks to do things.
Removing Elite PUGs doesn't prevent making friends.
Second: Gearscore in any form is completely useless, it justs says something about your frakkin' gear and absolutely NOTHING about your skill!
All it will do is make the already hostile Elitist even more hostile and give them a justification for being arrogant and snobbish about it, people will be left behind, even now people don't "teach" new players that stuff and this would only get worse.
Removing elite pugs is hands down the single worst idea I've ever read on this forum, and that by itself should tell a lot.
However, to do private games, you'll have to have friends to play with. Yes, you will have to use your personality and not rely on the game to make your friends for you :O
Oh noes! The horror!
TRIBBLE?
TRIBBLE?
Sadomasochist?
Nope, just realist. And someone who doesn't lose any nerves over a computer game .
Agreed.
The entire concepts are at odds. You have content expressly designed to require top tier ships, with top tier gear, with top tier builds, with top tier pilots, utilizing top tier teamwork. At the other end you have a mechanism for creating teams that has absolutely no proper way to gauge any of those qualities pulling from the general public creating a team that has never played together designed for convince. If the PvP queues/community have taught us nothing else I would hope it has at least shown the massive disparity between a team of 5 designed to work together VS a PuG.
But it doesn't even matter, this content will either be a joke difficulty wise if it is even capable of being completed with a PuG, or so stupid difficult only the top .1% will be able to participate. Additionally nothing to my knowledge is being done to address the corner cases of balance where specific abilities, consoles, and ships are stupidly strong compared to other offerings. Nor the binary and RNG nature of STO combat.
Unless you are going to roll premade for this why bother? And in that case why bother even allowing it to be in the public queues?
At least you know people have gear...what's worse than someone with decent gear and no skill? Someone with no gear and no skill.
I've given up on trying to teach...people just outright ignore group chat these days.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7006643-queue-revamp
Elite The Best of the Best
Warning: The new Elite mode is far and away the hardest content we have put into Star Trek Online. We expect you to not just be outfitted in great gear, but have become proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events as well. You should be a master of your character and your ship, as well as knowing what your teammates are capable of doing. You should also know what to expect from the enemy you will be fighting as well.
If you see an Elite mode on a queued event after Delta Rising has launched, you should know that this is not for the faint of heart. These queues are designed to test our best and most powerful Captains in the game. Players have yearned for a challenge, and this is it. Enemies on Elite will hit significantly harder and be harder to kill, and at the same time, the missions themselves will take clockwork precision to complete.
You need to be level 60 before you even can attempt any Elite mode queued events. You will also want some top-end gear, and for space, the best possible ship. Mission objectives that were optional in Advanced mode are now required. This means failure to abide by those timers or other mission parameters will mean a premature end to your experience. In addition, if all the Captains are dead (or their ships destroyed) at the same time, the event automatically fails. If that wasnt enough challenge for you, there is now another, new, optional objective to complete for a bonus reward.
Success in an Elite mode event means you will earn for yourself more Marks, more Dilithium Ore, and an Elite Queue R&D Material Reward Package for the Research & Development system. This has an even greater chance of getting you those Very Rare R&D materials, and in addition to that, you will receive a Material reward for creating a Superior upgrade for the upgrade system we talked about in an earlier blog.
Many players have been asking for a challenge level beyond what we have given them in the past. The new Elite mode is a response to that. This is not a mode we expect all players to be able to eventually complete. This is a mode that will result in many failed attempts before a successful strategy is struck upon, and even then, that strategy should take practice and precision to pull off on a continual basis. Not every event is getting an Elite mode version for the launch of Delta Rising, but at least one for each Mark type is scheduled to be upgraded before then.
A realist would read that...and...avoid pug queues like the plague.
There's a guy complaining in another thread about forced socialization and that he just minimizes the chat window...
...everything points to avoiding Elite pug queues like the plague.
I'll never understand people like that at all...if you don't want to play with other people then don't play a game built on multiplayer?
That guy with decent gear and no skill can still tank your objective and then blame everyone else because he's used to being carried and thinks he's a good player. Gear Score doesn't solve that, all it does is turns that guy into a by-the-numbers Elitest and makes the whole experience even more unpleasant.
Here's the thing about the earlier idea to create a new accolade to unlock the Elite Queue. Depending on what they make that accolade, it may well be the best way to gauge skill. They could make an accolade out of DPS/healing...etc... Or they could make it out of achieving the optional objective or fulfilling a certain role in the fight.
Suppose the Infected Elite could only be unlocked if you achieved an accolade for having used all three consoles in the Normal or Advanced mode. That would indicate someone actually knows how to coordinate with a group and has managed to do so 3 times.
Same with Hive, another ground mission requiring coordination.
It's not a perfect idea. There are undoubtedly ways to cheat it. But if they based the unlocking of an Elite mission on strategy and not on gear or damage, we'd see a definite change to the quality of pickup groups.
This is, admittedly, unlikely, but it is an option to float in front of the devs that would go farther than "Hey, here's a number you can get by knowing purple is better than blue and gold is better than purple."
Problem is that wont exactly be a great judge either...because like your first example said person could of just earned said accolade because she/he was carried by a good group.
See....I really don't share the same level of resentment towards PUGs that some people here aparently do. And I do PUGs most of the time in this game. And what you're saying here is comming off as extremely elitist.
Two things:
1) I said in there it wasn't a perfect idea. But if you pay attention, they would have to ACTUALLY hit the console themselves. They'd at least have to try and fulfill each role of the mission.
It wouldn't get everyone, but it would get some of them. Unlike a gear score that they can just buy their way past.
2) How are we defining carried? The guy with low DPS or the guy who stands there and just shoots at whatever he sees and has no clue how to do the mission? Because personally I'd rather get rid of the latter, on a lot of these missions he messes up the optional or ragequits when we need a full team to actually complete the last part.
as opposed to Tommy dumping dollars into Zen and dilithium to buy all the shiny fleet gear to troll elite
But you can ask almost anybody...that there's nothing elitist about me. I suck at PvP. I suck at PvE. Ask the PvP folks...ask the DPS folks...they can all point and laugh at me. I did a thread advocating fun builds while still doing at least average DPS...folks doing 4-9k DPS...not the folks doing 20-30k+ DPS. I don't run with any premade PVP groups - I'd only be there if they wanted to handicap themselves in some fashion.
Doesn't change that while running current PUGs that the majority of folks one comes across are in the 1-2k DPS range and flying around chasing butterflies. Doesn't change that I can take a poorly geared Eng Healer into a pug and have to /facepalm that my guy with barely 5k DPS was the top DPS guy from the group.
If I'm being extremely elitist in saying that I'm average on my best day and I don't have many best days...if I'm being extremely elitist in saying that I'd be lucky to be considered mediocre...then I just don't know what to say.
I play to have fun...it's not fun running current Elites with folks that probably couldn't do Normal. Hell, the speed run folks - the DPS folks - they don't want to run Elites with me either. But you can drop five of me in an Elite and get the optional done with time to spare or with ease. Those folks doing 1-2k DPS that are chasing butterflies? 5 of them...you're looking at a waste of time. Maybe one of the DPS folks can carry four folks like that - much like they could solo it, but I'm not that good - for me, it just turns into a major waste of time. When I've got a new toon, an alt - I don't hop straight into Elites with him regardless of how many times I may have run them...cause I can be honest with myself and I'm going to hit up some Normals to see where the toon actually stands before moving on.
We're going to have Normal, Advanced, and Elite...my sorry TRIBBLE isn't going to be touching Elite with the guy I've got if it actually turns out to be anything like they're saying...cause I know my build sucks for that and I'm a crappy player. I don't feel entitled to the better rewards - I don't feel like I'm being punished for not getting them if I'm not up to the task...so I won't do that. But one can easily look around at pugs right now to see that the majority of the players have no issue with joining queues they aren't ready for...
...and so yeah, I can easily see recommending that folks avoid Elite pug queues like the plague.