As for the Avenger? It's basically a Klingon ship.
Ah yes the KDF player logic...
If we do not like the news dismiss it.
The console it self's as a quoted that FEDs are researching cloaks... it's in game.. but hell lets dismiss it.
The Federation after decades of war builds a cloak capable warship.. its in game.. but lets dismiss it as well.
This is about the evolution in STO and how it pertains to the Federation and it lacking a tech that for one we know it can make and two is no longer bound by treaty not to make.
It has nothing to do with factions. People play the KDF not just for cloaks.. so stop with that argument. You guys only argument is if the Feds get them then no one will play the KDF.. well hate to break it.. for one has nothing to do with Feds moving to more cloaking tech, seconded that's a game development issue not a lore issue.
We all will agree that the KDF is lacking ships and customization options. This is a totally different issue and can not be used as a excuse for Federation not to be developing cloak based ships. Game balance wise cloak needs a overhaul its that simple, KDF needs more attention to there ship numbers and class's, and the Feds need to have more cloak options as the Federation and all factions evolves in this new time period of STO.
With season 2 hitting us soon this would be a good time for cryptic to address the above issues. Or at least address the ship number differences.
The console it self's as a quoted that FEDs are researching cloaks... it's in game.. but hell lets dismiss it.
The Federation after decades of war builds a cloak capable warship.. its in game.. but lets dismiss it as well.
This is about the evolution in STO and how it pertains to the Federation and it lacking a tech that for one we know it can make and two is no longer bound by treaty not to make.
It has nothing to do with factions. People play the KDF not just for cloaks.. so stop with that argument. You guys only argument is if the Feds get them then no one will play the KDF.. well hate to break it.. for one has nothing to do with Feds moving to more cloaking tech, seconded that's a game development issue not a lore issue.
We all will agree that the KDF is lacking ships and customization options. This is a totally different issue and can not be used as a excuse for Federation not to be developing cloak based ships. Game balance wise cloak needs a overhaul its that simple, KDF needs more attention to there ship numbers and class's, and the Feds need to have more cloak options as the Federation and all factions evolves in this new time period of STO.
With season 2 hitting us soon this would be a good time for cryptic to address the above issues. Or at least address the ship number differences.
the issue with the KDF is that they don't really design new ships. Time and time again they upgrade current classes when needed and only make a new class when nessecary. They should get zen retro fits so they aren't screwed in the fleet ship issue and i would like to kitbash my Ktinga. But Cryptic does have an easy option. Make playable version of the Orion, Gorn, and Nasican ships
Face Cryptic screwed up when the game was launch and the KDF should have been a fully function faction then.
the similarities between AGT and STO are too hard to ignore. And Oberth is a 130 year old design but the Pegasus was not a standard Oberth. She was a test bed for the tech used on the Galaxy family and the Phase cloak WORKED.
Why the feds want cloak is down to 2 reasons. 1: Kerrat. 2: we are tired of giving up a console slot for a cloak. it should be integrated like the rest of the games cloaks.
Federation didn't use cloaks only due to treaty for peace. Okeg try to keep the peace when he signed that order. It failed so it can be reasonable made that the order has since been countermanned.
What similarities are those? Honest question, I want to know.
You are correct in that the Pegasus was a test-bed, and that when the Ent-D used the Phase Cloak it did work, but if memory serves (haven't watched that episode in awhile) Geordi wasn't sure how long it would last.
I have nothing against number 2 there. I used to, but not anymore. Number 1 on the other hand...Since when does PvP have squat to do with anything? I ask that as a PvPer. Why would anything involving PvP be justification enough to give more Fed cloaks when ALL I seem to hear all the time at least on the forums is..."PvP doesn't matter" or "Nobody plays PvP" and so on. So why does it matter now? In Ker'rat at the bare minimum Feds usually have the numbers advantage, and generally tend to have at least one or more Romulans and possibly a snooper, so what are Feds losing? If you are dying to decloaking attacks despite all that, then that's an entirely different issue not about more Fed cloaks.
The console it self's as a quoted that FEDs are researching cloaks... it's in game.. but hell lets dismiss it.
The Federation after decades of war builds a cloak capable warship.. its in game.. but lets dismiss it as well.
This is about the evolution in STO and how it pertains to the Federation and it lacking a tech that for one we know it can make and two is no longer bound by treaty not to make.
It has nothing to do with factions. People play the KDF not just for cloaks.. so stop with that argument. You guys only argument is if the Feds get them then no one will play the KDF.. well hate to break it.. for one has nothing to do with Feds moving to more cloaking tech, seconded that's a game development issue not a lore issue.
the Feds need to have more cloak options as the Federation and all factions evolves in this new time period of STO.
With season 2 hitting us soon this would be a good time for cryptic to address the above issues. Or at least address the ship number differences.
One could argue that you've (and others) been doing the exact same thing this whole thread. Something is clearly there, yet it is ignored.
"It has nothing to do with factions." Then what in the great Zamorak's name are we arguing about? If that's the case, then does it matter at all? If factions aren't the factor, then clearly Feds not getting more cloaks shouldn't make the smallest iota of difference to anyone on that logic. Nobody plays Feds after all for cloaks, they play them because they are the 'hero' faction of Star Trek and have many of the iconic ships from the shows and movies.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
What similarities are those? Honest question, I want to know.
You are correct in that the Pegasus was a test-bed, and that when the Ent-D used the Phase Cloak it did work, but if memory serves (haven't watched that episode in awhile) Geordi wasn't sure how long it would last.
ya and that was 40 years ago.. Voyager couldn't use quantum slip stream more then one time back then.. and yet we fly all over, all the time using it. Tech advances.
I have nothing against number 2 there. I used to, but not anymore. Number 1 on the other hand...Since when does PvP have squat to do with anything? I ask that as a PvPer. Why would anything involving PvP be justification enough to give more Fed cloaks when ALL I seem to hear all the time at least on the forums is..."PvP doesn't matter" or "Nobody plays PvP" and so on. So why does it matter now? In Ker'rat at the bare minimum Feds usually have the numbers advantage, and generally tend to have at least one or more Romulans and possibly a snooper, so what are Feds losing? If you are dying to decloaking attacks despite all that, then that's an entirely different issue not about more Fed cloaks.
totally trying to side step the issue.. So if its a PVE thing.. why do you care? If its a pvp thing the only reason you do not want Fed cloaks is you know its an advantage and you do want to lose it.. a very selfish attitude for sure. As stated many times Federation have no issue with KDF getting more ships.. one issue does not effect the other. They both need to be addressed.
One could argue that you've (and others) been doing the exact same thing this whole thread. Something is clearly there, yet it is ignored.
No we have not ignored anything, we have used in game lore and items that are FACT not made up. Its KDFers that have argued every way imaginable. The reason is the anti-fed cloaks have no ground anymore to stand on other then pitching a fit that its not fair to the KDF.
"It has nothing to do with factions." Then what in the great Zamorak's name are we arguing about? If that's the case, then does it matter at all? If factions aren't the factor, then clearly Feds not getting more cloaks shouldn't make the smallest iota of difference to anyone on that logic. Nobody plays Feds after all for cloaks, they play them because they are the 'hero' faction of Star Trek and have many of the iconic ships from the shows and movies.
good question why are you here arguing. We are discussing the lore and the cloak ability now that treaty and out law of Federation cloak tech is over. It's you that are arguing. It's you making up every reason under the sun to try to stop cloaks getting to the Federation. It's you being jealous of a faction that lets face it make more money then your primary faction so gets more eye candy then your faction. So ya why are you here? This is about Federation lore and the story arc that show Federation using cloaks. Cloaks in time will be in the Federation everything is already pointed that way.. with the development of cloak warships to the quote on the cloak console it self.
So how about stop whining that its not fair and look at helping your own faction get better and more ships. You have other races that are under represented in the KDF. More tank style cruisers (Gorn), more Sci type ships (Gorn) etc... How about work with Federation players on that then fighting them over this. I have myself been arguing for new KDF ships and Fleet ships (cough grumba, ya where was my fleet grumba).
So really you should be upset with Cryptic and voicing to them then keep starting fights in Federation forums.
Also it is 'expansion 2' not 'season 2'.
Pick a winning battle and Anti-Federation cloaks is not a winning battle... try fighting for Cryptic to get more KDF ships and flavor of ships... not picking fights on Federation forums.
When they bring up balance with the KDF they are... the bulk are KDF players.
So what - I play all 3 factions, and as a KDF player, I have no problem with the idea of my enemy using cloak.
But as a Federation player, I have a problem with using cloak. I think it is against the principle of the Federation as the good guys, and I really like being one of the good guys.
If we need better cloak counters, then give us cloak counters. Maybe give the Federation an Anti-Surprise Bonus taht grants +x % damage reduction to all attacks from cloaked vessels. (Yes, that means claok works poorly against us, but it would still work on Romulans or Klingons, and since both sides have Roms helping them, it's pretty interesting).
Give us the ability to see cloaked ships on the mini-map with sufficient Aux Power and skill bonuses, even if it's not enough to see through cloak.
That's the Federation way of dealing with cloak. Being able to counter it by better detection methods, and by being more prepared.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That's the Federation way of dealing with cloak. Being able to counter it by better detection methods, and by being more prepared.
Hehe, if you really want to be a pain in the aft, make a snooper that really does invest in Starship Sensors and stacks some Embassy Sensor consoles (I'd suggest the [HuH] and [ShH] because you'll be the primary target of cloakers). It's amazing the number of players that don't bother investing in Starship Stealth and expect their cloak to make them utterly invisible, and almost nobody is willing to sacrifice enough console space to counter a dedicated snooper; one snooper setup can reveal cloaked ships in a very large bubble for their teammates to attack.
If you caught it in the last Summer Giveaway, you already have free access to the T5 Nebula and can pick up the Fleet version for 1 FSM; the Tachyon Detection Grid is a nice addition as well.
Besides, if they do add a Phasing Cloak it'll be just as well-liked as the Phase Shift Generator. :P
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
So what - I play all 3 factions, and as a KDF player, I have no problem with the idea of my enemy using cloak.
As do I u have 3 in every faction.
But as a Federation player, I have a problem with using cloak. I think it is against the principle of the Federation as the good guys, and I really like being one of the good guys.
ya I guess Sisko was being the "bad guy" using a cloak. Sorry but cloaks are not bad or good it how they are used that make them that way. Using cloaked ships to sneak in and pullout civilians trapped behind enemy line is a good use. cloaking and deploying a WMD would be a bad way of using it.
If we need better cloak counters, then give us cloak counters. Maybe give the Federation an Anti-Surprise Bonus taht grants +x % damage reduction to all attacks from cloaked vessels. (Yes, that means claok works poorly against us, but it would still work on Romulans or Klingons, and since both sides have Roms helping them, it's pretty interesting).
Give us the ability to see cloaked ships on the mini-map with sufficient Aux Power and skill bonuses, even if it's not enough to see through cloak.
Cloak balance has always been a issue.. some how people think that having to totally specialize a ship to find a cloaked ship is balanced with ships getting the cloak that is effective with out having to do anything.
That's the Federation way of dealing with cloak. Being able to counter it by better detection methods, and by being more prepared.
it in the end doesn't mater what you think they should be like.. we were talking about what's in game.. and in game the Feds are researching cloaks and building cloak capable ships. The use of cloaks to save lives falls in what the Federation is about. sitting out there with a big target saying shoot me and costing lives is not.
Good and bad is subjective.. its what you do with what you have that determines good or bad use of a tech.
What similarities are those? Honest question, I want to know.
You are correct in that the Pegasus was a test-bed, and that when the Ent-D used the Phase Cloak it did work, but if memory serves (haven't watched that episode in awhile) Geordi wasn't sure how long it would last.
I have nothing against number 2 there. I used to, but not anymore. Number 1 on the other hand...Since when does PvP have squat to do with anything? I ask that as a PvPer. Why would anything involving PvP be justification enough to give more Fed cloaks when ALL I seem to hear all the time at least on the forums is..."PvP doesn't matter" or "Nobody plays PvP" and so on. So why does it matter now? In Ker'rat at the bare minimum Feds usually have the numbers advantage, and generally tend to have at least one or more Romulans and possibly a snooper, so what are Feds losing? If you are dying to decloaking attacks despite all that, then that's an entirely different issue not about more Fed cloaks.
One could argue that you've (and others) been doing the exact same thing this whole thread. Something is clearly there, yet it is ignored.
"It has nothing to do with factions." Then what in the great Zamorak's name are we arguing about? If that's the case, then does it matter at all? If factions aren't the factor, then clearly Feds not getting more cloaks shouldn't make the smallest iota of difference to anyone on that logic. Nobody plays Feds after all for cloaks, they play them because they are the 'hero' faction of Star Trek and have many of the iconic ships from the shows and movies.
Also it is 'expansion 2' not 'season 2'.
Similarity one. Federation and KDF no longer in an alliance, in AGT it was back to cold war while STO is declared war. But In AGT Riker had no problem destroying a Neghvar.
Similarity 2: RSE not an issue. In AGT the RSE was conquered by the KDF in STO it only exists as the Tal Shiar. THe Republic is a more effective government at this point.
STo is at just the right time for AGT so with STo you can say Q got it close.
I think Geordi was worried about the phasing aspect of the cloak not the cloak itself and did worked fine.
Pick a winning battle and Anti-Federation cloaks is not a winning battle... try fighting for Cryptic to get more KDF ships and flavor of ships... not picking fights on Federation forums.
I like that you are also still ignoring a lot of the points I brought up. I'm not about to try and pull out all the stuff you put in my last reply, as I really don't like it when people put their replies inside the quote, it's quite annoying.
A winning fight? Heh, I'd argue that I have chosen a winning fight in this case. It's been over four years into this game, and Feds have only 3 (or 6 depending on how you count fleet ships, and this is excluding lockbox ships) that can use the cloak console.
On the other end of the spectrum, trying to get more Klingon ships seems to be a losing fight all the time. They've pretty much said they have no plans at all to make more non-Klingon ships, so no further Gorn or Nausicaan or anything ships. The last ship we got was the Dyson 3 pack, and before that the Mogh (AFTER the Avenger), then the two low-level BoPs with LoR, and before that, the Bortasqu' 3 pack. So as you can tell, KDF don't tend to get much.
It's amazing the number of players that don't bother investing in Starship Stealth and expect their cloak to make them utterly invisible, and almost nobody is willing to sacrifice enough console space to counter a dedicated snooper; one snooper setup can reveal cloaked ships in a very large bubble for their teammates to attack.
People don't bother not speccing into stealth because they don't want to. They don't bother because the Starship Stealth skill SUCKS. You can have a ship with 4 sci console slots and Embassy level sci consoles for Stealth slotted in all of them plus 99 spec, max aux, and a Romulan BOFF and BARELY get 100 or 200 more stealth at best out of the entire thing.
Similarity one. Federation and KDF no longer in an alliance, in AGT it was back to cold war while STO is declared war. But In AGT Riker had no problem destroying a Neghvar.
Similarity 2: RSE not an issue. In AGT the RSE was conquered by the KDF in STO it only exists as the Tal Shiar. THe Republic is a more effective government at this point.
STo is at just the right time for AGT so with STo you can say Q got it close.
I think Geordi was worried about the phasing aspect of the cloak not the cloak itself and did worked fine.
Ok, on the first point, quite correct. In AGT the Feds and Klingons were not in the greatest of states diplomacy-wise. In STO there was war and a recent ceasefire.
In AGT the RSE was totally conquered by the Klingons, also true, won't deny it. HOWEVER, in STO, I've yet to see enough proof to say that the RSE is totally gone. Weakened, yes, possibly even fractured, but gone completely...not so much.
The point of what Q did to Picard in AGT wasn't really about showing him the future or the past though, it was about seeing if he would 'expand his mind', which he did.
Now, if STO had followed the timeline of AGT, I wouldn't be arguing this at all. Heck, in AGT when Riker used his cloak, Picard and the others didn't even bat an eyelash about the 'horrible Fed cloak', because it was clearly stated that in that timeline (and only that timeline so far as I can tell) the RSE was 100% gone, so there was no more treaty as such.
In STO however, that total conquering of the RSE by the Klingons didn't happen. Yes there were attacks that the Klingons made to regain some lost ground, but not all the way. They also had no qualms about allying with the RR.
As for the phase cloak...after watching the episode, Geordi was worried about the plasma relays, as the phase cloak could overload them. The cloak itself seemed to work just fine (and Pressman even had quite the proud smirk on his face as it did), but the plasma relays being overloaded is what was the most likely cause of what happened to the Pegasus.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I like that you are also still ignoring a lot of the points I brought up. I'm not about to try and pull out all the stuff you put in my last reply, as I really don't like it when people put their replies inside the quote, it's quite annoying.
A winning fight? Heh, I'd argue that I have chosen a winning fight in this case. It's been over four years into this game, and Feds have only 3 (or 6 depending on how you count fleet ships, and this is excluding lockbox ships) that can use the cloak console.
On the other end of the spectrum, trying to get more Klingon ships seems to be a losing fight all the time. They've pretty much said they have no plans at all to make more non-Klingon ships, so no further Gorn or Nausicaan or anything ships. The last ship we got was the Dyson 3 pack, and before that the Mogh (AFTER the Avenger), then the two low-level BoPs with LoR, and before that, the Bortasqu' 3 pack. So as you can tell, KDF don't tend to get much.
People don't bother not speccing into stealth because they don't want to. They don't bother because the Starship Stealth skill SUCKS. You can have a ship with 4 sci console slots and Embassy level sci consoles for Stealth slotted in all of them plus 99 spec, max aux, and a Romulan BOFF and BARELY get 100 or 200 more stealth at best out of the entire thing.
Ok, on the first point, quite correct. In AGT the Feds and Klingons were not in the greatest of states diplomacy-wise. In STO there was war and a recent ceasefire.
In AGT the RSE was totally conquered by the Klingons, also true, won't deny it. HOWEVER, in STO, I've yet to see enough proof to say that the RSE is totally gone. Weakened, yes, possibly even fractured, but gone completely...not so much.
The point of what Q did to Picard in AGT wasn't really about showing him the future or the past though, it was about seeing if he would 'expand his mind', which he did.
Now, if STO had followed the timeline of AGT, I wouldn't be arguing this at all. Heck, in AGT when Riker used his cloak, Picard and the others didn't even bat an eyelash about the 'horrible Fed cloak', because it was clearly stated that in that timeline (and only that timeline so far as I can tell) the RSE was 100% gone, so there was no more treaty as such.
In STO however, that total conquering of the RSE by the Klingons didn't happen. Yes there were attacks that the Klingons made to regain some lost ground, but not all the way. They also had no qualms about allying with the RR.
As for the phase cloak...after watching the episode, Geordi was worried about the plasma relays, as the phase cloak could overload them. The cloak itself seemed to work just fine (and Pressman even had quite the proud smirk on his face as it did), but the plasma relays being overloaded is what was the most likely cause of what happened to the Pegasus.
I consider the RSE in the same camp as the True Way. Not a recognized political power thuis any treaty with them is null and void. The Republic is a completely different enity so seperate treaties invoiled. And they didn't bat an eye because the federation never really had an issue with cloaks. They just wanted peace more than cloaks. That peace is now in ruins, thus the ban of cloaks no longer needed.
Now that they are aware of that issue, likely due to the phase element then the cloak itself they can have more durable relays
I like that you are also still ignoring a lot of the points I brought up. I'm not about to try and pull out all the stuff you put in my last reply, as I really don't like it when people put their replies inside the quote, it's quite annoying.
doesn't matter what you like.. I did responded to all your points.. the ones worth responding to at least. But lets see.. your counter is I'm to lazy to responded.. got ya.. that's a way to counter a losing argument
.
You have shown nothing at all just a whinny it going to unbalance the game. When it has already been stated balance can change.
Why is this discussion still ongoing? Phase cloak, not needed.
Why indeed. At this point is obvious that some form of fed cloaking will be happening in Delta Rising, phasing or otherwise. Feds don't paint their ships black without reason, and that T6 fed escort in the trailer was pretty black...
Federation didn't use cloaks only due to treaty for peace. Okeg try to keep the peace when he signed that order. It failed so it can be reasonable made that the order has since been countermanned.
I don't understand this argument. Because nobody has told us the Order is still in place we can assume it has been countermanded. You may as well say because nobody has told me red lights mean stop recently I can drive through them. Why just the other day I saw an Ambulance drive through a red light.
But in reality the Ambulance is an exception to the rule rather than proof the rule is gone. Starfleet obviously has some exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it's intact.
The console it self's as a quoted that FEDs are researching cloaks... it's in game.. but hell lets dismiss it.
The Federation after decades of war builds a cloak capable warship.. its in game.. but lets dismiss it as well.
As for my statement about the Avenger basically being a KDF Battle Cruiser
Taken from Developer Blog: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1003170-legacy-of-romulus-dev-blog-_48
The Avenger Class Battle Cruiser can equip the Cloaking Device console that comes equipped on both the Dreadnaught Cruiser and Tactical Escort Retrofit. The starship was built to support key systems that would allow it emulate Klingon Battle Cruisers.
It has nothing to do with factions. People play the KDF not just for cloaks.. so stop with that argument. You guys only argument is if the Feds get them then no one will play the KDF.. well hate to break it.. for one has nothing to do with Feds moving to more cloaking tech, seconded that's a game development issue not a lore issue.
This I agree with but as I said if Cloaking is important to you, why are you in the Federation when the Klingons and Romulans can do it better than you ever will in the Federation?
I really wish Cryptic would clear this issue up. Is there going to be a T6 Fed Cloaker, of course there is for all the people who purchased a Defiant or Gal X to fly. But like the Avenger it doesn't offer proof of a repeal of that order. Exceptions to a Rule are not proof the Rule no longer exists.
As for the argument the Pegasus was a failure, some people believe getting stuck in an asteroid a success it would seem. That reeks to me of not getting out of prototype stage, where they had proof of concept but where still refining the process. For it to be viable there needs to be an exception or repeal of Okeg's Order and than the device needs to go into some serious testing. We expect 100% working things from our products, do you really want a device on your ship that runs a chance of exploding or getting you stuck inside something? Think of it like this, to make this device accurate to the show while cloaked the chance of the EPS conduits in your ship breaking and need components to repair just keeps on increasing. I have to admit it would make PVP interesting to know that any moment a ship could take hull damage and blow out it's EPS draining all power levels to 0 and than decloaking. It would become expensive repairing your ship all the time with components.
There are 3 sides to this argument, people who want more power, people who want a new way to play and people who want to maintain the status quo.
People who want more power are simply asking for more power.
People who want something they've seen on Screen are asking for an interesting way to play.
People who want the Status Quo either don't think it's fair that Starfleet have gotten so much or believe that Starfleet don't use Cloak because of their white knight status in the series.
Until Cryptic clears this up we're not going to see this argument end. The greedy people will always want more power, the people who want to RP will always want to RP and think their Connie should be a viable end game ship. The people who don't think the Federation should have Cloaking Tech aren't about to suddenly change their mind.
But hey put Cloaking Tech on Voyager and the show certainly changes, they'd be sneaking aroung trying to remain undetected and modifying the cloaking device to encounter the new alien species every week.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I don't understand this argument. Because nobody has told us the Order is still in place we can assume it has been countermanded. You may as well say because nobody has told me red lights mean stop recently I can drive through them. Why just the other day I saw an Ambulance drive through a red light.
But in reality the Ambulance is an exception to the rule rather than proof the rule is gone. Starfleet obviously has some exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it's intact.
As for my statement about the Avenger basically being a KDF Battle Cruiser
Taken from Developer Blog: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1003170-legacy-of-romulus-dev-blog-_48
The Avenger Class Battle Cruiser can equip the Cloaking Device console that comes equipped on both the Dreadnaught Cruiser and Tactical Escort Retrofit. The starship was built to support key systems that would allow it emulate Klingon Battle Cruisers.
Yes and its still a cloaking ships.. so for this discussion its still a new ship built for cloaking. So its a pretty hard fact countering the people trying to argue its banned. As far is being like another ship I just do not find that relevant for what the discussion is about.
This I agree with but as I said if Cloaking is important to you, why are you in the Federation when the Klingons and Romulans can do it better than you ever will in the Federation?
I know this may come to a shock to some but I do not tend to use cloaking ships. On my KDF toons I only use 1 cloaking ship the Mogh, the rest use the Grumba, on my romulan I use 2 both the Arkif but my main uses a Narcine, even though I own a Galaxy X and defiant on my feds I do not use cloaks right now I tend to fly the tempest, j'dread and breen. This for me isn't about you can go use cloaks on a different faction. Its about the lore and logic behind Feds not have something that for one they should have and two should be integrated like all cloaks on cloaking ships. Cloaks or not its not going to change the ships I play.
I really wish Cryptic would clear this issue up. Is there going to be a T6 Fed Cloaker, of course there is for all the people who purchased a Defiant or Gal X to fly. But like the Avenger it doesn't offer proof of a repeal of that order. Exceptions to a Rule are not proof the Rule no longer exists.
This is not true.. ignorance of the law is not a excuse. If feds were making cloaked ships.. not borrowing but constructing ships that cloak that right there is end of the argument. The issue to the player base is that there was never a when or why of posted. I beleave they (Cryptic) wouldn't want to say and leave it with people speculating on the change. If it were common knowledge people would then start asking why all feds ships do not have them. This way the can limit the numbers of ship with it trying to keep both sides happy.. that hardly ever works though.
As for the argument the Pegasus was a failure, some people believe getting stuck in an asteroid a success it would seem. That reeks to me of not getting out of prototype stage, where they had proof of concept but where still refining the process. For it to be viable there needs to be an exception or repeal of Okeg's Order and than the device needs to go into some serious testing. We expect 100% working things from our products, do you really want a device on your ship that runs a chance of exploding or getting you stuck inside something? Think of it like this, to make this device accurate to the show while cloaked the chance of the EPS conduits in your ship breaking and need components to repair just keeps on increasing. I have to admit it would make PVP interesting to know that any moment a ship could take hull damage and blow out it's EPS draining all power levels to 0 and than decloaking. It would become expensive repairing your ship all the time with components.
You really think that after 40 years they couldn't get it to work? Quantum slip stream 40 years ago would destroy the Voyager if used more then one time. Now its used all the time by all class's of ships.
As far as a phased cloak game use. I would imagine for game balance to be more like Romulan rep reward only that everything would pass through you and be on a shorter cool down the same as a battle cloak... so its used to phase in and out of combat to protect the ship.. that would mean it wouldn't be as effective for ambushing 1st strike... say 30 sec's of cloak with 30 sec's of cool down. They would need to over haul the KDF cloak to a least a battlecloak... maybe having a longer cool down or more vulnerability time while cloaking to balance it with the KDF and romulan cloaks.
There are 3 sides to this argument, people who want more power, people who want a new way to play and people who want to maintain the status quo.
People who want more power are simply asking for more power.
People who want something they've seen on Screen are asking for an interesting way to play.
People who want the Status Quo either don't think it's fair that Starfleet have gotten so much or believe that Starfleet don't use Cloak because of their white knight status in the series.
Until Cryptic clears this up we're not going to see this argument end. The greedy people will always want more power, the people who want to RP will always want to RP and think their Connie should be a viable end game ship. The people who don't think the Federation should have Cloaking Tech aren't about to suddenly change their mind.
That's the issue there is a lore component (this is mainly what I've been arguing.) Then there is game balance (that can be changed). The issue of Status Quo is normally where the head butting happens. Many of the same people screaming feds no cloaks are also on threads attacking T6 ships and T5-U ships. Its a fear of change motivates a lot of this. As far as "white knights" there argument is pretty shallow.. as before its how you use a cloak makes it bad or good (even it there such a thing, thats normally a pov of the victors). Or is Sisko evil for using a cloak.
There is another group, the people that know its a advantage and do not want to lose it. They want to keep things unbalanced to gain a advantage no matter how illogical it is game or lore wise.
But hey put Cloaking Tech on Voyager and the show certainly changes, they'd be sneaking aroung trying to remain undetected and modifying the cloaking device to encounter the new alien species every week.
The main reason for TV shows not having a cloak is story. How many time could of the Enterprise or Voyager just used cloak to avoid a fight or sneak in and rescue a hostage etc. Doesn't really make for engaging story's.
Tovak "Captain there is a fleet of 20 Kazon ships incoming, there weapons are charged"
Captain Janeway "Paris, engage cloak and go around that fleet"
Paris "Aye Captain, cloak engaged"
Narrator "After cloaking passed the Kazon fleet Voyager sets course back to the alpha quadrant. Here ends episode 21"
The reason it worked for DS9 is the station was the hub. It made a center point that was there to have threats to it and thus still have engaging story's that the main characters had to react to. Couldn't just cloak around the problem.
A lot of the negative post are about fear of change, fear of losing a advantage, or fear of losing there view of how sto should be.
You really think that after 40 years they couldn't get it to work? Quantum slip stream 40 years ago would destroy the Voyager if used more then one time. Now its used all the time by all class's of ships.
40 years of not being allowed to do any research and development on it. Yes I think it still won't work. If they had been working on it for 40 years than of course it would work. See your own example of Quantum Slipstream, 40 years of R&D and it works like a dream.
I think you misunderstand the term White Knight, I can be good without being a White Knight. A White Knight is good to a level beyond approach, he let's the enemy attack first to be sure of their intent where I would attack them before they got the opportunity to attack me.
Sisko was never a Bad guy, but he was no White Knight.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
40 years of not being allowed to do any research and development on it. Yes I think it still won't work. If they had been working on it for 40 years than of course it would work. See your own example of Quantum Slipstream, 40 years of R&D and it works like a dream.
I think you misunderstand the term White Knight, I can be good without being a White Knight. A White Knight is good to a level beyond approach, he let's the enemy attack first to be sure of their intent where I would attack them before they got the opportunity to attack me.
Sisko was never a Bad guy, but he was no White Knight.
Ya well neither is the Federation... Also we are talking about in game that it says Feds are researching cloaking. So ya a limited phased cloak like I said in the above post could work as what they have gotten so far. Feds know how basic cloak works. That wouldn't be hard to implement.
Mining a worm hole to prevent shipping sparking a war is not being a White knight.. and there are many events that Federation is far more grey then white. "cough, section 31"
Section 31 can't be considered part of the Federation, they are outside of it's chain of command. It's more like a secret society within the Federation than a part of it.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Mining a worm hole to prevent shipping sparking a war is not being a White knight.. and there are many events that Federation is far more grey then white. "cough, section 31"
Section 31 is a terrorist organization within the UFP which presuably has some high-ranking supporters, but was ultimately introduced in DS9 as a "villian in own ranks". It's post 9/11 hysteria that somehow led to the glorification of such practices in today's fiction (and ENT to a degree), but that doesn't mean S31 operates on bhealf of either the civilian government of the UFP or Starfleet Command.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Section 31 can't be considered part of the Federation, they are outside of it's chain of command. It's more like a secret society within the Federation than a part of it.
It isn't?
From memory alpha.
"The organization's title came from the original Starfleet Charter, Article 14, Section 31, which allowed for extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat"
"Section 31's actions were autonomous and its existence was neither acknowledged nor denied by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council."
That sure seems like a CIA/KGB type organization.. just better at hiding it.
This bring ups another thing.. why isn't Article 14, Section 31 used more often. Borg attacking earth, the breen blowing up Starfleet headquarters, undine infiltrating Starfleet command, the KDF declaring war... I mean if these are not extreme threats what is lol. But that one part of the charter shows the feds are no "white knights" when survival of the federation is at stake.
Also that part of the charter could be the means of how and why Federation is and still was investigating cloaks. That these extreme threats were justifying them to use extraordinary measures. Out side of Okeg's order.
Section 31 is a terrorist organization within the UFP which presuably has some high-ranking supporters, but was ultimately introduced in DS9 as a "villian in own ranks". It's post 9/11 hysteria that somehow led to the glorification of such practices in today's fiction (and ENT to a degree), but that doesn't mean S31 operates on bhealf of either the civilian government of the UFP or Starfleet Command.
This not accurate. They were the CIA of Federation if you read memory alpha. You can see that all the high ranking Star fleet officers are aware of Section 31. Going from Enterprise to Ds9. To the JJ abrams spin off. Even though JJ spin off is a different reality from destruction of Vulcan. Everything before that would of been the same and Section 31 is there in that time line.
Section 31 is just CIA but 1000x better at hiding what it does. You also have to read the charter on what its based off of. If you think Federation are "white knigths" you are sorely mistaken. There own charter gives them the right to do anything when it comes to the defensive of the Federation.
Maybe even research tech like phase cloaking......
This not accurate. They were the CIA of Federation if you read memory alpha. You can see that all the high ranking Star fleet officers are aware of Section 31. Going from Enterprise to Ds9. To the JJ abrams spin off. Even though JJ spin off is a different reality from destruction of Vulcan. Everything before that would of been the same and Section 31 is there in that time line.
Section 31 is just CIA but 1000x better at hiding what it does. You also have to read the charter on what its based off of. If you think Federation are "white knigths" you are sorely mistaken. There own charter gives them the right to do anything when it comes to the defensive of the Federation.
Maybe even research tech like phase cloaking......
The Fed has phase cloaking for some time developed by a secret group in Starfleet Security in the 2350s ( USS Pegasus ) i`ts True that is illegal but we have the tech i`ts not perfect. But we need a revers on the other from the Aennik Okeg forbidden to put it on tho The Ships.
This not accurate. They were the CIA of Federation if you read memory alpha. You can see that all the high ranking Star fleet officers are aware of Section 31. Going from Enterprise to Ds9. To the JJ abrams spin off. Even though JJ spin off is a different reality from destruction of Vulcan. Everything before that would of been the same and Section 31 is there in that time line.
Section 31 is just CIA but 1000x better at hiding what it does. You also have to read the charter on what its based off of. If you think Federation are "white knigths" you are sorely mistaken. There own charter gives them the right to do anything when it comes to the defensive of the Federation.
Maybe even research tech like phase cloaking......
Reread the article, sections 24th century and organization and tactics (the ENT part was retconned and glorified, like I said).
The cited section 31 doesn't exist, it was only mentioned in that sentence. Since we don't know the original charter which has never been published aside from the first few sentences, we don't know when it applies. But if you watch DS9 again, the organizations intentions and it's legality are outlined rather accurate. We can assume that Starfleet personnel more often than not countered their actions, if high-ranking Admirals wouldn't "turn a blind eye" (you wouldn't need to turn a blind eye to official operatives).
Section 31 is no official body and it is by any means not something characteristic for the UFP.
(...) Bashir, appalled at the thought of an organization that was not accountable to anyone and regularly violated the very principles and core values upon which the Federation had been founded, declined Sloan's offer. (...)
This was the purpose of S31 in DS9. To show that the end does not justify the means - unfortunately, like I said, real world perception of such actions changed drastically in the early 21st century...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
*If* cloaking becomes even more wide spread amongst the Federation, there is no longer a valid reason to have BoP's with the strucural integrity of a wet tissue and no shields worth mentioning. As a BoP flyer, I welcome the idea, if you Feds think we are scary now, just wait till we have escort level hull and shields.....
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
Reread the article, sections 24th century and organization and tactics (the ENT part was retconned and glorified, like I said).
The cited section 31 doesn't exist, it was only mentioned in that sentence. Since we don't know the original charter which has never been published aside from the first few sentences, we don't know when it applies. But if you watch DS9 again, the organizations intentions and it's legality are outlined rather accurate. We can assume that Starfleet personnel more often than not countered their actions, if high-ranking Admirals wouldn't "turn a blind eye" (you wouldn't need to turn a blind eye to official operatives).
Section 31 is no official body and it is by any means not something characteristic for the UFP.
This was the purpose of S31 in DS9. To show that the end does not justify the means - unfortunately, like I said, real world perception of such actions changed drastically in the early 21st century...
Look you can not use Bashir as a argument.. that's a opinion of a officer in Star fleet. Section 31 poisoning of the founders, the removal of Romulan senator to get a Federation agent in with the full knowledge of a Admiral.
You are making a assumption that the Admirals are turning a blind eye to it. The idea is to keep is so secret that no one can defend against a organization funded by the Federation that no one knows about.
They have full access to classified data, ships and tech that is only Federation. They have to be getting that from inside the federation with there knowledge. Other wise Starfleet intelligence is the worst organization with in Starfleet.
Also if you remember Sisiko did alert high command about what happened to Bashir and what he got back was don't ask. It's pretty obvious that the higher ups know full well what Section 31 is about. The lower ranks that are indoctrinated with Federation idealism of course wouldn't be keen on the idea of a Federation secret intelligence force. That does not mean that its not known or supported buy the higher ups with in the Federation.
So for story sake Cryptic could use Section 31 as a way to explain why the Federation is up to date on cloaking tech and even phased cloaking. That it kept the research going for the Federation behind closed doors. This is all hypothetical of course. But all evidence points to Section 31 being full supported buy the Federation.
*If* cloaking becomes even more wide spread amongst the Federation, there is no longer a valid reason to have BoP's with the strucural integrity of a wet tissue and no shields worth mentioning. As a BoP flyer, I welcome the idea, if you Feds think we are scary now, just wait till we have escort level hull and shields.....
For one.. feds do not care about bops...
for seconed... balance of ships can be changed....
Negs have cloaks.. they do not have paper tissue hulls.
Moghs have cloaks.. they do not have paper tissue hulls
In canon Star Trek bops are cannon foder. In fact they need to be one shot killed wonder ships of STO they should be nerfed more then after the nerf it would be like the shows.
Comments
Ah yes the KDF player logic...
If we do not like the news dismiss it.
The console it self's as a quoted that FEDs are researching cloaks... it's in game.. but hell lets dismiss it.
The Federation after decades of war builds a cloak capable warship.. its in game.. but lets dismiss it as well.
This is about the evolution in STO and how it pertains to the Federation and it lacking a tech that for one we know it can make and two is no longer bound by treaty not to make.
It has nothing to do with factions. People play the KDF not just for cloaks.. so stop with that argument. You guys only argument is if the Feds get them then no one will play the KDF.. well hate to break it.. for one has nothing to do with Feds moving to more cloaking tech, seconded that's a game development issue not a lore issue.
We all will agree that the KDF is lacking ships and customization options. This is a totally different issue and can not be used as a excuse for Federation not to be developing cloak based ships. Game balance wise cloak needs a overhaul its that simple, KDF needs more attention to there ship numbers and class's, and the Feds need to have more cloak options as the Federation and all factions evolves in this new time period of STO.
With season 2 hitting us soon this would be a good time for cryptic to address the above issues. Or at least address the ship number differences.
the issue with the KDF is that they don't really design new ships. Time and time again they upgrade current classes when needed and only make a new class when nessecary. They should get zen retro fits so they aren't screwed in the fleet ship issue and i would like to kitbash my Ktinga. But Cryptic does have an easy option. Make playable version of the Orion, Gorn, and Nasican ships
Face Cryptic screwed up when the game was launch and the KDF should have been a fully function faction then.
What similarities are those? Honest question, I want to know.
You are correct in that the Pegasus was a test-bed, and that when the Ent-D used the Phase Cloak it did work, but if memory serves (haven't watched that episode in awhile) Geordi wasn't sure how long it would last.
I have nothing against number 2 there. I used to, but not anymore. Number 1 on the other hand...Since when does PvP have squat to do with anything? I ask that as a PvPer. Why would anything involving PvP be justification enough to give more Fed cloaks when ALL I seem to hear all the time at least on the forums is..."PvP doesn't matter" or "Nobody plays PvP" and so on. So why does it matter now? In Ker'rat at the bare minimum Feds usually have the numbers advantage, and generally tend to have at least one or more Romulans and possibly a snooper, so what are Feds losing? If you are dying to decloaking attacks despite all that, then that's an entirely different issue not about more Fed cloaks.
One could argue that you've (and others) been doing the exact same thing this whole thread. Something is clearly there, yet it is ignored.
"It has nothing to do with factions." Then what in the great Zamorak's name are we arguing about? If that's the case, then does it matter at all? If factions aren't the factor, then clearly Feds not getting more cloaks shouldn't make the smallest iota of difference to anyone on that logic. Nobody plays Feds after all for cloaks, they play them because they are the 'hero' faction of Star Trek and have many of the iconic ships from the shows and movies.
Also it is 'expansion 2' not 'season 2'.
Pick a winning battle and Anti-Federation cloaks is not a winning battle... try fighting for Cryptic to get more KDF ships and flavor of ships... not picking fights on Federation forums.
When they bring up balance with the KDF they are... the bulk are KDF players.
So what - I play all 3 factions, and as a KDF player, I have no problem with the idea of my enemy using cloak.
But as a Federation player, I have a problem with using cloak. I think it is against the principle of the Federation as the good guys, and I really like being one of the good guys.
If we need better cloak counters, then give us cloak counters. Maybe give the Federation an Anti-Surprise Bonus taht grants +x % damage reduction to all attacks from cloaked vessels. (Yes, that means claok works poorly against us, but it would still work on Romulans or Klingons, and since both sides have Roms helping them, it's pretty interesting).
Give us the ability to see cloaked ships on the mini-map with sufficient Aux Power and skill bonuses, even if it's not enough to see through cloak.
That's the Federation way of dealing with cloak. Being able to counter it by better detection methods, and by being more prepared.
Hehe, if you really want to be a pain in the aft, make a snooper that really does invest in Starship Sensors and stacks some Embassy Sensor consoles (I'd suggest the [HuH] and [ShH] because you'll be the primary target of cloakers). It's amazing the number of players that don't bother investing in Starship Stealth and expect their cloak to make them utterly invisible, and almost nobody is willing to sacrifice enough console space to counter a dedicated snooper; one snooper setup can reveal cloaked ships in a very large bubble for their teammates to attack.
If you caught it in the last Summer Giveaway, you already have free access to the T5 Nebula and can pick up the Fleet version for 1 FSM; the Tachyon Detection Grid is a nice addition as well.
Besides, if they do add a Phasing Cloak it'll be just as well-liked as the Phase Shift Generator. :P
Good and bad is subjective.. its what you do with what you have that determines good or bad use of a tech.
Similarity one. Federation and KDF no longer in an alliance, in AGT it was back to cold war while STO is declared war. But In AGT Riker had no problem destroying a Neghvar.
Similarity 2: RSE not an issue. In AGT the RSE was conquered by the KDF in STO it only exists as the Tal Shiar. THe Republic is a more effective government at this point.
STo is at just the right time for AGT so with STo you can say Q got it close.
I think Geordi was worried about the phasing aspect of the cloak not the cloak itself and did worked fine.
I like that you are also still ignoring a lot of the points I brought up. I'm not about to try and pull out all the stuff you put in my last reply, as I really don't like it when people put their replies inside the quote, it's quite annoying.
A winning fight? Heh, I'd argue that I have chosen a winning fight in this case. It's been over four years into this game, and Feds have only 3 (or 6 depending on how you count fleet ships, and this is excluding lockbox ships) that can use the cloak console.
On the other end of the spectrum, trying to get more Klingon ships seems to be a losing fight all the time. They've pretty much said they have no plans at all to make more non-Klingon ships, so no further Gorn or Nausicaan or anything ships. The last ship we got was the Dyson 3 pack, and before that the Mogh (AFTER the Avenger), then the two low-level BoPs with LoR, and before that, the Bortasqu' 3 pack. So as you can tell, KDF don't tend to get much.
People don't bother not speccing into stealth because they don't want to. They don't bother because the Starship Stealth skill SUCKS. You can have a ship with 4 sci console slots and Embassy level sci consoles for Stealth slotted in all of them plus 99 spec, max aux, and a Romulan BOFF and BARELY get 100 or 200 more stealth at best out of the entire thing.
Ok, on the first point, quite correct. In AGT the Feds and Klingons were not in the greatest of states diplomacy-wise. In STO there was war and a recent ceasefire.
In AGT the RSE was totally conquered by the Klingons, also true, won't deny it. HOWEVER, in STO, I've yet to see enough proof to say that the RSE is totally gone. Weakened, yes, possibly even fractured, but gone completely...not so much.
The point of what Q did to Picard in AGT wasn't really about showing him the future or the past though, it was about seeing if he would 'expand his mind', which he did.
Now, if STO had followed the timeline of AGT, I wouldn't be arguing this at all. Heck, in AGT when Riker used his cloak, Picard and the others didn't even bat an eyelash about the 'horrible Fed cloak', because it was clearly stated that in that timeline (and only that timeline so far as I can tell) the RSE was 100% gone, so there was no more treaty as such.
In STO however, that total conquering of the RSE by the Klingons didn't happen. Yes there were attacks that the Klingons made to regain some lost ground, but not all the way. They also had no qualms about allying with the RR.
As for the phase cloak...after watching the episode, Geordi was worried about the plasma relays, as the phase cloak could overload them. The cloak itself seemed to work just fine (and Pressman even had quite the proud smirk on his face as it did), but the plasma relays being overloaded is what was the most likely cause of what happened to the Pegasus.
I consider the RSE in the same camp as the True Way. Not a recognized political power thuis any treaty with them is null and void. The Republic is a completely different enity so seperate treaties invoiled. And they didn't bat an eye because the federation never really had an issue with cloaks. They just wanted peace more than cloaks. That peace is now in ruins, thus the ban of cloaks no longer needed.
Now that they are aware of that issue, likely due to the phase element then the cloak itself they can have more durable relays
You have shown nothing at all just a whinny it going to unbalance the game. When it has already been stated balance can change.
Why indeed. At this point is obvious that some form of fed cloaking will be happening in Delta Rising, phasing or otherwise. Feds don't paint their ships black without reason, and that T6 fed escort in the trailer was pretty black...
I don't understand this argument. Because nobody has told us the Order is still in place we can assume it has been countermanded. You may as well say because nobody has told me red lights mean stop recently I can drive through them. Why just the other day I saw an Ambulance drive through a red light.
But in reality the Ambulance is an exception to the rule rather than proof the rule is gone. Starfleet obviously has some exceptions to this rule, but for the most part it's intact.
As for my statement about the Avenger basically being a KDF Battle Cruiser
Taken from Developer Blog: http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1003170-legacy-of-romulus-dev-blog-_48
The Avenger Class Battle Cruiser can equip the Cloaking Device console that comes equipped on both the Dreadnaught Cruiser and Tactical Escort Retrofit. The starship was built to support key systems that would allow it emulate Klingon Battle Cruisers.
This I agree with but as I said if Cloaking is important to you, why are you in the Federation when the Klingons and Romulans can do it better than you ever will in the Federation?
I really wish Cryptic would clear this issue up. Is there going to be a T6 Fed Cloaker, of course there is for all the people who purchased a Defiant or Gal X to fly. But like the Avenger it doesn't offer proof of a repeal of that order. Exceptions to a Rule are not proof the Rule no longer exists.
As for the argument the Pegasus was a failure, some people believe getting stuck in an asteroid a success it would seem. That reeks to me of not getting out of prototype stage, where they had proof of concept but where still refining the process. For it to be viable there needs to be an exception or repeal of Okeg's Order and than the device needs to go into some serious testing. We expect 100% working things from our products, do you really want a device on your ship that runs a chance of exploding or getting you stuck inside something? Think of it like this, to make this device accurate to the show while cloaked the chance of the EPS conduits in your ship breaking and need components to repair just keeps on increasing. I have to admit it would make PVP interesting to know that any moment a ship could take hull damage and blow out it's EPS draining all power levels to 0 and than decloaking. It would become expensive repairing your ship all the time with components.
There are 3 sides to this argument, people who want more power, people who want a new way to play and people who want to maintain the status quo.
People who want more power are simply asking for more power.
People who want something they've seen on Screen are asking for an interesting way to play.
People who want the Status Quo either don't think it's fair that Starfleet have gotten so much or believe that Starfleet don't use Cloak because of their white knight status in the series.
Until Cryptic clears this up we're not going to see this argument end. The greedy people will always want more power, the people who want to RP will always want to RP and think their Connie should be a viable end game ship. The people who don't think the Federation should have Cloaking Tech aren't about to suddenly change their mind.
But hey put Cloaking Tech on Voyager and the show certainly changes, they'd be sneaking aroung trying to remain undetected and modifying the cloaking device to encounter the new alien species every week.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
A lot of the negative post are about fear of change, fear of losing a advantage, or fear of losing there view of how sto should be.
40 years of not being allowed to do any research and development on it. Yes I think it still won't work. If they had been working on it for 40 years than of course it would work. See your own example of Quantum Slipstream, 40 years of R&D and it works like a dream.
I think you misunderstand the term White Knight, I can be good without being a White Knight. A White Knight is good to a level beyond approach, he let's the enemy attack first to be sure of their intent where I would attack them before they got the opportunity to attack me.
Sisko was never a Bad guy, but he was no White Knight.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Ya well neither is the Federation... Also we are talking about in game that it says Feds are researching cloaking. So ya a limited phased cloak like I said in the above post could work as what they have gotten so far. Feds know how basic cloak works. That wouldn't be hard to implement.
Mining a worm hole to prevent shipping sparking a war is not being a White knight.. and there are many events that Federation is far more grey then white. "cough, section 31"
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Section 31 is a terrorist organization within the UFP which presuably has some high-ranking supporters, but was ultimately introduced in DS9 as a "villian in own ranks". It's post 9/11 hysteria that somehow led to the glorification of such practices in today's fiction (and ENT to a degree), but that doesn't mean S31 operates on bhealf of either the civilian government of the UFP or Starfleet Command.
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It isn't?
From memory alpha.
"The organization's title came from the original Starfleet Charter, Article 14, Section 31, which allowed for extraordinary measures to be taken in times of extreme threat"
"Section 31's actions were autonomous and its existence was neither acknowledged nor denied by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council."
That sure seems like a CIA/KGB type organization.. just better at hiding it.
This bring ups another thing.. why isn't Article 14, Section 31 used more often. Borg attacking earth, the breen blowing up Starfleet headquarters, undine infiltrating Starfleet command, the KDF declaring war... I mean if these are not extreme threats what is lol. But that one part of the charter shows the feds are no "white knights" when survival of the federation is at stake.
Also that part of the charter could be the means of how and why Federation is and still was investigating cloaks. That these extreme threats were justifying them to use extraordinary measures. Out side of Okeg's order.
This not accurate. They were the CIA of Federation if you read memory alpha. You can see that all the high ranking Star fleet officers are aware of Section 31. Going from Enterprise to Ds9. To the JJ abrams spin off. Even though JJ spin off is a different reality from destruction of Vulcan. Everything before that would of been the same and Section 31 is there in that time line.
Section 31 is just CIA but 1000x better at hiding what it does. You also have to read the charter on what its based off of. If you think Federation are "white knigths" you are sorely mistaken. There own charter gives them the right to do anything when it comes to the defensive of the Federation.
Maybe even research tech like phase cloaking......
The Fed has phase cloaking for some time developed by a secret group in Starfleet Security in the 2350s ( USS Pegasus ) i`ts True that is illegal but we have the tech i`ts not perfect. But we need a revers on the other from the Aennik Okeg forbidden to put it on tho The Ships.
Reread the article, sections 24th century and organization and tactics (the ENT part was retconned and glorified, like I said).
The cited section 31 doesn't exist, it was only mentioned in that sentence. Since we don't know the original charter which has never been published aside from the first few sentences, we don't know when it applies. But if you watch DS9 again, the organizations intentions and it's legality are outlined rather accurate. We can assume that Starfleet personnel more often than not countered their actions, if high-ranking Admirals wouldn't "turn a blind eye" (you wouldn't need to turn a blind eye to official operatives).
Section 31 is no official body and it is by any means not something characteristic for the UFP.
This was the purpose of S31 in DS9. To show that the end does not justify the means - unfortunately, like I said, real world perception of such actions changed drastically in the early 21st century...
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*If* cloaking becomes even more wide spread amongst the Federation, there is no longer a valid reason to have BoP's with the strucural integrity of a wet tissue and no shields worth mentioning. As a BoP flyer, I welcome the idea, if you Feds think we are scary now, just wait till we have escort level hull and shields.....
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Look you can not use Bashir as a argument.. that's a opinion of a officer in Star fleet. Section 31 poisoning of the founders, the removal of Romulan senator to get a Federation agent in with the full knowledge of a Admiral.
You are making a assumption that the Admirals are turning a blind eye to it. The idea is to keep is so secret that no one can defend against a organization funded by the Federation that no one knows about.
They have full access to classified data, ships and tech that is only Federation. They have to be getting that from inside the federation with there knowledge. Other wise Starfleet intelligence is the worst organization with in Starfleet.
Also if you remember Sisiko did alert high command about what happened to Bashir and what he got back was don't ask. It's pretty obvious that the higher ups know full well what Section 31 is about. The lower ranks that are indoctrinated with Federation idealism of course wouldn't be keen on the idea of a Federation secret intelligence force. That does not mean that its not known or supported buy the higher ups with in the Federation.
So for story sake Cryptic could use Section 31 as a way to explain why the Federation is up to date on cloaking tech and even phased cloaking. That it kept the research going for the Federation behind closed doors. This is all hypothetical of course. But all evidence points to Section 31 being full supported buy the Federation.
For one.. feds do not care about bops...
for seconed... balance of ships can be changed....
Negs have cloaks.. they do not have paper tissue hulls.
Moghs have cloaks.. they do not have paper tissue hulls
In canon Star Trek bops are cannon foder. In fact they need to be one shot killed wonder ships of STO they should be nerfed more
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/game-pack/detail/718-delta-rising-operations-pack