Body scale options: adjustments/additions and side effects

crypticjoejing

Greetings Captains,

There have been many requests to increase the range of specific sliders as well as add new ones and it's something we're keen on exploring in our continuing efforts to improve the game.

"Just add a new slider! How is that so hard!?"

Well, usually it isn't easy and/or safe. Potentially every species that doesn't share its data with another species may have to be edited. Some changes will likely impact UI programming and art/layout. Some bones are linked to others in the scale options and it could create undesirable/unpredictable multiplying scale effects when adjusting two seemingly distinct sliders. Potential widespread uniform clipping due to new proportions untested until this point. Broadening the range would automatically change all existing costumes, and everyone here should know how much people dislike their characters changing, even in the most minuscule ways. And a slew of other things that could be affected and go wrong.

But taking it one step at a time, I'm interested your input on the bust slider:

Say we adjust the bust slider allowing smaller bust size as requested enthusiastically by a quite a few players. Great!, right?

Now, what if I tell you we can do that pretty easily! Super awesome, right?

....now, what if I tell you that when we do that every existing female character's bust size will automatically decrease a little...

Not as awesome to a lot of people.

Reason being, the slider is a percentage of a range - if we shift the min size, that changes what everyone's current settings mean to the result seen on your monitors. This would affect player toons specifically, as NPC's already use the full range available.

That said, everyone would be able to go back into the scale options and adjust to make it exactly the same as it was before. Might be reasonable to some people, but that means *a lot* of people having to change *a lot* of costumes.

Again, curious to hear the input on the easy route.

In the mean time, we're also looking into possible ways to achieve the desired effect without affecting current player toons, but this hopefully helps illustrate why things are never quite as easy as they may seem.

centersolace

If it means more options I am okay with fixing my characters.

frostyjones

I thought the whole point of having the bust slider minimum where it was at was to keep people from engaging in ERP with child-like characters? Or to prevent having child-like characters in the already over-sexualized Orion outfits?

I certainly do not want to see anymore of this: http://i.imgur.com/XtmMXks.jpg in Star Trek Online.

Edit: Instead of spending time and resources on the bust slider of all things, why not fix the Marauding reward Bridge Officers to be able to wear something other than the drab default off-duty clothing or miner outfit? Why not add the Mercenary C-Store outfits to the uniform category for KDF and KDF-aligned Romulans? The RoI would be worth it.

baddmoonrizin

Where sliders are concerned:

Is it possible to add an input field where we can manually type in the percentage? It would make fine-tuned adjustments a lot easier I would suspect.

iconians

My official input:

Do the easy way. You know first-hand there are saved costumes based on glitches that have been corrected, but since they can't be edited anymore without losing the glitched effect, that people will not touch them.

I know this seems irrelevant to the topic, but it's why I'm not bothered by you going the easy route.

Because it would require people to edit the bust size (or whatever) on invalid costumes, and get rid of some eyesores when they want to save them.

I'd personally be okay with people needing to re-edit all of their costumes (if they want to be that particular about it) if it meant forcing (or encouraging) people to get rid of glitched/bugged costumes from the past.

obelusdoom

Don't waste your time tweaking the bust slider.The minimum size if fine as is. There are other character creation areas that merit attention first.

However if you're determined I'd say as long as I can go back and fix my character and return it to were it was then I don't have a problem as long as I get prior warning.

genrldestruction

Easy way to calculate new value:
absolute = (position_on_scale*(old_max - old_min)) + old_min; // gives us the value the slider represents.
new_position_on_scale = (absolute-new_min)/(new_max-new_min); // finds what percentage of the new slider scale the absolute should be.

So, just for grins... lets say the old range is from 20 to 80, and the slider is at 20%.
absolute = (.2 * (80-20))
absolute = 12

new range is from 0 to 200
new_position_on_scale = (12-0)/(200-0)
new_position_on_scale = .06, or 6%

cerritourug

I am sorry but I have to said no. I have 10 character with more than 80 costumes each, I dont want to go one by one and spend days working to fix the hard work it took me in the first place.

Maybe I dont know, add a new type of body, but please dont change the hard work that took me making my character.

And maybe if the change of the bust if little I can live with it, my characters dont have it really big, but if today is bust, and next day is hips, and so on, at the end of the day I am going to have a completely different character or I may have to fix them each time you guys add a new slider.

I am really sorry, and I am been selfish, but I have to said no.

genrldestruction

cerritourug wrote: »

I am sorry but I have to said no. I have 10 character with more than 80 costumes each, I dont want to go one by one and spend days working to fix the hard work it took me in the first place.

Maybe I dont know, add a new type of body, but please dont change the hard work that took me making my character.

And maybe if the change of the bust if little I can live with it, my characters dont have it really big, but if today is bust, and next day is hips, and so on, at the end of the day I am going to have a completely different character or I may have to fix them each time you guys add a new slider.

I am really sorry, and I am been selfish, but I have to said no.

It would be simple enough with the math I have provided to update *every* costume on any affected character programmatically. The math should work for any *reasonable* case. If applicable, then players wouldn't see any difference in their character should they lower the minimum.

I'm curious, though. Is the slider position (the percentage) stored in the database, or is the underlying value? Would be a ton simpler for this kind of idea if the value stored was the underlying value instead of the relative position on the slider. Changing the min and max on the slider would have 0 effect on the actual value in the character data then, unless the value was somehow outside of the bounds.

minmacdougal

Heck, people tweak their toons all the time as far as I know; go for it I say. Even if it allows for *ahem* stronger-looking women

jeffel82

What would be nice is a "body template" which could be edited, saved, and applied to each costume, which would do all of the body scaling for the costume without making changes to the actual clothing.

Easier said than done, I know, but it would certainly be helpful for anyone who suddenly decides that their character should noticeably gain/lose a bunch of weight, but that character has multiple outfits to adjust.

genrldestruction

jeffel82 wrote: »

What would be nice is a "body template" which could be edited, saved, and applied to each costume, which would do all of the body scaling for the costume without making changes to the actual clothing.

Easier said than done, I know, but it would certainly be helpful for anyone who suddenly decides that their character should noticeably gain/lose a bunch of weight, but that character has multiple outfits to adjust.

I support this. It is weird to think that I can have my character be 6'5" in one costume and be as thin as a rail and only be 5'9" in another and be... larger around the middle, and then to be able to switch between them at will. Separating the physical parameters of the body from the costumes makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, it's probably like it is now to make minor adjustments for clipping.

centersolace

skollulfr wrote: »

only thing i noticed is that if i rty to make a character fat, they just look pregnant.

Yeah this kinda sucks.

centersolace

jeffel82 wrote: »

What would be nice is a "body template" which could be edited, saved, and applied to each costume, which would do all of the body scaling for the costume without making changes to the actual clothing.

Easier said than done, I know, but it would certainly be helpful for anyone who suddenly decides that their character should noticeably gain/lose a bunch of weight, but that character has multiple outfits to adjust.

That would be hard to RP a changeling though.

druhin

What I would like to see, is a decoupling of Body Appearance, and Costume. A player should be able to set up their characters appearance (body/head options), and those settings should carry over into ANY Costume Slot a person might have. I have about a dozen or so costumes (per character), and it would be a royal pain in the a-- to have to change body settings on each and every costume, if these slider additions go through.

"Simpler" solution for the players, is to have Body options, and Costume options separated. Dunno how much harder it is to do, programming wise.

jodarkrider

Easy route would be.. make body types. Ie, current body type mostly accomodates smaller/more slim female builds. Similar to what you have with head models and complexions. Let people who want to have the old setting by having that setting as default and add up the possibility of smaller bust on the other body setting, which would basicly be copy-pasted, but allowing for smaller scale of bust, which people would have to switch to. That way, most of people's costumes as well as NPC's do not get messed up & we do still get a smaller bust possible.

And I would love to see a smaller setting, that is for sure. Appreciate you for taking your time for posting here and asking too!

jonathanlonehawk

jeffel82 wrote: »

What would be nice is a "body template" which could be edited, saved, and applied to each costume, which would do all of the body scaling for the costume without making changes to the actual clothing.

Easier said than done, I know, but it would certainly be helpful for anyone who suddenly decides that their character should noticeably gain/lose a bunch of weight, but that character has multiple outfits to adjust.

I just adjusted the face on my main with the new facial properties. All I did was adjust one costume/face then saved it. I then swapped to the next uniform, saved it to be sure, loaded the new adjusted uniform in the slot and then loaded the old uniform with the "load outfit only" checkbox checked. Voila, New face on old uniform. Rinse/repeat on all uniform slots. took me about 15 minutes (after the hour I spent adjusting the face :eek: ) to do all 20 costumes I had.

I also agree whole-hardedly with this:

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Where sliders are concerned:

Is it possible to add an input field where we can manually type in the percentage? It would make fine-tuned adjustments a lot easier I would suspect.

It would also make sending information for a race (or if you want to make a cloned fleet) via a fleet website much easier than posting a .jpg that may or may not get corrupted or whatever.

cerritourug

jodarkrider wrote: »

Easy route would be.. make body types!

Agree.. if this can be dane it will be perfect. The current body type leave as it is, but add a new one for other sliders.

genrldestruction

centersolace wrote: »

That would be hard to RP a changeling though.

True, but on the other hand the changelings we have seen (that weren't arrogant, self-important, etc) preferred one form over another when dealing with "solids". Though the whole changeling aspect could be really interesting to expand into its own race/abilities.

druhin wrote: »

What I would like to see, is a decoupling of Body Appearance, and Costume. A player should be able to set up their characters appearance (body/head options), and those settings should carry over into ANY Costume Slot a person might have. I have about a dozen or so costumes (per character), and it would be a royal pain in the a-- to have to change body settings on each and every costume, if these slider additions go through.

"Simpler" solution for the players, is to have Body options, and Costume options separated. Dunno how much harder it is to do, programming wise.

Both those are talking about the same thing. We still run into centersolace's issue of making it more difficult to RP a changeling.

jodarkrider wrote: »

Easy route would be.. make body types. Ie, current body type mostly accomodates smaller/more slim female builds. Similar to what you have with head models and complexions. Let people who want to have the old setting by having that setting as default and add up the possibility of smaller bust on the other body setting, which would basicly be copy-pasted, but allowing for smaller scale of bust, which people would have to switch to. That way, most of people's costumes as well as NPC's do not get messed up & we do still get a smaller bust possible.

And I would love to see a smaller setting, that is for sure. Appreciate you for taking your time for posting here and asking too!

This would, in my estimation, take more work than separating the body parameters from the costume parameters, which in my mind is the "ideal" solution. I suppose there is an even easier way to handle this:

Edit costume. Check and see if any of the body parameters have changed. Prompt the user if they would like to propagate the change across all costumes.

centersolace

genrldestruction wrote: »

True, but on the other hand the changelings we have seen (that weren't arrogant, self-important, etc) preferred one form over another when dealing with "solids". Though the whole changeling aspect could be really interesting to expand into its own race/abilities.

Now what people do is make an alien with a bunch of different costumes. There was an old friend of mine who made a basic "founder" body and then copied all of her friends appearances and went around impersonating her fleetmates. It was really funny.

genrldestruction

centersolace wrote: »

Now what people do is make an alien with a bunch of different costumes. There was an old friend of mine who made a basic "founder" body and then copied all of her friends appearances and went around impersonating her fleetmates. It was really funny.

I was meaning more like "special" shape shifting abilities: turn into a bird or mugato or something like that. And I imagine that the above only works within gender. Could have a "mimic" ability that changes your form into that of your target, and if it is an enemy target apply a confuse to other enemies.

senatorvreenak

Absolutely not, no no NO.

I am still furious with you guys for making a mess of my characters faces with Season 9. :mad:
In fact, you have changed the geometry settings in such a way that its now "impossible" for me to make my toons look exactly like they did before.

Any changes that alter the appearance of "existing" characters is simply unacceptable.
If you want to introduce change then it should be as a brand new body/face type with new parameters, old ones must be left alone.

centersolace

senatorvreenak wrote: »

Absolutely not, no no NO.

I am still furious with you guys for making a mess of my characters faces with Season 9. :mad:
In fact, you have changed the geometry settings in such a way that its now "impossible" for me to make my toons look exactly like they did before.

Any changes that alter the appearance of "existing" characters is simply unacceptable.
If you want to introduce change then it should be as a brand new body/face type with new parameters, old ones must be left alone.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few! PULL THE LEVER CRYPTIC!!!!!

mvp333

senatorvreenak wrote: »

Absolutely not, no no NO.

I am still furious with you guys for making a mess of my characters faces with Season 9. :mad:
In fact, you have changed the geometry settings in such a way that its now "impossible" for me to make my toons look exactly like they did before.

Any changes that alter the appearance of "existing" characters is simply unacceptable.
If you want to introduce change then it should be as a brand new body/face type with new parameters, old ones must be left alone.

I am sorry, Senator, but I'm afraid that you are what most people would call a whiner. And indeed, the needs of the many outweigh the minor wants of the few. Now stop messing up the timeline and go blow up in a Tiercel shuttle on the way back to Romulus like you're supposed to.

cerritourug

mvp333 wrote: »

I am sorry, Senator, but I'm afraid that you are what most people would call a whiner. And indeed, the needs of the many outweigh the minor wants of the few. Now stop messing up the timeline and go blow up in a Tiercel shuttle on the way back to Romulus like you're supposed to.

And who said you are the many? At the moment I have seen no one supporting the change on our character just for adding a "less TRIBBLE slider".

The question is, does the game needs that change on the slider? I dont think so, not at the cost of destroying a lot of work done.

jodarkrider

cerritourug wrote: »

And who said you are the many? At the moment I have seen no one supporting the change on our character just for adding a "less TRIBBLE slider".

The question is, does the game needs that change on the slider? I dont think so, not at the cost of destroying a lot of work done.

I do support smaller boob slider with passion, always did, as I always disliked/hated the fact I am forced to have these rather large things on, despite of supposedly 'minimum' setting... that being said, I still believe it should be done... although, I wish it could be done in a way nobody gets hurt. If people can set their character the way they were before, then I see no harm done & more variety is in the game.

lordhavelock

Speaking of sliders, can we please have the Gorn size sliders back? :rolleyes:

As for existing sliders or adding new sliders, why can't the program make adjustments (using something like Genrldestruction's math)?

Other options given, like new body types, or the ability to save/load body (instead of just costume) would be nice.

Most of my toons have only a handful of uniforms, a few have a lot of uniforms (~100). Depending on the changes, it might be worth it to go back and fix. Though it would suck if I have one of those "bugged" costumes (not sure if I do) that I would be unable to update.

leviathan99

crypticjoejing wrote: »

Greetings Captains,

There have been many requests to increase the range of specific sliders as well as add new ones and it's something we're keen on exploring in our continuing efforts to improve the game.

"Just add a new slider! How is that so hard!?"

Well, usually it isn't easy and/or safe. Potentially every species that doesn't share its data with another species may have to be edited. Some changes will likely impact UI programming and art/layout. Some bones are linked to others in the scale options and it could create undesirable/unpredictable multiplying scale effects when adjusting two seemingly distinct sliders. Potential widespread uniform clipping due to new proportions untested until this point. Broadening the range would automatically change all existing costumes, and everyone here should know how much people dislike their characters changing, even in the most minuscule ways. And a slew of other things that could be affected and go wrong.

But taking it one step at a time, I'm interested your input on the bust slider:

Say we adjust the bust slider allowing smaller bust size as requested enthusiastically by a quite a few players. Great!, right?

Now, what if I tell you we can do that pretty easily! Super awesome, right?

....now, what if I tell you that when we do that every existing female character's bust size will automatically decrease a little...

Not as awesome to a lot of people.

Reason being, the slider is a percentage of a range - if we shift the min size, that changes what everyone's current settings mean to the result seen on your monitors. This would affect player toons specifically, as NPC's already use the full range available.

That said, everyone would be able to go back into the scale options and adjust to make it exactly the same as it was before. Might be reasonable to some people, but that means *a lot* of people having to change *a lot* of costumes.

Again, curious to hear the input on the easy route.

In the mean time, we're also looking into possible ways to achieve the desired effect without affecting current player toons, but this hopefully helps illustrate why things are never quite as easy as they may seem.

What if you had an alternate torso?

The alternate torso is a copy of the normal torso (uses the EXACT same geo or a duplicate of it) but has a different set of slider ranges.

jodarkrider

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

What if you had an alternate torso?

The alternate torso is a copy of the normal torso (uses the EXACT same geo or a duplicate of it) but has a different set of slider ranges.

That is what I have been suggesting too... basicly, just like you have facial complexions/types, but done with torso....