I know that a lot of players aren't active on the forum. But sometimes you must make a decision.
I will send you my Tovan Khev and all of my ugly Alien Boffs.
Geko made a decision: he doesn't like kitbash ships. Some people just do not like that decision.
I will take Tovan and the alien Boffs. I an weird that way.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Here is what it boils down to, Geko doesnt like it, it doesnt get added or if it does it doesnt get fair treatment, aka Galaxy R. He needs to seperate out his own feelings on the issue and do what a good dev should.
I personally am not a fan of TOS i was raised watching TNG. That said, while I have no deep attachment to the Connie, OTHERS DO. People should be able to fly and compete at endgame with any ship from their faction. Why? Cause its options, more diversity the better. The fleet ship system was a step in the right direction, but Boff seating is still a hinderance.
I can personally hate a canon ship design all I want, but as a player/dev while "I" might never fly that ugly hunk of scrap metal, some players might love and adore it, and THEY are who you make the game for. Telling people what they can or can not fly, what they can or can not do aka time gated is bad move.
Games are meant to be enjoyed, played the way you like, when you like, how you like. Honestly cryptic has hit a wall with boff slots, the last 3 pack showed it when they had to add transforming boff slots to come up with something different. Time to scrap the locked boff layout system and start over. Maybe then those who love the connie/kitbash can get their ships to play/compete.
Its as simple as making all stations uni, who cares if someone uses all tac stations that guy will get dusted with no heals and overlapping cooldowns. Who cares if a cruiser has Cmd tac, he loses a ton of survivablity for it. Boff abilitys are balanced that way, we dont need locked stations to maintain it when we are limited to so many boff abilities per ship.
Make the console layout/boff stations modable, I dont care if a T5 connie has cmd tac and 5 tac consoles, he can come out swinging and go down hard like any other ship loaded like that. Set it where we have set number of consoles per ship, aka 10 for fleet, make it where you can have only 5 max of any 1 type like current. We now have same 12 boff power limit, same console limit, same game balance as before, but we can choose what we want our ship to do. Ships still have all their health, speed, turnrate, etc etc to make them unique aka cruiser escort etc.
Cryptic can sell new ship/skins, access to new boff abilites, etc etc tons of diff and new ways to make money. Its a win for us all.
One more and this will converse you to my side: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
So who is the many in this situation? The guy who wants more Ferengi stuff? The guy who wants playable Borg? The guy who wants a T5 Connie? The guy who wants barrel-rolls for Escorts? The guy who wants skants? The guy who wants Jem Bugs to be sold in the Lobi Store? The guy who wants...
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Because the people who come to the forum generally represent the ends: those most happy, major Trek fans, and those most unhappy. It does not reflect the vast majority in the middle. As has been said to you before.
And when did anyone say 3,000 was 10%? Only an idiot would think there are only 30,000 people playing STO.
Edit: was not implying you were an idiot. Just making a point that only an idiot would think the FTP game only has 30,000 players.
Of course you weren't calling me an idiot.
That would be rude.
I've read a lot of quite artful sophistry on these boards, as to why the opinions expressed within them can be safely ignored by the developers.
Either we're too small a percentage to matter, or we're only representative of a small range of opinion, or some other plausible sounding reason.
It's certainly true that when polarising decisions are made (and such things to have to happen from time to time) these boards light up.
Thus, the conclusion that we only represent extreme opinions is semi-plausible.
However, thats a bit like saying elections get people all riled up about politics, so we should ignore those who have an opinion.
These boards do see more use when Cryptic do things that divide opinion, but thats not a proof that forum posters only represent the extremes.
That's just a proof of a decision that divides opinion.
And there is one other characteristic of a forum poster, perhaps absent from players who do not use these fora.
We care.
We care enough about a game, that we'll come to its forum and express opinions.
And, if it were possible to extract the metric, I'd bet dollars to donuts that those who care about a game spend way more on it than those who don't.
Forum opinions should matter, not be belittled as irrelevant at every possible opportunity.
Forum opinions should matter, not be belittled as irrelevant at every possible opportunity.
No one is saying your opinion does not matter. I am saying that your opinion does not matter any more then mine does; and my opinion does not matter any more then Orangeitis' does; and Orangeitis' opinion does not matter more then Kirk2390's, etc.
We are not unified in our opinions on any subject. 100 people saying I want X is no-more valid then 100 people saying I do not want X but instead want Y. The wanters do not automatically become more important simply because they are the wanters.
You cannot say: "Listen to what I want, but not what anyone else wants!"
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
No one is saying your opinion does not matter. I am saying that your opinion does not matter any more then mine does; and my opinion does not matter any more then Orangeitis' does; and Orangeitis' opinion does not matter more then Kirk2390's, etc.
We are not unified in our opinions on any subject. 100 people saying I want X is no-more valid then 100 people saying I do not want X but instead want Y. The wanters do not automatically become more important simply because they are the wanters.
Ok, I'll concede that a given, single opinion is as valid as any other given, single opinion.
It's the aggregrate that matters.
I'm not suggesting that forum opinion ought to replace Gecko......entirely.
I'm suggesting that opinions in these boards should act as a kind of warning signal.
Forum tears could be seen as the creaking of a rope before its about to fail, rather than meaningless bleating about stuff that individuals want.
And, of course, the real problem will happen when these fora stop complaining about things in the game.
Because, at that point, people will have just stopped even trying to be heard.
People will have stopped caring, and that will shut more wallets than any number of grindaversary and rep buff/nerfs.
Ultimately in game design, the only opinion that matters us the game designers who have to make and maintain the video game. This means making sure you have people on things that will actually be good for the health of the game.
That may or may not mean listening to opinions of players who post. Just because something is posted doesn't make it a good idea for the game. Doesn't matter how may people you get to post in support of it.
So who is the many in this situation? The guy who wants more Ferengi stuff? The guy who wants playable Borg? The guy who wants a T5 Connie? The guy who wants barrel-rolls for Escorts? The guy who wants skants? The guy who wants Jem Bugs to be sold in the Lobi Store? The guy who wants...
No I and some others just WOULD like to have the 359 ships in it. But I did not start this thread and I will neeeever say something again.
I'm not suggesting that forum opinion ought to replace Gecko......entirely.
I'm suggesting that opinions in these boards should act as a kind of warning signal.
And while I can understand that I can only say that people can be ticked-off for any number of reasons that really have nothing to do with any particular thing in the game.
There are people who hate STO, and have admitted to hating STO, but still post because their fun comes from being a spoiler to others who like the game. There are people ticked off about one thing who take it out on everything else in the game.
If every person on the forum were rational the idea of a warning signal might mean something, but everyone poster is not rational and everyone has their own personal agenda - they want what they want.
But even then, a small group of vocal people not liking something does not mean there is an actual problem. Sometimes what could be perceived as a warning signal is just someone crying wolf and others jumping on the bandwagon. Other times it is just the way the system needs to work even if it makes no sense to someone.
The Devs cannot act on everyone's pet peeve. They have X amount of man-hours available to them. The fact that there is a 20 page thread about skants does not mean the Devs should drop everything they are doing and get skants into the game. Likewise, the fact that some people want the Freedom Class in the game does not mean Geko should drop everything he is working on to get a Freedom out the door.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
And while I can understand that I can only say that people can be ticked-off for any number of reasons that really have nothing to do with any particular thing in the game.
There are people who hate STO, and have admitted to hating STO, but still post because their fun comes from being a spoiler to others who like the game. There are people ticked off about one thing who take it out on everything else in the game.
If every person on the forum were rational the idea of a warning signal might mean something, but everyone poster is not rational and everyone has their own personal agenda - they want what they want.
But even then, a small group of vocal people not liking something does not mean there is an actual problem. Sometimes what could be perceived as a warning signal is just someone crying wolf and others jumping on the bandwagon. Other times it is just the way the system needs to work even if it makes no sense to someone.
The Devs cannot act on everyone's pet peeve. They have X amount of man-hours available to them. The fact that there is a 20 page thread about skants does not mean the Devs should drop everything they are doing and get skants into the game. Likewise, the fact that some people want the Freedom Class in the game does not mean Geko should drop everything he is working on to get a Freedom out the door.
your assuming that almost everyone posting on the forums hates sto and wants to see it burn.. your mistaking that for people who are sick of watching one of the biggest ip's on the planet not get the attention it deserves.. further more.. in terms of games, this game is lackluster.. sure, it looks pretty, but honestly, this is the first time ive ever felt like im running in circles in a game.. lol..
getting beyond that.. while I have no love for a large portion of the dev team, I do not think them completely inept in being able to determine what is good useable ideas and comments, and being able to tell when someone is jaded..
further more, we are talking about ships.. were not trying to say how they should be built, or that they should be the bees knees and break the game (like the scimitar). we are simply voicing that we would like to see these canon "STAR TREK SHIPS" in this "STAR TREK GAME" expecially since given what was already seen on screen.. all of these ships would still be well within their refit and service age for the timeline in the game..
cosmic, you keep telling everyone your not trying to tell anyone what is good or isn't good, or what they should think is good or isn't good.. you keep saying that your just trying to be a voice of reason.. we get it.. you don't like the ships.. move on.. it makes no sense for you to keep telling people they are wrong.
I have seen a ton of great ideas floating around in this thread, making compromise with the lord overseers (gecko) thinks is good trek and bad trek.. people saying, build new 2409 designs that can work with them.. its not hurting anyone to have a canon design mixed in with a newer 2409 design.
again, this is a star trek game, is it not.. were those not ships seen in star trek. would you not sumise that since every other trekkie approved game has had them added at one point or another, (ie, bridge commander, and other modable games) that it would make sense to add them, cause the metrics from those games show they were worth developing..
Geko is probably one of the biggest Trek fans at Cryptic. I mean, now many people get married on the bridge of the Enterprise? But that does not mean everyone gets everything they want just by screaming "canon" over and over. Most of the ships asked for have less then 30 seconds of screen time to their careers. They're not that important to canon.
And most of Cryptic's focus seems to be on alien ships that are usable by all Factions, which is a good thing else the Feds would be the only ones getting anything.
sometimes it amazes me how you truly do not understand the star trek world (as a fan).. those ships, might have only had 30 seconds of "screen" time.. but.. that's more than any cryptic design.. further more.. it is implied that fleets of those vessels were built.. they were not the only ones.. they mention the classes left and right on the show.
books have been written around these ships.. online trek roleplayers consistently use these ships. some of them have been used in almost everygame made (weather they were later addons, patches, or what not).
there are not just one, but several websites dedicated to these ships, and what they are, could be, and what not.. people have spent hours on ex astris, or other sites talking about these ships.. there is even an interview I watched a while back where they were talking to the people who were in charge of making best of both worlds.. they said they were not ready for the amount of feedback and interest they got in the ships.. they said they figured no one would have cared, as they were just wrecks.. but that people were asking for studio pics and what the ships sizes, and armaments, and crew compliment were...
like you love to say in this thread.. just because a few people like or dislike something, doesn't mean they are or are not viable.. these ships most certainly are viable.. any trek fan knows that..
as far as your complaint about people yelling canon.. that's because this game is based off of a show. a show where we saw these things.. and this is a game that supposably wants to keep canon intact (im laughing as I write this lol).. but it is important to have a healthy mix of canon and non canon..
you wouldn't make a my little pony game with jet fighters instead of ponies.. lol..
trying to say that star trek fans shouldn't want their favorite star trek ships in game is kinda f'd up..
as far as you saying people are jaded on these forums.. its not because people hate star trek.. its because people like gecko drive the star trek fans crazy with some of the bs they have done in this game.. and some of the statements they make..
your assuming that almost everyone posting on the forums hates sto and wants to see it burn..
I am not making any such assumption at all. But I guarantee that if you start a negative thread about hating STO or how much Cryptic sucks I can PM you the name of the dozen posters who will post in that thread. Do not fool yourself into thinking there are not posters on this forum who have an agenda against STO.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
sometimes it amazes me how you truly do not understand the star trek world (as a fan)..
You completely missed the point of my post.
From a business standpoint it is better for Cryptic to make ships usable by 3 Factions then to create ships for individual Factions - especially when those ships are extremely obscure - where a large percentage of the buyers have know idea if the ship is canon or not.
You error in the belief that the majority of people playing STO are avid Trekkers. They are not. Most of the people playing STO have a casual understanding of Trek and could not tell you what a Freedom Class ship is or where it was from if you offered them a million dollars for the correct answer.
Cryptic cannot put all of its resources into making obscure things that only benefit a fraction of a fraction of the fan-base, whether it is canon or not. Doing that in any business is a sure way to destruction. When we are talking about something like the Freedom Class we are talking the obscure of the obscure canon.
The fact that something is canon does not mean it will sell well enough to justify the hundreds of man-hours that went into making it - and that is time lost that could have been spent making something that would have sold better even if it was not canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
From a business standpoint it is better for Cryptic to make ships usable by 3 Factions then to create ships for individual Factions - especially when those ships are extremely obscure - where a large percentage of the buyers have know idea if the ship is canon or not.
You error in the belief that the majority of people playing STO are avid Trekkers. They are not. Most of the people playing STO have a casual understanding of Trek and could not tell you what a Freedom Class ship is or where it was from if you offered them a million dollars for the correct answer.
Cryptic cannot put all of its resources into making obscure things that only benefit a fraction of a fraction of the fan-base, whether it is canon or not. Doing that in any business is a sure way to destruction. When we are talking about something like the Freedom Class we are talking the obscure of the obscure canon.
The fact that something is canon does not mean it will sell well enough to justify the hundreds of man-hours that went into making it - and that is time lost that could have been spent making something that would have sold better even if it was not canon.
But that is not our fan concern, isn't it? Cryptic chose to make a game called Star Trek Online. Then they decided to use an TRIBBLE-backwards one-way of a business model. That's their fault, not ours. And a lot of fans who pla this game because it is "Star Trek Online" ask for stuff that is, well, "Star Trek". If Cryptic cannot provide basic assets like things we saw in the show, in a matter that is at least halfway consistent with established lore, the enterprise "Star Trek Online" is a failure. And only because they choose a "what will people pay money for next?" approach doesn't mean that the fans will or should stop asking for content that is meaningful to the IP.
The hate on STO you mentioned - what I wrote above is exactly what my "beef" with this game is. In reflection of the IP almost any single choice Cryptic made in it's development is in my opinion wrong because it goes against basic things established by the shows - this starts with the very basic inventory/character build system and only in it's very end reaches things like "story", "content" and "ships". In fact I personally would say that if any trace of Star Trek would be removed from the game it would be a "better" game. It would feel better and not so cringeworthy almost all the time because there is so many "minor" and "major" stuff that just itches in the back of my head. I wouldn't play the game if that were to happen, because the basic, generic gameplay wouldn't be enough to hold me, though. Quite ironic, isn't it - I am still here and play for some inexplicably reason. I would love STO because it had so much potential. So much wasted potential. But I see ways to redeem quite a few "mistakes" and I as well as others will continue to make suggestions and ask questions about that, I think.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Kitbashes are not particularly meaningful to the IP. Not enough that its worth the developer time to put them in since most look horrid.
Doesn't matter.
Cryptic keep making up random stuff anyway; putting in the kitbashes means they can continue to make random stuff, and put in canon ships that fans of the obscure happy. The original ships would only represent one variant of each type after all; Cryptic are free to make better looking alternate costumes for them.
Cryptic keep making up random stuff anyway; putting in the kitbashes means they can continue to make random stuff, and put in canon ships that fans of the obscure happy. The original ships would only represent one variant of each type after all; Cryptic are free to make better looking alternate costumes for them.
The random stuff they make up looks more Star Trek than most of the kitbashes do.
Seriously, some of the kitbashes are fine but others should be buried and forgotten as ever having existed.
The random stuff they make up looks more Star Trek than most of the kitbashes do.
Seriously, some of the kitbashes are fine but others should be buried and forgotten as ever having existed.
No arguments there (I'm looking at you DS9), but there's nothing particularly wrong with the Wolf 359 ones.
The New Orleans is a perfectly good and reasonably conventional, ship.
The Freedom represents a known design lineage of single nacelle ships (and I'm not even counting the Kelvin, though I suppose I should).
The Challenger is let down only by the submarine conning tower it has for an upper nacelle pylon (seriously, just google images of the 'Hayden class' for an idea of how good a ship of that configuration could look; it's fan made of course, but it proves the point nicely).
And the Niagara... well, OK the Niagara is an odd duck I'll admit; but it's amazing how much better she looks if you just swap out the pylons for a back swept design that sits further up the hull (and she looks fantastic from the front even unmodified IMO).
It's people asking for the Yeager that baffle me; but to each their own I guess.
From a business standpoint it is better for Cryptic to make ships usable by 3 Factions then to create ships for individual Factions - especially when those ships are extremely obscure - where a large percentage of the buyers have know idea if the ship is canon or not.
You error in the belief that the majority of people playing STO are avid Trekkers. They are not. Most of the people playing STO have a casual understanding of Trek and could not tell you what a Freedom Class ship is or where it was from if you offered them a million dollars for the correct answer.
Cryptic cannot put all of its resources into making obscure things that only benefit a fraction of a fraction of the fan-base, whether it is canon or not. Doing that in any business is a sure way to destruction. When we are talking about something like the Freedom Class we are talking the obscure of the obscure canon.
The fact that something is canon does not mean it will sell well enough to justify the hundreds of man-hours that went into making it - and that is time lost that could have been spent making something that would have sold better even if it was not canon.
I can half see your point.. but.. this game is about star trek.. not about anything else.. cryptic has lost a good portion of the "trekkies" because they didn't pay more attention to being canon, and trying to make a good "trek" game. I am apart of several star trek fan clubs and online forums and what not.. a majority of the trekkies on these sites have given up on sto, cause it just got silly, wasn't paying attention to canon, and didn't address the trekkies needs and wants.. instead, they alienated most of the star trek fans, and started getting silly, which attracted more non trek fans.. my friends list has hundreds of people on it who were die hard trekkies, that have not logge din in 2-3 years..
and no one knows how well these ships will do.. they might be obscure by trek standards, but a freedom would probably do well with the non trek fans alike.. no one knows.. with your logic, I can say that any cryptic design is a waste of time, its obscure, and they shouldn't waste their time on something that isn't a sure thing..
and no, I did not error in the belief that most people playing sto are avid trekkers, I know they are not.. as I know most star trek fans were smarter than me and jumped ship.. my best friend whom I miss in this game is one such trekker, and he comes over and checks it out on my comp everyonce in a while, sees the stupid stuff they are doing (like the risa corvette, or when you warp into sol system there is usually more scimitars, galors, bug ships, jemhadar dreads, and other alien ships there than actual federation ships) and says hes glad hes not back..
im simply saying, that a portion of the remaining trek fans would want to see it, and I bet a large portion of the non trek player base would be interested in some of these ships.. like I said, if these ships are too obscure for development time, then so arnt cryptic designs.. at least the obscure ships have a current fallowing.
and again, this is a star trek game, these are star trek ships we are talking about.. its not like were asking for an f22 to be added to the game as a fighter..
Kitbashes are not particularly meaningful to the IP. Not enough that its worth the developer time to put them in since most look horrid.
dude, wrong.. these kit bashes in question are not full kitbashes.. not like some of the stuff already in game..
the niagra only has the engines and star drive section of another existing ship. everything else is custom made..
the challenger only has the engines and the saucer of an existing ship, everything else is custom built for it..
the only one that is arguably a full on kit bash is the freedom.
the springfield class is a pretty far cry from a kit bash..
the new Orleans is a kit bash, but there was a lot of changes made to the existing galaxy model pieces that it gives it an entirely different look.
and as far as them not being meaningfull to the ip, like I said, do some internet searches, they were meaningfull to star trek fans, they were put in almost every other star trek game, if not by the company, than by fans who took the time to make them.. there is endless debates about these ships and what their functions are on the internet.. and there are interviews where they talk about how the creators of them were not ready for the amount of interest they drew..
not to mention, these ships shown at wolf 359 were mass produced, its not like all of them were prototypes lol.. these ships made up the backbone of the fleet in tng.
and no. most cryptic designs look more akin to anime, or other sci fi genres than they do trek.. believe me, there is one or two good 2409 ships, but for the most part, they tried to make them look tooo fancy. they tried to incorporate other designs from other shows into them.. I see bits of Andromeda in some designs. I see bits of stargate, and battlestar galactica. very little trek.. aside from blue engines with red buzzard collectors, and a deflector dish..
I can half see your point.. but.. this game is about star trek.. not about anything else..
This game will not be about anything if Cryptic throw away all of its money creating items that do not sell. At a certain point even you need to realize that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The few who know what a Freedom Class ship is and will buy it will not justify the costs going into it. It does not matter if it is canon or not. This is about keeping a business solvent.
There is a reason why the KDF have gotten very few C-Store items. It has nothing to do with canon and everything to do with the belief that enough people will not buy the items to justify the time and cost in making them as frequently.
The more I read your posts the more I see someone who is just completely burned out on STO. You tried to play through the frustration and it only made you angry, and now you cannot shake the anger. This game is never going to be what YOU want it to be. It is never going to be what I want it to be - and we both, probably, want different things. You either need to accept that or it is going to swallow your sanity.
Take the advice of all the Trek fans you have stated have left and go yourself. Take a long break and clear away all that anger. Then come back and just realize that STO is just a Trek-based game offering a few hours of fun rather then the most important thing in anyone's life.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
No arguments there (I'm looking at you DS9), but there's nothing particularly wrong with the Wolf 359 ones.
The New Orleans is a perfectly good and reasonably conventional, ship.
The Freedom represents a known design lineage of single nacelle ships (and I'm not even counting the Kelvin, though I suppose I should).
The Challenger is let down only by the submarine conning tower it has for an upper nacelle (seriously, just google images of the 'Hayden class' for an idea of how good a ship of that configuration could look; it's fan made of course, but it proves the point nicely).
And the Niagara... well, OK the Niagara is an odd duck I'll admit; but it's amazing how much better she looks if you just swap out the pylons for a back swept design that sits further up the hull (and she looks fantastic from the front even unmodified IMO).
It's people asking for the Yeager that baffle me; but to each their own I guess.
The only one that I think would be worth time is the New Orleans. The rest...yeah not so much. But again, this is my opinion and I think that Cryptics done better than most of the kitbashes, even the 359 ones. Yes some of their designs are odd (looking at you Imperial) but the rest look better than most of the kitbashes used through TNG and DS9.
dude, wrong.. these kit bashes in question are not full kitbashes.. not like some of the stuff already in game..
They are still kitbashes. And yes, I know what these ones look like. Most Cryptic designs look better and fit Star Trek better than the ones listed here (examples of ones I think are better are the New Orleans and the Cheyenne that is already in game). The rest are either TRIBBLE or just old models the studio had lying around. Don't even get me started on the DS9 ones...
This game will not be about anything if Cryptic throw away all of its money creating items that do not sell. At a certain point even you need to realize that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The few who know what a Freedom Class ship is and will buy it will not justify the costs going into it. It does not matter if it is canon or not. This is about keeping a business solvent.
There is a reason why the KDF have gotten very few C-Store items. It has nothing to do with canon and everything to do with the belief that enough people will not buy the items to justify the time and cost in making them as frequently.
The more I read your posts the more I see someone who is just completely burned out on STO. You tried to play through the frustration and it only made you angry, and now you cannot shake the anger. This game is never going to be what YOU want it to be. It is never going to be what I want it to be - and we both, probably, want different things. You either need to accept that or it is going to swallow your sanity.
Take the advice of all the Trek fans you have stated have left and go yourself. Take a long break and clear away all that anger. Then come back and just realize that STO is just a Trek-based game offering a few hours of fun rather then the most important thing in anyone's life.
oh believe me I do take breaks.. I take 1-3 months here and there im actually in my 2cnd month back from a break. lol.. and I would quit if this wasn't the only thing trek..
however, what your trying to tell me right now, is that you believe only a certain number of star trek fans would like these ships.. that there is no way any of these would garner any interest from the non trek fans playing the game? cause that's what it sounds like..
let me tell you something.. this game is so starved for content (and I now believe they do this on purpose) that everyone just jumps up and buys everything weather they want it or not.. cause its something new.. the literally could release a mr. hanky the xmas poo ship with boff stations and everyone would go nuts for it..
also, you believe that these ships would take tons of time and money to make.. that is not so.. the return these ships would give them, while maybe not on a scimitar scale, would get them a profit.. again, my buddy is a 3d content designer.. he said it would only take a few days to make models of each ship, and if they stay away from the hunger of putting power creap consoles in them, it would only take a mear day to have them ready for release. he makes character models that have to have full movement at all joints and what not, and it takes him less than a week.
further more, I believe that some of these skins already exist.. when stahl put the niagra and the new Orleans in the engineering reports, I would assume that the ship designers went ahead and mocked them up. the ship designers themselves have even said that canon designs are easy, and take very little time to mock up. so half the work is done.. (yes I know stahl isn't in control anymore, im just saying I bet at least the niagra and the new Orleans are fleshed out and more than half way towards being useable.).
just throw hard points on them, and a boff layout, and their stats, and boom.. your making it sound like it takes months of every hand on deck to make a ship.. when it doesn't..
and no one is saying that all of these ships need to come out tomorrow all together.. it would be nice to see all of them come out over say a year or so.. space them out..
and no offense cosmic, but if you think im jaded, I am. but the impression I get of you (and a few of the others) is that you know everything. you constantly condescend people for having an opinion, and constantly sit on your high horses waving the your wrong stick at everyone. I too used to have thousands of posts, I used to talk to some of you when we were in beta, or shortly after. ive even gone head to head with stahl and other devs (weather arguing or joking with them). I took a break the first time they decided to reset the server lol.. but since then I did realize a lot of my posts were more out of anger than anything, so I read almost everything, I only choose to post in what matters to me..
this matters to me.. I havnt gotten a whole lot out of this game that I have wanted.. and the few things (like the nebula) that they did put in, well the messed them up.. lol.. since stahl announced that the niagra was indeed on the drawing board, I was tickled pink.. love that ship. and I have been waiting since then.. to no avail.. once again, the game lets me down, in favor of ships like the risan corvette, (that no one uses) or hirogen ships.. (you know cause Starfleet always puts enemy ships in service lol).
and I know from the several dozen threads on this topic, that these ships do indeed have enough support to make the juice worth the squeeze.. Christ, its had enough press here on the forums that gecko and others are being asked about them on podcast interviews..
you cant tell me its about money, cause its not. they determined once already that these ships were viable enough to put some of them on the drawing board.. and lets look at it this way, well go 50/50.. meaning if we meet in the middle of our argument, 50 % of the player base will like them, and 50% wont..
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I will take Tovan and the alien Boffs. I an weird that way.
One more and this will converse you to my side: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
I personally am not a fan of TOS i was raised watching TNG. That said, while I have no deep attachment to the Connie, OTHERS DO. People should be able to fly and compete at endgame with any ship from their faction. Why? Cause its options, more diversity the better. The fleet ship system was a step in the right direction, but Boff seating is still a hinderance.
I can personally hate a canon ship design all I want, but as a player/dev while "I" might never fly that ugly hunk of scrap metal, some players might love and adore it, and THEY are who you make the game for. Telling people what they can or can not fly, what they can or can not do aka time gated is bad move.
Games are meant to be enjoyed, played the way you like, when you like, how you like. Honestly cryptic has hit a wall with boff slots, the last 3 pack showed it when they had to add transforming boff slots to come up with something different. Time to scrap the locked boff layout system and start over. Maybe then those who love the connie/kitbash can get their ships to play/compete.
Its as simple as making all stations uni, who cares if someone uses all tac stations that guy will get dusted with no heals and overlapping cooldowns. Who cares if a cruiser has Cmd tac, he loses a ton of survivablity for it. Boff abilitys are balanced that way, we dont need locked stations to maintain it when we are limited to so many boff abilities per ship.
Make the console layout/boff stations modable, I dont care if a T5 connie has cmd tac and 5 tac consoles, he can come out swinging and go down hard like any other ship loaded like that. Set it where we have set number of consoles per ship, aka 10 for fleet, make it where you can have only 5 max of any 1 type like current. We now have same 12 boff power limit, same console limit, same game balance as before, but we can choose what we want our ship to do. Ships still have all their health, speed, turnrate, etc etc to make them unique aka cruiser escort etc.
Cryptic can sell new ship/skins, access to new boff abilites, etc etc tons of diff and new ways to make money. Its a win for us all.
Of course you weren't calling me an idiot.
That would be rude.
I've read a lot of quite artful sophistry on these boards, as to why the opinions expressed within them can be safely ignored by the developers.
Either we're too small a percentage to matter, or we're only representative of a small range of opinion, or some other plausible sounding reason.
It's certainly true that when polarising decisions are made (and such things to have to happen from time to time) these boards light up.
Thus, the conclusion that we only represent extreme opinions is semi-plausible.
However, thats a bit like saying elections get people all riled up about politics, so we should ignore those who have an opinion.
These boards do see more use when Cryptic do things that divide opinion, but thats not a proof that forum posters only represent the extremes.
That's just a proof of a decision that divides opinion.
And there is one other characteristic of a forum poster, perhaps absent from players who do not use these fora.
We care.
We care enough about a game, that we'll come to its forum and express opinions.
And, if it were possible to extract the metric, I'd bet dollars to donuts that those who care about a game spend way more on it than those who don't.
Forum opinions should matter, not be belittled as irrelevant at every possible opportunity.
We are not unified in our opinions on any subject. 100 people saying I want X is no-more valid then 100 people saying I do not want X but instead want Y. The wanters do not automatically become more important simply because they are the wanters.
You cannot say: "Listen to what I want, but not what anyone else wants!"
Ok, I'll concede that a given, single opinion is as valid as any other given, single opinion.
It's the aggregrate that matters.
I'm not suggesting that forum opinion ought to replace Gecko......entirely.
I'm suggesting that opinions in these boards should act as a kind of warning signal.
Forum tears could be seen as the creaking of a rope before its about to fail, rather than meaningless bleating about stuff that individuals want.
And, of course, the real problem will happen when these fora stop complaining about things in the game.
Because, at that point, people will have just stopped even trying to be heard.
People will have stopped caring, and that will shut more wallets than any number of grindaversary and rep buff/nerfs.
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I must have missed the above line when I quoted you earlier.
I'm afraid you have mischaracterised what I'm suggesting.
I'm not arguing that only my opinion should matter, I'm arguing that all the opinions should matter.
That only by honoring each one as an individual opinion can one truly grasp the aggregrate.
My character Tsin'xing
That may or may not mean listening to opinions of players who post. Just because something is posted doesn't make it a good idea for the game. Doesn't matter how may people you get to post in support of it.
No I and some others just WOULD like to have the 359 ships in it. But I did not start this thread and I will neeeever say something again.
There are people who hate STO, and have admitted to hating STO, but still post because their fun comes from being a spoiler to others who like the game. There are people ticked off about one thing who take it out on everything else in the game.
If every person on the forum were rational the idea of a warning signal might mean something, but everyone poster is not rational and everyone has their own personal agenda - they want what they want.
But even then, a small group of vocal people not liking something does not mean there is an actual problem. Sometimes what could be perceived as a warning signal is just someone crying wolf and others jumping on the bandwagon. Other times it is just the way the system needs to work even if it makes no sense to someone.
The Devs cannot act on everyone's pet peeve. They have X amount of man-hours available to them. The fact that there is a 20 page thread about skants does not mean the Devs should drop everything they are doing and get skants into the game. Likewise, the fact that some people want the Freedom Class in the game does not mean Geko should drop everything he is working on to get a Freedom out the door.
I just wish Geko would, or at least recognize the desire fore them if he doesn't already.
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your assuming that almost everyone posting on the forums hates sto and wants to see it burn.. your mistaking that for people who are sick of watching one of the biggest ip's on the planet not get the attention it deserves.. further more.. in terms of games, this game is lackluster.. sure, it looks pretty, but honestly, this is the first time ive ever felt like im running in circles in a game.. lol..
getting beyond that.. while I have no love for a large portion of the dev team, I do not think them completely inept in being able to determine what is good useable ideas and comments, and being able to tell when someone is jaded..
further more, we are talking about ships.. were not trying to say how they should be built, or that they should be the bees knees and break the game (like the scimitar). we are simply voicing that we would like to see these canon "STAR TREK SHIPS" in this "STAR TREK GAME" expecially since given what was already seen on screen.. all of these ships would still be well within their refit and service age for the timeline in the game..
cosmic, you keep telling everyone your not trying to tell anyone what is good or isn't good, or what they should think is good or isn't good.. you keep saying that your just trying to be a voice of reason.. we get it.. you don't like the ships.. move on.. it makes no sense for you to keep telling people they are wrong.
I have seen a ton of great ideas floating around in this thread, making compromise with the lord overseers (gecko) thinks is good trek and bad trek.. people saying, build new 2409 designs that can work with them.. its not hurting anyone to have a canon design mixed in with a newer 2409 design.
again, this is a star trek game, is it not.. were those not ships seen in star trek. would you not sumise that since every other trekkie approved game has had them added at one point or another, (ie, bridge commander, and other modable games) that it would make sense to add them, cause the metrics from those games show they were worth developing..
sometimes it amazes me how you truly do not understand the star trek world (as a fan).. those ships, might have only had 30 seconds of "screen" time.. but.. that's more than any cryptic design.. further more.. it is implied that fleets of those vessels were built.. they were not the only ones.. they mention the classes left and right on the show.
books have been written around these ships.. online trek roleplayers consistently use these ships. some of them have been used in almost everygame made (weather they were later addons, patches, or what not).
there are not just one, but several websites dedicated to these ships, and what they are, could be, and what not.. people have spent hours on ex astris, or other sites talking about these ships.. there is even an interview I watched a while back where they were talking to the people who were in charge of making best of both worlds.. they said they were not ready for the amount of feedback and interest they got in the ships.. they said they figured no one would have cared, as they were just wrecks.. but that people were asking for studio pics and what the ships sizes, and armaments, and crew compliment were...
like you love to say in this thread.. just because a few people like or dislike something, doesn't mean they are or are not viable.. these ships most certainly are viable.. any trek fan knows that..
as far as your complaint about people yelling canon.. that's because this game is based off of a show. a show where we saw these things.. and this is a game that supposably wants to keep canon intact (im laughing as I write this lol).. but it is important to have a healthy mix of canon and non canon..
you wouldn't make a my little pony game with jet fighters instead of ponies.. lol..
trying to say that star trek fans shouldn't want their favorite star trek ships in game is kinda f'd up..
as far as you saying people are jaded on these forums.. its not because people hate star trek.. its because people like gecko drive the star trek fans crazy with some of the bs they have done in this game.. and some of the statements they make..
From a business standpoint it is better for Cryptic to make ships usable by 3 Factions then to create ships for individual Factions - especially when those ships are extremely obscure - where a large percentage of the buyers have know idea if the ship is canon or not.
You error in the belief that the majority of people playing STO are avid Trekkers. They are not. Most of the people playing STO have a casual understanding of Trek and could not tell you what a Freedom Class ship is or where it was from if you offered them a million dollars for the correct answer.
Cryptic cannot put all of its resources into making obscure things that only benefit a fraction of a fraction of the fan-base, whether it is canon or not. Doing that in any business is a sure way to destruction. When we are talking about something like the Freedom Class we are talking the obscure of the obscure canon.
The fact that something is canon does not mean it will sell well enough to justify the hundreds of man-hours that went into making it - and that is time lost that could have been spent making something that would have sold better even if it was not canon.
But that is not our fan concern, isn't it? Cryptic chose to make a game called Star Trek Online. Then they decided to use an TRIBBLE-backwards one-way of a business model. That's their fault, not ours. And a lot of fans who pla this game because it is "Star Trek Online" ask for stuff that is, well, "Star Trek". If Cryptic cannot provide basic assets like things we saw in the show, in a matter that is at least halfway consistent with established lore, the enterprise "Star Trek Online" is a failure. And only because they choose a "what will people pay money for next?" approach doesn't mean that the fans will or should stop asking for content that is meaningful to the IP.
The hate on STO you mentioned - what I wrote above is exactly what my "beef" with this game is. In reflection of the IP almost any single choice Cryptic made in it's development is in my opinion wrong because it goes against basic things established by the shows - this starts with the very basic inventory/character build system and only in it's very end reaches things like "story", "content" and "ships". In fact I personally would say that if any trace of Star Trek would be removed from the game it would be a "better" game. It would feel better and not so cringeworthy almost all the time because there is so many "minor" and "major" stuff that just itches in the back of my head. I wouldn't play the game if that were to happen, because the basic, generic gameplay wouldn't be enough to hold me, though. Quite ironic, isn't it - I am still here and play for some inexplicably reason. I would love STO because it had so much potential. So much wasted potential. But I see ways to redeem quite a few "mistakes" and I as well as others will continue to make suggestions and ask questions about that, I think.
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Doesn't matter.
Cryptic keep making up random stuff anyway; putting in the kitbashes means they can continue to make random stuff, and put in canon ships that fans of the obscure happy. The original ships would only represent one variant of each type after all; Cryptic are free to make better looking alternate costumes for them.
Agreed, the Oslo is a poor poor alternative, this game needs more canon ships! (and less damn dinosaurs!)
Seriously, some of the kitbashes are fine but others should be buried and forgotten as ever having existed.
No arguments there (I'm looking at you DS9), but there's nothing particularly wrong with the Wolf 359 ones.
The New Orleans is a perfectly good and reasonably conventional, ship.
The Freedom represents a known design lineage of single nacelle ships (and I'm not even counting the Kelvin, though I suppose I should).
The Challenger is let down only by the submarine conning tower it has for an upper nacelle pylon (seriously, just google images of the 'Hayden class' for an idea of how good a ship of that configuration could look; it's fan made of course, but it proves the point nicely).
And the Niagara... well, OK the Niagara is an odd duck I'll admit; but it's amazing how much better she looks if you just swap out the pylons for a back swept design that sits further up the hull (and she looks fantastic from the front even unmodified IMO).
It's people asking for the Yeager that baffle me; but to each their own I guess.
I can half see your point.. but.. this game is about star trek.. not about anything else.. cryptic has lost a good portion of the "trekkies" because they didn't pay more attention to being canon, and trying to make a good "trek" game. I am apart of several star trek fan clubs and online forums and what not.. a majority of the trekkies on these sites have given up on sto, cause it just got silly, wasn't paying attention to canon, and didn't address the trekkies needs and wants.. instead, they alienated most of the star trek fans, and started getting silly, which attracted more non trek fans.. my friends list has hundreds of people on it who were die hard trekkies, that have not logge din in 2-3 years..
and no one knows how well these ships will do.. they might be obscure by trek standards, but a freedom would probably do well with the non trek fans alike.. no one knows.. with your logic, I can say that any cryptic design is a waste of time, its obscure, and they shouldn't waste their time on something that isn't a sure thing..
and no, I did not error in the belief that most people playing sto are avid trekkers, I know they are not.. as I know most star trek fans were smarter than me and jumped ship.. my best friend whom I miss in this game is one such trekker, and he comes over and checks it out on my comp everyonce in a while, sees the stupid stuff they are doing (like the risa corvette, or when you warp into sol system there is usually more scimitars, galors, bug ships, jemhadar dreads, and other alien ships there than actual federation ships) and says hes glad hes not back..
im simply saying, that a portion of the remaining trek fans would want to see it, and I bet a large portion of the non trek player base would be interested in some of these ships.. like I said, if these ships are too obscure for development time, then so arnt cryptic designs.. at least the obscure ships have a current fallowing.
and again, this is a star trek game, these are star trek ships we are talking about.. its not like were asking for an f22 to be added to the game as a fighter..
dude, wrong.. these kit bashes in question are not full kitbashes.. not like some of the stuff already in game..
the niagra only has the engines and star drive section of another existing ship. everything else is custom made..
the challenger only has the engines and the saucer of an existing ship, everything else is custom built for it..
the only one that is arguably a full on kit bash is the freedom.
the springfield class is a pretty far cry from a kit bash..
the new Orleans is a kit bash, but there was a lot of changes made to the existing galaxy model pieces that it gives it an entirely different look.
and as far as them not being meaningfull to the ip, like I said, do some internet searches, they were meaningfull to star trek fans, they were put in almost every other star trek game, if not by the company, than by fans who took the time to make them.. there is endless debates about these ships and what their functions are on the internet.. and there are interviews where they talk about how the creators of them were not ready for the amount of interest they drew..
not to mention, these ships shown at wolf 359 were mass produced, its not like all of them were prototypes lol.. these ships made up the backbone of the fleet in tng.
and no. most cryptic designs look more akin to anime, or other sci fi genres than they do trek.. believe me, there is one or two good 2409 ships, but for the most part, they tried to make them look tooo fancy. they tried to incorporate other designs from other shows into them.. I see bits of Andromeda in some designs. I see bits of stargate, and battlestar galactica. very little trek.. aside from blue engines with red buzzard collectors, and a deflector dish..
There is a reason why the KDF have gotten very few C-Store items. It has nothing to do with canon and everything to do with the belief that enough people will not buy the items to justify the time and cost in making them as frequently.
The more I read your posts the more I see someone who is just completely burned out on STO. You tried to play through the frustration and it only made you angry, and now you cannot shake the anger. This game is never going to be what YOU want it to be. It is never going to be what I want it to be - and we both, probably, want different things. You either need to accept that or it is going to swallow your sanity.
Take the advice of all the Trek fans you have stated have left and go yourself. Take a long break and clear away all that anger. Then come back and just realize that STO is just a Trek-based game offering a few hours of fun rather then the most important thing in anyone's life.
The only one that I think would be worth time is the New Orleans. The rest...yeah not so much. But again, this is my opinion and I think that Cryptics done better than most of the kitbashes, even the 359 ones. Yes some of their designs are odd (looking at you Imperial) but the rest look better than most of the kitbashes used through TNG and DS9.
They are still kitbashes. And yes, I know what these ones look like. Most Cryptic designs look better and fit Star Trek better than the ones listed here (examples of ones I think are better are the New Orleans and the Cheyenne that is already in game). The rest are either TRIBBLE or just old models the studio had lying around. Don't even get me started on the DS9 ones...
oh believe me I do take breaks.. I take 1-3 months here and there im actually in my 2cnd month back from a break. lol.. and I would quit if this wasn't the only thing trek..
however, what your trying to tell me right now, is that you believe only a certain number of star trek fans would like these ships.. that there is no way any of these would garner any interest from the non trek fans playing the game? cause that's what it sounds like..
let me tell you something.. this game is so starved for content (and I now believe they do this on purpose) that everyone just jumps up and buys everything weather they want it or not.. cause its something new.. the literally could release a mr. hanky the xmas poo ship with boff stations and everyone would go nuts for it..
also, you believe that these ships would take tons of time and money to make.. that is not so.. the return these ships would give them, while maybe not on a scimitar scale, would get them a profit.. again, my buddy is a 3d content designer.. he said it would only take a few days to make models of each ship, and if they stay away from the hunger of putting power creap consoles in them, it would only take a mear day to have them ready for release. he makes character models that have to have full movement at all joints and what not, and it takes him less than a week.
further more, I believe that some of these skins already exist.. when stahl put the niagra and the new Orleans in the engineering reports, I would assume that the ship designers went ahead and mocked them up. the ship designers themselves have even said that canon designs are easy, and take very little time to mock up. so half the work is done.. (yes I know stahl isn't in control anymore, im just saying I bet at least the niagra and the new Orleans are fleshed out and more than half way towards being useable.).
just throw hard points on them, and a boff layout, and their stats, and boom.. your making it sound like it takes months of every hand on deck to make a ship.. when it doesn't..
and no one is saying that all of these ships need to come out tomorrow all together.. it would be nice to see all of them come out over say a year or so.. space them out..
and no offense cosmic, but if you think im jaded, I am. but the impression I get of you (and a few of the others) is that you know everything. you constantly condescend people for having an opinion, and constantly sit on your high horses waving the your wrong stick at everyone. I too used to have thousands of posts, I used to talk to some of you when we were in beta, or shortly after. ive even gone head to head with stahl and other devs (weather arguing or joking with them). I took a break the first time they decided to reset the server lol.. but since then I did realize a lot of my posts were more out of anger than anything, so I read almost everything, I only choose to post in what matters to me..
this matters to me.. I havnt gotten a whole lot out of this game that I have wanted.. and the few things (like the nebula) that they did put in, well the messed them up.. lol.. since stahl announced that the niagra was indeed on the drawing board, I was tickled pink.. love that ship. and I have been waiting since then.. to no avail.. once again, the game lets me down, in favor of ships like the risan corvette, (that no one uses) or hirogen ships.. (you know cause Starfleet always puts enemy ships in service lol).
and I know from the several dozen threads on this topic, that these ships do indeed have enough support to make the juice worth the squeeze.. Christ, its had enough press here on the forums that gecko and others are being asked about them on podcast interviews..
you cant tell me its about money, cause its not. they determined once already that these ships were viable enough to put some of them on the drawing board.. and lets look at it this way, well go 50/50.. meaning if we meet in the middle of our argument, 50 % of the player base will like them, and 50% wont..