Request: Alll Hairstyles, Makeup and Stances Available to Both Sexes

orangeitis

At least in most races, this needs to happen. For humans, their society has grown from largely traditional to largely secular. Naturally, this should mean that males and females wouldn't be culturally pressured to 'default' into certain behaviors and dress more than the other sex. In other species wouldn't necessarily have sexually segregated genders that historically match Earth's. I think sex restrictions in relation to these cultural traditions needs to dissolve. Especially for the Alien generator 'species'.

JoeJing, my request is basically to make all hairstyles(excluding ones that reflect male pattern baldness or facial hair, as these would be biological), makeup elements, and character stances available to both sexes.

jodarkrider

Definitelly agreed. And it should go not just to hairstyles/stances and stuff like that, but also to costume options... I'd love to see that.

For example, Romulan females have no options for buzz-cut and the shaved hair, even though I did see it on female Romulan NPC's. I see no reason why any hairstyle/costume should be gender locked at all...

orangeitis

jodarkrider wrote: »

Definitelly agreed. And it should go not just to hairstyles/stances and stuff like that, but also to costume options... I'd love to see that.

For example, Romulan females have no options for buzz-cut and the shaved hair, even though I did see it on female Romulan NPC's. I see no reason why any hairstyle/costume should be gender locked at all...

Definitely. I can't be the only one who wants swimming trunks on a female character(though a female character with a matching top, as in no top at all, is probably a totally different issue altogether), and there have been requests for skants/male skirts as well. (Oddysey skant please JoeJing?)

artan42

If it means males get more than 2 long hair options, then yes please, especially if we get the punk hair.

orangeitis

^ it most definitely should!

ashkrik23

Male items should stay with males and female items with females.

orangeitis

ashkrik23 wrote: »

Male items should stay with males and female items with females.

Define "male items" aand "female items". Also, please explain your position. I'm curious.

It seems our definitions might be different, as I'm talking about "items" that don't belong to males or females.

ashkrik23

By items, I mean stances, mainly.

orangeitis

Why should any stance be 'owned' by either sex?

ashkrik23

orangeitis wrote: »

Why should any stance be 'owned' by either sex?

Because female stances are not for males and male stances are not for females.

cbob312

ashkrik23 wrote: »

Because female stances are not for males and male stances are not for females.

And yet I can stand like either sex. Weird, eh?

angrytarg

I actually think your proposal, OP, is too progressive. Remember, while Star Trek portrays a human society matured and emanzipated, our present day society is not. Homosexual characters in videogames still cause uproars like a black woman officer serving on a starship amongst and above white men caused a few decades before.

I am afraid this is too hot for Cryptic to touch.

ashkrik23

cbob312 wrote: »

And yet I can stand like either sex. Weird, eh?

Real life does not dictate a game.

adverbero

More options is a bonus, and only serves to give greater control of character appearance to gamers

And besides theres nothing stopping you from making a character biography into a cross dresser anyway, just make a female toon and say they are in drag or something

So what would really be changing anyway?

orangeitis

ashkrik23 wrote: »

Because female stances are not for males and male stances are not for females.

Why is that?

adverbero wrote: »

More options is a bonus, and only serves to give greater control of character appearance to gamers

And besides theres nothing stopping you from making a character biography into a cross dresser anyway, just make a female toon and say they are in drag or something

So what would really be changing anyway?

Male characters "in drag" ≠ biological females

Most male and female humanoids have sexually dimorphic physical features. I see no reason to "match" those features with any particular dress or behavior unless the clothing functionality is specific to the wearer's biology.

And maybe in some species or places, "cross dressing" isn't even a concept.

adverbero

orangeitis wrote: »

Why is that?

Male characters "in drag" ≠ biological females

Most male and female humanoids have sexually dimorphic physical features. I see no reason to "match" those features with any particular dress or behavior unless the clothing functionality is specific to the wearer's biology.

And maybe in some species or places, "cross dressing" isn't even a concept.

Miss communication, I phrased that very badly, what I mean is, you can decide your toon is whatever gender you want irrespective of what the Player model you use is

The drag comment was supposed to highlight that theres no stopping you using whatever clothing you want if you want to roleplay it, the game doesn't allow cross dressing, but you can get around that if you like in you biography page

I know a few players who choose to use the Male Characters for the clothing options but they Role play their characters as Female, things like the jacket taper, and the way trousers tend to hug the figure more for females and lack of a lower end on the bust slider make them have to if they want their character to look the way they want

orangeitis

adverbero wrote: »

Miss communication, I phrased that very badly, what I mean is, you can decide your toon is whatever gender you want irrespective of what the Player model you use is

Gender sure, but not sex, as that is predefined by game parameters. I suppose you can even pretend your character is a different sex than what the game tells you, but that strays from demonstrable reality, and some of us can not suspend our disbelief that far. Especially when we prefer an extent of sexual dimorphism that isn't allowable by the opposite sex.

Having culturally behavioral or fashion options open would be a much more logical approach than to merely take something and try pretending it's something else.

Besides, hair length and style, how one stands, and what paint they put on their faces has nothing to do with their biological sex. I don't see a reason we should just go out of our way to avoid addressing this issue.

thay8472

Yeah, more hair styles?

Because female stances are not for males and male stances are not for females.

Why?

woerligen

Sharing stances and Hairstyles among sexes is a good idea, Imho. A compromise option would be to exclude certain styles for sharing.

Existing example: buzz cut is a traditionally male style and it looks awesome on female characters as well.

orangeitis

woerligen wrote: »

Sharing stances and Hairstyles among sexes is a good idea, Imho. A compromise option would be to exclude certain styles for sharing.

Why compromise between stances of "I want this option available to everyone" and "I don't want anyone to be able to do that"? The only good reason to exclude any of these options would be from a tech logistics perspective, and that's be up to the dev to decide if it's worth it to invest time in or not.

There can be no compromise between those that tolerate/don't mind what others do and those that wish to force their preferences onto others.

Besides, wouldn't you want to encourage choice especially when there are so many diverse preferences? I mean when you defend the option to let one person or group have something, they are more willing to defend the option to let you keep your preferences as well. Seems like it's more an issue of "I wanna get along" versus "I wanna tell everyone what to do".

But maybe I'm assuming too much. That's why I always ask.

psygn0sis

Kinda like forcing gender bending on everyone else. Let's keep politics for the real world and political meandering as well.

orangeitis

psygn0sis wrote: »

Kinda like forcing gender bending on everyone else. Let's keep politics for the real world and political meandering as well.

Giving people options isn't forcing anything onto anyone at all. It is merely providing everyone with more choices, and no one is forcing anyone to make those choices.

This isn't about politics at all. It's about one request on one game which(I assume) we all happen to play.

virusdancer

orangeitis wrote: »

JoeJing, my request is basically to make all hairstyles(excluding ones that reflect male pattern baldness or facial hair, as these would be biological), makeup elements, and character stances available to both sexes.

Um...er...females can experience baldness as well as concerns with facial hair. It's curious you'd make the request you did while making the exclusions that you did...

orangeitis

virusdancer wrote: »

Um...er...females can experience baldness as well as concerns with facial hair. It's curious you'd make the request you did while making the exclusions that you did...

Can they? To the extent that the current models allow?

Huh. I wasn't aware.

artan42

psygn0sis wrote: »

Kinda like forcing gender bending on everyone else. Let's keep politics for the real world and political meandering as well.

Yes all your male toons will have unchangeable feminine stances with the elegant hair style, obviously.

:rolleyes:

psygn0sis

Uh yeah. That made total sense. Maybe it's funny to a five year old?

jodarkrider

ashkrik23 wrote: »

Male items should stay with males and female items with females.

Ugh... one of those who loves to have labels on genders, eh?

Also, this is not about some political correctness, whatsoever, it's about giving people choices of how they want their characters to look like. There's absolutely no reason to restrict hairstyles to either gender, same with clothes. I still really loathe the fact that females, when having 'open uniform', are limited to just showing clevge, instead of having the proper uniform undershirt. Or, the alternate uniforms - the males have a nice jacket, which can be used for off-duty outfit look nicely, and females have a f.... bra. And before you say that was canon.. TOS uniforms for females have both male and female versions set by canon, so it has been done, when we were given the choice.

If this was about 'gender bending' - I hate this term, stereotypes affilated to one or other gender should burn and be forgotten forever, just sayin... , you'd be forced to have one LGBT BOFF, without ability to choose him/her out. So no, trhis is about giving people options, which you'd not be obligated to use, if you didn't want to.

adverbero wrote: »

I know a few players who choose to use the Male Characters for the clothing options but they Role play their characters as Female, things like the jacket taper, and the way trousers tend to hug the figure more for females and lack of a lower end on the bust slider make them have to if they want their character to look the way they want

I've considered that as well, but my main character has a lot of effort put into it, so making the alt equally strong the way my character is, that's just too much work at the moment. But yes, you are right, the male model is, overally, better in some ways, if you want your character on the tomboy side or generally, prefering clothes, which don't hug the female figure all the time...

kjwashington

Just curious. What stances besides feminine and cute are gender restricted?

alexmakepeace

orangeitis wrote: »

For humans, their society has grown from largely traditional to largely secular. Naturally, this should mean that males and females wouldn't be culturally pressured to 'default' into certain behaviors and dress more than the other sex..

Not necessarily. One of the fundamental functions of a brain is to distinguish members of that individual's own species, and to differentiate within that species between members of the same or different genders. The specifics of how this is done very by culture, but the imperative is biological and won't necessarily disappear because a society become more secular, or when it becomes more egalitarian (which is what I suspect you mean when you say secular).

orangeitis wrote: »

I think sex restrictions in relation to these cultural traditions needs to dissolve.'.

I won't comment on whether these traditions do or not need to dissolve, but the fact that you think it needs to happen does not necessarily mean it will happen, and since STO is set in the future, what you think will happen is more important than what you think should happen.

orangeitis wrote: »

JoeJing, my request is basically to make all hairstyles(excluding ones that reflect male pattern baldness or facial hair, as these would be biological), makeup elements, and character stances available to both sexes.

This isn't unreasonable, in general. I see no reason why male hair patterns (aside from the male-patternbaldness you mention, which is not so much a "shouldn't" think as a "weird" thing) won't all work on females. There are some female hairstyles that, in my opinion, shouldn't be put on males--pigtails, for instance. Then again, I think they look dumb and shouldn't really be Starfleet code hairstyles in the first place.

I can accept female stances for male characters. Some guys will stand like that sometimes, even though it's dumb in my opinions. Though I sort of think some stances should be removed for Starfleet--what kind of self-respecting Starfleet officer would swing her hips on duty like that? If she walks down a crowded hall, she'll knock everyone over with her wildly swinging pelvis!

In a way, I would like to see makeup removed altogether. These are professional men and women--they should aim to inspire respect, not beauty, and STO girls are quite pretty without it. Men wear makeup too, sometimes--goth stuff springs to mind--but that's not really professional. This is the only kind of makeup I think anyone really needs. That and maybe the occasional set of black around the eyes to reduce glare.

And apologies to jodarkrider, but I kind of want to see the female form stay mostly how it is now, not so much for attractiveness but for the identification purposes I mentioned above. In STO, you usually only get to see people from far away. Large gender ques like hairstyle and body shape are all you can really make out. If this was a first-person game, and you could walk up to people and look them in the face, I'd feel differently.

That being said, female toons could do with the ability to be a bit stouter and have smaller TRIBBLE. The current breast size, in particular, is kind of silly, and not nearly as important for small-scale identification as the overall form.

Definitely add the undershirts to female open uniforms. Remember what I said about professional?

jodarkrider

alexmakepeace wrote: »

[snip]
And apologies to jodarkrider, but I kind of want to see the female form stay mostly how it is now, not so much for attractiveness but for the identification purposes I mentioned above.

Well, why your unwillingness to not care about what other person gender is or your unability to tell them apart, should be a factor in deciding if the female form is changed or not and why it should limit *others* from having more options?

Seriously, I have an issue with people, who'd force their standards on others, by restricting *others* from having an option. Sure, have your female characters as "feminine" as it gets, but don't force that on others. I want the female model to have the ability to not be as curvy, because guess what - when you wear an actual uniform, it actually covers a lot of parts.. unless you smuggle balloons or have oversized hips. And guess what, I don't make my character to appease others, but me, because it's *my* character and others have no right to tell me how my character should or shouldn't like.

PS: If you really need to identify someone's gender in STO and you reeeally care so much.. infocards. Use them. Your laziness shouldn't be a reason to limit others from having a choice.

orangeitis

kjwashington wrote: »

Just curious. What stances besides feminine and cute are gender restricted?

Seductive. Which I believe some male NPCs on Risa already feature.

alexmakepeace wrote: »

Not necessarily. One of the fundamental functions of a brain is to distinguish members of that individual's own species, and to differentiate within that species between members of the same or different genders. The specifics of how this is done very by culture, but the imperative is biological and won't necessarily disappear because a society become more secular, or when it becomes more egalitarian (which is what I suspect you mean when you say secular).

What does biology have to do with wanting cultural aspects to be available to everyone? On top of that, biology is the main way we can identify sexes, and we don't need additional ways to accomplish this. Humans(and by extension, most humanoid aliens) are sexually dimorphic enough that most of the time, it will be easy to tell the sex of someone you're interacting with just from a glance(or hearing their voice, but since this is about characters who never talk, that point is moot)

Basically, anyone who learned about the birds and the bees should be able to tell males and females apart without cultural assistance.

alexmakepeace wrote: »

I won't comment on whether these traditions do or not need to dissolve, but the fact that you think it needs to happen does not necessarily mean it will happen, and since STO is set in the future, what you think will happen is more important than what you think should happen.

Here's the thing. Those traditions don't need to dissolve at all for the options to open up. There is a very real chance that in a setting like STO's in the distant future of Earth, traditions can be maintained by some, while it is still socially acceptable for others to stray from those traditions.

No one's trying to take those traditions away. We just don't want to be bound by them is all.

alexmakepeace wrote: »

This isn't unreasonable, in general. I see no reason why male hair patterns (aside from the male-patternbaldness you mention, which is not so much a "shouldn't" think as a "weird" thing) won't all work on females. There are some female hairstyles that, in my opinion, shouldn't be put on males--pigtails, for instance. Then again, I think they look dumb and shouldn't really be Starfleet code hairstyles in the first place.

I kinda sorta agree with this point, actually. For Starfleet dress code, at least. But we have off-duty outfits, so why not off-duty hairstyles? =3

alexmakepeace wrote: »

That being said, female toons could do with the ability to be a bit stouter and have smaller TRIBBLE. The current breast size, in particular, is kind of silly, and not nearly as important for small-scale identification as the overall form.

Definitely add the undershirts to female open uniforms. Remember what I said about professional?

Agreed 100% here.