so a mature level 60 with a full tree will completely dominate a fresh level 60
didnt we just go through this with rep passives?
I'll try to clear things up. What you are asking is if a level 60 player with a max specialization tree is going to be a lot more powerful compared to a fresh level 60 player, or if there will be little difference to address powercreep.
And you are referring to the official response from Cryptic on the trait revamp that they wanted to address powercreep (sorry I tried to find the post but can't remember where it was. It was months ago and I don't want to spend all of my time tracking it down) During the trait revamp Cryptic decided to limit us to 4 space, 4 ground, and 4 active rep traits at any given time, compared to being able to select a lot more traits in the old system. The reason given was to address powercreep. They didn't want there to be much difference between a player with maxed reputations and a fresh level 50 player who hasn't started in it yet.
This is not any different than a level 50 dominating a level 40. The more time you spend on your character, the better it gets.
You seem to have misunderstood what ursusmorologus was referring to. From what little info we have so far, the new specialization trees seem to be similar to the reputation system. And he/she was worried there would be severe powercreep, comparing a level 60 with a maxed tree to a fresh level 60 with nothing invested yet. Your post seems to contradict what Cryptic's stance on powercreep was and what they did to address the situation by saying those of us who have spent time and invested in the system should be able to dominate those who haven't yet. So he/she wasn't talking about the difference between a player 10 levels higher than another. He/she was referring to the endgame specialization system and comparing it to the end game reputation system.
But since your post seems to have misunderstood what the player you were responding to said, I can dismiss your contradiction as being an unintentional mistake.
With the issue of powercreep there are 2 sides of the argument:
Those who don't want to be dominated by players who have spent time and invested in the system so they can stay competitive while they work on the system themselves, or not if the don't want to invest in it at all.
And there are players who *do* want the powercreep. They feel they *should* be rewarded for their time, effort, and resources (EC, Dil, Zen, Etc.) and if others want to stay competitive they can invest in the system themselves. They feel they shouldn't be restricted because some players refuse to, or can't, invest in the system.
I can understand both sides of the powercreep argument. But I'm gonna have to side with those that want it. I have spent a lot of time and resources to get through the reputation system (on 11 characters, most of which aren't maxed in all reps yet), and I will spend time and resources (if needed) to invest in the new specialization system. I don't want to feel like all my efforts are for nothing. Really, what is the point in having 16+ space rep traits when I can only take 4 at any given time? I worked hard to earn all of those traits and it doesn't make much of a difference having any rep traits compared to not having any at all with the limitations put in place to address powercreep.
I feel that powercreep will be prevented (or severely reduced) with the new specialization tree and you want it to take us "a while to get there" so you can come up with "new stuff for the system before players max it out". We should be properly rewarded for our efforts. If others want to stay competitive they can work on maxing their rep and specialization tree as far as I'm concerned.
Possibly because they already had this system in mind and they did not want to run this new system in parallel to the multiple traits / reps system .
But I'll grant you that until we get more info it sounds a bit odd .
Could be. That might be it.
And I feel the need to clarify my statements a little further (because sometimes I think people see more bite in what I write than I ever intended).
This isn't me trying to call someone on the dev team out. Or do a "gotcha" style thing.
I'm genuinely confused. In fact if anyone fell for a gotcha it was me. I totally fell in with Hawk's reasoning for the trait revamp.
And now I'm confused about this spec tree information.
I could be way off here. They could be apples and oranges. I don't know. That's why I'm asking. If they are apples and oranges, could someone please explain that? A little more detail about how this is going to be different than the trait revamp? Because I really don't understand.
And you are referring to the official response from Cryptic on the trait revamp that they wanted to address powercreep (sorry I tried to find the post but can't remember where it was. It was months ago and I don't want to spend all of my time tracking it down) During the trait revamp Cryptic decided to limit us to 4 space, 4 ground, and 4 active rep traits at any given time, compared to being able to select a lot more traits in the old system. The reason given was to address powercreep. They didn't want there to be much difference between a player with maxed reputations and a fresh level 50 player who hasn't started in it yet.
Correct?
They put it in a devblog instead of a thread, but there are summary posts in the linked thread
It's just not infinitely scalable. As I pointed out in the blog, if we had 100 reps in the current live setup, the difference in performance between a fresh 50 and a "complete" 50 would be so immense they wouldn't fit in the same proverbial room.
From the information that has been given so far, they appear to be repeating that same design
I can understand both sides of the powercreep argument. But I'm gonna have to side with those that want it. I have spent a lot of time and resources to get through the reputation system (on 11 characters, most of which aren't maxed in all reps yet), and I will spend time and resources (if needed) to invest in the new specialization system. I don't want to feel like all my efforts are for nothing. Really, what is the point in having 16+ space rep traits when I can only take 4 at any given time?
Its part of being in a multiplayer game. You build your character, new things come out and you make adjustments, meanwhile you are at a relatively stable power level with the rest of your peers. When power levels are too wide, maps are either too hard or too easy for a large number of your peers. That is what we saw with the rep passives, people with all the passives were snoozing through content while fresh level 50s were struggling.
So if I read the link right, 0-50 gets skill points to spend in the base skill tree where as 50+ gets skill points to spend only in the new skill tree? I don't like this. I'd rather just get points to spend in the old tree and for go the 50+ tree should I choose.
I agree. This game has many skills that require tons of skill points. I really don't see the need to switch to a different advancement system until you go past level 70. Beyond 70, you'd start getting too much overlap.
If they wanted to include a totally different system, I would be okay with it IN ADDITION TO standard skill points, but not in place of it. I was already making plans on where I'd put those much-needed skill points...and then I found out we're not getting any. As a player and paying customer, this is NOT what I want out of this level cap increase.
After the rep system nerf, one of my friends and fleetmates quit playing STO. Then my second-in-command goes MIA. Kinda hard to run a fleet when your fleet members lose the incentive to play with each "improvement." If the level-cap increase is implemented without those extra skill points for the existing skill tree, even I would lose interest in playing...and I'm the fleet owner!
Cryptic, if you're reading this, please include skill points for the existing skill tree with the Delta Rising expansion.
For a while now I have been watching and listening to this, now I want to add my thoughts.
this spec tree that is coming out seems to me to be a version of the one from Neverwinter.
There you have your normal powers ie Skill tree.
Then you get the feats and paragon powers, ie the new spec tree here.
Once you start you get one point per level, for powers and one point for the feats/paragon.
When you hit level cap you have one Specialization complete, and are working on a second, you continue to earn the "xp" points and when you get enough to level up even though you don't level up you get another point for the powers/feats/paragon
Based on the similarities from what I have read here, and experienced there. The paragon/feats will be split between active abilities and traits. Probably similar to the rep revamp we got.
That's my take on this thing. But I am still gonna wait and see.
Its part of being in a multiplayer game. You build your character, new things come out and you make adjustments, meanwhile you are at a relatively stable power level with the rest of your peers. When power levels are too wide, maps are either too hard or too easy for a large number of your peers. That is what we saw with the rep passives, people with all the passives were snoozing through content while fresh level 50s were struggling.
I think the problem isn't in power creep or that a fresh 50 (or 60 in this case) should be able to play at the same level as a veteran player who has achieved more kudos. The real issue is differentiating Elite play content from regular play. Elite play should be at a level that even those with best builds may fail at. I know people will complain but its elite and shouldn't be a whitewash snooze mission. It's really no different than when a level 30 player enters a mission with a level 39 player.
I think people's work needs to be respected and someone who as a noob at any level shouldn't expect to play as the same as a veteran at that level. Content difficulty for both ends of the spectrum is the real issue.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
All i have to say is 90% of all feed back will be ignored as with the last 4 seasons ive tested bugs will be pushed to holodeck because they have a dead line.
From the information that has been given so far, they appear to be repeating that same design
In broad terms, yes, but until we can see just what we are unlocking I'd hesitate to draw a parallel. We may find that maxing out a specialization tree only has marginal benefits compared to simply progressing through it to get to 60 (which would be a depature from the comparison of a fresh 50 and a fully spec'ed 50 under the old, unlimited rep system).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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As usual, PWE has messed the game up again. Captain traits instead? Really? Captains traits are useless when there a lot of players who would like to max out their skills in the tree. I'm not impressed with this whole l60 thing.
possibilitiesare a thing of hope,sometimes it drives us toward something better
Important question, will the rank rewards be the same regardless of Gold or Silver membership? If T6 ships are going to be one of the prizes for rank, would those only be for Gold members?
Important question, will the rank rewards be the same regardless of Gold or Silver membership? If T6 ships are going to be one of the prizes for rank, would those only be for Gold members?
Thanks
From what I'm understand, there are no rank rewards per say outside of the basic hp/skill/trait increase you normally get regardless of silver/gold status.
From what I'm understanding EVERYONE must either upgrade a ship to t-5u or buy a new T-6 ship if they want to get the benefits of the new levels. There are no free ships to golds that I understand, outside of the fact that the ship reward is free to upgrade to 5u
Comments
I'll try to clear things up. What you are asking is if a level 60 player with a max specialization tree is going to be a lot more powerful compared to a fresh level 60 player, or if there will be little difference to address powercreep.
And you are referring to the official response from Cryptic on the trait revamp that they wanted to address powercreep (sorry I tried to find the post but can't remember where it was. It was months ago and I don't want to spend all of my time tracking it down) During the trait revamp Cryptic decided to limit us to 4 space, 4 ground, and 4 active rep traits at any given time, compared to being able to select a lot more traits in the old system. The reason given was to address powercreep. They didn't want there to be much difference between a player with maxed reputations and a fresh level 50 player who hasn't started in it yet.
Correct?
You seem to have misunderstood what ursusmorologus was referring to. From what little info we have so far, the new specialization trees seem to be similar to the reputation system. And he/she was worried there would be severe powercreep, comparing a level 60 with a maxed tree to a fresh level 60 with nothing invested yet. Your post seems to contradict what Cryptic's stance on powercreep was and what they did to address the situation by saying those of us who have spent time and invested in the system should be able to dominate those who haven't yet. So he/she wasn't talking about the difference between a player 10 levels higher than another. He/she was referring to the endgame specialization system and comparing it to the end game reputation system.
But since your post seems to have misunderstood what the player you were responding to said, I can dismiss your contradiction as being an unintentional mistake.
With the issue of powercreep there are 2 sides of the argument:
Those who don't want to be dominated by players who have spent time and invested in the system so they can stay competitive while they work on the system themselves, or not if the don't want to invest in it at all.
And there are players who *do* want the powercreep. They feel they *should* be rewarded for their time, effort, and resources (EC, Dil, Zen, Etc.) and if others want to stay competitive they can invest in the system themselves. They feel they shouldn't be restricted because some players refuse to, or can't, invest in the system.
I can understand both sides of the powercreep argument. But I'm gonna have to side with those that want it. I have spent a lot of time and resources to get through the reputation system (on 11 characters, most of which aren't maxed in all reps yet), and I will spend time and resources (if needed) to invest in the new specialization system. I don't want to feel like all my efforts are for nothing. Really, what is the point in having 16+ space rep traits when I can only take 4 at any given time? I worked hard to earn all of those traits and it doesn't make much of a difference having any rep traits compared to not having any at all with the limitations put in place to address powercreep.
I feel that powercreep will be prevented (or severely reduced) with the new specialization tree and you want it to take us "a while to get there" so you can come up with "new stuff for the system before players max it out". We should be properly rewarded for our efforts. If others want to stay competitive they can work on maxing their rep and specialization tree as far as I'm concerned.
Could be. That might be it.
And I feel the need to clarify my statements a little further (because sometimes I think people see more bite in what I write than I ever intended).
This isn't me trying to call someone on the dev team out. Or do a "gotcha" style thing.
I'm genuinely confused. In fact if anyone fell for a gotcha it was me. I totally fell in with Hawk's reasoning for the trait revamp.
And now I'm confused about this spec tree information.
I could be way off here. They could be apples and oranges. I don't know. That's why I'm asking. If they are apples and oranges, could someone please explain that? A little more detail about how this is going to be different than the trait revamp? Because I really don't understand.
They put it in a devblog instead of a thread, but there are summary posts in the linked thread
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/3039033
From the information that has been given so far, they appear to be repeating that same design
Its part of being in a multiplayer game. You build your character, new things come out and you make adjustments, meanwhile you are at a relatively stable power level with the rest of your peers. When power levels are too wide, maps are either too hard or too easy for a large number of your peers. That is what we saw with the rep passives, people with all the passives were snoozing through content while fresh level 50s were struggling.
I agree. This game has many skills that require tons of skill points. I really don't see the need to switch to a different advancement system until you go past level 70. Beyond 70, you'd start getting too much overlap.
If they wanted to include a totally different system, I would be okay with it IN ADDITION TO standard skill points, but not in place of it. I was already making plans on where I'd put those much-needed skill points...and then I found out we're not getting any. As a player and paying customer, this is NOT what I want out of this level cap increase.
After the rep system nerf, one of my friends and fleetmates quit playing STO. Then my second-in-command goes MIA. Kinda hard to run a fleet when your fleet members lose the incentive to play with each "improvement." If the level-cap increase is implemented without those extra skill points for the existing skill tree, even I would lose interest in playing...and I'm the fleet owner!
Cryptic, if you're reading this, please include skill points for the existing skill tree with the Delta Rising expansion.
this spec tree that is coming out seems to me to be a version of the one from Neverwinter.
There you have your normal powers ie Skill tree.
Then you get the feats and paragon powers, ie the new spec tree here.
Once you start you get one point per level, for powers and one point for the feats/paragon.
When you hit level cap you have one Specialization complete, and are working on a second, you continue to earn the "xp" points and when you get enough to level up even though you don't level up you get another point for the powers/feats/paragon
Based on the similarities from what I have read here, and experienced there. The paragon/feats will be split between active abilities and traits. Probably similar to the rep revamp we got.
That's my take on this thing. But I am still gonna wait and see.
Fleet leader Nova Elite
Fleet Leader House of Nova elite
@ren_larreck
I think the problem isn't in power creep or that a fresh 50 (or 60 in this case) should be able to play at the same level as a veteran player who has achieved more kudos. The real issue is differentiating Elite play content from regular play. Elite play should be at a level that even those with best builds may fail at. I know people will complain but its elite and shouldn't be a whitewash snooze mission. It's really no different than when a level 30 player enters a mission with a level 39 player.
I think people's work needs to be respected and someone who as a noob at any level shouldn't expect to play as the same as a veteran at that level. Content difficulty for both ends of the spectrum is the real issue.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
In broad terms, yes, but until we can see just what we are unlocking I'd hesitate to draw a parallel. We may find that maxing out a specialization tree only has marginal benefits compared to simply progressing through it to get to 60 (which would be a depature from the comparison of a fresh 50 and a fully spec'ed 50 under the old, unlimited rep system).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You know, I was just thinking this myself, But I tried to dismiss it as me not fully understanding the situation.
So does this mean that after enough of us rank up, we can expect some sort of nerf, cough, cough, I mean balance pass ?
I guess we're gonna have to hear MORE details on this too.
I hope there is a pets/carrier/Dreadnaught Cruiser/FDC/Escort Carrier/Vesta/Seperation Specialization Tree.
Thanks
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From what I'm understand, there are no rank rewards per say outside of the basic hp/skill/trait increase you normally get regardless of silver/gold status.
From what I'm understanding EVERYONE must either upgrade a ship to t-5u or buy a new T-6 ship if they want to get the benefits of the new levels. There are no free ships to golds that I understand, outside of the fact that the ship reward is free to upgrade to 5u