gregkane - we cannot actually reduce the grind requirements that much lower. We simply cant unless we go for a spec series, and those aren't that good.
We have gone from builds requiring vast amounts of resources that realistically, is borderline levels a F2Per couldn't actually ever achieve to requiring a few million EC at most and keeping the ships you picked up while levelling. See my post on page 5.
I think everyone knows PvP needs to remain accessible to casuals and newbies, and this is as accessible for everyone as it can be made and still count as PvP in its fullest sense.
As i said i agree- but a few million ec PLUS 1500 zen who wants to fly a 80k dil ship that will b a console and boff slot down so the free one u got will b underusable- i didnt suggest usin fleet or lockbox i sugested the free 9 console ships or mirror so all u pay is 200k ec- big difference between that and 1500 zen, ik lhcky i have 2 ships i can use other pple may not and it could put them off - 1500 zen is quite alot for a non endgame ship
Yes, 200k EC is cheaper than 1500 Zen. But simply keeping the ships you got while levelling is free, and just as competitive as the C-Store options.
Skill, timing, and knowledge count for far more in STO than the gap between T4 and C-Store T4, especially under the restrictions we play under here, which massively reduces how much that gap is worth. A basic levelling ship stands as fair a chance under our rules as a C-Store ship. They really do.
I have two fleetmates. Both fly Scimitars. One guy gets 30k+ DPS, (on a PvP DHC set up) the other guy gets 3k DPS. Same ship, same potential. Different skill, timing and knowledge makes all the difference.
Although as a fed sci/healer I really support the idea of mirror ships. Not much that can be used as a healer on the T4 options (aside fromt he falaxy ewww).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]-32nd Vipers- PvP Team
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
I am not interested in the direction endgame is going at all, so I had an idea of keeping some of my characters below level 60 to stay in the lower level queues, and possibly making a new level 40 that would stay in the 40-49 queues, but this channel might be another alternative. If its active enough I might not need lower level characters to have spam free pvp.
Not playing much now but maybe this weekend or next week I could try it.
Yes, 200k EC is cheaper than 1500 Zen. But simply keeping the ships you got while levelling is free, and just as competitive as the C-Store options.
Skill, timing, and knowledge count for far more in STO than the gap between T4 and C-Store T4, especially under the restrictions we play under here, which massively reduces how much that gap is worth. A basic levelling ship stands as fair a chance under our rules as a C-Store ship. They really do.
I have two fleetmates. Both fly Scimitars. One guy gets 30k+ DPS, (on a PvP DHC set up) the other guy gets 3k DPS. Same ship, same potential. Different skill, timing and knowledge makes all the difference.
Im in ill be settin up a sci healer and an escort tonight but i disagree that an extra console and an extra boff make no difference u put me and any other similar skilled pilot in defiants- one of each- the cstore will win- it will b tankier and put out more damage- simple fact bud- yes the dil one will b fun but the csptre 100% has the advantage, also how many pple kept their capitan levelling ship?? Damn sure i didnt lol i habe the galaxy for ams and a kdf bop luckily enough
The idea behind allowing c-store ships is to avoid the problem of requiring endgame players from spending dilithium to re-purchase 'free' ships that we've discarded, on the proviso we do not include the free consoles from these ships. Ultimately it's meant to be a fun channel rather than a serious, "win at all costs" PvP battle so I'd be happy to do some matches in the Venture I set up for this against a Rear-Admiral ship, even though I don't expect to win as someone who's seldom done any PvP... it's about whether as a group we're having fun
I get that mate i agree with all both you guys have said- my point is just not everyone has a cstore captian level ship and therefore 80k dil to buy a ship not as good as someone who has 1500 zen or 277k dil spare whereas mirror/rear admiral all have 9 consoles and same amount of boff slots so there is no "split-level" between people who have the dil/zen and do not- a mirror ship is 200k ec for the fed versions of escort/sci/engie damn ive about 15 in trh fleet bank ill give to anyone who cant afford 200k but ill follow rules- was just an idea to have a cpmplete level playing field
That's the thing - it doesn't actually work out that way.
You might expect a C-Store ship to beat a basic ship, but it doesn't work like that. Especially not in the Defiant's case where the C-Store option only gains engineering stuff, so one extra ET or EPTX/an extra Neutronium Alloy or RCS really. It isn't a match winning advantage.
Now some ships are C-Store is clearly better than base, T4 C-Store D'deridex vs levelling T4 D'deridex, but for a Defiant there really isn't a lot in it.
There is also the boff slot, an extra neut or rcs can make a massive difference- the speed n tankiness is why a bug has been the pinacle of escorts for so long if ubtake it to basics a defiant with more resist/turn PLUS an extra boff sorry but i have to say thays a big difference ill gladly pay 80k dil and test it against anyone with a cstore one- ill also do a normal t5.5 escort of the persons choice 1v1 first to see the difference in skill so that can be factored in
So, just to confirm - the gear limit is Mark-Ten, yes?
Just wanted to check before I started doing episode replay missions. Most of the gear there is going to be Mk-XI in either green or blue.
Also just wanted to double-check: Standard ship level is T-4 (Captain) but we could use T-5 (Rear Admiral) if agreed to before hand, correct? Just wanted to check before so I know if i I need to pick up a Pach or a Mirror Qin.
So, just to confirm - the gear limit is Mark-Ten, yes?
Just wanted to check before I started doing episode replay missions. Most of the gear there is going to be Mk-XI in either green or blue.
Also just wanted to double-check: Standard ship level is T-4 (Captain) but we could use T-5 (Rear Admiral) if agreed to before hand, correct? Just wanted to check before so I know if i I need to pick up a Pach or a Mirror Qin.
Yes to all, and yes, Mission rewards will default to Mk XI for a level 50 character. Mk XI of course, wont be allowed, as it is too costly to use - a single Mk XI weapon can cost more than an entire build of Mk X.
There is also the boff slot, an extra neut or rcs can make a massive difference- the speed n tankiness is why a bug has been the pinacle of escorts for so long if ubtake it to basics a defiant with more resist/turn PLUS an extra boff sorry but i have to say thays a big difference ill gladly pay 80k dil and test it against anyone with a cstore one- ill also do a normal t5.5 escort of the persons choice 1v1 first to see the difference in skill so that can be factored in
It really isn't - you'll see once you find a taker for your test. I cant do it as I lack a Defiant of any sort...
Just because something is better on a spec sheet, doesn't mean it will be better in practice.
Engineering consoles suffer badly from diminishing returns, so every additional RCS or Neutronium doesn't make as much difference, and a point is reachable where it has no effect if you add another, especially if you are using other stuff to passively boost resists as well.
There is a reason why in normal PvP and top end PvE engineering consoles are sacrificed first for universal consoles and not Sci or Tac consoles.
Man, I hope this takes off. This is my "last, best hope" for STO PvP.
I know stuff like this has been tried before. Hopefully now that you can disable all the reputation powers that it will be more accessible and balanced than before.
When I tried a similar setup for my fleet to do internally, we found that shield tanking and resists were just too strong for common Mk-X weapons. It was just a slug-fest with everyone not doing near enough damage to make a dent in anything.
Man, I hope this takes off. This is my "last, best hope" for STO PvP.
I know stuff like this has been tried before. Hopefully now that you can disable all the reputation powers that it will be more accessible and balanced than before.
When I tried a similar setup for my fleet to do internally, we found that shield tanking and resists were just too strong for common Mk-X weapons. It was just a slug-fest with everyone not doing near enough damage to make a dent in anything.
Has anyone found this to be the case yet?
tbh we have mostly been buying MK X rares/very rares, since they are so cheap (although finding ones without crafting mods is getting harder)
its not a problem that i have encountered as of yet, also we have jevonite and nimbus pirates banned. If we do find this to be the case we can start by banning the subspace modulator and working from there
I believe the consoles in the hallway right outside the shipyard on K7 have many Mk X purple items for sale.
It's still there.
That's where I originally purchased my Mk X Covariant shield array Cap x3 many years ago for ~50 Emblems (way different currency system before PWE took over).
I believe the consoles in the hallway right outside the shipyard on K7 have many Mk X purple items for sale.
It's still there.
That's where I originally purchased my Mk X Covariant shield array Cap x3 many years ago for ~50 Emblems (way different currency system before PWE took over).
The Mk-X purple equipment vending machine is still on Gandala as well.
We should probably extend it to "nothing beyond MK XII" when DR hits.
Trouble with that is it would cripple one of the best aspects of the whole thing, cheapness to do.
One of the major problems of PvP is how crippling the cost is, and allowing Mk XII will multiply per item costs by perhaps up to ten or twenty times in some cases - we've already seen costs of Mk X VR items double or triple in some cases since this thread started.
Item costs may well come down once DR comes along, but I doubt Mk XII will go down to where Mk X is now.
Excellent idea, count me in, I've already got a build in mind for this. Thankfully I've got a few t4 C-store ships sitting around from when Cryptic gave them away for free. (In addition to those I bought for the skin unlocks, knew they would come in handy one day.)
So with no universal consoles, no rep passives, no boffs with operative, this mean that maximum crit chance and crit severity all will have is 2.5% ch and 50% sv?
So with no universal consoles, no rep passives, no boffs with operative, this mean that maximum crit chance and crit severity all will have is 2.5% ch and 50% sv?
Alright, I'm curious. What's the ruling on hybrid/special weapons such as Phased Tetryon or Polarized Disruptor?
Most of these can be gotten at Mk X, and the extra Proc replaces a [Mod], so I'd assume they'd be okay, but I wanted to make sure before I go hunting on the Exchange for them.
Comments
i hear that, im using vanilla T4 as well
We have gone from builds requiring vast amounts of resources that realistically, is borderline levels a F2Per couldn't actually ever achieve to requiring a few million EC at most and keeping the ships you picked up while levelling. See my post on page 5.
I think everyone knows PvP needs to remain accessible to casuals and newbies, and this is as accessible for everyone as it can be made and still count as PvP in its fullest sense.
Skill, timing, and knowledge count for far more in STO than the gap between T4 and C-Store T4, especially under the restrictions we play under here, which massively reduces how much that gap is worth. A basic levelling ship stands as fair a chance under our rules as a C-Store ship. They really do.
I have two fleetmates. Both fly Scimitars. One guy gets 30k+ DPS, (on a PvP DHC set up) the other guy gets 3k DPS. Same ship, same potential. Different skill, timing and knowledge makes all the difference.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=ussaeneasvpvp_0
Looking forward to seeing what happens!
@alejogcl
Although as a fed sci/healer I really support the idea of mirror ships. Not much that can be used as a healer on the T4 options (aside fromt he falaxy ewww).
Nothing is impossible to him who would try.... except getting cryptic to care about pvp.
Not playing much now but maybe this weekend or next week I could try it.
Im in ill be settin up a sci healer and an escort tonight but i disagree that an extra console and an extra boff make no difference u put me and any other similar skilled pilot in defiants- one of each- the cstore will win- it will b tankier and put out more damage- simple fact bud- yes the dil one will b fun but the csptre 100% has the advantage, also how many pple kept their capitan levelling ship?? Damn sure i didnt lol i habe the galaxy for ams and a kdf bop luckily enough
You might expect a C-Store ship to beat a basic ship, but it doesn't work like that. Especially not in the Defiant's case where the C-Store option only gains engineering stuff, so one extra ET or EPTX/an extra Neutronium Alloy or RCS really. It isn't a match winning advantage.
Now some ships are C-Store is clearly better than base, T4 C-Store D'deridex vs levelling T4 D'deridex, but for a Defiant there really isn't a lot in it.
Just wanted to check before I started doing episode replay missions. Most of the gear there is going to be Mk-XI in either green or blue.
Also just wanted to double-check: Standard ship level is T-4 (Captain) but we could use T-5 (Rear Admiral) if agreed to before hand, correct? Just wanted to check before so I know if i I need to pick up a Pach or a Mirror Qin.
Yes to all, and yes, Mission rewards will default to Mk XI for a level 50 character. Mk XI of course, wont be allowed, as it is too costly to use - a single Mk XI weapon can cost more than an entire build of Mk X.
It really isn't - you'll see once you find a taker for your test.
Just because something is better on a spec sheet, doesn't mean it will be better in practice.
Engineering consoles suffer badly from diminishing returns, so every additional RCS or Neutronium doesn't make as much difference, and a point is reachable where it has no effect if you add another, especially if you are using other stuff to passively boost resists as well.
There is a reason why in normal PvP and top end PvE engineering consoles are sacrificed first for universal consoles and not Sci or Tac consoles.
I know stuff like this has been tried before. Hopefully now that you can disable all the reputation powers that it will be more accessible and balanced than before.
When I tried a similar setup for my fleet to do internally, we found that shield tanking and resists were just too strong for common Mk-X weapons. It was just a slug-fest with everyone not doing near enough damage to make a dent in anything.
Has anyone found this to be the case yet?
tbh we have mostly been buying MK X rares/very rares, since they are so cheap (although finding ones without crafting mods is getting harder)
its not a problem that i have encountered as of yet, also we have jevonite and nimbus pirates banned. If we do find this to be the case we can start by banning the subspace modulator and working from there
this is good info, thnx
great to hear! someone will invite you ASAP
The Mk-X purple equipment vending machine is still on Gandala as well.
greetings
*** R.I.P. ***
We should probably extend it to "nothing beyond MK XII" when DR hits.
looking forward to join!
Trouble with that is it would cripple one of the best aspects of the whole thing, cheapness to do.
One of the major problems of PvP is how crippling the cost is, and allowing Mk XII will multiply per item costs by perhaps up to ten or twenty times in some cases - we've already seen costs of Mk X VR items double or triple in some cases since this thread started.
Item costs may well come down once DR comes along, but I doubt Mk XII will go down to where Mk X is now.
@handle is @caasicam.
...or, rather was and now can be again since we can drop all the rep powers.
I'm a believer.
Ballpark figures pretty much.
Most of these can be gotten at Mk X, and the extra Proc replaces a [Mod], so I'd assume they'd be okay, but I wanted to make sure before I go hunting on the Exchange for them.