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Why the T6 Intelligence Ships look like how they do (from the concept artist!)

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  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    stealth that in the ST timeframe that mean squat
    maybe so, but that isn't the point; they're simply trying their best in a field they're not used to
    Was named Trek17.

    Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,561 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    trek21 wrote: »
    maybe so, but that isn't the point; they're simply trying their best in a field they're not used to

    dude stop defending this. Crytpic has guys who can't design starfleet ships. It's that simple. Regent didn't go over well. Avenger even less. The dyson ships are completely made fun of and now these ships. Nope No they clearly can't do the job for this game. Any other space game go ahead but here nope.
  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    dude stop defending this. Crytpic has guys who can't design starfleet ships. It's that simple. Regent didn't go over well. Avenger even less. The dyson ships are completely made fun of and now these ships. Nope No they clearly can't do the job for this game. Any other space game go ahead but here nope.
    That's how you see it; I don't obviously, and it's not a fact that the other ships are universally hated, or a fact that they 'can't design' (because those are opinions)

    But let's not turn this into me-vs-you. Please
    Was named Trek17.

    Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    It's almost as if the devs are speaking a different language...and people aren't understanding.

    Dev: We designed these ships to be different. They aren't supposed to be evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Boards: I don't like them because they don't look evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Dev: That's the purpose. They aren't supposed to be.
    Boards: Well I don't like them because they're not evolved from the Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    khan5000 wrote: »
    It's almost as if the devs are speaking a different language...and people aren't understanding.

    Dev: We designed these ships to be different. They aren't supposed to be evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Boards: I don't like them because they don't look evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Dev: That's the purpose. They aren't supposed to be.
    Boards: Well I don't like them because they're not evolved from the Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Yeah it reminds me of the feigned outrage over how 'hideous' the DSDs are. :P
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  • saekiithsaekiith Member Posts: 534 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    khan5000 wrote: »
    It's almost as if the devs are speaking a different language...and people aren't understanding.

    Dev: We designed these ships to be different. They aren't supposed to be evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Boards: I don't like them because they don't look evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.
    Dev: That's the purpose. They aren't supposed to be.
    Boards: Well I don't like them because they're not evolved from the Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns.

    Not being evolved from Galaxies, Connies and Sovereigns is completely Okay and I welcome it (Wells Class, Enterprise J Class)

    Looking like GTVA Cruisers is, however, not.
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  • drazziidrazzii Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I think trying to compare the Defiant to these new ships is not really a great example. Sure, the Defiant was one of the few ships (NOT the first) to show up that didn't quite look the normal, but when it did de-cloak for the first time on the show there was no doubt in anyone's mind that it was a Federation ship.

    The Defiant although lacked the normal nacelles, saucer and hull look had many other attributes that defined it and made it look like a Federation ship including hull material, a round-sh sauce-hull shape, and a believable reason to its design. We didn't need a huge back story--just that they were originally made to combat the Borg.

    These new Intel ships don't seem to carry any of those traits right off the bat. They are hardly passable as "Federation" starships.

    Just my opinion.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    dude stop defending this. Crytpic has guys who can't design starfleet ships. It's that simple. Regent didn't go over well. Avenger even less. The dyson ships are completely made fun of and now these ships. Nope No they clearly can't do the job for this game. Any other space game go ahead but here nope.

    Are they?

    I only really dislike the Federation ship. I get what it's supposed to be, but I don't have to like to it for that.
    But the Romulan Dyson ship is great looking.

    And I didn't know the Regent ship was disliked. I thought it looked pretty good. Or did you mean another ship? I think some of the old Galaxy variants are really terrible, however.

    And let's not forget what kind of horrors the real Startrek designers gave us. Kitbashes like the Yaeger. And the Stargazer cannot be called a beauty either. Heck, it might actually be the first ship to break the 2-nacelle rule. Of course, that was when Gene Roddenberry was around and suddenly it was the "even number of nacelle" run. But then came the Galaxy-X, and suddenly was it "Oh, yeah, we meant even number of warp coils, and most modern nacelles have multiple coils".


    And people that claim "but this stealth material and colors can have no possible effect compared to cloaking devices"
    We're talking about a franchise that had shields for its ships primary protection and a ship without shields seems unprotected. Energy fields is where it's at it terms of defence.
    And yet, the Defiant comes along and carries Ablative Armour, allowing it to withstand heavy enemy fire even without shields.
    The Voyager gets 25th century tech and instead of using more advanced shields, it deploys "Ablative Armour" to withstand Borg attacks.

    It's okay to dislike the ships. You can even call them ugly.
    But don't claim they could not possibly be Star Trek ships, and don't claim the designers are incompetent just because you dislike the ship's look.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    drazzii wrote: »
    I think trying to compare the Defiant to these new ships is not really a great example. Sure, the Defiant was one of the few ships (NOT the first) to show up that didn't quite look the normal, but when it did de-cloak for the first time on the show there was no doubt in anyone's mind that it was a Federation ship.

    The Defiant although lacked the normal nacelles, saucer and hull look had many other attributes that defined it and made it look like a Federation ship including hull material, a round-sh sauce-hull shape, and a believable reason to its design. We didn't need a huge back story--just that they were originally made to combat the Borg.

    These new Intel ships don't seem to carry any of those traits right off the bat. They are hardly passable as "Federation" starships.

    Just my opinion.
    The Defiant did look like a Federation ship because of the materials, I think. The colors just looked like we knew from other Starfleet vessels.

    The new ships look like Startrek and Starfleet because they follow the base concepts of other ships, but diverge in hull materials and colors.
    Saucer + Nacelles for the Cruiser and the Science Vessel
    Defiant shape for the Escort.
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  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    One of the most un-canon looking ships in Star Trek history may have been the Defiant. No saucer, no nacelles seperated from the main body. Designed as a Starfleet warship. Much smaller than any of the preceeding Starfleet ships, and yet one of ships packing the most punch. Going against any previous design ethos of ships, against the concept of "better ships are bigger".

    Except, of course... it's canon.

    This on a show which "stars" a starbase, and for the first few seasons used "runabouts" to get planetside for that "touch of exploration" feeling...

    One could argue that the Defiant is more an "overgrown runabout" and, therefore, keeping in aesthetic with the show in general...

    Fact that it was painted much like a runabout, which was painted like every other TNG ship, only adds icing to the cake...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

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  • daedalus304daedalus304 Member Posts: 1,049 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    anyone else think the materials and shape of the hull are for in case there are races capable of seeing through cloaks?

    Sensors aren't magical uber devices that just use nothing to find things, they project some form of energy to detect things similar to sonar or radar but with far more detail.
  • mandarsmashmandarsmash Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The Defiant did look like a Federation ship because of the materials, I think. The colors just looked like we knew from other Starfleet vessels.

    The new ships look like Startrek and Starfleet because they follow the base concepts of other ships, but diverge in hull materials and colors.
    Saucer + Nacelles for the Cruiser and the Science Vessel
    Defiant shape for the Escort.

    It's a fair argument, at least for now. Once people start bringing these intelligence ships into the game, I'm betting a whole lot of them are going to change the materials, myself included.

    At that point, with materials looking Starfleet-ish, do we really have an argument that these intelligence ships don't look Star Trek-ish? Especially if there are also alternate pieces.

    Speaking of materials, there are already some pretty un-Trek-ish materials in-game. I'm pretty sure I've seen a number of them used in-game by players, and nobody gives a (fig).

    Overall, I just think the whole rancor regarding the intelligence ships is just generally a whole lot of...well, what Internet forums do best.

    I think sensible folk will just take a look and try things out in open beta, or see what other people are doing when it hits Holodeck. They probably won't look nearly as bad as some already existing designs, in my opinion.

    Of course, it's all about one's opinion. I just hate hearing people cramming opinion down others' throats like it was fact.

    (Note: none of that was directed at the quoted poster, except for the part about hull materials)
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    anyone else think the materials and shape of the hull are for in case there are races capable of seeing through cloaks?

    Sensors aren't magical uber devices that just use nothing to find things, they project some form of energy to detect things similar to sonar or radar but with far more detail.

    In the Alpha Quadrant, everyone pretty much knows what the other races are capable of. In the Delta Quadrant, Voyager only encountered a small fraction of the races in the Delta Quadrant and only spent a few days getting to know what a race is capable of. Passive stealth is a way to deal with certain races that are capable of detecting cloaked ships.

    There are two different types of sensors, active and passive. Active sensors are similar to sonar or radar while passive sensors are like telescopes where the sensor detects the emissions from a starship.
  • catoblepasbetacatoblepasbeta Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    starkaos wrote: »
    In the Alpha Quadrant, everyone pretty much knows what the other races are capable of. In the Delta Quadrant, Voyager only encountered a small fraction of the races in the Delta Quadrant and only spent a few days getting to know what a race is capable of. Passive stealth is a way to deal with certain races that are capable of detecting cloaked ships.

    There are two different types of sensors, active and passive. Active sensors are similar to sonar or radar while passive sensors are like telescopes where the sensor detects the emissions from a starship.
    Actually, both radar and sonar come in active and passive varieties.

    IMO if something can see through cloaks, there's no reason to think that conventional stealth technology would in any way help.
  • trek21trek21 Member Posts: 2,246 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Actually, both radar and sonar come in active and passive varieties.

    IMO if something can see through cloaks, there's no reason to think that conventional stealth technology would in any way help.
    That's probably where the purpose comes in; everyone in the Alpha Quadrant knows about cloaks, and have many if not all of the tricks to find them out.

    But the Delta Quadrant? Where we'll primarily be using these new stealth ships? Some of the races still have yet to learn how to properly dispose of warp drive waste, and one has the 'honor' of being one of the known races the Borg denied to assimilate.

    Something tells me it'd be at least partly effective, given the difference in general tech levels. Borg and Undine obviously wouldn't have any issues, but they're not the only ones we're dealing with
    Was named Trek17.

    Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
  • caldannachcaldannach Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Some of these posts are ridiculous.

    Whining about stuff you haven't even seen in game yet. Just demonstrates to me some of the people who play this game and constantly berate things in the game have nothing better to do.

    I have seen lots of ships i didn't like the look of in pictures, that i then appreciated later when they were visible to me in game. As well as vice versa i have seen ships that looked cool at first but i didn't like after seeing more closely.

    I will wait until i see things in game before i start talking like some people here. Speaking as if they have owned and flown these ships for weeks and are experts on them, when in actual fact all we have seen is a couple of zoomed out pictures of the exact same angles.

    Some typical star trek nerds that think the universe and its ideas can't change. They need new ships and designs, even Starfleet ones. There are only so many ways you can match up a saucer, pylons and some nacelles before they all start to look the same.

    And someone said they have been told these ships will only be good for pvp? Lol what? Who told them that the Fairy Godmother? Sounds like someone who cant afford to buy them simply justifying in their own mind why they don't need to buy them anyway. Nice try.

    Less BS, more wait and see. Never seen sci-fi fans with such closed minds before. Ironic.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Cloaking devices have been known to release certain radiation that could be detected by certain races. Certain Delta Quadrant races could easily detect cloaking devices so it would explain why there needs to be passive stealth used. Also Cloaking Devices use up a lot of energy so passive stealth could mean the difference between being found when the cloak is no longer operational and fighting another day.
  • stomperx99stomperx99 Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I like the Intel Torn battlestar of DOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!! because, I guess I'm getting bored flying iconic ships... :p
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    I'm sorry to people who I, in the past, insulted, annoyed, etc.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    The "Active Sensor Arrays" are apperently not simply something like active sensors, but actually a probe you deploy.

    That seems interesting. It's weird that you can't use cloak while using the probe, but it means you need your stealth hull so your ship itself remains difficult to find while the probe is shouting out its position with an active sensor scan.
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  • jjumetleyjjumetley Member Posts: 281 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Their plating hints of some alien tech exchange. It has always been strange to me that somehow tech doesn’t seem to cross over species in ST
    Claasic Starfleet ships already are a mixture of different species' technology. Secondly - why aren't Klingon and Romulan Intel ships so radically different from the rest of the fleet?
    Design wise the blue “Tron lines” were done to “draw” the ship against the darkness of space.
    First you make a ship low energy signature and then you make it visible against the blackness of space using neons. Where's the logic?
    Also, if you want your IP to continue to survive new things have to be done for a new generation of users. That’s why J.J movies are so successful regardless of what classic Trek fans say.
    Wait a minute. You try to tell me J.J. movies are so popular because of the starship design? Don't know your opinion but to me the J.J.-prise isn't a such a radical departure from TMP Enterprise (apart from size that is). Don't you think that TNG era ships hold up really good even today?
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jjumetley wrote: »
    First you make a ship low energy signature and then you make it visible against the blackness of space using neons. Where's the logic?
    Believe it or not, but visual identification is mostly useless in space. On today's earth, radar and whatnot are much more used than a guy looking at the sky. Modern stealth fighters are not invisible to our eyes, but they are to radar, that's the whole point.
    Windows are useless in a spaceship, except if you want to see the stars and think it's beautiful.

    They added the blue neon so the player can see the ship, and not complain because they can't see it.
    Even if the ships was a giant neon itself, it would still be invisible to most scanner or whatever they use in spaceship, meaning it would still be invisible to the crew.
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  • jjumetleyjjumetley Member Posts: 281 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    erei1 wrote: »
    Believe it or not, but visual identification is mostly useless in space. On today's earth, radar and whatnot are much more used than a guy looking at the sky.
    Can't agree on that. When you build a ship dedicated for intelligence you want to minimize the risk of being detected. Including the risk of being spotted visually. There is a cloaking device in Star Trek after all, right? People behind New Battlestar Galactica understood it and made the stealth Viper black. Cryptic also understands this aspect by making new ships dark.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    jjumetley wrote: »
    Claasic Starfleet ships already are a mixture of different species' technology. Secondly - why aren't Klingon and Romulan Intel ships so radically different from the rest of the fleet?
    [/QUOT€]
    Maybe because they aren't based on a mixture of different species' technology? Starfleet Intelligence ships are, quite possibly because the whole stealth-focused aspect is completely new aspect for Starfleet vessels.

    First you make a ship low energy signature and then you make it visible against the blackness of space using neons. Where's the logic?
    Just turn off the lights then.
    But in show-off mode, the lights are on.
    Wait a minute. You try to tell me J.J. movies are so popular because of the starship design? Don't know your opinion but to me the J.J.-prise isn't a such a radical departure from TMP Enterprise (apart from size that is). Don't you think that TNG era ships hold up really good even today?
    No, he's just saying they are popular.
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  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    umaeko wrote: »
    I concur with mustrumridcully0. If they wish to provide the crew a view of outer-space - less the structural weaknesses that are windows - then they can just use holography to project a view of space within crew quarters, lounges and conference rooms.

    Heck, the Eclipse does not have a visible bridge. I know one of my fleetmates Yuzral would approve, because dorsally-mounted bridge were a blatant weakpoint.

    Also, we draw inspirations from many things, and modern design is one of them. Right now, following the lines of stealth-planes and lamborghini cars is the source of design cues... and honestly, I model spaceships and it's the same for me. It's not a question of what would be truly futuristic becase - hey - we actually have no idea how things will be in 3 centuries. All we have to go on is the art of today.

    So, in general, I frown on nitpicking just for the sake of nitpicking. I actually very much doubt anyone here could actually design a stealth-variant shape language much better. And people are being waaay too hung up on ships which are admitted to be the exception to the rule.

    indeed! the designers are going for a feel and look that suits the roll, rather than trying to
    just modify an exhisting model. this whole intel setup is almost a slap in the face to the
    Federations 'Official' ideals and methods. it is almost as if the extreme change in design, is
    a way of purposefully distancing them. some will love them and some will hate them, but then
    that is the way of any and all designs. also, as a side note, the lack of windows is a total non
    issue, there really is no actual justification for them, as view screens can fill that roll. if anything
    windows are just a habitual hangover from the original series. i'll try and find a link to a recent
    luxury passenger jets being developed with no cabin windows, just full cabin length view screens
    running along on both sides.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/27598/would-you-fly-in-a-plane-without-windows.html
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Doesn't matter how many ways you try to justify it. The only one in the bunch that looks remotely like a Starfleet ship is the Guardian-class. And maybe that bastardized Defiant-looking thing.

    That Rom battlecruiser, on the other hand, that thing's shmexy. :D
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  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Based on STO's own lore that explanation is BS.


    Both the TOS bridge and fleet spire maps have shutters that will cover up the windows so good game on that one

    (not that the story wasn't bs before that, dating back to the 1960s romulan tos ship with cloak and windows)

    In fact since we are talking voyager remember that time they had to go through dark space that was exactly like having no windows on the ship?

    The captain fell into depression so arguably star ships HAVE TO HAVE windows according to lore.

    Additionally the tiny chinese girl on "enterprise" once asked to switch cabin because "the stars were going the wrong way"...

    SO
  • qziqzaqziqza Member Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    vestereng wrote: »
    Based on STO's own lore that explanation is BS.


    Both the TOS bridge and fleet spire maps have shutters that will cover up the windows so good game on that one

    (not that the story wasn't bs before that, dating back to the 1960s romulan tos ship with cloak and windows)

    In fact since we are talking voyager remember that time they had to go through dark space that was exactly like having no windows on the ship?

    The captain fell into depression so arguably star ships HAVE TO HAVE windows according to lore.

    Additionally the tiny chinese girl on "enterprise" once asked to switch cabin because "the stars were going the wrong way"...

    SO

    again... a view screen does the same thing as a window, and i dont mean created or
    repeated images. if its good enough for the bridge its more than good enough for a
    quarter or mess hall etc. the depression was caused, as the crew had no perception
    of moving through space relative to time, and you cant fool the brain with fake images.
    if, however, you know the image you are seeing is real and relative to your location,
    movement and time, then the brain can accept it.
    valoreah wrote: »
    <nitpick> Hoshi is Japanese. </nitpick>

    i take things so literally, was thinking chinese girl, hmmm something doesnt compute.
    that would have played on my mind all day, thanks for that lol
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  • drogyn1701drogyn1701 Member Posts: 3,606 Media Corps
    edited September 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    <nitpick> Hoshi is Japanese. </nitpick>

    And Linda Park is Korean. Double fail.
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Whut? The character was Japanese. The ethnic background of the actress portraying the part has no bearing on that. Reading comprehension fail.

    I think he meant the original poster double failed because he got neither the character's nor the actor's origin right.
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  • drogyn1701drogyn1701 Member Posts: 3,606 Media Corps
    edited September 2014
    I think he meant the original poster double failed because he got neither the character's nor the actor's origin right.

    Precisely this ^^^
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