Depends on the freedom imbued. What would the freedom imply? What consequences would there be? Not every freedom is on the same level.
Also, IMHO the customization in Champions, at least where costumes are concerned, is sooo awesome. Sure, there might be an objectionable thing or two, but so what? It's a game. Ignore it and have fun. Besides, what if that player is doing it to troll? Any reaction to them would be feeding them.
Anyway, I just disagree that anyone should be concerned with how they express themselves, good or bad, unless that expression actually harms someone else with said expression.
Here is something that could end STO.
Childish looking character + risian swimsuit + one mis tell to local = STO is now in the crosshairs of Capital Hill and the life of STO could end.
Pretty sure this could never happen but I like looking at the worst thing that could happen. It is nice when it does not happen and it if does I'm ready to handle it somewhat.
Childish looking character + risian swimsuit + one mis tell to local = STO is now in the crosshairs of Capital Hill and the life of STO could end.
Pretty sure this could never happen but I like looking at the worst thing that could happen. It is nice when it does not happen and it if does I'm ready to handle it somewhat.
Yes, that situation is possible. But it would be a misunderstanding at best, and it doesn't have anything to do with this topic. Again, not every freedom is on the same level. Even though I see nothing wrong with that situation, I recognize that people who have the power to shut an MMO down do, and that would be a good justification to urge people not to do that. I do believe that freedom of speech and expression is a very good moral guideline, but recognizing that your actions could harm others and restricting yourself accordingly is a good idea.
But again, nothing to do with this thread. Anything I'm suggestion in the OP of this thread? It would not end STO. It's completely harmless. And to honor freedom of speech and expression, expressing oneself in the way that the individual chooses is more important than the possibility that it may offend a few people if they see it.
There are many things that I'd rather not see in STO, and I do see them regularly. But I respect my fellow players' choice to express themselves in that manner, and I would support their right to do so. After all, it might be my turn to wish to express myself in a new way, and I'd want support from them. Fair's fair.
Yes, that situation is possible. But it would be a misunderstanding at best, and it doesn't have anything to do with this topic. Again, not every freedom is on the same level. Even though I see nothing wrong with that situation, I recognize that people who have the power to shut an MMO down do, and that would be a good justification to urge people not to do that. I do believe that freedom of speech and expression is a very good moral guideline, but recognizing that your actions could harm others and restricting yourself accordingly is a good idea.
But again, nothing to do with this thread. Anything I'm suggestion in the OP of this thread? It would not end STO. It's completely harmless. And to honor freedom of speech and expression, expressing oneself in the way that the individual chooses is more important than the possibility that it may offend a few people if they see it.
There are many things that I'd rather not see in STO, and I do see them regularly. But I respect my fellow players' choice to express themselves in that manner, and I would support their right to do so. After all, it might be my turn to wish to express myself in a new way, and I'd want support from them. Fair's fair.
I was getting some what off topic so lets get back on that. I think some hair cuts should become unisex. Everything else?
Cryptic doing everything could be seen as making a social statement. Not 100% that Cryptic should risk that level of heat.
Being seen as doing X and actually doing X is completely different. Also, what "heat" are you talking about?
(not trying to pick apart everything you say, all of my questions come from genuine curiosity no hostility here if you're concerned)
This kind of leads into some ugly topic that happening in the indie gaming scene, yeah I know Cryptic is not indie but social issues right now is even bigger than normal. If I'm reading this right the idea behind this thread would allow easier non-binary characters then almost any other MMO.
Not saying that is wrong. What I'm mostly trying to say doing that could turn STO forums, twitter, reddit, and other forms of social media into warzones and I'm not talking about the normal crazy that happens any time the devs change a 1 around. The worst case is a bunch of people how have never played a Star Trek game before come on to STO's social media and the game takes backseat to a fight that I'm pretty sure no one wanted.
Sometimes I TRIBBLE up typing stuff so having someone to pick what I say over is nice. It is nothing.
This kind of leads into some ugly topic that happening in the indie gaming scene, yeah I know Cryptic is not indie but social issues right now is even bigger than normal. If I'm reading this right the idea behind this thread would allow easier non-binary characters then almost any other MMO.
Something happening with Indie gaming, eh? I'm interested. I see a lot of political drama involving gaming any more, and I'd like to learn more about it.
Not saying that is wrong. What I'm mostly trying to say doing that could turn STO forums, twitter, reddit, and other forms of social media into warzones and I'm not talking about the normal crazy that happens any time the devs change a 1 around. The worst case is a bunch of people how have never played a Star Trek game before come on to STO's social media and the game takes backseat to a fight that I'm pretty sure no one wanted.
Sooo you're saying we should avoid it because of fear of too much drama...? No thanks. I'll stand by my suggestions.
Besides, even if our human characters stick with "the binary"(I thought that only applied to sexes, rather than genders), what about alien species? Surely every one of them wouldn't be THAT culturally similar to us.
Something happening with Indie gaming, eh? I'm interested. I see a lot of political drama involving gaming any more, and I'd like to learn more about it.
Drop me a PM if you can spare the time. =D
Sooo you're saying we should avoid it because of fear of too much drama...? No thanks. I'll stand by my suggestions.
Besides, even if our human characters stick with "the binary"(I thought that only applied to sexes, rather than genders), what about alien species? Surely every one of them wouldn't be THAT culturally similar to us.
Okay then. as long as it's cool.
I will toss you a few links that will cover the whole deal with the indie scene after I type this up.
I remember what you said about it being just a game. If this happens that no longer becomes the case. STO is now a force leading the charge for social change. There is a joke about leaders for social change. They don't have an easy or long life.
And about alien species? There is a reason why they did not try it wide spread any of the shows or movies. No one wants to deal with that kind of heat.
Yes I know I'm starting to sound like a coward for wanting Cryptic to take the easy road but don't think I'm against the idea. If my female characters can get a suit out of this I would call this a win for everyone but I will still think turning STO into tool of social change (even if that was not the goal) is insanely risky idea,
I will toss you a few links that will cover the whole deal with the indie scene after I type this up.
I remember what you said about it being just a game. If this happens that no longer becomes the case. STO is now a force leading the charge for social change. There is a joke about leaders for social change. They don't have an easy or long life.
So where did you get "If this happens that no longer becomes the case" from? Before this it was only a game, and after this, it will probably still only be a game. As far as I can see, it will not in any way be "a force leading the charge for social change", it will merely be a game that features something that usually doesn't get featured in games. And there's nothing wrong with that.
I don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this. It's not.
And about alien species? There is a reason why they did not try it wide spread any of the shows or movies. No one wants to deal with that kind of heat.
What kind of heat? There isn't a big issue here. Any "heat" it would get is unreasonable and unjustified, therefore should be met with the same way we deal with any other irrationality.
Yes I know I'm starting to sound like a coward for wanting Cryptic to take the easy road but don't think I'm against the idea. If my female characters can get a suit out of this I would call this a win for everyone but I will still think turning STO into tool of social change (even if that was not the goal) is insanely risky idea,
I'm not wanting STO to be a "tool of social change". This has nothing to do with IRL social issues. This is just something in a game. Unless you can demonstrate a good reason why any of us should care about what anyone else thinks of it, I have no reason to believe these claims.
THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTION FOR A VIDEO GAME. NOTHING MORE.
Just because something bad can happen (in a videogame or elsewhere) does not mean that it will happen.
Can it even happen though? Let's look at an example of a country that actually has what happens when media gets a few elements that the country's culture doesn't feature: Japan.
Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Japanese culture knows that they're pretty conservative in dress, behavior and role. But not necessarily their fictional characters. There are many examples of Japanese characters in mediums such as anime that do not follow the standard cultural norm. Here are a few I randomly found.
These characters, for one reason or another dress in clothing traditionally reserved for individuals of the opposite sex. Now does that effect their culture? Does it encourage Japanese boys and girls to take up such practices? No it doesn't, and no they don't. At least not to a noticeable degree. Has it even ever been considered a "tool of social change" there? Definitely not.
It's just a form of media expression. You know, fantasy. Isn't that the point of fantasy, after all? The potential to explore what isn't necessarily reality?
Again, this isn't as big of a deal as you all are making it out to be.
We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation. Obviously, some hairdos should be unlocked for more species and/or genders. In some of the cases items simply weren't set up properly. In others, the thinking behind them was arguably too restrictive. We'll also consider the make-up and stances though we won't unlock everything to both genders.
As an MMO, a goal of ours is quickly tell a visual story and that often requires oversimplification - essentially a caricature of real life. That's why the strongest bad guys are often the biggest in our game. So the quick visual language is often Big=Tough. IRL that isn't always the case, but nuance the portrayal too much for the game and you run the risk of convoluting or distracting from the point.
Related and as mentioned here, there is a fairly extreme sexual dimorphism in STO. I'd argue it's also pretty prevalent in most of the Star Trek universe. People can argue about what does or doesn't make a gender (as has clearly been done on this thread so far :P), but for one, as an art direction, our goal is easily accessible, quickly interpreted characters. For another, there are some real technical limitations and time restraints for making some assets for both genders.
We do appreciate the feedback and there is good stuff here. The ability to gender swap your character is a great idea and absolutely worth looking into further.
That said, we reserve the right as the developers to make the rules...and we reserve the right to break them So of course you will see NPC's that mix and match anything and everything in order to make him/her/it unique. That doesn't mean that part or parts "work" and we should just unlock it. The recent winter hat is a perfect example of a snowball to avalanche of problems due to our two genders and many species. In other cases we simply don't want it unlocked due to art or design direction.
I'm not familiar with STO's foundry, but if it's like Neverwinter's, the good news is players can play the part of devs and you can "break all the rules" and mix and match parts for characters there if you like.
crypticjoejing: I may find heavy flaws in that logic, I do respect that it's your call which artistic path the game takes. I'm glad you took the time to respond here, and I thank you for at least considering some of my suggestions.
You can easily create a bald head (or short hair) female who looks like a man + pants + omg brawler stance... And male can not use at least long hair.
I think Allien should not have gender at all, and must have access to all (male\female) uniform and character customization parts.
I appreciate the support very much, but I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I'm not advocating specifically for either sex to be able to resemble one another(although I'm perfectly okay with that). It's more along the lines of uh... I'm wanting non-biological aspects of characters to be more nonrestrictive because they don't contribute to biological sexual dimorphism.
Childish looking character + risian swimsuit + one mis tell to local = STO is now in the crosshairs of Capital Hill and the life of STO could end.
Pretty sure this could never happen but I like looking at the worst thing that could happen. It is nice when it does not happen and it if does I'm ready to handle it somewhat.
It's already possible to make child looking characters in bikinis with huge TRIBBLE to sexualize them even more. So their tactic isn't working. But it is limiting us from making adult realistic females with small or very small TRIBBLE.
And that it is OK to sexualize women but not men is an injustice that doesn't belong in Star Trek.
With that said, there are plenty of hairs like the female black slicked version that would work perfect for a male, but just doesn't exist. But then we have all the alien species with forehead prosthetics, like Cardassian, Klingon, Denobulan etc that needs hairs with a higher hairline then currently exists in the game.
....Related and as mentioned here, there is a fairly extreme sexual dimorphism in STO...
Wish that wasn't the case. The recent model updates give a nicer range of variety, though & I hope that's the direction that's going to be an ongoing, continuous trend...
As not everyone likes the "typical" comics-book style, where males are ridiculously buff, muscles & females have big... 'assets' and are otherwise ridiculously small in comparison. That's why I play a sci-fi game, and not some other Hero-comics-book based games, after all.
Also, the trend of sexualizing females in the game... while also quite common in many other games... I don't think it belongs in Trek at all.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
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And that it is OK to sexualize women but not men is an injustice that doesn't belong in Star Trek.
In all seriousness, I agree to the sexism here. However, I'd prefer if everyone without exception could be as sexual/erotic/whatever or as non-sexual/-erotic/-whatever as they want.
I'm sure there are just as many who want post-Pon Farr ripped shirts with muscles hanging out of their male Vulcans as some want belly rings and cleavage for their Orion slavegirls.
Edit: That reminds me, we need a muscle slider. For both sexes.
We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation. Obviously, some hairdos should be unlocked for more species and/or genders. In some of the cases items simply weren't set up properly. In others, the thinking behind them was arguably too restrictive. We'll also consider the make-up and stances though we won't unlock everything to both genders.
As an MMO, a goal of ours is quickly tell a visual story and that often requires oversimplification - essentially a caricature of real life. That's why the strongest bad guys are often the biggest in our game. So the quick visual language is often Big=Tough. IRL that isn't always the case, but nuance the portrayal too much for the game and you run the risk of convoluting or distracting from the point.
Related and as mentioned here, there is a fairly extreme sexual dimorphism in STO. I'd argue it's also pretty prevalent in most of the Star Trek universe. People can argue about what does or doesn't make a gender (as has clearly been done on this thread so far :P), but for one, as an art direction, our goal is easily accessible, quickly interpreted characters. For another, there are some real technical limitations and time restraints for making some assets for both genders.
We do appreciate the feedback and there is good stuff here. The ability to gender swap your character is a great idea and absolutely worth looking into further.
That said, we reserve the right as the developers to make the rules...and we reserve the right to break them So of course you will see NPC's that mix and match anything and everything in order to make him/her/it unique. That doesn't mean that part or parts "work" and we should just unlock it. The recent winter hat is a perfect example of a snowball to avalanche of problems due to our two genders and many species. In other cases we simply don't want it unlocked due to art or design direction.
I'm not familiar with STO's foundry, but if it's like Neverwinter's, the good news is players can play the part of devs and you can "break all the rules" and mix and match parts for characters there if you like.
That's all well and good..........but hows about giving my male Romulans beards.
And yes, I would like some long hair options for males that don't make them look like they're ancient, balding, and have beer guts. I want to look like Dave Grohl!
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
I'm not familiar with STO's foundry, but if it's like Neverwinter's, the good news is players can play the part of devs and you can "break all the rules" and mix and match parts for characters there if you like.
We still have to work within the race/faction/gender confines, I think the only additional customization we get is a limited ability to mix off duty and regular.
An idea for a single costume pack that would balance a lot:
Gamemasters of Triskelion costume pack. This would include:
TOS top with black harness. (Worn by everyone in the episode.)
Male barechested with black harness. (Worn by Kirk.)
TOS skirt top with harness.
Maybe throw in a Mirror female top with harness as counterpart to the male barechested.
Complete barechested male as a uniform option. (Which balanced for a LOT of the female skin bearing options in uniform)
TOS Kirk Ripped shirt variants. (Male and female for balance.)
When looking at the Male Barechested uniform option (which I think is a "close enough" balance for the wide variety of female bikini tops):
Patterns of Force Kirk Barechested with shoulder and neck injuries.
Patterns of Force Spock Chest Chair
Game Masters of Triskelion Kirk chest scars.
The Naked Time Sulu sweaty fencing chest.
TOS Starfleet orange martial arts outfits, male and female (which Kirk wore barechested.)
This is leggings with a Starfleet delta on the hip and a gi. The basic assets are almost there. (Incidentally, this has a very Jedi/Luke Skywalker look which might help sell it.)
This is basically barechested with a couple of harness options.
Several injury patterns. A chest hair pattern.
Harness also fitted for TOS tops. (Should be at least silver and black based on the episode.)
A gi/tights which could be build starting from some existing pieces.
Battle damaged TOS tops.
Maybe a Mok'Bara outfit.
Maybe Tsunkatse tanktop modeled on Seven's
Maybe Tsunkatse Dwayne Johnson style harness and gloves..
Maybe additional facial scars
These all seem to fit together closely enough that one big pack would cover them and the inclusion of very Jedi-like possibilities with the Starfleet Martial Arts outfit. I might toss in barefoot for players who want to go full John McClane.
Think of it as a combination macho/Arnold/Bruce Willis/beefcake pack with many of the basic new features like the gi for women. Men going barechested in uniform would probably counterbalance a lot of the skimpy female options and was very common in TOS.
I think all of the above would work well as one big martial arts jumbo pack. You really rely on the mix of reasons people might buy it to sell it as one big pack. Maybe bundle in the existing melee weapons and sell for 1200 ZEN.
All this would bring balance in terms of exposure and types of options anyway. And would allow for beedcake to counter the cheesecake while also allowing for some John McClane/arnold/The Rock/shirtless Kirk/The 300 style rugged commando looks. The female additions would mainly just be the same gi/pants, the same chest scars (visible with existing skimpy female tops) and the chest harness. The additions to men could be taken as sexualized or macho. Whereas the pack's additions to women would be toughness emphasizing additions only for a change as a balance.
Would also like to see a bunch of the female haircuts ported to men. Many quite nearly work.
Maybe along with some of this, Romans (the alien race known as the Romans who looked like ancient Romans) and toga Lobi costume sets inspired by the TOS episode Bread and Circuses.
As an MMO, a goal of ours is quickly tell a visual story and that often requires oversimplification - essentially a caricature of real life. That's why the strongest bad guys are often the biggest in our game. So the quick visual language is often Big=Tough. IRL that isn't always the case, but nuance the portrayal too much for the game and you run the risk of convoluting or distracting from the point.
Actually, I think this has improved greatly with the Vaadwaur. You opted to have their gear denote their strength, rather than their size, which is pretty consistent across the board. Even Gaul looks...average next to his fellow Vaadwaur. It's a nice change of pace, contrast him with Hakeev (groan), who I consider one of the worst examples of the visual language you mentioned. I hope this trend continues, more gear = stronger makes so much more sense in-universe.
If size = strength in STO, we better keep the Pie Breen appeased.
I was thinking though. Star Trek is a kind of in a bad spot. It supposedly depicts a world after prejudice has faded out in favor of tolerance and acceptance, yet when it comes down to it, it can't properly do that very thing. Crypticjoejing solidly gave us his stance, and it's understandable, but it just doesn't fit Star Trek.
Looking back on ToS, Roddenberry's vision displayed even narrower than what's depicted on ENT, implying that the Star Trek timeline has a far higher level of tolerance and acceptance than what's depicted, yet it can't be displayed, and there is strong irony here, because our current culture isn't at that level of tolerance and acceptance yet.
We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation. Obviously, some hairdos should be unlocked for more species and/or genders. In some of the cases items simply weren't set up properly. In others, the thinking behind them was arguably too restrictive. We'll also consider the make-up and stances though we won't unlock everything to both genders.
Related and as mentioned here, there is a fairly extreme sexual dimorphism in STO. .
That said, we reserve the right as the developers to make the rules...and we reserve the right to break them .
So much for infinite diversity in infinite combinations. As developers, you have every liberty to be more open than the shows were. But let's go with your view (as much as I disagree with it) There's absolutely no reason for males not to have the option for long hair models -ponytails notwithstanding- nor for Romulan or Orion males not to have the options for facial hair. They're just recolored/VERY slightly modified human templates, so you can't say it's a tech issue.
There's also no reason for Romulan and Vulcan males not to have an option for eyeshadow makeup. It IS canon.
I can see how opening everything to everyone would be a technical problem, sure. Beards on a Benzite or Rigellian would probably clip/look weird. But you can definitely start by opening/improving things that not only ARE doable, but should've done quite a while ago. In 2015, males should at least have the freedom to have longer hair and FACIAL hair, for pity's sake.
As far as bigger = tougher... this really isn't Dungeons and Dragons. That could work for ships (though the Defiant and Bug Ships would beg to differ) but looks cartoonish in enemy NPCs. Case in point: Armek. So was he either a freakishly gigantic Klingon, or was cybernetically made huge by the Borg (inefficient)? By that logic, shouldn't the Borg Queen be at least twice as big as him?
Could we create long curly hair options for fed and rom females? That would make my rom sci hotter. And I want the odyssey open uniform from the season 7 launch art we see that vulcan admiral wearing, and make a odyssey skirt or make he academy skirt free
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
So much for infinite diversity in infinite combinations. As developers, you have every liberty to be more open than the shows were. But let's go with your view (as much as I disagree with it) There's absolutely no reason for males not to have the option for long hair models -ponytails notwithstanding- nor for Romulan or Orion males not to have the options for facial hair. They're just recolored/VERY slightly modified human templates, so you can't say it's a tech issue.
There's also no reason for Romulan and Vulcan males not to have an option for eyeshadow makeup. It IS canon.
I can see how opening everything to everyone would be a technical problem, sure. Beards on a Benzite or Rigellian would probably clip/look weird. But you can definitely start by opening/improving things that not only ARE doable, but should've done quite a while ago. In 2015, males should at least have the freedom to have longer hair and FACIAL hair, for pity's sake.
As far as bigger = tougher... this really isn't Dungeons and Dragons. That could work for ships (though the Defiant and Bug Ships would beg to differ) but looks cartoonish in enemy NPCs. Case in point: Armek. So was he either a freakishly gigantic Klingon, or was cybernetically made huge by the Borg (inefficient)? By that logic, shouldn't the Borg Queen be at least twice as big as him?
I'll repeat my first line again, "We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation." which very much is in line with the examples you've given. We want to make things available as appropriate to the Star Trek Universe.
On the second point, in general STO has to be a caricature, again for quick easy read. That said, I agree that many of our old characters *only* relied on size to make them seem tough. A 20 foot Klingon just doesn't make sense and should be made to look "tougher" with a combination of the other tools at our disposal: silhouette, color, fx, etc.
I'll repeat my first line again, "We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation." which very much is in line with the examples you've given. We want to make things available as appropriate to the Star Trek Universe.
On the second point, in general STO has to be a caricature, again for quick easy read. That said, I agree that many of our old characters *only* relied on size to make them seem tough. A 20 foot Klingon just doesn't make sense and should be made to look "tougher" with a combination of the other tools at our disposal: silhouette, color, fx, etc.
The real story is that PWE are homophobes and limit your options based on that.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Actually, I think this has improved greatly with the Vaadwaur. You opted to have their gear denote their strength, rather than their size, which is pretty consistent across the board. Even Gaul looks...average next to his fellow Vaadwaur. It's a nice change of pace, contrast him with Hakeev (groan), who I consider one of the worst examples of the visual language you mentioned. I hope this trend continues, more gear = stronger makes so much more sense in-universe.
If size = strength in STO, we better keep the Pie Breen appeased.
Actually I found that ridiculously oversized Jem hadar from the featured series far worst...
Also on ten subject... I kind of have the dream to swap gender (and race) in diffrent costume slots anyway...
But that's just me, especially since I have the habit of "recreating" my bride officers in diffrent costume slots to "fix" the in my opinion biggest of the many flaws of the game that has the captain (and worst, admiral) lead every away team.... But I'm always limited to same sex bos^^
I also agree and want what stoleviathan99 is suggesting. Most of all the last line "And the skant" that I would like to see not only in the original TNG Season 1 design but adapted for all the Cryptic uniforms as well as the DS9/VOY and DS9/Nemesis uniforms. But best of all for all uniforms available in game.
I was thinking though. Star Trek is a kind of in a bad spot. It supposedly depicts a world after prejudice has faded out in favor of tolerance and acceptance, yet when it comes down to it, it can't properly do that very thing. Crypticjoejing solidly gave us his stance, and it's understandable, but it just doesn't fit Star Trek.
Looking back on ToS, Roddenberry's vision displayed even narrower than what's depicted on ENT, implying that the Star Trek timeline has a far higher level of tolerance and acceptance than what's depicted, yet it can't be displayed, and there is strong irony here, because our current culture isn't at that level of tolerance and acceptance yet.
I would think that even though the mainstream society isn't evolved enough to handle tolerance and acceptance of all, I would think that Star Trek fans would subscribe to that notion in large numbers as it is after all part of Star Trek, which they love. Which in turn asks the question, who are Cryptic making this game for? The (insert religious scripture of your choice) thumping fundamentalist stuck in Victorian times or the fans of the series and movies?
On the second point, in general STO has to be a caricature, again for quick easy read...
I think many STO/Trek fans would disagree... they want a Trek game, not its' caricature with obviously comics-book styled art/style & limitations...
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
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Comments
Here is something that could end STO.
Childish looking character + risian swimsuit + one mis tell to local = STO is now in the crosshairs of Capital Hill and the life of STO could end.
Pretty sure this could never happen but I like looking at the worst thing that could happen. It is nice when it does not happen and it if does I'm ready to handle it somewhat.
But again, nothing to do with this thread. Anything I'm suggestion in the OP of this thread? It would not end STO. It's completely harmless. And to honor freedom of speech and expression, expressing oneself in the way that the individual chooses is more important than the possibility that it may offend a few people if they see it.
There are many things that I'd rather not see in STO, and I do see them regularly. But I respect my fellow players' choice to express themselves in that manner, and I would support their right to do so. After all, it might be my turn to wish to express myself in a new way, and I'd want support from them. Fair's fair.
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I was getting some what off topic so lets get back on that. I think some hair cuts should become unisex. Everything else?
Cryptic doing everything could be seen as making a social statement. Not 100% that Cryptic should risk that level of heat.
(not trying to pick apart everything you say, all of my questions come from genuine curiosity
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This kind of leads into some ugly topic that happening in the indie gaming scene, yeah I know Cryptic is not indie but social issues right now is even bigger than normal. If I'm reading this right the idea behind this thread would allow easier non-binary characters then almost any other MMO.
Not saying that is wrong. What I'm mostly trying to say doing that could turn STO forums, twitter, reddit, and other forms of social media into warzones and I'm not talking about the normal crazy that happens any time the devs change a 1 around. The worst case is a bunch of people how have never played a Star Trek game before come on to STO's social media and the game takes backseat to a fight that I'm pretty sure no one wanted.
Sometimes I TRIBBLE up typing stuff so having someone to pick what I say over is nice. It is nothing.
Drop me a PM if you can spare the time. =D
Sooo you're saying we should avoid it because of fear of too much drama...? No thanks. I'll stand by my suggestions.
Besides, even if our human characters stick with "the binary"(I thought that only applied to sexes, rather than genders), what about alien species? Surely every one of them wouldn't be THAT culturally similar to us.
Okay then.
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I will toss you a few links that will cover the whole deal with the indie scene after I type this up.
I remember what you said about it being just a game. If this happens that no longer becomes the case. STO is now a force leading the charge for social change. There is a joke about leaders for social change. They don't have an easy or long life.
And about alien species? There is a reason why they did not try it wide spread any of the shows or movies. No one wants to deal with that kind of heat.
Yes I know I'm starting to sound like a coward for wanting Cryptic to take the easy road but don't think I'm against the idea. If my female characters can get a suit out of this I would call this a win for everyone but I will still think turning STO into tool of social change (even if that was not the goal) is insanely risky idea,
I don't understand why you're making a big deal out of this. It's not.
What kind of heat? There isn't a big issue here. Any "heat" it would get is unreasonable and unjustified, therefore should be met with the same way we deal with any other irrationality.
I'm not wanting STO to be a "tool of social change". This has nothing to do with IRL social issues. This is just something in a game. Unless you can demonstrate a good reason why any of us should care about what anyone else thinks of it, I have no reason to believe these claims.
THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTION FOR A VIDEO GAME. NOTHING MORE.
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I'd say let us have the customization, but it has been asked for before and as ever nothing happens about it. More pointless restrictions.
Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Japanese culture knows that they're pretty conservative in dress, behavior and role. But not necessarily their fictional characters. There are many examples of Japanese characters in mediums such as anime that do not follow the standard cultural norm. Here are a few I randomly found.
(biologically male)
http://www.foroswebgratis.com/fotos/2/2/5/1/0//400003w4.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q130/iygirly_16/Kurama1klfdngjf.jpg
http://safebooru.org/images/252/099f4315d4bcaafe690cc3a90b6ce3d9849351ed.jpg
(biologically female)
http://blog-imgs-38-origin.fc2.com/k/i/r/kirasan/20_20101202210111s.jpg
http://dokurocafe.img.jugem.jp/20071030_268057.jpg
http://safebooru.org/images/608/3031c23ffc7cf0c25761588f0ae5ca85a9cf4784.jpg
These characters, for one reason or another dress in clothing traditionally reserved for individuals of the opposite sex. Now does that effect their culture? Does it encourage Japanese boys and girls to take up such practices? No it doesn't, and no they don't. At least not to a noticeable degree. Has it even ever been considered a "tool of social change" there? Definitely not.
It's just a form of media expression. You know, fantasy. Isn't that the point of fantasy, after all? The potential to explore what isn't necessarily reality?
Again, this isn't as big of a deal as you all are making it out to be.
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>:3
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You can easily create a bald head (or short hair) female who looks like a man + pants + omg brawler stance... And male can not use at least long hair.
I think Allien should not have gender at all, and must have access to all (male\female) uniform and character customization parts.
As an MMO, a goal of ours is quickly tell a visual story and that often requires oversimplification - essentially a caricature of real life. That's why the strongest bad guys are often the biggest in our game. So the quick visual language is often Big=Tough. IRL that isn't always the case, but nuance the portrayal too much for the game and you run the risk of convoluting or distracting from the point.
Related and as mentioned here, there is a fairly extreme sexual dimorphism in STO. I'd argue it's also pretty prevalent in most of the Star Trek universe. People can argue about what does or doesn't make a gender (as has clearly been done on this thread so far :P), but for one, as an art direction, our goal is easily accessible, quickly interpreted characters. For another, there are some real technical limitations and time restraints for making some assets for both genders.
We do appreciate the feedback and there is good stuff here. The ability to gender swap your character is a great idea and absolutely worth looking into further.
That said, we reserve the right as the developers to make the rules...and we reserve the right to break them
I'm not familiar with STO's foundry, but if it's like Neverwinter's, the good news is players can play the part of devs and you can "break all the rules" and mix and match parts for characters there if you like.
I appreciate the support very much, but I'm not sure we're on the same page here. I'm not advocating specifically for either sex to be able to resemble one another(although I'm perfectly okay with that). It's more along the lines of uh... I'm wanting non-biological aspects of characters to be more nonrestrictive because they don't contribute to biological sexual dimorphism.
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It's already possible to make child looking characters in bikinis with huge TRIBBLE to sexualize them even more. So their tactic isn't working. But it is limiting us from making adult realistic females with small or very small TRIBBLE.
And that it is OK to sexualize women but not men is an injustice that doesn't belong in Star Trek.
With that said, there are plenty of hairs like the female black slicked version that would work perfect for a male, but just doesn't exist. But then we have all the alien species with forehead prosthetics, like Cardassian, Klingon, Denobulan etc that needs hairs with a higher hairline then currently exists in the game.
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Wish that wasn't the case. The recent model updates give a nicer range of variety, though & I hope that's the direction that's going to be an ongoing, continuous trend...
As not everyone likes the "typical" comics-book style, where males are ridiculously buff, muscles & females have big... 'assets' and are otherwise ridiculously small in comparison. That's why I play a sci-fi game, and not some other Hero-comics-book based games, after all.
Also, the trend of sexualizing females in the game... while also quite common in many other games... I don't think it belongs in Trek at all.
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At least that's what I think you mean.
In all seriousness, I agree to the sexism here. However, I'd prefer if everyone without exception could be as sexual/erotic/whatever or as non-sexual/-erotic/-whatever as they want.
I'm sure there are just as many who want post-Pon Farr ripped shirts with muscles hanging out of their male Vulcans as some want belly rings and cleavage for their Orion slavegirls.
Edit: That reminds me, we need a muscle slider. For both sexes.
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That's all well and good..........but hows about giving my male Romulans beards.
And yes, I would like some long hair options for males that don't make them look like they're ancient, balding, and have beer guts. I want to look like Dave Grohl!
Let us upgrade the Seleya Ceremonial Lirpa and Kri'stak Blade
My character Tsin'xing
Gamemasters of Triskelion costume pack. This would include:
TOS top with black harness. (Worn by everyone in the episode.)
Male barechested with black harness. (Worn by Kirk.)
TOS skirt top with harness.
Maybe throw in a Mirror female top with harness as counterpart to the male barechested.
Complete barechested male as a uniform option. (Which balanced for a LOT of the female skin bearing options in uniform)
TOS Kirk Ripped shirt variants. (Male and female for balance.)
When looking at the Male Barechested uniform option (which I think is a "close enough" balance for the wide variety of female bikini tops):
Patterns of Force Kirk Barechested with shoulder and neck injuries.
Patterns of Force Spock Chest Chair
Game Masters of Triskelion Kirk chest scars.
The Naked Time Sulu sweaty fencing chest.
TOS Starfleet orange martial arts outfits, male and female (which Kirk wore barechested.)
This is leggings with a Starfleet delta on the hip and a gi. The basic assets are almost there. (Incidentally, this has a very Jedi/Luke Skywalker look which might help sell it.)
This is basically barechested with a couple of harness options.
Several injury patterns. A chest hair pattern.
Harness also fitted for TOS tops. (Should be at least silver and black based on the episode.)
A gi/tights which could be build starting from some existing pieces.
Battle damaged TOS tops.
Maybe a Mok'Bara outfit.
Maybe Tsunkatse tanktop modeled on Seven's
Maybe Tsunkatse Dwayne Johnson style harness and gloves..
Maybe additional facial scars
These all seem to fit together closely enough that one big pack would cover them and the inclusion of very Jedi-like possibilities with the Starfleet Martial Arts outfit. I might toss in barefoot for players who want to go full John McClane.
Think of it as a combination macho/Arnold/Bruce Willis/beefcake pack with many of the basic new features like the gi for women. Men going barechested in uniform would probably counterbalance a lot of the skimpy female options and was very common in TOS.
I think all of the above would work well as one big martial arts jumbo pack. You really rely on the mix of reasons people might buy it to sell it as one big pack. Maybe bundle in the existing melee weapons and sell for 1200 ZEN.
All this would bring balance in terms of exposure and types of options anyway. And would allow for beedcake to counter the cheesecake while also allowing for some John McClane/arnold/The Rock/shirtless Kirk/The 300 style rugged commando looks. The female additions would mainly just be the same gi/pants, the same chest scars (visible with existing skimpy female tops) and the chest harness. The additions to men could be taken as sexualized or macho. Whereas the pack's additions to women would be toughness emphasizing additions only for a change as a balance.
Would also like to see a bunch of the female haircuts ported to men. Many quite nearly work.
Maybe along with some of this, Romans (the alien race known as the Romans who looked like ancient Romans) and toga Lobi costume sets inspired by the TOS episode Bread and Circuses.
And the skant.
Actually, I think this has improved greatly with the Vaadwaur. You opted to have their gear denote their strength, rather than their size, which is pretty consistent across the board. Even Gaul looks...average next to his fellow Vaadwaur. It's a nice change of pace, contrast him with Hakeev (groan), who I consider one of the worst examples of the visual language you mentioned. I hope this trend continues, more gear = stronger makes so much more sense in-universe.
If size = strength in STO, we better keep the Pie Breen appeased.
I was thinking though. Star Trek is a kind of in a bad spot. It supposedly depicts a world after prejudice has faded out in favor of tolerance and acceptance, yet when it comes down to it, it can't properly do that very thing. Crypticjoejing solidly gave us his stance, and it's understandable, but it just doesn't fit Star Trek.
Looking back on ToS, Roddenberry's vision displayed even narrower than what's depicted on ENT, implying that the Star Trek timeline has a far higher level of tolerance and acceptance than what's depicted, yet it can't be displayed, and there is strong irony here, because our current culture isn't at that level of tolerance and acceptance yet.
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So much for infinite diversity in infinite combinations. As developers, you have every liberty to be more open than the shows were. But let's go with your view (as much as I disagree with it) There's absolutely no reason for males not to have the option for long hair models -ponytails notwithstanding- nor for Romulan or Orion males not to have the options for facial hair. They're just recolored/VERY slightly modified human templates, so you can't say it's a tech issue.
There's also no reason for Romulan and Vulcan males not to have an option for eyeshadow makeup. It IS canon.
I can see how opening everything to everyone would be a technical problem, sure. Beards on a Benzite or Rigellian would probably clip/look weird. But you can definitely start by opening/improving things that not only ARE doable, but should've done quite a while ago. In 2015, males should at least have the freedom to have longer hair and FACIAL hair, for pity's sake.
As far as bigger = tougher... this really isn't Dungeons and Dragons. That could work for ships (though the Defiant and Bug Ships would beg to differ) but looks cartoonish in enemy NPCs. Case in point: Armek. So was he either a freakishly gigantic Klingon, or was cybernetically made huge by the Borg (inefficient)? By that logic, shouldn't the Borg Queen be at least twice as big as him?
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
I'll repeat my first line again, "We are aware there are definitely some items that need re-evaluation." which very much is in line with the examples you've given. We want to make things available as appropriate to the Star Trek Universe.
On the second point, in general STO has to be a caricature, again for quick easy read. That said, I agree that many of our old characters *only* relied on size to make them seem tough. A 20 foot Klingon just doesn't make sense and should be made to look "tougher" with a combination of the other tools at our disposal: silhouette, color, fx, etc.
The real story is that PWE are homophobes and limit your options based on that.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Actually I found that ridiculously oversized Jem hadar from the featured series far worst...
Also on ten subject... I kind of have the dream to swap gender (and race) in diffrent costume slots anyway...
But that's just me, especially since I have the habit of "recreating" my bride officers in diffrent costume slots to "fix" the in my opinion biggest of the many flaws of the game that has the captain (and worst, admiral) lead every away team.... But I'm always limited to same sex bos^^
I can't make that assumption/accusation but they sure give that impression.
I also agree and want what stoleviathan99 is suggesting. Most of all the last line "And the skant" that I would like to see not only in the original TNG Season 1 design but adapted for all the Cryptic uniforms as well as the DS9/VOY and DS9/Nemesis uniforms. But best of all for all uniforms available in game.
I would think that even though the mainstream society isn't evolved enough to handle tolerance and acceptance of all, I would think that Star Trek fans would subscribe to that notion in large numbers as it is after all part of Star Trek, which they love. Which in turn asks the question, who are Cryptic making this game for? The (insert religious scripture of your choice) thumping fundamentalist stuck in Victorian times or the fans of the series and movies?
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