as with all lockbox/event ships (minus Mirror) and Romulan stuff, it's overpowered by intent from the Developer end, to sell trinkets as part of the lotto scheme.
And I can't help it if the Facts favour my side over yours, honestly, the only argument Fed Cloak lobbyists have, is that they want it because they want it, but they don't want to roll a KDF or Romulan to have it.
which is pretty damn weak, really-the best fleets in PvP are all Fed (except the Hobos, but they're the anomaly and they're ONE fleet, and they're reliant on Lockbox and Romulan TRIBBLE, which is in and of itself a sad testimony to the 'balance' in the game...)
and most of the best builds are on Fed Chassis-including builds that make better use of transferred KDF gear (lockbox consoles) than the originating faction.
But: from the internal logic of the game setting and universe, to the issues of faction balance and game balance, alll the 'facts' roll against what you want, Teron-it's only your envy and desire to have everything at no cost to you, that drives these lobbying efforts.
There's no real 'canon' argument for the Federation honoring the treaty in question if they are actively at war with the Romulans, considering the treaty was intended to prevent war.
The President said he would honor the treaty even though the legal obligation to do so was questionable, this pledge was made under a different government during a time of peace.
Years later we have the Federation at war with the new Romulan govt and developing their own cloaking devices.
You must have blinders on to say that this doesn't make sense from the logic of the game setting and universe. because that's a severe case of seeing what you want to see.
As for game balance, It's been pointed out that Klingon ships don't suffer nearly as much as you claim for their integrated cloaks. There might be some sub-optimal boff seating issues, but that's hardly an issue specific to KDF ships. Take away a console slot for every Romulan and Klingon ship with cloak, and I think you'll start to see how big a difference that console slot makes.
You've proved absolutely nothing, and it is your head in the sand. The RSE still exists, the Treaty still counts, and most finally, Okeg's order still counts, reason alone enough to say no Fed-Cloaks.
Of course, you ignore that, as it is your own personal issue wanting Fed-cloaks when the lore is against it.
Now, if something actually happens to change that, then it is a different matter. There are a myriad of ways to do it in universe. But until then, no Fed-cloaks.
Also, you can't even match up who made a point properly - it was the KDF who brought up balance, I never mentioned it because balance doesn't exist in STO.
You've proved absolutely nothing, and it is your head in the sand. The RSE still exists, the Treaty still counts, and most finally, Okeg's order still counts, reason alone enough to say no Fed-Cloaks.
Of course, you ignore that, as it is your own personal issue wanting Fed-cloaks when the lore is against it.
Now, if something actually happens to change that, then it is a different matter. There are a myriad of ways to do it in universe. But until then, no Fed-cloaks.
Also, you can't even match up who made a point properly - it was the KDF who brought up balance, I never mentioned it because balance doesn't exist in STO.
The Treaty still counts-no it doesn't. There's war between the RSE and the Federation, which already violates the treaty, which was designed to prevent war, and the claim that the Federation was legally obliged to follow the old treaty was already in doubt, even in peacetime as mentioned by the president himself.
Then we have the Federation developing their own cloaks years later, which would be a clear violation of the treaty. It's obvious there's been a policy shift.
something did happen to change the situation You just seem intent on ignoring it.
The treaty is dead, if not officially-at least in the de facto sense. We don't know which it is specifically, but the one thing we do know is that of 2409 the Federation isn't holding itself to the treaty or the president's pledge to uphold it.
On Crew: The Devs have been aware of this for a LOOOOONNNNGGG time-issues with it first appeared in the archives with 2010/2011 dates. So far, it has not been addressed, and we see specific trends indicating it is actually in use as a mechanism of balancing. (Specifically balancing the better turn rate and DHC availability of KDF Battlecruisers vs. Federation Beam Cruisers.) This makes it a mechanical fact in the game, and therefore suitable for use as a measure of comparison until such time as it is, in fact, acknowledged as an actual BUG (as opposed to 'Feature') and addressed by the software guys.
On Raptors: Ever actually FLOWN a KDF raptor? Specifically Qin and variants, but also the Somraw.
Raptors are supposed to be equivalent to Escorts, but...they turn slower, have poorer inertia, console distribution's non-optimal compared to equivalent Fed chassis (Specifically the direct comparables of Fleet Qin to Fleet Defiant, the Fl. Somraw compares directly to the Fleet Sabre or Patrol escort, take your pick). and higher crew numbers cut down on recovery, which directly impacts survival.
There's a reason besides Battlecloak most kDF bypass Raptors entirely-they PAY for being KDF ships-they don't turn as well, and don't have the firepower that Fed vessels in the same 'range' have.
When you exclude outliers like the Bugship and the lockbox cross-faction specials, and focus on faction-specific gear, Fed>KDF, and ROM>Fed.
Reason being, Romulan ships get all the advantages of Feddie ships, plus Battlecloak and Singularity Powers-but that's intended. Legacy of Romulus was expensive, and if it weren't outright Better, they wouldn't have recovered the investment.
So Romulan gear fits closer to the Lockbox/Crossfaction side of the ledger, it isn't worth considering for balancing purposes, esp. as the transfer of Lockboxed formerly faction exclusive consoles solidly favours Federation/Romulans over everyone else-because artists and bills must be paid.
And Cryptic's never shown much ability to handle more than a single player, single faction PVE game anyway.
Then ask for better raptors. They may be bad ships, but it's not because they can cloak.
KDF players keep having a huge fit over this, but the reason FED players want it is because it's such a small change that it doesn't make sense to keep it tied to a console. Consoles have exploded in power and value such that equipping the Cloak before going anywhere is just stupid. Cloaks are a lot of fun, but they're nowhere near worth the console slot anymore. If they have to be an item, they should at least be devices.
What harm would integrated cloaking on three FED ships do to the KDF? Really think about that. PVP is a hot mess right now with no rewards, and it's already dominated by cloaking alpha-strike ships and JHAS's.
I doubt most KDF players would even notice it, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world. It makes no sense why KDF players keep storming into these threads making such a huge fuss, especially because they mostly turn a blind eye to reasonable arguments and just throw temper tantrums.
I've yet to see a rational, well thought out argument against integrating regular cloaks into a small number of FED ships.
The Treaty still counts-no it doesn't. There's war between the RSE and the Federation, which already violates the treaty, which was designed to prevent war, and the claim that the Federation was legally obliged to follow the old treaty was already in doubt, even in peacetime as mentioned by the president himself.
Then we have the Federation developing their own cloaks years later, which would be a clear violation of the treaty. It's obvious there's been a policy shift.
something did happen to change the situation You just seem intent on ignoring it.
The treaty is dead, if not officially-at least in the de facto sense. We don't know which it is specifically, but the one thing we do know is that of 2409 the Federation isn't holding itself to the treaty or the president's pledge to uphold it.
Nothing changed - Feds still don't cloak (the 3 player ships don't count, as already covered) and the Treaty is not dead. Okeg's order was never revoked, and that alone is everything needed to say no Fed-cloaks.
If the Treaty is invalidated due to war, then go back to page 32, that's already been done.
Except...you're missing the logic of the Federation's culture, and you're also ignoring quite a bit of Earth's history with your assumptions.
The U.S., for instance, still upholds the Hague Accords signed in the 19th century banning the use of expanding bullets, explosive bullets, and poison-carrying bullets, as well as observing the terms of various SALT and START treaties signed with the Soviets in the middle of the Cold War-sometimes while Americans and American Allies were fighting real, blood and gunpowder wars with Soviet-assisted forces and Soviet Client States. Please note: we also observed the Hague conventions while fighting TWO wars with Germany, even after the German Empire and Austro-Hungarian Empire were defunct.
IOW it is not outside of logic OR reason that the Federation would continue to uphold their treaty regardless of how nutty Sela got-espl considering the mercurial nature of Romulan Politics.
Particularly given the Federation's Track Record in Cloaking Development-which has not been a shining example of successful technical integration or design.
U.S.S. Pegasus, which wound up stuck in an asteroid, all hands lost.
U.S.S. Kelso, blown up by a coolant leak. (really, a coolant leak? maybe this is an indicator of some 'not getting it' on the part of Starfleet's engineering corps...)
U.S.S. Defiant-borrowed cloak frequent cloaking failures, eventually lost to enemy action.
The last 'successful' Cloaking Federation ship was the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701, stole a Cloaking device from the Romulans and didn't die when they used it-but that was a single incident, early in the development of the technology on the Romulan end, given the dates of the actual treaty, it's likely the Federation had difficulty adapting the design for sustained use (or they wouldn't have SIGNED the treaty.)
On the flip side, the Feds both in the shows/movies and in the game, have significantly outpaced their rivals in the art of detection and countermeasures to Cloak. to the point where, when someone sits there claiming "Cloaking is OP" there are several of us who've pointed out key flaws in said poster's build, including but not limited to 'You didn't put points into Sensors, did you?"
because most of the time, they didn't.
Everything you need to bust a cloaker is on the Fed side right...now...you just have to use it. This is not true on the "Red Team"-but it is on the Blue team. (TBH we can get about 60-70 percent of the range and detection you can, using the right builds and what gear is available-but it's much more difficult to achieve and requires more sacrifices. big difference being that there are probably more as a percentage playing KDF that WILL And DO put those points in, rather than min-maxing for the DPS races at Infected.)
Oh, and as for 'not suffering'...would YOU take those stats? BE HONEST.
A better comparison would be the use of spy planes. or other surveillance devices. The sort of thing you might agree to not do in peace time, but which you'd be a fool to avoid in case of war.
It's not like the Federation is using Thalaron or Biogenic weapons or arming their away teams with Varon-Ts or something. It's just not comparable.
At the end of the day it was a concession the Federation made to maintain peace between them and the Romulan Star Empire. There is no longer peace between them, and thus the treaty is of no use.
Nothing changed - Feds still don't cloak (the 3 player ships don't count, as already covered) and the Treaty is not dead. Okeg's order was never revoked, and that alone is everything needed to say no Fed-cloaks.
If the Treaty is invalidated due to war, then go back to page 32, that's already been done.
"...in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships. "
Sounds a lot like a reversal on Okeg's earlier pledge to me. And IMO I'd say that player ships *do* count. There's nothing in the game via dialogue that indicates that only the player's ship is issued a cloaking device.
"...in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships. "
Sounds a lot like a reversal on Okeg's earlier pledge to me. And IMO I'd say that player ships *do* count. There's nothing in the game via dialogue that indicates that only the player's ship is issued a cloaking device.
There is nothing in the game's dialogue to indicate NPC Feds are issued cloaks, and it isn't a reversal, just a throw-away line so that people can have their cloaking Defiants and Gal-Xs.
There is nothing in the game's dialogue to indicate NPC Feds are issued cloaks, and it isn't a reversal, just a throw-away line so that people can have their cloaking Defiants and Gal-Xs.
Again, you may not like it, but it's in the game. It's STO-canon.
If you're going to willfully ignore solid in-game evidence of the Feds using cloaks, then there's really just no talking to you at all on the subject.
Guys, just a question, but about what war are you talking?
We are at peace with the Klingon Defense Force (A step between stars), the romulan empire is defeated, or atleast not longer a treat, our only enemys are the iconians that should be able to overcome every cloaking technology within seconds. So against whom you wanna use those cloaks?
And also, the romulan republic as the new romulan state took all the treatys, the romulan empire isnt even accepted as a state anymore by the ferderation, so the treaty of algeron no longer affects sela but d`tan, and the ferderation isnt at war with the romulan republic, is she?
...So against whom you wanna use those cloaks?....
Against their own complete player incompetence. Some people suck so bad at this game that they think a cloak would change their flaws as a player. Boy are they in for a suprise.
Cloaks are fun. I'd like to use my cloak without feeling like I'm hampering my ship, especially during a gear reset where our equipment doesn't radically overpower our opponents.
Cloaks don't affect the PVE game much at all, except to make some encounters more fun. It dominates in PVP mostly because of the alpha strike, but PVP hasn't been balanced since almost the launch of the game.
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
So i do not see reason so we can not have Tire 6 ship whit Battle Clock.
Guys, just a question, but about what war are you talking?
We are at peace with the Klingon Defense Force (A step between stars), the romulan empire is defeated, or atleast not longer a treat, our only enemys are the iconians that should be able to overcome every cloaking technology within seconds. So against whom you wanna use those cloaks?
And also, the romulan republic as the new romulan state took all the treatys, the romulan empire isnt even accepted as a state anymore by the ferderation, so the treaty of algeron no longer affects sela but d`tan, and the ferderation isnt at war with the romulan republic, is she?
Its about PvP mostly, not about lore, no matter how much some aggressive posters preach, multiple times like they would win the internet or something. And there are many enemies in PvE where a cloak comes in handy.
That been said, totaly looking forward for a fed phased cloak on a future Tier 6 fed ship.
Also one more thing, of topic. My post just got deleted. It seems some forum moderators are delete posts for no reason whatso ever. I get that thay may have other opinions, but still this is blunt abuse of power.
Is there anywhere, a higher person, where to bring this issue up?
Cloaks are fun. I'd like to use my cloak without feeling like I'm hampering my ship, especially during a gear reset where our equipment doesn't radically overpower our opponents.
Great, luckily for you there are 2 out of 3 factions in STO that provide that experience. One of them across the entire roster even. So you're covered.
Great, luckily for you there are 2 out of 3 factions in STO that provide that experience. One of them across the entire roster even. So you're covered.
Why don't KDF players just play Federation if the Defiant is so much better than Raptors?
So, what you're saying is that you live in Wonderland. How's the Mad Hatter?
I don't even need to link you anything. You need only look at this very thread to see people talking about Raptors, and wishing they had the stats of the Defiant. Go ahead back a few pages and you'll see.
Every single time someone mentions the Defiant, a KDF player pops up to start talking about the Qin (in a Federation forum, no less).
If you can't be bothered to go back a few pages in this thread, though, then I've got nothing else to say to you.
I want to fly the Defiant because it's one of my favorite ships from the TV series. I want integrated cloaking on it because it's radically unbalanced for it to cost a console, hurts nobody for it to become integrated on a small number of Fed ships, and is fun. There's just no reason for it to still cost a console, and the fact that KDF players throw a fit every time the subject comes up is completely baffling.
Nobody even makes an effort to explain why they think it's not a good idea. They just feel hurt over the apparent lacking qualities of the Raptors and feel like other people shouldn't get nice things either. It's an incredibly immature attitude for such a small request.
So, what you're saying is that you live in Wonderland. How's the Mad Hatter?
Ohh now resorting to trolling I see. Whats the matter, deleting my post using moderator account wasnt enuf??
If its you who did is, then is really low of you. And i will get to the bottom of this, be sure of that.
Lets see how Cryptic feels about forum moderators using a mod forum account to delete posts for personal reasons, just becouse then dont like others opinions...
Ohh now resorting to trolling I see. Whats the matter, deleting my post using moderator account wasnt enuf??
If its you who did is, then is really low of you. And i will get to the bottom of this, be sure of that.
Lets see how Cryptic feels about forum moderators using a mod forum account to delete posts for personal reasons, just becouse then dont like others opinions...
While he is definitely trolling, it's reaching to assume he has a super secret second moderator account that he uses to delete posts.
Moderators delete posts discussing the deletion of posts, or ones that violate the TOS. Without seeing the post, I can't say what you might have said to warrant deletion, but they're given a lot of leeway in the name of keeping the peace on these forums.
You're well on your way to a temp ban, though, if you're going to keep discussing the moderators and deleted posts like this.
I don't even need to link you anything. You need only look at this very thread to see people talking about Raptors, and wishing they had the stats of the Defiant. Go ahead back a few pages and you'll see.
What you're actually missing in this entire process is that 90% of those KDF players don't actually whine about getting a Defiant in a manner the Feds. whine about the cloak around here, but they simply make a statement that if you want integrated cloak on the Defiant you either need to pay for that benefit like KDF raptors do, or the ships in the KDF roster should be buffed to not pay a price for the same benefits that you want for a ship in a faction with no tradition of cloaking.
Big difference.
If you can't be bothered to go back a few pages in this thread, though, then I've got nothing else to say to you.
I want to fly the Defiant because it's one of my favorite ships from the TV series. I want integrated cloaking on it because it's radically unbalanced for it to cost a console, hurts nobody for it to become integrated on a small number of Fed ships, and is fun. There's just no reason for it to still cost a console, and the fact that KDF players throw a fit every time the subject comes up is completely baffling.
Let's say I agree that costing a console slot is too much for a cloak. You won't agree to pay the price raptors pay for an integrated cloak either, amirite?
Nobody even makes an effort to explain why they think it's not a good idea. They just feel hurt over the apparent lacking qualities of the Raptors and feel like other people shouldn't get nice things either. It's an incredibly immature attitude for such a small request.
It's very simple actually if you wanted to understand. It's not about anyone getting or not getting "nice" things. It's about potential BS from the game studio developing this game. They've said themselves that they designed the KDF BoPs and raptors to pay certain prices for having integrated cloaks and battlecloaks. When and if you go back on your word and give the faction with no cloaking tradition an integrated cloak, you either need to apply the same 'price' to be paid for it or buff the ships that already "pay" for something that others don't pay anymore. Very simple.
Now if you ask me personally, this game is filled with stupid arbitrary decisions. In my opinion, every cloak should be an integrated battlecloak, just like in the shows. Leave it to Cryptic to overcomplicate things and create the mess we have now with cloaking between the factions.
I'm just working with what I'm given here. If you get an integrated cloak on a Defiant without paying any price in exchange, then so should KDF raptors and BoPs.
The biggest issue I have with topic like this is the sheer amount of Fed player greed around here and you know it. Maybe it's not you personally, but I'm almost 100% sure that once and if you get this, the vast majority of Feds would whine for integarted cloaks on every ship. And it's the Fed part of me that has a problem with this actually, I want to play in the faction I saw and loved on the shows - not some weird abomination because of all the whiners.
What you're actually missing in this entire process is that 90% of those KDF players don't actually whine about getting a Defiant in a manner the Feds. whine about the cloak around here, but they simply make a statement that if you want integrated cloak on the Defiant you either need to pay for that benefit like KDF raptors do, or the ships in the KDF roster should be buffed to not pay a price for the same benefits that you want for a ship in a faction with no tradition of cloaking.
Raptors do not pay for their cloak. They may have less than ideal stats, but it's not because of the cloak, and you're going to have to pony up some evidence to the contrary if you want to keep asserting that point.
Birds-of-Prey pay for having battle cloaks and all-uni boff seating. That's not comparable to the Defiant at all, since all I'm talking about is regular cloaks.
And the only reason this is being discussed so much now is because of the addition of Romulans to the game. They have plenty of 5-tac console ships with penalty-free battle cloaks.
The game has changed. It's not just KDF vs. Feds anymore, and on top of that, the value of console slots has rocketed past where it was back when the cloaking device was first turned into a console.
In the current state of the game, the cloak being a console just does not make sense.
As far as being worried about this harming the integrity of the entire Federation faction, that's long since been gone. Most STFs are at least half full of people flying some alien Lockbox/Lobi ship anyway. Faction integrity is probably the last thing a handful of cloaking Fed ships would affect, after all the damage its already suffered.
Now if you ask me personally, this game is filled with stupid arbitrary decisions. In my opinion, every cloak should be an integrated battlecloak, just like in the shows.
Exactly.
I want to clarify my position:
If any ship from any faction has a cloak, it should be a battle-cloak, or enhanced battle-cloaks where appropriate. (T'Varo and B'rel only)
What is actually being discussed is Fed-cloaks being allowed at all, which is a very different question.
If the lore is changed to allow Fed-cloaks, then it is a different matter. As it stands however, the lore is no Fed-Cloaks, and certainly not Fed-cloaks for everyone. There are a myriad of ways to do it that would be just fine.
Ohh now resorting to trolling I see. Whats the matter, deleting my post using moderator account wasnt enuf??
If its you who did is, then is really low of you. And i will get to the bottom of this, be sure of that.
Lets see how Cryptic feels about forum moderators using a mod forum account to delete posts for personal reasons, just becouse then dont like others opinions...
Raptors do not pay for their cloak. They may have less than ideal stats, but it's not because of the cloak, and you're going to have to pony up some evidence to the contrary if you want to keep asserting that point.
Come on now, I know you've been in almost every 'Fed needs cloaking' thread. I know that dozens upons dozens of people have presented evidence to you and you usually just stick your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalalala'.
Here, I'll try nevertheless:
Raptors do pay for their integrated cloak. The last evidence on this I can remember was stated by adjudicatorhawk in the thread about the Mogh Battlecruiser in the 'Galactic News Network' section when the Mogh was released, where he made it very clear that all KDF classes pay a price for integrated cloaking except for the battlecruisers, because they consider them native to the KDF.
You can search for it if you have the time and nerves, I'm sure you'll find it.
Birds-of-Prey pay for having battle cloaks and all-uni boff seating. That's not comparable to the Defiant at all, since all I'm talking about is regular cloaks.
And the only reason this is being discussed so much now is because of the addition of Romulans to the game. They have plenty of 5-tac console ships with penalty-free battle cloaks.
The game has changed. It's not just KDF vs. Feds anymore, and on top of that, the value of console slots has rocketed past where it was back when the cloaking device was first turned into a console.
In the current state of the game, the cloak being a console just does not make sense.
I'm not saying stuff hasn't changed. What I'm saying if changes to this are applied they need to be applied across the board. So either everyone pays or no one pays. We can't have stuff like - you have to pay, but I don't because I'm cooler than you.
Anyway, I think your point here is for the Fed ships that have access to cloak to have it integrated. Which leaves the Avenger in a limbo, but that's not actually the premise of this particular thread. The premise of this thread is 'phased cloaking' for all Fed ships. And that's the thing I have issues with, not integrating the cloak on ships that already have access to one - if it's balanced across the board.
Come on now, I know you've been in almost every 'Fed needs cloaking' thread. I know that dozens upons dozens of people have presented evidence to you and you usually just stick your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalalala'.
Here, I'll try nevertheless:
Raptors do pay for their integrated cloak. The last evidence on this I can remember was stated by adjudicatorhawk in the thread about the Mogh Battlecruiser in the 'Galactic News Network' section when the Mogh was released, where he made it very clear that all KDF classes pay a price for integrated cloaking except for the battlecruisers, because they consider them native to the KDF.
You can search for it if you have the time and nerves, I'm sure you'll find it.
No one's ever linked anything to that effect. They make claims, and then I post the ship stats and directly compare KDF and Fed ships, showing very clearly how most KDF ships do not pay for their cloak.
In the case of the Mogh, aside from crew count, it is identical to the Avenger, with the exception of the Mogh's cloak. The crew is the only difference -- 2000 on the Mogh, versus 500 on the Avenger. The clincher here is that it does not affect the purpose of the cloak: the alpha strike. The Mogh is a superior vessel for making alpha strikes than the Avenger, simply because it has one more console slot to work with.
Until someone provides a post from Cryptic saying they take a price for KDF cloaks, I don't see it as a valid argument. I have provided tons of evidence to prove my point in numerous threads.
And, again, with the addition of the Romulan ships and the ever increasing power of consoles, it makes no sense to still have the cloak tied to a console. It's woefully underpowered given the benefits of cloaking, and wildly unbalanced compared to the rest of the cloaking ships in the game.
The Defiant and the KDF do not exist in a vacuum. The game's balance at large is the whole reason people talk about this, and is why there's no harm in allowing the few cloaking Fed ships to have their cloaks integrated now.
(Incidentally, a search of "adjudicatorhawk" as a user and "mogh" in the key words nets zero results)
Comments
The President said he would honor the treaty even though the legal obligation to do so was questionable, this pledge was made under a different government during a time of peace.
Years later we have the Federation at war with the new Romulan govt and developing their own cloaking devices.
You must have blinders on to say that this doesn't make sense from the logic of the game setting and universe. because that's a severe case of seeing what you want to see.
As for game balance, It's been pointed out that Klingon ships don't suffer nearly as much as you claim for their integrated cloaks. There might be some sub-optimal boff seating issues, but that's hardly an issue specific to KDF ships. Take away a console slot for every Romulan and Klingon ship with cloak, and I think you'll start to see how big a difference that console slot makes.
Of course, you ignore that, as it is your own personal issue wanting Fed-cloaks when the lore is against it.
Now, if something actually happens to change that, then it is a different matter. There are a myriad of ways to do it in universe. But until then, no Fed-cloaks.
Also, you can't even match up who made a point properly - it was the KDF who brought up balance, I never mentioned it because balance doesn't exist in STO.
Then we have the Federation developing their own cloaks years later, which would be a clear violation of the treaty. It's obvious there's been a policy shift.
something did happen to change the situation You just seem intent on ignoring it.
The treaty is dead, if not officially-at least in the de facto sense. We don't know which it is specifically, but the one thing we do know is that of 2409 the Federation isn't holding itself to the treaty or the president's pledge to uphold it.
Then ask for better raptors. They may be bad ships, but it's not because they can cloak.
KDF players keep having a huge fit over this, but the reason FED players want it is because it's such a small change that it doesn't make sense to keep it tied to a console. Consoles have exploded in power and value such that equipping the Cloak before going anywhere is just stupid. Cloaks are a lot of fun, but they're nowhere near worth the console slot anymore. If they have to be an item, they should at least be devices.
What harm would integrated cloaking on three FED ships do to the KDF? Really think about that. PVP is a hot mess right now with no rewards, and it's already dominated by cloaking alpha-strike ships and JHAS's.
I doubt most KDF players would even notice it, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world. It makes no sense why KDF players keep storming into these threads making such a huge fuss, especially because they mostly turn a blind eye to reasonable arguments and just throw temper tantrums.
I've yet to see a rational, well thought out argument against integrating regular cloaks into a small number of FED ships.
Nothing changed - Feds still don't cloak (the 3 player ships don't count, as already covered) and the Treaty is not dead. Okeg's order was never revoked, and that alone is everything needed to say no Fed-cloaks.
If the Treaty is invalidated due to war, then go back to page 32, that's already been done.
It's not like the Federation is using Thalaron or Biogenic weapons or arming their away teams with Varon-Ts or something. It's just not comparable.
At the end of the day it was a concession the Federation made to maintain peace between them and the Romulan Star Empire. There is no longer peace between them, and thus the treaty is of no use.
"...in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships. "
Sounds a lot like a reversal on Okeg's earlier pledge to me. And IMO I'd say that player ships *do* count. There's nothing in the game via dialogue that indicates that only the player's ship is issued a cloaking device.
There is nothing in the game's dialogue to indicate NPC Feds are issued cloaks, and it isn't a reversal, just a throw-away line so that people can have their cloaking Defiants and Gal-Xs.
Again, you may not like it, but it's in the game. It's STO-canon.
If you're going to willfully ignore solid in-game evidence of the Feds using cloaks, then there's really just no talking to you at all on the subject.
We are at peace with the Klingon Defense Force (A step between stars), the romulan empire is defeated, or atleast not longer a treat, our only enemys are the iconians that should be able to overcome every cloaking technology within seconds. So against whom you wanna use those cloaks?
And also, the romulan republic as the new romulan state took all the treatys, the romulan empire isnt even accepted as a state anymore by the ferderation, so the treaty of algeron no longer affects sela but d`tan, and the ferderation isnt at war with the romulan republic, is she?
Against their own complete player incompetence. Some people suck so bad at this game that they think a cloak would change their flaws as a player. Boy are they in for a suprise.
The Borg. The Tholians. The Voth. The Undine.
Cloaks are fun. I'd like to use my cloak without feeling like I'm hampering my ship, especially during a gear reset where our equipment doesn't radically overpower our opponents.
Cloaks don't affect the PVE game much at all, except to make some encounters more fun. It dominates in PVP mostly because of the alpha strike, but PVP hasn't been balanced since almost the launch of the game.
So i do not see reason so we can not have Tire 6 ship whit Battle Clock.
It isn't STO canon - show a Fed NPC using a cloak. Players do not count.
Its about PvP mostly, not about lore, no matter how much some aggressive posters preach, multiple times like they would win the internet or something. And there are many enemies in PvE where a cloak comes in handy.
That been said, totaly looking forward for a fed phased cloak on a future Tier 6 fed ship.
Also one more thing, of topic. My post just got deleted. It seems some forum moderators are delete posts for no reason whatso ever. I get that thay may have other opinions, but still this is blunt abuse of power.
Is there anywhere, a higher person, where to bring this issue up?
Great, luckily for you there are 2 out of 3 factions in STO that provide that experience. One of them across the entire roster even. So you're covered.
Why don't KDF players just play Federation if the Defiant is so much better than Raptors?
Have you seen KDF players whine like this for a Defiant? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Yes.
Every single time this subject is brought up.
Every time.
So, what you're saying is that you live in Wonderland.
I don't even need to link you anything. You need only look at this very thread to see people talking about Raptors, and wishing they had the stats of the Defiant. Go ahead back a few pages and you'll see.
Every single time someone mentions the Defiant, a KDF player pops up to start talking about the Qin (in a Federation forum, no less).
If you can't be bothered to go back a few pages in this thread, though, then I've got nothing else to say to you.
I want to fly the Defiant because it's one of my favorite ships from the TV series. I want integrated cloaking on it because it's radically unbalanced for it to cost a console, hurts nobody for it to become integrated on a small number of Fed ships, and is fun. There's just no reason for it to still cost a console, and the fact that KDF players throw a fit every time the subject comes up is completely baffling.
Nobody even makes an effort to explain why they think it's not a good idea. They just feel hurt over the apparent lacking qualities of the Raptors and feel like other people shouldn't get nice things either. It's an incredibly immature attitude for such a small request.
Ohh now resorting to trolling I see. Whats the matter, deleting my post using moderator account wasnt enuf??
If its you who did is, then is really low of you. And i will get to the bottom of this, be sure of that.
Lets see how Cryptic feels about forum moderators using a mod forum account to delete posts for personal reasons, just becouse then dont like others opinions...
While he is definitely trolling, it's reaching to assume he has a super secret second moderator account that he uses to delete posts.
Moderators delete posts discussing the deletion of posts, or ones that violate the TOS. Without seeing the post, I can't say what you might have said to warrant deletion, but they're given a lot of leeway in the name of keeping the peace on these forums.
You're well on your way to a temp ban, though, if you're going to keep discussing the moderators and deleted posts like this.
What you're actually missing in this entire process is that 90% of those KDF players don't actually whine about getting a Defiant in a manner the Feds. whine about the cloak around here, but they simply make a statement that if you want integrated cloak on the Defiant you either need to pay for that benefit like KDF raptors do, or the ships in the KDF roster should be buffed to not pay a price for the same benefits that you want for a ship in a faction with no tradition of cloaking.
Big difference.
Oh no, someone mentioned a KDF raptor in a Federation forum!!! Alert the media!!!
We're DOOOOOOOOMED!!! :rolleyes:
Let's say I agree that costing a console slot is too much for a cloak. You won't agree to pay the price raptors pay for an integrated cloak either, amirite?
It's very simple actually if you wanted to understand. It's not about anyone getting or not getting "nice" things. It's about potential BS from the game studio developing this game. They've said themselves that they designed the KDF BoPs and raptors to pay certain prices for having integrated cloaks and battlecloaks. When and if you go back on your word and give the faction with no cloaking tradition an integrated cloak, you either need to apply the same 'price' to be paid for it or buff the ships that already "pay" for something that others don't pay anymore. Very simple.
Now if you ask me personally, this game is filled with stupid arbitrary decisions. In my opinion, every cloak should be an integrated battlecloak, just like in the shows. Leave it to Cryptic to overcomplicate things and create the mess we have now with cloaking between the factions.
I'm just working with what I'm given here. If you get an integrated cloak on a Defiant without paying any price in exchange, then so should KDF raptors and BoPs.
The biggest issue I have with topic like this is the sheer amount of Fed player greed around here and you know it. Maybe it's not you personally, but I'm almost 100% sure that once and if you get this, the vast majority of Feds would whine for integarted cloaks on every ship. And it's the Fed part of me that has a problem with this actually, I want to play in the faction I saw and loved on the shows - not some weird abomination because of all the whiners.
Raptors do not pay for their cloak. They may have less than ideal stats, but it's not because of the cloak, and you're going to have to pony up some evidence to the contrary if you want to keep asserting that point.
Birds-of-Prey pay for having battle cloaks and all-uni boff seating. That's not comparable to the Defiant at all, since all I'm talking about is regular cloaks.
And the only reason this is being discussed so much now is because of the addition of Romulans to the game. They have plenty of 5-tac console ships with penalty-free battle cloaks.
The game has changed. It's not just KDF vs. Feds anymore, and on top of that, the value of console slots has rocketed past where it was back when the cloaking device was first turned into a console.
In the current state of the game, the cloak being a console just does not make sense.
As far as being worried about this harming the integrity of the entire Federation faction, that's long since been gone. Most STFs are at least half full of people flying some alien Lockbox/Lobi ship anyway. Faction integrity is probably the last thing a handful of cloaking Fed ships would affect, after all the damage its already suffered.
Exactly.
I want to clarify my position:
If any ship from any faction has a cloak, it should be a battle-cloak, or enhanced battle-cloaks where appropriate. (T'Varo and B'rel only)
What is actually being discussed is Fed-cloaks being allowed at all, which is a very different question.
If the lore is changed to allow Fed-cloaks, then it is a different matter. As it stands however, the lore is no Fed-Cloaks, and certainly not Fed-cloaks for everyone. There are a myriad of ways to do it that would be just fine.
Oh so now I'm a moderator?!?
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Dude seriosuly, your join date says 2012 - that's plenty of time to realize someone like me who frequents the forum is not and never was a mod.
Come on now, I know you've been in almost every 'Fed needs cloaking' thread. I know that dozens upons dozens of people have presented evidence to you and you usually just stick your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalalala'.
Here, I'll try nevertheless:
Raptors do pay for their integrated cloak. The last evidence on this I can remember was stated by adjudicatorhawk in the thread about the Mogh Battlecruiser in the 'Galactic News Network' section when the Mogh was released, where he made it very clear that all KDF classes pay a price for integrated cloaking except for the battlecruisers, because they consider them native to the KDF.
You can search for it if you have the time and nerves, I'm sure you'll find it.
I'm not saying stuff hasn't changed. What I'm saying if changes to this are applied they need to be applied across the board. So either everyone pays or no one pays. We can't have stuff like - you have to pay, but I don't because I'm cooler than you.
Anyway, I think your point here is for the Fed ships that have access to cloak to have it integrated. Which leaves the Avenger in a limbo, but that's not actually the premise of this particular thread. The premise of this thread is 'phased cloaking' for all Fed ships. And that's the thing I have issues with, not integrating the cloak on ships that already have access to one - if it's balanced across the board.
No one's ever linked anything to that effect. They make claims, and then I post the ship stats and directly compare KDF and Fed ships, showing very clearly how most KDF ships do not pay for their cloak.
In the case of the Mogh, aside from crew count, it is identical to the Avenger, with the exception of the Mogh's cloak. The crew is the only difference -- 2000 on the Mogh, versus 500 on the Avenger. The clincher here is that it does not affect the purpose of the cloak: the alpha strike. The Mogh is a superior vessel for making alpha strikes than the Avenger, simply because it has one more console slot to work with.
Until someone provides a post from Cryptic saying they take a price for KDF cloaks, I don't see it as a valid argument. I have provided tons of evidence to prove my point in numerous threads.
And, again, with the addition of the Romulan ships and the ever increasing power of consoles, it makes no sense to still have the cloak tied to a console. It's woefully underpowered given the benefits of cloaking, and wildly unbalanced compared to the rest of the cloaking ships in the game.
The Defiant and the KDF do not exist in a vacuum. The game's balance at large is the whole reason people talk about this, and is why there's no harm in allowing the few cloaking Fed ships to have their cloaks integrated now.
(Incidentally, a search of "adjudicatorhawk" as a user and "mogh" in the key words nets zero results)