the thing about an exective order is that it can be repealed or overruled. Okeg, or more likely his sucessor can cancel it or the federation council and the federation courts can overrule that.
Okeg first made that order while there was an RSE around and still at peace with the KDF. That RSE IS GONE and until recently they were at war with the KDF. Considering the condition of the Federation by the start of the game you really think Okeg would still be in office?
Why shouldn't he be in office? Just because there's something in the lore you don't agree on doesn't mean it goes away. Otherwise I'd have 80% of this game scrapped
As long as the in-game lore doesn't state otherwise: a)Okeg is still in office and b) research and development on Starfleet cloaks is still banned, treaty or no treaty and c) feds still don't cloak in the IP, except for two ships in the entire franchise and one was from an alternate, collapsed timeline and even in AGT we have no indication that the cloak isn't just a one-shot Riker fitted on his ship; the other one having a loaned cloak that was allowed to operate in the gamma quadrant, but sisko repeatedly violated the treaty with the Romulans (albeit without any consequences, it seems). And those two ships are the only reason the STO versions can cloak - because it was on screen and fans want to play the Defiant an the E-D.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Why shouldn't he be in office? Just because there's something in the lore you don't agree on doesn't mean it goes away. Otherwise I'd have 80% of this game scrapped
As long as the in-game lore doesn't state otherwise: a)Okeg is still in office and b) research and development on Starfleet cloaks is still banned, treaty or no treaty and c) feds still don't cloak in the IP, except for two ships in the entire franchise and one was from an alternate, collapsed timeline and even in AGT we have no indication that the cloak isn't just a one-shot Riker fitted on his ship; the other one having a loaned cloak that was allowed to operate in the gamma quadrant, but sisko repeatedly violated the treaty with the Romulans (albeit without any consequences, it seems). And those two ships are the only reason the STO versions can cloak - because it was on screen and fans want to play the Defiant an the E-D.
The last Fed Avenger Battle Cruiser have cloak so pls
Please learn the difference between Ratifying a treaty and the use the executive powers. The RSE government was wiped out when Romules was destroyed. A president can not ratify or as you put it reinforce a treaty with out the counsel vote. Something you apparently do not understand.
So when Romulan government was destroyed and 2 new governments came to power the new RSE under Sela and the RR under D'Tan both would need new treaties to be ratified. Okeg's executive order circumvents needing of a new treaty.
So when people say the Treaty is invalid they are 100% correct as soon as the RSE reformed under Sela all treatys are void. The RSE would be a new government and would need to resign the treaty.
The issue of when the executive order happened really doesn't matter. the point people are making is that the treaty was over the only thing holding the feds back is Okeg executive order.
As far as Cryptic adding cloaks I get the feeling it maybe more a CBS thing then a Crytic thing.. but lore wise as soon as the Romulan government was wiped out and reformed under Sela those Treatys would of been voided. Only thing holding them back is Okeg.
Except the Treaty is not void - a fact you want to ignore because it means no Fed-cloaks. Same for you AQ - just because you want the RSE gone doesn't make it true, and as you have been told repeatedly, he is currently in office with a year plus left of this term, and another Fed/KDF war changes nothing.
All relevant parties have decided to carry on with the Treaty, the RSE in all forms, the RR, the Federation, the KDF. The Federation especially. If someone in universe was going to question it, they would have done it at some point by now, since this happened in Okeg's first of three terms.
That is the current status -> now, if Cryptic decide to move on from that in lore, that is a different thing. But right now, no Fed cloaks.
Except the Treaty is not void - a fact you want to ignore because it means no Fed-cloaks. Same for you AQ - just because you want the RSE gone doesn't make it true, and as you have been told repeatedly, he is currently in office with a year plus left of this term, and another Fed/KDF war changes nothing.
All relevant parties have decided to carry on with the Treaty, the RSE in all forms, the RR, the Federation, the KDF. The Federation especially. If someone in universe was going to question it, they would have done it at some point by now, since this happened in Okeg's first of three terms.
That is the current status -> now, if Cryptic decide to move on from that in lore, that is a different thing. But right now, no Fed cloaks.
The RSE i`ts not gone just have Senate and we do not know what happen whit Sela so we may see her in the next Exp ore the next season so just wait for it.
Except the Treaty is not void - a fact you want to ignore because it means no Fed-cloaks. Same for you AQ - just because you want the RSE gone doesn't make it true, and as you have been told repeatedly, he is currently in office with a year plus left of this term, and another Fed/KDF war changes nothing.
All relevant parties have decided to carry on with the Treaty, the RSE in all forms, the RR, the Federation, the KDF. The Federation especially. If someone in universe was going to question it, they would have done it at some point by now, since this happened in Okeg's first of three terms.
That is the current status -> now, if Cryptic decide to move on from that in lore, that is a different thing. But right now, no Fed cloaks.
Just stop it.. relevant party's.. like the whole Federation counsel.. you just do not understand the difference between a ratified treaty and a executive order.
Hate burst your made up story but this nothing to do with treaty and cloaks. The executive order is the ONLY thing keeping the Feds from cloaks not a invalid treaty. Not sure why that so hard for you to understand.
Okeg would of never had to use a executive order if the treaty was still in place.. not sure why you can not understand that. You have some false notion that you use executive power to reinforce treaty's.. that is not true.. any change to a treaty (even "reinforcing it") must be ratified by the federation counsel the president doesn't have that power. He does have the power through executive order to block research.
So in the end the treaty even by Okegs own words and actions show it was invalidated do to the destruction he the Romulan government after there home world was destroyed and the forming of a new RSE under Sela and the formation of the RR.
None of which changes the Federation no cloaking.. all it does it puts the blame of no cloaks on Okeg administration and a executive order and not some invalid treaty. It also opens the door for a new president or a majority in the federation counsel to over rule Okegs executive order. If they ever wanted to write that in.
Тhe Avengers i`ts a good ship even whit out the clock. I`ts not a bug the Dev say that this ship was design for a clock.
I'm pretty sure every ship in the game has a Clock, nobody is saying the Federation can't have Clocks. Every ship in the game should have a Clock built in, nobody thinks the ability to tell time is overpowered or an unfair advantage.
The Treaty of Algernon is irrelevant, it doesn't matter anymore.
Why? Because their is an Executive Order in place stopping Cloaks now. Anybody who thinks the President who in war time wouldn't authorise cloaks against the Klingons will now throw that out the window just because we have a Ceasefire between the Federation and the Klingons is deluding themselves.
As to all the people who think he should have been thrown out, well he wasn't and will probably be in power until 2412 (Based on simple maths involving his reelections). And even in 2412 there's no guarantee he won't still be in power after the election.
I'm not going to pretend to understand why the Avenger is Cloaking compatible. Perhaps because they know the Federation is so desperate for Cloaking devices that they will spend $25 on a ship just to get the Console off it.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I'm pretty sure every ship in the game has a Clock, nobody is saying the Federation can't have Clocks. Every ship in the game should have a Clock built in, nobody thinks the ability to tell time is overpowered or an unfair advantage.
The Treaty of Algernon is irrelevant, it doesn't matter anymore.
Why? Because their is an Executive Order in place stopping Cloaks now. Anybody who thinks the President who in war time wouldn't authorise cloaks against the Klingons will now throw that out the window just because we have a Ceasefire between the Federation and the Klingons is deluding themselves.
As to all the people who think he should have been thrown out, well he wasn't and will probably be in power until 2412 (Based on simple maths involving his reelections). And even in 2412 there's no guarantee he won't still be in power after the election.
What it does though is maybe open the door for Cryptic to give some spice to the Federation political intrigue. With a new expansion a new threat.. most likely a new war Okeg has dragged the Federation into another conflict... this time 70,000 light years away. They could use this as a reason for the Federation counsel to really look at the policy's of Okeg administration.
With so many player admirals bring up the issue of Okegs executive orders placing those same admirals ships and crew at great risk. His timid actions leading to a war with Klingons and such they could create a very interesting story arc for the Federation.
Will they do it? I doubt it but the time would be ripe for some rattling of the Federation political structure.
After all how many wars would a people sit back and let the same leader drag them through wile at the same time putting there people at risk by keeping potential life saving tech away from the defenders of the Federation.
The Romulan Star Empire (or simply, Romulan Empire) has been a major galactic power since the 22nd century and is the traditional government of the Romulan people and their subject worlds and species.
For most of recorded interstellar history, the Empire has been known for its xenophobic character and policies of extreme secrecy and territorial protectionism. The Hobus supernova of 2387, and the ensuing destruction of Romulus, threw the Empire into a great deal of turmoil, encompassing several civil wars, territorial separation, reunification and re-constitution. Since then, a new capital was established on Rator III, where Sela eventually proclaimed herself Empress in 2408. However, since her disappearance in 2409 (Cutting the Cord), the status of Rator III as capital is challanged by Romulan and Reman fugitives who strive for an eventual re-unification with the Vulcans and have founded a new faction - the Romulan Republic - on New Romulus.
Post Shinzon era
After the war the Romulan Senate was overthrown by a Reman military coup in 2379, but with the help of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E the situation was resolved quickly. Backed by Commander Tomalak, Senator Tal'aura proclaims herself to be the new Romulan Praetor and clashes with Commander Donatra.
Backed by the Unification movement Remans demand independence. In 2381 Romulan and Reman forces clash in the Romulan star system.
Donatra takes over several agricultural worlds and declares herself Empress of the Imperial Romulan State.
Taris
The Klingons seize the chance to retake Khitomer and invade Romulan space in 2382. Tal'aura reshapes the Romulan Senate and appoints Senators to foster her power to the disadvantage of the noble houses. Threatened by famine, Fleet Commander and proconsul Tomalak is tasked with retaking the worlds from Donatra. He appoints Taris to be his Admiral and second-in-command.
Famine ravages on Romulus in 2383. Tal'aura puts down riots with brutal force.
Sela follows Tomalak as proconsul, who is retired after loosing a power struggle to her in 2384. To resolve the conflict between the two Romulan states, Donatra appoints Taris as a representative and sends her to Romulus.
Tal'aura is assassinated and Sela publicly blames the Remans and the Unification movement.
Reintegration of the Imperial Romulan State
In 2385 Sela fosters her power by replacing Senators appointed by Tal'aura with noble house members. Donatra, Sela and the head of the Tal Shiar Rehaek agree on a reform of the Continuing Committee, sharing the power in the Empire. Chulan becomes the new Praetor. The Imperial Romulan State is dissolved and assimilated back into the Star Empire.
The same year, Donatra offers the Reman leader Xiomek citizenship to all Remans and representation on the Senate. Against objection by Sela, popular opinion and the Senate, Donatra and Xiomek succeed with the reform.
As it becomes apparent, that Remus has to be abandoned due to over-mining, the Remans are given control over the planet Crateris in 2386.
The Tal Shiar claims to have evidence that the noble houses are responsible for the murder of Tal'aura, but refuses to show the evidence to either Donatra or Sela. Open conflict emerges between Sela and Raheak, while Donatra remains neutral. In the escalating conflict, Sela is sentenced to death, but Donatra manages to convert the sentence into permanent exile. The following year, Sela leaves Romulus with a small fleet of loyal followers.
Hobus supernova
The Hobus event in 2387 has an devastating effect on the Empire, killing billions and destroying many core worlds, among them Romulus and Remus.
The mining ship Narada is upgraded with Borg technology to defend the beaten Empire. After destroying a Klingon fleet it vanished in the black hole, created by Ambassador Spock to contain the Hobus supernova.
Taris raises to be the new leader of the Empire in 2388.
The Romulan Colonial Organization Committee
In 2392 the new capital Rihan on Rator III is founded. The first institution to be created is the Romulan Colonial Organization Committee.
The RCOC reinstates the Romulan Senate in favor of a monarchy in the new Romulan constitution. Taris becomes the first Praetor in 2394.
The new Romulan Empire
When a Bloodfire epidemic strikes on Kevratas in 2396, Taris orders a strict quarantine and cut the planet off any supplies during the winter season.
In 2397 Kevratas declare independence. Tebok refuses to put down the movement by force as ordered by Taris. Instead he allows the leaders safe passage to be heard in front of the Senate. Taris tries to remove him from the office as the head of military, but is overruled by the Senators.
After a two year power struggle, the I.R.W. Alth'lndor, Tebok's flagship, is destroyed as the result of a computer virus infection.
Taris enters into an open power struggle with the Senate which is trying to further restrict her constitutional powers.
Sela's rise to Empress
Sela and Velal, Tebok's successor and student, conspire to overthrow Taris in 2401.
The Empire stands on the edge of civil war, when Velal's and Taris's forces engage in several skirmishes.
Taris suddenly disappears from Roma Nova in 2403. Backed by the presence of dozens of warships in orbit, Velal and Sela approach the Senate. Sela becomes the new Romulan Praetor, Velal the new head of military.
In the following years, Sela manages to reshape the Empire. In 2408 she is crowned Empress of the Romulan Star Empire in Roma Nova on Rator III.
Sela's disappearance and New Romulus
In 2409, Sela disappears while responding to an attack on a Tal Shiar base in the Brea System. (Cutting the Cord)
Her disappearance throws the Empire back into chaos, with different factions killing and dying for short-lived power.
Romulan and Reman fugitives under D'Tan and Obisek opposing Sela and the Tal Shiar are motivated by the new vacuum of power. Together they found the Romulan Republic, a peaceful and honest faction, with New Romulus as its capital.
On Stardate 82001.36, [2405] Federation President Aennik Okeg informed the Klingon Empire that the Federation will not leave the Hromi Cluster or the sectors surrounding it.
"We will continue our explorations of the cluster. We will not uproot Federation settlements that have been in these sectors for decades. You claim you have ancient claims to this region of space. I say that current possession counts for something."
"We do not want war," Okeg continues. "But we will defend ourselves."
The Klingon response was swift. Three days later a Klingon fleet invaded the Korvat system, a target that may have been chosen for its symbolic value. In 2289, the Korvat Colony was the site of the negotiations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire that were a contributing factor to the successful signing of the Khitomer Accords in 2293.
If the Federation was still welcome in Khitomer, it is reasonable to assume that Chancellor J'mpok would have attacked there," said Admiral T'nae on an episode of "Illuminating the City of Light."
"I do not believe that conquering the Korvat system is as important to the Klingons as the message. The alliance has ended."
The Klingons clashed with a fleet of Starfleet ships sent to protect the colony and stop Klingon landing parties attempting to forcibly remove Federation citizens from the planet.
"Initial reports from the front are good," said Starfleet spokesperson Marie Durant. "The U.S.S. Montgomery Scott was heavily damaged in the assault, but it is being towed to a starbase for repairs. We are confident that Starfleet can protect the residents of Korvat Colony, and the entire Federation."
The Klingons gained more support when a coalition of Nausicaan tribes signed a non-aggression pact with the Empire. Nausicaans who chose to swear fealty to the Klingon Empire were permitted to join the Klingon Defense Force and own property in the Empire.
"King Slathis of the Gorn should get the credit for bringing the Nausicaans into the Empire," said Tag Morkek of the Tellar News Service. "I think he sees the potential in a group of like-minded species ... like the Federation."
Observers of Klingon politics noted a development that could change affairs on Qo'noS when General Worf agreed to be gin'tak for Drax, son of Martok.
Worf has taken the title given to him by his old friend Martok, and now he will advice Martok's son on how to run his house," said an anonymous report. "Worf's skill in battle and politics could be just what the House of Martok needs to take a leading role in the Empire again." The Federation was gaining allies as well. The Cardassians agreed to a scientific exchange pact that further cemented the alliance between the Federation and the Detapa Council.
And on Ferenginar, Grand Nagus Rom used a portion of the profits from his trade agreements with the Cardassians to finance the passage of expanded technology and information sharing agreements with the Federation.
"He's tying us to those charity-loving, no-latinum no-goods in the Federation," raged Qaris, an independent Ferengi running a trading station in the Argelius system. "I'm a legitimate businessman! I won't stand for it!"
While many Ferengi opposed closer ties with the Federation, and others saw the profit available in trading with the Klingon Empire and other Federation foes, Rom argued that the future of business depended on good relations with the Federation.
When opposition from the Economic Congress of Ferengi Advisers proved too costly to overcome, Rom took his victories and ended his fight for a formal alliance with the Federation.
Buoyed by early victories against the Klingons and the Ferengi technology and trade agreements, Federation President Aennik Okeg sailed to an easy victory for his third term.
"Why change now?" asked Rosa Oliver, a geologist working for Janus Mining. "He seems to be doing a good job."
On Stardate 82626.64, the Gorn entered the war on the side of the Klingon Empire. A Gorn fleet launched an invasion of Sherman's Planet that was easily turned away by Federation forces at Deep Space K-7.
"I think the Gorn were testing us," said station commander Captain Shir th'Talias. "Now they know that we're ready for a fight."
Executive orders
United States Presidents issue executive orders to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law when they take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution, or are made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress that explicitly delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation). Like statutes or regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review, and may be struck down if deemed by the courts to be unsupported by statute or the Constitution. Major policy initiatives usually require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree laws will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging war, and in general fine policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes.
Since the only one challenging the Cloak treaty are certain players it appears that the Federation council has not had a problem with President Okeg's executive order reguarding cloaking technology.
The latest Federation-Klingon war started because the Federation would not honor its treaty commitments in the Khitomer Accords when asked by the Klingon Chancellor for assistance. When respected Starfleet Admirals requested that the Federation council reconsider the evidence of the Undine infiltration they were ignored.
You keep ignoring the issue of why the KDF felt it could take on the feds.. it was do to weakness.. the was said by Worf in Ds9.. that it was Federation show of weakness that makes the Empire feel it could defeat the Federations. The Feds had a reason to be skeptical of Klingon "evidence" after there invasion of Cardasia on there so called "evidence" of Dominion infiltration that was proven to be false and lead to Cardasia inviting the dominion to the alpha quadrent starting a war.
Another thing.. Worf left do to why? Weak leadership.. Even Feds own ambassador leaves do to a government that weak.. leading to being scared of any type of conflict.. that has lead the feds to even more wars..the Treaty/executive order being one of those weak stance of the Okeg government. So Ill stand by my point its weak leader ship that lead to the Klingon / Federation war.
DS9 the series covered from 2369-2375, Okeg was not in office during that time and somehow the war with the Klingons did not occur for till over 25 years later.
Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and defense service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions included the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, the advancement of Federation science and technology, the military defense of the Federation, and the practice of Federation diplomacy.
You can directly blame the Federation council for ignoring the Undine evidence and later when Ambassador Sokkath who convinced the Council to not aid the Klingons , but was later revealed to be a Undine, for not reexamining the Undine evidence.
yes you are.. Executive order is to create law not reinforce it. He stated the Treaty was void but to keep the peace I will use a executive order maintaining the out of law cloaking research.
The KDF and Feds knew that founders were in the Federation.. they didn't attack the Federation then.. that's a copout and excuse for a pretext for war.. with what they thought was a weak Federation.
They made peace even though both sides know that undine are infiltrating government. If the Klingons thought that they would be wiped out by attacking the Federation they would of never gone to out right war. This is out lined by Worf in DS9 when talking about the culture and government of the Klingon empire.
[QUOTE/] The Only Reason the scimitar has access to a Thalaron weapon [if you use the entire 3pc set] is that it was seen on the show. The same way the Defiant has a cloak because it was seen on the show.
In the TNG Pegasus we see that fed have the tech true that i`ts illegally. But what i`ts need it now a new treaty ore revisiting the old one whit the new treat.
And the Scimitar weapons was illegal but on the Defiant we do have a agreement whit the Romulan for it. The Fed now have a real chase to revisit this now and have 2 major points and that is Data on the Delta Quadrant and the Jenolan Dyson Sphere.[/QUOTE]
We are allies now so the seperate powers are free to investigate and share information without some sort of information exchange blackmail.
No it didn't.. the old RSE the one that had a republic and was not a dictatorship was dissolved when that happened all treaties with them are null and void. They cant recognize RSE when for one its leader is gone and has no diplomatic ties to federation. All they can say is yep the Sela RSE is still out there. That's it.. The RSE isn't not part of any dialogue with the spheres or other plans. It's a new government there for new treaties and diplomatic relations would have to be formed.
Okeg agreed that in a "narrow view point" doesn't matter if its narrow or not. It was invalidate with the fall of the RSE. other wise you do not need a executive order to reinstate the ban. If the Treaty was still in effect all he would have to do is ratify the treaty and to ratify the treaty he would need to bring it before the Federation counsel.. you do not use a executive order for that. The use of a executive order is a huge neon sign saying the treaty was invalid and to get around that he had to use executive powers.
In 2392 the new capital Rihan on Rator III is founded by the Romulan Star Empire. that was 18years ago
the RSE was over the Cutting the Cord and the Defeat I.R.W. Leahval the only thing left from the empire is the Tal Shiar and some they try enter the republic.
Thews was the leaders the res i`ts low rank oppressive and some bases.
The KDF, Fed, RR, and the Reman residents are hunting the the Tal Shiar after the events of the Turning Point. They may return ofc but more like spy and we do not know what happen to sela. I`me sorry but the Tal Shiar and some slaves dos not make a Empire.
Please learn the difference between Ratifying a treaty and the use the executive powers. The RSE government was wiped out when Romules was destroyed. A president can not ratify or as you put it reinforce a treaty with out the counsel vote. Something you apparently do not understand.
So when Romulan government was destroyed and 2 new governments came to power the new RSE under Sela and the RR under D'Tan both would need new treaties to be ratified. Okeg's executive order circumvents needing of a new treaty.
So when people say the Treaty is invalid they are 100% correct as soon as the RSE reformed under Sela all treatys are void. The RSE would be a new government and would need to resign the treaty.
The issue of when the executive order happened really doesn't matter. the point people are making is that the treaty was over the only thing holding the feds back is Okeg executive order.
As far as Cryptic adding cloaks I get the feeling it maybe more a CBS thing then a Crytic thing.. but lore wise as soon as the Romulan government was wiped out and reformed under Sela those Treatys would of been voided. Only thing holding them back is Okeg.
You don't have to resign every treaty, every time a new elected official takes office
the thing about an exective order is that it can be repealed or overruled. Okeg, or more likely his sucessor can cancel it or the federation council and the federation courts can overrule that.
Okeg first made that order while there was an RSE around and still at peace with the KDF. That RSE IS GONE and until recently they were at war with the KDF. Considering the condition of the Federation by the start of the game you really think Okeg would still be in office?
See above , already covered Okeg is still in office numerous times in this thread
What it does though is maybe open the door for Cryptic to give some spice to the Federation political intrigue. With a new expansion a new threat.. most likely a new war Okeg has dragged the Federation into another conflict... this time 70,000 light years away. They could use this as a reason for the Federation counsel to really look at the policy's of Okeg administration.
With so many player admirals bring up the issue of Okegs executive orders placing those same admirals ships and crew at great risk. His timid actions leading to a war with Klingons and such they could create a very interesting story arc for the Federation.
Will they do it? I doubt it but the time would be ripe for some rattling of the Federation political structure.
After all how many wars would a people sit back and let the same leader drag them through wile at the same time putting there people at risk by keeping potential life saving tech away from the defenders of the Federation.
The Iconians represent a clear and present danger to the current alliance as witnessed in the end of "Surface Tension". The Federation Council's lack of looking at the information when presented and then their failure to reexamine that decision when the primary opponent was revealed to be the enemy in disguise, places the blame in the Councils lap, as they have the ability to overide the executive order at any time.
Just stop it.. relevant party's.. like the whole Federation counsel.. you just do not understand the difference between a ratified treaty and a executive order.
Hate burst your made up story but this nothing to do with treaty and cloaks. The executive order is the ONLY thing keeping the Feds from cloaks not a invalid treaty. Not sure why that so hard for you to understand.
Okeg would of never had to use a executive order if the treaty was still in place.. not sure why you can not understand that. You have some false notion that you use executive power to reinforce treaty's.. that is not true.. any change to a treaty (even "reinforcing it") must be ratified by the federation counsel the president doesn't have that power. He does have the power through executive order to block research.
So in the end the treaty even by Okegs own words and actions show it was invalidated do to the destruction he the Romulan government after there home world was destroyed and the forming of a new RSE under Sela and the formation of the RR.
None of which changes the Federation no cloaking.. all it does it puts the blame of no cloaks on Okeg administration and a executive order and not some invalid treaty. It also opens the door for a new president or a majority in the federation counsel to over rule Okegs executive order. If they ever wanted to write that in.
It is only invalid in your incorrect eyes - in universe, it is still present. Not my fault you don't understand STO canon.
When Sela took over the government it became a new type of government.. before that it was a elected government ruled by the senate. So its not a change in government leaders ship its a totally new government. It became a dictatorship. So yes a new treaty would have to be made.
US government any Treaty must be ratified by a 2/3rds majority of the senate. The president CAN NOT evoke a treaty with out the senate vote. There for with a new type of government taking control after the destruction of Romules it would invalidated the Treaty.
Your argument is like saying in 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini took over Iran that our treaties with the Pahlavi dynasty would still be valid with the change in government types. In fact they were not valid at all after the change in government type.
The same happened with Romulan government.. it was taken over by a new government type and that would require new treaty's.
As far the US treaties and executive powers.
The President... shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur....
Article II, Section 2, Clause 2
The president can not use executive powers to make a treaty it must come from a 2/3rd majority of the senate.
He can though use a executive order to stop research such as what Bush did with the stem cell research and in STO what Okeg did.
As far the KDF/FED if I remember right it was a defense pact and so the Feds didn't violate anything when condemning the attack on the Gorn. The KDF view point was that the Undine were a threat to them there for they were going to attack the Gorn. Granted I do not remember everything that the accords were to cover but I think I'm remembering that part right.
If the KDF was invaded by a hostile force the feds would of defended them but because the KDF was doing a preemptive strike and attacking it was not considered part of the defense pact. so the FEDs would not assit the KDF.
The last Fed Avenger Battle Cruiser have cloak so pls
The Avenger does not come with a cloak. It can fit the one coming with the Defiant or G-X, but it doesn't come with one of it's own. Plskthxbye
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Remember this is a fictional universe that follows (mostly) it's own internal rules. Within the internal rules of this fictional universe, Okeg has that power (the ability to unilaterally order that a treaty be treated as 'valid' in spite of the internal politics of another treaty partner.)
This is really the only valid argument.. it is fiction, though the Federation is based on US government / UN. Yes there is some bad writing. Even so if you look at it logically there is no reason to make a executive order with a already valid order with the same law. Only logical reason to create a new executive order is do to the old one not longer being valid. Or the writes just totally suck... heh
the "Real world" example would be the U.S. and NATO unilaterally observing the Non-Proliferation treaties negotiated and signed with the Soviets during the Cold War after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
By your logic, they didn't have to do that...but fiction writers go off of real-world models, esp. modeling politics and diplomacy (they often go in weird directions that aren't realistic, but most of them, including Cryptic's, at least look at real-world examples before they write something.) this is a bit off.. for one the non purification was signed by all nuclear powers not just by the US and Russia. The treaty in sto was only between the Romulans and federation.
Another would be the continued observation of the Hague Conventions of the 1890's that forbade the use of soft-pointed expanding bullets in warfare.
Last time I checked, the Ottoman Empire was defunct, as was the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and don't even get me started on the Russian Empire as a state!)
yet, the U.S., Britain, France, Most of Europe, and their various client states still observe that (by your logic) long-defunct treaty-even with wars between signatories that ended said signatories (WW1, WW2, Korea...) and in conflicts with NON signatories (GWOT, Vietnam, Panama invasion, Gulf War, etc.)
Again it was signed buy multi-country treaties and those other country's still are around making that a irrelevant argument
Upshot is, the internal logic of the setting says "No", reinforced by incidents like the Kelso incident, which prompted the order, where, as happened BEFORE with the Pegasus, experimentation with Cloaking tech killed starships-the ones mounting it, and the reliability/Track record of success with the Defiant isn't one of success, either-the borrowed cloak failed multiple times in it's primary purpose and the ship carrying it eventually was destroyed in action.
the Defiant's cloak never "failed" do to not working right its was always battle damage or sabotage. Battle damage can disable any cloaking ships cloak. Or did all the Romulan cloaks just failed or KDF ships cloaks just failed because they were destroyed in battle?
So that's three strikes so far on the technical end. Pegasus (lost power and materialized in an asteroid), Kelso (coolant leak blew up the ship) and Defiant (Cloak was ineffective as a defensive/offensive or reconaissance tool), combined with De Jure findings by the Federation government itself ("We're still going to uphold the treaty provisions even though it's really inconvenient.")
the only strike is the phase cloak.. that's it and it was new tech in experiential phase. Your other points just are wrong and can effect any ship taking damage or sabotage. As far as upholding a "treaty" upholding the treaty does not mean its a valid treaty all it means is that you still follow its rules by choice. You are free to violate it any time because its no longer binding. for Okeg to force Star fleet not to research it he had to make a executive order other wise they could of / would of legally been able to. if the treaty was still binding that order would never been needed.
It is amusing how a Treaty banning Fed Cloaks is invalidated in your view because one party no longer exists, yet when someone (HoBO of note it must be said for declaring interests) points out a similar real world Treaty in a similar real world state - "Again it was signed buy multi-country treaties and those other country's still are around making that a irrelevant argument" - is your defence.
Which is it?
The Federation agrees to be bound by the Treaty, the RSE in all 3 forms agrees to the Treaty. Thus, in universe, it is valid. As I pointed out earlier, it has been two terms in office since the order by Aennik Okeg - if someone wanted to put it to the test in the numerous Federation courts of Law, they would have done - This is the Federation, where a sentient hologram who tried to take over the Enterprise is deemed by some to be imprisoned without trial, challenging the Treaty on the grounds you want is 99% certain to have been done.
Now, if Cryptic decides to revise the lore to allow Fed-Cloaks (numerous ways of doing it) then we can cross that bridge when we come to it. But until then, no Fed-cloaks. Or just use Mask Energy Signature, or roll a Rom or KDF.
It is amusing how a Treaty banning Fed Cloaks is invalidated in your view because one party no longer exists, yet when someone (HoBO of note it must be said for declaring interests) points out a similar real world Treaty in a similar real world state - "Again it was signed buy multi-country treaties and those other country's still are around making that a irrelevant argument" - is your defence.
Which is it?
The Federation agrees to be bound by the Treaty, the RSE in all 3 forms agrees to the Treaty. Thus, in universe, it is valid. As I pointed out earlier, it has been two terms in office since the order by Aennik Okeg - if someone wanted to put it to the test in the numerous Federation courts of Law, they would have done - This is the Federation, where a sentient hologram who tried to take over the Enterprise is deemed by some to be imprisoned without trial, challenging the Treaty on the grounds you want is 99% certain to have been done.
Now, if Cryptic decides to revise the lore to allow Fed-Cloaks (numerous ways of doing it) then we can cross that bridge when we come to it. But until then, no Fed-cloaks. Or just use Mask Energy Signature, or roll a Rom or KDF.
It has nothing to do with whether the Romulan Star Empire still exists as a polity.
That is nothing more than a red herring.
In response to the fallout from the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, and increased open hostilities with the Klingon Empire, the Federation began deploying cloaking starships geared toward warfare.
After the Accords fell through, dissolving the alliance, in 2399:
-The Gallant Class
-The Galaxy-X Class
-The Sao Paulo Class
-The Venture-X Class
New classes that came out of the shipyards with cloaking technology equipped and operational.
The Defiant and (I'm assuming) Vigilant Classes, two older types, are coming out of the yards with cloaking technology equipped and operational. Have been since the Khitomer Accords went kaput and formal hostilities began.
The Avenger Class, which came online in 2409, was capable of being easily fitted with cloaking technology.
When the President made his public statement after the Kelso incident in 2395, the UFP and Klingon Empire were not formally at war. Thus, his commitment to the Treaty of Algeron was a good political and diplomatic move.
A lot changed in four years.
And I can assure you, I DO know my game canon.
The fact of the matter, based on information from BOTH the ship write ups and Path to 2409, is that the Federation no longer honors the Treaty as of 2399, when war with the Empire was evident. Starfleet has been deploying ship classes utilizing cloak technology, in a fully operational manner.
It was the war with the Klingon Empire, and dissolution of the Khitomer Accords, that prompted this move. The status of the Romulan Star Empire has nothing to do with it.
The Treaty of Algeron, signed in 2311 by the Romulan Star Empire and the United Federation of Planets, prohibited Federation cloaking devices. This agreement has been a source of controversy in Starfleet, where some officers believed it severely limited tactical options and put the Federation at a disadvantage.
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
How is whole treaty thing still a debate? It states clearly in-game that the Federation is developing and implementing cloaks.
Now, from a game balance point of view, I personally don't think Feds need new types of cloaks (and I fly a FTER almost exclusively, for what it's worth). I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
How is it cost-free? I'm not against the few Fed ships that can cloak atm getting their basic cloaks integrated. But to say that Romulans and KDF get theirs cost-free...ain't quite so true.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
How is whole treaty thing still a debate? It states clearly in-game that the Federation is developing and implementing cloaks.
Now, from a game balance point of view, I personally don't think Feds need new types of cloaks (and I fly a FTER almost exclusively, for what it's worth). I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
and that's all we are asking with a new zen ship having the phase cloak and be like Pegasus.
How is it cost-free? I'm not against the few Fed ships that can cloak atm getting their basic cloaks integrated. But to say that Romulans and KDF get theirs cost-free...ain't quite so true.
When you compare Romulan ships to Federation ships, they suffer no stat cost to carrying those cloaks. A lot of people like to point to their overall decreased power levels, but that's a cost for the singularity powers, not the battle cloak. There are still 5-Tac console Romulan ships, and nothing's stopping them from getting to 125 Weapons power for some of the most devastating alpha strikes in the game. They don't have to use up a console slot for that cloak.
Same with the KDF ships. Cryptic seems to design the typical KDF ship with a "less Shields, more Hull" mindset, when comparing them to their closest FED equivalent. The cloak doesn't factor into their stat costs either, with the exception of the Raider (which uses a Battle Cloak and has all Universal Boff slots).
So given the cost-free integration of especially the Romulan cloaks, giving three ships (six including Fleet variants) a regular integrated cloak is not asking too much for the sake of balance. At this point in the game, and continuing into the future, Console slots are worth way more than Cloaks, and it's too hefty a price to pay for what you get.
How is whole treaty thing still a debate? It states clearly in-game that the Federation is developing and implementing cloaks.
Now, from a game balance point of view, I personally don't think Feds need new types of cloaks (and I fly a FTER almost exclusively, for what it's worth). I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
Not only that, but as I pointed out early in the thread, the Federation President's vow to honor the treaty (at least in regards to Taris) took place before 2409 (as Taris was still in charge).
This should be damning evidence that the Federation has reversed their earlier decision as voiced by the President, if not openly, at least in practice.
Heck, the President even mentions in the Path to 2409 that the Federation might not be legally obliged to honor the treaty, but decided to honor it to avoid war. Guess what, Sela's regime was at war with the Federation.
And paying a console slot for a cloak that can't be used in combat is a pretty steep tax in this age of fleet UR consoles and crafted UR consoles. (and again, Romulans pay nothing in exchange for their far superior battle-cloaking abilities)
So I really can't see any plausible in-universe reason why this it shouldn't be Ok for other fed ships to use the console, and I really don't buy that the console being available for other Fed ships would be unbalancing either.
It has nothing to do with whether the Romulan Star Empire still exists as a polity.
That is nothing more than a red herring.
In response to the fallout from the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, and increased open hostilities with the Klingon Empire, the Federation began deploying cloaking starships geared toward warfare.
After the Accords fell through, dissolving the alliance, in 2399:
-The Gallant Class
-The Galaxy-X Class
-The Sao Paulo Class
-The Venture-X Class
New classes that came out of the shipyards with cloaking technology equipped and operational.
The Defiant and (I'm assuming) Vigilant Classes, two older types, are coming out of the yards with cloaking technology equipped and operational. Have been since the Khitomer Accords went kaput and formal hostilities began.
The Avenger Class, which came online in 2409, was capable of being easily fitted with cloaking technology.
When the President made his public statement after the Kelso incident in 2395, the UFP and Klingon Empire were not formally at war. Thus, his commitment to the Treaty of Algeron was a good political and diplomatic move.
A lot changed in four years.
And I can assure you, I DO know my game canon.
The fact of the matter, based on information from BOTH the ship write ups and Path to 2409, is that the Federation no longer honors the Treaty as of 2399, when war with the Empire was evident. Starfleet has been deploying ship classes utilizing cloak technology, in a fully operational manner.
It was the war with the Klingon Empire, and dissolution of the Khitomer Accords, that prompted this move. The status of the Romulan Star Empire has nothing to do with it.
And two of those ships featured cloaks in canon, and were only given cloaks because they had them in the show, one as a special exclusive only for Gamma Quadrant use and the other it was never covered why. Two more are C-Store improvements and come under the same heading.
The Avenger is just plain wrong, with no justification for cloaking other than money in.
Also, these are player ships, no Fed NPC of these ships uses a cloak - and it is NPC ships we should look at, as player ships are not even STO canon, let alone anything resembling important.
Another Fed/KDF war changes absolutely nothing, just like it changed nothing every other time Feds and Klingons decided to have a war. Which is often with the nature of Klingons.
How is whole treaty thing still a debate? It states clearly in-game that the Federation is developing and implementing cloaks.
Now, from a game balance point of view, I personally don't think Feds need new types of cloaks (and I fly a FTER almost exclusively, for what it's worth). I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
Because money - people who want fed-cloaks will pay for it. That is the only reason, and the above is just a cop-out excuse, and doesn't change the STO canon about Fed-cloaks.
Patrickngo has made an appearance with his KDF biased propaganda and anti-Fed rigged facts. This is officially a Fed Cloaking Thread now. Expect more of the Red Rage brigade to come in to try and spam and derail it into lockedom.
:rolleyes:
Bye the way, the Xindi Escort is now the best Escort in the game, it does everything 'escort' the Defiant does, better.
Escort vs. Raptor: Raptor will have lower shields, poorer inertia, poorer turn-rate, and is saddled with significantly higher crew to produce a slower hull recovery for that higher hull.
The difference in turn rate is present but not huge, and the Somraw has the same Inertia rating as the Defiant. They both also have higher Shield Modifier and Hull.
You can compare the console layout, but they all have the same number of consoles. Cryptic is well known for treating all consoles as equal despite this not being the case. The problem isn't the amount of stats for Raptors, but how they're laid out. They may not have the best layouts, but they're not necessarily weaker than the Defiant, and definitely don't lose anything for having an integrated Cloak.
Raptor vs. Warbird: Warbird pays a small penalty to over-all power that can be skilled and equipped away, has a full on Battlecloak AND Singularity powers, and full access to a complete set of Duty and Bridge officers that KDF and Feds don't get to lower cooldown, boost stealthing, and increase both duration and damage from Decloak Alphas.
This disparity is exactly why existing Fed ships should have their cloaks integrated. I don't even understand why you're only comparing Warbirds to Raptors in a conversation about Fed ships.
Likewise, the Avenger recovers crew faster than the Mogh, which means any hull hit that doesn't kill it, (Ceterus Paribus), it's going to be back to 100% faster than an equally equipped Mogh.
This is a mechanical problem with the game itself: crew has never worked properly. Cryptic originally intended for crew to actually be better the more you had, but never got it working the way it should.
And aside from crew, both ships are identical with the exception that the Mogh gets an integrated cloak.
Even in the area the Devs have outright stated that KDF BC's don't "Pay" for Cloaking, they pay instead for being KDF ships.
NOw, me, I'm fine with giving the Defiant/Fleet Defiant the same Stats as the Qin/Fleet Qin and letting it have integrated cloaking-but I think the forums would explode and there would be arsons in California and such if the Developers did that.
Taken all together here, it sounds like you have a bigger gripe with the way Raptors are treated in game than actually allowing Feds to have integrated cloaks. Raptor stats may or may not be well thought out, but that's true of a lot of ships in the game (Galaxy-R comes immediately to mind), but that's just poor design on Cryptic's part.
Maybe instead of arguing against integrating cloaking for a small number of Fed ships, you should argue for better KDF Raptors. The existence of the Romulan faction, and history of cloaking with the KDF, have made it clear that cloaks aren't worth a console slot and Feds should not be forced to use one for them. It's really that simple.
Shouting down Defiant pilots isn't going to get you a better Raptor.
Because money - people who want fed-cloaks will pay for it. That is the only reason, and the above is just a cop-out excuse, and doesn't change the STO canon about Fed-cloaks.
It sure does. You don't have to like it, but you're not the one in charge of STO canon -- Cryptic is.
And two of those ships featured cloaks in canon, and were only given cloaks because they had them in the show, one as a special exclusive only for Gamma Quadrant use and the other it was never covered why. Two more are C-Store improvements and come under the same heading.
The Avenger is just plain wrong, with no justification for cloaking other than money in.
Also, these are player ships, no Fed NPC of these ships uses a cloak - and it is NPC ships we should look at, as player ships are not even STO canon, let alone anything resembling important.
Another Fed/KDF war changes absolutely nothing, just like it changed nothing every other time Feds and Klingons decided to have a war. Which is often with the nature of Klingons.
Because money - people who want fed-cloaks will pay for it. That is the only reason, and the above is just a cop-out excuse, and doesn't change the STO canon about Fed-cloaks.
Wow.. talk about head in sand...
You try to argue with me about cloaks and are proven wrong on multiple points from new romulan government to the fact that Sela declareing war voids the treaty any how.
Then shown a quote that as of now Federation is in fact in the STO game world researching Cloak. Validating that the Treaty is no more.
Then try to bring up the whole non-canon shouldn't get cloaks... hate to break it to you.. if that's the case KDF shouldn't get carriers, any gorn ships, there Bops should be 1 shot by main phaser array of galaxy class star ships... I mean hey after all that's canon.
Then use its the gimmick to make money argument... like that has any relevance at all.
After multiple people show why through the progression of lore and logic the Federation would use cloaks you still argue.
The fact is Federation will get cloaks.. even from there own research or as pointed out in enterprise that Federation will absorb the Klingon Empire any how.
The issue is its your own personal issue with it.. has nothing to do with game lore.
You bring up balance.. like some how game balance is locked in stone and can never be changed. It's a totally irrational argument. Given at a whim Cryptic can change the balance of anything in game.
Maybe you should stop putting you energy into arguing a lost cause. Instead discuses how to balance Fed/Rom/KDF cloak imbalance. Things like making all cloaks battle cloaks, increasing performance of KDF ships to compensate, or even making each factions cloak slightly different. such as Romulan having the fastest battle cloak, kdf n2d fastest and the feds the slowest and changing the time that a cloaking/decloaking ship is vulnerable. Or even change the damage coming out of cloak.. where KDF has the strongest decloaking attack but has less hull, romulans in the middle of feds having the weakest out of cloak buff. There are so many way you can balance and still have faction flavor.
Comments
Why shouldn't he be in office? Just because there's something in the lore you don't agree on doesn't mean it goes away. Otherwise I'd have 80% of this game scrapped
As long as the in-game lore doesn't state otherwise: a)Okeg is still in office and b) research and development on Starfleet cloaks is still banned, treaty or no treaty and c) feds still don't cloak in the IP, except for two ships in the entire franchise and one was from an alternate, collapsed timeline and even in AGT we have no indication that the cloak isn't just a one-shot Riker fitted on his ship; the other one having a loaned cloak that was allowed to operate in the gamma quadrant, but sisko repeatedly violated the treaty with the Romulans (albeit without any consequences, it seems). And those two ships are the only reason the STO versions can cloak - because it was on screen and fans want to play the Defiant an the E-D.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The last Fed Avenger Battle Cruiser have cloak so pls
Except the Treaty is not void - a fact you want to ignore because it means no Fed-cloaks. Same for you AQ - just because you want the RSE gone doesn't make it true, and as you have been told repeatedly, he is currently in office with a year plus left of this term, and another Fed/KDF war changes nothing.
All relevant parties have decided to carry on with the Treaty, the RSE in all forms, the RR, the Federation, the KDF. The Federation especially. If someone in universe was going to question it, they would have done it at some point by now, since this happened in Okeg's first of three terms.
That is the current status -> now, if Cryptic decide to move on from that in lore, that is a different thing. But right now, no Fed cloaks.
And that is a convient bug which only remains because it sells Avengers.
The RSE i`ts not gone just have Senate and we do not know what happen whit Sela so we may see her in the next Exp ore the next season so just wait for it.
Тhe Avengers i`ts a good ship even whit out the clock. I`ts not a bug the Dev say that this ship was design for a clock.
Just stop it.. relevant party's.. like the whole Federation counsel.. you just do not understand the difference between a ratified treaty and a executive order.
Hate burst your made up story but this nothing to do with treaty and cloaks. The executive order is the ONLY thing keeping the Feds from cloaks not a invalid treaty. Not sure why that so hard for you to understand.
Okeg would of never had to use a executive order if the treaty was still in place.. not sure why you can not understand that. You have some false notion that you use executive power to reinforce treaty's.. that is not true.. any change to a treaty (even "reinforcing it") must be ratified by the federation counsel the president doesn't have that power. He does have the power through executive order to block research.
So in the end the treaty even by Okegs own words and actions show it was invalidated do to the destruction he the Romulan government after there home world was destroyed and the forming of a new RSE under Sela and the formation of the RR.
None of which changes the Federation no cloaking.. all it does it puts the blame of no cloaks on Okeg administration and a executive order and not some invalid treaty. It also opens the door for a new president or a majority in the federation counsel to over rule Okegs executive order. If they ever wanted to write that in.
I'm pretty sure every ship in the game has a Clock, nobody is saying the Federation can't have Clocks. Every ship in the game should have a Clock built in, nobody thinks the ability to tell time is overpowered or an unfair advantage.
The Treaty of Algernon is irrelevant, it doesn't matter anymore.
Why? Because their is an Executive Order in place stopping Cloaks now. Anybody who thinks the President who in war time wouldn't authorise cloaks against the Klingons will now throw that out the window just because we have a Ceasefire between the Federation and the Klingons is deluding themselves.
As to all the people who think he should have been thrown out, well he wasn't and will probably be in power until 2412 (Based on simple maths involving his reelections). And even in 2412 there's no guarantee he won't still be in power after the election.
I'm not going to pretend to understand why the Avenger is Cloaking compatible. Perhaps because they know the Federation is so desperate for Cloaking devices that they will spend $25 on a ship just to get the Console off it.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
What it does though is maybe open the door for Cryptic to give some spice to the Federation political intrigue. With a new expansion a new threat.. most likely a new war Okeg has dragged the Federation into another conflict... this time 70,000 light years away. They could use this as a reason for the Federation counsel to really look at the policy's of Okeg administration.
With so many player admirals bring up the issue of Okegs executive orders placing those same admirals ships and crew at great risk. His timid actions leading to a war with Klingons and such they could create a very interesting story arc for the Federation.
Will they do it? I doubt it but the time would be ripe for some rattling of the Federation political structure.
After all how many wars would a people sit back and let the same leader drag them through wile at the same time putting there people at risk by keeping potential life saving tech away from the defenders of the Federation.
The Romulan Star Empire (or simply, Romulan Empire) has been a major galactic power since the 22nd century and is the traditional government of the Romulan people and their subject worlds and species.
For most of recorded interstellar history, the Empire has been known for its xenophobic character and policies of extreme secrecy and territorial protectionism. The Hobus supernova of 2387, and the ensuing destruction of Romulus, threw the Empire into a great deal of turmoil, encompassing several civil wars, territorial separation, reunification and re-constitution. Since then, a new capital was established on Rator III, where Sela eventually proclaimed herself Empress in 2408. However, since her disappearance in 2409 (Cutting the Cord), the status of Rator III as capital is challanged by Romulan and Reman fugitives who strive for an eventual re-unification with the Vulcans and have founded a new faction - the Romulan Republic - on New Romulus.
Post Shinzon era
- After the war the Romulan Senate was overthrown by a Reman military coup in 2379, but with the help of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E the situation was resolved quickly. Backed by Commander Tomalak, Senator Tal'aura proclaims herself to be the new Romulan Praetor and clashes with Commander Donatra.
- Backed by the Unification movement Remans demand independence. In 2381 Romulan and Reman forces clash in the Romulan star system.
- Donatra takes over several agricultural worlds and declares herself Empress of the Imperial Romulan State.
Taris- The Klingons seize the chance to retake Khitomer and invade Romulan space in 2382. Tal'aura reshapes the Romulan Senate and appoints Senators to foster her power to the disadvantage of the noble houses. Threatened by famine, Fleet Commander and proconsul Tomalak is tasked with retaking the worlds from Donatra. He appoints Taris to be his Admiral and second-in-command.
- Famine ravages on Romulus in 2383. Tal'aura puts down riots with brutal force.
- Sela follows Tomalak as proconsul, who is retired after loosing a power struggle to her in 2384. To resolve the conflict between the two Romulan states, Donatra appoints Taris as a representative and sends her to Romulus.
- Tal'aura is assassinated and Sela publicly blames the Remans and the Unification movement.
- Reintegration of the Imperial Romulan State
- In 2385 Sela fosters her power by replacing Senators appointed by Tal'aura with noble house members. Donatra, Sela and the head of the Tal Shiar Rehaek agree on a reform of the Continuing Committee, sharing the power in the Empire. Chulan becomes the new Praetor. The Imperial Romulan State is dissolved and assimilated back into the Star Empire.
- The same year, Donatra offers the Reman leader Xiomek citizenship to all Remans and representation on the Senate. Against objection by Sela, popular opinion and the Senate, Donatra and Xiomek succeed with the reform.
- As it becomes apparent, that Remus has to be abandoned due to over-mining, the Remans are given control over the planet Crateris in 2386.
- The Tal Shiar claims to have evidence that the noble houses are responsible for the murder of Tal'aura, but refuses to show the evidence to either Donatra or Sela. Open conflict emerges between Sela and Raheak, while Donatra remains neutral. In the escalating conflict, Sela is sentenced to death, but Donatra manages to convert the sentence into permanent exile. The following year, Sela leaves Romulus with a small fleet of loyal followers.
- Hobus supernova
- The Hobus event in 2387 has an devastating effect on the Empire, killing billions and destroying many core worlds, among them Romulus and Remus.
- The mining ship Narada is upgraded with Borg technology to defend the beaten Empire. After destroying a Klingon fleet it vanished in the black hole, created by Ambassador Spock to contain the Hobus supernova.
- Taris raises to be the new leader of the Empire in 2388.
The Romulan Colonial Organization Committee- In 2392 the new capital Rihan on Rator III is founded. The first institution to be created is the Romulan Colonial Organization Committee.
- The RCOC reinstates the Romulan Senate in favor of a monarchy in the new Romulan constitution. Taris becomes the first Praetor in 2394.
- The new Romulan Empire
- When a Bloodfire epidemic strikes on Kevratas in 2396, Taris orders a strict quarantine and cut the planet off any supplies during the winter season.
- In 2397 Kevratas declare independence. Tebok refuses to put down the movement by force as ordered by Taris. Instead he allows the leaders safe passage to be heard in front of the Senate. Taris tries to remove him from the office as the head of military, but is overruled by the Senators.
- After a two year power struggle, the I.R.W. Alth'lndor, Tebok's flagship, is destroyed as the result of a computer virus infection.
- Taris enters into an open power struggle with the Senate which is trying to further restrict her constitutional powers.
- Sela's rise to Empress
- Sela and Velal, Tebok's successor and student, conspire to overthrow Taris in 2401.
- The Empire stands on the edge of civil war, when Velal's and Taris's forces engage in several skirmishes.
- Taris suddenly disappears from Roma Nova in 2403. Backed by the presence of dozens of warships in orbit, Velal and Sela approach the Senate. Sela becomes the new Romulan Praetor, Velal the new head of military.
- In the following years, Sela manages to reshape the Empire. In 2408 she is crowned Empress of the Romulan Star Empire in Roma Nova on Rator III.
Sela's disappearance and New RomulusStart of the Federation-Klingon war 2405-2410
The Path to 2409: Volume 26, Chapter 1-6
"We will continue our explorations of the cluster. We will not uproot Federation settlements that have been in these sectors for decades. You claim you have ancient claims to this region of space. I say that current possession counts for something."
"We do not want war," Okeg continues. "But we will defend ourselves."
The Klingon response was swift. Three days later a Klingon fleet invaded the Korvat system, a target that may have been chosen for its symbolic value. In 2289, the Korvat Colony was the site of the negotiations between the Federation and the Klingon Empire that were a contributing factor to the successful signing of the Khitomer Accords in 2293.
If the Federation was still welcome in Khitomer, it is reasonable to assume that Chancellor J'mpok would have attacked there," said Admiral T'nae on an episode of "Illuminating the City of Light."
"I do not believe that conquering the Korvat system is as important to the Klingons as the message. The alliance has ended."
The Klingons clashed with a fleet of Starfleet ships sent to protect the colony and stop Klingon landing parties attempting to forcibly remove Federation citizens from the planet.
"Initial reports from the front are good," said Starfleet spokesperson Marie Durant. "The U.S.S. Montgomery Scott was heavily damaged in the assault, but it is being towed to a starbase for repairs. We are confident that Starfleet can protect the residents of Korvat Colony, and the entire Federation."
The Klingons gained more support when a coalition of Nausicaan tribes signed a non-aggression pact with the Empire. Nausicaans who chose to swear fealty to the Klingon Empire were permitted to join the Klingon Defense Force and own property in the Empire.
"King Slathis of the Gorn should get the credit for bringing the Nausicaans into the Empire," said Tag Morkek of the Tellar News Service. "I think he sees the potential in a group of like-minded species ... like the Federation."
Observers of Klingon politics noted a development that could change affairs on Qo'noS when General Worf agreed to be gin'tak for Drax, son of Martok.
Worf has taken the title given to him by his old friend Martok, and now he will advice Martok's son on how to run his house," said an anonymous report. "Worf's skill in battle and politics could be just what the House of Martok needs to take a leading role in the Empire again." The Federation was gaining allies as well. The Cardassians agreed to a scientific exchange pact that further cemented the alliance between the Federation and the Detapa Council.
And on Ferenginar, Grand Nagus Rom used a portion of the profits from his trade agreements with the Cardassians to finance the passage of expanded technology and information sharing agreements with the Federation.
"He's tying us to those charity-loving, no-latinum no-goods in the Federation," raged Qaris, an independent Ferengi running a trading station in the Argelius system. "I'm a legitimate businessman! I won't stand for it!"
While many Ferengi opposed closer ties with the Federation, and others saw the profit available in trading with the Klingon Empire and other Federation foes, Rom argued that the future of business depended on good relations with the Federation.
When opposition from the Economic Congress of Ferengi Advisers proved too costly to overcome, Rom took his victories and ended his fight for a formal alliance with the Federation.
Buoyed by early victories against the Klingons and the Ferengi technology and trade agreements, Federation President Aennik Okeg sailed to an easy victory for his third term.
"Why change now?" asked Rosa Oliver, a geologist working for Janus Mining. "He seems to be doing a good job."
On Stardate 82626.64, the Gorn entered the war on the side of the Klingon Empire. A Gorn fleet launched an invasion of Sherman's Planet that was easily turned away by Federation forces at Deep Space K-7.
"I think the Gorn were testing us," said station commander Captain Shir th'Talias. "Now they know that we're ready for a fight."
Executive orders
United States Presidents issue executive orders to help officers and agencies of the executive branch manage the operations within the federal government itself. Executive orders have the full force of law when they take authority from a power granted directly to the Executive by the Constitution, or are made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress that explicitly delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation). Like statutes or regulations promulgated by government agencies, executive orders are subject to judicial review, and may be struck down if deemed by the courts to be unsupported by statute or the Constitution. Major policy initiatives usually require approval by the legislative branch, but executive orders have significant influence over the internal affairs of government, deciding how and to what degree laws will be enforced, dealing with emergencies, waging war, and in general fine policy choices in the implementation of broad statutes.
Since the only one challenging the Cloak treaty are certain players it appears that the Federation council has not had a problem with President Okeg's executive order reguarding cloaking technology.
The latest Federation-Klingon war started because the Federation would not honor its treaty commitments in the Khitomer Accords when asked by the Klingon Chancellor for assistance. When respected Starfleet Admirals requested that the Federation council reconsider the evidence of the Undine infiltration they were ignored.
Deep Space Nine
DS9 the series covered from 2369-2375, Okeg was not in office during that time and somehow the war with the Klingons did not occur for till over 25 years later.
[url="http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet+]Starleet[/url]
Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and defense service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions included the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, the advancement of Federation science and technology, the military defense of the Federation, and the practice of Federation diplomacy.
You can directly blame the Federation council for ignoring the Undine evidence and later when Ambassador Sokkath who convinced the Council to not aid the Klingons , but was later revealed to be a Undine, for not reexamining the Undine evidence.
DS9 was 30 years before the war started.
In the TNG Pegasus we see that fed have the tech true that i`ts illegally. But what i`ts need it now a new treaty ore revisiting the old one whit the new treat.
And the Scimitar weapons was illegal but on the Defiant we do have a agreement whit the Romulan for it. The Fed now have a real chase to revisit this now and have 2 major points and that is Data on the Delta Quadrant and the Jenolan Dyson Sphere.[/QUOTE]
We are allies now so the seperate powers are free to investigate and share information without some sort of information exchange blackmail.
In 2392 the new capital Rihan on Rator III is founded by the Romulan Star Empire. that was 18years ago
See above
You don't have to resign every treaty, every time a new elected official takes office
See above , already covered Okeg is still in office numerous times in this thread
The Iconians represent a clear and present danger to the current alliance as witnessed in the end of "Surface Tension". The Federation Council's lack of looking at the information when presented and then their failure to reexamine that decision when the primary opponent was revealed to be the enemy in disguise, places the blame in the Councils lap, as they have the ability to overide the executive order at any time.
It is only invalid in your incorrect eyes - in universe, it is still present. Not my fault you don't understand STO canon.
sigh
When Sela took over the government it became a new type of government.. before that it was a elected government ruled by the senate. So its not a change in government leaders ship its a totally new government. It became a dictatorship. So yes a new treaty would have to be made.
US government any Treaty must be ratified by a 2/3rds majority of the senate. The president CAN NOT evoke a treaty with out the senate vote. There for with a new type of government taking control after the destruction of Romules it would invalidated the Treaty.
Your argument is like saying in 1979 when the Ayatollah Khomeini took over Iran that our treaties with the Pahlavi dynasty would still be valid with the change in government types. In fact they were not valid at all after the change in government type.
The same happened with Romulan government.. it was taken over by a new government type and that would require new treaty's.
As far the US treaties and executive powers.
The President... shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur....
Article II, Section 2, Clause 2
The president can not use executive powers to make a treaty it must come from a 2/3rd majority of the senate.
He can though use a executive order to stop research such as what Bush did with the stem cell research and in STO what Okeg did.
As far the KDF/FED if I remember right it was a defense pact and so the Feds didn't violate anything when condemning the attack on the Gorn. The KDF view point was that the Undine were a threat to them there for they were going to attack the Gorn. Granted I do not remember everything that the accords were to cover but I think I'm remembering that part right.
If the KDF was invaded by a hostile force the feds would of defended them but because the KDF was doing a preemptive strike and attacking it was not considered part of the defense pact. so the FEDs would not assit the KDF.
The Avenger does not come with a cloak. It can fit the one coming with the Defiant or G-X, but it doesn't come with one of it's own. Plskthxbye
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the only strike is the phase cloak.. that's it and it was new tech in experiential phase. Your other points just are wrong and can effect any ship taking damage or sabotage. As far as upholding a "treaty" upholding the treaty does not mean its a valid treaty all it means is that you still follow its rules by choice. You are free to violate it any time because its no longer binding. for Okeg to force Star fleet not to research it he had to make a executive order other wise they could of / would of legally been able to. if the treaty was still binding that order would never been needed.
Ok
Which is it?
The Federation agrees to be bound by the Treaty, the RSE in all 3 forms agrees to the Treaty. Thus, in universe, it is valid. As I pointed out earlier, it has been two terms in office since the order by Aennik Okeg - if someone wanted to put it to the test in the numerous Federation courts of Law, they would have done - This is the Federation, where a sentient hologram who tried to take over the Enterprise is deemed by some to be imprisoned without trial, challenging the Treaty on the grounds you want is 99% certain to have been done.
Now, if Cryptic decides to revise the lore to allow Fed-Cloaks (numerous ways of doing it) then we can cross that bridge when we come to it. But until then, no Fed-cloaks. Or just use Mask Energy Signature, or roll a Rom or KDF.
It has nothing to do with whether the Romulan Star Empire still exists as a polity.
That is nothing more than a red herring.
In response to the fallout from the collapse of the Khitomer Accords, and increased open hostilities with the Klingon Empire, the Federation began deploying cloaking starships geared toward warfare.
After the Accords fell through, dissolving the alliance, in 2399:
-The Gallant Class
-The Galaxy-X Class
-The Sao Paulo Class
-The Venture-X Class
New classes that came out of the shipyards with cloaking technology equipped and operational.
The Defiant and (I'm assuming) Vigilant Classes, two older types, are coming out of the yards with cloaking technology equipped and operational. Have been since the Khitomer Accords went kaput and formal hostilities began.
The Avenger Class, which came online in 2409, was capable of being easily fitted with cloaking technology.
When the President made his public statement after the Kelso incident in 2395, the UFP and Klingon Empire were not formally at war. Thus, his commitment to the Treaty of Algeron was a good political and diplomatic move.
A lot changed in four years.
And I can assure you, I DO know my game canon.
The fact of the matter, based on information from BOTH the ship write ups and Path to 2409, is that the Federation no longer honors the Treaty as of 2399, when war with the Empire was evident. Starfleet has been deploying ship classes utilizing cloak technology, in a fully operational manner.
It was the war with the Klingon Empire, and dissolution of the Khitomer Accords, that prompted this move. The status of the Romulan Star Empire has nothing to do with it.
How is whole treaty thing still a debate? It states clearly in-game that the Federation is developing and implementing cloaks.
Now, from a game balance point of view, I personally don't think Feds need new types of cloaks (and I fly a FTER almost exclusively, for what it's worth). I just think the regular cloaks we already have should become integrated systems cost-free on current cloaking ships, to balance out the cost-free integrated cloaks in KDF and Romulan ships.
How is it cost-free? I'm not against the few Fed ships that can cloak atm getting their basic cloaks integrated. But to say that Romulans and KDF get theirs cost-free...ain't quite so true.
and that's all we are asking with a new zen ship having the phase cloak and be like Pegasus.
When you compare Romulan ships to Federation ships, they suffer no stat cost to carrying those cloaks. A lot of people like to point to their overall decreased power levels, but that's a cost for the singularity powers, not the battle cloak. There are still 5-Tac console Romulan ships, and nothing's stopping them from getting to 125 Weapons power for some of the most devastating alpha strikes in the game. They don't have to use up a console slot for that cloak.
Same with the KDF ships. Cryptic seems to design the typical KDF ship with a "less Shields, more Hull" mindset, when comparing them to their closest FED equivalent. The cloak doesn't factor into their stat costs either, with the exception of the Raider (which uses a Battle Cloak and has all Universal Boff slots).
So given the cost-free integration of especially the Romulan cloaks, giving three ships (six including Fleet variants) a regular integrated cloak is not asking too much for the sake of balance. At this point in the game, and continuing into the future, Console slots are worth way more than Cloaks, and it's too hefty a price to pay for what you get.
This should be damning evidence that the Federation has reversed their earlier decision as voiced by the President, if not openly, at least in practice.
Heck, the President even mentions in the Path to 2409 that the Federation might not be legally obliged to honor the treaty, but decided to honor it to avoid war. Guess what, Sela's regime was at war with the Federation.
And paying a console slot for a cloak that can't be used in combat is a pretty steep tax in this age of fleet UR consoles and crafted UR consoles. (and again, Romulans pay nothing in exchange for their far superior battle-cloaking abilities)
So I really can't see any plausible in-universe reason why this it shouldn't be Ok for other fed ships to use the console, and I really don't buy that the console being available for other Fed ships would be unbalancing either.
And two of those ships featured cloaks in canon, and were only given cloaks because they had them in the show, one as a special exclusive only for Gamma Quadrant use and the other it was never covered why. Two more are C-Store improvements and come under the same heading.
The Avenger is just plain wrong, with no justification for cloaking other than money in.
Also, these are player ships, no Fed NPC of these ships uses a cloak - and it is NPC ships we should look at, as player ships are not even STO canon, let alone anything resembling important.
Another Fed/KDF war changes absolutely nothing, just like it changed nothing every other time Feds and Klingons decided to have a war. Which is often with the nature of Klingons.
Because money - people who want fed-cloaks will pay for it. That is the only reason, and the above is just a cop-out excuse, and doesn't change the STO canon about Fed-cloaks.
:rolleyes:
Bye the way, the Xindi Escort is now the best Escort in the game, it does everything 'escort' the Defiant does, better.
Fleet Qin: 36,300 Hull, 0.92 Shield Modifier, 200 Crew, 15 Turn Rate, 0.20 Impulse Modifier, 60 Inertia Rating
Fleet Somraw: 34,650 Hull, 0.92 Shield Modifier, 100 Crew, 16 Turn Rate, 0.20 Impulse Modifier, 70 Inertia Rating
Fleet Defiant: 33,000 Hull, 0.90 Shield Modifier, 50 Crew, 17 Turn Rate, 0.20 Impulse Modifier, 70 Inertia Rating
The difference in turn rate is present but not huge, and the Somraw has the same Inertia rating as the Defiant. They both also have higher Shield Modifier and Hull.
You can compare the console layout, but they all have the same number of consoles. Cryptic is well known for treating all consoles as equal despite this not being the case. The problem isn't the amount of stats for Raptors, but how they're laid out. They may not have the best layouts, but they're not necessarily weaker than the Defiant, and definitely don't lose anything for having an integrated Cloak.
This disparity is exactly why existing Fed ships should have their cloaks integrated. I don't even understand why you're only comparing Warbirds to Raptors in a conversation about Fed ships.
This is a mechanical problem with the game itself: crew has never worked properly. Cryptic originally intended for crew to actually be better the more you had, but never got it working the way it should.
And aside from crew, both ships are identical with the exception that the Mogh gets an integrated cloak.
Taken all together here, it sounds like you have a bigger gripe with the way Raptors are treated in game than actually allowing Feds to have integrated cloaks. Raptor stats may or may not be well thought out, but that's true of a lot of ships in the game (Galaxy-R comes immediately to mind), but that's just poor design on Cryptic's part.
Maybe instead of arguing against integrating cloaking for a small number of Fed ships, you should argue for better KDF Raptors. The existence of the Romulan faction, and history of cloaking with the KDF, have made it clear that cloaks aren't worth a console slot and Feds should not be forced to use one for them. It's really that simple.
Shouting down Defiant pilots isn't going to get you a better Raptor.
It sure does. You don't have to like it, but you're not the one in charge of STO canon -- Cryptic is.
Wow.. talk about head in sand...
You try to argue with me about cloaks and are proven wrong on multiple points from new romulan government to the fact that Sela declareing war voids the treaty any how.
Then shown a quote that as of now Federation is in fact in the STO game world researching Cloak. Validating that the Treaty is no more.
Then try to bring up the whole non-canon shouldn't get cloaks... hate to break it to you.. if that's the case KDF shouldn't get carriers, any gorn ships, there Bops should be 1 shot by main phaser array of galaxy class star ships... I mean hey after all that's canon.
Then use its the gimmick to make money argument... like that has any relevance at all.
After multiple people show why through the progression of lore and logic the Federation would use cloaks you still argue.
The fact is Federation will get cloaks.. even from there own research or as pointed out in enterprise that Federation will absorb the Klingon Empire any how.
The issue is its your own personal issue with it.. has nothing to do with game lore.
You bring up balance.. like some how game balance is locked in stone and can never be changed. It's a totally irrational argument. Given at a whim Cryptic can change the balance of anything in game.
Maybe you should stop putting you energy into arguing a lost cause. Instead discuses how to balance Fed/Rom/KDF cloak imbalance. Things like making all cloaks battle cloaks, increasing performance of KDF ships to compensate, or even making each factions cloak slightly different. such as Romulan having the fastest battle cloak, kdf n2d fastest and the feds the slowest and changing the time that a cloaking/decloaking ship is vulnerable. Or even change the damage coming out of cloak.. where KDF has the strongest decloaking attack but has less hull, romulans in the middle of feds having the weakest out of cloak buff. There are so many way you can balance and still have faction flavor.