Humans(and by extension, most humanoid aliens) are sexually dimorphic enough that most of the time, it will be easy to tell the sex of someone you're interacting with just from a glance(or hearing their voice, but since this is about characters who never talk, that point is moot)
Sure, when you can actually see characters up close and listen to them speak. You can't do that in STO, so we have to rely on other attributes, like hair and body shape. Think of STO like a comic strip, where the characters have to be way, way simplified to be recognizable.
Here's the thing. Those traditions don't need to dissolve at all for the options to open up. There is a very real chance that in a setting like STO's in the distant future of Earth, traditions can be maintained by some, while it is still socially acceptable for others to stray from those traditions.
No one's trying to take those traditions away. We just don't want to be bound by them is all.
That's reasonable justification. I was taking issue more to the reasoning than the point itself.
Well, why your unwillingness to not care about what other person gender is or your unability to tell them apart, should be a factor in deciding if the female form is changed or not and why it should limit *others* from having more options?
Seriously, I have an issue with people, who'd force their standards on others, by restricting *others* from having an option. Sure, have your female characters as "feminine" as it gets, but don't force that on others. I want the female model to have the ability to not be as curvy, because guess what - when you wear an actual uniform, it actually covers a lot of parts.. unless you smuggle balloons or have oversized hips. And guess what, I don't make my character to appease others, but me, because it's *my* character and others have no right to tell me how my character should or shouldn't like.
PS: If you really need to identify someone's gender in STO and you reeeally care so much.. infocards. Use them. Your laziness shouldn't be a reason to limit others from having a choice.
Your writing is kind of difficult to follow, but I think I get the general idea.
...your unwillingness to not care about what other person gender...
How can I not care about someone's gender? It's a fundamental attribute, and informs many (but not all) of the behaviors I exhibit and anticipate receiving. It is responsible for physical and (through hormones if nothing else) behavioral differences. I can accept a wide range of appearances and behaviors as female, but my brain is wired to conceptualize living creatures as male or female. Does that somehow make me a bad person?
Well, why your unwillingness to not care about what other person gender is or your unability to tell them apart, should be a factor in deciding if the female form is changed or not and why it should limit *others* from having more options?
Seriously, I have an issue with people, who'd force their standards on others, by restricting *others* from having an option. Sure, have your female characters as "feminine" as it gets, but don't force that on others.
I'm not saying that I should be allowed to impose my whims. I'm merely voicing my opinion. The fact is, any given society chooses what is or is not appropriate behavior. I will yield that people have the right to depart from social norms to a degree, but I also hold that it's up to the society to decide what deviations it will or will not accept and, to a degree, impose these restrictions on others. For example, I see no reason why women should be required to wear dresses all the time, even though that was, at one time, a social norm. But I do hold that social norms forbidding, for example, murder, should be enforced. To say "I follow Sharia Law! I have an issue with your restricting me from stoning a woman who has committed adultery!" is not a valid defense in my opinion.
I am not equating your desire to have a male-like build with murder. I use that example only to illustrate a flaw I see in your reasoning.
You have your opinion, which you have expressed. I also have an opinion, which I have expressed. If you want to disagree and pick apart my reasoning, then you are welcome to do so. In fact, if you do a good job, I would appreciate your helping me gain a fuller understanding of reality. But I treated your wants and opinions with understanding and respect, even though I disagree, and I think it's reasonable to expect that you treat me similarly, rather then becoming angry and accusatory.
I also acknowledge your right do disagree with me. I do not accept your apparent desire to suppress my right to disagree with you. No good decision can come from suppressing conflicting opinions. If a society (in this case, Star Trek Online) is to make a good, informed decision about what social norms it will enforce and which ones it will be flexible on, conflicting opinions must be voiced. Yours and mine.
I also note that you ignored the caveats I mentioned. This is partially my fault for speaking awkwardly, but you have completely ignored the fact that I said I actually support some of the changes in build you request, as long as the body remains recognizably female at a distance, and that I support your desire to have the female undershirt.
Maybe this will help. Left barbie is what we have now. Right Barbie is what I want. She's still recognizably female, but a lot less... absurd.
And guess what, I don't make my character to appease others, but me, because it's *my* character and others have no right to tell me how my character should or shouldn't like.
On the subject of issues, I have an issue with people who want to act as if what they do does not affect other people. Unless you're living by yourself on some other planet, you do, all the time, with everything you do. Heck, your living on another planet and being absent from where everybody else has an effect. You have a right to make your own choices,but those choices must always be tempered by judgement about how they will affect other people. Having a flat chest or stocky build on a female game character is of little importance--that's not what I'm taking issue with in this paragraph. I think your reasoning both fundamentally flawed and very widespread, even though it is, in my opinion, harmful.
And finally, if I have misinterpreted any of your points, feel free to correct me.
Sure, when you can actually see characters up close and listen to them speak. You can't do that in STO, so we have to rely on other attributes, like hair and body shape. Think of STO like a comic strip, where the characters have to be way, way simplified to be recognizable.
I agree that body shape is a reliable way. But hair is not. Body shape is biological, hair style and length is completely cultural... understand the difference here?
How can I not care about someone's gender? It's a fundamental attribute, and informs many (but not all) of the behaviors I exhibit and anticipate receiving. It is responsible for physical and (through hormones if nothing else) behavioral differences. I can accept a wide range of appearances and behaviors as female, but my brain is wired to conceptualize living creatures as male or female. Does that somehow make me a bad person?
...and I stopped reading there and yes, it does make you a bad person in my eyes. Anyone expecting someone to behave in certain way because of their gender is just not worth talking to. We are individual beings, and nobody should hold us, our attitude, taste and stuff like that, based on what sex we were born with.
On the subject of issues, I have an issue with people who want to act as if what they do does not affect other people. Unless you're living by yourself on some other planet, you do, all the time, with everything you do. Heck, your living on another planet and being absent from where everybody else has an effect. You have a right to make your own choices,but those choices must always be tempered by judgement about how they will affect other people. Having a flat chest or stocky build on a female game character is of little importance--that's not what I'm taking issue with in this paragraph. I think your reasoning both fundamentally flawed and very widespread, even though it is, in my opinion, harmful.
Also, your entitlement on that anyone should take into consideration others, when making their characters in a game... nah. Done here. People like you are a reason, why labels based on genders still exist & why we simply can't move on and have nice variety of things.
The proof, how ridiculous things are, that orangeiitis made a simple request, wanting for no restriction on clothes/hair/whatsoever for both sexes, and people like you go all 'NOOO, DO NOT WANT, WE HAVE LABELS TO UPHOLD'! Geez.
Qapla', have a nice day, done here, severaly disgusted yet again.
PS: I've not ignored your notes about some changes, but I frankly don't want my female model to scream 'female' just to appease you or those similar to you, as it's my character, and nobody has right to tell me how she's supposed to look like. In real life, I get mistaken for a dude all the time, and I don't give a single damn. Just FYI.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
I agree that body shape is a reliable way. But hair is not. Body shape is biological, hair style and length is completely cultural... understand the difference here?
You're right. Sorry, I got your post tangled up with jodarkrider's in my head.
Anyone expecting someone to behave in certain way because of their gender is just not worth talking to. We are individual beings, and nobody should hold us, our attitude, taste and stuff like that, based on what sex we were born with.
That's not what I said. I didn't say I have expectations gender-based expectations about how people should behave? I said that I have gender-based expectations about how people will behave, and I alter my behaviors accordingly. My expectations are largely predictive, not judgmental.
The proof, how ridiculous things are, that orangeiitis made a simple request, wanting for no restriction on clothes/hair/whatsoever for both sexes, and people like you go all 'NOOO, DO NOT WANT, WE HAVE LABELS TO UPHOLD'! Geez.
Speaking of labels, I notice that you have slapped a huge one on me that says "NOOO, DO NOT WANT, WE HAVE LABELS TO UPHOLD!" You're lumping all of your opposition under the category of "unreasonable, judgmental, backwards-thinking people."
Also, your entitlement on that anyone should take into consideration others, when making their characters in a game... nah. Done here.
I specifically and explicitly that that paragraph wasn't really about the issue of female body shape/clothing/whatever. It's about a particular way of thinking that bothers me as much as my reluctance to give in fully to your desires seems to bother you.
Qapla', have a nice day, done here, severaly disgusted yet again.
Why? What good does it do to get disgusted and angry when trying to discuss something that's important to you? I'm trying really hard not to get disgusted and angry with you, because I don't want to shut you out like angry people tend to do, myself included. Why can't you do the same? And further, why get angry when I'm trying to be reasonable? I disagree with you, but my opinion is malleable. If you really want change so badly, then don't run away when someone says "no." Stay and discuss it. Reasonably, and as calmly as you can.
A real debate is a cooperative endeavor, not a competitive one. I'm not your enemy. You don't need to feel threatened or hurt by my opinion. If you disagree, convince me. Even if it doesn't work, I'm not going to demonize you.
PS: I've not ignored your notes about some changes, but I frankly don't want my female model to scream 'female' just to appease you or those similar to you, as it's my character, and nobody has right to tell me how she's supposed to look like. In real life, I get mistaken for a dude all the time, and I don't give a single damn. Just FYI.
That's not unreasonable. I still maintain my position, but I can understand where you're coming from.
My issue is not with your opinions, you can have them, as long as you don't force them on me or anyone else, but the fact that you'd prefer others not having a choice on less 'shaped' female body, just so you can recognize the gender easily. Guess what, in real life, that also is hard in some cases & you'd not go close up, just to stare at them, and make up your mind if they are male or female, as I did mention people mistake me with a dude all the time, and I don't give a single sh....
So what if you'd not be able to tell? The world wouldn't end, and more variety is better. Also, there are those effin infocards, which have 'gender' column, if you really care that much, as I said. That's all I really have to say on the issue, sir.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Um...er...females can experience baldness as well as concerns with facial hair. It's curious you'd make the request you did while making the exclusions that you did...
Especially when you throw aliens into the mix.
How do we know what is normal for Bolians or Trill in this regard? Or Orions for that matter. :P
Most people get over-defensive anytime you disagree with them on issues like this. Trust me, I know :P.
Well, yes, when someone's personal standards would be a reason to prevent others from having more choices, then there's a reason to be defensive. I also find it amazing, that you of all people critize people wanting more options, as you have this 20+ topic about more customization for cats - which I BTW support, because I feel more customization = better, even if I personally don't really care for cat-species, I still think that the luxury of more customization shouldn't be limited to just select few.
One would think you'd be perfectly fine for the same option for other people too. Smells like some horrible double-standard there. Just sayin'.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Well, yes, when someone's personal standards would be a reason to prevent others from having more choices, then there's a reason to be defensive. I also find it amazing, that you of all people critize people wanting more options, as you have this 20+ topic about more customization for cats - which I BTW support, because I feel more customization = better.
One would think you'd be perfectly fine for the same option for other people too. Smells like some horrible double-standard there. Just sayin'.
There's a difference between normal customization, and then a hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game.
There's a difference between normal customization, and then a hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game.
There's nothing political about NOT wanting females to be forced to be barbies. Seriously, get it out of your head. It's a long-standing gaming trope, that females are sexualized, and some people simply want it to change. Seriously...
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
There's nothing political about NOT wanting females to be forced to be barbies. Seriously, get it out of your head. It's a long-standing gaming trope, that females are sexualized, and some people simply want it to change. Seriously...
I'm not talking about barbies. Though I do agree the sexualization thing is just stupid.
I'm talking about the other sides of the spectrum.
I'm not talking about barbies. Though I do agree the sexualization thing is just stupid.
I'm talking about the other sides of the spectrum.
The issue needs to be spoken about, as it's not just STO who does this to female models; it's a long term problem of television and other media as well.
If someone wants to make a female character, which is hard to be told apart from a male model, it simply shouldn't be an issue. It's not even forcing anything on anyone - it's about having a choice. If someone wants to have a uber "feminine" body, let them, their choice and the option is there right now. But, as you said, the other side of spectrum. It should go both ways, my friend & it simply currently doesn't.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
The issue needs to be spoken about, as it's not just STO who does this to female models; it's a long term problem of television and other media as well.
If someone wants to make a female character, which is hard to be told apart from a male model, it simply shouldn't be an issue. It's not even forcing anything on anyone - it's about having a choice. If someone wants to have a uber "feminine" body, let them, their choice and the option is there right now. But, as you said, the other side of spectrum. It should go both ways, my friend & it simply currently doesn't.
If people really wanna see how bad the sexualization is...have them look up children characters like from the Lion King...Kung fu Panda..or anything like that....it's super bad..
Not to mention all the stupid stuff in the comic books. Why does every single heroine or villainess have to sexualized?
If people really wanna see how bad the sexualization is...have them look up children characters like from the Lion King...Kung fu Panda..or anything like that....it's super bad..
Not to mention all the stupid stuff in the comic books. Why does every single heroine or villainess have to sexualized?
Yes, well, don't get me started on comics and cartoons. Lol. I could write a long litany about it. But really, this is nothing about something political, this is more about offering people more options, so they can make characters the way they like... without having to resoet to use a male (or female model, if someone wants to make a 'feminine' male, when hair/clothes are considered) model.
Which, as I said, seriously considered, to use a male model for portraying my character, because the new facial textures don't have a stubble and it'd be easy for me to recreate my current character's look; but I've invested a lot of time into building my char's strength... Although.. admittedly, if they offered re-gender token, I'd still be sorely tempted...
And it's really sad, if you think about it; that you'd have to use a male model just because the female one is so limited.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
There's a difference between normal customization, and then a hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game.
Can you demonstrate that there's a "hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game" here? Because I'm not much for politics. And even if I was, I'm not one to try taking sides. I do not identify as either a Republican or a Democrat or any other politically-related title such a feminist. I try to understand everyone's views and try to remain skeptical and rational on every issue. I have no idea why you're asserting that there's some ulterior agenda here when there's not.
I'm not trying to be anyone's enemy here. I want to get along with everyone, and I want everyone to get along with each other. What I take offense to is when someone, say Person A wants to actively limit another Person B's choices because of Person A's personal beliefs. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's unjustified, and I'm gonna defend Person B. Even if I don't agree with Person B's choices.
Now do you have any reason to oppose my suggestion outside of your personal beliefs?
Can you demonstrate that there's a "hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game" here? Because I'm not much for politics. And even if I was, I'm not one to try taking sides. I do not identify as either a Republican or a Democrat or any other politically-related title such a feminist. I try to understand everyone's views and try to remain skeptical and rational on every issue. I have no idea why you're asserting that there's some ulterior agenda here when there's not.
I'm not trying to be anyone's enemy here. I want to get along with everyone, and I want everyone to get along with each other. What I take offense to is when someone, say Person A wants to actively limit another Person B's choices because of Person A's personal beliefs. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's unjustified, and I'm gonna defend Person B. Even if I don't agree with Person B's choices.
Now do you have any reason to oppose my suggestion outside of your personal beliefs?
The stances thing in particular is approaching an LGBT agenda. That's what I was trying to get at.
Come back after two years and everything is gone. My characters, accomplishments, ships, and even all my exclusive content is missing. I cannot create threads and customer service has yet to respond.
Searched the forums and haven't found a single issue related to missing content or wiped accounts.
If anyone is able to help I would greatly appreciate it.
I bought the game at lunch, played for 2-3 months, came back a year later for a couple months, then another year after that for a few months. And now...nothing...
The stances thing in particular is approaching an LGBT agenda. That's what I was trying to get at.
Why? Stances have nothing to do with LGBT agenda.
If someone proposed forcing a TRIBBLE BOFF onto you & your crew, that'd be pushing LGBT agenda. Some stances available for both sexes is hardly that.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
The agendas of any group is irrelevant. What problem do you have with the suggestion itself?
I do not support such a movement. I have friends who are LGBT. People who I have known my whole life. However, that does not mean I support what they do. I do not have any issues so long as it is kept private. However, such things like this would be breaking the barrier.
I do not support such a movement. I have friends who are LGBT. People who I have known my whole life. However, that does not mean I support what they do. I do not have any issues so long as it is kept private. However, such things like this would be breaking the barrier.
I don't consciously support ANY movement. So what? This isn't about that at all. It's just about suggesting options.
Bottom line here. I'm a free-thinker. If you wish for me to be convinced with your position, I'm more than willing to hear you out. But when you come in a thread and just tell everyone that you're against it because you're asserting an antagonistic agenda on my suggestion, we have a problem here. I'm not doing that.
This is just trying to open up options for people. Options that does not effect you at all, nor anyone who chooses not to use those options. This isn't the thing that people should keep private, because individual expression concerns the individual, not anyone else. This isn't a "barrier". It's simple, humane tolerance.
Now unless you explain a good reason to oppose this suggestion, all I'm seeing is that you wish to oppose options for other people just because of your own opinion. And I don't believe for a second that is justified.
I don't consciously support ANY movement. So what? This isn't about that at all. It's just about suggesting options.
Bottom line here. I'm a free-thinker. If you wish for me to be convinced with your position, I'm more than willing to hear you out. But when you come in a thread and just tell everyone that you're against it because you're asserting an antagonistic agenda on my suggestion, we have a problem here. I'm not doing that.
This is just trying to open up options for people. Options that does not effect you at all, nor anyone who chooses not to use those options. Now unless you explain a good reason to oppose it, all I'm seeing is that you wish to oppose options for other people just because of your own opinion. And I don't believe for a second that is justified.
Antagonist? I simply stated that I did not support it and my reasons why.
Antagonist? I simply stated that I did not support it and my reasons why.
What's to not "support"? You don't support people wanting to express themselves in their own way? The very nature of that is being antagonistic. You're basically saying "I do not want you to have X because I do not believe that you having X is correct" without a good reason.
Edit: Besides, you came into this thread with general statements. You didn't come in saying "This is what I think, so I will not support it", you came in and said "This is how it is".
What's to not "support"? You don't support people wanting to express themselves in their own way? The very nature of that is being antagonistic. You're basically saying "I do not want you to have X because I do not believe that you having X is correct" without a good reason.
I personally don't think males should be using feminine stances and females using male stances.
If I was being antagonistic, I would be insulting and trying to degrade people.
I fail to see why they would have been scared away.
Because each time someone proposes that the options shouldn't be closed off to one gender or another, this ape**** discussions happen, with some people being against it, because of whatever reason, usually being prompted by personal beliefs & expectations of one or the other gender, or thinking that it's some political agenda here, when there's none... that's why they'd be scared away.
I wish people simply took this as proposal for more options for everyone, as that's all there is to it... sigh...
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Because each time someone proposes that the options shouldn't be closed off to one gender or another, this ape**** discussions happen, with some people being against it, because of whatever reason, usually being prompted by personal beliefs & expectations of one or the other gender, or thinking that it's some political agenda here, when there's none... that's why they'd be scared away.
I wish people simply took this as proposal for more options for everyone, as that's all there is to it... sigh...
People always act over-defensive. I fail to see what issue there would be with the sharing of ideas besides that.
That is the whole point of a forum...for both sides to express their opinions on why something should or should not happen..
There really isn't 'both sides', there's the ones that want it, and people that don't want them to have it. If it was ice cream it'd be clear you should just stop trying to stop people having their fun.
Comments
That's reasonable justification. I was taking issue more to the reasoning than the point itself.
Your writing is kind of difficult to follow, but I think I get the general idea.
How can I not care about someone's gender? It's a fundamental attribute, and informs many (but not all) of the behaviors I exhibit and anticipate receiving. It is responsible for physical and (through hormones if nothing else) behavioral differences. I can accept a wide range of appearances and behaviors as female, but my brain is wired to conceptualize living creatures as male or female. Does that somehow make me a bad person?
I'm not saying that I should be allowed to impose my whims. I'm merely voicing my opinion. The fact is, any given society chooses what is or is not appropriate behavior. I will yield that people have the right to depart from social norms to a degree, but I also hold that it's up to the society to decide what deviations it will or will not accept and, to a degree, impose these restrictions on others. For example, I see no reason why women should be required to wear dresses all the time, even though that was, at one time, a social norm. But I do hold that social norms forbidding, for example, murder, should be enforced. To say "I follow Sharia Law! I have an issue with your restricting me from stoning a woman who has committed adultery!" is not a valid defense in my opinion.
I am not equating your desire to have a male-like build with murder. I use that example only to illustrate a flaw I see in your reasoning.
You have your opinion, which you have expressed. I also have an opinion, which I have expressed. If you want to disagree and pick apart my reasoning, then you are welcome to do so. In fact, if you do a good job, I would appreciate your helping me gain a fuller understanding of reality. But I treated your wants and opinions with understanding and respect, even though I disagree, and I think it's reasonable to expect that you treat me similarly, rather then becoming angry and accusatory.
I also acknowledge your right do disagree with me. I do not accept your apparent desire to suppress my right to disagree with you. No good decision can come from suppressing conflicting opinions. If a society (in this case, Star Trek Online) is to make a good, informed decision about what social norms it will enforce and which ones it will be flexible on, conflicting opinions must be voiced. Yours and mine.
I also note that you ignored the caveats I mentioned. This is partially my fault for speaking awkwardly, but you have completely ignored the fact that I said I actually support some of the changes in build you request, as long as the body remains recognizably female at a distance, and that I support your desire to have the female undershirt.
Maybe this will help. Left barbie is what we have now. Right Barbie is what I want. She's still recognizably female, but a lot less... absurd.
On the subject of issues, I have an issue with people who want to act as if what they do does not affect other people. Unless you're living by yourself on some other planet, you do, all the time, with everything you do. Heck, your living on another planet and being absent from where everybody else has an effect. You have a right to make your own choices,but those choices must always be tempered by judgement about how they will affect other people. Having a flat chest or stocky build on a female game character is of little importance--that's not what I'm taking issue with in this paragraph. I think your reasoning both fundamentally flawed and very widespread, even though it is, in my opinion, harmful.
And finally, if I have misinterpreted any of your points, feel free to correct me.
I apologize for not making my justification clear enough initially.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Also, your entitlement on that anyone should take into consideration others, when making their characters in a game... nah. Done here. People like you are a reason, why labels based on genders still exist & why we simply can't move on and have nice variety of things.
The proof, how ridiculous things are, that orangeiitis made a simple request, wanting for no restriction on clothes/hair/whatsoever for both sexes, and people like you go all 'NOOO, DO NOT WANT, WE HAVE LABELS TO UPHOLD'! Geez.
Qapla', have a nice day, done here, severaly disgusted yet again.
PS: I've not ignored your notes about some changes, but I frankly don't want my female model to scream 'female' just to appease you or those similar to you, as it's my character, and nobody has right to tell me how she's supposed to look like. In real life, I get mistaken for a dude all the time, and I don't give a single damn. Just FYI.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Why would you do that? How can you understand my position if you don't listen to what I say? Case in point:
That's not what I said. I didn't say I have expectations gender-based expectations about how people should behave? I said that I have gender-based expectations about how people will behave, and I alter my behaviors accordingly. My expectations are largely predictive, not judgmental.
Speaking of labels, I notice that you have slapped a huge one on me that says "NOOO, DO NOT WANT, WE HAVE LABELS TO UPHOLD!" You're lumping all of your opposition under the category of "unreasonable, judgmental, backwards-thinking people."
I specifically and explicitly that that paragraph wasn't really about the issue of female body shape/clothing/whatever. It's about a particular way of thinking that bothers me as much as my reluctance to give in fully to your desires seems to bother you.
Why? What good does it do to get disgusted and angry when trying to discuss something that's important to you? I'm trying really hard not to get disgusted and angry with you, because I don't want to shut you out like angry people tend to do, myself included. Why can't you do the same? And further, why get angry when I'm trying to be reasonable? I disagree with you, but my opinion is malleable. If you really want change so badly, then don't run away when someone says "no." Stay and discuss it. Reasonably, and as calmly as you can.
A real debate is a cooperative endeavor, not a competitive one. I'm not your enemy. You don't need to feel threatened or hurt by my opinion. If you disagree, convince me. Even if it doesn't work, I'm not going to demonize you.
That's not unreasonable. I still maintain my position, but I can understand where you're coming from.
My issue is not with your opinions, you can have them, as long as you don't force them on me or anyone else, but the fact that you'd prefer others not having a choice on less 'shaped' female body, just so you can recognize the gender easily. Guess what, in real life, that also is hard in some cases & you'd not go close up, just to stare at them, and make up your mind if they are male or female, as I did mention people mistake me with a dude all the time, and I don't give a single sh....
So what if you'd not be able to tell? The world wouldn't end, and more variety is better. Also, there are those effin infocards, which have 'gender' column, if you really care that much, as I said. That's all I really have to say on the issue, sir.
PS: This is for you.
Don't worry about it.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
How do we know what is normal for Bolians or Trill in this regard? Or Orions for that matter. :P
My character Tsin'xing
Most people get over-defensive anytime you disagree with them on issues like this. Trust me, I know :P.
One would think you'd be perfectly fine for the same option for other people too. Smells like some horrible double-standard there. Just sayin'.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
There's a difference between normal customization, and then a hidden political agenda trying to be forced into the game.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
I'm not talking about barbies. Though I do agree the sexualization thing is just stupid.
I'm talking about the other sides of the spectrum.
If someone wants to make a female character, which is hard to be told apart from a male model, it simply shouldn't be an issue. It's not even forcing anything on anyone - it's about having a choice. If someone wants to have a uber "feminine" body, let them, their choice and the option is there right now. But, as you said, the other side of spectrum. It should go both ways, my friend & it simply currently doesn't.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
If people really wanna see how bad the sexualization is...have them look up children characters like from the Lion King...Kung fu Panda..or anything like that....it's super bad..
Not to mention all the stupid stuff in the comic books. Why does every single heroine or villainess have to sexualized?
Which, as I said, seriously considered, to use a male model for portraying my character, because the new facial textures don't have a stubble and it'd be easy for me to recreate my current character's look; but I've invested a lot of time into building my char's strength... Although.. admittedly, if they offered re-gender token, I'd still be sorely tempted...
And it's really sad, if you think about it; that you'd have to use a male model just because the female one is so limited.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
I'm not trying to be anyone's enemy here. I want to get along with everyone, and I want everyone to get along with each other. What I take offense to is when someone, say Person A wants to actively limit another Person B's choices because of Person A's personal beliefs. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it's unjustified, and I'm gonna defend Person B. Even if I don't agree with Person B's choices.
Now do you have any reason to oppose my suggestion outside of your personal beliefs?
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
The stances thing in particular is approaching an LGBT agenda. That's what I was trying to get at.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Searched the forums and haven't found a single issue related to missing content or wiped accounts.
If anyone is able to help I would greatly appreciate it.
I bought the game at lunch, played for 2-3 months, came back a year later for a couple months, then another year after that for a few months. And now...nothing...
If someone proposed forcing a TRIBBLE BOFF onto you & your crew, that'd be pushing LGBT agenda. Some stances available for both sexes is hardly that.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
I do not support such a movement. I have friends who are LGBT. People who I have known my whole life. However, that does not mean I support what they do. I do not have any issues so long as it is kept private. However, such things like this would be breaking the barrier.
Bottom line here. I'm a free-thinker. If you wish for me to be convinced with your position, I'm more than willing to hear you out. But when you come in a thread and just tell everyone that you're against it because you're asserting an antagonistic agenda on my suggestion, we have a problem here. I'm not doing that.
This is just trying to open up options for people. Options that does not effect you at all, nor anyone who chooses not to use those options. This isn't the thing that people should keep private, because individual expression concerns the individual, not anyone else. This isn't a "barrier". It's simple, humane tolerance.
Now unless you explain a good reason to oppose this suggestion, all I'm seeing is that you wish to oppose options for other people just because of your own opinion. And I don't believe for a second that is justified.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
Edit: Besides, you came into this thread with general statements. You didn't come in saying "This is what I think, so I will not support it", you came in and said "This is how it is".
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I personally don't think males should be using feminine stances and females using male stances.
If I was being antagonistic, I would be insulting and trying to degrade people.
The suggestion is still open, if the dev hasn't been scared away from the thread yet.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I wish people simply took this as proposal for more options for everyone, as that's all there is to it... sigh...
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
People always act over-defensive. I fail to see what issue there would be with the sharing of ideas besides that.
That is the whole point of a forum...for both sides to express their opinions on why something should or should not happen..