Testing and evidence? Doesn't even sound like fun...
And, why is it everyone on the forums (okay, not everyone, but so many) assumes everyone else is arguing with them? I was merely stating the concept behind a random-number-generated chance, by the way...
I still like my tetryon beams...
CM
"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure science." - Edwin Hubble
I like em as well, but it doesnt mean that i feel im firing my target with an holographic beam... (you know, holographic weapons deals minimum damage..).
Yet the best thing about tetryon weapons is they are cheap. People who have night crit chance, 25%+ might be able to find critdx3 weapons cheap. There is only one way to make tetryon weapons viable and that is to make the proc non resistible. Destabilized should also not be able to be cleared. Also anyone counting on procs for their weapons should consider changing their build. The only weapons type that is viable to build around is polaron, and drain builds, still I don't ever count on the proc.
Either way running critdx3 is cheap band for the buck tetryon are a viable option only for cheap builds with high crit chance.
Just look at the exchange a Romulan can get crit chance as high as 37% chance. So one of every three shots crit, now you add critdx3 of 60% and the DHC bonus of 10% and you are looking at plus 70% damage every third hit. Don't build your ship around weapons procs, build them around weapons modifiers.
Testing and evidence? Doesn't even sound like fun...
And, why is it everyone on the forums (okay, not everyone, but so many) assumes everyone else is arguing with them? I was merely stating the concept behind a random-number-generated chance, by the way...
I still like my tetryon beams...
CM
I didn’t assume you are arguing I just think your example was flawed.
“The crazy thing about chance is... it's a chance. You may have a 50% chance of tossing a "head" on a fair coin, but you can toss it 10 times and wind up with 9 tails. A tetryon weapon might have a 10% proc chance, but in 1000 shots, it might proc once...”
The thing is you have a 50% chance of getting a proc per volley with an Avenger. So that’s kind of like saying you flip a coin 1000 times and only get heads once and tails 999 times. Sure it might happen but it’s more likely you have a broken unbalanced coin. Or to put it another way without FaW on an Avenger you expect to on average see 1 proc per 10 seconds or 360 procs per hour. So after 1 hour testing 1 proc suggests something is broken.
Anyway I find testing and evidence fun so based on what’s said here I am going to see if there was a stealth patch and I missed the fix.
EDIT:
Just did a quick test with Polarized dual Tetryons and they appear to still be completely broken and useless. Got a grand total of 3 procs during testing which is worse than basic Tetryons. Polarized Tetryons are by far the worst Tetryons to use. They have lower raw damage, lower proc chance, lower shield drain and take much longer to grind to get a set. Considering the amount of time it takes to get a set of them they are useless. You may as well buy basic Tetryons on the exchange which are better in every way.
I spent a multi currency fortune on a tetryon build. Lobi Sniper, Hirogen Console, Nukara Beam Bank & Dbb, Phased, Piercing, Fleet, got a set of each. Tet glider, 4 +pla flow cap consoles, 4 spire tet consoles, Stuck it all on a Khyzon, with traits and skills fully optimized for DPS and Drain.
I was so sure all the hate was just hyperbole. Surely, properly applied, they would have a job to do. How do you think it went?
It was worthless. In ~40 days of flying that massive boondoggle, I got 0 kills in kerrat. Even in furballs.
Biggest waste of time, math, and money in this game to date.
I went back to my polaron-rainbow JHDC and never looked back upon those dark days.
I spent a multi currency fortune on a tetryon build. Lobi Sniper, Hirogen Console, Nukara Beam Bank & Dbb, Phased, Piercing, Fleet, got a set of each. Tet glider, 4 +pla flow cap consoles, 4 spire tet consoles, Stuck it all on a Khyzon, with traits and skills fully optimized for DPS and Drain.
I was so sure all the hate was just hyperbole. Surely, properly applied, they would have a job to do. How do you think it went?
It was worthless. In ~40 days of flying that massive boondoggle, I got 0 kills in kerrat. Even in furballs.
Biggest waste of time, math, and money in this game to date.
I went back to my polaron-rainbow JHDC and never looked back upon those dark days.
You're comparing apples to moon rocks at that point.
Proper testing would be same ship, same build, different weapon type.
Obviously with set bonuses and a few consoles linked to certain weapon types, you can't do a 100% clean comparison unless you ditch the gimmicks and run a straight DPS build with no weapon-type bonuses.
But comparing a tetryon-equipped Andorian escort to a polaron-equipped JHDC and blaming tetryon for the lack of kills is like driving a Ferrari and a Ford Focus and blaming the windshield wipers for the Focus being slower.
At that point, you really don't know what the lack of kills was from. I can take a guess (getting popped like a balloon while in a glass cannon), but neither one of us really knows how much tetryon is to blame, or not, until you test that same Khyzon side-by-side with a different weapon type (possibly your favored polaron) on a build with no gimmicks, and then again with the exact same build, except tetryon.\
Or throw tetryon on your JHDC, but make sure it's got the same weapon-type bonuses you have now.
Or just do another test with something generic like an Sovvy or an Excelsior. Side-by-side, no weapon-type bonuses on either, no gimmicks.
You're comparing apples to moon rocks at that point.
Proper testing would be same ship, same build, different weapon type.
Obviously with set bonuses and a few consoles linked to certain weapon types, you can't do a 100% clean comparison unless you ditch the gimmicks and run a straight DPS build with no weapon-type bonuses.
But comparing a tetryon-equipped Andorian escort to a polaron-equipped JHDC and blaming tetryon for the lack of kills is like driving a Ferrari and a Ford Focus and blaming the windshield wipers for the Focus being slower.
At that point, you really don't know what the lack of kills was from. I can take a guess (getting popped like a balloon while in a glass cannon), but neither one of us really knows how much tetryon is to blame, or not, until you test that same Khyzon side-by-side with a different weapon type (possibly your favored polaron) on a build with no gimmicks, and then again with the exact same build, except tetryon.\
Or throw tetryon on your JHDC, but make sure it's got the same weapon-type bonuses you have now.
Or just do another test with something generic like an Sovvy or an Excelsior. Side-by-side, no weapon-type bonuses on either, no gimmicks.
I want you to go back and read both posts really well this time.
You're telling me that I made a build optimized for proc and damage output of the damage type, found it ineffective at either even when optimized, and did something wrong?
To put it in simpler, bad english, even when weapon-ed to the maximum amount of weapon, the weapon still failed to weapon at all.
This ship was no glass cannon. It was a glass pen knife. Even when lined up for an alpha strike from the hirogen cannon blast, with that full damage and flow cap spec combo, it would do maybe half a shield facing on an enemy ship? It was astoundingly bad.
You're comparing apples to moon rocks at that point.
Proper testing would be same ship, same build, different weapon type.
.
I dont think he should do a lot of tests. If with all the sets and things he tried, he didnt get the feeling of tetryons being good, its useless to do a lot of tests. You can see if any weapon type is useful just using a full pack of tac consoles and nothing more. If you cant even start to feel that using the items he said.. i dont think more test will change too much.
Biggest reason NOT to use Tetryons. Most NPCs don't redistribute shields effectively. They may do it once in a while, but not nearly as well as a player making effective use of TT. Usually if you can get a facing down it is gone... and when the shields are down the Tet proc becomes useless.
IMO, tet is very useful for crusiers or sci ships that would never be able to melt shields that fast otherwise. Mix it with chroniton, plasma, or plasma disruptors, and the effect will be similar to that of a sniper rifle.
The best part is, the cmbo works with weapons of any XI rarity, and you'll be a freakin' menace to anything that flies.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "That is truly amazing. That is so amazingly amazing, I'd like to steal it." - Zaphod Beeblebrox
I popped into this thread hoping to hear some good news about Tetryon weapons. I've always liked their FX (sound and visuals) and having seen that recently there are now several types, I was considering trying out another Tet build...
For me, subjectively, I'll note that I made an sci-scort some time ago, had it loaded up with very rare Mk XI (or better) gear... I'm not the best min/maxer, but I'm above average. I had what should have been a pretty good PvE build. And while I really loved the FX of the Tets, and I had a great/fitting name (USS Fulgora), that ship stank. In PvE easy "daily" stuff (not even STFs), I'd have to make 2-3 attack runs to destroy frigate-level NPCs. It was terrible.
I put on common level phasers and matching tac consoles. And the ship seemed to improve. I moved on to other builds later...
Anyway, sorry to hear Tets are still the worst available. Though, I suppose as others have posted, in this game if you can steamroll the PvE content I play with pretty much anything. lol :P
I'm telling you that you used two completely different ships, and that's not a proper comparison of damage types.
Build the same ship with the same general type of build, but with two different weapon types. Then see if there's a difference.
All you're doing at this point is comparing two vastly different builds on two vastly different ships which HAPPEN to use two different damage types.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I was reflecting on the tetryon build's ability to put out damage independently.
I just mentioned the JH build because, in a comparison of utility/contribution to a team, it proved to be infinitely more valuable and satisfying to field.
Tet build: Expensive and useless
JH Build: where I came from and not useless.
That's the extent of the comparison being made here. Of course I wouldn't bother saying the JH build is better at doing dps. I guess I could make a polaron khyzon build if you really want me to, that could be interesting, I've got half the parts lying around already. Eh.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I was reflecting on the tetryon build's ability to put out damage independently.
I just mentioned the JH build because, in a comparison of utility/contribution to a team, it proved to be infinitely more valuable and satisfying to field.
Tet build: Expensive and useless
JH Build: where I came from and not useless.
That's the extent of the comparison being made here. Of course I wouldn't bother saying the JH build is better at doing dps. I guess I could make a polaron khyzon build if you really want me to, that could be interesting, I've got half the parts lying around already. Eh.
So, did you either:
a) Try the JHDC with tetryon, or
b) Try the Khyzon with your preferred build?
If not, then you haven't tested adequately.
A real test involves having only one difference between the "control" and the item being tested.
So without such a real test, your observation is meaningless, as there are FAR too many differences between the two ships/builds/damage types to say which one (or many) thing(s) is/are the reason you got no kills.
And just saying "tetryon is useless" is merely pissing in the wind without a proper test.
a) Try the JHDC with tetryon, or
b) Try the Khyzon with your preferred build?
If not, then you haven't tested adequately.
A real test involves having only one difference between the "control" and the item being tested.
So without such a real test, your observation is meaningless, as there are FAR too many differences between the two ships/builds/damage types to say which one (or many) thing(s) is/are the reason you got no kills.
And just saying "tetryon is useless" is merely pissing in the wind without a proper test.
Why are you so fixated on a comparison between these two unrelated builds? That wasn't my message, nor was I randomly saying "tets r bad mmkay?"
My contribution was my experience, which I will lay out for you as simply as possible.
Step 1) I decided I would try trets, because I was already specced into max energy damage and flow caps from my polaron build anyway
step 2) I researched and acquired every item, set bonus, and trait that would buff the damage or its proc.
step 3) I assembled a ship built around putting out the absolute maximum amount of both tet proc and damage from a single un-supported source available in game. There would never be an instance in the game, possible at this current point in time, where more tetryon weapon damage and stronger tetryon procs could be put out simultaneously by a single ship than this build offered. +tet +drain was literally maxed.
step 4) this damage was shrugged off in pvp scenarios because the proc was worthless in a world of a thousand shield heals, and when it did get a facing down, damage output massively dropped off because that shield proc had nothing more to contribute to the battle at that point, unlike every other proc in game which is useful for more than the opening phase of an attack.
step 5) the enemies i targeted eventually noticed the growing pile of marshmallows at their feet I had been throwing at them, gathered them all up into a pillowcase, beat me unconscious with it, shoved all the marshmallows down my mouth as ballast, and threw my body in a river.
step 6)?????
step 7) profit
There was no comparison needed. I made a proof of concept. I made a pure build catering to everything tetryon is, and tetryon failed like one of those 67-winged biplanes you see in stock video collections about how stupid people in the past were.
IMO, tet is very useful for crusiers or sci ships that would never be able to melt shields that fast otherwise.
You dont get it. Even using just phasers you will draing your target's shields faster. There is no point on using tetryon, not at all. I also tried with the nukara set and the apex predator one. Plus consoles of course. Nothing. I do 200% more damage to shields just using the phasers of my dyson destroyer.. :cool:
I always thought that i was missing something, because it was ridiculous, but hm i dont think so.
Biggest waste of time, math, and money in this game to date.
Your mistake was wasting a ton of money. If you waste a ton of money, you are missing the point. The point of Tetryon is that it is an unpopular energy type with a pretty meh proc. But 97.5% of the time, it works exactly the same as anything else...and high-quality Tetryon and Tetryon Accessories can be had from the Exchange for dirt. The point of Tetryon isn't that it's good. The point of Tetryon is that it's cheap, and 97.5% as good as anything else. In PvP, it might even be better: AP, Disruptor, and Plasma, these are all overused energy types that are comprehensively covered under the ubiquitous ResB. Tetryon is a ResA type and will thus burn through all those EFS ResBs like nobody's business. Of course, so will lolaron and phaser...
Your mistake was wasting a ton of money. If you waste a ton of money, you are missing the point. The point of Tetryon is that it is an unpopular energy type with a pretty meh proc. But 97.5% of the time, it works exactly the same as anything else...and high-quality Tetryon and Tetryon Accessories can be had from the Exchange for dirt. The point of Tetryon isn't that it's good. The point of Tetryon is that it's cheap, and 97.5% as good as anything else. In PvP, it might even be better: AP, Disruptor, and Plasma, these are all overused energy types that are comprehensively covered under the ubiquitous ResB. Tetryon is a ResA type and will thus burn through all those EFS ResBs like nobody's business. Of course, so will lolaron and phaser...
I see what you're saying, but it kind of proves my point. This is the only weapon in the arsenal quantitatively inferior to all alternatives, so much to the point that players don't even bother cultivating resistance against it.
It's the only weapon type with a proc that, at a point in the battle, becomes useless.
Even if it did burn through the resb's, according to your strategy it'd do so slowly because
-I would've picked up dirt-cheap low quality parts instead of standardized fleet components
-the average player has a massive counter (TT) on constantly
-those stupid shields that should never have existed in the first place have the ability to adapt
-there's more abilities available to players that negate the effects of this proc than any other weapons proc in game.
Your conclusion is correct, I'd be better off with phasers or polarons. Both of those will actually have a detrimental weakening effect on my target, disabling the speed defense, shields or aux-based healing, or weakening the speed defense, shields regen/hardness or aux based healing, whereas tet would just get the shields down and then be like "Ok, now what?" just in time for the shields to be fully repaired.
Tets in the current build will always be a bad move. There's better weapons for support roles, there's better weapons for DPS guys. These things should either be avoided or somehow rethought.
I see what you're saying, but it kind of proves my point. This is the only weapon in the arsenal quantitatively inferior to all alternatives, so much to the point that players don't even bother cultivating resistance against it.
Actually, it's just because the ResB shield covers you against far more of what is commonly encountered both in PvE and PvP. AP, Disruptor, Plasma...this pretty much covers you against the entire gamut of serious end-game enemies in PvE, and a fair share of what occurs in PvP. Tetryon, as a ResA weapon, just happens to slip through the gaps alongside the rest of the A-types.
-the average player has a massive counter (TT) on constantly
-those stupid shields that should never have existed in the first place have the ability to adapt
These things uniformly punish all weapons, so this is not a problem intrinsic to Tetryon.
Your conclusion is correct, I'd be better off with phasers or polarons.
Indeed, Phaser and Polaroid are both ResA weapons capable of working around the ubiquity of ResB shielding...Polaroid is often even cheap, albeit not as cheap as Tetryon.
Tets in the current build will always be a bad move. There's better weapons for support roles, there's better weapons for DPS guys. These things should either be avoided or somehow rethought.
Well, it's certainly less than optimal, but it does have the advantage of being reliably cheap.
In my opinion Tetryon weapons are FAIL. I've got 'em on my DN. But they just don't do any damage. So as soon as possible I'l replace them. No more Tetryons for me. I've got all the consoles, that should make them more powerful, but they just don't do any damage. Tho I lkie their colour and sound effects, but this is all there is of them. It's like shooting enemies with phaser banks MK I.
Actually, it's just because the ResB shield covers you against far more of what is commonly encountered both in PvE and PvP. AP, Disruptor, Plasma...this pretty much covers you against the entire gamut of serious end-game enemies in PvE, and a fair share of what occurs in PvP. Tetryon, as a ResA weapon, just happens to slip through the gaps alongside the rest of the A-types.
At the point where your opponent runs out of shields, PvP-wise, he tends to die quickly and violently regardless of the energy type.
But that's the thing: With Tetryon, dirt cheap HIGH quality parts can be had.
These things uniformly punish all weapons, so this is not a problem intrinsic to Tetryon.
Indeed, Phaser and Polaroid are both ResA weapons capable of working around the ubiquity of ResB shielding...Polaroid is often even cheap, albeit not as cheap as Tetryon.
Well, it's certainly less than optimal, but it does have the advantage of being reliably cheap.
I still haven't masted splitting quotes like that, so bear with me...
-It was a really poor choice to lump all of those damage types into one category, but here we are...
-Here's the situation though: In any scenario, when you're firing at an enemy and their shields go down, with any weapon other than tetryon, you're at least keeping up the "hurt." Phasers will still degrade their situation, so will polarons, disruptors, ap, plasma, whereas tets just stop. Tetryon weapons have a drop off in effective applicable pressure that no other weapon faces. Even if you argue they could more effectively combat recovery of target's shields, so could every other proc, on top of its other effects. These weapons are completely outmoded by every other weapon type here.
-Building off this, what happens on the enemy's side when you've procced their shields down? Yes, they're all easily cleared, but there's more raw shield heal abilities available to players than there are subsystem repair, cleanse, or hull repair abilities, possibly even combined. So your tetryons don't only just stop being effective once the shields go down, but your target's more likely to have a way to nullify that proc's effect that's not on cooldown.
-I would disagree. Polaron will weaken shield hardness and regen, or restorative heals. Phasers will turn either of them off. Disruptors will debuff the shields. These two very common counters (TT and adaptive shields) work more effectively against tetryon than any other damage type. While the other types of damage decrease the effectiveness of shielding, Tet proc only strips shields, and these countermeasures stretch shields.
-Even then, they're less effective than standardly priced parts. Considering you're already fighting uphill because of what I've mentioned above, saving a couple million on a MK 12 Blue instead of going for an up to par fleet part is going to have a more tangible effect. You might save some pretend money, but you're going to be spending it on pretend repairs and funerals later. I get the argument that for an entry level player who's running stock shipyard parts somehow, yes, tets are better than that, but to insinuate that their value is the ability to make a cheaper pvp build that can still be cost effective, well... No. Cost-benefit isn't there in that scenario. You get what you pay for in this case. You might narrow the gap, but you still won't make the leap.
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm just trying to underline the scope of the problem here. But this is the point we're at.
If we had a battlegroup of ships, all things equal- same weapons, skills, and loadouts, only changing the energy types, assuming 100% chance to proc, no crits, and a flat standard amount of damage output, all shooting at identical targets... The tetryon ship's target is going to die last every time. It might be neck and neck with the polaron ship, but polaron has the edge because the power decrease effects regen and hardness, so your damage will ramp up while tet stays the same. Even if we allowed all the targets to use the same pool of healing powers and cleanses with intelligent prioritization, the tetryon ship would still come in last place, and with the polaron now able to affect heal effectiveness too, the gap actually increases. So against better enemies, second-to-last place actually becomes more useful, while last place becomes less so.
If we had a battlegroup of ships, all things equal- same weapons, skills, and loadouts, only changing the energy types, assuming 100% chance to proc, no crits, and a flat standard amount of damage output, all shooting at identical targets... The tetryon ship's target is going to die last every time. It might be neck and neck with the polaron ship, but polaron has the edge because the power decrease effects regen and hardness, so your damage will ramp up while tet stays the same. Even if we allowed all the targets to use the same pool of healing powers and cleanses with intelligent prioritization, the tetryon ship would still come in last place, and with the polaron now able to affect heal effectiveness too, the gap actually increases. So against better enemies, second-to-last place actually becomes more useful, while last place becomes less so.
All this is quite possibly true, yet the Tetryon ship costs you a tenth of what a more expensive boat would cost you. Can you take on ten such boats, which I can field for the cost of one non-Tetryon boat?
All this is quite possibly true, yet the Tetryon ship costs you a tenth of what a more expensive boat would cost you. Can you take on ten such boats, which I can field for the cost of one non-Tetryon boat?
10's a bit unrealistic, probably more like 3-6, but I'll play along...
Assuming access to unlimited resources a-la the "I need guns" scene in the Matrix, perhaps.
passive Reflects, Placates, Heals or Drains from sets, fleet consoles, and doffs on a tanky enough ship could well nullify that threat long enough to rack up at least one kill. It'd be a race downhill. Could I neutralize your damage output by debuffing and killing your weaker ships faster than they could whittle me down?
Plasmonic leech polaron or voth AP + 4 embassy flow cap passive shield heals or + shield heals depending on the weapon type, drain diplomat doffs, HG shield, placate entertainer doffs, A2B SS, RSP, APD3. Can't decide on other doffs or the set bonuses or if I'd go for +evasion or +res in my engineering consoles off the top of my head, I'd have to spend a couple hours on the wiki. Couple this with fleet-grade modifiers...
The longer I stay alive, the higher my chances of surviving.
Meh.
In this fantastic ultra unlikely to happen situation where I've been given a blank check to make a ship designed to a tank a fleet of ten ships outfitted with optimized tetryon parts for the exact same amount as my bottom line, then I'd say it's likely there's a pilot smart enough to round out and keybind the ship into living.
passive Reflects, Placates, Heals or Drains from sets, fleet consoles, and doffs on a tanky enough ship could well nullify that threat long enough to rack up at least one kill. It'd be a race downhill. Could I neutralize your damage output by debuffing and killing your weaker ships faster than they could whittle me down?
Very unlikely, since if there are 10 guys on you, they can bleed you completely dry and leave you dead in space while they pick you apart with their procless Tetryon guns because you don't have shields anymore. There isn't actually any serious way to win 10v1 against people who have even the slightest clue what they're doing. There's just not that much win to pay for.
Obviously, this is a thoroughly unrealistic scenario to begin with. The point is, I can field a ship maybe 97.5% as good as yours for a fraction of the budget. Because when you fire your gun, only 2.5% of the time does anything actually happen that makes Tetryon different from Some Other Energy Type. The rest of the time, I cause damage, the same damage as you, and nothing interesting happens.
The Bottom Line: Tetryon procs are pretty junk. This makes Tetryon hella-cheap and high levels of performance can be achieved without a budget the size of Jedinikon's.
Talking about shield downs...When I started playing this game (eons ago) I had tetryon weapons
[Borg] which I rarely used. I still have them and one set of the old plain tets. The reason for this is that I loved using the Dominion Polarons. I guess the success came from the fact that when enhancing the Polarons with their respective Tac Consoles, it not only enhanced the damage of the Polarons but also increased their shield depleting procs. Also using the J'HSet increased both of them further. I still use them but for other reasons. It's a pity that Cryptic while enhancing the J'H ground/space set, they didn't update the Dominion weapons.
I suppose the success of the Dom Pol Beams/Cannons was that while they took the shields down they also got through to the hull with the polaron part of the weapon. Tetryon weapons need torpedoes to take advantage of the shield condition of the target. Also you need a Overloaded Tet Beam Bank up front firing to clear the shields facing as your torps take off. With a setup similar to this and well practiced you can do fairly well (even in PVP) against a ship with average Hull specs. Don't try this on an Obelisk and expect to finish him off...you will have to slug it out, but take note that this would apply to any other weapon.
To tell you honestly, if Cryptic, by some miracle of fate, upgraded the Dom Pols to Mk XII as they are presently spec'd, I would be the first in line to buy them.
-the average player has a massive counter (TT) on constantly
-there's more abilities available to players that negate the effects of this proc than any other weapons proc in game.
I only have something useful to add on two parts of that, so that's what I quoted...
TT constantly redistributes shields, meaning that you are using all shield facings at once against any damage directed at any given shield facing. This translates into an increase to the effectiveness of the Tetryon proc, since it affects all shield facings at once. It's still useless once the shields are down, but while the shields are up TT actually quadruples the relative benefit of the drain against the facing you are shooting at rather than making Tetryons less desirable.
The latter is more of an issue, and the whole no shields = no proc thing. Significant enough that you really are at a small disadvantage against someone of equivalent equipment quality. The thing to remember, though, is the cost. You can field a solid payload for a very small portion of the cost of other damage types, simply because the proc is so meh. I usually run Tetryons for my recent level 50's until I can upgrade to Fleet quality equipment, for the simple reason that I can afford better weapons in Tetryon than any other damage type. Since Fleet gear costs the same regardless of damage type, when you start on that switching damage type then isn't a bad plan.
Anywho... Tetryons are great from cost perspective, just slightly lower quality than an equivalent weapon of another type; think of them as starter gear and upgrade to something else once you can buy the Fleet consoles and whatnot.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
I only have something useful to add on two parts of that, so that's what I quoted...
TT constantly redistributes shields, meaning that you are using all shield facings at once against any damage directed at any given shield facing. This translates into an increase to the effectiveness of the Tetryon proc, since it affects all shield facings at once. It's still useless once the shields are down, but while the shields are up TT actually quadruples the relative benefit of the drain against the facing you are shooting at rather than making Tetryons less desirable.
The latter is more of an issue, and the whole no shields = no proc thing. Significant enough that you really are at a small disadvantage against someone of equivalent equipment quality. The thing to remember, though, is the cost. You can field a solid payload for a very small portion of the cost of other damage types, simply because the proc is so meh. I usually run Tetryons for my recent level 50's until I can upgrade to Fleet quality equipment, for the simple reason that I can afford better weapons in Tetryon than any other damage type. Since Fleet gear costs the same regardless of damage type, when you start on that switching damage type then isn't a bad plan.
Anywho... Tetryons are great from cost perspective, just slightly lower quality than an equivalent weapon of another type; think of them as starter gear and upgrade to something else once you can buy the Fleet consoles and whatnot.
I see why you would think that about tac team, let me try to explain it better.
If you're shooting phasers/polarons/disruptors at a ship with permaTT, any proc is going to decrease the effectiveness of those shields. It'll shut them off or it'll weaken them depending on the proc.
However, the tet proc is just going to eat more shields, which will just keep coming. So while the other procs allow you an opportunity to bypass TT, tet plays by the rules and loses the advantage because of that.
I see why you would think that about tac team, let me try to explain it better.
If you're shooting phasers/polarons/disruptors at a ship with permaTT, any proc is going to decrease the effectiveness of those shields. It'll shut them off or it'll weaken them depending on the proc.
However, the tet proc is just going to eat more shields, which will just keep coming. So while the other procs allow you an opportunity to bypass TT, tet plays by the rules and loses the advantage because of that.
but how much advantage are we talking about? once again: the effect of the procs, be it phaser, plasma, disruptor or tetryon is so tiny, even with the appropriate skill maxed out, that it won't matter.
If it takes 3 bursts to kill a single borg sphere in an elite STF, it will take 3 bursts with whatever weapon you're using.
But 97.5% of the time, it works exactly the same as anything else...and high-quality Tetryon and Tetryon Accessories can be had from the Exchange for dirt. The point of Tetryon isn't that it's good. The point of Tetryon is that it's cheap, and 97.5% as good as anything else. In PvP, it might even be better: AP, Disruptor, and Plasma, these are all overused energy types that are comprehensively covered under the ubiquitous ResB. Tetryon is a ResA type and will thus burn through all those EFS ResBs like nobody's business. Of course, so will lolaron and phaser...
I completely disagree. ITs far from being exactly the same as any other weapon. That is what i thought at the beginning, but i was completely mistaken. The damage output is ridiculous , no matter what. PVP is dead so, we are not talking about pvp. Tetryon is cheap because it is the most useless weapon type in the game. You will get 100% more drops of tetryon stuff than anything else, there is a reason for that.
I personally im tired of trying to make use of a tetryon build, i gave up time ago. Its a waste of time lol.
The way to make Tetryon useful is to have the proc increase the regen delay. Then you could blast through shields like normal and keep them down longer, providing a larger opportunity window for burst shots (ie torps, BO, whatever).
Comments
Testing and evidence? Doesn't even sound like fun...
And, why is it everyone on the forums (okay, not everyone, but so many) assumes everyone else is arguing with them? I was merely stating the concept behind a random-number-generated chance, by the way...
I still like my tetryon beams...
CM
I like em as well, but it doesnt mean that i feel im firing my target with an holographic beam... (you know, holographic weapons deals minimum damage..).
Either way running critdx3 is cheap band for the buck tetryon are a viable option only for cheap builds with high crit chance.
Just look at the exchange a Romulan can get crit chance as high as 37% chance. So one of every three shots crit, now you add critdx3 of 60% and the DHC bonus of 10% and you are looking at plus 70% damage every third hit. Don't build your ship around weapons procs, build them around weapons modifiers.
I didn’t assume you are arguing I just think your example was flawed.
“The crazy thing about chance is... it's a chance. You may have a 50% chance of tossing a "head" on a fair coin, but you can toss it 10 times and wind up with 9 tails. A tetryon weapon might have a 10% proc chance, but in 1000 shots, it might proc once...”
The thing is you have a 50% chance of getting a proc per volley with an Avenger. So that’s kind of like saying you flip a coin 1000 times and only get heads once and tails 999 times. Sure it might happen but it’s more likely you have a broken unbalanced coin. Or to put it another way without FaW on an Avenger you expect to on average see 1 proc per 10 seconds or 360 procs per hour. So after 1 hour testing 1 proc suggests something is broken.
Anyway I find testing and evidence fun so based on what’s said here I am going to see if there was a stealth patch and I missed the fix.
EDIT:
Just did a quick test with Polarized dual Tetryons and they appear to still be completely broken and useless. Got a grand total of 3 procs during testing which is worse than basic Tetryons. Polarized Tetryons are by far the worst Tetryons to use. They have lower raw damage, lower proc chance, lower shield drain and take much longer to grind to get a set. Considering the amount of time it takes to get a set of them they are useless. You may as well buy basic Tetryons on the exchange which are better in every way.
I was so sure all the hate was just hyperbole. Surely, properly applied, they would have a job to do. How do you think it went?
It was worthless. In ~40 days of flying that massive boondoggle, I got 0 kills in kerrat. Even in furballs.
Biggest waste of time, math, and money in this game to date.
I went back to my polaron-rainbow JHDC and never looked back upon those dark days.
Proper testing would be same ship, same build, different weapon type.
Obviously with set bonuses and a few consoles linked to certain weapon types, you can't do a 100% clean comparison unless you ditch the gimmicks and run a straight DPS build with no weapon-type bonuses.
But comparing a tetryon-equipped Andorian escort to a polaron-equipped JHDC and blaming tetryon for the lack of kills is like driving a Ferrari and a Ford Focus and blaming the windshield wipers for the Focus being slower.
At that point, you really don't know what the lack of kills was from. I can take a guess (getting popped like a balloon while in a glass cannon), but neither one of us really knows how much tetryon is to blame, or not, until you test that same Khyzon side-by-side with a different weapon type (possibly your favored polaron) on a build with no gimmicks, and then again with the exact same build, except tetryon.\
Or throw tetryon on your JHDC, but make sure it's got the same weapon-type bonuses you have now.
Or just do another test with something generic like an Sovvy or an Excelsior. Side-by-side, no weapon-type bonuses on either, no gimmicks.
I want you to go back and read both posts really well this time.
You're telling me that I made a build optimized for proc and damage output of the damage type, found it ineffective at either even when optimized, and did something wrong?
To put it in simpler, bad english, even when weapon-ed to the maximum amount of weapon, the weapon still failed to weapon at all.
This ship was no glass cannon. It was a glass pen knife. Even when lined up for an alpha strike from the hirogen cannon blast, with that full damage and flow cap spec combo, it would do maybe half a shield facing on an enemy ship? It was astoundingly bad.
Build the same ship with the same general type of build, but with two different weapon types. Then see if there's a difference.
All you're doing at this point is comparing two vastly different builds on two vastly different ships which HAPPEN to use two different damage types.
I dont think he should do a lot of tests. If with all the sets and things he tried, he didnt get the feeling of tetryons being good, its useless to do a lot of tests. You can see if any weapon type is useful just using a full pack of tac consoles and nothing more. If you cant even start to feel that using the items he said.. i dont think more test will change too much.
The best part is, the cmbo works with weapons of any XI rarity, and you'll be a freakin' menace to anything that flies.
"That is truly amazing. That is so amazingly amazing, I'd like to steal it." - Zaphod Beeblebrox
For me, subjectively, I'll note that I made an sci-scort some time ago, had it loaded up with very rare Mk XI (or better) gear... I'm not the best min/maxer, but I'm above average. I had what should have been a pretty good PvE build. And while I really loved the FX of the Tets, and I had a great/fitting name (USS Fulgora), that ship stank. In PvE easy "daily" stuff (not even STFs), I'd have to make 2-3 attack runs to destroy frigate-level NPCs. It was terrible.
I put on common level phasers and matching tac consoles. And the ship seemed to improve. I moved on to other builds later...
Anyway, sorry to hear Tets are still the worst available. Though, I suppose as others have posted, in this game if you can steamroll the PvE content I play with pretty much anything. lol :P
I LOL'd
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I was reflecting on the tetryon build's ability to put out damage independently.
I just mentioned the JH build because, in a comparison of utility/contribution to a team, it proved to be infinitely more valuable and satisfying to field.
Tet build: Expensive and useless
JH Build: where I came from and not useless.
That's the extent of the comparison being made here. Of course I wouldn't bother saying the JH build is better at doing dps. I guess I could make a polaron khyzon build if you really want me to, that could be interesting, I've got half the parts lying around already. Eh.
a) Try the JHDC with tetryon, or
b) Try the Khyzon with your preferred build?
If not, then you haven't tested adequately.
A real test involves having only one difference between the "control" and the item being tested.
So without such a real test, your observation is meaningless, as there are FAR too many differences between the two ships/builds/damage types to say which one (or many) thing(s) is/are the reason you got no kills.
And just saying "tetryon is useless" is merely pissing in the wind without a proper test.
Why are you so fixated on a comparison between these two unrelated builds? That wasn't my message, nor was I randomly saying "tets r bad mmkay?"
My contribution was my experience, which I will lay out for you as simply as possible.
Step 1) I decided I would try trets, because I was already specced into max energy damage and flow caps from my polaron build anyway
step 2) I researched and acquired every item, set bonus, and trait that would buff the damage or its proc.
step 3) I assembled a ship built around putting out the absolute maximum amount of both tet proc and damage from a single un-supported source available in game. There would never be an instance in the game, possible at this current point in time, where more tetryon weapon damage and stronger tetryon procs could be put out simultaneously by a single ship than this build offered. +tet +drain was literally maxed.
step 4) this damage was shrugged off in pvp scenarios because the proc was worthless in a world of a thousand shield heals, and when it did get a facing down, damage output massively dropped off because that shield proc had nothing more to contribute to the battle at that point, unlike every other proc in game which is useful for more than the opening phase of an attack.
step 5) the enemies i targeted eventually noticed the growing pile of marshmallows at their feet I had been throwing at them, gathered them all up into a pillowcase, beat me unconscious with it, shoved all the marshmallows down my mouth as ballast, and threw my body in a river.
step 6)?????
step 7) profit
There was no comparison needed. I made a proof of concept. I made a pure build catering to everything tetryon is, and tetryon failed like one of those 67-winged biplanes you see in stock video collections about how stupid people in the past were.
You dont get it. Even using just phasers you will draing your target's shields faster. There is no point on using tetryon, not at all. I also tried with the nukara set and the apex predator one. Plus consoles of course. Nothing. I do 200% more damage to shields just using the phasers of my dyson destroyer.. :cool:
I always thought that i was missing something, because it was ridiculous, but hm i dont think so.
I see what you're saying, but it kind of proves my point. This is the only weapon in the arsenal quantitatively inferior to all alternatives, so much to the point that players don't even bother cultivating resistance against it.
It's the only weapon type with a proc that, at a point in the battle, becomes useless.
Even if it did burn through the resb's, according to your strategy it'd do so slowly because
-I would've picked up dirt-cheap low quality parts instead of standardized fleet components
-the average player has a massive counter (TT) on constantly
-those stupid shields that should never have existed in the first place have the ability to adapt
-there's more abilities available to players that negate the effects of this proc than any other weapons proc in game.
Your conclusion is correct, I'd be better off with phasers or polarons. Both of those will actually have a detrimental weakening effect on my target, disabling the speed defense, shields or aux-based healing, or weakening the speed defense, shields regen/hardness or aux based healing, whereas tet would just get the shields down and then be like "Ok, now what?" just in time for the shields to be fully repaired.
Tets in the current build will always be a bad move. There's better weapons for support roles, there's better weapons for DPS guys. These things should either be avoided or somehow rethought.
At the point where your opponent runs out of shields, PvP-wise, he tends to die quickly and violently regardless of the energy type.
But that's the thing: With Tetryon, dirt cheap HIGH quality parts can be had.
These things uniformly punish all weapons, so this is not a problem intrinsic to Tetryon.
Indeed, Phaser and Polaroid are both ResA weapons capable of working around the ubiquity of ResB shielding...Polaroid is often even cheap, albeit not as cheap as Tetryon.
Well, it's certainly less than optimal, but it does have the advantage of being reliably cheap.
I still haven't masted splitting quotes like that, so bear with me...
-It was a really poor choice to lump all of those damage types into one category, but here we are...
-Here's the situation though: In any scenario, when you're firing at an enemy and their shields go down, with any weapon other than tetryon, you're at least keeping up the "hurt." Phasers will still degrade their situation, so will polarons, disruptors, ap, plasma, whereas tets just stop. Tetryon weapons have a drop off in effective applicable pressure that no other weapon faces. Even if you argue they could more effectively combat recovery of target's shields, so could every other proc, on top of its other effects. These weapons are completely outmoded by every other weapon type here.
-Building off this, what happens on the enemy's side when you've procced their shields down? Yes, they're all easily cleared, but there's more raw shield heal abilities available to players than there are subsystem repair, cleanse, or hull repair abilities, possibly even combined. So your tetryons don't only just stop being effective once the shields go down, but your target's more likely to have a way to nullify that proc's effect that's not on cooldown.
-I would disagree. Polaron will weaken shield hardness and regen, or restorative heals. Phasers will turn either of them off. Disruptors will debuff the shields. These two very common counters (TT and adaptive shields) work more effectively against tetryon than any other damage type. While the other types of damage decrease the effectiveness of shielding, Tet proc only strips shields, and these countermeasures stretch shields.
-Even then, they're less effective than standardly priced parts. Considering you're already fighting uphill because of what I've mentioned above, saving a couple million on a MK 12 Blue instead of going for an up to par fleet part is going to have a more tangible effect. You might save some pretend money, but you're going to be spending it on pretend repairs and funerals later. I get the argument that for an entry level player who's running stock shipyard parts somehow, yes, tets are better than that, but to insinuate that their value is the ability to make a cheaper pvp build that can still be cost effective, well... No. Cost-benefit isn't there in that scenario. You get what you pay for in this case. You might narrow the gap, but you still won't make the leap.
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm just trying to underline the scope of the problem here. But this is the point we're at.
If we had a battlegroup of ships, all things equal- same weapons, skills, and loadouts, only changing the energy types, assuming 100% chance to proc, no crits, and a flat standard amount of damage output, all shooting at identical targets... The tetryon ship's target is going to die last every time. It might be neck and neck with the polaron ship, but polaron has the edge because the power decrease effects regen and hardness, so your damage will ramp up while tet stays the same. Even if we allowed all the targets to use the same pool of healing powers and cleanses with intelligent prioritization, the tetryon ship would still come in last place, and with the polaron now able to affect heal effectiveness too, the gap actually increases. So against better enemies, second-to-last place actually becomes more useful, while last place becomes less so.
10's a bit unrealistic, probably more like 3-6, but I'll play along...
Assuming access to unlimited resources a-la the "I need guns" scene in the Matrix, perhaps.
passive Reflects, Placates, Heals or Drains from sets, fleet consoles, and doffs on a tanky enough ship could well nullify that threat long enough to rack up at least one kill. It'd be a race downhill. Could I neutralize your damage output by debuffing and killing your weaker ships faster than they could whittle me down?
Plasmonic leech polaron or voth AP + 4 embassy flow cap passive shield heals or + shield heals depending on the weapon type, drain diplomat doffs, HG shield, placate entertainer doffs, A2B SS, RSP, APD3. Can't decide on other doffs or the set bonuses or if I'd go for +evasion or +res in my engineering consoles off the top of my head, I'd have to spend a couple hours on the wiki. Couple this with fleet-grade modifiers...
The longer I stay alive, the higher my chances of surviving.
Meh.
In this fantastic ultra unlikely to happen situation where I've been given a blank check to make a ship designed to a tank a fleet of ten ships outfitted with optimized tetryon parts for the exact same amount as my bottom line, then I'd say it's likely there's a pilot smart enough to round out and keybind the ship into living.
It would be a good fight.
Obviously, this is a thoroughly unrealistic scenario to begin with. The point is, I can field a ship maybe 97.5% as good as yours for a fraction of the budget. Because when you fire your gun, only 2.5% of the time does anything actually happen that makes Tetryon different from Some Other Energy Type. The rest of the time, I cause damage, the same damage as you, and nothing interesting happens.
The Bottom Line: Tetryon procs are pretty junk. This makes Tetryon hella-cheap and high levels of performance can be achieved without a budget the size of Jedinikon's.
[Borg] which I rarely used. I still have them and one set of the old plain tets. The reason for this is that I loved using the Dominion Polarons. I guess the success came from the fact that when enhancing the Polarons with their respective Tac Consoles, it not only enhanced the damage of the Polarons but also increased their shield depleting procs. Also using the J'HSet increased both of them further. I still use them but for other reasons. It's a pity that Cryptic while enhancing the J'H ground/space set, they didn't update the Dominion weapons.
I suppose the success of the Dom Pol Beams/Cannons was that while they took the shields down they also got through to the hull with the polaron part of the weapon. Tetryon weapons need torpedoes to take advantage of the shield condition of the target. Also you need a Overloaded Tet Beam Bank up front firing to clear the shields facing as your torps take off. With a setup similar to this and well practiced you can do fairly well (even in PVP) against a ship with average Hull specs. Don't try this on an Obelisk and expect to finish him off...you will have to slug it out, but take note that this would apply to any other weapon.
To tell you honestly, if Cryptic, by some miracle of fate, upgraded the Dom Pols to Mk XII as they are presently spec'd, I would be the first in line to buy them.
Be Well, folks,
I only have something useful to add on two parts of that, so that's what I quoted...
TT constantly redistributes shields, meaning that you are using all shield facings at once against any damage directed at any given shield facing. This translates into an increase to the effectiveness of the Tetryon proc, since it affects all shield facings at once. It's still useless once the shields are down, but while the shields are up TT actually quadruples the relative benefit of the drain against the facing you are shooting at rather than making Tetryons less desirable.
The latter is more of an issue, and the whole no shields = no proc thing. Significant enough that you really are at a small disadvantage against someone of equivalent equipment quality. The thing to remember, though, is the cost. You can field a solid payload for a very small portion of the cost of other damage types, simply because the proc is so meh. I usually run Tetryons for my recent level 50's until I can upgrade to Fleet quality equipment, for the simple reason that I can afford better weapons in Tetryon than any other damage type. Since Fleet gear costs the same regardless of damage type, when you start on that switching damage type then isn't a bad plan.
Anywho... Tetryons are great from cost perspective, just slightly lower quality than an equivalent weapon of another type; think of them as starter gear and upgrade to something else once you can buy the Fleet consoles and whatnot.
I see why you would think that about tac team, let me try to explain it better.
If you're shooting phasers/polarons/disruptors at a ship with permaTT, any proc is going to decrease the effectiveness of those shields. It'll shut them off or it'll weaken them depending on the proc.
However, the tet proc is just going to eat more shields, which will just keep coming. So while the other procs allow you an opportunity to bypass TT, tet plays by the rules and loses the advantage because of that.
but how much advantage are we talking about? once again: the effect of the procs, be it phaser, plasma, disruptor or tetryon is so tiny, even with the appropriate skill maxed out, that it won't matter.
If it takes 3 bursts to kill a single borg sphere in an elite STF, it will take 3 bursts with whatever weapon you're using.
I completely disagree. ITs far from being exactly the same as any other weapon. That is what i thought at the beginning, but i was completely mistaken. The damage output is ridiculous , no matter what. PVP is dead so, we are not talking about pvp. Tetryon is cheap because it is the most useless weapon type in the game. You will get 100% more drops of tetryon stuff than anything else, there is a reason for that.
I personally im tired of trying to make use of a tetryon build, i gave up time ago. Its a waste of time lol.