The upcoming release of Delta Rising will bring many new and exciting things to Star Trek Online. As with most major game changes, there is also frustration from the player base about how some of these changes are being implemented. There has been a lot of misplaced anger on the forums over the costs of upgrading a ship to Tier 5-U, and a focus on cost has blinded players from the more pressing issues surrounding these changes. It is to be expected that since the transition to a free-to-play model that in the absence of monthly subscription revenue there will be an increased focus on in-game transactions, including ship upgrade modules. Like many players, I'm not a huge fan of having to sink continuous streams of money into the game, however, I'm willing to do so if that money is going towards something worthwhile. In the case of upgrading existing ships to Tier 5-U, I don't think a solid argument exists that that money would be going towards a worthwhile alternative to Tier 6 ships.
- PLAYERS AND THEIR SHIPS - MORE THAN JUST AN INVESTMENT
Across a single tier of ships, many of the differences between ships come from either aesthetic presentation or the character of the ship (usually through special weapons or universal consoles that are tied to the ship). This means that much of the time a player is deciding which ship to play based on some kind of attachment to a particular ship, be it part of the story of the ship, the look and feel of the ship, or the bond they have formed with a ship from flying it for upwards of 4 years. For many players, being able to get access to these ships is a very big part of their in-game experience, they have waited for ships from different factions or different parts of the Star Trek canon to be released, and now many of these ships that players waited for and celebrated their release will now be obsolete. PWE claims to not want to devalue the time and money that players have invested into their current Tier 5 ships, and thus proposes these upgrade options as a solution, however, these upgrades don't solve the problem that PWE is trying to fix. The only way to not devalue Tier 5 ships is to prevent them from being obsolete, charging a fee and calling them Tier 5-U does not accomplish that goal. Yes, the upgrade to a Tier 5-U does provide access to some important benefits, namely an additional console slot and scaling ship hit points, but all that does is make them <less> obsolete than if the upgrade option were not available. By no means does it actually put Tier 5 ships on par with Tier 6 ships.
- PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO SETTLE
For purposes of clarity, I think it's important to note that not all Tier 5 ships are created equal. Tier 5 is an expansive term used to describe endgame ships, however, within Tier 5 there are two distinct groups. To try to make it easier, we can look at them as regular and advanced. The regular ships include standard Zen store ships like the D'Kyr and Guramba that don't have corresponding fleet versions, as well as the base versions of ships that do have a fleet counterpart, like the Avenger Battle Cruiser and the Caitain Atrox Carrier. These ships tend to have lower hull and shields, and only 9 console slots. The advanced ships include fleet ships that are purchased with Fleet Modules, Lobi Store ships, Event Reputation ships like the Risian Corvette, Lock Box ships, and Zen store 3-pack ships like the Vesta and Andorian escorts. These ships come with extra advantages over the regular ships, including higher shields and hull (in the case of fleet ships, 10% each over their non-fleet counterparts) and a 10th console slot. These same distinctions exist in the Tier 6 ships as well, with fleet versions of the intelligence ships coming some time after the launch of Delta Rising.
When comparing the impact of Tier 5-U ships, it makes more sense to compare similar ships, meaning that comparing the Tier 6 ships that are available at launch against Tier 5-U versions of the "advanced" ships is not an accurate comparison. Rather we should compare the "regular" Tier 5-U ships against the "regular" Tier 6 ships, and the same for the "advanced."
When we compare the ships this way, the disparity becomes much more pronounced. A Tier 5-U D'kyr for instance, will have a lower hull than any Tier 6 ship (they will both scale, but at level 60, the D'kyr will lag greatly), and will only have 10 console slots. All Tier 6 ships will have access to an extra Lt. Commander bridge officer ability, a starship trait, and a higher hull. If we compare a Tier 5-U advanced ship, like the Vesta against a Tier 6 advanced ship, like the Fleet Scryer, there is no real comparison. They will both have 11 console slots, but the Vesta is going to scale its HP to top out on hull HP around 35,000 against the Scryer's 40,000. The Scryer, like all Tier 6 ships, will also have two Lt. Commander slots, intelligence bridge officer abilities, and a starship trait.
While players may have adapted to changes in the past, PWE has also been moderately good at keeping players from having to settle when it comes to their ships. When Tier 5 was released, retrofits gave players an option to have Tier 5 versions of their previous ships, the later release of fleet ships allowed older ships to have increased hull and shields and a full complement of 10 console slots, making them equal to other advanced ships. That just doesn't seem to be the case here. Players shouldn't have to settle, adjust, or adapt when it comes to their ship choices, especially since in the past, PWE has shown that there are ways to keep players in the ships that they have become attached to. Tier 5-U ships may give an advantage (if you believe that an extra console slot outweighs all the other benefits available at Tier 6) to players playing an advanced Tier 5-U ship for the first couple weeks, but after Tier 6 fleet ships, and other Tier 6 advanced ships, become available, that advantage is completely erased, and Tier 5-U ships become greatly outclassed.
- "BELLS AND WHISTLES" VS. SIGNFICANT CHANGES
In the developer's notes, they say that Tier 5-U ships will be like Tier 6, minus "a few Bells and Whistles." Generally when we speak of Bells and Whistles, we think of things that are not of material value, maybe aesthetic changes, or quirky functions, that don't necessarily affect the ships ability to function. This would include things like additional ship materials, different ship registries and alternative costume options. Instead, PWE refers to include an additional bridge officer ability, a starship trait, a 5th level of ship mastery, and on some ships, the ability to slot specialist bridge officers. These are hardly Bells and Whistles, these are changes that make Tier 5 (and Tier 5-U) ships unable to compete with Tier 6 ships.
- TIER 5-U DOESN'T ADD ENOUGH VALUE TO MATCH WHAT PLAYERS ARE MISSING OUT ON
Even though some of those additions may seem innocuous, they are far from it. One of the most noticeable differences between Tier 5-U ships and Tier 6 ships is the additional bridge officer ability. These abilities come in the form of Lieutenant Commander abilities, which are some of the strongest, most impactful abilities in the game. Some of the strongest offensive and defensive abilities are in the Lt. Commander slot, including the level 3 Sci/Tac/Eng Team abilities, Attack Pattern Omega 1, Gravity Well 1 and so on. Additional access to these abilities can make or break a ships performance, especially when they are used over the duration of a PvE or PvP event, and are certainly enough to push Tier 6 ships to be the only ships that are competitive in PvP environments. These abilities are far more powerful than built in abilities that are tacked on to some ships, like the subsystems targeting abilities on some cruisers and science ships, or even the recently released cruiser commands. But furthermore, now there will be Tier 6 ships available that have the built in abilities in addition to the bonus Lt. Commander ability, which continues to outclass anything that a Tier 5-U ship can offer.
When it comes to starship skills, ship mastery, and specialist bridge officer slots, we only have an initial picture from the development blogs of their impact, but they are certainly far from "Bells and Whistles." The starship traits that have been released so far include damage resistance buffs, bridge officer recharge buffs, and exotic particle damage buffs, all of which stack on an incredibly regular basis. These are not the kinds of immaterial changes that would be referred to as "Bells and Whistles," but rather these starship traits drastically affect strategic choices when deciding on a build, and increase the effectiveness of the ship by a great deal. Additionally, the intel abilities give a hearty edge to the Tier 6 Intel ships, and further push Tier 5-U ships out of the realm of playability during PvP events. Given the damage and damage resistance buffs granted by the intel abilities, there would be no way for a Tier 5-U ship to be competitive against a Tier 6 ship in PvP, and it is all but guaranteed that a Tier 6 ship would significantly outperform a Tier 5-U in any PvE event.
- SOLUTIONS
Tier 5-U ships are not the solution here, all that does is make the disparity between Tier 5 and Tier 6 ships smaller, it certainly does not make Tier 5 ships competitive with Tier 6 ones. Previous solutions in the game have been more expensive, but have allowed players to play with the ships that they are attached to, and that is the release of "retrofit" and fleet versions of lower tiered ships that are legitimate Tier 5 ships. Release Tier 6 retrofits, possibly as advanced retrofit versions, of existing Tier 5 ships is the only answer that allows for older ships to be truly competitive amongst the newest echelons of ships. Yes, it is probably more expensive, but at the same time allows players to continue to play the ships they love, while also creating a new tier of ships. This could be accomplished by releasing new versions in the Zen and Lobi stores of Tier 6 versions of existing ships, and could even be offered at a discount for players that have a current version of the ship, or by offering Tier 6 upgrade modules, similar to way people currently get top-tier versions of T5 Ships via Fleet Ships . This would also prevent the new ships from being heavily devalued as the excitement over new ships is always already high among the player base (as long as they don't feel that these new ships are the only way to be competitive).
- EXPENSIVE DIGITAL PAPERWEIGHTS
When it comes down to it, Tier 5-U ships aren't a compromise, they are still unfortunately going to be unplayable for players who expect to be able to compete with each other. The problem with Tier 5-U ships is that they will be too much of a downgrade from the new Tier 6 ships. Right now ships like the Mirror Universe ships that come out of the lock box system are technically Tier 5, they are certainly not competitive with the ships at the highest level of Tier 5 (like the Lobi store ships, Zen store ships, or even ships from the Summer and Winter Events). Currently players can choose to compromise and use a Mirror Universe ship because they're cheaper, but players should not have to compromise when it comes to the entire fleet of ships released in the past 4 years. Sure, you'll be able to complete a PvE queue or a storyline mission with a Tier 5-U ship, but you'll be doing so at a noticeable handicap to anyone doing the same in a Tier 6 ship. PvP and high level PvE queues (like No-Win Scenario) may be physically accessible with a Tier 5-U ship, but don't expect to win. Right now I don't show up to PvP with a Mirror Universe Patrol Escort (for obvious reasons) and come October, even showing up in a bug ship will be a losing proposition. With the release of Tier 6 ships, everything we've worked on for the past 4 years will be expensive digital paperweights, holding space in our ship inventory for nostalgia purposes only, which doesn't seem like a solid solution for people who have spent a great amount of time and money securing their favorite ships. Releasing Tier 6 retrofits of current Tier 5 ships is truly the only way to ensure that these ships will remain competitive at level 60, hopefully PWE figures that out and offers us better options.
I know I'm not alone in the group of players that really cares about their ship and hopes that a solution is offered to help preserve the ships that we collectively have spent a lot of time obtaining. Thanks for reading, I hope we can continue the conversation about ways to best address this issue given its effect on a great number of players.
Well since as of today they haven't even finished getting fleet ship upgrades added to tribble the chance of them changing their mind and redoing all the upgrade ships to Full T6 is improbable in the month left before DR launches.
If "Full T6 or I quit" is your stance you might want to start packing those digital bags now.
That has been my "stance" since page 30. Your overall point should be the fact that even though we nip it in the butt early, changes still are not made.
So from the looks of things, a great deal of folks who feel "ripped-off" about their T5 ships being *less than competitive* against T6 ships seem to define "competitive" as "being the absolute best and slaughtering your opponent before they can even react"...let me put it this way.
Round about when fleet ships were still pretty new, I got myself an Excelsior (Fleet)* and the first PvP match I went in with her went pretty well - considering that I had no special gear and was going against a slightly more experienced tactical player in a Fleet Armitage. We kept trading blows and I was expecting to be the first one down (which I was). However, I came back and - surprisingly - beat him. The rest of the match carried on like this with him getting the upper hand before having his backside handed back to him until one of us needed to go.
"Competitive" is not being the absolute best at everything because not everyone can be "the best". If all you think about is being the best, then you end up getting conceited and start complaining because things aren't going your way. Being competitive is being able to enjoy getting your backside handed to you and be able to do the same to your opponent the next time.
So from the looks of things, a great deal of folks who feel "ripped-off" about their T5 ships being *less than competitive* against T6 ships seem to define "competitive" as "being the absolute best and slaughtering your opponent before they can even react"...let me put it this way.
Round about when fleet ships were still pretty new, I got myself an Excelsior (Fleet)* and the first PvP match I went in with her went pretty well - considering that I had no special gear and was going against a slightly more experienced tactical player in a Fleet Armitage. We kept trading blows and I was expecting to be the first one down (which I was). However, I came back and - surprisingly - beat him. The rest of the match carried on like this with him getting the upper hand before having his backside handed back to him until one of us needed to go.
"Competitive" is not being the absolute best at everything because not everyone can be "the best". If all you think about is being the best, then you end up getting conceited and start complaining because things aren't going your way. Being competitive is being able to enjoy getting your backside handed to you and be able to do the same to your opponent the next time.
*The toon that has the Excelsior was an engineer.
I don't want anything for free. am not the best and don't play pvp. what I am saying is if I have to pay through the nose I'd like to get something for my money and some acknowledgement of the time an loyalty I've put in.
I'm a trekkie, not a gamer. I love my trek ships paid for them already played 3 years with some of them. would like the option of making them t6 willing to pay for that. when the only option is buy this ship or else, as the only true option given to us it is quite disheartening.
Yes this is what we have been saying. T5-U is half an upgrade for a dead-end ship and I'm not spending anything on it. Would be willing to pay for upgrade to full T6 but not for half upgrade to T5-U. Smart thing here would be to give T5-U for free to all 10-console ships (lockbox, lobi, rewards, fleet, and c-store 3-packs) and then sell a full T6 upgrade that will let you take base T5 to base T6. That way people could continue buying T5 ships knowing they had an upgrade path. With the current scheme cryptic is poking finger in the eye just because they can. At this point it is obvious they are committed to it and not changing course, I guess they think everybody will buy the T6 DR ships and the lockbox ships and they will make enough money to offset the losses from people like me who have sworn off spending anything on the game going forward. Maybe they are right. I dont care, its personal for me now and I no longer trust them at all.
Looking to the future, what will happen to our T5-U upgraded ships when T7 hits? Will we be able to upgrade them to full T6 then? or T6-U. This whole T6 business seems very shortsighted and there is missed opportunities to make money. Give us a paid option to upgrade our T5 to full T6. Pay 500 zen for T5-U, pay 1000 zen for full T6. Seems much more logical than what they are offering now.
Don't insult the intelligence of your player base please and please don't alienate those of us that want to fly the classic Hero ships from the TV series.
To those who see t6 ships as neccesary death to t5-U and lower ships, i beg to differ that if the lower tiered ship is flown by the right individual, then it has eery chance to destroy the t6 ship.
To those who see t6 ships as neccesary death to t5-U and lower ships, i beg to differ that if the lower tiered ship is flown by the right individual, then it has eery chance to destroy the t6 ship.
Strawman. Between players of equal skill, the player in the T6 is almost certainly going to beat the player in the T5-U.
Strawman. Between players of equal skill, the player in the T6 is almost certainly going to beat the player in the T5-U.
It depends on the T5 ship and how great the new console powers end up being. In most cases I think the T5 will be fine.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I think most people buy ships for the stats. If looks was the issue. Nobody would fly a xindi escort or bother upgradeing to fleet ships. Its all about the stats.
Not neccesarily I go for the luck of the ship I would never buy a fugly ship and that is why these Tier 6 ships will be ignored until they realease nice ones
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
QFT
I have been already suggesting your solution. T5-U is not an upgrade worth paying for. Therefore, full T6 or I quit. Its that simple.
You will possibly be one of the few who quit over this. To be honest I won't be surprised if DR is the worst expansion released it already looks to be lackluster to LOR in many ways but only time will tell
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
At no point did they say we would be wasting our money on a T5 either. We have what we paid for but what we paid for no longer holds the value we paid since both that and our gear are being rendered obsolete regardless of upgrades. It doesn't matter if other games do it, its sly and deceptive. I do not like it.
I don't want anything for free. am not the best and don't play pvp. what I am saying is if I have to pay through the nose I'd like to get something for my money and some acknowledgement of the time an loyalty I've put in.
I'm a trekkie, not a gamer. I love my trek ships paid for them already played 3 years with some of them. would like the option of making them t6 willing to pay for that. when the only option is buy this ship or else, as the only true option given to us it is quite disheartening.
Yeah, it'd be nice if the upgrade included +1 boff seat, if it did, T5U would be nearly the same as T6.
Yeah, those aren't free either,Yeah, it'd be nice if the upgrade included +1 boff seat, if it did, T5U would be nearly the same as T6.
Except, with the Iphones, I'd be upgrading from an Iphone 5 to an Iphone 6. Not to an Iphone 5-FU. . This isn't reality, its a game. You can't compare it to a phone. Stay on topic. See... (like I've said) I would pay for the upgrade if it was an actual full upgrade. But it's not, therefore, why invest money into upgrading my old ships at all? It would be wiser to buy the new T6 ships. But I would be giving up what I've put into my old ship. So does all our grinding and money spent mean nothing? I ground for end-game equipment. I paid for end-game ships. Now neither are end-game. How is that fair? I'm not whining, you, among others, are sensitive to the truth. Its time we all man-up and face facts.
Its perfectly fine to handicap yourself in solo play, but its wholly unacceptable in competitive play
PVP and advanced PVE is not going to be okay to bring T5 versus flleet/lockbox T6 with all the advantages
what if I get first place (if they have it)?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
So, I guess competitors will be buying the best or quitting?
It depends on the competitor of course. To me, PVP is the only part of this game that I find to be enjoyable (actually makes me laugh) while everything else is a tedious grind that's only to feed the PVP habit. I know some competitors who try to scoreboard ISE or NWS as the final game for them, they will probably have different thoughts.
Four distinct options that I see:
1) Pay for half-upgrades to dead-end T5 ships for minor gains with no future potential. Other ships in end-game will be fleet/lockbox T6 with all the benefits plus-plus, so this is just a flat-out waste of money that gets you nothing except faster play through the single-player content that end-gamers dont care about. Also for me personally I have too many ships to justify buying half-upgrades anyway, not spending $100-200 for dead-end half-upgrades that dont actually get me anything, I might as well put a match to a pile of money for what it would give me.
2) Start over with new T6. This would mean putting the existing ships into storage and starting over from scratch with new ships. This is basically a scale-down in activity, going from 4 ships per toon to 1 ship on a couple of toons. And it only makes me competitive until cryptic wants to shake the money tree again.
3) Do nothing and just F2P with your free junk, whatever, just super casual. What most of the non-competitive types do anyway. This means run through the scripted single-player content once or twice, then snooze, because you'll be walking away from end-game advanced gameplay anyway. A complete shift in gameplay.
4) Start over somewhere else. If you gotta start over, nothing says you gotta do it here. And if your other option is reduce your gameplay, nothing says you cant pick up another interest. And you know, the gameplay here isn't very good. Opportunity for a clean break does not present itself very often.
Its interesting that paid upgrade to T6 isnt on that list, yeah? The only one that says, hey end-gamer stay a while and give us more of your time and money, here's a discount for all you've put into the game so far. Interesting defined by its absence. I can take a hint.
So right now I'm doing #4 and have already started spending my monthly game budget on MWO. When DR is released I will poke around at the new content with whatever ships were upgraded but thats all. I'm not going to become competitive end-gamer here again.
Except, with the Iphones, I'd be upgrading from an Iphone 5 to an Iphone 6. Not to an Iphone 5-FU. . This isn't reality, its a game. You can't compare it to a phone. Stay on topic. See... (like I've said) I would pay for the upgrade if it was an actual full upgrade. But it's not, therefore, why invest money into upgrading my old ships at all? It would be wiser to buy the new T6 ships. But I would be giving up what I've put into my old ship. So does all our grinding and money spent mean nothing? I ground for end-game equipment. I paid for end-game ships. Now neither are end-game. How is that fair? I'm not whining, you, among others, are sensitive to the truth. Its time we all man-up and face facts.
Actually, yes I CAN compare it to an I-phone. :P
See, in both cases you buy a product, then the company later offers a better product for another higher price. Thus leaving you with three options; use the old product, buy a new product at full price, or upgrade.
See? yes it does compare quite nicely. In both cases the company has no reason to give you anything. they make the new product so they can sell it. It's kinda the entire reason to make a new product at all.
See, in both cases you buy a product, then the company later offers a better product for another higher price. Thus leaving you with three options; use the old product, buy a new product at full price, or upgrade.
See? yes it does compare quite nicely. In both cases the company has no reason to give you anything. they make the new product so they can sell it. It's kinda the entire reason to make a new product at all.
You're comparing hardware to software. Disingenuous at best.
Try comparing software to software where full upgrades are common. We can even see what Apple does, to keep the same company---omg FREE UPGRADE how is that possible :mad: Or we could stick to Cryptic... are they giving a free upgrade to STO? Anybody paying for Delta Rising content? Ahhh help me logic, I've fallen and I cant get up!
Of course they could give whatever upgrade they wanted, its just bits
It depends on the competitor of course. To me, PVP is the only part of this game that I find to be enjoyable (actually makes me laugh) while everything else is a tedious grind that's only to feed the PVP habit. I know some competitors who try to scoreboard ISE or NWS as the final game for them, they will probably have different thoughts.
Four distinct options that I see:
1) Pay for half-upgrades to dead-end T5 ships for minor gains with no future potential. Other ships in end-game will be fleet/lockbox T6 with all the benefits plus-plus, so this is just a flat-out waste of money that gets you nothing except faster play through the single-player content that end-gamers dont care about. Also for me personally I have too many ships to justify buying half-upgrades anyway, not spending $100-200 for dead-end half-upgrades that dont actually get me anything, I might as well put a match to a pile of money for what it would give me.
2) Start over with new T6. This would mean putting the existing ships into storage and starting over from scratch with new ships. This is basically a scale-down in activity, going from 4 ships per toon to 1 ship on a couple of toons. And it only makes me competitive until cryptic wants to shake the money tree again.
3) Do nothing and just F2P with your free junk, whatever, just super casual. What most of the non-competitive types do anyway. This means run through the scripted single-player content once or twice, then snooze, because you'll be walking away from end-game advanced gameplay anyway. A complete shift in gameplay.
4) Start over somewhere else. If you gotta start over, nothing says you gotta do it here. And if your other option is reduce your gameplay, nothing says you cant pick up another interest. And you know, the gameplay here isn't very good. Opportunity for a clean break does not present itself very often.
Its interesting that paid upgrade to T6 isnt on that list, yeah? The only one that says, hey end-gamer stay a while and give us more of your time and money, here's a discount for all you've put into the game so far. Interesting defined by its absence. I can take a hint.
So right now I'm doing #4 and have already started spending my monthly game budget on MWO. When DR is released I will poke around at the new content with whatever ships were upgraded but thats all. I'm not going to become competitive end-gamer here again.
Well, Cryptic does have a history of pushing bad design choices to live then performing spectacular backflips when it blows up in their faces on the servers. So it's entirely possible they'll fix the barn door after the horse has escaped. Of course by this point you'd think they would have figured it all out.
There have been plenty of great posts that highlight the T5U upgrade issues a lot of players have with the current design and many of those same people have provided feedback to improve the system.
You could easily charge 50 to 100k dilithium to upgrade a ship to T5U and charge zen for a full tier 6 upgrade. But in making such a suggestion I would expect one of two likely responses, it would cost too much money or it would be too much work.
Such a change would also hurt future sales for ships as any T6 ship released would now feature some awesome trait that makes up for the ugly or poor stat and power layout. Why should I buy more ships when I already have loads of traits?
My personal opinion as a gamer is that Dilithium for T5U and paid T5 to 6 and Fleet 5 to Fleet 6 should be a thing. Stage the release of available ships if need be, Cryptic should be able to create a list of ships to apply traits and release to the general population based on what people are currently using.
If you're going to nickle and dime us then fine, but at least give me something that I actually want to pay money for. Otherwise I'll continue to do as I have for the past few months to a year and give money to other games.
A few ( hundred ) pages back, someone said that most MmOs charge for the xpac that come out and that cryptic does not . Well I say to that is who would pay for the sorry excuse of an expac ? You got half a faction, 5-10 ships and a "adventure" zone( lor) . If a popular gaming franchise did that, people would lol and quit . And this next one DR looks to have the same amount of content . I'm sad that sto had so much potential and its been wasted on this..
See, in both cases you buy a product, then the company later offers a better product for another higher price. Thus leaving you with three options; use the old product, buy a new product at full price, or upgrade.
See? yes it does compare quite nicely. In both cases the company has no reason to give you anything. they make the new product so they can sell it. It's kinda the entire reason to make a new product at all.
Your Analogy works fine when it came to the 5 to the 5c as they were the same thing but with a few bells and whistles but going from 5 to iphone 6 is a full upgrade like going to Tier 6 something that I have very little interest in doing either.
NO TO ARC
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I paid twenty-five dollars for the Avenger. I also paid five for the fleet mod but I don't think that bears too much on this. We can compare the FT5 to FT6 later when Cryptic gets them out. Comparing a FT5-U to a T6 is just going to close the gap between the two but they still won't be equal.
These T5-U are going to cost five to ten dollars. We don't know exactly which yet. That is thirty to thirty-five dollars for a T5-U that is not going to be equal to a T6. Yet this upgrade cost is going to be "significantly lower than if you were to purchase a Tier 6 ship." That line is what concerns me. Are these T6 ships going to forty dollars? Fifty dollars? The prices in the C-Store already concern me and adding in a new tier of ships at a higher price point has made me shake my head no. That is unless Cryptic keeps the twenty-five dollar as their limit and reorganize their prices to match it all.
The other option is that they aren't including the base price($25). So they are only meaning the five to ten dollars is significantly lower than a T6. Could be a thirty dollar ship then. That hits my All Points Bulletin and MechWarrior Online levels of nope.
As for this T5-U not being T6 thing I don't really like it. T6 ships are adding in a Lt. Com slot. Unless I'm wrong. If so feel free to call me an idiot and ignore the rest of this paragraph. If it is true, that is a massive power boost. That is one more power to be slotted in compared to the T5-U. That means these ships are not competitive. "Bah Frozen it is just one Lt. Com power. What is the big deal?" Pick a Team Level 3, Emergency Power to X, Hazard Emitters 3, BFAW3, Gravity Well 1 and the list goes on.
These Intel ships are the new class. If they aren't then I'm going to be surprised. Personally I was expecting new dreadnoughts done uniquely but I like the big ships. Anyway Intels get a Lt. Com (Intel), built in cloak, vulnerability (expose) ability, have higher turn rates and a unique console. All of this for less health. I am curious to see what non-Intel T6 ships look like. Maybe they have a base level 50 HP of 50k. Jeeze that would be easy to turtle. Anyway I'm all for Intels being unique.
They do need enough things to make it feel like a unique "class" of ships. I wonder if that is too much though? I think Feds don't need the cloak. That is my bias though. I am a firm believer that the Feds don't really use cloaking tech. Sure some ships have it available but each faction has things that are unique to them. Feds don't need cloak, we are already cool. The less health, more turning, expose/exploit mechanic and console are enough.
T5-U should exist. I think -R would fit the lore better but that's a story niggle. Also -R would look odd on some ships like Patrol Escort Refit -R. Hmm. However base T5-U ships should be equal to base T6s. These aren't Intel ships. They don't get hybrid slots, expose/exploit, and I'm even willing to not allow ship traits. I would pay five dollars for matching health, bridge officer level (PER would be odd to set), and having 1-4 mastery. I wouldn't pay ten. I'll buy a bunch of games off of GOG. Anyway those are just my random thoughts on the subject. Thank you for reading and have a good night.
I paid twenty-five dollars for the Avenger. I also paid five for the fleet mod but I don't think that bears too much on this. We can compare the FT5 to FT6 later when Cryptic gets them out. Comparing a FT5-U to a T6 is just going to close the gap between the two but they still won't be equal.
These T5-U are going to cost five to ten dollars. We don't know exactly which yet. That is thirty to thirty-five dollars for a T5-U that is not going to be equal to a T6. Yet this upgrade cost is going to be "significantly lower than if you were to purchase a Tier 6 ship." That line is what concerns me. Are these T6 ships going to forty dollars? Fifty dollars? The prices in the C-Store already concern me and adding in a new tier of ships at a higher price point has made me shake my head no. That is unless Cryptic keeps the twenty-five dollar as their limit and reorganize their prices to match it all.
The other option is that they aren't including the base price($25). So they are only meaning the five to ten dollars is significantly lower than a T6. Could be a thirty dollar ship then. That hits my All Points Bulletin and MechWarrior Online levels of nope.
As for this T5-U not being T6 thing I don't really like it. T6 ships are adding in a Lt. Com slot. Unless I'm wrong. If so feel free to call me an idiot and ignore the rest of this paragraph. If it is true, that is a massive power boost. That is one more power to be slotted in compared to the T5-U. That means these ships are not competitive. "Bah Frozen it is just one Lt. Com power. What is the big deal?" Pick a Team Level 3, Emergency Power to X, Hazard Emitters 3, BFAW3, Gravity Well 1 and the list goes on.
These Intel ships are the new class. If they aren't then I'm going to be surprised. Personally I was expecting new dreadnoughts done uniquely but I like the big ships. Anyway Intels get a Lt. Com (Intel), built in cloak, vulnerability (expose) ability, have higher turn rates and a unique console. All of this for less health. I am curious to see what non-Intel T6 ships look like. Maybe they have a base level 50 HP of 50k. Jeeze that would be easy to turtle. Anyway I'm all for Intels being unique.
They do need enough things to make it feel like a unique "class" of ships. I wonder if that is too much though? I think Feds don't need the cloak. That is my bias though. I am a firm believer that the Feds don't really use cloaking tech. Sure some ships have it available but each faction has things that are unique to them. Feds don't need cloak, we are already cool. The less health, more turning, expose/exploit mechanic and console are enough.
T5-U should exist. I think -R would fit the lore better but that's a story niggle. Also -R would look odd on some ships like Patrol Escort Refit -R. Hmm. However base T5-U ships should be equal to base T6s. These aren't Intel ships. They don't get hybrid slots, expose/exploit, and I'm even willing to not allow ship traits. I would pay five dollars for matching health, bridge officer level (PER would be odd to set), and having 1-4 mastery. I wouldn't pay ten. I'll buy a bunch of games off of GOG. Anyway those are just my random thoughts on the subject. Thank you for reading and have a good night.
Yeah, giving an extra Lt Com or at least LT BO slot would allevate some of the difference.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
There's a curious example of a comparison to be made with the D'Kyr and the Scryer because of many similarities between the two ships, imho.
T5-U D'Kyr vs. T6 Scryer
+10% base hull modifier
+5% base shield modifier
+100 crew
-3 turn
-0.02 impulse modifier
-25 inertia
+5 auxiliary power
-10 weapon power
+support craft
-slottable Sensor Probe Swarm console
-dual cannons
-cloak
+sensor analysis (not listed for Scryer)
-active sensor arrays/gather intelligence
-ability to unlock starship trait
Same Devices, same Console Layout, same 3/3 Weapon Layout, and both have Subsystem Targeting.
T5-U D'Kyr BOFF Layout
X, X X, X, X X, X, X, X
X, X
X
T6 Scryer BOFF Layout
O, O X, X, X O, O, O, O
X, X, X U
Where X is a standard seat, O is a hybrid seat, and U is a universal seat.
So for the Scryer, compared to the D'Kyr, the Lt Tac becomes Lt Tac/Intel, the Cmdr Sci becomes Cmdr Sci/Intel, the Lt Sci becomes LCdr Sci, and the Ens Sci becomes Ens Uni.
Which for me, is why the argument might be made that FT5-U ~ T6; but it's kind of hard to accept Cryptic's line of reasoning that T5-U ~ T6. If there was a FT5-U variant of the D'Kyr where it had +1 console, +10% hull, and +10% shield mod...then one might be able to start playing around with that FT5-U ~ T6. But the T5-U ~ T6...? Really? Hrmm, that's just...and then to add in a FT6 comparison somewhere down the line?
A few ( hundred ) pages back, someone said that most MmOs charge for the xpac that come out and that cryptic does not . Well I say to that is who would pay for the sorry excuse of an expac ? You got half a faction, 5-10 ships and a "adventure" zone( lor) . If a popular gaming franchise did that, people would lol and quit . And this next one DR looks to have the same amount of content . I'm sad that sto had so much potential and its been wasted on this..
PS. The T-6 ships are Tron approved .
on the tron look: already confirmed there will be classic hull materials available...dont like the tron lines, dont use em
on LoR:
lets not talk about the 20+ story missions, new romulus command, nukara prime, the PvE queues, UI overhaul, singularity mechanic, finished klingon storyline, the other 15 ships you forgot to mention (how convenient)....
delta rising-
level cap progression being screamed for by many for years
new intel mechanics
kobali adventure zone (epic)
delta quadrant
tons of story missions (ive played some of these and they are incredibly well made
voice overs from half the voyager crew (expensive as **** im sure)
overhaul of voyager interior
30-40 new NPC ships spoiler-> (malon, kazon, vaudwaar)
delta alliance command
specializations
8 new player acquireable ships
grappling hooks
Borg Disconnected (awesome PvE)
a NEW tier of difficulty
and MORE stuff still not announced yet
The fact of the matter is we bought or ground for the ships we have because they were top of the line AND suited our needs accordingly. By making them obsolete, regardless if you upgrade, leaves me regretting my time and money spent. Its never good to leave your customers, moreover, your players, with the feeling of regret. This applies to Mk XII gear as well. (if you don't feel regret than there's really no point in replying to this post other than to start an argument). It will make us speculative of future money or time spent on new content. Myself included. It would make me feel less regretful if I didn't have to worry about paying/grinding to make my ships semi-relevant. Although Cryptic/PWE has to make money, that is not as relevant as the opinions on the T5 upgrades. Argue it all you want but the fact is T5-U(T5-U11) is NOT T6 and therefore is not as "top of the line" as we already paid/ground for them to be.
Comments
Yes to all of this.
That has been my "stance" since page 30. Your overall point should be the fact that even though we nip it in the butt early, changes still are not made.
Round about when fleet ships were still pretty new, I got myself an Excelsior (Fleet)* and the first PvP match I went in with her went pretty well - considering that I had no special gear and was going against a slightly more experienced tactical player in a Fleet Armitage. We kept trading blows and I was expecting to be the first one down (which I was). However, I came back and - surprisingly - beat him. The rest of the match carried on like this with him getting the upper hand before having his backside handed back to him until one of us needed to go.
"Competitive" is not being the absolute best at everything because not everyone can be "the best". If all you think about is being the best, then you end up getting conceited and start complaining because things aren't going your way. Being competitive is being able to enjoy getting your backside handed to you and be able to do the same to your opponent the next time.
*The toon that has the Excelsior was an engineer.
I don't want anything for free. am not the best and don't play pvp. what I am saying is if I have to pay through the nose I'd like to get something for my money and some acknowledgement of the time an loyalty I've put in.
I'm a trekkie, not a gamer. I love my trek ships paid for them already played 3 years with some of them. would like the option of making them t6 willing to pay for that. when the only option is buy this ship or else, as the only true option given to us it is quite disheartening.
Don't insult the intelligence of your player base please and please don't alienate those of us that want to fly the classic Hero ships from the TV series.
galacticguards.enjin.com/
Formerly Jewkesman Member from Nov 2009!
Strawman. Between players of equal skill, the player in the T6 is almost certainly going to beat the player in the T5-U.
It depends on the T5 ship and how great the new console powers end up being. In most cases I think the T5 will be fine.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Not neccesarily I go for the luck of the ship I would never buy a fugly ship and that is why these Tier 6 ships will be ignored until they realease nice ones
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PVP and advanced PVE is not going to be okay to bring T5 versus flleet/lockbox T6 with all the advantages
You will possibly be one of the few who quit over this. To be honest I won't be surprised if DR is the worst expansion released it already looks to be lackluster to LOR in many ways but only time will tell
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, those aren't free either, Yeah, it'd be nice if the upgrade included +1 boff seat, if it did, T5U would be nearly the same as T6.
My character Tsin'xing
You and me both
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well at least there is something to look forward too. Goodbye.
what if I get first place (if they have it)?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
As a PvE-er, I'm okay with using T-5U and will happily pay for the upgrade. It *is* an upgrade because it is more than what it was previously.
Four distinct options that I see:
1) Pay for half-upgrades to dead-end T5 ships for minor gains with no future potential. Other ships in end-game will be fleet/lockbox T6 with all the benefits plus-plus, so this is just a flat-out waste of money that gets you nothing except faster play through the single-player content that end-gamers dont care about. Also for me personally I have too many ships to justify buying half-upgrades anyway, not spending $100-200 for dead-end half-upgrades that dont actually get me anything, I might as well put a match to a pile of money for what it would give me.
2) Start over with new T6. This would mean putting the existing ships into storage and starting over from scratch with new ships. This is basically a scale-down in activity, going from 4 ships per toon to 1 ship on a couple of toons. And it only makes me competitive until cryptic wants to shake the money tree again.
3) Do nothing and just F2P with your free junk, whatever, just super casual. What most of the non-competitive types do anyway. This means run through the scripted single-player content once or twice, then snooze, because you'll be walking away from end-game advanced gameplay anyway. A complete shift in gameplay.
4) Start over somewhere else. If you gotta start over, nothing says you gotta do it here. And if your other option is reduce your gameplay, nothing says you cant pick up another interest. And you know, the gameplay here isn't very good. Opportunity for a clean break does not present itself very often.
Its interesting that paid upgrade to T6 isnt on that list, yeah? The only one that says, hey end-gamer stay a while and give us more of your time and money, here's a discount for all you've put into the game so far. Interesting defined by its absence. I can take a hint.
So right now I'm doing #4 and have already started spending my monthly game budget on MWO. When DR is released I will poke around at the new content with whatever ships were upgraded but thats all. I'm not going to become competitive end-gamer here again.
See, in both cases you buy a product, then the company later offers a better product for another higher price. Thus leaving you with three options; use the old product, buy a new product at full price, or upgrade.
See? yes it does compare quite nicely. In both cases the company has no reason to give you anything. they make the new product so they can sell it. It's kinda the entire reason to make a new product at all.
My character Tsin'xing
You're comparing hardware to software. Disingenuous at best.
Try comparing software to software where full upgrades are common. We can even see what Apple does, to keep the same company---omg FREE UPGRADE how is that possible :mad: Or we could stick to Cryptic... are they giving a free upgrade to STO? Anybody paying for Delta Rising content? Ahhh help me logic, I've fallen and I cant get up!
Of course they could give whatever upgrade they wanted, its just bits
Well, Cryptic does have a history of pushing bad design choices to live then performing spectacular backflips when it blows up in their faces on the servers. So it's entirely possible they'll fix the barn door after the horse has escaped. Of course by this point you'd think they would have figured it all out.
There have been plenty of great posts that highlight the T5U upgrade issues a lot of players have with the current design and many of those same people have provided feedback to improve the system.
You could easily charge 50 to 100k dilithium to upgrade a ship to T5U and charge zen for a full tier 6 upgrade. But in making such a suggestion I would expect one of two likely responses, it would cost too much money or it would be too much work.
Such a change would also hurt future sales for ships as any T6 ship released would now feature some awesome trait that makes up for the ugly or poor stat and power layout. Why should I buy more ships when I already have loads of traits?
My personal opinion as a gamer is that Dilithium for T5U and paid T5 to 6 and Fleet 5 to Fleet 6 should be a thing. Stage the release of available ships if need be, Cryptic should be able to create a list of ships to apply traits and release to the general population based on what people are currently using.
If you're going to nickle and dime us then fine, but at least give me something that I actually want to pay money for. Otherwise I'll continue to do as I have for the past few months to a year and give money to other games.
PS. The T-6 ships are Tron approved .
Your Analogy works fine when it came to the 5 to the 5c as they were the same thing but with a few bells and whistles but going from 5 to iphone 6 is a full upgrade like going to Tier 6 something that I have very little interest in doing either.
Vice Admiral Volmack ISS Thundermole
Brigadier General Jokag IKS Gorkan
Centurion Kares RRW Tomalak
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
These T5-U are going to cost five to ten dollars. We don't know exactly which yet. That is thirty to thirty-five dollars for a T5-U that is not going to be equal to a T6. Yet this upgrade cost is going to be "significantly lower than if you were to purchase a Tier 6 ship." That line is what concerns me. Are these T6 ships going to forty dollars? Fifty dollars? The prices in the C-Store already concern me and adding in a new tier of ships at a higher price point has made me shake my head no. That is unless Cryptic keeps the twenty-five dollar as their limit and reorganize their prices to match it all.
The other option is that they aren't including the base price($25). So they are only meaning the five to ten dollars is significantly lower than a T6. Could be a thirty dollar ship then. That hits my All Points Bulletin and MechWarrior Online levels of nope.
As for this T5-U not being T6 thing I don't really like it. T6 ships are adding in a Lt. Com slot. Unless I'm wrong. If so feel free to call me an idiot and ignore the rest of this paragraph. If it is true, that is a massive power boost. That is one more power to be slotted in compared to the T5-U. That means these ships are not competitive. "Bah Frozen it is just one Lt. Com power. What is the big deal?" Pick a Team Level 3, Emergency Power to X, Hazard Emitters 3, BFAW3, Gravity Well 1 and the list goes on.
These Intel ships are the new class. If they aren't then I'm going to be surprised. Personally I was expecting new dreadnoughts done uniquely but I like the big ships. Anyway Intels get a Lt. Com (Intel), built in cloak, vulnerability (expose) ability, have higher turn rates and a unique console. All of this for less health. I am curious to see what non-Intel T6 ships look like. Maybe they have a base level 50 HP of 50k. Jeeze that would be easy to turtle. Anyway I'm all for Intels being unique.
They do need enough things to make it feel like a unique "class" of ships. I wonder if that is too much though? I think Feds don't need the cloak. That is my bias though. I am a firm believer that the Feds don't really use cloaking tech. Sure some ships have it available but each faction has things that are unique to them. Feds don't need cloak, we are already cool. The less health, more turning, expose/exploit mechanic and console are enough.
T5-U should exist. I think -R would fit the lore better but that's a story niggle. Also -R would look odd on some ships like Patrol Escort Refit -R. Hmm. However base T5-U ships should be equal to base T6s. These aren't Intel ships. They don't get hybrid slots, expose/exploit, and I'm even willing to not allow ship traits. I would pay five dollars for matching health, bridge officer level (PER would be odd to set), and having 1-4 mastery. I wouldn't pay ten. I'll buy a bunch of games off of GOG. Anyway those are just my random thoughts on the subject. Thank you for reading and have a good night.
Yeah, giving an extra Lt Com or at least LT BO slot would allevate some of the difference.
T5-U D'Kyr vs. T6 Scryer
+10% base hull modifier
+5% base shield modifier
+100 crew
-3 turn
-0.02 impulse modifier
-25 inertia
+5 auxiliary power
-10 weapon power
+support craft
-slottable Sensor Probe Swarm console
-dual cannons
-cloak
+sensor analysis (not listed for Scryer)
-active sensor arrays/gather intelligence
-ability to unlock starship trait
Same Devices, same Console Layout, same 3/3 Weapon Layout, and both have Subsystem Targeting.
T5-U D'Kyr BOFF Layout
X, X
X, X, X
X, X, X, X
X, X
X
T6 Scryer BOFF Layout
O, O
X, X, X
O, O, O, O
X, X, X
U
Where X is a standard seat, O is a hybrid seat, and U is a universal seat.
So for the Scryer, compared to the D'Kyr, the Lt Tac becomes Lt Tac/Intel, the Cmdr Sci becomes Cmdr Sci/Intel, the Lt Sci becomes LCdr Sci, and the Ens Sci becomes Ens Uni.
Which for me, is why the argument might be made that FT5-U ~ T6; but it's kind of hard to accept Cryptic's line of reasoning that T5-U ~ T6. If there was a FT5-U variant of the D'Kyr where it had +1 console, +10% hull, and +10% shield mod...then one might be able to start playing around with that FT5-U ~ T6. But the T5-U ~ T6...? Really? Hrmm, that's just...and then to add in a FT6 comparison somewhere down the line?
on the tron look: already confirmed there will be classic hull materials available...dont like the tron lines, dont use em
on LoR:
lets not talk about the 20+ story missions, new romulus command, nukara prime, the PvE queues, UI overhaul, singularity mechanic, finished klingon storyline, the other 15 ships you forgot to mention (how convenient)....
delta rising-
level cap progression being screamed for by many for years
new intel mechanics
kobali adventure zone (epic)
delta quadrant
tons of story missions (ive played some of these and they are incredibly well made
voice overs from half the voyager crew (expensive as **** im sure)
overhaul of voyager interior
30-40 new NPC ships spoiler-> (malon, kazon, vaudwaar)
delta alliance command
specializations
8 new player acquireable ships
grappling hooks
Borg Disconnected (awesome PvE)
a NEW tier of difficulty
and MORE stuff still not announced yet