Honestly I think both sides were wrong. Both sides created this mess together equally.
The Federation was wrong and stupid to ignore the evidence of Undine Infiltration in the alpha quadrant, even when a Vulcan Ambassador and Zaelle (sp?) were discovered as Undine. But its also true they had no actual Undine target to strike at until the Jenolan sphere invasion. But I can't argue it was foolish to just sweep it all under the rug, especially when they infiltrated enough people to put DS9 at risk and steal a ship. Still, if the Klingons were placated by saying. "Okay you were right." That should have been done long ago.
But J'mpok and the Klingon Empire in general was just as stupid and wrong. They played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war with the Federation. It put former allies at their throats and wasted tons of lives and resources that could have otherwise been used to deal with the Borg or Undine. The Klingon Empire aided the Undine by starting a war.
The Klingons were right, but their methods are wrong. The whole Vulcan Ambassador mission is a fair case-in-point. A Klingon ship just shows up out of nowhere and tells your Captain that s/he has an Undine on their vessel. But when the Captain very reasonably asks for evidence, the Klingon just opens fire.
Not to mention they seemed perfectly happy to let B'Vat consort with a mad scientist hell bent on using augmenting which nearly destroyed the whole Klingon race a few centuries back. They didn't restrain him from attacking a peace conference, nor put a halt to his insane planet killer and time travel ideas.
I guess this is my long-winded away of saying that the mess of the war and the aftermath was equally the fault of both sides. We created this mess together.
You do have a point. But party at fault for not listening is the Federation. Can be traced right back to that. Had the federation even said "ok we don't have anything yet, how bout information sharing, joint task force if you have any data to share." Ya know done something even window dressing like that, would of placated the Klingons, war averted.
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I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on that point there talonxv. It is the Klingons who struck the first blow and actually started the war. They didn't have to, but they did.
One doesn't have to respond to every insult or slight with violence, especially when it plays into a greater threat's hands. 50/50 split of the blame.
But I'm not saying you're wrong though. Actually that would have been a much smarter way for the Federation to handle it. A joint task force to review the evidence and search for more together as allies would have done so much more.
I have to agree with Miko on this one. Fault is equally shared.
And I'm not so sure that asking the Klingons to information-share wouldn't have provoked them then, considering how well asking for proof that Sokketh was an Undine went over at P'Jem.
But that's just my opinion, not saying it's right or wrong.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
For the record, J'mpok did invite the Federation to participate in the Gorn operation as per the Khitomer Accord. The Federation flat out rejected and condemned the Gorn invasion without proof for or against.
The way I see it, they could have accepted and at least sent one ship - the Enterprise maybe, to show up there and see first hand what's going on before they start comdemning their allies. But, they didn't.
For the record, J'mpok did invite the Federation to participate in the Gorn operation as per the Khitomer Accord. The Federation flat out rejected and condemned the Gorn invasion without proof for or against.
The way I see it, they could have accepted and at least sent one ship - the Enterprise maybe, to show up there and see first hand what's going on before they start comdemning their allies. But, they didn't.
Because the Klingons freaking invaded the homeworld of a species they (the Federation) were getting along with for the most part. The federation doesn't work that way, seriously almost 50 years of the franchise being around and there are still people watching it that don't seem to get that?
Because the Klingons freaking invaded the homeworld of a species they (the Federation) were getting along with for the most part. The federation doesn't work that way, seriously almost 50 years of the franchise being around and there are still people watching it that don't seem to get that?
Did you even read the post you quoted??
This happened while the Federation and the Klingon Empire still were allies.
The least they could do as an ally is to investigate the claims themselves before starting to pretend to be righteous and throw around denouncements left and right without proof.
This happened while the Federation and the Klingon Empire still were allies.
The least they could do as an ally is to investigate the claims themselves before starting to pretend to be righteous and throw around denouncements left and right without proof.
sorry hart looks at the federation through rosy lens. They are always in the right. KDF has been wrong and still will be wrong because the shows say so.
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This happened while the Federation and the Klingon Empire still were allies.
And, so was the invasion of the Cardassian Union on DS9.
I didn't see the federation going along with that one either.
The least they could do as an ally is to investigate the claims themselves before starting to pretend to be righteous and throw around denouncements left and right without proof.
So the Federation should have helped the Klingons violate another race's sovereignty becuase they might have infiltrators in their government based on the say so of the Klingons who tried that before and were wrong.
sorry hart looks at the federation through rosy lens. They are always in the right. KDF has been wrong and still will be wrong because the shows say so.
No. just living through a real world nation pulling the same TRIBBLE 11 years ago.
And, so was the invasion of the Cardassian Union on DS9.
I didn't see the federation going along with that one either.
Apples and oranges. The Federation didn't condemn the invasion on Cardassia, but Gowron broke the alliance they had by attacking DS9. Probably under the advise from the changeling Martok.
Actually, it's Sisko that betrayed the operation to the Cardassians, but that can't be considered official Federation policy on the matter.
And despite some similarities in the story, that is simply not the case in STO. The story is quite different and here the writers agreed that the Klingons were right, like it or not.
So the Federation should have helped the Klingons violate another race's sovereignty becuase they might have infiltrators in their government based on the say so of the Klingons who tried that before and were wrong.
How is sending a single ship on a diplomatic investigation helping them? Send the Enterprise, have Shon beam down an away team and ask "OK, Klingon allies, show me those Undine!"
But noooo, it's easier to sit in the chair and just condemn them without any way of knowing by yourself what's going on. That something that the STO Feds. have mastered doing. Ironically for your claims here, it turned out that the Gorn Hegemony was in fact taken over by Undine.
Also why is one allied with species they don't trust?
The Federation did indeed condemn the Klingon invasion of Cardassia in DS9's Way of the Warrior.
They only begrudgingly accepted the Klingons remaining on the colony planets stolen from the Cardassians from their condemned invasion.
It was the same with the Gorn as it was with the Cardassians. The Federation has not, and will not support the invasion and conquering of a sovereign race and its territory on the premise that the race's government 'might' be infested with Undine. At the mere word of an ally that has proven to be unstable and rash beforehand.
If the Klingons had brought absolute and unquestionable proof that either the Gorn or Cardassians had been infiltrated by shape-changers then the stance may have been very different.
Again, the Klingons made the decision to attack the Cardassians, then later the Gorn, then later the Federation itself. No matter what the provocation, the choice to play into Undine hands by invading was theirs and theirs alone.
Again, 50/50 split of the blame between both sides.
It was the same with the Gorn as it was with the Cardassians. The Federation has not, and will not support the invasion and conquering of a sovereign race and its territory on the premise that the race's government 'might' be infested with Undine. At the mere word of an ally that has proven to be unstable and rash beforehand.
That's what I'm saying the whole time - the Federation could have checked for evidence before they decided to condemn the invasion beforehand, acting of actual 'pro' or 'against' evidence. They were even invited in the Gorn operation by J'mpok. They wouldn't have to send an armada of ships to help the invasion at first, just a single ship in a diplomatic investigation to see what's true and what is not, before they start a quarrel with their ally.
I'm not sure what concepts of alliance you have in mind, but in my book you don't just turn the back on someone that's suposed to be your ally and condemn them based on assumptions and without having checked the situation yourself.
That's what I'm saying the whole time - the Federation could have checked for evidence before they decided to condemn the invasion beforehand, acting of actual 'pro' or 'against' evidence. They were even invited in the Gorn operation by J'mpok. They wouldn't have to send an armada of ships to help the invasion at first, just a single ship in a diplomatic investigation to see what's true and what is not, before they start a quarrel with their ally.
I'm not sure what concepts of alliance you have in mind, but in my book you don't just turn the back on someone that's suposed to be your ally and condemn them based on assumptions and without having checked the situation yourself.
His " humans only club " bias is showing in his reasoning......
Though we as players have no idea of the KDF brought concrete evidence or not as such information was not covered in the PT2409 history, nor do we know if said evidence was just blatantly ignored by any possible Undine infiltrators within Star Fleet and the UFP.
Both Star Fleet and the UFP are said to be completely infilrated to the highest levels of command according to section 31 and the load screen I keep seeing that says so.
That's what I'm saying the whole time - the Federation could have checked for evidence before they decided to condemn the invasion beforehand, acting of actual 'pro' or 'against' evidence. They were even invited in the Gorn operation by J'mpok. They wouldn't have to send an armada of ships to help the invasion at first, just a single ship in a diplomatic investigation to see what's true and what is not, before they start a quarrel with their ally.
I'm not sure what concepts of alliance you have in mind, but in my book you don't just turn the back on someone that's suposed to be your ally and condemn them based on assumptions and without having checked the situation yourself.
Indeed. To be honest, the Federation has been portrayed as being rather stupid in the Path to 2409 and in the game somewhat.
I mean seriously, everything says that the Federation should be smart enough to send SOMEONE. Despite the precious 'Prime Directive', they LOVE to meddle. Unless there was some super high-up person who was already an Undine in the Federation Council or Starfleet by this point, everything points to the Federation doing what it usually does, that is to say, something.
They didn't even secretly send (at least as far as we know) someone from Section 31? Even if they kept the same public image, it still doesn't mean that they could've said to J'mpok, "Listen, I know to the public we already said your campaign wasn't right, but we looked into it more, and you were right." Or something along those lines. Something to say to J'mpok as a means of indirectly apologizing, and possibly fixing things faster.
I mean, I really doubt that J'mpok went in looking to conquer. I also doubt that the Federation would have allowed him to do so even if they had helped him, and something tells me he would've been fine with that, just a gut instinct.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
That's the biggest problem, though. The game is assuming that everyone's a Klingon.
Well, everyone's in the KDF at least, just like everyone's in Starfleet. Many peope may RP mercenaries, including myself - I RP a Nausicaan pirate, but as far as the game's concerned there is no such thing like a pirate/mercenary or whatever, just KDF, Starfleet & RF Officers.
Theere is the difference. The Fed side assumes all are in starfleet, that works for most except in cases in which you play "against" story by RPing a merc (totally doable with all the non SF ships & outfits).
The Empire side assume not that every body is just in KDF but everybody is a born (or at least raised as & by) Klingon. Playing the storymissions with an all female Orion crew has a certain Roger Corman vibe to it
Indeed. To be honest, the Federation has been portrayed as being rather stupid in the Path to 2409 and in the game somewhat.
I mean seriously, everything says that the Federation should be smart enough to send SOMEONE. Despite the precious 'Prime Directive', they LOVE to meddle. Unless there was some super high-up person who was already an Undine in the Federation Council or Starfleet by this point, everything points to the Federation doing what it usually does, that is to say, something.
They didn't even secretly send (at least as far as we know) someone from Section 31? Even if they kept the same public image, it still doesn't mean that they could've said to J'mpok, "Listen, I know to the public we already said your campaign wasn't right, but we looked into it more, and you were right." Or something along those lines. Something to say to J'mpok as a means of indirectly apologizing, and possibly fixing things faster.
I mean, I really doubt that J'mpok went in looking to conquer. I also doubt that the Federation would have allowed him to do so even if they had helped him, and something tells me he would've been fine with that, just a gut instinct.
Like Admiral Zelle or close advisors to Fleetadmiral Quinn? And those are just two exposed examples without thinking much.
Theere is the difference. The Fed side assumes all are in starfleet, that works for most except in cases in which you play "against" story by RPing a merc (totally doable with all the non SF ships & outfits).
The Empire side assume not that every body is just in KDF but everybody is a born (or at least raised as & by) Klingon. Playing the storymissions with an all female Orion crew has a certain Roger Corman vibe to it
Maybe I should've phrased that better - what I actually meant was the Fed side treats you as a generic Human 90% of the time. It's even from the start itself, roll a Vulcan and you have everyone on Vulcan explaining you that "their" people also have monasteries and who Surak is, etc.
Or even better, when the Undine Soketh says "Such emotion on your face..." to my Vulcan.
That's what I'm saying the whole time - the Federation could have checked for evidence before they decided to condemn the invasion beforehand, acting of actual 'pro' or 'against' evidence. They were even invited in the Gorn operation by J'mpok. They wouldn't have to send an armada of ships to help the invasion at first, just a single ship in a diplomatic investigation to see what's true and what is not, before they start a quarrel with their ally.
I'm not sure what concepts of alliance you have in mind, but in my book you don't just turn the back on someone that's suposed to be your ally and condemn them based on assumptions and without having checked the situation yourself.
His " humans only club " bias is showing in his reasoning......
Though we as players have no idea of the KDF brought concrete evidence or not as such information was not covered in the PT2409 history, nor do we know if said evidence was just blatantly ignored by any possible Undine infiltrators within Star Fleet and the UFP.
Both Star Fleet and the UFP are said to be completely infilrated to the highest levels of command according to section 31 and the load screen I keep seeing that says so.
I think that the Federation/Starfleets lack of action is an almost definite tick in the Undine infiltration box, Starfleet loves to meddle and they have in the past paid attention to what the Empire says like when "Martok" tried to get Gowron killed with the whole hes a changeling thing. Starfleet didn't bury its head in the sand, it sent Sisko to deal with it.
At the very least pre Undine they would of sent their best and brightest, the Enterprise to take a look and show the flag at the same time to their allies.
Indeed. To be honest, the Federation has been portrayed as being rather stupid in the Path to 2409 and in the game somewhat.
(...)
To be fair, EVERYBODY in STO act like idiots. Infiltration of governments has happened so many times in the Trekverse already and now, for plot convenience, all the powers are completely unable to deal with the situation despite them even having knowledge of 8472 in the first place.
Yes, it's a game and all and everything just serves the purpose for us to shoot moving objects, but the writing really makes my head hurt at some occasions... XD
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I think that the Federation/Starfleets lack of action is an almost definite tick in the Undine infiltration box, Starfleet loves to meddle and they have in the past paid attention to what the Empire says like when "Martok" tried to get Gowron killed with the whole hes a changeling thing. Starfleet didn't bury its head in the sand, it sent Sisko to deal with it.
At the very least pre Undine they would of sent their best and brightest, the Enterprise to take a look and show the flag at the same time to their allies.
on that note, it's not surprising the kdf assumed starfleet was infiltrated. they had a invitation to meddle and they didn't... why did that not sent up a bigger red flag? you think everyone would have said something.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Comments
You do have a point. But party at fault for not listening is the Federation. Can be traced right back to that. Had the federation even said "ok we don't have anything yet, how bout information sharing, joint task force if you have any data to share." Ya know done something even window dressing like that, would of placated the Klingons, war averted.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
One doesn't have to respond to every insult or slight with violence, especially when it plays into a greater threat's hands. 50/50 split of the blame.
But I'm not saying you're wrong though. Actually that would have been a much smarter way for the Federation to handle it. A joint task force to review the evidence and search for more together as allies would have done so much more.
And I'm not so sure that asking the Klingons to information-share wouldn't have provoked them then, considering how well asking for proof that Sokketh was an Undine went over at P'Jem.
But that's just my opinion, not saying it's right or wrong.
The way I see it, they could have accepted and at least sent one ship - the Enterprise maybe, to show up there and see first hand what's going on before they start comdemning their allies. But, they didn't.
Because the Klingons freaking invaded the homeworld of a species they (the Federation) were getting along with for the most part. The federation doesn't work that way, seriously almost 50 years of the franchise being around and there are still people watching it that don't seem to get that?
Did you even read the post you quoted??
This happened while the Federation and the Klingon Empire still were allies.
The least they could do as an ally is to investigate the claims themselves before starting to pretend to be righteous and throw around denouncements left and right without proof.
sorry hart looks at the federation through rosy lens. They are always in the right. KDF has been wrong and still will be wrong because the shows say so.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
And, so was the invasion of the Cardassian Union on DS9.
I didn't see the federation going along with that one either.
So the Federation should have helped the Klingons violate another race's sovereignty becuase they might have infiltrators in their government based on the say so of the Klingons who tried that before and were wrong.
No. just living through a real world nation pulling the same TRIBBLE 11 years ago.
Apples and oranges. The Federation didn't condemn the invasion on Cardassia, but Gowron broke the alliance they had by attacking DS9. Probably under the advise from the changeling Martok.
Actually, it's Sisko that betrayed the operation to the Cardassians, but that can't be considered official Federation policy on the matter.
And despite some similarities in the story, that is simply not the case in STO. The story is quite different and here the writers agreed that the Klingons were right, like it or not.
How is sending a single ship on a diplomatic investigation helping them?
But noooo, it's easier to sit in the chair and just condemn them without any way of knowing by yourself what's going on. That something that the STO Feds. have mastered doing. Ironically for your claims here, it turned out that the Gorn Hegemony was in fact taken over by Undine.
Also why is one allied with species they don't trust?
Yes they did it was in the cliff hanger to part 1 of Way of the Warrior.
They only begrudgingly accepted the Klingons remaining on the colony planets stolen from the Cardassians from their condemned invasion.
It was the same with the Gorn as it was with the Cardassians. The Federation has not, and will not support the invasion and conquering of a sovereign race and its territory on the premise that the race's government 'might' be infested with Undine. At the mere word of an ally that has proven to be unstable and rash beforehand.
If the Klingons had brought absolute and unquestionable proof that either the Gorn or Cardassians had been infiltrated by shape-changers then the stance may have been very different.
Again, the Klingons made the decision to attack the Cardassians, then later the Gorn, then later the Federation itself. No matter what the provocation, the choice to play into Undine hands by invading was theirs and theirs alone.
Again, 50/50 split of the blame between both sides.
That's what I'm saying the whole time - the Federation could have checked for evidence before they decided to condemn the invasion beforehand, acting of actual 'pro' or 'against' evidence. They were even invited in the Gorn operation by J'mpok. They wouldn't have to send an armada of ships to help the invasion at first, just a single ship in a diplomatic investigation to see what's true and what is not, before they start a quarrel with their ally.
I'm not sure what concepts of alliance you have in mind, but in my book you don't just turn the back on someone that's suposed to be your ally and condemn them based on assumptions and without having checked the situation yourself.
His " humans only club " bias is showing in his reasoning......
Though we as players have no idea of the KDF brought concrete evidence or not as such information was not covered in the PT2409 history, nor do we know if said evidence was just blatantly ignored by any possible Undine infiltrators within Star Fleet and the UFP.
Both Star Fleet and the UFP are said to be completely infilrated to the highest levels of command according to section 31 and the load screen I keep seeing that says so.
R.I.P
Indeed. To be honest, the Federation has been portrayed as being rather stupid in the Path to 2409 and in the game somewhat.
I mean seriously, everything says that the Federation should be smart enough to send SOMEONE. Despite the precious 'Prime Directive', they LOVE to meddle. Unless there was some super high-up person who was already an Undine in the Federation Council or Starfleet by this point, everything points to the Federation doing what it usually does, that is to say, something.
They didn't even secretly send (at least as far as we know) someone from Section 31? Even if they kept the same public image, it still doesn't mean that they could've said to J'mpok, "Listen, I know to the public we already said your campaign wasn't right, but we looked into it more, and you were right." Or something along those lines. Something to say to J'mpok as a means of indirectly apologizing, and possibly fixing things faster.
I mean, I really doubt that J'mpok went in looking to conquer. I also doubt that the Federation would have allowed him to do so even if they had helped him, and something tells me he would've been fine with that, just a gut instinct.
Theere is the difference. The Fed side assumes all are in starfleet, that works for most except in cases in which you play "against" story by RPing a merc (totally doable with all the non SF ships & outfits).
The Empire side assume not that every body is just in KDF but everybody is a born (or at least raised as & by) Klingon. Playing the storymissions with an all female Orion crew has a certain Roger Corman vibe to it
Like Admiral Zelle or close advisors to Fleetadmiral Quinn? And those are just two exposed examples without thinking much.
Maybe I should've phrased that better - what I actually meant was the Fed side treats you as a generic Human 90% of the time. It's even from the start itself, roll a Vulcan and you have everyone on Vulcan explaining you that "their" people also have monasteries and who Surak is, etc.
Or even better, when the Undine Soketh says "Such emotion on your face..." to my Vulcan.
I think that the Federation/Starfleets lack of action is an almost definite tick in the Undine infiltration box, Starfleet loves to meddle and they have in the past paid attention to what the Empire says like when "Martok" tried to get Gowron killed with the whole hes a changeling thing. Starfleet didn't bury its head in the sand, it sent Sisko to deal with it.
At the very least pre Undine they would of sent their best and brightest, the Enterprise to take a look and show the flag at the same time to their allies.
To be fair, EVERYBODY in STO act like idiots. Infiltration of governments has happened so many times in the Trekverse already and now, for plot convenience, all the powers are completely unable to deal with the situation despite them even having knowledge of 8472 in the first place.
Yes, it's a game and all and everything just serves the purpose for us to shoot moving objects, but the writing really makes my head hurt at some occasions... XD
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on that note, it's not surprising the kdf assumed starfleet was infiltrated. they had a invitation to meddle and they didn't... why did that not sent up a bigger red flag? you think everyone would have said something.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.