(Perhaps mission reward Mk XI weapons should be allowed? In most cases they will be a rarity level or two down, and one Mk up, so essentially the same as Purple Mk X of chosen mods)
Since there is quite a bit of Mk X-par gear from mission drops that's Mk XI, I'll consider it when I can get back in game on Sunday and think about it in detail.
No hybrid weapons out of a lockbox though. Mission hybrids like plasma-disruptor for example, I'll also consider when I get back.
At times like this, I wish Cryptic would open itself to receiving proposals about how PvP could be revamped, esp to cover special PvP scenarios like this.
With the T5-U and T6 ships coming with "Delta Rising", I know I'd love to see queues where we could play with similarly powered ships.
preliminary rule update: no mirror T5 or vanilla (free) t5 for the moment, to stop anyone simply defaulting to those ships
Doesn't that essentially force people into C-Store T4 ships because those have an additional Boff station and an additional console over plain T4?
I like the idea of PVP without all the recent gear madness, but I'm really not sure why you don't want to go with the cheapest option of plain T5 + mirror ships.
(I tried finding a discussion of this on the previous pages, but all I could find did essentially amount to "because plain/mirror T5 is better than T4" which is obviously true, but doesn't really explain why one chose T4 as the baseline and not T5 or T3.)
Also, without all the normal PvP stuff C-Store T4 vs levelling T4 isn't as one sided as it looks - the Boff and console slot have a lot less value than you expect. (keep in mind C-Store Consoles and Doffs are banned, and everything is Mk X)
Fed side:
Defiant gains Eng boff and console
Galaxy gains Sci Boff and console
Intrepid gains Eng boff and console
Rom side:
D'd swaps an Eng lt into a uni lt, gains Eng boff and console
Ar'Kif swaps a Tac Lt into a uni Lt, gains Tac boff and console
KDF side:
Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships (Flight-deck carrier, Support vessel, Destroyer)
BoP Ens becomes Lt, gains Sci console
Raptor gains Tac boff and Eng console
Cruiser gains Tac Boff and console
Had a couple of matches to try out my Blue Mk X-equipped, T4 Venture Class ship this morning against a couple of different escorts. One I won, other I lost.
It showed even on this very limited trial that the focus and nature of the players involved are such a key element of it: on one it was two of we non-experienced PvPers seeing what it was like and the other against a much more experienced PvPer who has a real focus on PvP. He even removed a tactical console to try to balance things out but it didn't due to the very different styles of play.
In terms of buying equipment/ships, participation does require some level of investment as does anything in STO (I had to free up a slot for the Venture and spend 600k ec on equipment for it), but as the OP said, you'd spend magnitudes of that on the high-level PvP anyway!
The point I'm making is that the extra console on one of a pair of T2, T3 or T4 ships isn't really going to make a huge difference, and as the focus of the channel is on the fun of it, it may indeed be more fruitful of us as channel users to make sure we're matching with similar players.
Yet, the channel has interest and can provide an excellent diversion for those of us who will only ever play PvP casually as well as providing a training ground for up-and-comers who are yet to gain all their top-tier equipment.
I'd therefore suggest that if we're clear in any posts about what type of matches we're after and what our equipment is, the channel will be a great success, for example:
Exp ROM PvPer LF serious escort T4 match
Learner KDF PvPer LF T3 match
Casual FED SCI PvPer LF T2 match
gives everyone a clear indication of what they're getting into. What does everyone think of this as a suggestion?
-ship Tier Depends On Whatever Match We Want To Do - Could Be T2, 3, 4, Or Basic 5 (like Mirror Ships). The Channel Standard Is T4 Unless Otherwise Agreed Upon By Match Participants
-you Must Be Set To Visible On Gateway
-no Gear Above Mk X
-no Rep Passives/actives
-no Traits
-no Reputation Items
-no C-store Items (ships Are Not Items; See End Of List)
-no Quad Cannons
-no Universal Consoles
-nothing That Comes Out Of Lockbox In General
-nothing From The Lobi Store At All
-no Doffs
-no Crafted Items
-no Omni Beams
-no Fleet Stuff
-no Nimbus Pirates
-no Jevonite Hardpoints
-no Scorpion Fighters From The Vault Mission
-batteries And That Devidian Phase Thing Are Okay
-romulans Allowed, But No Boffs With Infiltrator Or Operative Allowed.
-no Using Warp Core/singularity Active Powers
-pets On Flight Deck Cruisers Restricted To Max Of Blue Quality, And Only The "classic" Ones - Like, No Swarmers, Widow Fighters, Etc. That Have Been Introduced Since Lock Boxes
-c-store T2, 3, 4 Ships Allowed
-be Courteous
-be Honorable
So, I've got a question about gear level. The stated maximum level for gear is posted as Mk-X. Therefore, to have the best gear at that rank under normal game-play, one would need Very Rare (purple) quality.
But here's the thing. The way the gear ranking system works is tat the level banding overlaps between two mark levels.
For example a Tetryon Pulse Generator Mk-X does the following bonus to tetryon damage per quality band:
Common: +20.6%
Uncommon: +22.5%
Rare: +24.4%
Very Rare: +26.2%
Now, compare that to Mk-XI stats:
Common: +22.5%
Uncommon: +24.4%
Rare: +26.2%
Very Rare: +28.1%
One can easily see that a Mk-XI blue console is the equivalent of a Mk-X purple console. Now, I haven't checked *every* console in the game but based on my time here this seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
This leads into the next part of the question: Episode Replay. Most of the gear that is obtainable through Mission Replay grants Mk-XI blue quality gear when a player is level 50.
So, if the goal for VPvP is to encourage ease of access for all players, shouldn't the gear level be capped at Mk-XI blue?
It's the same thing as Mk-X purple after all. And you don't have to scour the exchange or go to the dilithium vending machines on K-7/Gandala to get it.
Wouldn't that be the best solution to allow people the easiest access to the most ready-to-play gear?
T5 basic(and Mirror) or even later on adding all retrofits (9 console ships) would make it cheaper for people to enter on top of adding some variety to it. Obviously no fleet or fleet equivalent ships.
And the T4 Cstore ships well, +1 boff and +1 console IS a huge advantage in PvP.
On another note...
Do people think that because it's "Vanilla" PvP players will take it also as very casual???
Meaning that PvPers WILL Min/Max within the rules and they will try to win using their years of experience in builds, skills, target buff reading, teamwork and piloting.
However we will share this knowledge with anyone willing to learn. That's how I learned. It's how I still learn to this day.
It helps form communities, guilds, fleets...friends.
There are some discussions about hauling out our old T2, T3 and T4 ships to have some fun PvP matches in those, and some of us have c-store ship access for that. It's cheaper than buying those levels' ships using dilithium.
Yes, it's vanilla PvP meaning the ships and equipment is basic. This also means it's more accessible to everyone including newly-minted Level 50s with hardly any gear (or ec to buy it), casual players with our focus on the other activities in STO, as well as serious PvP players looking for a new challenge. The issue of making sure we all get some fun and challenge out of matches was the reason I suggested a few posts up about being clear about what we're after in the "Looking for..." posts in channel. It would be quite easy to, for example, have my Romulan break out the old T3 Valdore to go up against a learner's T4... I don't mind being cannon fodder if it helps a newer player with their technique, on their way through to better and better PvP gameplay
Any decision in terms of ships and equipment needs to keep the channel's underlying principle in mind. Getting T5 ships in there starts to skirt dangerously close to the "race to the top" again. Again, easily fixed with my "Looking for" channel posting suggestion but something to keep in mind.
I think it's important that the channel develops as an inclusive place for PvP which means that we need to be careful to go into it with the general spirit of it being the channel for fun, inclusive, and 'no hassles' PvP... and as separate to, and distinct from, the 'heavy duty' (or however anyone wants to put it) PvP options already available.
Telling someone you're chatting with who's unsure if PvP is for them that VPvP is an option for them because it's fun, inclusive and someone should be able to match with them is a lot less daunting than having to lead that intro with a bunch of technical specs.
I agree that this is a great opportunity to form further bonds in the STO community, and particularly between people with different primary interests and focuses in the game. But for this to work, we will all have to be open to what we are each looking for and respecting each other's needs, interests, and boundaries. By doing so, VPvP will achieve its potential.
So, I've got a question about gear level. The stated maximum level for gear is posted as Mk-X. Therefore, to have the best gear at that rank under normal game-play, one would need Very Rare (purple) quality.
But here's the thing. The way the gear ranking system works is tat the level banding overlaps between two mark levels.
For example a Tetryon Pulse Generator Mk-X does the following bonus to tetryon damage per quality band:
Common: +20.6%
Uncommon: +22.5%
Rare: +24.4%
Very Rare: +26.2%
Now, compare that to Mk-XI stats:
Common: +22.5%
Uncommon: +24.4%
Rare: +26.2%
Very Rare: +28.1%
One can easily see that a Mk-XI blue console is the equivalent of a Mk-X purple console. Now, I haven't checked *every* console in the game but based on my time here this seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
This leads into the next part of the question: Episode Replay. Most of the gear that is obtainable through Mission Replay grants Mk-XI blue quality gear when a player is level 50.
So, if the goal for VPvP is to encourage ease of access for all players, shouldn't the gear level be capped at Mk-XI blue?
It's the same thing as Mk-X purple after all. And you don't have to scour the exchange or go to the dilithium vending machines on K-7/Gandala to get it.
Wouldn't that be the best solution to allow people the easiest access to the most ready-to-play gear?
Thanks for listening.
I agree for base equipment, but there's some unique storyline gear out there which MXI would arguably be an issue. Also, allowing for up to MKXI blues would be cheaper as far as exchange purchases in addition to storyline runs.
Regarding the ship tiers keep in mind that there's boosts to ships' effectiveness as they go up in Tiers. This w/xtra boff and console would probably make base T5 and mirror ships of that tier more balanced.
Edit: Unless my eyes missed it there isn't a rule to ban storyline sets, eg Jem and Breen. Is this intended? Also, since Borg gear is rep now I assume it's all banned now? May want to make that clarification since older players would have picked up some pieces as drops (eg Borg Weapons).
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I like this idea so much that I think I'll start doing virtually the same thing. Except with T5 ships. Maybe some weekly round robin style matches.
I think that even moving forward this has potential for many new players to get some PVP in before hitting the obvious cluster**** that will be level 60
Unless of course you guys start doing T5 ships. Wouldn't want to be a spoilsport.
Also, without all the normal PvP stuff C-Store T4 vs levelling T4 isn't as one sided as it looks - the Boff and console slot have a lot less value than you expect. (keep in mind C-Store Consoles and Doffs are banned, and everything is Mk X)
Fed side:
Defiant gains Eng boff and console
Galaxy gains Sci Boff and console
Intrepid gains Eng boff and console
Rom side:
D'd swaps an Eng lt into a uni lt, gains Eng boff and console
Ar'Kif swaps a Tac Lt into a uni Lt, gains Tac boff and console
KDF side:
Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships (Flight-deck carrier, Support vessel, Destroyer)
BoP Ens becomes Lt, gains Sci console
Raptor gains Tac boff and Eng console
Cruiser gains Tac Boff and console
I gota say mate no one has volunteered to test this with me- likely as they know a console and boff slot is a big difference- thats like saying ah a mirror patrol isnt underpowered beside a fleet patrol and they have same boff layout or in current t5u wont b underpowered beside t6/t6 fleet again im open to test this withanyone with a cstore defiant
I gota say mate no one has volunteered to test this with me- likely as they know a console and boff slot is a big difference- thats like saying ah a mirror patrol isnt underpowered beside a fleet patrol and they have same boff layout or in current t5u wont b underpowered beside t6/t6 fleet again im open to test this withanyone with a cstore defiant
It'll be tested in due course, but you are neglecting to consider the restrictions VPvP imposes that reduce just how much the gap is worth.
I agree for base equipment, but there's some unique storyline gear out there which MXI would arguably be an issue. Also, allowing for up to MKXI blues would be cheaper as far as exchange purchases in addition to storyline runs.
Regarding the ship tiers keep in mind that there's boosts to ships' effectiveness as they go up in Tiers. This w/xtra boff and console would probably make base T5 and mirror ships of that tier more balanced.
Edit: Unless my eyes missed it there isn't a rule to ban storyline sets, eg Jem and Breen. Is this intended? Also, since Borg gear is rep now I assume it's all banned now? May want to make that clarification since older players would have picked up some pieces as drops (eg Borg Weapons).
I completely get what you're saying here. The same question crossed my mind w/ the Jem and Breen sets and also level-less items like the Tractor Mines and the Obelisk Warp Core.
I fully get that somewhere the line has to be drawn between accessibility and the need to keep this basic and balanced. If I had to choose between the two I'm very happy to have more restrictions rather than less. I'm quite satisfied with the way it's working so far.
Some kind of ClassicPVP has been proposed before. The oldest codified version is probably from January 2013: Proposed ClassicPVP Rules
(This version had a heavy S1.2 vibe.)
I've seen this idea come up multiple times since then (with minor modifications) and unfortunately it never really took off.
Maybe now that we can fully eliminate Rep powers from the mix it will have more success. I've got my fingers crossed.
I like this idea so much that I think I'll start doing virtually the same thing. Except with T5 ships. Maybe some weekly round robin style matches.
I think that even moving forward this has potential for many new players to get some PVP in before hitting the obvious cluster**** that will be level 60
Unless of course you guys start doing T5 ships. Wouldn't want to be a spoilsport.
We are considering both options, personally I think that when delta comes around t5/mirror would be ok as long as opponents are clearly warned
If the decision is made to adopt the T5 ships will we also be adopting Hilbert's Classic Rules as well? The biggest difference between then and now is that we can disable all the reps where as before they were set.
I fully support making basic T5 (including mirror ships) the norm for vpvp. It would provide for so many more options, and put everyone only 100k EC away from having a viable ship.
If the decision is made to adopt the T5 ships will we also be adopting Hilbert's Classic Rules as well? The biggest difference between then and now is that we can disable all the reps where as before they were set.
If the decision is made to adopt the T5 ships will we also be adopting Hilbert's Classic Rules as well? The biggest difference between then and now is that we can disable all the reps where as before they were set.
I think the basic ideas behind the ClassicPVP and the VPVP rulesets are very much alike.
The primary differences are probably things that aren't covered by ClassicPVP rules because they weren't possible then (things regarding reputation passives and traits, newer mirror ships, warp cores or the tricobalt mine ban which was relevant then but is obsolete now) and the decision of ClassicPVP to allow preorder items like the Red Matter Capacitor.
Whether to restrict to a certain Mk level or not will become more relevant with the level cap increase because that might raise mission replay items to levels even beyond Mk11 blue, so one has to find a balance between availability and power. I tend to support the VPvP idea of capping Mks either at Mk X or Mk XI.
I think if one updated the ClassicPVP rules to accommodate the changed game, it would pretty much only differ from a T5 VPvP ruleset by its stance on preorder items.
Comments
Mission drop - Ok.
Lockbox drop - not Ok.
(Perhaps mission reward Mk XI weapons should be allowed? In most cases they will be a rarity level or two down, and one Mk up, so essentially the same as Purple Mk X of chosen mods)
No hybrid weapons out of a lockbox though. Mission hybrids like plasma-disruptor for example, I'll also consider when I get back.
Mk x is ok, but I think it should be rear 9 console ships & mirror ships to make it more accessible.
Thank you
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
At times like this, I wish Cryptic would open itself to receiving proposals about how PvP could be revamped, esp to cover special PvP scenarios like this.
With the T5-U and T6 ships coming with "Delta Rising", I know I'd love to see queues where we could play with similarly powered ships.
btw we are already up to 30 channel members, great to see it taking off!
i may have deleted it accidentally, because i somehow created channels called mt, and lol no kidding all within the span of 2 minutes somehow.
anywho, resend invite pls
have fun kill bad guys
We've discussed that possibility a few pages back, the verdict is still no T5s in standard (T4) matches.
(previously we said you had to call the match a T5 match, but this is somewhat contrary to the idea of the channel)
I like the idea of PVP without all the recent gear madness, but I'm really not sure why you don't want to go with the cheapest option of plain T5 + mirror ships.
(I tried finding a discussion of this on the previous pages, but all I could find did essentially amount to "because plain/mirror T5 is better than T4" which is obviously true, but doesn't really explain why one chose T4 as the baseline and not T5 or T3.)
Also, without all the normal PvP stuff C-Store T4 vs levelling T4 isn't as one sided as it looks - the Boff and console slot have a lot less value than you expect. (keep in mind C-Store Consoles and Doffs are banned, and everything is Mk X)
Fed side:
Defiant gains Eng boff and console
Galaxy gains Sci Boff and console
Intrepid gains Eng boff and console
Rom side:
D'd swaps an Eng lt into a uni lt, gains Eng boff and console
Ar'Kif swaps a Tac Lt into a uni Lt, gains Tac boff and console
KDF side:
Orion, Gorn and Nausicaan ships (Flight-deck carrier, Support vessel, Destroyer)
BoP Ens becomes Lt, gains Sci console
Raptor gains Tac boff and Eng console
Cruiser gains Tac Boff and console
It showed even on this very limited trial that the focus and nature of the players involved are such a key element of it: on one it was two of we non-experienced PvPers seeing what it was like and the other against a much more experienced PvPer who has a real focus on PvP. He even removed a tactical console to try to balance things out but it didn't due to the very different styles of play.
In terms of buying equipment/ships, participation does require some level of investment as does anything in STO (I had to free up a slot for the Venture and spend 600k ec on equipment for it), but as the OP said, you'd spend magnitudes of that on the high-level PvP anyway!
The point I'm making is that the extra console on one of a pair of T2, T3 or T4 ships isn't really going to make a huge difference, and as the focus of the channel is on the fun of it, it may indeed be more fruitful of us as channel users to make sure we're matching with similar players.
Yet, the channel has interest and can provide an excellent diversion for those of us who will only ever play PvP casually as well as providing a training ground for up-and-comers who are yet to gain all their top-tier equipment.
I'd therefore suggest that if we're clear in any posts about what type of matches we're after and what our equipment is, the channel will be a great success, for example:
- Exp ROM PvPer LF serious escort T4 match
- Learner KDF PvPer LF T3 match
- Casual FED SCI PvPer LF T2 match
gives everyone a clear indication of what they're getting into. What does everyone think of this as a suggestion?can someone post the RULES again.. . I will reposted it in our Forum for more players to join VpvP.
Thank you.
greetings
*** R.I.P. ***
. .
But here's the thing. The way the gear ranking system works is tat the level banding overlaps between two mark levels.
For example a Tetryon Pulse Generator Mk-X does the following bonus to tetryon damage per quality band:
Common: +20.6%
Uncommon: +22.5%
Rare: +24.4%
Very Rare: +26.2%
Now, compare that to Mk-XI stats:
Common: +22.5%
Uncommon: +24.4%
Rare: +26.2%
Very Rare: +28.1%
One can easily see that a Mk-XI blue console is the equivalent of a Mk-X purple console. Now, I haven't checked *every* console in the game but based on my time here this seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
This leads into the next part of the question: Episode Replay. Most of the gear that is obtainable through Mission Replay grants Mk-XI blue quality gear when a player is level 50.
So, if the goal for VPvP is to encourage ease of access for all players, shouldn't the gear level be capped at Mk-XI blue?
It's the same thing as Mk-X purple after all. And you don't have to scour the exchange or go to the dilithium vending machines on K-7/Gandala to get it.
Wouldn't that be the best solution to allow people the easiest access to the most ready-to-play gear?
Thanks for listening.
There are some discussions about hauling out our old T2, T3 and T4 ships to have some fun PvP matches in those, and some of us have c-store ship access for that. It's cheaper than buying those levels' ships using dilithium.
Yes, it's vanilla PvP meaning the ships and equipment is basic. This also means it's more accessible to everyone including newly-minted Level 50s with hardly any gear (or ec to buy it), casual players with our focus on the other activities in STO, as well as serious PvP players looking for a new challenge. The issue of making sure we all get some fun and challenge out of matches was the reason I suggested a few posts up about being clear about what we're after in the "Looking for..." posts in channel. It would be quite easy to, for example, have my Romulan break out the old T3 Valdore to go up against a learner's T4... I don't mind being cannon fodder if it helps a newer player with their technique, on their way through to better and better PvP gameplay
Any decision in terms of ships and equipment needs to keep the channel's underlying principle in mind. Getting T5 ships in there starts to skirt dangerously close to the "race to the top" again. Again, easily fixed with my "Looking for" channel posting suggestion but something to keep in mind.
I think it's important that the channel develops as an inclusive place for PvP which means that we need to be careful to go into it with the general spirit of it being the channel for fun, inclusive, and 'no hassles' PvP... and as separate to, and distinct from, the 'heavy duty' (or however anyone wants to put it) PvP options already available.
Telling someone you're chatting with who's unsure if PvP is for them that VPvP is an option for them because it's fun, inclusive and someone should be able to match with them is a lot less daunting than having to lead that intro with a bunch of technical specs.
I agree that this is a great opportunity to form further bonds in the STO community, and particularly between people with different primary interests and focuses in the game. But for this to work, we will all have to be open to what we are each looking for and respecting each other's needs, interests, and boundaries. By doing so, VPvP will achieve its potential.
I agree for base equipment, but there's some unique storyline gear out there which MXI would arguably be an issue. Also, allowing for up to MKXI blues would be cheaper as far as exchange purchases in addition to storyline runs.
Regarding the ship tiers keep in mind that there's boosts to ships' effectiveness as they go up in Tiers. This w/xtra boff and console would probably make base T5 and mirror ships of that tier more balanced.
Edit: Unless my eyes missed it there isn't a rule to ban storyline sets, eg Jem and Breen. Is this intended? Also, since Borg gear is rep now I assume it's all banned now? May want to make that clarification since older players would have picked up some pieces as drops (eg Borg Weapons).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think that even moving forward this has potential for many new players to get some PVP in before hitting the obvious cluster**** that will be level 60
Unless of course you guys start doing T5 ships. Wouldn't want to be a spoilsport.
I gota say mate no one has volunteered to test this with me- likely as they know a console and boff slot is a big difference- thats like saying ah a mirror patrol isnt underpowered beside a fleet patrol and they have same boff layout or in current t5u wont b underpowered beside t6/t6 fleet again im open to test this withanyone with a cstore defiant
It'll be tested in due course, but you are neglecting to consider the restrictions VPvP imposes that reduce just how much the gap is worth.
I completely get what you're saying here. The same question crossed my mind w/ the Jem and Breen sets and also level-less items like the Tractor Mines and the Obelisk Warp Core.
I fully get that somewhere the line has to be drawn between accessibility and the need to keep this basic and balanced. If I had to choose between the two I'm very happy to have more restrictions rather than less. I'm quite satisfied with the way it's working so far.
Maybe now that we can fully eliminate Rep powers from the mix it will have more success. I've got my fingers crossed.
We are considering both options, personally I think that when delta comes around t5/mirror would be ok as long as opponents are clearly warned
I've been awake for about 16 hours, so we can work out the details tomorrow.
http://hilbertguide.com/classic.html
There are some things in there I don't really like, so I'm sticking with the list we have now (the list is subject to change).
The primary differences are probably things that aren't covered by ClassicPVP rules because they weren't possible then (things regarding reputation passives and traits, newer mirror ships, warp cores or the tricobalt mine ban which was relevant then but is obsolete now) and the decision of ClassicPVP to allow preorder items like the Red Matter Capacitor.
Whether to restrict to a certain Mk level or not will become more relevant with the level cap increase because that might raise mission replay items to levels even beyond Mk11 blue, so one has to find a balance between availability and power. I tend to support the VPvP idea of capping Mks either at Mk X or Mk XI.
I think if one updated the ClassicPVP rules to accommodate the changed game, it would pretty much only differ from a T5 VPvP ruleset by its stance on preorder items.