It was something raised in one of the threads based on what Geko had said, and whether what he was saying was being taken out of context.
He said that the increase from Mk XII to Mk XIII was twice as good as Mk XI to Mk XII...and that from Mk XIII to Mk XIV was twice as good as well. Heavily paraphrased there, I'd need to hunt down the thread. But the question that was raised was the following - was he saying...
(A)
With Mk 0 - Mk XII, you have an increase of X.
With Mk XII -> Mk XIII, you haven an increase of 2 * X.
With Mk XIII -> Mk XIV, you have an increase of 4 * X.
(B)
With Mk 0 - Mk XII, you have an increase of X.
With Mk XII -> Mk XIII, you haven an increase of 2 * X.
With Mk XIII -> Mk XIV, you have an increase of 2 * X.
Where it was more a case he was saying the increase from Mk XII -> Mk XIV was 4 * X rather than Mk XIII -> Mk XIV was 4 * X.
And I got sidetracked and can't remember what thread that discussion was in to save my life...meh. I should go look - it would be one of the recent podcast threads...hrmm.
Unfortunately, as far as I've seen, ship gear doesn't get this bump up. Taking deflectors as an example, going up each mark gives you .6 more skill. If this only applies to weapons, then we have more of the same DPS centric mentality.
So for some deflector that doesn't have lets say power insulators innately but has the [Ins] mod tied to it.
MK XII = 8.8
MK XIII = 9.6
MK XIV = 10
Frankly, it follows a very very linear boost in any stat.
Ah! I didn't know that. So, when, let's say, you are getting to gold, you own't have to wait? That's nice. But keep in mind, that's after you already have you mk XIV equivalents. Tara, I believe, was talking about to cost for getting to mk XIV
That's right
I mean I'm not saying these changes are bad, obviously they're nice, but it isn't a production cost decrease in terms of paying for the upgrades in the first place.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
I mean I'm not saying these changes are bad, obviously they're nice, but it isn't a production cost decrease in terms of paying for the upgrades in the first place.
right right. I'm totally with you on that. But since I don't have access to Tribble I guess my opinion doesn't mean s***. But yeah. I think their goal for the most recent patch to the upgrade system was to encourage achieving gold quality items faster which isn't the ultimate fix to the issues at hand but an incentive solution.
You have said several times in this thread that you feel the current pricing is reasonable. I'm not entirely sure I understand your assertion. Are you saying
(1) The cost to upgrade from Mk XII to Mk XIV should be equal to the cost of buying a brand new Mk XIV item.
or
(2) The cost to upgrade from Mk XII to Mk XIV should be equal to the difference in cost between a brand new Mk XIV item and a brand new Mk XII item.
What do you think are reasonable prices for brand new very rare Mk XII and Mk XIV weapons?
Currently, it costs 64000 TP to upgrade a very rare Mk XII weapon to Mk XIII and 128000 TP to upgrade a very rare Mk XIII weapon to Mk XIV. Superior tech upgrades give 12800 TP and cost 1075 dilithium each. Assuming you are using only superior tech upgrades, the total dilithium cost to upgrade a very rare weapon from Mk XII to Mk XIV is
A new very rare Mk XII weapon from the reputation store costs 22500 dilithium (assuming no discounts from the fleet dilithium mine). Do you think that a new very rare Mk XIV weapon should cost
From my perspective, the cost to upgrade from Mk XII to Mk XIV should reflect the difference in stats between Mk XIV and Mk XII. As far as I know, stats increase approximately linearly with mark, so the cost to upgrade from Mk XII to Mk XIV should be about 1/6 the cost of a brand new Mk XII item. In particular, the cost to upgrade a very rare Mk XII weapon to Mk XIV should be approximately
(22500 dilithium)*(2/12) = 3750 dilithium.
Mightybobcnc took the time and effort to create this table:
As you can see, upgrade costs increase approximately exponentially with mark. Do you agree with Cryptic's exponential pricing scheme?
My assertion is, off the cuff, I would expect to pay around 40,000 to 50,000 Dilithium for a brand new Ultra Rare Mk XIV weapon. Since the cost to upgrade is significantly less than that, I consider it a deal.
As for your linear versus exponential point, two things are very important - first, the stat gains from Mk XII to Mk XIV are actually bigger than the previous stat gains, so, if you accept (as you seem to) that it's reasonable to equate (at some level) combat effectiveness and cost, the upgrades should certainly be more expensive than your 3750 figure.
Much more importantly, however, is the fact that linear improvements to combat 'stats' typically provide exponential improvements to combat "effectiveness", and as such, if we are pricing based on effectiveness, and not stats, an exponential (or geometric) cost formula is more likely to be appropriate.
What I mean by this distinction between stats and "effectiveness" is this - by improving your firepower, you decrease the time it takes to kill your enemies, which in turn reduces the incoming damage, which in turn makes your heals relatively more effective, which means you disengage less often to heal up, which further improves the rate at which you deliver damage, which further reduces the amount of damage you take, and so on. Thus, if we link (as I think we should) prices to the EFFECTIVENESS of the items, and not merely their stats, Cryptic's scaling system for costs makes more sense.
Exactly. That is a very good point and question. If I understand correctly, the only justification for the current prices is in-game economy and Cryptic's profit margin in that they need to pay off what has gone into Delta rising.
What more justification do you need? Those are both pretty huge reasons why the system is the way it is. Cryptic needs to make money to justify doing big expansions to the game - it's the "only" justification in the same sense that the "only" justification for breathing is that you need oxygen. I mean, yeah - that's "only" one reason, but it's a pretty good one. Same with jumpstarting the in game economy - you might not like the costs personally, but if it works like I think it's intended to, the effects on how people play the game will probably be good for the health of the game overall, especially in the long term.
Besides, as I noted in my other post, I think the costs also make sense on an "effectiveness" scale as well, especially given the added bump in stats above the normal Mk upgrades for Mk XII and Mk XIV.
The counter question I would ask is what is the justification for reducing the costs, besides the benefit to you as an individual? How does you getting even cheaper Mk XIV improve the health of the game as a whole?
What more justification do you need? Those are both pretty huge reasons why the system is the way it is. Cryptic needs to make money to justify doing big expansions to the game - it's the "only" justification in the same sense that the "only" justification for breathing is that you need oxygen. I mean, yeah - that's "only" one reason, but it's a pretty good one. Same with jumpstarting the in game economy - you might not like the costs personally, but if it works like I think it's intended to, the effects on how people play the game will probably be good for the health of the game overall, especially in the long term.
Besides, as I noted in my other post, I think the costs also make sense on an "effectiveness" scale as well, especially given the added bump in stats above the normal Mk upgrades for Mk XII and Mk XIV.
The counter question I would ask is what is the justification for reducing the costs, besides the benefit to you as an individual? How does you getting even cheaper Mk XIV improve the health of the game as a whole?
It's the sheer amount of dilithium involved and the time-gating on the crafting system as a whole. If you need to get that much it makes it neigh on impossible for newer players to catch-up with veteran players without spending an obscene amount on the game, which frankly isn't worth it, anyone with a remote adeptness with maths will work that out.
Now here's a few corkers:
We want to make new Level 50's competitive with old Level 50's....
We probably will raise the level cap again...
*Various things about the spec differences being greater than before...
Now working from those things that devs have said, what happens?
Basically new player spends a year at least grinding to the top, which if they have any clue what a rip-off it would be to pay to do it they will most likely need at least a year. The new queues aren't do-able by them as they don't have gear.
This then means they have to run in lesser queues for lesser rewards than the veterans, which means veterans need less successful missions than the newer people. Resource acquiring gap becomes wider.
This then causes newer players to be slow catching up while veterans go through anything quicker, and then when a new level cap hits the new player is lucky to have caught up and as you add more levels the issue becomes more and more exaggerated.
Essentially it isn't sustainable, I mean they removed the clusters because it lost them players and they're not even an issue. If this stays the way it is I can't see people sticking around long simply because of the drag it would be to achieve anything.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
What more justification do you need? Those are both pretty huge reasons why the system is the way it is. Cryptic needs to make money to justify doing big expansions to the game - it's the "only" justification in the same sense that the "only" justification for breathing is that you need oxygen. I mean, yeah - that's "only" one reason, but it's a pretty good one. Same with jumpstarting the in game economy - you might not like the costs personally, but if it works like I think it's intended to, the effects on how people play the game will probably be good for the health of the game overall, especially in the long term.
Besides, as I noted in my other post, I think the costs also make sense on an "effectiveness" scale as well, especially given the added bump in stats above the normal Mk upgrades for Mk XII and Mk XIV.
The counter question I would ask is what is the justification for reducing the costs, besides the benefit to you as an individual? How does you getting even cheaper Mk XIV improve the health of the game as a whole?
It will make more players happy or satisfied with the outcome of the new expansion. I mean the whole idea of playing a game to begin with is to have fun which creates happiness. And if more players are more happy, they will want their friends in on the action and that will increase the player base which could bring in even more money. Not to say money is any reason for anything to happen in a game at all but that would be a perk.
Also, for veterans and long time players (like me) who have shot-the-s***, so-to-speak, we have to do that even more just to get to where we already are. Sure! We will be more effective. But effectiveness should not be the means of fun in this game, and subsequently, happiness. I would say that would stay reserved for PvPers more likely.
Also, you are implying, scratch that, have said that if the price decreases the game would, essentially, die just not immediately.
If Delta Rising doesn't make money, there basically won't be a third expansion, and thus there may simply not be a STO either.
Since changing the costs would likely both hurt Cryptic's bottom line AND break the parts of the system designed to spark the player economy, I think your proposal reducing the costs is not just unnecessary, but actively counter-productive to the long (and short, really) term health of the game.
(composite quote) If that were the case, I would think putting a gamble on a new expansion (no matter how riddled with cash grabs it may be) would not be the smartest move and I will give credit to Cryptic/PWE that they are not that stupid. Which then brings me to thinking that, what you said, probably, was an over-exaggeration on your part. Which then brings a little more confidence to what I and others have said. See above post (Someone who actually has access to Tribble since it's so relevant to you)
I am currently unable to upgrade any of my fleet tiered romulan ships...1000 day vet ship...not one of them will upgrade.
What I get is a window telling me to buy a coin from the cstore to purchase the upgrade. When I try to buy it, a blank window opens. And nothing happens.
It was something raised in one of the threads based on what Geko had said, and whether what he was saying was being taken out of context.
He said that the increase from Mk XII to Mk XIII was twice as good as Mk XI to Mk XII...and that from Mk XIII to Mk XIV was twice as good as well. Heavily paraphrased there, I'd need to hunt down the thread. But the question that was raised was the following - was he saying...
(A)
With Mk 0 - Mk XII, you have an increase of X.
With Mk XII -> Mk XIII, you haven an increase of 2 * X.
With Mk XIII -> Mk XIV, you have an increase of 4 * X.
(B)
With Mk 0 - Mk XII, you have an increase of X.
With Mk XII -> Mk XIII, you haven an increase of 2 * X.
With Mk XIII -> Mk XIV, you have an increase of 2 * X.
Where it was more a case he was saying the increase from Mk XII -> Mk XIV was 4 * X rather than Mk XIII -> Mk XIV was 4 * X.
And I got sidetracked and can't remember what thread that discussion was in to save my life...meh. I should go look - it would be one of the recent podcast threads...hrmm.
Unfortunately, as far as I've seen, ship gear doesn't get this bump up. Taking deflectors as an example, going up each mark gives you .6 more skill. If this only applies to weapons, then we have more of the same DPS centric mentality.
So for some deflector that doesn't have lets say power insulators innately but has the [Ins] mod tied to it.
MK XII = 8.8
MK XIII = 9.6
MK XIV = 10
Frankly, it follows a very very linear boost in any stat.
As for your linear versus exponential point, two things are very important - first, the stat gains from Mk XII to Mk XIV are actually bigger than the previous stat gains, so, if you accept (as you seem to) that it's reasonable to equate (at some level) combat effectiveness and cost, the upgrades should certainly be more expensive than your 3750 figure.
Someone should create a table of equipment stats from Mk XII to Mk XIV. That way we can see whether the benefits are actually worth the costs.
Here is some data---partly from mightybobcnc's image and partly numbers that I wrote down.
But from what I can tell, stats increase roughly linearly from marks I to XII. You can confirm this by checking the stats of various equipment on the STO wiki.
Much more importantly, however, is the fact that linear improvements to combat 'stats' typically provide exponential improvements to combat "effectiveness", and as such, if we are pricing based on effectiveness, and not stats, an exponential (or geometric) cost formula is more likely to be appropriate.
What I mean by this distinction between stats and "effectiveness" is this - by improving your firepower, you decrease the time it takes to kill your enemies, which in turn reduces the incoming damage, which in turn makes your heals relatively more effective, which means you disengage less often to heal up, which further improves the rate at which you deliver damage, which further reduces the amount of damage you take, and so on. Thus, if we link (as I think we should) prices to the EFFECTIVENESS of the items, and not merely their stats, Cryptic's scaling system for costs makes more sense.
Considering all your equipment together makes things much harder to quantify. I don't quite agree that combat effectiveness increases exponentially with stats, but I'm not sure how you would formalize this concept of "effectiveness" in the first place. Let us ignore this difficulty for now and assume that you are correct: Effectiveness increases exponentially with mark. In your opinion, what is the base of exponent? I feel that the base is less than 1.1. Cryptic seems to be using a base between 1.25 and 2 for the upgrade costs; in most cases, the base is 2. I definitely don't feel that my combat effectiveness doubles when I increase all of my equipment by one mark.
I am currently unable to upgrade any of my fleet tiered romulan ships...1000 day vet ship...not one of them will upgrade.
What I get is a window telling me to buy a coin from the cstore to purchase the upgrade. When I try to buy it, a blank window opens. And nothing happens.
I think you have the wrong thread. You're probably looking for the Official Ship Upgrade Feedback Thread, which for some reason is in the Redshirt forums.
I don't really like the Rarity upgrade process at the end. Having a rarity upgrade as a tiny 5% chance that is guaranteed to fail 99.99% of the time isn't fun. Having the rarity upgrade fail 5 or more times in a row is the antithesis of fun.
Right now a rarity upgrade attempt costs 1.5x the cost to upgrade from XIII to XIV. But if--excuse me when--it fails several times in a row the true cost is more like 4-9x the cost of upgrading from XIII to XIV.
So if I have a standard Ultra Rare beam array* Mk XIV that costs 144,000 TP to upgrade from XIII to XIV, then it that means the cost to attempt a rarity increase is 216,000 TP. If the upgrade does fail 5 times before succeeding on the 6th time that's a whopping 1,944,000 TP needed to go from UV to Gold.
Rough numbers say that this is (assuming you crafted the upgrades yourself): 163,400 dilithium to apply the upgrades + 2,280,000 EC to craft the upgrades +
crafting mats & components (and their EC cost if you bought rather than farmed them)
for one rarity upgrade on one weapon**, and that's using only Superior tech upgrades which require level 15 in an R&D school to craft (I'm not going to even try to predict what the going rate for these on the exchange will be for those that don't have level 15 or refuse to participate in R&D but I can guarantee it's not going to be 15,000 EC which means inflate the EC number above by another digit to 22mil. Also note that my above math doesn't take into account TP overflow but the difference would be negligible. And that's not to mention the cost of getting to XIV UR in the first place.
Honestly it's really not fun at all, even if you ignore the staggering cost of a Gold item, to have an upgrade fail repeatedly. Can't we just have a fixed cost on rarity upgrades (frankly 90,000 dilithium should be plenty for a Gold upgrade)? Mark Level upgrades are already a fixed cost; you get a guaranteed Mk level for X amount of TP. Why can't we get a guaranteed Rarity level after finishing XIV for Y amount of TP? What we have right now is a hidden cost system for rarity upgrades. If you only casually glance at the TP price to "attempt" a rarity increase it looks fairly reasonable on its face, "Hey 216,000 TP is about 18,000 dilithium, that's not so bad for Gold quality."
Of course I expect that if we had a guaranteed Rarity level for Y amount of TP then instead of being 1.5x the cost of an XIII to XIV upgrade, they would probably jack the price of a rarity upgrade up to 3x or 4x the cost*** of XIII to XIV and that would scare away the aforementioned 'casual glancers' that don't pay attention to the hidden cost system that will blindly throw more money at the system
, because then the true cost of a rarity increase would be laid bare right up front for them to see; info they would normally not calculate.
And of course, none of the above includes any "Skip now" dilithium costs during the R&D or Upgrade process for the impatient ones out there. Of course, the time gating required for crafting literally hundreds of upgrades, plus the time gating on the upgrade process itself is designed to 'encourage' clicking on that Skip button. Who wants to wait weeks for upgrades?
*or standard deflector, shield, engine, warp/singularity core. (Including Fleet gear and Lockbox/Reputation store weapons [not reputation set weapons])
**For space reputation gear, multiply these numbers by 1.66
***This is effectively how the system works right now already, it's just that the system is designed to obfuscate the fact that the true cost is several times more than an XIII to XIV upgrade. When you
take into account the RNG's fail/success ratio it's probably tuned to average out to a rough X cost for a rarity upgrade that is some multiple of the XIII to XIV upgrade.
Upgrading our gear will be coming to Holodeck early! There is now a promotional event that will be taking place where you can get free superior tech upgrades. These upgrades will be bound to character. More info can be found here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7007533
On that note, this is a very nice gesture on Cryptic/PWE's part, but the amount Tech "Upgrades" (term used by PWE which I believe they meant to say kits) is not enough to get our gear to the next Mk. Which, until the drop of DR, will not be higher than mk XIII UR. I was actually looking forward to the wait for DR because then I had more time to stockpile. But now, they get to milk us early I guess. Grinding/Farming.... here I come.... again.
Upgrading our gear will be coming to Holodeck early! There is now a promotional event that will be taking place where you can get free superior tech upgrades. These upgrades will be bound to character. More info can be found here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7007533
On that note, this is a very nice gesture on Cryptic/PWE's part, but the amount Tech "Upgrades" (term used by PWE which I believe they meant to say kits) is not enough to get our gear to the next Mk. Which, until the drop of DR, will not be higher than mk XIII UR. I was actually looking forward to the wait for DR because then I had more time to stockpile. But now, they get to milk us early I guess. Grinding/Farming.... here I come.... again.
A nice gesture but it just might backfire on them. Once everyone realizes how insane the costs are for upgrading, they will quickly not give a TRIBBLE about the system until the costs are significantly reduced.
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Looking for a new fleet? Drop by the in-game chat channel, "tenforwardforum", and say hi to the members of A Fleet Called Ten Forward (Fed) and The Orion Pirates (KDF). If you already have a fleet you are happy with, please feel free to drop by our chat channel if you are looking for a friendly bunch of helpful people to socialize with.
A nice gesture but it just might backfire on them. Once everyone realizes how insane the costs are for upgrading, they will quickly not give a TRIBBLE about the system until the costs are significantly reduced.
Yes, and as someone put in on the thread for the event itself, "let the bullets fly". I wouldn't be suprised though, if people became more upset over the fact that they can't get to mk XIV gold now and have to wait un til DR drops
Upgrading our gear will be coming to Holodeck early! There is now a promotional event that will be taking place where you can get free superior tech upgrades. These upgrades will be bound to character. More info can be found here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/7007533
Huh, well I wasn't expecting that. So tell me, are they going to fix the small mountain of bugs with upgrading items before this goes live or are we just going to get started early on the DR forum rage threads when someone's TR-116B goes from Mk XII to Mk X when someone "upgrades" it?
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Huh, well I wasn't expecting that. So tell me, are they going to fix the small mountain of bugs with upgrading items before this goes live or are we just going to get started early on the DR forum rage threads when someone's TR-116B goes from Mk XII to Mk X when someone "upgrades" it?
I think it's gonna be released as is. Which is gonna create A LOT of rage and, like always, it will be ignored. But hey, free Superior tech upgrade kits! -_-
Items I can not upgrade in the current Tribble build: [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,276
--- Note that [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XI] *CAN* be upgraded past Tier 12. I was able to get [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XIV [Aux]] (Fleet level) with a bit of testing from the Mk 11 version. [Omega Force Hyper-Impulse Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,277
[Aegis Deflector Array] - ticket ID #47,299 [Aegis Hyper-Impulse Engines] - ticket ID #47,300 [Aegis Covariant Shield Array] - ticket ID #47,301
--- These Aegis items were crafted before the R&D revamp
[Obelisk Subspace Rift Warp Core] - ticket ID #47,274. [Console - Universal - Assimilated Module] - ticket ID #47,259 [Console - Universal - Proton Particle Stabilizer] - ticket ID #47,258
All Thoron Infused Polaron Space Weapons - ticket ID #47,279
--- purched them through the Delta Alliance reputation store. [Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons [Dmg]x4] - ticket ID #47,278 [Solanae Dual Heavy Proton Cannons [Acc] [CrtH]x2] - ticket ID #47,281 [Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo] - ticket ID #47,282. [Omni-Directional Antiproton Beam Array [Acc] [Arc] [Dmg]] - ticket ID #47,275
[Federation Combat Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,283 [Solanae Enforcer Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,289 [Solanae Marksman Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,290. [Solanae Striker Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,291
[Crystal Nanofiber Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,284 [Refractive Nanofiber Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,285 [Hyper-Compressed Cryo Launcher Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,286
[Nukara Strikeforce Elite Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,287. [Nukara Strikeforce Elite Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,288
[Solanae Secondary Deflector] issues: [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]]'s [AUX] bonus gives +0.03 Aux power... Hopefully this is a bug ? - ticket ID #47,293
Also, the Solanae Secondary Deflector does not get a third modifier with its Epic upgrade. Mine got [Ins] going from Rare to VRare, and [Aux] when it upgraded to Fleet quality. It didn't get anything when upgrading to Epic. - ticket ID #47,294
Tangentially related issues:
Consoles that are Rare (Blue) that should be Epic (Gold): [Console - Universal - Dominion Command Interface] - ticket ID #47,295 [Console - Universal - Subspace Integration Circuit] - ticket ID #47,296 [Console - Universal - Fluidic Phase Decoupler] - ticket ID #47,297. [Console - Universal - Alpha Deception Field] - ticket ID #47,298
Items I can not upgrade in the current Tribble build: [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,276
--- Note that [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XI] *CAN* be upgraded past Tier 12. I was able to get [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XIV [Aux]] (Fleet level) with a bit of testing from the Mk 11 version. [Omega Force Hyper-Impulse Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,277
[Aegis Deflector Array] - ticket ID #47,299 [Aegis Hyper-Impulse Engines] - ticket ID #47,300 [Aegis Covariant Shield Array] - ticket ID #47,301
--- These Aegis items were crafted before the R&D revamp
[Obelisk Subspace Rift Warp Core] - ticket ID #47,274. [Console - Universal - Assimilated Module] - ticket ID #47,259 [Console - Universal - Proton Particle Stabilizer] - ticket ID #47,258
All Thoron Infused Polaron Space Weapons - ticket ID #47,279
--- purched them through the Delta Alliance reputation store. [Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons [Dmg]x4] - ticket ID #47,278 [Solanae Dual Heavy Proton Cannons [Acc] [CrtH]x2] - ticket ID #47,281 [Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo] - ticket ID #47,282. [Omni-Directional Antiproton Beam Array [Acc] [Arc] [Dmg]] - ticket ID #47,275
[Federation Combat Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,283 [Solanae Enforcer Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,289 [Solanae Marksman Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,290. [Solanae Striker Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,291
[Crystal Nanofiber Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,284 [Refractive Nanofiber Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,285 [Hyper-Compressed Cryo Launcher Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,286
[Nukara Strikeforce Elite Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,287. [Nukara Strikeforce Elite Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,288
[Solanae Secondary Deflector] issues: [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]]'s [AUX] bonus gives +0.03 Aux power... Hopefully this is a bug ? - ticket ID #47,293
Also, the Solanae Secondary Deflector does not get a third modifier with its Epic upgrade. Mine got [Ins] going from Rare to VRare, and [Aux] when it upgraded to Fleet quality. It didn't get anything when upgrading to Epic. - ticket ID #47,294
Tangentially related issues:
Consoles that are Rare (Blue) that should be Epic (Gold): [Console - Universal - Dominion Command Interface] - ticket ID #47,295 [Console - Universal - Subspace Integration Circuit] - ticket ID #47,296 [Console - Universal - Fluidic Phase Decoupler] - ticket ID #47,297. [Console - Universal - Alpha Deception Field] - ticket ID #47,298
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Upgrade costs are too different for the same type of item. Some items have a reasonable cost to upgrade (for instance fleet items) while others are fare more expensive to upgrade (such as reputation rewards).
For example: [Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 72,000 Technology points/6450 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XII]
Costs 106,240 Technology points/9675 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 144,000 Technology points/12,900 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIII]
Costs 212,480 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIV [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 216,000 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium per +2.5% chance to upgrade its quality to Epic. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV]
Costs 318,720 Technology points/26,875 Dilithium per 5% chance to upgrade its quality to Fleet level.
Further, to show a more comparable comparison, each attempt to upgrade the Fleet version of the [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV] is:
358,560 Technology points/31,175 Dilithium
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core costs 12,750 Dilithium to buy from a fleet store, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core costs 32,500 Dilithium.
The cost to upgrade the Hyper-Charged Warp Core from Mk XII to Mk XIV is 19350 Dilithium, while the Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core has a total cost of 27,950 Dilithium, a difference of 8,600 Dilithium.
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core requires 18,275 Dilithium per attempt to upgrade to Epic, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core requires a whopping 31,175 Dilithium.
That's a difference in cost per upgrade attempt from Fleet to Epic quality of 12,900 dilithium per 2.5%! Another way to look at that is that for every 2 attempts to improve the quality of your Dyson Warp Core, you could have made 3 attempts with the Fleet warp core.
So not only does it take more Dilithium to purchase the Dyson Warp Core, but it also costs far more to upgrade it. That is just silly. It quite literally feels like the player is being punished for using Reputation gear instead of Fleet gear.
This seems to be almost universally true. So far I've tested it for numerous consoles, ship weapons, ground gear, Ship Shields, and Warp Cores. Additionally, Special crafted gear (TR-116b, Conductive RCS Accelerator, etc.) also seems to be comparable to fleet gear in it's cost to upgrade.
The costs to upgrade reputation gear seems disproportionately higher. This is especially true when you consider the costs I've listed are significantly higher to upgrade a Very Rare level item versus upgrading a Fleet level piece of equipment. This cost difference is counter-intuitive; it simply doesn't make sense. Why is there such a disparity between the two ?
Fleet level gear has a good feel for the cost to level. In my opinion, all the other gear in the game should have its tech point requirements normalized based off of Fleet gear costs (please also remember to account for the fact that the gear is not yet fleet level, and adjust the cost accordingly).
Upgrade costs are too different for the same type of item. Some items have a reasonable cost to upgrade (for instance fleet items) while others are fare more expensive to upgrade (such as reputation rewards).
For example: [Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 72,000 Technology points/6450 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XII]
Costs 106,240 Technology points/9675 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 144,000 Technology points/12,900 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIII]
Costs 212,480 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIV [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 216,000 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium per +2.5% chance to upgrade its quality to Epic. [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV]
Costs 318,720 Technology points/26,875 Dilithium per 5% chance to upgrade its quality to Fleet level.
Further, to show a more comparable comparison, each attempt to upgrade the Fleet version of the [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV] is:
358,560 Technology points/31,175 Dilithium
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core costs 12,750 Dilithium to buy from a fleet store, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core costs 32,500 Dilithium.
The cost to upgrade the Hyper-Charged Warp Core from Mk XII to Mk XIV is 19350 Dilithium, while the Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core has a total cost of 27,950 Dilithium, a difference of 8,600 Dilithium.
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core requires 18,275 Dilithium per attempt to upgrade to Epic, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core requires a whopping 31,175 Dilithium.
That's a difference in cost per upgrade attempt from Fleet to Epic quality of 12,900 dilithium per 2.5%! Another way to look at that is that for every 2 attempts to improve the quality of your Dyson Warp Core, you could have made 3 attempts with the Fleet warp core.
So not only does it take more Dilithium to purchase the Dyson Warp Core, but it also costs far more to upgrade it. That is just silly. It quite literally feels like the player is being punished for using Reputation gear instead of Fleet gear.
This seems to be almost universally true. So far I've tested it for numerous consoles, ship weapons, ground gear, Ship Shields, and Warp Cores. Additionally, Special crafted gear (TR-116b, Conductive RCS Accelerator, etc.) also seems to be comparable to fleet gear in it's cost to upgrade.
The costs to upgrade reputation gear seems disproportionately higher. This is especially true when you consider the costs I've listed are significantly higher to upgrade a Very Rare level item versus upgrading a Fleet level piece of equipment. This cost difference is counter-intuitive; it simply doesn't make sense. Why is there such a disparity between the two ?
Fleet level gear has a good feel for the cost to level. In my opinion, all the other gear in the game should have its tech point requirements normalized based off of Fleet gear costs (please also remember to account for the fact that the gear is not yet fleet level, and adjust the cost accordingly).
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Wow! Nice find! Yeah, the prices should be evened out and then dropped by roughly 20-25%. But again, very nice find.
The debs noticed the Solanae [AUX] bug from a thread I started, but I failed to notice it needed one more mod.
To the debs, I vote for [FLOW] as I have yet to see any set deflectors get that particular one and it enhances the shield siphon. (Please don't TRIBBLE it up as with not putting [FLOW] on the Jem'Hadar one, and I hope the Breen one gets it)
[Solanae Secondary Deflector] issues: [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]]'s [AUX] bonus gives +0.03 Aux power... Hopefully this is a bug ? - ticket ID #47,293
Also, the Solanae Secondary Deflector does not get a third modifier with its Epic upgrade. Mine got [Ins] going from Rare to VRare, and [Aux] when it upgraded to Fleet quality. It didn't get anything when upgrading to Epic. - ticket ID #47,294
The debs noticed the Solanae [AUX] bug from a thread I started, but I failed to notice it needed one more mod.
To the debs, I vote for [FLOW] as I have yet to see any set deflectors get that particular one and it enhances the shield siphon. (Please don't TRIBBLE it up as with not putting [FLOW] on the Jem'Hadar one, and I hope the Breen one gets it)
The bonus mod for an item at Epic (Gold) quality is a unique special mod that doesn't otherwise appear, generally more powerful than other mods. These are: Space Shield: [Cp/Rg] Combined capacity/regen boost Space Impulse Engine: [Drv2] Overcharged driver coil, double coil bonus Space Deflector: [SS/SI] Interlaced integrity, structural integrity/shield systems combined bonus Space Weapon: [Ac/Dm]: Bonus accuracy/damage combo Ground Shield: [Cap2] Double capacity bonus Ground Armor: [ResAll/HP] Bonus HP and bonus resist all damage Ground Weapon: [Dm/CrH] Bonus damage and critical chance combo
This is a question for everyone, but mightybobcnc has a ton of data, so I thought a good place to start would be here. Anyways, I am wondering if one can upgrade a VR conductive rcs accelerator to an UR version using this upgrade system. If so, what does it look like? I know it would need to go through XIII and XIV before gaining rarity, but I am just curious if it would gain one or more of those nice additional stat boosts the current craftable UR versions get.
Obviously the question stands for the science particle field version, as well. I am just wondering if this might wreak havoc with the current exchange prices for these consoles, given their cost and how many bugs there are with upgradable items on Tribble.
I still can't upgrade the borg console assimilated module, can't upgrade romulan rep item experimental plasma beam array, can't upgrade rep item assimilated borg engines.
Excluding the use of the 'Superior Experimental**' upgrade kits that add 2x chance for a Rarity increase, and any accelerators or other potential C-store items that might do the same, the Common items have a 40% base chance to have a Rarity increase when you fill up the TP bar to upgrade their Mark level. Uncommons have 20%, Rares are 10% (seeing a pattern here?), Very Rare is 5%, and Ultra Rare is 2.5%. Every time a Mark increase happens, this % chance gets reset.
Once you reach the Mk limit of XIV, this is also the same amount that will be added for every failed Rarity increase attempt. So if you want to upgrade your Very Rare Mk XIV Doodad into an Ultra Rare Mk XIV Doodad, you have a 5% chance that you'll get that Rarity increase on your first try once you fill up the TP bar. If it fails, then you fill up the TP bar a second time, and it'll add another 5% so now you have a 10% chance for a Rarity increase on your second try. And so on and so forth until you actually get your Rarity increase.
I hope what I just said made sense, I'm not always the best at explaining things.
**really curious about the drop rates for that Salvage item that is required to craft these. If it's not as ridiculously rare as the old Prototype Salvage from before the Rep system then this might be a decent supplement to upgrading costs.
Here's an actual example from tonight: Rare [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XII] has a 10% chance to crit a rarity increase. The Mark level went up but the rarity crit failed. Rare [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIII] has a 10% chance to crit a rarity increase. The Mark level went up but the rarity crit failed. Rare [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV] has a 10% chance to crit a rarity increase. The Mark level is already capped at XIV and the rarity crit failed.
Upon repeat it added another 10% for a total of 20% chance to crit a rarity increase. This crit attempt also failed.
Repeating again added another 10% for a total of 30% chance to crit a rarity increase. This crit attempt succeeded and now the secondary deflector is Very Rare.
Very Rare [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Ins]] has a 5% chance to crit a rarity increase. This crit failed.
Repeat added another 5% for a total of 10% chance to crit a rarity increase. This crit failed.
Repeat added 5% for a total of 15%. This crit succeeded and now the secondary deflector is Ultra Rare.
Ultra Rare [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]] has a base crit chance of 2.5%. No surprise here, that crit failed.
Repeat added another 2.5% for 5% total. Amazingly this crit succeeded and I ended up with an Epic [Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]]
Thank you for the information. Based on this, I calculate that it would take on average 5.293585 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Very Rare to Ultra Rare and 7.609113 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Ultra Rare to Epic. For a Mk XIV space weapon, the expected costs are as follows:
Very Rare to Ultra Rare
5.293585 trials
79.4038 superior tech upgrades
85,359 dilithium
1,191,057 EC
Ultra Rare to Epic
7.609113 trials
128.4038 superior tech upgrades
138,034 dilithium
1,926,057 EC
Formulas
p = initial probability of success = increase in probability of success per failure
M = maximum number of trials until success
X = number of trials until success (this is a random variable)
M = ceiling(1/p - 1) + 1
E[X] = sum_{i=1}^M i * min(i*p, 1) * prod_{j=1}^{i-1} (1 - j*p)
If 1/p is an integer, then the above formulas can be simplified to
M = 1/p
E[X] = sum_{i=1}^M i^2 * p * prod_{j=1}^{i-1} (1 - j*p)
This is a question for everyone, but mightybobcnc has a ton of data, so I thought a good place to start would be here. Anyways, I am wondering if one can upgrade a VR conductive rcs accelerator to an UR version using this upgrade system. If so, what does it look like? I know it would need to go through XIII and XIV before gaining rarity, but I am just curious if it would gain one or more of those nice additional stat boosts the current craftable UR versions get.
Obviously the question stands for the science particle field version, as well. I am just wondering if this might wreak havoc with the current exchange prices for these consoles, given their cost and how many bugs there are with upgradable items on Tribble.
Yes, you can upgrade the Conductive RCS Accelerator.
So I've mostly seen Engineering console bonuses, but I did get +Shield HPs, so the avalible mod pool for the Fleet upgrade may use the same pool as when you get a fleet version by critting while crafting.
You don't get a second Mod when going from Fleet quality to Epic. This seems to be this way with all console upgrades, so it may be intended.
p = initial probability of success = increase in probability of success per failure
M = maximum number of trials until success
X = number of trials until success (this is a random variable)
M = ceiling(1/p - 1) + 1
E[X] = sum_{i=1}^M i^2 * p * prod_{j=1}^{i-1} (1 - j*p)
Oh god my head. That is way beyond me. Care to spell it out for the dum dums? (Got a link to some math website that explains that formula and perhaps has a handy Excel version?) :P Although ~5 for VR to UR and ~6-7 for UR to Epic does sound about right in my experience. Does this formula only apply to rarity bumps once you're already at the XIV cap or does it also work to guess the odds of a lucky Rarity bump during the Mark increase process before you get to XIV when the base % gets reset every time the Mark goes up?
Do you need more data to refine it or do you have all you need already?
Thank you for the information. Based on this, I calculate that it would take on average 5.293585 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Very Rare to Ultra Rare and 7.609113 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Ultra Rare to Epic.
Does that include the success? i.e. does '5 trials to go from Very Rare to Ultra Rare' mean 4 failures and 1 success or is it 5 failures and then 1 success?
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Comments
Unfortunately, as far as I've seen, ship gear doesn't get this bump up. Taking deflectors as an example, going up each mark gives you .6 more skill. If this only applies to weapons, then we have more of the same DPS centric mentality.
So for some deflector that doesn't have lets say power insulators innately but has the [Ins] mod tied to it.
MK XII = 8.8
MK XIII = 9.6
MK XIV = 10
Frankly, it follows a very very linear boost in any stat.
That's right
I mean I'm not saying these changes are bad, obviously they're nice, but it isn't a production cost decrease in terms of paying for the upgrades in the first place.
right right. I'm totally with you on that. But since I don't have access to Tribble I guess my opinion doesn't mean s***. But yeah. I think their goal for the most recent patch to the upgrade system was to encourage achieving gold quality items faster which isn't the ultimate fix to the issues at hand but an incentive solution.
My assertion is, off the cuff, I would expect to pay around 40,000 to 50,000 Dilithium for a brand new Ultra Rare Mk XIV weapon. Since the cost to upgrade is significantly less than that, I consider it a deal.
As for your linear versus exponential point, two things are very important - first, the stat gains from Mk XII to Mk XIV are actually bigger than the previous stat gains, so, if you accept (as you seem to) that it's reasonable to equate (at some level) combat effectiveness and cost, the upgrades should certainly be more expensive than your 3750 figure.
Much more importantly, however, is the fact that linear improvements to combat 'stats' typically provide exponential improvements to combat "effectiveness", and as such, if we are pricing based on effectiveness, and not stats, an exponential (or geometric) cost formula is more likely to be appropriate.
What I mean by this distinction between stats and "effectiveness" is this - by improving your firepower, you decrease the time it takes to kill your enemies, which in turn reduces the incoming damage, which in turn makes your heals relatively more effective, which means you disengage less often to heal up, which further improves the rate at which you deliver damage, which further reduces the amount of damage you take, and so on. Thus, if we link (as I think we should) prices to the EFFECTIVENESS of the items, and not merely their stats, Cryptic's scaling system for costs makes more sense.
What more justification do you need? Those are both pretty huge reasons why the system is the way it is. Cryptic needs to make money to justify doing big expansions to the game - it's the "only" justification in the same sense that the "only" justification for breathing is that you need oxygen. I mean, yeah - that's "only" one reason, but it's a pretty good one. Same with jumpstarting the in game economy - you might not like the costs personally, but if it works like I think it's intended to, the effects on how people play the game will probably be good for the health of the game overall, especially in the long term.
Besides, as I noted in my other post, I think the costs also make sense on an "effectiveness" scale as well, especially given the added bump in stats above the normal Mk upgrades for Mk XII and Mk XIV.
The counter question I would ask is what is the justification for reducing the costs, besides the benefit to you as an individual? How does you getting even cheaper Mk XIV improve the health of the game as a whole?
It's the sheer amount of dilithium involved and the time-gating on the crafting system as a whole. If you need to get that much it makes it neigh on impossible for newer players to catch-up with veteran players without spending an obscene amount on the game, which frankly isn't worth it, anyone with a remote adeptness with maths will work that out.
Now here's a few corkers:
Now working from those things that devs have said, what happens?
Basically new player spends a year at least grinding to the top, which if they have any clue what a rip-off it would be to pay to do it they will most likely need at least a year. The new queues aren't do-able by them as they don't have gear.
This then means they have to run in lesser queues for lesser rewards than the veterans, which means veterans need less successful missions than the newer people. Resource acquiring gap becomes wider.
This then causes newer players to be slow catching up while veterans go through anything quicker, and then when a new level cap hits the new player is lucky to have caught up and as you add more levels the issue becomes more and more exaggerated.
Essentially it isn't sustainable, I mean they removed the clusters because it lost them players and they're not even an issue. If this stays the way it is I can't see people sticking around long simply because of the drag it would be to achieve anything.
It will make more players happy or satisfied with the outcome of the new expansion. I mean the whole idea of playing a game to begin with is to have fun which creates happiness. And if more players are more happy, they will want their friends in on the action and that will increase the player base which could bring in even more money. Not to say money is any reason for anything to happen in a game at all but that would be a perk.
Also, for veterans and long time players (like me) who have shot-the-s***, so-to-speak, we have to do that even more just to get to where we already are. Sure! We will be more effective. But effectiveness should not be the means of fun in this game, and subsequently, happiness. I would say that would stay reserved for PvPers more likely.
Also, you are implying, scratch that, have said that if the price decreases the game would, essentially, die just not immediately. (composite quote) If that were the case, I would think putting a gamble on a new expansion (no matter how riddled with cash grabs it may be) would not be the smartest move and I will give credit to Cryptic/PWE that they are not that stupid. Which then brings me to thinking that, what you said, probably, was an over-exaggeration on your part. Which then brings a little more confidence to what I and others have said. See above post (Someone who actually has access to Tribble since it's so relevant to you)
What I get is a window telling me to buy a coin from the cstore to purchase the upgrade. When I try to buy it, a blank window opens. And nothing happens.
Someone should create a table of equipment stats from Mk XII to Mk XIV. That way we can see whether the benefits are actually worth the costs.
Here is some data---partly from mightybobcnc's image and partly numbers that I wrote down.
Note: I'm going to ignore the plasma proc because I think it depends on whether you are on the ground or in space and, possibly, also on your skills.
Console - Science - Graviton Generator [-Th] [Pla]
Mk X: +8.4% Plasma Damage, -56.2% Threat Generation, +28.1 Graviton Generators
Mk XI: +9% Plasma Damage, -60% Threat Generation, +30 Graviton Generators
Mk XII: +9.6% Plasma Damage, -63.8% Threat Generation, +31.9 Graviton Generators
Mk XIII: +10.1% Plasma Damage, -67.5% Threat Generation, +33.8 Graviton Generators
Mk XIV: +10.7% Plasma Damage, -71.2% Threat Generation, +35.6 Graviton Generators
Mk XI - Mk X: +0.6% Plasma Damage, -3.8% Threat Generation, +1.9 Graviton Generators
Mk XII - Mk XI: +0.6% Plasma Damage, -3.8% Threat Generation, +1.9 Graviton Generators
Mk XIII - Mk XII: +0.5% Plasma Damage, -3.7% Threat Generation, +1.9 Graviton Generators
Mk XIV - Mk XIII: +0.6% Plasma Damage, -3.7% Threat Generation, +1.8 Graviton Generators
The above relationship looks approximately linear to me.
Looking at marks I through XII only for the moment, we can see from the table below that upgrade costs increase roughly exponentially with mark.
http://bit.ly/STOUpgradeTable
But from what I can tell, stats increase roughly linearly from marks I to XII. You can confirm this by checking the stats of various equipment on the STO wiki.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Beam_Array
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Tactical_-_Phaser_Relay
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Covariant_Shield_Array
Considering all your equipment together makes things much harder to quantify. I don't quite agree that combat effectiveness increases exponentially with stats, but I'm not sure how you would formalize this concept of "effectiveness" in the first place. Let us ignore this difficulty for now and assume that you are correct: Effectiveness increases exponentially with mark. In your opinion, what is the base of exponent? I feel that the base is less than 1.1. Cryptic seems to be using a base between 1.25 and 2 for the upgrade costs; in most cases, the base is 2. I definitely don't feel that my combat effectiveness doubles when I increase all of my equipment by one mark.
I think you have the wrong thread. You're probably looking for the Official Ship Upgrade Feedback Thread, which for some reason is in the Redshirt forums.
I agree upgrading costs to gold are obscene.
On that note, this is a very nice gesture on Cryptic/PWE's part, but the amount Tech "Upgrades" (term used by PWE which I believe they meant to say kits) is not enough to get our gear to the next Mk. Which, until the drop of DR, will not be higher than mk XIII UR. I was actually looking forward to the wait for DR because then I had more time to stockpile. But now, they get to milk us early I guess. Grinding/Farming.... here I come.... again.
A nice gesture but it just might backfire on them. Once everyone realizes how insane the costs are for upgrading, they will quickly not give a TRIBBLE about the system until the costs are significantly reduced.
> <
> <
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Yes, and as someone put in on the thread for the event itself, "let the bullets fly". I wouldn't be suprised though, if people became more upset over the fact that they can't get to mk XIV gold now and have to wait un til DR drops
Huh, well I wasn't expecting that. So tell me, are they going to fix the small mountain of bugs with upgrading items before this goes live or are we just going to get started early on the DR forum rage threads when someone's TR-116B goes from Mk XII to Mk X when someone "upgrades" it?
Joined January 2009
I think it's gonna be released as is. Which is gonna create A LOT of rage and, like always, it will be ignored. But hey, free Superior tech upgrade kits! -_-
[Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,276
--- Note that [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XI] *CAN* be upgraded past Tier 12. I was able to get [Assimilated Subtranswarp Engines Mk XIV [Aux]] (Fleet level) with a bit of testing from the Mk 11 version.
[Omega Force Hyper-Impulse Engines Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,277
[Aegis Deflector Array] - ticket ID #47,299
[Aegis Hyper-Impulse Engines] - ticket ID #47,300
[Aegis Covariant Shield Array] - ticket ID #47,301
--- These Aegis items were crafted before the R&D revamp
[Obelisk Subspace Rift Warp Core] - ticket ID #47,274.
[Console - Universal - Assimilated Module] - ticket ID #47,259
[Console - Universal - Proton Particle Stabilizer] - ticket ID #47,258
All Thoron Infused Polaron Space Weapons - ticket ID #47,279
--- purched them through the Delta Alliance reputation store.
[Kumari Phaser Wing Cannons [Dmg]x4] - ticket ID #47,278
[Solanae Dual Heavy Proton Cannons [Acc] [CrtH]x2] - ticket ID #47,281
[Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo] - ticket ID #47,282.
[Omni-Directional Antiproton Beam Array [Acc] [Arc] [Dmg]] - ticket ID #47,275
[Federation Combat Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,283
[Solanae Enforcer Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,289
[Solanae Marksman Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,290.
[Solanae Striker Environmental Suit] - ticket ID #47,291
[Crystal Nanofiber Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,284
[Refractive Nanofiber Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,285
[Hyper-Compressed Cryo Launcher Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,286
[Nukara Strikeforce Elite Environmental Suit Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,287.
[Nukara Strikeforce Elite Personal Shield Matrix Mk XII] - ticket ID #47,288
[Solanae Secondary Deflector] issues:
[Solanae Secondary Deflector Mk XIV [Aux] [Ins]]'s [AUX] bonus gives +0.03 Aux power... Hopefully this is a bug ? - ticket ID #47,293
Also, the Solanae Secondary Deflector does not get a third modifier with its Epic upgrade. Mine got [Ins] going from Rare to VRare, and [Aux] when it upgraded to Fleet quality. It didn't get anything when upgrading to Epic. - ticket ID #47,294
Tangentially related issues:
Consoles that are Rare (Blue) that should be Epic (Gold):
[Console - Universal - Dominion Command Interface] - ticket ID #47,295
[Console - Universal - Subspace Integration Circuit] - ticket ID #47,296
[Console - Universal - Fluidic Phase Decoupler] - ticket ID #47,297.
[Console - Universal - Alpha Deception Field] - ticket ID #47,298
Well done, my good sir.
Well done.
And now for something whimsical!!
https://i.imgur.com/U1DlSwd.jpg
Joined January 2009
For example:
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 72,000 Technology points/6450 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII.
[Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XII]
Costs 106,240 Technology points/9675 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIII.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIII [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 144,000 Technology points/12,900 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV.
[Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIII]
Costs 212,480 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium to upgrade to Mk XIV.
[Elite Fleet Hyper-Charged Warp Core Mk XIV [AMP] [ECap] [Eff] [Trans] [W->A]]
Costs 216,000 Technology points/18,275 Dilithium per +2.5% chance to upgrade its quality to Epic.
[Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV]
Costs 318,720 Technology points/26,875 Dilithium per 5% chance to upgrade its quality to Fleet level.
Further, to show a more comparable comparison, each attempt to upgrade the Fleet version of the [Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core Mk XIV] is:
358,560 Technology points/31,175 Dilithium
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core costs 12,750 Dilithium to buy from a fleet store, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core costs 32,500 Dilithium.
The cost to upgrade the Hyper-Charged Warp Core from Mk XII to Mk XIV is 19350 Dilithium, while the Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core has a total cost of 27,950 Dilithium, a difference of 8,600 Dilithium.
A Hyper-Charged Warp Core requires 18,275 Dilithium per attempt to upgrade to Epic, while a Dyson Field Stabilizing Warp Core requires a whopping 31,175 Dilithium.
That's a difference in cost per upgrade attempt from Fleet to Epic quality of 12,900 dilithium per 2.5%! Another way to look at that is that for every 2 attempts to improve the quality of your Dyson Warp Core, you could have made 3 attempts with the Fleet warp core.
So not only does it take more Dilithium to purchase the Dyson Warp Core, but it also costs far more to upgrade it. That is just silly. It quite literally feels like the player is being punished for using Reputation gear instead of Fleet gear.
This seems to be almost universally true. So far I've tested it for numerous consoles, ship weapons, ground gear, Ship Shields, and Warp Cores. Additionally, Special crafted gear (TR-116b, Conductive RCS Accelerator, etc.) also seems to be comparable to fleet gear in it's cost to upgrade.
The costs to upgrade reputation gear seems disproportionately higher. This is especially true when you consider the costs I've listed are significantly higher to upgrade a Very Rare level item versus upgrading a Fleet level piece of equipment. This cost difference is counter-intuitive; it simply doesn't make sense. Why is there such a disparity between the two ?
Fleet level gear has a good feel for the cost to level. In my opinion, all the other gear in the game should have its tech point requirements normalized based off of Fleet gear costs (please also remember to account for the fact that the gear is not yet fleet level, and adjust the cost accordingly).
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Wow! Nice find! Yeah, the prices should be evened out and then dropped by roughly 20-25%. But again, very nice find.
To the debs, I vote for [FLOW] as I have yet to see any set deflectors get that particular one and it enhances the shield siphon. (Please don't TRIBBLE it up as with not putting [FLOW] on the Jem'Hadar one, and I hope the Breen one gets it)
Should have gotten the [SS/SI] mod...eh?
This is a question for everyone, but mightybobcnc has a ton of data, so I thought a good place to start would be here. Anyways, I am wondering if one can upgrade a VR conductive rcs accelerator to an UR version using this upgrade system. If so, what does it look like? I know it would need to go through XIII and XIV before gaining rarity, but I am just curious if it would gain one or more of those nice additional stat boosts the current craftable UR versions get.
Obviously the question stands for the science particle field version, as well. I am just wondering if this might wreak havoc with the current exchange prices for these consoles, given their cost and how many bugs there are with upgradable items on Tribble.
Thank you for the information. Based on this, I calculate that it would take on average 5.293585 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Very Rare to Ultra Rare and 7.609113 trials to upgrade a Mk XIV item from Ultra Rare to Epic. For a Mk XIV space weapon, the expected costs are as follows:
Very Rare to Ultra Rare
5.293585 trials
79.4038 superior tech upgrades
85,359 dilithium
1,191,057 EC
Ultra Rare to Epic
7.609113 trials
128.4038 superior tech upgrades
138,034 dilithium
1,926,057 EC
Formulas
p = initial probability of success = increase in probability of success per failure
M = maximum number of trials until success
X = number of trials until success (this is a random variable)
M = ceiling(1/p - 1) + 1
E[X] = sum_{i=1}^M i * min(i*p, 1) * prod_{j=1}^{i-1} (1 - j*p)
If 1/p is an integer, then the above formulas can be simplified to
M = 1/p
E[X] = sum_{i=1}^M i^2 * p * prod_{j=1}^{i-1} (1 - j*p)
All Nausicaan tegolar swords
Disruptor pistol and Fed type 3 rifle from "Night of the Comet"
Assimilated subtranswarp engines
Assimilated console
Proton particle stabilizer console
Romulan Disruptor split beam rifle from "Frozen"
Klingon Intelligence stealth utility armor, and Hirogen Tetryon Blast rifle from "Alpha"
Chromodynamic armor "preorder item" so may be intended
probably some others i missed, but nice work getting so much stuff added to upgrade lists.
Yes, you can upgrade the Conductive RCS Accelerator.
I started with this:
http://i.imgur.com/lO4IkGV.jpg
Here's the interface once I got it to Mk 14. You can also see how many Tech points are required for an attempt at Epic:
http://i.imgur.com/4dDYj2A.jpg
Here's some others I leveled up to Mk 14 Epic for kicks and giggles:
http://i.imgur.com/OEf0Z7t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1Wrler5.jpg
Mods I've recieved during upgrading:
[PolAP]
[ResAll]
[ResA]
[ResB]
[AuxPwr]
[ShHP]
[Flow]
So I've mostly seen Engineering console bonuses, but I did get +Shield HPs, so the avalible mod pool for the Fleet upgrade may use the same pool as when you get a fleet version by critting while crafting.
You don't get a second Mod when going from Fleet quality to Epic. This seems to be this way with all console upgrades, so it may be intended.
Oh god my head. That is way beyond me. Care to spell it out for the dum dums? (Got a link to some math website that explains that formula and perhaps has a handy Excel version?) :P Although ~5 for VR to UR and ~6-7 for UR to Epic does sound about right in my experience. Does this formula only apply to rarity bumps once you're already at the XIV cap or does it also work to guess the odds of a lucky Rarity bump during the Mark increase process before you get to XIV when the base % gets reset every time the Mark goes up?
Do you need more data to refine it or do you have all you need already?
Does that include the success? i.e. does '5 trials to go from Very Rare to Ultra Rare' mean 4 failures and 1 success or is it 5 failures and then 1 success?
Joined January 2009