Research some threads on this forum within the past few days. The Math has already been done on the matter; at least 335 days to level 20.
But it's bad math...
2,070,000 / 6000 = 345
2,070,000 / 7000 = 296
The time to get to L20 running just the 20 hour Research projects will be somewhere between 296 and...it will never take 345 days. Cause it doesn't take long for you to get 7k consistently, so the 345 day simply doesn't exist.
It will take at least 296 days...not that it will take at least 335 days.
Hell, I just turned in three...a L6, and 2x L4...got two 7k and one 6k for the results.
Odds of it being below 300 though...isn't that great. Odds of it being over 335 days isn't that great either.
Seems to be somewhat silly to be quibbling over a month there, when going from L19 to L20 will take ~47 days...while providing +10 skill and a title.
Wish I could remember if it was a podcast or a post where Cryptic talked about the folks they expected to go beyond L15...
But this is SUPER scary for someone that does not log in every day - image a "casual" player who manages to log in 3x per week - so that would take a couple years!! That is super scary.
So a casual player take a year to get to LvL 15 - then can spend a lot of money/time for to gamble on getting a piece of gear that might be useful.
This whole system for the games causal players is like looking up a huge mountain - and when you get to the top - if you get to the top - you can then work hard for something that might be useful or not.
Then you might have those people say "well you can sell the stuff for EC" Lololololo - in 1-2 years most of the stuff will at the high end will be vendor trash - or may have been surpassed by Rep/Fleet/lock-box gear.
I know you agree what a fail this system is.
As I finish typing this I am even asking myself why I did - I really don't care that much any more. MEH
:P
The time to get to L20 running just the 20 hour Research projects will be somewhere between 296 and...it will never take 345 days. Cause it doesn't take long for you to get 7k consistently, so the 345 day simply doesn't exist.
It will take at least 296 days...not that it will take at least 335 days.
Hell, I just turned in three...a L6, and 2x L4...got two 7k and one 6k for the results.
Odds of it being below 300 though...isn't that great. Odds of it being over 335 days isn't that great either.
Seems to be somewhat silly to be quibbling over a month there, when going from L19 to L20 will take ~47 days...while providing +10 skill and a title.
Wish I could remember if it was a podcast or a post where Cryptic talked about the folks they expected to go beyond L15...
Nope, it's not bad math. You are just making bad assumptions. You are assuming people are going to be hitting 7,000 XP constantly. That is just not logical. You are also assuming people are going to be willing to sink money/dilithium to get these mat, or would be willing to re-grind the same content that have already done ad nauseum.
Not everyone has infinite time/money to sink into a game. Reasonable time investment is all people want. The current system is not reasonable.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Nope, it's not bad math. You are just making bad assumptions. You are assuming people are going to be hitting 7,000 XP constantly. That is just not logical. You are also assuming people are going to be willing to sink money/dilithium to get these mat, or would be willing to re-grind the same content that have already done ad nauseum.
Not everyone has infinite time/money to sink into a game. Reasonable time investment is all people want. The current system is not reasonable.
I'm trying to think of a polite way to ask if you even read what I said. Because you would have seen that I did not assume that folks hit 7k constantly. I allowed for folks to do that, in setting the minimum time - which was the point of the reply. I pointed out that it would be extremely unlikely for it to be under 300 days - thus again not assuming that folks would be hitting that 7k.
The research projects require a single common material - so there is nothing about them having to spend any money much less any grind to get the mats for the research projects.
Finally, there wasn't a damn thing said about it being reasonable at all...pointing out the flaws in the math is not defending it, it's just pointing out the flaws in the math.
But this is SUPER scary for someone that does not log in every day - image a "casual" player who manages to log in 3x per week - so that would take a couple years!! That is super scary.
Yeah, they're massively screwed. Hell, even the person that logs in every day is likely feeling screwed...that one to a few times a week person, yeah - it's not going to be their thing.
So a casual player take a year to get to LvL 15 - then can spend a lot of money/time for to gamble on getting a piece of gear that might be useful.
Personally, I think that folks are seriously overlooking just how much of a gamble it is...it's why I've kept bringing it up in the thread. In the end, who cares if it's done in a day or done in a year when you're looking at 0% chance (even with trying to round up) of getting what you actually want? It's a garbage system.
This whole system for the games causal players is like looking up a huge mountain - and when you get to the top - if you get to the top - you can then work hard for something that might be useful or not.
Thing is, this starts to get into the expectations of the casual player - eh? What they think is reasonable vs. other folks? Cryptic needs to take a look at what their average player first, then consider their casual and hardcore players.
Then you might have those people say "well you can sell the stuff for EC" Lololololo - in 1-2 years most of the stuff will at the high end will be vendor trash - or may have been surpassed by Rep/Fleet/lock-box gear.
Heh, that's kind of the funny thing about it - it's like Cryptic thinks there's an actual market for anything below Mk XII out there. And it's like they're ignoring that by the time the average player is doing anything with this R&D system, well - Hell, we'll be at X2 and beyond - so more of it will just all be vendor trash. The gambling aspect of it - just so much vendor trash.
Maybe somewhere down the line, some of it will matter - that's why I'm just doing the Research Projects...cause maybe 105+ days down the road, there might be something?
Heh, it's something that kind of bugs me about some of the replies where folks come off thinking I'm defending it. It's not that in the least, I'm defending the folks complaining. Think of it this way, eh?
Folks complain with a bunch of nonsense that is basically garbage. Cryptic ignores it, cause they know it's nonsense.
Folks complain with a bunch of stuff that is not garbage. No doubt Cryptic can (and often has) ignore it, but at that point you can just give them the double fingers and walk away...right?
It's just about the actual complaints getting swallowed up by all the bogus information - and - thus it possibly getting ignored.
That it will take at least 296 days is not defending it as being okay...it's saying that we go to Cryptic with how ridiculous the real minimum time is rather than a number that Cryptic will automatically write off as wrong and thus ignore the rest of what's being said.
As I finish typing this I am even asking myself why I did - I really don't care that much any more. MEH
:P
Lolmeh...it is kind of funny. I'm trying to think about the last time I actually played STO where it was more than logging in and clicking/scrolling my TRIBBLE off. No, wait - I had to run the mission for T5 New Rom the other day. But yeah, DOFFing, Starbase, R&D, Rep stuff...lol...they should just make it a webpage where you click/scroll and don't worry about playing, eh?
In that time I can max out every rep grind, and equip pretty much my entire suite of characters in fleet gear + rep gear.
In that time for crafting, you've maxxed out one of, how many schools? That seems like bad ROI
Only takes 5 days to get 3 slots unlocked so assuming that you are doing the XP project every 20 hours, then on one character you will have got 3 out of 7 schools to level 20 in 296 days give or take a few days. With 3 characters, then you can have every school at level 20 in that time.
For the average person that logs in once per day, it will take less than 110 days to get to level 15 in every school assuming they have 3 characters and less than 350 days to get to level 20 in every school.
Only takes 5 days to get 3 slots unlocked so assuming that you are doing the XP project every 20 hours, then on one character you will have got 3 out of 7 schools to level 20 in 296 days give or take a few days. With 3 characters, then you can have every school at level 20 in that time.
For the average person that logs in once per day, it will take less than 110 days to get to level 15 in every school assuming they have 3 characters and less than 350 days to get to level 20 in every school.
Still seems like a waste of time and resources since I can get equivalent gear in less time doing the other grinds.
Still seems like a waste of time and resources since I can get equivalent gear in less time doing the other grinds.
True, but crafting is not for everyone. Some people like crafting and other people will not. Just like some people like PvP, Raiding, and/or Foundry and other people don't. If you don't like crafting, then you can always find crafted equipment on the exchange or donate the materials to a trustworthy crafter and have them craft it for you.
I like raiding. This game has no raiding. I play other games for my raiding fix.
The game had raiding until they removed Terradome and changed the Borg STFs so they can be finished in 15 minutes or less. Although, Fleet Actions and Public Queue content could be considered as Raiding according to some players.
whatever the math says, it will take longer to max out my rep than it took to max out a t5 fleet.
I tend to think of PUGs as "looting and pillaging," myself.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
Only takes 5 days to get 3 slots unlocked so assuming that you are doing the XP project every 20 hours, then on one character you will have got 3 out of 7 schools to level 20 in 296 days give or take a few days. With 3 characters, then you can have every school at level 20 in that time.
For the average person that logs in once per day, it will take less than 110 days to get to level 15 in every school assuming they have 3 characters and less than 350 days to get to level 20 in every school.
I can't even begin to say how stupid it is to have something in a video game that takes a player 300 days straight to complete!!
It is just mind boggling that it take 300 days to complete something and then when you do - you are not even guaranteed a specific item that you want.
This is just a SUPER FAIL system.
300 days of constant logging in to get a CHANCE at something you want = FAIL!!!
Still seems like a waste of time and resources since I can get equivalent gear in less time doing the other grinds.
Meh, it's one of those things where folks will probably not think about what I'm saying and label it as defending Cryptic when it's not a case of doing that...just a case of pointing out the flaw in the comparison.
Say it takes 320 days to get that one school to L20 (just looking at a single school, ignoring that multiple schools would be running, going with variation on the 6k vs. 7k, etc, etc, etc)...
How much time was spent on each of those 320 days to do it? Less than a minute. The Research Project only requires a single Common Material and a RLS DOFF (not consumed). Open up the DOFF interface, scroll to the project, click it, click start task...it's done. You could grab a cheap starting amount of mats off the Exchange and get the rest from extremely fluffy 'n casual DOFFing. So less than a minute a day spent to get to L20.
Compare that to the time invested on getting all the Reps to T5, grinding out all the Marks, Dilithium, etc, etc, etc...to equip your toons.
It's kind of a bogus comparison. Cause in the end, you'll have spent more than 320 minutes to go the one way...yes, the overall length of time that passes will be longer - but the actual time spent will be shorter.
But then you get into the rest of what you're saying there, and that's where a definite issue arises because of the gambling aspect of the R&D system. Just how much time and resources will end up being wasted trying to get the gear you want once you start crafting?
And tada...that comparison about the time comes into play.
For example, you can buy the UR Fleet Elite Antiproton Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg]x2 for how much?
You've got a 0.625% chance of being able to craft a VR Antiproton Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg] for how much? That's assuming you get the VR in the first place.
You could T5 the Reps and equip all your guys faster than you're likely ever going to be able to craft a single thing you want...and in the end, cheaper too.
The ROI with R&D is abysmal...the gambling aspect of it makes the ROI garbage.
Folks keep talking about the length of time it will take to get to L20 as if it means they're going to craft anything they want once they do...no, getting to the point you can craft something is where the garbage starts.
That's why a bunch of folks were ticked off with the change to how many Research projects we could slot...it was one thing to spend 35 days or so to get to the point we had to deal with that garbage...it's another for it to be 100+ days to do it.
In the end, though, really - does it matter if it is 320+ days, 105+ days, 35+ days, or even 0 days...when we're still going to be looking at less than 1% chance of crafting what we want with the VR stuff and near 0% chance with the UR stuff.
I can't even begin to say how stupid it is to have something in a video game that takes a player 300 days straight to complete!!
It is just mind boggling that it take 300 days to complete something and then when you do - you are not even guaranteed a specific item that you want.
This is just a SUPER FAIL system.
300 days of constant logging in to get a CHANCE at something you want = FAIL!!!
Most people will agree to that ^^^ statement
By Level 20, you have maxed out your crafting skill. I am not sure if at that level, you actually still need to worry about not crafting what you wanted.
Level 15 is where you can start to craft something that you may want.
How much time was spent on each of those 320 days to do it? Less than a minute. The Research Project only requires a single Common Material and a RLS DOFF (not consumed). Open up the DOFF interface, scroll to the project, click it, click start task...it's done. You could grab a cheap starting amount of mats off the Exchange and get the rest from extremely fluffy 'n casual DOFFing. So less than a minute a day spent to get to L20.
IMO, the real problem here is that it's just a completely abstract "press this button" crafting system for the next 150 to 320 days before you actually craft something you wanted.
[/QUOTE]
With a new reputation, you usually get a bunch of missions you can immediately play, and you get access to new abilities and gear early on, too. A Borg Deflector can be useful gear even if you can't buy the other sets yet, for example).
But Crafting just reuses pre-existing missions to get the crafting materials. There isn't actually something new to explore, other than the way to press "Daily Crafting Skill Boost" once per day.
I really think the crafting system would need to offer players something interesting to craft - not components, but actual, useful items - from the start.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
By Level 20, you have maxed out your crafting skill. I am not sure if at that level, you actually still need to worry about not crafting what you wanted.
Level 15 is where you can start to craft something that you may want.
You're never guaranteed what you want.
Sure, you may get the UR Wide Arc Phaser Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII...but the odds of getting the mods you want are near 0%.
By Level 20, you have maxed out your crafting skill. I am not sure if at that level, you actually still need to worry about not crafting what you wanted.
Level 15 is where you can start to craft something that you may want.
I don't think at any level you can pick the [mods] for the item that you want - I think this is the biggest drawback of the whole system(well and the time to get leveled to)
I don't think at any level you can pick the [mods] for the item that you want - I think this is the biggest drawback of the whole system(well and the time to get leveled to)
That's the thing, there's so much focus on it taking near a year to get to L20 by spending less than a minute a day...when folks are possibly looking at spending years upon years to get what they actually want while spending all the time to get all the mats, craft all the components, and finally craft the damn piece in the end. It's a ridiculous return on the investment.
I don't think at any level you can pick the [mods] for the item that you want - I think this is the biggest drawback of the whole system(well and the time to get leveled to)
I know. But you at least get a ultra-rare item out of it, rather than just a common or uncommon item. I am not sure the mods are really that critical by then anymore.
I still dislike that aspect.
But I also seem to remember that mod selection may be a further enhancement of the system - but then, the cost per crafted item will go up to "compensate" for the lack of randomness.
The Aegis Gear Set seems to follow that model already.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I know. But you at least get a ultra-rare item out of it, rather than just a common or uncommon item. I am not sure the mods are really that critical by then anymore.
I still dislike that aspect.
But I also seem to remember that mod selection may be a further enhancement of the system - but then, the cost per crafted item will go up to "compensate" for the lack of randomness.
The Aegis Gear Set seems to follow that model already.
When looking at weapons, the difference between Ultra Rare and...
Very Rare +2.5% damage strength/base
Rare +5.0% damage strength/base
Uncommon +7.5% damage strength/base
Common +10% damage strength/base
And only the unique items can be UR...
So a 360 Beam or a 90 DHC...vs. Fleet Beam or Fleet DHC. Say you get a [Acc][Dmg]x2[PvP Res] 360 Beam...is the 360 worth having been able to buy a 250 beam with [CrtD]x2[Dmg]x2 instead?
When looking at weapons, the difference between Ultra Rare and...
Very Rare +2.5% damage strength/base
Rare +5.0% damage strength/base
Uncommon +7.5% damage strength/base
Common +10% damage strength/base
And only the unique items can be UR...
So a 360 Beam or a 90 DHC...vs. Fleet Beam or Fleet DHC. Say you get a [Acc][Dmg]x2[PvP Res] 360 Beam...is the 360 worth having been able to buy a 250 beam with [CrtD]x2[Dmg]x2 instead?
Depends on how valuable 360° beams really are. I think on my Vesta, it would be neat if I could have a Omnidirectional Phaser rather than an Anti-Proton Array (though it won't change much, since I still use Aux Phasers and run minimum weapon power for the other weapons. But at least the Tact consoles won't be useless.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I dunno, having a 360 disruptor BA on the back of my Vesta would at least make subsystem targeting useable.
Having minced around with crafting a few days, I've come to these conclusions:
I can deal with the time gating. I can deal with random mod business. I can deal with the dil costs of xi and xii gear.
What I'm currently struggling with is the lack of materials to actually craft stuff above mk vi. I can kind of see what the devs are trying (I think), basically forcing people in to dead queues. I have 2 problems with that: the drop rate seems to be ultra rubbish, and the dead queues are still dead.
Sure, you may get the UR Wide Arc Phaser Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII...but the odds of getting the mods you want are near 0%.
Didn't they say that some future patch might add being able to change or choose the mods on gear? As it stands now I'm not really interested in making anything. If they allow one to choose or change mods that's when I'll want to start making things. So, now I will just continue playing like I have been and add the 20 hour research projects and request R&D assistance to my regular doffing regimen.
Didn't they say that some future patch might add being able to change or choose the mods on gear? As it stands now I'm not really interested in making anything. If they allow one to choose or change mods that's when I'll want to start making things. So, now I will just continue playing like I have been and add the 20 hour research projects and request R&D assistance to my regular doffing regimen.
Heh, something along those lines. If they actually do something three months to a year from now, I don't want to have to wait another three months to a year to get at it...so just plugging along with Research Projects.
The system is in place - now all they need to do is get their head out of their rectal cavity and make it function.
A - Eliminate NPC vendors. Make everything - from medical supplies to self-sealing stem bolts to Large batteries - craftable. Everything! From the lowest levels (med supplies, for example, should be craftable at level 1 with minimal materials. While large consumables at like 7 to 10.
But not ships.
B - introduce a Market interface that's filterable and searchable (this they don't have, it will take time to build).
C - Enable mod alteration jobs - for any weapon, not just the ones you're trying to craft. Enable the ability to take an existing device with mods you don't want and modify it with the mods you do want - within the constraints of that device (No +plas on a phaser, for example).
D - Eliminate the dil sink from crafting. It's already got a draconian time sink, that's all it needs.
E - Eliminate the gambling. You craft what you input - be it a common warp core or an Ultra Rare one (which would, incidentally, require one each - common, uncommon, rare, very rare - warp core in the buildup process). You choose the procs during creation.
At level 20 allow players to create 'liberated' versions of ships (up to tier 4) - captured, reconditioned ships from opposing factions. So they can craft, for example, a KDF BOP usable by a Fed player! And vice versa. After all, this would require 2 changes - the 'flag' in game that defines what faction the ship goes to in the database, and the paint scheme. The model wouldn't change, nor it's functions.
Make fleets capable of acquiring tier 5 opposing ships the same way.
All of these things will rescue STO from it's current NGE situation, and enable it to grow robustly. Just look at Eve Online - they've done this with their market and craft systems and it has served them splendidly for a decade!
Eliminate the dil sink from crafting. Eliminate the gambling.
These won't happen for the simple fact that there isn't any money in giving things away.
My Old Blog about things that could and should have been added when I wrote it. Not sure what I want to do with it now. I'll just keep it available now that most of it is outdated.
These won't happen for the simple fact that there isn't any money in giving things away.
Why exactly do they need to make money from crafting? Having a FIXED dilithium cost which is proportional to fleet / rep gear is probably fair. But why do they need to profit from crafting? Aren't they already profiting from ships, lock boxes, lobi and all the other stuff they sell? Is there any content coming which doesn't have a huge grind and/or cost attached?
Is this what makes F2P better? If so I would rather pay the $15 and have a real MMO with an emphasis on content. TYVM!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
But it's bad math...
2,070,000 / 6000 = 345
2,070,000 / 7000 = 296
The time to get to L20 running just the 20 hour Research projects will be somewhere between 296 and...it will never take 345 days. Cause it doesn't take long for you to get 7k consistently, so the 345 day simply doesn't exist.
It will take at least 296 days...not that it will take at least 335 days.
Hell, I just turned in three...a L6, and 2x L4...got two 7k and one 6k for the results.
Odds of it being below 300 though...isn't that great. Odds of it being over 335 days isn't that great either.
Seems to be somewhat silly to be quibbling over a month there, when going from L19 to L20 will take ~47 days...while providing +10 skill and a title.
Wish I could remember if it was a podcast or a post where Cryptic talked about the folks they expected to go beyond L15...
So a casual player take a year to get to LvL 15 - then can spend a lot of money/time for to gamble on getting a piece of gear that might be useful.
This whole system for the games causal players is like looking up a huge mountain - and when you get to the top - if you get to the top - you can then work hard for something that might be useful or not.
Then you might have those people say "well you can sell the stuff for EC" Lololololo - in 1-2 years most of the stuff will at the high end will be vendor trash - or may have been surpassed by Rep/Fleet/lock-box gear.
I know you agree what a fail this system is.
As I finish typing this I am even asking myself why I did - I really don't care that much any more. MEH
:P
Nope, it's not bad math. You are just making bad assumptions. You are assuming people are going to be hitting 7,000 XP constantly. That is just not logical. You are also assuming people are going to be willing to sink money/dilithium to get these mat, or would be willing to re-grind the same content that have already done ad nauseum.
Not everyone has infinite time/money to sink into a game. Reasonable time investment is all people want. The current system is not reasonable.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I'm trying to think of a polite way to ask if you even read what I said. Because you would have seen that I did not assume that folks hit 7k constantly. I allowed for folks to do that, in setting the minimum time - which was the point of the reply. I pointed out that it would be extremely unlikely for it to be under 300 days - thus again not assuming that folks would be hitting that 7k.
The research projects require a single common material - so there is nothing about them having to spend any money much less any grind to get the mats for the research projects.
Finally, there wasn't a damn thing said about it being reasonable at all...pointing out the flaws in the math is not defending it, it's just pointing out the flaws in the math.
Yeah, they're massively screwed. Hell, even the person that logs in every day is likely feeling screwed...that one to a few times a week person, yeah - it's not going to be their thing.
Personally, I think that folks are seriously overlooking just how much of a gamble it is...it's why I've kept bringing it up in the thread. In the end, who cares if it's done in a day or done in a year when you're looking at 0% chance (even with trying to round up) of getting what you actually want? It's a garbage system.
Thing is, this starts to get into the expectations of the casual player - eh? What they think is reasonable vs. other folks? Cryptic needs to take a look at what their average player first, then consider their casual and hardcore players.
Heh, that's kind of the funny thing about it - it's like Cryptic thinks there's an actual market for anything below Mk XII out there. And it's like they're ignoring that by the time the average player is doing anything with this R&D system, well - Hell, we'll be at X2 and beyond - so more of it will just all be vendor trash. The gambling aspect of it - just so much vendor trash.
Maybe somewhere down the line, some of it will matter - that's why I'm just doing the Research Projects...cause maybe 105+ days down the road, there might be something?
Heh, it's something that kind of bugs me about some of the replies where folks come off thinking I'm defending it. It's not that in the least, I'm defending the folks complaining. Think of it this way, eh?
Folks complain with a bunch of nonsense that is basically garbage. Cryptic ignores it, cause they know it's nonsense.
Folks complain with a bunch of stuff that is not garbage. No doubt Cryptic can (and often has) ignore it, but at that point you can just give them the double fingers and walk away...right?
It's just about the actual complaints getting swallowed up by all the bogus information - and - thus it possibly getting ignored.
That it will take at least 296 days is not defending it as being okay...it's saying that we go to Cryptic with how ridiculous the real minimum time is rather than a number that Cryptic will automatically write off as wrong and thus ignore the rest of what's being said.
Simple as that...
Lolmeh...it is kind of funny. I'm trying to think about the last time I actually played STO where it was more than logging in and clicking/scrolling my TRIBBLE off. No, wait - I had to run the mission for T5 New Rom the other day. But yeah, DOFFing, Starbase, R&D, Rep stuff...lol...they should just make it a webpage where you click/scroll and don't worry about playing, eh?
Wheeeeee...yeah, there's no wheeee.
In that time I can max out every rep grind, and equip pretty much my entire suite of characters in fleet gear + rep gear.
In that time for crafting, you've maxxed out one of, how many schools? That seems like bad ROI
Only takes 5 days to get 3 slots unlocked so assuming that you are doing the XP project every 20 hours, then on one character you will have got 3 out of 7 schools to level 20 in 296 days give or take a few days. With 3 characters, then you can have every school at level 20 in that time.
For the average person that logs in once per day, it will take less than 110 days to get to level 15 in every school assuming they have 3 characters and less than 350 days to get to level 20 in every school.
Still seems like a waste of time and resources since I can get equivalent gear in less time doing the other grinds.
True, but crafting is not for everyone. Some people like crafting and other people will not. Just like some people like PvP, Raiding, and/or Foundry and other people don't. If you don't like crafting, then you can always find crafted equipment on the exchange or donate the materials to a trustworthy crafter and have them craft it for you.
The game had raiding until they removed Terradome and changed the Borg STFs so they can be finished in 15 minutes or less. Although, Fleet Actions and Public Queue content could be considered as Raiding according to some players.
free jkname
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I tend to think of PUGs as "looting and pillaging," myself.
I can't even begin to say how stupid it is to have something in a video game that takes a player 300 days straight to complete!!
It is just mind boggling that it take 300 days to complete something and then when you do - you are not even guaranteed a specific item that you want.
This is just a SUPER FAIL system.
300 days of constant logging in to get a CHANCE at something you want = FAIL!!!
Most people will agree to that ^^^ statement
Meh, it's one of those things where folks will probably not think about what I'm saying and label it as defending Cryptic when it's not a case of doing that...just a case of pointing out the flaw in the comparison.
Say it takes 320 days to get that one school to L20 (just looking at a single school, ignoring that multiple schools would be running, going with variation on the 6k vs. 7k, etc, etc, etc)...
How much time was spent on each of those 320 days to do it? Less than a minute. The Research Project only requires a single Common Material and a RLS DOFF (not consumed). Open up the DOFF interface, scroll to the project, click it, click start task...it's done. You could grab a cheap starting amount of mats off the Exchange and get the rest from extremely fluffy 'n casual DOFFing. So less than a minute a day spent to get to L20.
Compare that to the time invested on getting all the Reps to T5, grinding out all the Marks, Dilithium, etc, etc, etc...to equip your toons.
It's kind of a bogus comparison. Cause in the end, you'll have spent more than 320 minutes to go the one way...yes, the overall length of time that passes will be longer - but the actual time spent will be shorter.
But then you get into the rest of what you're saying there, and that's where a definite issue arises because of the gambling aspect of the R&D system. Just how much time and resources will end up being wasted trying to get the gear you want once you start crafting?
And tada...that comparison about the time comes into play.
For example, you can buy the UR Fleet Elite Antiproton Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg]x2 for how much?
You've got a 0.625% chance of being able to craft a VR Antiproton Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2[Dmg] for how much? That's assuming you get the VR in the first place.
You could T5 the Reps and equip all your guys faster than you're likely ever going to be able to craft a single thing you want...and in the end, cheaper too.
The ROI with R&D is abysmal...the gambling aspect of it makes the ROI garbage.
Folks keep talking about the length of time it will take to get to L20 as if it means they're going to craft anything they want once they do...no, getting to the point you can craft something is where the garbage starts.
That's why a bunch of folks were ticked off with the change to how many Research projects we could slot...it was one thing to spend 35 days or so to get to the point we had to deal with that garbage...it's another for it to be 100+ days to do it.
In the end, though, really - does it matter if it is 320+ days, 105+ days, 35+ days, or even 0 days...when we're still going to be looking at less than 1% chance of crafting what we want with the VR stuff and near 0% chance with the UR stuff.
By Level 20, you have maxed out your crafting skill. I am not sure if at that level, you actually still need to worry about not crafting what you wanted.
Level 15 is where you can start to craft something that you may want.
IMO, the real problem here is that it's just a completely abstract "press this button" crafting system for the next 150 to 320 days before you actually craft something you wanted.
[/QUOTE]
With a new reputation, you usually get a bunch of missions you can immediately play, and you get access to new abilities and gear early on, too. A Borg Deflector can be useful gear even if you can't buy the other sets yet, for example).
But Crafting just reuses pre-existing missions to get the crafting materials. There isn't actually something new to explore, other than the way to press "Daily Crafting Skill Boost" once per day.
I really think the crafting system would need to offer players something interesting to craft - not components, but actual, useful items - from the start.
You're never guaranteed what you want.
Sure, you may get the UR Wide Arc Phaser Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII...but the odds of getting the mods you want are near 0%.
I don't think at any level you can pick the [mods] for the item that you want - I think this is the biggest drawback of the whole system(well and the time to get leveled to)
Edit - Snap - got ninja'd by Virus :P
That's the thing, there's so much focus on it taking near a year to get to L20 by spending less than a minute a day...when folks are possibly looking at spending years upon years to get what they actually want while spending all the time to get all the mats, craft all the components, and finally craft the damn piece in the end. It's a ridiculous return on the investment.
I still dislike that aspect.
But I also seem to remember that mod selection may be a further enhancement of the system - but then, the cost per crafted item will go up to "compensate" for the lack of randomness.
The Aegis Gear Set seems to follow that model already.
When looking at weapons, the difference between Ultra Rare and...
Very Rare +2.5% damage strength/base
Rare +5.0% damage strength/base
Uncommon +7.5% damage strength/base
Common +10% damage strength/base
And only the unique items can be UR...
So a 360 Beam or a 90 DHC...vs. Fleet Beam or Fleet DHC. Say you get a [Acc][Dmg]x2[PvP Res] 360 Beam...is the 360 worth having been able to buy a 250 beam with [CrtD]x2[Dmg]x2 instead?
Having minced around with crafting a few days, I've come to these conclusions:
I can deal with the time gating. I can deal with random mod business. I can deal with the dil costs of xi and xii gear.
What I'm currently struggling with is the lack of materials to actually craft stuff above mk vi. I can kind of see what the devs are trying (I think), basically forcing people in to dead queues. I have 2 problems with that: the drop rate seems to be ultra rubbish, and the dead queues are still dead.
Didn't they say that some future patch might add being able to change or choose the mods on gear? As it stands now I'm not really interested in making anything. If they allow one to choose or change mods that's when I'll want to start making things. So, now I will just continue playing like I have been and add the 20 hour research projects and request R&D assistance to my regular doffing regimen.
Heh, something along those lines. If they actually do something three months to a year from now, I don't want to have to wait another three months to a year to get at it...so just plugging along with Research Projects.
A - Eliminate NPC vendors. Make everything - from medical supplies to self-sealing stem bolts to Large batteries - craftable. Everything! From the lowest levels (med supplies, for example, should be craftable at level 1 with minimal materials. While large consumables at like 7 to 10.
But not ships.
B - introduce a Market interface that's filterable and searchable (this they don't have, it will take time to build).
C - Enable mod alteration jobs - for any weapon, not just the ones you're trying to craft. Enable the ability to take an existing device with mods you don't want and modify it with the mods you do want - within the constraints of that device (No +plas on a phaser, for example).
D - Eliminate the dil sink from crafting. It's already got a draconian time sink, that's all it needs.
E - Eliminate the gambling. You craft what you input - be it a common warp core or an Ultra Rare one (which would, incidentally, require one each - common, uncommon, rare, very rare - warp core in the buildup process). You choose the procs during creation.
At level 20 allow players to create 'liberated' versions of ships (up to tier 4) - captured, reconditioned ships from opposing factions. So they can craft, for example, a KDF BOP usable by a Fed player! And vice versa. After all, this would require 2 changes - the 'flag' in game that defines what faction the ship goes to in the database, and the paint scheme. The model wouldn't change, nor it's functions.
Make fleets capable of acquiring tier 5 opposing ships the same way.
All of these things will rescue STO from it's current NGE situation, and enable it to grow robustly. Just look at Eve Online - they've done this with their market and craft systems and it has served them splendidly for a decade!
These won't happen for the simple fact that there isn't any money in giving things away.
Why exactly do they need to make money from crafting? Having a FIXED dilithium cost which is proportional to fleet / rep gear is probably fair. But why do they need to profit from crafting? Aren't they already profiting from ships, lock boxes, lobi and all the other stuff they sell? Is there any content coming which doesn't have a huge grind and/or cost attached?
Is this what makes F2P better? If so I would rather pay the $15 and have a real MMO with an emphasis on content. TYVM!
- Judge Aaron Satie