I Don't like Koren, But I do like her first officer, One day I hope the Klingon commoners will take control of there empire from there insane nobility that spend their lives cheap blood wine.
I Don't see how Surface Tension was "Good for the KDF" Yes Undine infiltration was real, but anyone who played the Fed story line to its completion could tell you that.
The Gorn and the Orion's still have factional problems, The Gorn were conquered by the KDF and that rubs alot of them raw, and many Orion's show little if any loyalty to the KDF. The great houses still infight even during a shooting war with a power that sends wave after wave of ships deep in the heart of Omega Leonis. Remember that little trick Drake pulled on you when you were chasing him?
Most of the high council were killed off.
Star Fleet rebuilt ESD bigger and shiner than ever. But just without a dance club, which attests to the large amount of resources the federation has at its disposal.
And lets no forget Shon brought an entire fleet of or starfleets hastily put together fleet to Qo'nos in what 15 minutes after an attack on ESD, With 5 core planets(Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar,Rigel, special mention to Alpha Centauri as Earths biggest colony) and hundreds of member worlds to defend. Penetrating deep into "Enemy Territory" and lets face the truth for the klinks Chain-of-Command follows Jayne Kobb's definition more than standard military practice.
So I don't doubt Shon probably had to run over the odd klink patrol that refused to let hem pass.
While I agree the Klinks didn't come off looking bad, the ain't reeking of victory either
I Don't like Koren, But I do like her first officer, One day I hope the Klingon commoners will take control of there empire from there insane nobility that spend their lives cheap blood wine.
I Don't see how Surface Tension was "Good for the KDF" Yes Undine infiltration was real, but anyone who played the Fed story line to its completion could tell you that.
The Gorn and the Orion's still have factional problems, The Gorn were conquered by the KDF and that rubs alot of them raw, and many Orion's show little if any loyalty to the KDF. The great houses still infight even during a shooting war with a power that sends wave after wave of ships deep in the heart of Omega Leonis. Remember that little trick Drake pulled on you when you were chasing him?
Most of the high council were killed off.
Star Fleet rebuilt ESD bigger and shiner than ever. But just without a dance club, which attests to the large amount of resources the federation has at its disposal.
And lets no forget Shon brought an entire fleet of or starfleets hastily put together fleet to Qo'nos in what 15 minutes after an attack on ESD, With 5 core planets(Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar,Rigel, special mention to Alpha Centauri as Earths biggest colony) and hundreds of member worlds to defend. Penetrating deep into "Enemy Territory" and lets face the truth for the klinks Chain-of-Command follows Jayne Kobb's definition more than standard military practice.
So I don't doubt Shon probably had to run over the odd klink patrol that refused to let hem pass.
While I agree the Klinks didn't come off looking bad, the ain't reeking of victory either
Well the high council will be replaced by their successor from each house so that is not a major problem, we didn't lose the most important person on the council, J'empok. That would of screwed stability.
The other KDF races will come around in time, some are already assimilating into the culture, a shift this drastic is going to take time.
Qo'nos didn't seem to suffer anywhere near the damage that Earth did during the attack, likely because Qo'nos has better defences.
As for Shon he likely got through unhindered because plot reasons, he had to be their to be the hero and so on. Plus it was more a small taskforce than a fleet, I suspect that the core Federation words were not undefended.
The chain of command is highly structured just like Starfleet, as it has been mentioned before Klingons are not just pirates killing their superior officers on a whim.
Seriously how exactly does the Klingon Empire wasting time invading and conquering other powers becuase they suspect they might be infiltrated by the Undine actually help the galaxy when the Undine can just outright blow up planets and crush fleets with their military might?
Because to me it looks like they are weakening the galaxy by weakening other races militaries as well as their own to take out a few enemy operatives at best while antagonizing the rest of the galaxy in the process leaving it weaken and divided when the Undine arrive in force to kill them all.
If you think about it, its more or less a "copy/paste" of the Dominion War.
Klingons thought Cardassia was being controlled by a Changeling after the "Coup", which in turn prompted the whole withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and Klingons more or less going to war with the Federation.
Pretty much what happened in STO: Klingons accuse Gorn (or whoever), Federation Condemns it, Klingons and Federation go to war...
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If you think about it, its more or less a "copy/paste" of the Dominion War.
Klingons thought Cardassia was being controlled by a Changeling after the "Coup", which in turn prompted the whole withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and Klingons more or less going to war with the Federation.
Pretty much what happened in STO: Klingons accuse Gorn (or whoever), Federation Condemns it, Klingons and Federation go to war...
So basically... the Klingons have been right every time when perceiving a threat...
If you think about it, its more or less a "copy/paste" of the Dominion War.
Klingons thought Cardassia was being controlled by a Changeling after the "Coup", which in turn prompted the whole withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and Klingons more or less going to war with the Federation.
Pretty much what happened in STO: Klingons accuse Gorn (or whoever), Federation Condemns it, Klingons and Federation go to war...
True, it was cliche' but it still could have been a great story to develop.in STO.
So basically... the Klingons have been right every time when perceiving a threat...
Well not so much in the Dominion war, the threat was changeling Martok who pushed Gowron and the empire into blasting the Cardassians causing havoc in the alpha quadrant. It worked pretty well to since it drove the Cardassians into the Dominions arms and broke the Khitomer accords.
Well, if you accept the premise that the Undine Infiltration was the reason J'mpok and his Empire started a war with the Federation then he played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war that has weakened both sides.
Well, if you accept the premise that the Undine Infiltration was the reason J'mpok and his Empire started a war with the Federation then he played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war that has weakened both sides.
Well there could of been someone close to Jempok who was/is an undine that was pushing for the war like changeling Martok did to Gowron in ds9. We likely will never know though because cryptic don't seem to think very far or deeply about the storyline.
What the KDF needs is a new Super Ship to now counter the iconian threat. We have seen what they can do and must adapt! Maybe a new "revenge class" escort. Named for taking revenge on the killing the council.
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The Gorn and the Orion's still have factional problems, The Gorn were conquered by the KDF and that rubs alot of them raw, and many Orion's show little if any loyalty to the KDF.
Orions are very easy to understand. They're like Ferengi in that their primary loyalty is to money. that's why they allied with the Klingons in the first place.
Well, if you accept the premise that the Undine Infiltration was the reason J'mpok and his Empire started a war with the Federation then he played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war that has weakened both sides.
Well there could of been someone close to Jempok who was/is an undine that was pushing for the war like changeling Martok did to Gowron in ds9. We likely will never know though because cryptic don't seem to think very far or deeply about the storyline.
Actually going by the lore stuff released it's more likely that if anyone is an Undine its J'mpok seeing as 1) Martok's death was suspicious as heck, 2) One of the blogs released during the Dominion featured episodes said he was the sole reason the Klingon/Federation War was still going despite all the other major threats running around at the time.
Actually going by the lore stuff released it's more likely that if anyone is an Undine its J'mpok seeing as 1) Martok's death was suspicious as heck, 2) One of the blogs released during the Dominion featured episodes said he was the sole reason the Klingon/Federation War was still going despite all the other major threats running around at the time.
And Season 9 made it clear that this always was nothing more than player speculation and wishfull thinking.
Besides, as I explained in another thread - I suspect that Crytpic made the decision to kill off Martok and go with J'mpok due to having more liberty with how the develop and use his character in future storylines. With Martok, they could very possibly be tied in many aspects as what they can or can't do, overseen by CBS because it's a canon character. With J'mpok, a creation of their own, they can tailor his behavior, decisions, etc. as they wish.
Plus there is the possibility of them having to pay some sort of permission/liscence to use the actor's likeness throughout the game in the case of Martok.
And Season 9 made it clear that this always was nothing more than player speculation and wishfull thinking.
Besides, as I explained in another thread - I suspect that Crytpic made the decision to kill off Martok and go with J'mpok due to having more liberty with how the develop and use his character in future storylines. With Martok, they could very possibly be tied in many aspects as what they can or can't do, overseen by CBS because it's a canon character. With J'mpok, a creation of their own, they can tailor his behavior, decisions, etc. as they wish.
Plus there is the possibility of them having to pay some sort of permission/liscence to use the actor's likeness throughout the game in the case of Martok.
I figured it was more like seeing as Martok already lived through the last time the Klingons did stuff like this (though mostly in a Dominion prison camp) he would be the last guy to let history repeat itself.
Besides if they weren't allowed to derail canon characters they would have had Worf avenging Martok by saving the empire through cutting J'mpok's head off especially since Worf was discommendated the second time because he wouldn't follow Gowron when he tried to pull the same thing.
I figured it was more like seeing as Martok already lived through the last time the Klingons did stuff like this (though mostly in a Dominion prison camp) he would be the last guy to let history repeat itself.
As I said, there's a big chance they killed off Martok because of issues they might have with restrictions on how to use the character by CBS, or maybe having to pay for somekind of permission to the actor for using his likeness throughout the game. That's most likely the reason they didn't go with Data as Captain of the Enterprise, but invented Shon instead.
Remember, the entire storyline was conceived before Cryptic could even dream of having ST actors visit and work on homeages of the iconic characters on such regular basis as it has been lately.
As I said, there's a big chance they killed off Martok because of issues they might have with restrictions on how to use the character by CBS, or maybe having to pay for somekind of permission to the actor for using his likeness throughout the game. That's most likely the reason they didn't go with Data as Captain of the Enterprise, but invented Shon instead.
Remember, the entire storyline was conceived before Cryptic could even dream of having ST actors visit and work on homeages of the iconic characters on such regular basis as it has been lately.
But it still didn't stop them from 360ing Worf's previous position on conquering planets just becuase you think infiltrators are in power.
And no I doubt one of the Cardassian leaders actually being a Changeling would have changed his mind since the DS9 crew was sufficiently paranoid about the possibility to blood test all of them on the way back to DS9.
Which I think also addresses the idiocy of the Federation not conquering and subjugating planets = not taking the Undine seriously enough plot.
especially since seeing as the Klingons last tried to deal with an infiltration plan this way was becuase the empire had been infiltrated the federation could use that as proof of infiltration and consider it logical to invade and occupy Qo'nos.
A tad off track but I was playing my last character (fed engineer) and this time I paid attention to how many times you encounter the undine during the lead up to the newest FE.
twice in the Klingon arc. Once majorly in the Romulan arc. Twice in the Cardassian arc. Once in the borg arc.
That's six times a federation hero runs into the Undine. 4 of them they impersonate high level Federation personnel including a Vulcan Ambassador, a Human HIGH ranking Admiral, and twice as they took over a Federation Battleship, then attempted to take over DS9.
Yet the Federation does NOTHING. Just sweeps it under the rug until oh noes, one of the Dyson sphere's gets invaded. OH NOW suddenly we have to do something.
Not when a Vulcan ambassador is replaced, not when a Federation Admiral is replaced. Oh no, not till the dyson sphere and the holdings of the Federation are suddenly at stake, then we go "Oh oops you were right, we were wrong."
And the question is at what cost? How many thousands of lives on both sides were lost because the Federation just didn't want to own up to the truth?
Kinda sickening if ya ask me.
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But it still didn't stop them from 360ing Worf's previous position on conquering planets just becuase you think infiltrators are in power.
And no I doubt one of the Cardassian leaders actually being a Changeling would have changed his mind since the DS9 crew was sufficiently paranoid about the possibility to blood test all of them on the way back to DS9.
Which I think also addresses the idiocy of the Federation not conquering and subjugating planets = not taking the Undine seriously enough plot.
especially since seeing as the Klingons last tried to deal with an infiltration plan this way was becuase the empire had been infiltrated the federation could use that as proof of infiltration and consider it logical to invade and occupy Qo'nos.
I don't get it.
How does this have anything to do with what I said?
A tad off track but I was playing my last character (fed engineer) and this time I paid attention to how many times you encounter the undine during the lead up to the newest FE.
twice in the Klingon arc. Once majorly in the Romulan arc. Twice in the Cardassian arc. Once in the borg arc.
That's six times a federation hero runs into the Undine. 4 of them they impersonate high level Federation personnel including a Vulcan Ambassador, a Human HIGH ranking Admiral, and twice as they took over a Federation Battleship, then attempted to take over DS9.
Zelle was a Deltan.
Yet the Federation does NOTHING. Just sweeps it under the rug until oh noes, one of the Dyson sphere's gets invaded. OH NOW suddenly we have to do something.
Lets see the first time the federation follows up on the encounter leadind to the second and saving the Klingons butts.
The third was probably handled by either Starfleet Intelligence, the diplomats, or T'nae sending in a hit squad. So probably the hit squad considering how T'nae loves to stomp on whats left of the Romulan Star Empire as part of reminding them how pathetic they have become.
The fourth and fifth were probably followed up by Starfleet Intelligence.
And the last one the federation probably just let the Borg and Undine kill each other, plus they did try to seek a diplomatic solution after that one.
Besides its better than the Klingons plan of 1) Invade Federation, 2)???, 3) Undine defeated
Not when a Vulcan ambassador is replaced, not when a Federation Admiral is replaced. Oh no, not till the dyson sphere and the holdings of the Federation are suddenly at stake, then we go "Oh oops you were right, we were wrong."
Well considering there was an actually target to hit after they showed up in force...
And the question is at what cost? How many thousands of lives on both sides were lost because the Federation just didn't want to own up to the truth?
Kinda sickening if ya ask me.
So the federation should go about conquering the galaxy becuase there might be Undine on a planet, putting every faction at each others throats and weakening them all thus allowing the Undine to exterminate them all at their leisure.
Yeah, thats a brilliant planet there Napoleon :rolleyes:
Probably, probably, and maybe does not evidence make.
The fact is the Undine storyline in STO is full of glaring holes until it was needed for season 9.
We have no idea how the KDF would react in 2409 to the Undine threat because they where never given the storyline to follow up on in the game until it became a fed storyline issue.
CBS didn't stop Cryptic from giving Worf stupid pills, so why should they stop them from giving Martok heavier stupid pills
"Stupid pills" in your opinion, not in mine for ex., and aparently not in CBS-es as well.
Dan Stahl back when he was still the EP of STO has stated that while working on the new Klingon missions he had to obtain a special clearence from CBS for the direction he and the team wanted to make in terms of Worf and Alexander Rozhenko.
So CBS didn't stop it, probably because they felt it's fine, but they still needed to go through it and give that clearence without which those missions couldn't have been published.
Worf in STO is present - but apart from the starting KDF missions that were given a green flag and the "Sphere of Influence" in which Mr.Dorn was involved himself, he's a one-spinoff char in STO.
The Klingon Chancellor on the other hand is a central presence in the storyline and much more used in terms of everything going on in STO.
In regards to that, it's easier for a game studio like Cryptic that already has the liscence to the IP to create a new character like J'mpok or Shon, so they don't have to go through all the bureocracy channels and waiting to get stuff cleared of rejected every single time they add something new in the game. If they used Martok as Chancellor, they'd have to run to CBS about every single thing involving the Klingon Chancellor in STO and that can become tedious for them.
Lets see the first time the federation follows up on the encounter leadind to the second and saving the Klingons butts.
The third was probably handled by either Starfleet Intelligence, the diplomats, or T'nae sending in a hit squad. So probably the hit squad considering how T'nae loves to stomp on whats left of the Romulan Star Empire as part of reminding them how pathetic they have become.
The fourth and fifth were probably followed up by Starfleet Intelligence.
And the last one the federation probably just let the Borg and Undine kill each other, plus they did try to seek a diplomatic solution after that one.
Besides its better than the Klingons plan of 1) Invade Federation, 2)???, 3) Undine defeated
Well considering there was an actually target to hit after they showed up in force...
So the federation should go about conquering the galaxy becuase there might be Undine on a planet, putting every faction at each others throats and weakening them all thus allowing the Undine to exterminate them all at their leisure.
Yeah, thats a brilliant planet there Napoleon :rolleyes:
All of your replies completely miss the point. Good job there sport. I was talking about the reason behind the war.
J'mpoks went to war with the Federation because the Federation refused to do something about the undine threat. Threat was shown atleast 6 times. Federation didn't go "oh wait, Klingons are right, maybe we should admit it and maybe stop a war wasting all of our resources."
But no Federation intel "follows up" on it and nothing is done about the war. How you got "we should go conquer like Napoleon" out of all that, just shows me how blood thirsty YOU are. Itchy trigger finger there Captain?
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For clarity's sake the war with the feds was not just over the Undine but also that in the aftermath of the Hobus supernova the Klingon empire started reclaiming systems lost to the Romulan empire.
For clarity's sake the war with the feds was not just over the Undine but also that in the aftermath of the Hobus supernova the Klingon empire started reclaiming systems lost to the Romulan empire.
Considering the fact those systems were outside the Federation and the Romulan empire was in no way shape or form able to police that area, sorry I'd of stepped back and said "not my problem".
Something the current US Government could learn. And considering the fact the Federation had no alliance to stop the Klingons with the Romulans, why should the Federation have to step in?
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hreat was shown atleast 6 times. Federation didn't go "oh wait, Klingons are right, maybe we should admit it and maybe stop a war wasting all of our resources."
The federation tried to stop the war, B'vat showed up shot up the place, and then used a bunch of mad scientist stuff to keep the war going with a surprising amount of support from his fellow Klingon considering how freaking insane he obviously was.
Heck half the time the Klingon trying to do stuff other than kill feds was halfhearted at best and usually while still keeping the war going despite how pointless and idiotic the idea was while still attacking everyone else.
But no Federation intel "follows up" on it and nothing is done about the war.
Kind of hard to stop a war if the other side isn't interested in peace.
How you got "we should go conquer like Napoleon" out of all that, just shows me how blood thirsty YOU are. Itchy trigger finger there Captain?
Because thats what the Klingon's entire strategy is that if they suspect someone's planet has been infiltrated, then invade and conquer it.
Therefore if one is saying the Klingons were right, then it seems they would be agreeing with their chosen strategy of invading and conquering other planets.
Because I don't see the Klingons proposing another strategy in rooting them out.
Considering the fact those systems were outside the Federation and the Romulan empire was in no way shape or form able to police that area, sorry I'd of stepped back and said "not my problem".
Something the current US Government could learn. And considering the fact the Federation had no alliance to stop the Klingons with the Romulans, why should the Federation have to step in?
The feds are busy bodies who take interest in things even outside thier concern...???
Because I don't see the Klingons proposing another strategy in rooting them out.
What other alternative did the KDF have? Their own ally was unwilling to listen to reason even when presented with evidence of Undine infiltration of the alpha quadrant (path to 2409).
The Federation was unwilling to listen, the Romulans were splintered to the point of being unable to do anything if they wanted to thanks to Hobus. That meant the defence of the Alpha Quadrant fell to the KDF.
The federation tried to stop the war, B'vat showed up shot up the place, and then used a bunch of mad scientist stuff to keep the war going with a surprising amount of support from his fellow Klingon considering how freaking insane he obviously was.
Heck half the time the Klingon trying to do stuff other than kill feds was halfhearted at best and usually while still keeping the war going despite how pointless and idiotic the idea was while still attacking everyone else.
Because thats what the Klingon's entire strategy is that if they suspect someone's planet has been infiltrated, then invade and conquer it.
Therefore if one is saying the Klingons were right, then it seems they would be agreeing with their chosen strategy of invading and conquering other planets.
Because I don't see the Klingons proposing another strategy in rooting them out.
So the Federation lets 1 rogue ambassador uproot everything? wow...just wow. Sorry in this situation the Feds are not the knights in shining armor. They screwed up BY THE NUMBERS and only when their own interests where threatened (the Jenolan sphere) did they suddenly go "oh, ok maybe we should do something here."
Sorry letting the peace proposal be derailed by one deranged individual like B'Vat and more than likely the KDF was glad he was gone. Could of said "Hey we had an ambassador be replaced by Undine, you might be right, how bout a cease fire?" I am sure the KDF would of gone "BOUT TIME!!"
Sorry, feds were completely in the wrong from the get go.
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Honestly I think both sides were wrong. Both sides created this mess together equally.
The Federation was wrong and stupid to ignore the evidence of Undine Infiltration in the alpha quadrant, even when a Vulcan Ambassador and Zaelle (sp?) were discovered as Undine. But its also true they had no actual Undine target to strike at until the Jenolan sphere invasion. But I can't argue it was foolish to just sweep it all under the rug, especially when they infiltrated enough people to put DS9 at risk and steal a ship. Still, if the Klingons were placated by saying. "Okay you were right." That should have been done long ago.
But J'mpok and the Klingon Empire in general was just as stupid and wrong. They played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war with the Federation. It put former allies at their throats and wasted tons of lives and resources that could have otherwise been used to deal with the Borg or Undine. The Klingon Empire aided the Undine by starting a war.
The Klingons were right, but their methods are wrong. The whole Vulcan Ambassador mission is a fair case-in-point. A Klingon ship just shows up out of nowhere and tells your Captain that s/he has an Undine on their vessel. But when the Captain very reasonably asks for evidence, the Klingon just opens fire.
Not to mention they seemed perfectly happy to let B'Vat consort with a mad scientist hell bent on using augmenting which nearly destroyed the whole Klingon race a few centuries back. They didn't restrain him from attacking a peace conference, nor put a halt to his insane planet killer and time travel ideas.
I guess this is my long-winded away of saying that the mess of the war and the aftermath was equally the fault of both sides. We created this mess together.
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I Don't see how Surface Tension was "Good for the KDF" Yes Undine infiltration was real, but anyone who played the Fed story line to its completion could tell you that.
The Gorn and the Orion's still have factional problems, The Gorn were conquered by the KDF and that rubs alot of them raw, and many Orion's show little if any loyalty to the KDF. The great houses still infight even during a shooting war with a power that sends wave after wave of ships deep in the heart of Omega Leonis. Remember that little trick Drake pulled on you when you were chasing him?
Most of the high council were killed off.
Star Fleet rebuilt ESD bigger and shiner than ever. But just without a dance club, which attests to the large amount of resources the federation has at its disposal.
And lets no forget Shon brought an entire fleet of or starfleets hastily put together fleet to Qo'nos in what 15 minutes after an attack on ESD, With 5 core planets(Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar,Rigel, special mention to Alpha Centauri as Earths biggest colony) and hundreds of member worlds to defend. Penetrating deep into "Enemy Territory" and lets face the truth for the klinks Chain-of-Command follows Jayne Kobb's definition more than standard military practice.
So I don't doubt Shon probably had to run over the odd klink patrol that refused to let hem pass.
While I agree the Klinks didn't come off looking bad, the ain't reeking of victory either
Well the high council will be replaced by their successor from each house so that is not a major problem, we didn't lose the most important person on the council, J'empok. That would of screwed stability.
The other KDF races will come around in time, some are already assimilating into the culture, a shift this drastic is going to take time.
Qo'nos didn't seem to suffer anywhere near the damage that Earth did during the attack, likely because Qo'nos has better defences.
As for Shon he likely got through unhindered because plot reasons, he had to be their to be the hero and so on. Plus it was more a small taskforce than a fleet, I suspect that the core Federation words were not undefended.
The chain of command is highly structured just like Starfleet, as it has been mentioned before Klingons are not just pirates killing their superior officers on a whim.
If you think about it, its more or less a "copy/paste" of the Dominion War.
Klingons thought Cardassia was being controlled by a Changeling after the "Coup", which in turn prompted the whole withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and Klingons more or less going to war with the Federation.
Pretty much what happened in STO: Klingons accuse Gorn (or whoever), Federation Condemns it, Klingons and Federation go to war...
So basically... the Klingons have been right every time when perceiving a threat...
True, it was cliche' but it still could have been a great story to develop.in STO.
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Well not so much in the Dominion war, the threat was changeling Martok who pushed Gowron and the empire into blasting the Cardassians causing havoc in the alpha quadrant. It worked pretty well to since it drove the Cardassians into the Dominions arms and broke the Khitomer accords.
Well there could of been someone close to Jempok who was/is an undine that was pushing for the war like changeling Martok did to Gowron in ds9. We likely will never know though because cryptic don't seem to think very far or deeply about the storyline.
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Actually going by the lore stuff released it's more likely that if anyone is an Undine its J'mpok seeing as 1) Martok's death was suspicious as heck, 2) One of the blogs released during the Dominion featured episodes said he was the sole reason the Klingon/Federation War was still going despite all the other major threats running around at the time.
And Season 9 made it clear that this always was nothing more than player speculation and wishfull thinking.
Besides, as I explained in another thread - I suspect that Crytpic made the decision to kill off Martok and go with J'mpok due to having more liberty with how the develop and use his character in future storylines. With Martok, they could very possibly be tied in many aspects as what they can or can't do, overseen by CBS because it's a canon character. With J'mpok, a creation of their own, they can tailor his behavior, decisions, etc. as they wish.
Plus there is the possibility of them having to pay some sort of permission/liscence to use the actor's likeness throughout the game in the case of Martok.
I figured it was more like seeing as Martok already lived through the last time the Klingons did stuff like this (though mostly in a Dominion prison camp) he would be the last guy to let history repeat itself.
Besides if they weren't allowed to derail canon characters they would have had Worf avenging Martok by saving the empire through cutting J'mpok's head off especially since Worf was discommendated the second time because he wouldn't follow Gowron when he tried to pull the same thing.
As I said, there's a big chance they killed off Martok because of issues they might have with restrictions on how to use the character by CBS, or maybe having to pay for somekind of permission to the actor for using his likeness throughout the game. That's most likely the reason they didn't go with Data as Captain of the Enterprise, but invented Shon instead.
Remember, the entire storyline was conceived before Cryptic could even dream of having ST actors visit and work on homeages of the iconic characters on such regular basis as it has been lately.
But it still didn't stop them from 360ing Worf's previous position on conquering planets just becuase you think infiltrators are in power.
And no I doubt one of the Cardassian leaders actually being a Changeling would have changed his mind since the DS9 crew was sufficiently paranoid about the possibility to blood test all of them on the way back to DS9.
Which I think also addresses the idiocy of the Federation not conquering and subjugating planets = not taking the Undine seriously enough plot.
especially since seeing as the Klingons last tried to deal with an infiltration plan this way was becuase the empire had been infiltrated the federation could use that as proof of infiltration and consider it logical to invade and occupy Qo'nos.
twice in the Klingon arc. Once majorly in the Romulan arc. Twice in the Cardassian arc. Once in the borg arc.
That's six times a federation hero runs into the Undine. 4 of them they impersonate high level Federation personnel including a Vulcan Ambassador, a Human HIGH ranking Admiral, and twice as they took over a Federation Battleship, then attempted to take over DS9.
Yet the Federation does NOTHING. Just sweeps it under the rug until oh noes, one of the Dyson sphere's gets invaded. OH NOW suddenly we have to do something.
Not when a Vulcan ambassador is replaced, not when a Federation Admiral is replaced. Oh no, not till the dyson sphere and the holdings of the Federation are suddenly at stake, then we go "Oh oops you were right, we were wrong."
And the question is at what cost? How many thousands of lives on both sides were lost because the Federation just didn't want to own up to the truth?
Kinda sickening if ya ask me.
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I don't get it.
How does this have anything to do with what I said?
Zelle was a Deltan.
Lets see the first time the federation follows up on the encounter leadind to the second and saving the Klingons butts.
The third was probably handled by either Starfleet Intelligence, the diplomats, or T'nae sending in a hit squad. So probably the hit squad considering how T'nae loves to stomp on whats left of the Romulan Star Empire as part of reminding them how pathetic they have become.
The fourth and fifth were probably followed up by Starfleet Intelligence.
And the last one the federation probably just let the Borg and Undine kill each other, plus they did try to seek a diplomatic solution after that one.
Besides its better than the Klingons plan of 1) Invade Federation, 2)???, 3) Undine defeated
Well considering there was an actually target to hit after they showed up in force...
So the federation should go about conquering the galaxy becuase there might be Undine on a planet, putting every faction at each others throats and weakening them all thus allowing the Undine to exterminate them all at their leisure.
Yeah, thats a brilliant planet there Napoleon :rolleyes:
CBS didn't stop Cryptic from giving Worf stupid pills, so why should they stop them from giving Martok heavier stupid pills
The fact is the Undine storyline in STO is full of glaring holes until it was needed for season 9.
We have no idea how the KDF would react in 2409 to the Undine threat because they where never given the storyline to follow up on in the game until it became a fed storyline issue.
R.I.P
"Stupid pills" in your opinion, not in mine for ex., and aparently not in CBS-es as well.
Dan Stahl back when he was still the EP of STO has stated that while working on the new Klingon missions he had to obtain a special clearence from CBS for the direction he and the team wanted to make in terms of Worf and Alexander Rozhenko.
So CBS didn't stop it, probably because they felt it's fine, but they still needed to go through it and give that clearence without which those missions couldn't have been published.
Worf in STO is present - but apart from the starting KDF missions that were given a green flag and the "Sphere of Influence" in which Mr.Dorn was involved himself, he's a one-spinoff char in STO.
The Klingon Chancellor on the other hand is a central presence in the storyline and much more used in terms of everything going on in STO.
In regards to that, it's easier for a game studio like Cryptic that already has the liscence to the IP to create a new character like J'mpok or Shon, so they don't have to go through all the bureocracy channels and waiting to get stuff cleared of rejected every single time they add something new in the game. If they used Martok as Chancellor, they'd have to run to CBS about every single thing involving the Klingon Chancellor in STO and that can become tedious for them.
All of your replies completely miss the point. Good job there sport. I was talking about the reason behind the war.
J'mpoks went to war with the Federation because the Federation refused to do something about the undine threat. Threat was shown atleast 6 times. Federation didn't go "oh wait, Klingons are right, maybe we should admit it and maybe stop a war wasting all of our resources."
But no Federation intel "follows up" on it and nothing is done about the war. How you got "we should go conquer like Napoleon" out of all that, just shows me how blood thirsty YOU are. Itchy trigger finger there Captain?
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R.I.P
Considering the fact those systems were outside the Federation and the Romulan empire was in no way shape or form able to police that area, sorry I'd of stepped back and said "not my problem".
Something the current US Government could learn. And considering the fact the Federation had no alliance to stop the Klingons with the Romulans, why should the Federation have to step in?
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The federation tried to stop the war, B'vat showed up shot up the place, and then used a bunch of mad scientist stuff to keep the war going with a surprising amount of support from his fellow Klingon considering how freaking insane he obviously was.
Heck half the time the Klingon trying to do stuff other than kill feds was halfhearted at best and usually while still keeping the war going despite how pointless and idiotic the idea was while still attacking everyone else.
Because thats what the Klingon's entire strategy is that if they suspect someone's planet has been infiltrated, then invade and conquer it.
Therefore if one is saying the Klingons were right, then it seems they would be agreeing with their chosen strategy of invading and conquering other planets.
Because I don't see the Klingons proposing another strategy in rooting them out.
The feds are busy bodies who take interest in things even outside thier concern...???
R.I.P
What other alternative did the KDF have? Their own ally was unwilling to listen to reason even when presented with evidence of Undine infiltration of the alpha quadrant (path to 2409).
The Federation was unwilling to listen, the Romulans were splintered to the point of being unable to do anything if they wanted to thanks to Hobus. That meant the defence of the Alpha Quadrant fell to the KDF.
So the Federation lets 1 rogue ambassador uproot everything? wow...just wow. Sorry in this situation the Feds are not the knights in shining armor. They screwed up BY THE NUMBERS and only when their own interests where threatened (the Jenolan sphere) did they suddenly go "oh, ok maybe we should do something here."
Sorry letting the peace proposal be derailed by one deranged individual like B'Vat and more than likely the KDF was glad he was gone. Could of said "Hey we had an ambassador be replaced by Undine, you might be right, how bout a cease fire?" I am sure the KDF would of gone "BOUT TIME!!"
Sorry, feds were completely in the wrong from the get go.
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The Federation was wrong and stupid to ignore the evidence of Undine Infiltration in the alpha quadrant, even when a Vulcan Ambassador and Zaelle (sp?) were discovered as Undine. But its also true they had no actual Undine target to strike at until the Jenolan sphere invasion. But I can't argue it was foolish to just sweep it all under the rug, especially when they infiltrated enough people to put DS9 at risk and steal a ship. Still, if the Klingons were placated by saying. "Okay you were right." That should have been done long ago.
But J'mpok and the Klingon Empire in general was just as stupid and wrong. They played right into the Undine's hands by instigating a war with the Federation. It put former allies at their throats and wasted tons of lives and resources that could have otherwise been used to deal with the Borg or Undine. The Klingon Empire aided the Undine by starting a war.
The Klingons were right, but their methods are wrong. The whole Vulcan Ambassador mission is a fair case-in-point. A Klingon ship just shows up out of nowhere and tells your Captain that s/he has an Undine on their vessel. But when the Captain very reasonably asks for evidence, the Klingon just opens fire.
Not to mention they seemed perfectly happy to let B'Vat consort with a mad scientist hell bent on using augmenting which nearly destroyed the whole Klingon race a few centuries back. They didn't restrain him from attacking a peace conference, nor put a halt to his insane planet killer and time travel ideas.
I guess this is my long-winded away of saying that the mess of the war and the aftermath was equally the fault of both sides. We created this mess together.