It is you who doesn't get it. Tetryon can do extra damage when shields are down. I have 100% reflect chance to hit nearby ships stripping there shields ready to kill. I also swapped to Disruptors and took a large DPS drop. Took way longer to kill groups with Disruptors over Tetryon. What makes Teyron so good are the synergy bonus which let me do more damage to NPC groups then Disruptors.
When I fight the first group in Azure nebula I can get 30k to 40k burst damage killing the entire group in my cruiser with Tetryon. I get under 15kdps burst with disputer.
Well, it will the first time i read this.. tetryon deals extra damage when an enemy has no shields. LOL. Maybe cryptic changed the way tetryon works in the las season?? lol.
Refracting tetryons are as useless as any other type. But suit yourself. I mean, it doesnt matter if all the player base tells you tetryon are useless, you still will be thinking the opossite lol. Yes , maybe refracting is the only type of tetryons that people uses, but only for curiosity. They tend to just switch to other weapon type after a couple of days lol. You must be the only one who "thinks" tetryons are useful. Seriously xD.
You cant reach the damage dealt by disruptors with tetryons, its impossible. But it looks like you just like tetryon and it doesnt matter how bad are those weapons, you will still saying they rock lol. I only hope you never play on elite difficulty. Or instead of blaming the tetryon weapons, you will be saying that elite mode is broken hahahahaha. :P
Ok, I have various dmg type weapons sets for my ship. And no matter what type I equip (Polaron, Tetryon, Disruptor, Plasma, Antiproton) I made ~12k DPS. So really all weapons have same dmg, they only different what their bonus do.
Nah, you dont get it. Once the shields are down, tetryon weapons do NOTHING.
Hmm... then how is it possible that I can kill, with tetryon setup, transformers at Kithomer Space Elite much faster then 2-3 players with any other weapon type?
If a ship cant deal almost the same base damage with an energy type without taking in consideration the procs of the weapon, that weapon is broken. Is that simple. Thats the reason phasers were always considered "nerfed" or broken, and tetryons even worst.
And that's just where you're plain out wrong. There is no difference between two weapon types of the same quality and with teh same mods, once you elimate their procs.
You're claiming something that hasn't been experienced by any other players, that isn't explainable by "theorycrafting" and which can't or at least hasn't been proven by any parse at all.
If anything, the opposite is true, there are tons of parses out there that will completely disprove you claim.
Unless you can come up with something solid that goes past you saying "it takes 10 minutes to kill something with tetryons that will just take a few seconds with disruptors, using the same setup", no one will believe you. It just feels like one of those elementary school video game rumors that kids come up with from time to time...
CRF, by increasing the actual RoF would slightly increase the probability by adding a cycle. FAW simply adds another shot, so the cycle duration remains the same.
CRF applies both a rate of fire increase and a damage buff. These are balanced so that DHCs and Turrets and Cannons all get the same total benefit to DPS out of activating the power... but the last time I ran the calculations, the rate of fire increase made Cannons/Turrets noticeably "better" for applying procs than DHCs.
Lets see...
Normally weapons will follow this firing sequence: Cannon/Turret: Fire for 2s (4 shots), then recharge for 1s.
Dual Heavy Cannon: Fire for 1s (2 shots), then recharge for 2s.
--> Note that Firing Cycle for both Cannons/Turrets and DHCs is 3s total.
When CRF is active, they follow this firing sequence: Cannon/Turret: Fire for 1.2s (4 shots), then recharge for 1s.
Dual Heavy Cannon: Fire for 0.6s (2 shots), then recharge for 2s.
--> Note that Firing Cycle is now 2.2s for Cannons/Turrets and 2.6s for DHCs.
Beams always Fire for 4s then recharge for 1s.
They'll just fire 4 shots normally or 5 under Fire at Will.
--> Firing Cycle is therefore always going to be 5s for Beams
Lets take a period of 15 seconds (the duration of a disruptor proc)
Over this period of time, there will be exactly 5 chances for a Cannon/Turret/DHC (No CRF) to proc; and exactly 3 chances for a Beam to proc. When CRF is active, this increases to an average of 5.77 chances for a DHC to proc and 6.82 chances for a Cannon/Turret to Proc (the exact number will depend on at what point in their firing cycle they are at the beginning of those 15 seconds).
Using these figures we can work out the cumulative probability of at least one proc happening over a 15 second period (or to put it another way, the average chance for you to have a disruptor debuff active! )
WITHOUT CRF:
7*5 = 35 chances to proc. Given a 2.5% proc rate; this will translate to a (1-((1-0.025)^35)) = 58.775% cumulative probability that you will get at least one proc occurring over the 15 second duration.
WITH CRF:
Minimum number of Proc chances will be 4*5 + 3*6 = 38 = 61.79% Cumulative Probability.
Maximum number of Proc chances will be 4*6 + 3*7 = 45 = 68.00% Cumulative Probability.
Average chances will be 4*5.77 + 3*6.82 = 43.53 = Between 66.33% and 67.18% Cumulative Probability.
2) Typical Cruiser Build = 8x Beam Arrays.
8*3 = 24 chances to proc = 45.54% Cumulative Probability
3) Theoretical Maximum: 8x Turrets with CRF
Maximum number of Proc chances will be 8*7 = 56 = 75.15% Cumulative Probability.
Lots of figures... so what's this all mean?
It means you can never come close to guaranteeing full disruptor proc uptime with just your own ship's weaponry, but you will generally be able to achieve an average uptime of 45% with a Beam build and an average uptime of somewhere between 60% and 75% with a Cannon build. Whenever you use CRF, Cannons and Turrets will have noticeably more chances to proc (and thus higher average proc uptime) than DHCs.
Remember though that this is all just probabilities and averages, and spikes of unluckiness/luckiness can and will occur!! (and also remember that I'm notorious for typos, so there may well be a decimal point in the wrong place here somewhere...) :P
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To adapt this for Tetryon weapons, you can expect an average of:
+ 1/3.0 = 0.333 Chances to Proc every second for Cannon Weaponry normally.
+ 1/2.6 = 0.385 Chances to Proc every second for DHCs under CRF
+ 1/2.2 = 0.455 Chances to Proc every second for Cannons/Turrets under CRF
+ 1/5.0 = 0.200 Chances to Proc every second for Beams
Multiply those values by your Proc rate (usually 0.025), then by the amount of shield points your Proc drains.
That'll give you the average performance benefit by your Weapon procs.
Well, it will the first time i read this.. tetryon deals extra damage when an enemy has no shields. LOL. Maybe cryptic changed the way tetryon works in the las season?? lol.
loL as much as you want it just shows how wrong you are. The Hyper DBB has a 100% reflect chance. So if my main targets shields are down I ame still striping shields away from near by targets. In other words the proc is still doing extra damage even if the main target has lost shields. That is extra damage on 100% of shots if another target is in range, compared to only 2.5% on disruptors.
Refracting tetryons are as useless as any other type. But suit yourself. I mean, it doesnt matter if all the player base tells you tetryon are useless, you still will be thinking the opossite lol. Yes , maybe refracting is the only type of tetryons that people uses, but only for curiosity. They tend to just switch to other weapon type after a couple of days lol. You must be the only one who "thinks" tetryons are useful. Seriously xD.
You cant reach the damage dealt by disruptors with tetryons, its impossible. But it looks like you just like tetryon and it doesnt matter how bad are those weapons, you will still saying they rock lol. I only hope you never play on elite difficulty. Or instead of blaming the tetryon weapons, you will be saying that elite mode is broken hahahahaha. :P
It’s the other way around you cannot possibly match the damage Tetryon do with disruptors. If I am wrong please explain to me how I can do the below with disruptor’s on my cruiser.
Take the Azure nebula disruptors do under half the damage of my Tetryon build. As for Elite its super easy. Back to my build I have a 25% crit chance. So 1 in 4 shots crits and wipes our pretty much the entire group of ships in Azure nebula. So the opening volley is Tetryon Sniper blast which is over 10k damage in a 2km blast hitting the entire group a crit would pretty much wipe out the group.
Another option is Unstable Tetryon lattice 10k damage in a 5km blast. Follow by 7k damage Refracting Teryon Cascade again either of these crit the entire group is pretty much dead.
The Hyper DBB has a 100% reflect chance as extra damage to nearby targets. So if my main targets shields are down I am still damaging the nearby ships shields. It can Beam Overload two targets at once or hit extra targets with FaW with the Hyper beam.
The DBB alone beats any disruptors weapon I can fit to my Cruiser. But if you add on Unstable Tetryon lattice, Refracting Teryon Cascade and Tetryon Sniper blast I fail to see how disruptors can match the damage. With those powers I can kill entire groups of ships with Tetryon before the disruptors have even killed the first 3 targets. If I am so wrong stop LoL at everything and show me some evidence.
EDIT: Tetryon mines are also good as they strip away large amounts of shields and lower shield resistance. A nice synergy.
So, apparently, for some of you tetryon weapons are useful, im glad to hear. But for the 90% of the rest of us, they arent lol.
And you dont see tetryon builds out there, for the same reason of this post. So, you guys are going to tell everyone that, until know, everybody tested and tried millions of times tetryon weapons and they are useless, and suddenly now you guys are saying that this isnt true?? that tetryon weapons are as useful as any other energy type??
Ow,.. lol. I wonder why people dont use em, then. Its weird, really weird. And there is a reason why tetryon drops are 75% more frecuents. More useless weapons = more drops. This is the way its always ve been. Its impossible to destroy anything faster with tetryon weapons, its just impossible. I dunno if you guys just want to troll or to keep tetryon weapons alive at all costs. But as i said, suit yoursefl guys, i will never go back to tetryon weapons lol, not until cryptic do something to em and they become as useful as the other energy types.
Its the other way around you cannot possibly match the damage Tetryon do with disruptors. If I am wrong please explain to me how I can do the below with disruptors on my cruiser.
I dont care. I put disruptors on my ship, with no console boosts and no sets,and i can kill anything i want.
I put tetryons on my ship , it doesnt matter they type, and i cant kill anything.
Thats the difference.
Anything else, its pure comedy. My Bortasqu with disruptors and photons is a killing machine. When i had my hirogen apex mounted with tetryons, nukara set and tetryon boosters, it was just a sitting duck. I neded 20x the time to kill anything, even frigates, than i needed with my Bortasqu. And with my breen warship and a torpedo boat, the same. And with my kumari and ap build, the same. And with my dyson destroyer and quantum torpedos + phasers = more the same lol. I dunno how to explain it. Seroiusly.
And you dont see tetryon builds out there, for the same reason of this post. So, you guys are going to tell everyone that, until know, everybody tested and tried millions of times tetryon weapons and they are useless, and suddenly now you guys are saying that this isnt true?? that tetryon weapons are as useful as any other energy type??
As I mentioned earlier...when was the testing done? Was it before December 2013? Or has it been since the bug causing Tetryon to do less damage was fixed?
So, you guys are going to tell everyone that, until know, everybody tested and tried millions of times tetryon weapons and they are useless, and suddenly now you guys are saying that this isnt true?? that tetryon weapons are as useful as any other energy type??
As it has already been said a major bug has been fixed. Tetryon weapons had a bug that made them do less damage then they should. Tetryon now work correctly and do much more damage then before. So yes everyone who did millions of test in the past did bad damage. Tetryon used to be useless but have been fixed.
Its impossible to destroy anything faster with tetryon weapons, its just impossible. I dunno if you guys just want to troll or to keep tetryon weapons alive at all costs. But as i said, suit yoursefl guys, i will never go back to tetryon weapons lol, not until cryptic do something to em and they become as useful as the other energy types.
Did you understand anything I just wrote? How can you say that when I just proved tetryon weapons can kill a group of ships faster much faster? By the time disruptors can kill 3 ships tetryon can kill the entire group. It’s impossible for disruptors to do that much damage to groups of ships. Lol all the time is just making yourself look silly. The evidence proves tetryon is better and disruptors do much less damage to groups.
Keep saying its impossible as much as you like but the fact is it is impossible for disruptors to kill anywhere near as fast when dealing with groups of ships. Cryptic do something to em. They fixed them.
I dont care. I put disruptors on my ship, with no console boosts and no sets,and i can kill anything i want.
I put tetryons on my ship , it doesnt matter they type, and i cant kill anything.
Thats the difference.
Anything else, its pure comedy. My Bortasqu with disruptors and photons is a killing machine. When i had my hirogen apex mounted with tetryons, nukara set and tetryon boosters, it was just a sitting duck. I neded 20x the time to kill anything, even frigates, than i needed with my Bortasqu. And with my breen warship and a torpedo boat, the same. And with my kumari and ap build, the same. And with my dyson destroyer and quantum torpedos + phasers = more the same lol. I dunno how to explain it. Seroiusly.
So basically you don’t care that you are wrong and you don’t care about the facts. Instead you are going to keep LoL at everyone for saying Tetyons now work and keep making fun of everyone despite that fact you are wrong?
Look at it from my point of view. I put tetryons on my ship and I can kill an entire group of 10 NPC ships in seconds. I put disruptors on and I can barely kill 3 ships in seconds.
As it has been said when did you try tetryons? Was it a few months back, before they got fixed? tetryons used to be broken and have now been fixed.
EDIT:Another thing just because you have 1 bad Tetryon build it doesn’t mean all Tetryon builds are bad.
i've personally been researching tetryon on my alt, and as someone who has used antiproton for years, i've been comparing stuff to my main.
my main has antiproton with obelisk and critical chance consoles. it has as many things as i can get on it for critical chance. i have a 10% crit chance, and a 90% crit severity, on top of the 169.5% antiproton damage from 5 fleet consoles and the 2 piece antiproton set. this is just about as high as antiproton specific attacks could ever get for this ship at the moment.
tetryon on the other can have alot higher base damage, with a slight drop in critical damage to do not having the antiproton's critical severity bonus. after all antiproton only helps the severity of the critical, not the chance of it.
my "better then antiproton" tetryon build consists of:
nukara space 2 piece - 7.6% tetryon damage. (total 7.6%)
hirogen space 2 piece - 7.6% tetryon damage (total 15.2%)
x5 fleet tactical consoles - 159.5% tetryon damage (total 174.7%)
fleet warpcore with AMP proc (anywhere from 3% to 12%, forget exactly how much AMP does, but yay for all energy bonus)
end total is a possible 185% tetryon damage (give or take a few points). this is a noticable leap from 169.5% from antiproton. so you may have less critical, but more base damage. it comes down to deciding which you'd rather have in a fight.
only downside to maxing tetryon is that some of the pieces you need are lobi only.
i also plan to use refracting tetryon, for the purpose that i generally use alot of AoEs anyway, and the refracting proc will allow me to hit all the enemies in my multivector's gravity well even better then just a storm of scatter volley will.
I have found this to be 100% right. In addition, a pure Tetryon build will also have TWO added instant attacks added via reputation/set bonuses (tetryon lattice and refracting assault) , that is like getting 2 free refracting beam overloads on a cooldown which also benefit from +tet, which in effect gives your tetryon BO a non-exploit triple-tap. IMO when played/built correctly (add in a G-well or Grav torp/ spread for more fun) it is even more potent.
Rips apart those Recluses and other elite content in CE like nothing else I've seen. I can routinely place in the top 3 on my TER tetryon build without trying, even with all the FAW boats in the STF.
Yes THAT build is expensive and time consuming (Boffs, Doffs, lobi, Rep and Gear), but no more expensive than any other high end build today. As stated above, those ResB pvp guys won't know what hit them in a "pure" build.
The old antiproton mk x used to be the PvP gained weapon of choice from the early days of pvp marks, and has proven to stand the test of time, but there ARE other viable ship pvp/pve builds out of each damage type that are just as effective but in a different way.
Sniper blast comes from the Apex 3-set, which is a Cannon, a Quantum Mine Launcher and a Console.
Lattice comes from the Nukara 3-set, which is a Shield, Engine and Deflector.
Refracting Teryon Cascade comes from reputation system's Nukara Active Ability.
They're good for spike damage, unquestionably.
But they EACH have a 3 minute cooldown and the first two require some hefty equipment sacrifices to get.
Their average damage over time is therefore going to be very very low - even if they do 15k damage, over time this is only going to work out at 83 DPS. An average build does between 10,000 and 20,000 DPS.
The Apex 2-set bonus grants a "strength" (before buffs) 7.6% damage buff to Tetryon damage. With Skillpoints and Tac Consoles you'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 1.5-2.0% buff from this 2-piece bonus - which over time will STILL beat the Damage from all three of those abilities combined.
For AoE Spike damage there are a large number of options: you can use consoles or long-cooldown powers like the ones you suggest above; or you can stack shorter-cooldown abilities such as Torpedo Spread and Gravity Well with Beam: Fire at Will or Cannon Scatter Volley. The Hyper Refracting DBB is a nice weapon, but unfortunately it's Unique: you can only use one of them. And the refract effect only occurs on the weapon's first pulse, so it's technically only "one extra shot" - so it's not double damage, just +25% damage... or +20% if you're using Fire At Will.
The strength of a Disruptor build is in damage over time, not spike damage. And the main kick to it comes not just in the damage resistance proc (which impacts upon the enemy and increases all damage done to them by any source - pets, science abilities, teammates, whatever) but the fact that the 8472 Counter-Command set grants a "bonus" (after buffs) damage buff to the damage type. That set bonus alone will blow any other build save Antiprotons (due to the Ancient Obelisk set bonus and the insanity of high Critical Chance/Severity stacking) out of the water.
Tetryon's aren't "bad" by any stretch of the imagination, and they're nice for occasional spikes... but they're not a particularly high-DPS flavour of weaponry, and they certainly aren't better at it than Disruptors.
The post you quoted is getting confused about the mechanics of damage buff stacking, and is treating all buffs equally. Aside from the nature of "Strength" and "Bonus" buffs; you also have to consider the impact of CritH and CritD on Antiproton builds because it applies multiplicatively after damage buffs (Weapon Power, and skillpoints/"Strength" and "Bonus").
I won't steal Virusdancer's thunder, but DPS Calculations are quite tricky because of all the convoluted wording of ability tooltips and the way buff stacking works. You can't really just pick two random buffs and say that one is better than the other because the number beside it looks bigger.
Sniper blast comes from the Apex 3-set, which is a Cannon, a Quantum Mine Launcher and a Console.
Lattice comes from the Nukara 3-set, which is a Shield, Engine and Deflector.
Refracting Teryon Cascade comes from reputation system's Nukara Active Ability.
They're good for spike damage, unquestionably.
But they EACH have a 3 minute cooldown and the first two require some hefty equipment sacrifices to get.
Their average damage over time is therefore going to be very very low - even if they do 15k damage, over time this is only going to work out at 83 DPS. An average build does between 10,000 and 20,000 DPS.
The Apex 2-set bonus grants a "strength" (before buffs) 7.6% damage buff to Tetryon damage. With Skillpoints and Tac Consoles you'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 1.5-2.0% buff from this 2-piece bonus - which over time will STILL beat the Damage from all three of those abilities combined.
For AoE Spike damage there are a large number of options: you can use consoles or long-cooldown powers like the ones you suggest above; or you can stack shorter-cooldown abilities such as Torpedo Spread and Gravity Well with Beam: Fire at Will or Cannon Scatter Volley. The Hyper Refracting DBB is a nice weapon, but unfortunately it's Unique: you can only use one of them. And the refract effect only occurs on the weapon's first pulse, so it's technically only "one extra shot" - so it's not double damage, just +25% damage... or +20% if you're using Fire At Will.
The strength of a Disruptor build is in damage over time, not spike damage. And the main kick to it comes not just in the damage resistance proc (which impacts upon the enemy and increases all damage done to them by any source - pets, science abilities, teammates, whatever) but the fact that the 8472 Counter-Command set grants a "bonus" (after buffs) damage buff to the damage type. That set bonus alone will blow any other build save Antiprotons (due to the Ancient Obelisk set bonus and the insanity of high Critical Chance/Severity stacking) out of the water.
Tetryon's aren't "bad" by any stretch of the imagination, and they're nice for occasional spikes... but they're not a particularly high-DPS flavour of weaponry, and they certainly aren't better at it than Disruptors.
It's not.
The post you quoted is getting confused about the mechanics of damage buff stacking, and is treating all buffs equally. Aside from the nature of "Strength" and "Bonus" buffs; you also have to consider the impact of CritH and CritD on Antiproton builds because it applies multiplicatively after damage buffs (Weapon Power, and skillpoints/"Strength" and "Bonus").
I won't steal Virusdancer's thunder, but DPS Calculations are quite tricky because of all the convoluted wording of ability tooltips and the way buff stacking works. You can't really just pick two random buffs and say that one is better than the other because the number beside it looks bigger.
The poster I quoted used both the antiproton dmg/bonus numbers and the tetryon dmg/bonus numbers in the same formula, whether additive or multiplicative, he ended with a higher number for Tet using the same number sources, of which a pure tet build has more "modifiers"
ANTIPROTON
+20% crit sev (from AP beam array) - obelisk
+10% acc (from obelisk 2pc bonus) - obelisk
+10% antiproton dmg (from AP beam array) - obelisk
All else should be equal on the same ship (consoles, doffs, boffs, gadget consoles, etc.).
That leaves the tet build with 7.7 % more dmg, 20% more accuracy, 4% more crit, and -20% severity, and doesn't include the Unstable Tetryon lattice and Refracting Tetryon Cascade that also benefit from +tet dmg.
Tet APPEARS to comes out higher whether adding or multiplying, with the most desirable bonus effect being accuracy.
If his/my math was wrong, someone please explain the right math using the right bonuses. I've already built the complete ship, and it performs well, better than well during an alpha.
I'd also argue that with the "many cleanses" and ResB ships running on most pvp built ships, the Tetryon build is even more effective, since your pvp mates consume shieldless ships in seconds.
For the love of Cthulhu, instead of posting anecdotal TRIBBLE, outdated "I did this once" noninstrumented tests, and theory-crafting math out the wazoo, will somebody PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE load up a parser and test the same ship with the same general build with tetryon versus everything else against the same enemies, and just get it over with?
Better yet, if you have ALL EVARYTHING unlocked, build the best tetryon build and the best other builds you can, still on the SAME SHIP, and test them out as well?
Science (the real-world thing, not the STO career) is the way it is because it gives results and removes the bullsh*t from a debate. Use it.
That leaves the tet build with 7.7 % more dmg, 20% more accuracy, 4% more crit, and -20% severity, and doesn't include the Unstable Tetryon lattice and Refracting Tetryon Cascade that also benefit from +tet dmg.
[snipped]
If his/my math was wrong, someone please explain the right math using the right bonuses. I've already built the complete ship, and it performs well, better than well during an alpha.
OK.
Let's skip Acc and Crit for now (because the result of Acc overflow and final Crit Chance/Severity is impossible to predict without knowing the enemy's defence) and just focus on the raw damage bonuses.
100% (Base)
[Skillpoint and Category 1 Buff Modifier (Apex and Nukara sets)]
2.5 Modifier (Weapons power at 125)
[Category 2 Buff modifier (Like EPTW and Obelisk set)]
[Category 3 Buff modifier (Like CRF)]
[Category 4 Modifier (Critical Hit Stats)]
[Procs and Enemy Resistances]
I've no idea what you decided on for Skillpoints and "other buffs" like Mark and Rarity and Tac Consoles and whether you're running EPTW or not... but this will be constant across both sets. A good ballpark for the Category 1 Control modifier is going to be somewhere around 3.0, but this will differ depending on Skillpoint and Console investment.
We're already ignoring Crit Stats because of unpredictable Accuracy Overflow as mentioned above. Likewise for Enemy resistances - this should remain constant.
So that's 100% (base) * 2.5 * 3.0 = 750% Damage to start with as the "control" (or 750% * 1.1 = 825% Damage if you're using EPTW1)
- - - - - - - - - -
For the Antiproton set, we have the Ancient Obelisk set bonus of +10% (a Category 2 buff)
If the Control build wasn't using EPTW1, this will bring it from 750% to (750%*1.1)=825% Total Damage
If the Control build WAS using EPTW1, then this is going to work out at 750%*1.2=900% Total Damage.
- - - - - - - - - -
For the Tetryon set, we have a 7.6% Apex buff, a 7.6% Nukara buff (both Category 1) and a 2.5% weapon damage buff (Not sure... I'll assume Category #2 just in case!)
If the Control build wasn't using EPTW1, we go to (100*2.5*3.152*1.025)=807.7% Total Damage
If the Control build WAS using EPTW1, then we go to (100*2.5*3.152*1.125)=886.5% Total Damage.
That's +17.3% Damage or +13.5% Damage (depending on EPTW1) in favour of the Antiproton build.
[EDIT: Looks like I was wrong and the Nukara set's 2.5% damage buff is actually a "Strength" boost - making it even worse than I assumed here. That's 794.25% damage without EPTW1 or 873.675% damage with EPTW1, for a total of +30.75% or +26.325% damage in favour of the Antiproton build!]
And in reality, Accuracy overflow is almost always going to benefit the Antiproton set even further because of the extra Critical Severity on AP weaponry.
Theorycrafting aside, I'd be interested in a few proper parses. I'm still of the opinion that it's going to be hard to beat a Polarised or Nanite Disruptor build which combines the Protonic Arsenal Console and Gravimetric Photon Launcher with the 8472 Heavy Disruptor Turret and Tactical Console, an Undine Set Deflector and an Adapted MACO Engine/Shield...
A thing I wish they'd address would be in balancing out some of the 2pc set bonuses out there.
They added the 2pc Counter Command Ordnance which provides +7.5% "bonus" Phaser/Disruptor damage, while both the 2pc Apex Predator and 2pc Nukara Appropriated are providing +7.6% "strength"/base Tetryon damage. Then again, 2pc Silent Enemy is +7.6% "strength"/base Disruptor damage as well. There aren't many "bonus" boosts out there, but that there are 2pc sets providing bonus and strength at the same time feels a bit off...meh.
But yeah, I wish they'd take a look at balancing those out, eh?
As it has already been said a major bug has been fixed. Tetryon weapons had a bug that made them do less damage then they should. Tetryon now work correctly and do much more damage then before. So yes everyone who did millions of test in the past did bad damage. Tetryon used to be useless but have been fixed.
Nothing has been fixed. Its your imagination. Tetryons are as bad as before. Maybe the imagination is a crucial factor to "see" tetryons dealing damage lol.
Maybe the tetryons i am trying are those ones the Ferengi had in their trash compartiments.. who knows lol.
The only thing i can say is, i will never try tetryons again, until they are fixed. Period. Its a waste of time. And a big one, i must say. lol. I dont want to stay 5 minutes trying to kill a hirogen escort. Its stupid. At least with my disruptors i can do it on 20 seconds, as it should be. So, hurray for the disruptors and go away tetryons. Period.
A thing I wish they'd address would be in balancing out some of the 2pc set bonuses out there.
They added the 2pc Counter Command Ordnance which provides +7.5% "bonus" Phaser/Disruptor damage, while both the 2pc Apex Predator and 2pc Nukara Appropriated are providing +7.6% "strength"/base Tetryon damage. Then again, 2pc Silent Enemy is +7.6% "strength"/base Disruptor damage as well. There aren't many "bonus" boosts out there, but that there are 2pc sets providing bonus and strength at the same time feels a bit off...meh.
But yeah, I wish they'd take a look at balancing those out, eh?
I used the apex set just for test purposes, and it is a total waste. I spent 600 lobi for nothing, actually lol. The long range cannon is the biggest TRIBBLE ive ever seen, the mine launcher is , well, a mine launcher, nothing more. The console is the 3rd piece, you dont need 3 pieces to get the 7,6% tetryon boost, but i adquired the 3 of em, cuz i wanted to make a fully hirogen-tetryon build. But i failed, since i realized, even with that, tetryon weapons were totatally useless. So now my entire apex set is collecting dust in my bank lol. The Nukara, exactly the same. Same crappy result. They fixed tetryons??? ow, then i must say.. "good job".. then.
Nothing has been fixed. Its your imagination. Tetryons are as bad as before. Maybe the imagination is a crucial factor to "see" tetryons dealing damage lol.
Maybe the tetryons i am trying are those ones the Ferengi had in their trash compartiments.. who knows lol.
The only thing i can say is, i will never try tetryons again, until they are fixed. Period. Its a waste of time. And a big one, i must say. lol. I dont want to stay 5 minutes trying to kill a hirogen escort. Its stupid. At least with my disruptors i can do it on 20 seconds, as it should be. So, hurray for the disruptors and go away tetryons. Period.
Please stop spreading disingenuous information about Tetryon weaponry in this thread. Stop trolling, it's adding nothing to the discussion and you're giving players curious about Tetryon weaponry bad information.
Tetryons deal the same damage as before, period. If you're so hard-headed that you refuse to test Tetryons today, that's your own damned fault and that's fine, everyone is entitled to ignorance, but don't spread it to others.
Tetryons deal the same damage as before, period. If you're so hard-headed that you refuse to test Tetryons today, that's your own damned fault and that's fine, everyone is entitled to ignorance, but don't spread it to others.
And that is what i was talking about... they deal the same damage, you already said it..
And you are the troll here, did you even read my posts????? i TESTED tetryon weapons about 3 weeks ago. That was the last time, again with the sets i said in my previous posts. Please, read again.
You are the ones who are saying that tetryons are great, that they are even better than disruptors :eek: hahaha, seriously. You are the one who is leading people to confusion. We are saying tetryons deals really low damage, and it should not be the case. Since the damage should be the same as any other weapon. I dunno what is so hard to understand. And tetryons are broken since the beginning of times.
Is in that specific context, nothing more.. you guys cant even read? the regular tetryon damage is still minimum.
That was the only instance in which Tetryon weapons were doing less damage than other Energy Types outside of benefits such as Disruptor Procs, Plasma Procs, AP's increased CrtD.
The base damage for a Beam Array is 100 - the base damage for a DHC is 174 - regardless of the Energy Type.
It's one thing to compare the procs - but the damage is going to be the same.
Can you get into set bonuses and boost one above the other? Sure...
The proc discussion is going to vary - Tetryon procs themselves are meaningless against targets without shields, but a Refracting Tetryon proc is doing damage to multiple targets - not just against shields. In some instances, the probability of a proc happening won't compare to running APs because everybody's over the top on CrtH and it's a speed run. There's all sorts of discussions to be had there...
...but in the end, 100 is 100 and 174 is 174...45 is 45, 87 is 87, 130 is 130, etc.
You guys didnt read anything in the entire post lol.
Numbers MEAN nothing in the case of tetryon, they deal less damage, even if the numbers say the opposite. THATS THE FAIL of tetryon weapons. You dont need to make any numbers at all because you are reading something that is mistaken.
Everybody discarded tetryons ages ago, 8 months ago and 2 months ago. Because they are useless, even if they deal the "SAME" damage as other weapon. I really tested it thousands of times. And i dont care about numbers. 90% of the players dont use tetryon, and i must ask "why?". Maybe there is a reason for that?
Cryptic even raised the drop rate of tetryon stuff by A LOT, due to this. We have tetryon drops every seconds, this is not a joke.
Nothing has been fixed. Its your imagination. Tetryons are as bad as before. Maybe the imagination is a crucial factor to "see" tetryons dealing damage lol.
Maybe the tetryons i am trying are those ones the Ferengi had in their trash compartiments.. who knows lol.
The only thing i can say is, i will never try tetryons again, until they are fixed. Period. Its a waste of time. And a big one, i must say. lol. I dont want to stay 5 minutes trying to kill a hirogen escort. Its stupid. At least with my disruptors i can do it on 20 seconds, as it should be. So, hurray for the disruptors and go away tetryons. Period.
Um... since you never seem to provide pictorial evidence of these 'tests' of yours, let me provide a snapshot of the combat log of a CSE run I just did like 5 minutes ago on my Reman. He's flying a freebie Aves-class Dyson Science Destroyer with 1 Refracting Tetryon DHC, 1 refracting Tetryon DC, A Bio Photon Torp, 2 Refracting Tetryon Turrets and the KCB, 3 Mk XI blue Tetryon tac consoles.
Look at the top, the damage my Tetryon DHCs did against the assimilated carrier. Not entirely sure how that number is TRIBBLE damage.
Also, I might take you more seriously if you didn't end pretty much every single sentence with 'lol' as if you were trolling (which I'm more and more convinced you are).
You guys didnt read anything in the entire post lol.
Numbers MEAN nothing in the case of tetryon, they deal less damage, even if the numbers say the opposite. THATS THE FAIL of tetryon weapons. You dont need to make any numbers at all because you are reading something that is mistaken.
Everybody discarded tetryons ages ago, 8 months ago and 2 months ago. Because they are useless, even if they deal the "SAME" damage as other weapon. I really tested it thousands of times. And i dont care about numbers. 90% of the players dont use tetryon, and i must ask "why?". Maybe there is a reason for that?
Cryptic even raised the drop rate of tetryon stuff by A LOT, due to this. We have tetryon drops every seconds, this is not a joke.
Either you're a troll, then "job well done", or you have a very broken perception, a vivid imagination and your posts are getting more and more unbelievable.
You've just made the step from "I've a seen bigfoot" or "I've seen his footprints" to "I can sense bigfoots presence from a thousand miles away"....
You are the ones who are saying that tetryons are great, that they are even better than disruptors
I'm not.
As multiple people have stated earlier:
It doesn't matter if it's a Disruptor, or a Tetryon, or a Protonic weapon.
Identical types of weapons do the same base damage regardless of the energy type.
What DOES differ are the amount of passive buffs which you can stack up for each energy type (as per VirusDancer's post above) and the benefits of different weapon procs in different situations:
+ Plasma and Tetryons are both great against shielded Targets, just like Transphasic Torpedos.
+ Disruptors are great against unshielded Targets; and get exponentially better whenever you have more than just your own energy weapons firing at an enemy.
+ Antiprotons are great against both unshielded and shielded targets; but their bonus only applies to your own energy weaponry.
+ Polarons are great whenever you're stacking Flow Capacitors and trying to completely drop a foe's power settings (Shields is the big one, Aux and Engines can be fun too; and since their weapons will end up dealing less damage to you they're technically good for "tanking")
+ Phasers are great.... whenever all the stars magically align and you actually get the proc you want kicking in at exactly the right time.
Now personally, I tend to like Polarized Disruptors for general gameplay and Nanite Disruptors for extra DPS. But then I like using pets and torps/mines as well as my energy weaponry, and Disruptors pander best to that playstyle. Adding a little extra to my teammates' DPS is a nice additional bonus.
You guys didnt read anything in the entire post lol.
Numbers MEAN nothing in the case of tetryon, they deal less damage, even if the numbers say the opposite. THATS THE FAIL of tetryon weapons. You dont need to make any numbers at all because you are reading something that is mistaken.
Everybody discarded tetryons ages ago, 8 months ago and 2 months ago. Because they are useless, even if they deal the "SAME" damage as other weapon. I really tested it thousands of times. And i dont care about numbers. 90% of the players dont use tetryon, and i must ask "why?". Maybe there is a reason for that?
Cryptic even raised the drop rate of tetryon stuff by A LOT, due to this. We have tetryon drops every seconds, this is not a joke.
" “You are the ones who are saying that tetryons are great, that they are even better than disruptors hahaha, seriously. You are the one who is leading people to confusion.”"
That was me who said that and I said that due to the tetryon blast weapons that hit multiple ships which tetryon can do and Disrupters cannot do. That means you can kill groups of ships way faster with tetryon then disrupters.
Tetryon and Disrupters do the same base damage so it is you who is misleading everyone and by flat out lying when you say tetryon do minimum damage and tetryon take x10 longer to kill. Both weapons are the same base damage but the extra Tetryon powers push them beyond Disrupters. Can a Disrupters do 10k+ damage per ships to 10+ ships in 1 shot? The answer is no. Can Tetryon do 10k damage per ship to 10+ships in 1 shot the answer is yes. Hence Tetryon can kill faster and do more damage.
Can Disrupters beam overload 2 targets at once? no. Can Tetryon beam overload 2 targets yes.
Anyway I can see the others proved you wrong so no need to continue with the rest of this post.
Can a Disrupters do 10k+ damage per ships to 10+ ships in 1 shot? The answer is no. Can Tetryon do 10k damage per ship to 10+ships in 1 shot the answer is yes. Hence Tetryon can kill faster and do more damage.
Tetryon can't either.
Let me clarify: Tetryon WEAPONS can't; but abilities granted by equipment sets can. Two of those abilities just happen to deal Tetryon Damage, so it gets multiplied by your Tac Consoles if you're already stacking Tetryon weaponry (not actually by a huge amount either due to damage stacking mechanics, but whatever)
So what you're actually doing here is comparing a Tetryon build - complete with equipment and set bonuses - to a disruptor build without any equipment or set bonues. And as I already pointed out a few posts ago: you lose an awful lot of other things in order to equip the items needed to get those two set bonus abilities; and they're only good for a single spike of damage every 3 minutes.
High Spike damage powers are useful, but they don't lend themselves to good DPS over time.
I could, for example, make the same argument about (for example) Disruptors and the Javelin weapon of the Guramba Siege Destroyer - which is a very heavy AoE disruptor shot that has only a 60 second cooldown time. Or even something like the Counter-Command 3-set which is an AoE attack that also applies a debuff.
Can Disrupters beam overload 2 targets at once? no. Can Tetryon beam overload 2 targets yes.
This is correct, but is the effect of a single unique weapon - the Hyper Refracting Beam Array. It does 20% higher DPS than a normal DBB (the first shot refracting to an additional target); so it's main trick is a double Beam Overload. Again: Good Spike damage, poor DPS.
Different Special weapons have different uses. Can Tetryons apply Radiation damage (which ignores shields and is largely unresistable) against an enemy with every shot?
The Hyper DBB is a nice weapon, but it won't beat another energytype build all by itself.
Tetryon builds are perfectly viable; and can be high Spike Damage, but high Spike Damage doesn't automatically translate into high DPS over an entire instance.
Comments
Well, it will the first time i read this.. tetryon deals extra damage when an enemy has no shields. LOL. Maybe cryptic changed the way tetryon works in the las season?? lol.
Refracting tetryons are as useless as any other type. But suit yourself. I mean, it doesnt matter if all the player base tells you tetryon are useless, you still will be thinking the opossite lol. Yes , maybe refracting is the only type of tetryons that people uses, but only for curiosity. They tend to just switch to other weapon type after a couple of days lol. You must be the only one who "thinks" tetryons are useful. Seriously xD.
You cant reach the damage dealt by disruptors with tetryons, its impossible. But it looks like you just like tetryon and it doesnt matter how bad are those weapons, you will still saying they rock lol. I only hope you never play on elite difficulty. Or instead of blaming the tetryon weapons, you will be saying that elite mode is broken hahahahaha. :P
Hmm... then how is it possible that I can kill, with tetryon setup, transformers at Kithomer Space Elite much faster then 2-3 players with any other weapon type?
And that's just where you're plain out wrong. There is no difference between two weapon types of the same quality and with teh same mods, once you elimate their procs.
You're claiming something that hasn't been experienced by any other players, that isn't explainable by "theorycrafting" and which can't or at least hasn't been proven by any parse at all.
If anything, the opposite is true, there are tons of parses out there that will completely disprove you claim.
Unless you can come up with something solid that goes past you saying "it takes 10 minutes to kill something with tetryons that will just take a few seconds with disruptors, using the same setup", no one will believe you. It just feels like one of those elementary school video game rumors that kids come up with from time to time...
CRF applies both a rate of fire increase and a damage buff. These are balanced so that DHCs and Turrets and Cannons all get the same total benefit to DPS out of activating the power... but the last time I ran the calculations, the rate of fire increase made Cannons/Turrets noticeably "better" for applying procs than DHCs.
Lets see...
Normally weapons will follow this firing sequence:
Cannon/Turret: Fire for 2s (4 shots), then recharge for 1s.
Dual Heavy Cannon: Fire for 1s (2 shots), then recharge for 2s.
--> Note that Firing Cycle for both Cannons/Turrets and DHCs is 3s total.
When CRF is active, they follow this firing sequence:
Cannon/Turret: Fire for 1.2s (4 shots), then recharge for 1s.
Dual Heavy Cannon: Fire for 0.6s (2 shots), then recharge for 2s.
--> Note that Firing Cycle is now 2.2s for Cannons/Turrets and 2.6s for DHCs.
Beams always Fire for 4s then recharge for 1s.
They'll just fire 4 shots normally or 5 under Fire at Will.
--> Firing Cycle is therefore always going to be 5s for Beams
Lets take a period of 15 seconds (the duration of a disruptor proc)
Over this period of time, there will be exactly 5 chances for a Cannon/Turret/DHC (No CRF) to proc; and exactly 3 chances for a Beam to proc. When CRF is active, this increases to an average of 5.77 chances for a DHC to proc and 6.82 chances for a Cannon/Turret to Proc (the exact number will depend on at what point in their firing cycle they are at the beginning of those 15 seconds).
Using these figures we can work out the cumulative probability of at least one proc happening over a 15 second period (or to put it another way, the average chance for you to have a disruptor debuff active!
Examples:
1) Typical Escort Build = 4x DHCs Fore, 3x Turrets Aft
WITHOUT CRF:
7*5 = 35 chances to proc. Given a 2.5% proc rate; this will translate to a (1-((1-0.025)^35)) = 58.775% cumulative probability that you will get at least one proc occurring over the 15 second duration.
WITH CRF:
Minimum number of Proc chances will be 4*5 + 3*6 = 38 = 61.79% Cumulative Probability.
Maximum number of Proc chances will be 4*6 + 3*7 = 45 = 68.00% Cumulative Probability.
Average chances will be 4*5.77 + 3*6.82 = 43.53 = Between 66.33% and 67.18% Cumulative Probability.
2) Typical Cruiser Build = 8x Beam Arrays.
8*3 = 24 chances to proc = 45.54% Cumulative Probability
3) Theoretical Maximum: 8x Turrets with CRF
Maximum number of Proc chances will be 8*7 = 56 = 75.15% Cumulative Probability.
Lots of figures... so what's this all mean?
It means you can never come close to guaranteeing full disruptor proc uptime with just your own ship's weaponry, but you will generally be able to achieve an average uptime of 45% with a Beam build and an average uptime of somewhere between 60% and 75% with a Cannon build. Whenever you use CRF, Cannons and Turrets will have noticeably more chances to proc (and thus higher average proc uptime) than DHCs.
Remember though that this is all just probabilities and averages, and spikes of unluckiness/luckiness can and will occur!!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To adapt this for Tetryon weapons, you can expect an average of:
+ 1/3.0 = 0.333 Chances to Proc every second for Cannon Weaponry normally.
+ 1/2.6 = 0.385 Chances to Proc every second for DHCs under CRF
+ 1/2.2 = 0.455 Chances to Proc every second for Cannons/Turrets under CRF
+ 1/5.0 = 0.200 Chances to Proc every second for Beams
Multiply those values by your Proc rate (usually 0.025), then by the amount of shield points your Proc drains.
That'll give you the average performance benefit by your Weapon procs.
It’s the other way around you cannot possibly match the damage Tetryon do with disruptors. If I am wrong please explain to me how I can do the below with disruptor’s on my cruiser.
Take the Azure nebula disruptors do under half the damage of my Tetryon build. As for Elite its super easy. Back to my build I have a 25% crit chance. So 1 in 4 shots crits and wipes our pretty much the entire group of ships in Azure nebula. So the opening volley is Tetryon Sniper blast which is over 10k damage in a 2km blast hitting the entire group a crit would pretty much wipe out the group.
Another option is Unstable Tetryon lattice 10k damage in a 5km blast. Follow by 7k damage Refracting Teryon Cascade again either of these crit the entire group is pretty much dead.
The Hyper DBB has a 100% reflect chance as extra damage to nearby targets. So if my main targets shields are down I am still damaging the nearby ships shields. It can Beam Overload two targets at once or hit extra targets with FaW with the Hyper beam.
The DBB alone beats any disruptors weapon I can fit to my Cruiser. But if you add on Unstable Tetryon lattice, Refracting Teryon Cascade and Tetryon Sniper blast I fail to see how disruptors can match the damage. With those powers I can kill entire groups of ships with Tetryon before the disruptors have even killed the first 3 targets. If I am so wrong stop LoL at everything and show me some evidence.
EDIT: Tetryon mines are also good as they strip away large amounts of shields and lower shield resistance. A nice synergy.
And you dont see tetryon builds out there, for the same reason of this post. So, you guys are going to tell everyone that, until know, everybody tested and tried millions of times tetryon weapons and they are useless, and suddenly now you guys are saying that this isnt true?? that tetryon weapons are as useful as any other energy type??
Ow,.. lol. I wonder why people dont use em, then. Its weird, really weird. And there is a reason why tetryon drops are 75% more frecuents. More useless weapons = more drops. This is the way its always ve been. Its impossible to destroy anything faster with tetryon weapons, its just impossible. I dunno if you guys just want to troll or to keep tetryon weapons alive at all costs. But as i said, suit yoursefl guys, i will never go back to tetryon weapons lol, not until cryptic do something to em and they become as useful as the other energy types.
I dont care. I put disruptors on my ship, with no console boosts and no sets,and i can kill anything i want.
I put tetryons on my ship , it doesnt matter they type, and i cant kill anything.
Thats the difference.
Anything else, its pure comedy. My Bortasqu with disruptors and photons is a killing machine. When i had my hirogen apex mounted with tetryons, nukara set and tetryon boosters, it was just a sitting duck. I neded 20x the time to kill anything, even frigates, than i needed with my Bortasqu. And with my breen warship and a torpedo boat, the same. And with my kumari and ap build, the same. And with my dyson destroyer and quantum torpedos + phasers = more the same lol. I dunno how to explain it. Seroiusly.
As I mentioned earlier...when was the testing done? Was it before December 2013? Or has it been since the bug causing Tetryon to do less damage was fixed?
Did you understand anything I just wrote? How can you say that when I just proved tetryon weapons can kill a group of ships faster much faster? By the time disruptors can kill 3 ships tetryon can kill the entire group. It’s impossible for disruptors to do that much damage to groups of ships. Lol all the time is just making yourself look silly. The evidence proves tetryon is better and disruptors do much less damage to groups.
Keep saying its impossible as much as you like but the fact is it is impossible for disruptors to kill anywhere near as fast when dealing with groups of ships. Cryptic do something to em. They fixed them.
So basically you don’t care that you are wrong and you don’t care about the facts. Instead you are going to keep LoL at everyone for saying Tetyons now work and keep making fun of everyone despite that fact you are wrong?
Look at it from my point of view. I put tetryons on my ship and I can kill an entire group of 10 NPC ships in seconds. I put disruptors on and I can barely kill 3 ships in seconds.
As it has been said when did you try tetryons? Was it a few months back, before they got fixed? tetryons used to be broken and have now been fixed.
EDIT:Another thing just because you have 1 bad Tetryon build it doesn’t mean all Tetryon builds are bad.
I have found this to be 100% right. In addition, a pure Tetryon build will also have TWO added instant attacks added via reputation/set bonuses (tetryon lattice and refracting assault) , that is like getting 2 free refracting beam overloads on a cooldown which also benefit from +tet, which in effect gives your tetryon BO a non-exploit triple-tap. IMO when played/built correctly (add in a G-well or Grav torp/ spread for more fun) it is even more potent.
Rips apart those Recluses and other elite content in CE like nothing else I've seen. I can routinely place in the top 3 on my TER tetryon build without trying, even with all the FAW boats in the STF.
Yes THAT build is expensive and time consuming (Boffs, Doffs, lobi, Rep and Gear), but no more expensive than any other high end build today. As stated above, those ResB pvp guys won't know what hit them in a "pure" build.
The old antiproton mk x used to be the PvP gained weapon of choice from the early days of pvp marks, and has proven to stand the test of time, but there ARE other viable ship pvp/pve builds out of each damage type that are just as effective but in a different way.
Sniper blast comes from the Apex 3-set, which is a Cannon, a Quantum Mine Launcher and a Console.
Lattice comes from the Nukara 3-set, which is a Shield, Engine and Deflector.
Refracting Teryon Cascade comes from reputation system's Nukara Active Ability.
They're good for spike damage, unquestionably.
But they EACH have a 3 minute cooldown and the first two require some hefty equipment sacrifices to get.
Their average damage over time is therefore going to be very very low - even if they do 15k damage, over time this is only going to work out at 83 DPS. An average build does between 10,000 and 20,000 DPS.
The Apex 2-set bonus grants a "strength" (before buffs) 7.6% damage buff to Tetryon damage. With Skillpoints and Tac Consoles you'll be looking at something in the ballpark of a 1.5-2.0% buff from this 2-piece bonus - which over time will STILL beat the Damage from all three of those abilities combined.
For AoE Spike damage there are a large number of options: you can use consoles or long-cooldown powers like the ones you suggest above; or you can stack shorter-cooldown abilities such as Torpedo Spread and Gravity Well with Beam: Fire at Will or Cannon Scatter Volley. The Hyper Refracting DBB is a nice weapon, but unfortunately it's Unique: you can only use one of them. And the refract effect only occurs on the weapon's first pulse, so it's technically only "one extra shot" - so it's not double damage, just +25% damage... or +20% if you're using Fire At Will.
The strength of a Disruptor build is in damage over time, not spike damage. And the main kick to it comes not just in the damage resistance proc (which impacts upon the enemy and increases all damage done to them by any source - pets, science abilities, teammates, whatever) but the fact that the 8472 Counter-Command set grants a "bonus" (after buffs) damage buff to the damage type. That set bonus alone will blow any other build save Antiprotons (due to the Ancient Obelisk set bonus and the insanity of high Critical Chance/Severity stacking) out of the water.
Tetryon's aren't "bad" by any stretch of the imagination, and they're nice for occasional spikes... but they're not a particularly high-DPS flavour of weaponry, and they certainly aren't better at it than Disruptors.
It's not.
The post you quoted is getting confused about the mechanics of damage buff stacking, and is treating all buffs equally. Aside from the nature of "Strength" and "Bonus" buffs; you also have to consider the impact of CritH and CritD on Antiproton builds because it applies multiplicatively after damage buffs (Weapon Power, and skillpoints/"Strength" and "Bonus").
I won't steal Virusdancer's thunder, but DPS Calculations are quite tricky because of all the convoluted wording of ability tooltips and the way buff stacking works. You can't really just pick two random buffs and say that one is better than the other because the number beside it looks bigger.
The poster I quoted used both the antiproton dmg/bonus numbers and the tetryon dmg/bonus numbers in the same formula, whether additive or multiplicative, he ended with a higher number for Tet using the same number sources, of which a pure tet build has more "modifiers"
ANTIPROTON
+20% crit sev (from AP beam array) - obelisk
+10% acc (from obelisk 2pc bonus) - obelisk
+10% antiproton dmg (from AP beam array) - obelisk
TETRYON
2.5% weapon dmg (from Nukara wep 2pc) - rep
+20% acc (Nukara beam) - rep
+4% crit (from Nukara mine) - rep
+10% acc beams (Nukara console) - rep
+7.6% tet dmg (Nukara Weapon set 2pc) - rep
+7.6% tet dmg (Apex 2pc) - lobi
All else should be equal on the same ship (consoles, doffs, boffs, gadget consoles, etc.).
That leaves the tet build with 7.7 % more dmg, 20% more accuracy, 4% more crit, and -20% severity, and doesn't include the Unstable Tetryon lattice and Refracting Tetryon Cascade that also benefit from +tet dmg.
Tet APPEARS to comes out higher whether adding or multiplying, with the most desirable bonus effect being accuracy.
If his/my math was wrong, someone please explain the right math using the right bonuses. I've already built the complete ship, and it performs well, better than well during an alpha.
I'd also argue that with the "many cleanses" and ResB ships running on most pvp built ships, the Tetryon build is even more effective, since your pvp mates consume shieldless ships in seconds.
Better yet, if you have ALL EVARYTHING unlocked, build the best tetryon build and the best other builds you can, still on the SAME SHIP, and test them out as well?
Science (the real-world thing, not the STO career) is the way it is because it gives results and removes the bullsh*t from a debate. Use it.
OK.
Let's skip Acc and Crit for now (because the result of Acc overflow and final Crit Chance/Severity is impossible to predict without knowing the enemy's defence) and just focus on the raw damage bonuses.
100% (Base)
[Skillpoint and Category 1 Buff Modifier (Apex and Nukara sets)]
2.5 Modifier (Weapons power at 125)
[Category 2 Buff modifier (Like EPTW and Obelisk set)]
[Category 3 Buff modifier (Like CRF)]
[Category 4 Modifier (Critical Hit Stats)]
[Procs and Enemy Resistances]
I've no idea what you decided on for Skillpoints and "other buffs" like Mark and Rarity and Tac Consoles and whether you're running EPTW or not... but this will be constant across both sets. A good ballpark for the Category 1 Control modifier is going to be somewhere around 3.0, but this will differ depending on Skillpoint and Console investment.
We're already ignoring Crit Stats because of unpredictable Accuracy Overflow as mentioned above. Likewise for Enemy resistances - this should remain constant.
So that's 100% (base) * 2.5 * 3.0 = 750% Damage to start with as the "control" (or 750% * 1.1 = 825% Damage if you're using EPTW1)
- - - - - - - - - -
For the Antiproton set, we have the Ancient Obelisk set bonus of +10% (a Category 2 buff)
If the Control build wasn't using EPTW1, this will bring it from 750% to (750%*1.1)=825% Total Damage
If the Control build WAS using EPTW1, then this is going to work out at 750%*1.2=900% Total Damage.
- - - - - - - - - -
For the Tetryon set, we have a 7.6% Apex buff, a 7.6% Nukara buff (both Category 1) and a 2.5% weapon damage buff (Not sure... I'll assume Category #2 just in case!)
If the Control build wasn't using EPTW1, we go to (100*2.5*3.152*1.025)=807.7% Total Damage
If the Control build WAS using EPTW1, then we go to (100*2.5*3.152*1.125)=886.5% Total Damage.
That's +17.3% Damage or +13.5% Damage (depending on EPTW1) in favour of the Antiproton build.
[EDIT: Looks like I was wrong and the Nukara set's 2.5% damage buff is actually a "Strength" boost - making it even worse than I assumed here. That's 794.25% damage without EPTW1 or 873.675% damage with EPTW1, for a total of +30.75% or +26.325% damage in favour of the Antiproton build!]
And in reality, Accuracy overflow is almost always going to benefit the Antiproton set even further because of the extra Critical Severity on AP weaponry.
Theorycrafting aside, I'd be interested in a few proper parses. I'm still of the opinion that it's going to be hard to beat a Polarised or Nanite Disruptor build which combines the Protonic Arsenal Console and Gravimetric Photon Launcher with the 8472 Heavy Disruptor Turret and Tactical Console, an Undine Set Deflector and an Adapted MACO Engine/Shield...
They added the 2pc Counter Command Ordnance which provides +7.5% "bonus" Phaser/Disruptor damage, while both the 2pc Apex Predator and 2pc Nukara Appropriated are providing +7.6% "strength"/base Tetryon damage. Then again, 2pc Silent Enemy is +7.6% "strength"/base Disruptor damage as well. There aren't many "bonus" boosts out there, but that there are 2pc sets providing bonus and strength at the same time feels a bit off...meh.
But yeah, I wish they'd take a look at balancing those out, eh?
At this point I'd settle for them just labelling the darn things consistently in the tooltips... :P
Nothing has been fixed. Its your imagination. Tetryons are as bad as before. Maybe the imagination is a crucial factor to "see" tetryons dealing damage lol.
Maybe the tetryons i am trying are those ones the Ferengi had in their trash compartiments.. who knows lol.
The only thing i can say is, i will never try tetryons again, until they are fixed. Period. Its a waste of time. And a big one, i must say. lol. I dont want to stay 5 minutes trying to kill a hirogen escort. Its stupid. At least with my disruptors i can do it on 20 seconds, as it should be. So, hurray for the disruptors and go away tetryons. Period.
December 5, 2013 Patch Notes - http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=941711
"Resolved an issue that was causing Tetryon Beam Arrays to deal less damage than intended while enhanced with Fire-at-Will."
I used the apex set just for test purposes, and it is a total waste. I spent 600 lobi for nothing, actually lol. The long range cannon is the biggest TRIBBLE ive ever seen, the mine launcher is , well, a mine launcher, nothing more. The console is the 3rd piece, you dont need 3 pieces to get the 7,6% tetryon boost, but i adquired the 3 of em, cuz i wanted to make a fully hirogen-tetryon build. But i failed, since i realized, even with that, tetryon weapons were totatally useless. So now my entire apex set is collecting dust in my bank lol. The Nukara, exactly the same. Same crappy result. They fixed tetryons??? ow, then i must say.. "good job".. then.
Is in that specific context, nothing more.. you guys cant even read? the regular tetryon damage is still minimum.
Tetryons deal the same damage as before, period. If you're so hard-headed that you refuse to test Tetryons today, that's your own damned fault and that's fine, everyone is entitled to ignorance, but don't spread it to others.
And that is what i was talking about... they deal the same damage, you already said it..
And you are the troll here, did you even read my posts????? i TESTED tetryon weapons about 3 weeks ago. That was the last time, again with the sets i said in my previous posts. Please, read again.
You are the ones who are saying that tetryons are great, that they are even better than disruptors :eek: hahaha, seriously. You are the one who is leading people to confusion. We are saying tetryons deals really low damage, and it should not be the case. Since the damage should be the same as any other weapon. I dunno what is so hard to understand. And tetryons are broken since the beginning of times.
That was the only instance in which Tetryon weapons were doing less damage than other Energy Types outside of benefits such as Disruptor Procs, Plasma Procs, AP's increased CrtD.
The base damage for a Beam Array is 100 - the base damage for a DHC is 174 - regardless of the Energy Type.
It's one thing to compare the procs - but the damage is going to be the same.
Can you get into set bonuses and boost one above the other? Sure...
Antiproton: +10% bonus (2pc Ancient Obelisk Technology)
Disruptor: +7.5% bonus (2pc Counter Command Ordnance)
Disruptor: +7.6% strength (2pc Silent Enemy)
Phaser: +7.5% bonus (2pc Counter Command Ordnance)
Plasma: +7.6% strength (2pc Romulan Harness)
Plasma: +10% bonus (2pc Enhanced Plasma Fusion)
Plasma: +8.4% strength (Mk X Plasma Infused Science Console)
Plasma: +9% strength (Mk XI Plasma Infused Science Console)
Plasma: +9.6% strength (Mk XII Plasma Infused Science Console)
Polaron: +8.1% strength (2pc Mk XI Jem'Hadar)
Polaron: +13.1% strength (2pc Mk XII Jem'Hadar)
Tetryon: +7.6% strength (2pc Apex Predator)
Tetryon: +7.6% strength (2pc Nukara Appropriated Munitions)
The proc discussion is going to vary - Tetryon procs themselves are meaningless against targets without shields, but a Refracting Tetryon proc is doing damage to multiple targets - not just against shields. In some instances, the probability of a proc happening won't compare to running APs because everybody's over the top on CrtH and it's a speed run. There's all sorts of discussions to be had there...
...but in the end, 100 is 100 and 174 is 174...45 is 45, 87 is 87, 130 is 130, etc.
Numbers MEAN nothing in the case of tetryon, they deal less damage, even if the numbers say the opposite. THATS THE FAIL of tetryon weapons. You dont need to make any numbers at all because you are reading something that is mistaken.
Everybody discarded tetryons ages ago, 8 months ago and 2 months ago. Because they are useless, even if they deal the "SAME" damage as other weapon. I really tested it thousands of times. And i dont care about numbers. 90% of the players dont use tetryon, and i must ask "why?". Maybe there is a reason for that?
Cryptic even raised the drop rate of tetryon stuff by A LOT, due to this. We have tetryon drops every seconds, this is not a joke.
Um... since you never seem to provide pictorial evidence of these 'tests' of yours, let me provide a snapshot of the combat log of a CSE run I just did like 5 minutes ago on my Reman. He's flying a freebie Aves-class Dyson Science Destroyer with 1 Refracting Tetryon DHC, 1 refracting Tetryon DC, A Bio Photon Torp, 2 Refracting Tetryon Turrets and the KCB, 3 Mk XI blue Tetryon tac consoles.
Look at the top, the damage my Tetryon DHCs did against the assimilated carrier. Not entirely sure how that number is TRIBBLE damage.
Also, I might take you more seriously if you didn't end pretty much every single sentence with 'lol' as if you were trolling (which I'm more and more convinced you are).
Either you're a troll, then "job well done", or you have a very broken perception, a vivid imagination and your posts are getting more and more unbelievable.
You've just made the step from "I've a seen bigfoot" or "I've seen his footprints" to "I can sense bigfoots presence from a thousand miles away"....
I'm not.
As multiple people have stated earlier:
It doesn't matter if it's a Disruptor, or a Tetryon, or a Protonic weapon.
Identical types of weapons do the same base damage regardless of the energy type.
What DOES differ are the amount of passive buffs which you can stack up for each energy type (as per VirusDancer's post above) and the benefits of different weapon procs in different situations:
+ Plasma and Tetryons are both great against shielded Targets, just like Transphasic Torpedos.
+ Disruptors are great against unshielded Targets; and get exponentially better whenever you have more than just your own energy weapons firing at an enemy.
+ Antiprotons are great against both unshielded and shielded targets; but their bonus only applies to your own energy weaponry.
+ Polarons are great whenever you're stacking Flow Capacitors and trying to completely drop a foe's power settings (Shields is the big one, Aux and Engines can be fun too; and since their weapons will end up dealing less damage to you they're technically good for "tanking")
+ Phasers are great.... whenever all the stars magically align and you actually get the proc you want kicking in at exactly the right time.
Now personally, I tend to like Polarized Disruptors for general gameplay and Nanite Disruptors for extra DPS. But then I like using pets and torps/mines as well as my energy weaponry, and Disruptors pander best to that playstyle. Adding a little extra to my teammates' DPS is a nice additional bonus.
:P
Tetryon and Disrupters do the same base damage so it is you who is misleading everyone and by flat out lying when you say tetryon do minimum damage and tetryon take x10 longer to kill. Both weapons are the same base damage but the extra Tetryon powers push them beyond Disrupters. Can a Disrupters do 10k+ damage per ships to 10+ ships in 1 shot? The answer is no. Can Tetryon do 10k damage per ship to 10+ships in 1 shot the answer is yes. Hence Tetryon can kill faster and do more damage.
Can Disrupters beam overload 2 targets at once? no. Can Tetryon beam overload 2 targets yes.
Anyway I can see the others proved you wrong so no need to continue with the rest of this post.
Tetryon can't either.
Let me clarify: Tetryon WEAPONS can't; but abilities granted by equipment sets can. Two of those abilities just happen to deal Tetryon Damage, so it gets multiplied by your Tac Consoles if you're already stacking Tetryon weaponry (not actually by a huge amount either due to damage stacking mechanics, but whatever)
So what you're actually doing here is comparing a Tetryon build - complete with equipment and set bonuses - to a disruptor build without any equipment or set bonues. And as I already pointed out a few posts ago: you lose an awful lot of other things in order to equip the items needed to get those two set bonus abilities; and they're only good for a single spike of damage every 3 minutes.
High Spike damage powers are useful, but they don't lend themselves to good DPS over time.
I could, for example, make the same argument about (for example) Disruptors and the Javelin weapon of the Guramba Siege Destroyer - which is a very heavy AoE disruptor shot that has only a 60 second cooldown time. Or even something like the Counter-Command 3-set which is an AoE attack that also applies a debuff.
This is correct, but is the effect of a single unique weapon - the Hyper Refracting Beam Array. It does 20% higher DPS than a normal DBB (the first shot refracting to an additional target); so it's main trick is a double Beam Overload. Again: Good Spike damage, poor DPS.
Different Special weapons have different uses. Can Tetryons apply Radiation damage (which ignores shields and is largely unresistable) against an enemy with every shot?
The Hyper DBB is a nice weapon, but it won't beat another energytype build all by itself.
Tetryon builds are perfectly viable; and can be high Spike Damage, but high Spike Damage doesn't automatically translate into high DPS over an entire instance.