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New T6 Ships will be a separate class

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  • edited August 2014
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    I didn't see the T5 console giveaway 0 tie in. This is getting speculative now but I could definitely see them pulling off something like this.

    The Xindi Box has the following...

    T1 Oberth: Enhanced Plasma Manifold
    T4 Draguas: Aceton Assimilator
    T5 Dhelan Retrofit: Sabotage Probe

    edit: Not only did they cross the line on T5 consoles, heh - they did it with a Warbird console.

    KDF can get EPM or Sabotage.
    Fed can get AA or Sabotage.
    Rom can get EPM or AA.
  • crm14916crm14916 Member Posts: 1,535 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Something not mentioned in the thread yet (as far as I could see)...

    How are the vet rewards going to fit with this new T6 ship idea? Veterans and lifers got a T5+ starship, one per faction... are the Vet/LTS people going to receive an upgrade? Either to their current ship or a token to buy a new T6?

    CM
    "Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited August 2014
    crm14916 wrote: »
    Something not mentioned in the thread yet (as far as I could see)...

    How are the vet rewards going to fit with this new T6 ship idea? Veterans and lifers got a T5+ starship, one per faction... are the Vet/LTS people going to receive an upgrade? Either to their current ship or a token to buy a new T6?

    CM

    The less said ... the more likely people will continue to buy stuff including LTS. I would be shocked if you get a free T5+ ship per toon ... although for $200-300 ... you definitely should!
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    But here's the thing, and I hope this doesn't go too far outside the topic of the thread.

    Consider the following:

    How many of the T1-T4 ships are bought solely for their consoles vs. by people who are going to fly them for 2-3 hours?

    Those are new players. Those ships were designed for new players. The new player experience has been a major point of Cryptic's latest development ventures. But more importantly is the fact there are fleet versions of most T1-T4 ships. The ability to use those additional skins with those T5.5 ships is one of the bonuses of purchasing one of those "+1" ships in earlier levels.
    What was in the last Lock Box for the console exchange? A T5 console...where T5 consoles were previously locked to the T5 vessel and any earlier/later variants.

    I do think that is a valid criticism. It opens up a precedent we did not see before.
    So is it simply a case that the T5 ships are being lumped in with the T1-T4 ships so the question will be asked...

    How many of the T1-T5 ships are bought solely for their consoles...? No doubt it will be more than a few hours to get from 50 to 60...but in the end, not everybody's flying something beyond a RA T5 boat...so folks could technically do the 50 - 60 in one, eh?

    I think that could be seen as a concern, but I'm also willing to bet that all of these developer hours spent on the latest ships at Vice Admiral/Rear Admiral are simply too costly to make obsolete.

    I really do. We're talking not only every Lockbox ship, we're talking Fleet ships, C-store ships, Anniversary ships. These are all items that not only do players treasure and covet, but you're talking hundreds if not thousands of developer labor hours spent on these T5 ships.

    Whereas the +1 ships from earlier teirs are only a small fraction of 'new' ships they came out with... and even they are playable at end game with the fleet versions (again, with some exceptions).

    You just don't throw away that kind of hard work and effort on that many ships -- ships which make up a large majority of your sales (we see more ships sold than costumes). To just make them all obsolete in 2 months is ludicrous.

    It's insulting to the developers who worked on them just as much as the players who own them and want to own them. I mean if I was Quack and I found out all of these ships I was working on will just end up being discarded in favor of new T6 ships -- I'd actually feel pretty insulted, as if all of my previous work was simply irrelevant in favor of 'the new hotness'.

    And I'm sure plenty of employees at Cryptic do feel that way. To see 4 years of ships simply cast aside for T6 ships.

    Which is partially why I think that isn't going to be the reality.
    Odds are that the Lock Box/Lobi ships will be bumped up to "T6" level so they can continue that revenue stream down the road...it's lucrative for them, they're not going to kill that.

    They already bumped them up once already in their infancy (when there weren't a lot of them out to begin with), to make them Fleet-quality. If so, that would take an awful lot of work for that many lockbox and anniversary ships we have.
    The Fleet Vessels and the 10 console ZEN boats might end up being the "competitive"/"useful" boats that aren't quite T6...or some such, eh?

    But there's all sorts of groundwork being laid for the T5 boats to be little more than T4 boats in the new scheme of things...

    I don't see it that way. I could be wrong, of course. But the amount of time and labor spent on the current end-game ships are just too valuable to discard in terms of T6 ships.

    I think at a glance, T6 ships will appear more powerful. But just like with the Scimitar... I think it'll be an illusion of power.

    Which is how you address power creep. By offering variations of power so that it's impossible to tell what is actually more powerful than another.

    I think T6 ships will have abilities that will be powerful in their own right -- but those abilities will simply not be able to be compared to current T5/T5.5 ship abilities.

    I think a good player in a T6 ship will be able to melt face, sure. But I think a good player in a T5.5 ship will do equally as well, even if they have different methods of doing so.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I think that could be seen as a concern, but I'm also willing to bet that all of these developer hours spent on the latest ships at Vice Admiral/Rear Admiral are simply too costly to make obsolete.

    Didn't we have the recent podcast where Geko talked about why certain ships weren't done yet...because they didn't want to do double the work?

    edit: Didn't mean to snip like that, just I'm going to bow out of the conversation. The more I look at it, the more I just want to uninstall the game. I'll just go back to doing my Star Trek meets Farmville thing with DOFFing/R&D/Starbase etc projects...and if the blogs come out and they tick me off enough, then I'll uninstall and walk away. If they're just mediocre, well I've developed a tolerance over the years so I'll probably keep muddling along. If it's something cool, I'll toss Cryptic the attaboys. As it stands right now, I've already taken more Excedrin and Tums than you're supposed to take...
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Didn't we have the recent podcast where Geko talked about why certain ships weren't done yet...because they didn't want to do double the work?

    I don't know, if there wasn't a transcript I'm in the dark on it. :rolleyes:
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited August 2014
    Didn't we have the recent podcast where Geko talked about why certain ships weren't done yet...because they didn't want to do double the work?

    edit: Didn't mean to snip like that, just I'm going to bow out of the conversation. The more I look at it, the more I just want to uninstall the game. I'll just go back to doing my Star Trek meets Farmville thing with DOFFing/R&D/Starbase etc projects...and if the blogs come out and they tick me off enough, then I'll uninstall and walk away. If they're just mediocre, well I've developed a tolerance over the years so I'll probably keep muddling along. If it's something cool, I'll toss Cryptic the attaboys. As it stands right now, I've already taken more Excedrin and Tums than you're supposed to take...

    I think this is the most mature attitude to take. That said, betting on Cryptic doing the "right" thing ... notice I said right not smart ... is a losing bet. I am sure they have run the numbers on this and I believe the math works out.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited August 2014
    The window of opportunity for selling ships has been growing shorter and shorter with time. Look at something like the Wells and Bug ships. Those ships are relatively old but are canon, look awesome and are still among the top performers. They still sell very well (though relatively small numbers) and are in demand on exchange too. Compare with Hirogen box and lackluster Undine box. Notice that the duration of lock box has been getting shorter and shorter. It looks like a revolving door of lock box ships with 3 sets of them in just 6-7 months.

    Same goes for c-store. Vesta / Scimitar probably continue to have decent residual sales but Avenger and even Tempest have fallen off dramatically. I think this is their big problem and is driving this decision to introduce Tier 6 replacement.

    Maybe I am wrong ... but every time I bet on Cryptic's greed over the past year or so ... I have not been disappointed.

    iconians wrote: »
    Those are new players. Those ships were designed for new players. The new player experience has been a major point of Cryptic's latest development ventures. But more importantly is the fact there are fleet versions of most T1-T4 ships. The ability to use those additional skins with those T5.5 ships is one of the bonuses of purchasing one of those "+1" ships in earlier levels.



    I do think that is a valid criticism. It opens up a precedent we did not see before.



    I think that could be seen as a concern, but I'm also willing to bet that all of these developer hours spent on the latest ships at Vice Admiral/Rear Admiral are simply too costly to make obsolete.

    I really do. We're talking not only every Lockbox ship, we're talking Fleet ships, C-store ships, Anniversary ships. These are all items that not only do players treasure and covet, but you're talking hundreds if not thousands of developer labor hours spent on these T5 ships.

    Whereas the +1 ships from earlier teirs are only a small fraction of 'new' ships they came out with... and even they are playable at end game with the fleet versions (again, with some exceptions).

    You just don't throw away that kind of hard work and effort on that many ships -- ships which make up a large majority of your sales (we see more ships sold than costumes). To just make them all obsolete in 2 months is ludicrous.

    It's insulting to the developers who worked on them just as much as the players who own them and want to own them. I mean if I was Quack and I found out all of these ships I was working on will just end up being discarded in favor of new T6 ships -- I'd actually feel pretty insulted, as if all of my previous work was simply irrelevant in favor of 'the new hotness'.

    And I'm sure plenty of employees at Cryptic do feel that way. To see 4 years of ships simply cast aside for T6 ships.

    Which is partially why I think that isn't going to be the reality.



    They already bumped them up once already in their infancy (when there weren't a lot of them out to begin with), to make them Fleet-quality. If so, that would take an awful lot of work for that many lockbox and anniversary ships we have.



    I don't see it that way. I could be wrong, of course. But the amount of time and labor spent on the current end-game ships are just too valuable to discard in terms of T6 ships.

    I think at a glance, T6 ships will appear more powerful. But just like with the Scimitar... I think it'll be an illusion of power.

    Which is how you address power creep. By offering variations of power so that it's impossible to tell what is actually more powerful than another.

    I think T6 ships will have abilities that will be powerful in their own right -- but those abilities will simply not be able to be compared to current T5/T5.5 ship abilities.

    I think a good player in a T6 ship will be able to melt face, sure. But I think a good player in a T5.5 ship will do equally as well, even if they have different methods of doing so.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    I think this is the most mature attitude to take. That said, betting on Cryptic doing the "right" thing ... notice I said right not smart ... is a losing bet. I am sure they have run the numbers on this and I believe the math works out.

    I can say that if they end up completely making the current Fleet-quality ships obsolete (which includes Lockbox ships), with the only viable to be a paywalled T6 ship?

    You would see me jump in line with everyone else to uninstall the game and never look back. Because that is the kind of grave insult that even I wouldn't tolerate, nor expect anyone else to.

    My criticisms regarding the 'retiring' of the Fleet Patrol Escort would be light in comparison to the scathing fire and brimstone I'd unleash on the forums if all T5 and T5.5 ships became obsolete come October, with only T6 ships as a viable option for gameplay content.

    And that is something you can quote me on and hold me to.

    But I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think they would shoot themselves in the foot financially 3 months in advance.

    Whenever Cryptic has shot themselves in the foot it has always been a last minute decision. To do that in August when the projected release is October is uncharacteristic of them.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    macronius wrote: »
    The window of opportunity for selling ships has been growing shorter and shorter with time. Look at something like the Wells and Bug ships. Those ships are relatively old but are canon, look awesome and are still among the top performers. They still sell very well (though relatively small numbers) and are in demand on exchange too. Compare with Hirogen box and lackluster Undine box. Notice that the duration of lock box has been getting shorter and shorter. It looks like a revolving door of lock box ships with 3 sets of them in just 6-7 months.

    Same goes for c-store. Vesta / Scimitar probably continue to have decent residual sales but Avenger and even Tempest have fallen off dramatically. I think this is their big problem and is driving this decision to introduce Tier 6 replacement.

    Maybe I am wrong ... but every time I bet on Cryptic's greed over the past year or so ... I have not been disappointed.

    I believe you are correct. I have noticed the same pattern as well.
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited August 2014
    Given Cryptics history of poor communication, this is par for the course. I still have faith though.

    They could have easily said "I AM GROOT" while flashing pictures on a big screen. The end result would still be an agitated forum.

    We are talking a 60 day wait to do a slow reveal. I can wait.
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited August 2014
    Given Cryptics history of poor communication, this is par for the course. I still have faith though.

    They could have easily said "I AM GROOT" while flashing pictures on a big screen. The end result would still be an agitated forum.

    We are talking a 60 day wait to do a slow reveal. I can wait.

    If they hired Vin Diesel to do the voice over ... then yes ... Dooooooooooooom!
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Given Cryptics history of poor communication, this is par for the course. I still have faith though.

    They could have easily said "I AM GROOT" while flashing pictures on a big screen. The end result would still be an agitated forum.

    We are talking a 60 day wait to do a slow reveal. I can wait.

    I was hoping Cryptic would make me regret uninstalling....
  • binebanebinebane Member Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    so secondary deflectors only for t6 science?
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If the canon ships can't truly become tier 6 this game is finished.
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I'll give you my source when you give me your source for 'most of the playerbase'

    Ask Geko... Thats his personal opinion, and isn't shy to share it on Twitter.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • ussinterceptussintercept Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    anazonda wrote: »
    Ask Geko... Thats his personal opinion, and isn't shy to share it on Twitter.

    Why would I care what his personal opinion is?
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Given Cryptics history of poor communication, this is par for the course. I still have faith though.

    They could have easily said "I AM GROOT" while flashing pictures on a big screen. The end result would still be an agitated forum.

    We are talking a 60 day wait to do a slow reveal. I can wait.

    More like, "I AM LOOT!" :rolleyes:
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    cidstorm wrote: »
    If the canon ships can't truly become tier 6 this game is finished.

    True, those ships are one if not THE most important factor people start playing STO.
    (after a while they realize they where misguided, but that's another topic IMO)

    Cryptics new Generation of shipdesign must be more than awesome to outrank (visual) the beloved canon ships. If not, people will become even more frustrated and unhappy with the game. Power Creep alone won't work forever IMO.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • dirlettiadirlettia Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Considering Cryptics history of how upgrades are done I am not holding out much hope here that it will be attainable. It is rather akin to the Neverwinter model of upgrading horses or Companions and that takes millions of AD (Dilithium).

    At this point I am really starting to wonder if STO's monetisation has gone too far to deter me buying more into it.

    Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
  • ussinterceptussintercept Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    yreodred wrote: »
    True, those ships are one if not THE most important factor people start playing STO.
    (after a while they realize they where misguided, but that's another topic IMO)

    Cryptics new Generation of shipdesign must be more than awesome to outrank (visual) the beloved canon ships. If not, people will become even more frustrated and unhappy with the game. Power Creep alone won't work forever IMO.

    Agreed. I currently play a Sao Paulo, and while its not a Defiant it is inspired by it. If Im unable to use a T6 Sao Paulo. I probably will have a hard time getting over that hump. Especially since I doubt that any 'upgrade' will actually allow my T5.5 Sao Paulo to be competitive in any meaningful way.
  • jagdhippiesjagdhippies Member Posts: 676 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Regardless of how the T5 to T6 thing goes down, I will not want to have to pay money to upgrade my T5 ships that I paid money for to almost T6 (remember that T6 is getting powers that upgrades don't). A system that requires an item like a FSM (sellable on the exchange) to upgrade T5 to T5.7 also doesn't appeal to me. I would prefer a token system where once I reach level 60 I am allowed to simply go to the ship yard and click upgrade on all of my ships.

    Needing an item to upgrade my end game zen ships is really the only thing that I am opposed to.

    Now I am curious what they will do with the mirror ships.

    We will see when we see.
    My carrier is more powerful than your gal-dread
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I'm guessing they're gonna introduce a "retrofit" system to bring weaker ship in line with stronger ones. Just a guess though.
  • schneemann83schneemann83 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    By now I think the "upgrades" are fleet variants for the remaining t5 ships without one yet. After all the alternative (upgrading the upgrade of a retrofit upgrade?) is even for cryptics standards a silly thought.
  • grayfoxjamesgrayfoxjames Member Posts: 1,516 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    They better create a new T6 Odyssey with its own awesome bridge like the current one has. It is after all the flagship of the Federation and that can't get left behind! It never was in the shows!
    Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox
    Fleet Leader of:
    Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
    Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
    Liberty Guardians
    U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class

    Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
    Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
    Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
    Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
    Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
    Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    They better create a new T6 Odyssey with its own awesome bridge like the current one has. It is after all the flagship of the Federation and that can't get left behind! It never was in the shows!
    It was in the movies though. But only once.

    Enterprise-A < Excelsior

    Though what was the -B? An Excelsior refit. Hell, maybe one of these tier-6s will be the Enterprise-G.
  • sf911sf911 Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    maybe one of these tier-6s will be the Enterprise-G.

    1 year after the Launch of the Enterprise F? :rolleyes:

    I'm fairly confident a Tier 6 Odyssey will be offered. It is the flagship of the Federation in 2409 after all...
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sf911 wrote: »
    1 year after the Launch of the Enterprise F? :rolleyes:
    Nah. Tier 6 ships should last decades in-continuity.

    Just from the Enterprise-to-tier pattern, the Universe class Enterprise-J should be tier 8. 1-ENT&TOS, 2-A, 3-B&C, 4-D, 5-E&F, 6-G, 7-H&I, 8-J
  • grayfoxjamesgrayfoxjames Member Posts: 1,516 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sf911 wrote: »
    1 year after the Launch of the Enterprise F? :rolleyes:

    I'm fairly confident a Tier 6 Odyssey will be offered. It is the flagship of the Federation in 2409 after all...

    Honestly they better...the Odyssey was a ship made into the Enterprise and CBS had a hand in this, no reason why it shouldn't :D

    I honestly just don't want to fly anything else.
    Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox
    Fleet Leader of:
    Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
    Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
    Liberty Guardians
    U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class

    Game Handle: Grayfox@GrayfoxJames
    Website: https://www.libertytaskforce.com
    Armada (STOFA Member Fleet): https://www.libertytaskforce.com/stofa
    Discord: https://discord.gg/bGp9N7z
    Twitter: STOFA@LTFGrayfox
    Email: CSDynamix@Hotmail.com
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