I find it disturbing that the issues some of us are having with the new faces are seemling just being swept under the rug.
They seem to be looking at ways to expand the body options without altering existing bodies, but not a single word on even looking into doing the same for faces...
Senator...I have responded directly to your post already. The differences you've shown are so minor most people can't detect them.
As I said before, I understand you are intimately familiar with the appearance of your toon, but hell, that degree of difference and more happens to real people's faces on a regular basis. Weight change, age, general mood, illness, even not enough sleep. If that degree of difference truly made your character "completely ruined" and unrecognizable, humans (in rl) would constantly be asking everyone around them "who are you?"
Your examples in this case and the frequency feel *greatly* exaggerated. If you're trolling, fine you got me. If not, whether you believe it or not, we're trying to make the game better for you and other players.
Now, *hopefully* when you see the new sliders you'll agree things are better overall. We added quite a few, including a brow furrow, lip corner, and cheekbone. So maybe you'll even be able to squeeze that last little bit of difference out and have it exactly the same as it was before...but the real hope is you and everyone else like the new options so much you'll want to check it out and make adjustments to your favorite toons.
Senator...I have responded directly to your post already. The differences you've shown are so minor most people can't detect them.
Even me, that I am freek with type of stuff can live with the real minnor changes that S9 bring. I can bearly notice them.
If the devs are going to make the effort to balance new stuff with our current characters, I belive we (the players) can also make the effort of tolarate really small changes like the S9 ones.
Senator...I have responded directly to your post already. The differences you've shown are so minor most people can't detect them.
As I said before, I understand you are intimately familiar with the appearance of your toon, but hell, that degree of difference and more happens to real people's faces on a regular basis. Weight change, age, general mood, illness, even not enough sleep. If that degree of difference truly made your character "completely ruined" and unrecognizable, humans (in rl) would constantly be asking everyone around them "who are you?"
Your examples in this case and the frequency feel *greatly* exaggerated. If you're trolling, fine you got me. If not, whether you believe it or not, we're trying to make the game better for you and other players.
Now, *hopefully* when you see the new sliders you'll agree things are better overall. We added quite a few, including a brow furrow, lip corner, and cheekbone. So maybe you'll even be able to squeeze that last little bit of difference out and have it exactly the same as it was before...but the real hope is you and everyone else like the new options so much you'll want to check it out and make adjustments to your favorite toons.
Honestly, from where I stand I don't understand how people cannot see the difference.
To me the differences are blatantly obvious, and not just on my own toons.
Foreheads in particular are the most noticable and are considerably larger and cannot be scaled down to the way they were, which makes certain hairstyles just look... odd, on a non-ridged species.
I simply do not understand why the existing faces/heads could not have been grandfathered into an "old" head type, since as part of this update you obviously have the means to create new face types.
And that would certainly put the matter to rest and satisfy all the players.
Honestly, from where I stand I don't understand how people cannot see the difference.
To me the differences are blatantly obvious, and not just on my own toons.
Foreheads in particular are the most noticable and are considerably larger and cannot be scaled down to the way they were, which makes certain hairstyles just look... odd, on a non-ridged species.
I simply do not understand why the existing faces/heads could not have been grandfathered into an "old" head type, since as part of this update you obviously have the means to create new face types.
And that would certainly put the matter to rest and satisfy all the players.
I do not see the differences you suggest. Does that make me blind? No. Does it make me less detail-oriented? Possibly. But in all of your images, showing before- and after, the differences (if any) are so minor, that it's quite honestly, not even noticeable. It is quite possible, that it is YOU who is far too detail-oriented, that even the slightest, minuscule change, looks "horribly disfigured" in your eyes.
I can survive with having to make certain changes (if necessary), if it also means being able to adjust my characters, to look more unique compared to everyone else. To me, the old head styles, regardless of how much I changed slider values, they all looked the same. The new head styles however, have FINALLY granted me a proper unique look, and changes I make to it's appearance, are actually a lot more noticeable to me.
Neither you, nor I, speak for the entire community. Hell, this entire forum, doesn't even represent the entire community. So all I could add, is that it is you, personally, who find the changes "horrendous" and/or "completely runied". But it's quite likely, that a larger part of the community (myself included), do not share your opinion. Which is fine, since we're all entitled to our own opinions.
Which would you prefer?
- The old system, which was far too limited, but allowed you to "keep your pre-S9 appearance"
- The new system, which allows far more flexibility and options, with additional sliders, for even MORE flexibility
I'd personally take having to change my costume options to "fix" my appearance, over being as limited as we were pre-S9.
Senator...I have responded directly to your post already. The differences you've shown are so minor most people can't detect them.
As I said before, I understand you are intimately familiar with the appearance of your toon, but hell, that degree of difference and more happens to real people's faces on a regular basis. Weight change, age, general mood, illness, even not enough sleep. If that degree of difference truly made your character "completely ruined" and unrecognizable, humans (in rl) would constantly be asking everyone around them "who are you?"
Your examples in this case and the frequency feel *greatly* exaggerated. If you're trolling, fine you got me. If not, whether you believe it or not, we're trying to make the game better for you and other players.
Now, *hopefully* when you see the new sliders you'll agree things are better overall. We added quite a few, including a brow furrow, lip corner, and cheekbone. So maybe you'll even be able to squeeze that last little bit of difference out and have it exactly the same as it was before...but the real hope is you and everyone else like the new options so much you'll want to check it out and make adjustments to your favorite toons.
Real life is a myth and Humans went extinct millions of years ago. Silly dev.
Ooh cheekbone and lip corner sliders. Does that mean we will be able to make it so our characters are smiling or frowning? That would be cool.
If the devs are going to make the effort to balance new stuff with our current characters, I belive we (the players) can also make the effort of tolarate really small changes like the S9 ones.
Agreed, I'll take some short term pain for some long term gain.
Especially if it gets me those full body textures for Trill spots eh crypticjoejing :P
Now, *hopefully* when you see the new sliders you'll agree things are better overall. We added quite a few, including a brow furrow, lip corner, and cheekbone.
Now that gets my attention, lip corner sounds interesting....
I simply do not understand why the existing faces/heads could not have been grandfathered into an "old" head type, since as part of this update you obviously have the means to create new face types.
And that would certainly put the matter to rest and satisfy all the players.
I've also responded to this recurring question as well, but totally understandable if it was missed in the many threads and comments. Here it is again:
As a general comment about proposals requesting that we save everything in a state as it is and give an option to update, and/or duplicating the features so you have a choice, etc...also, not as easy as you'd think (if you thought it'd be easy), and probably a helluva lot harder than you're thinking (if you thought it'd be hard). There are so many interconnected systems that are absolutely dependent on each other. On an extreme end, imagine suddenly your characters don't get new animations because you're on an old setup? Maybe not the biggest deal, but also increasing the hard drive space and download time on updates for all the character art? And really, would it be just doubling? Say we duplicate stuff now. Then a year from now we make new revisions and additions. Duplicate again?, so those people that are cemented into their characters at that point don't throw a fit? The amount of testing compatibility increases exponentially, and if we just "allow" people to play with potentially broken stuff, (regardless of how you feel the state of polish the game is in currently - good or bad), we don't actually want to increase the chances of more broken things in the game.
We will strive to strike a balance between improving and expanding the game and reworking beloved foundations, but duplicating everything and just throwing more options at the players isn't the way.
As to why we might be able to do it in one instance and not in another - completely different systems and assets between complexions, base head shapes, and bone sliders, each with their own capabilities and limitations. We tried very hard to retain existing appearances so as not to alienate you and others understandably attached to their toons. However, the degree you're demanding is arguably too restrictive to successfully expand and improve the options.
Besides, as many others have commented the differences are arguably negligible and we feel the improved organization and increased options significantly outweigh the benefits of keeping the old way exactly as it was (and we're pretty sure most players will feel the same ).
Your right, Many do feel the differences are negligible, but to be fair many also feel the complete opposite, and have voiced those concerns in this and other threads.
There are even people who were still unhappy that the head changes already introduced with Season 8 were never entirely reverted.
And to be perfectly honest, while more options are great and all, I don't feel particularly motivated or comfortable anymore to really make full use of the character editor and all its options as I once did, because what assurances do I have there won't be changes made again a year from now, putting us back right back where we are now?
And I for one am not interested in spending my time fine-tuning and re-tweaking my characters and bridge officers to my satisfaction over and over again.
...as many others have commented the differences are arguably negligible and we feel the improved organization and increased options significantly outweigh the benefits of keeping the old way exactly as it was...
CrypticJoeJing,
Let me start by saying I'm a fan of the upcoming changes and think you and your team have done the most possible to make the two ends (CHANGE vs. OLDSCHOOL) meet as close as they possibly could.
And with all due respect to SenatorVreenak, I personally don't feel the difference in his character cause it to be "ruined", though I do appreciate that there are some objective changes. I feel for him, and if you'll pardon my being maudlin a moment, it is his suffering (and those like him) by which we pay the Price of Progress!
>insert moment of dramatic silence<
That being said, I do have a question about his before/after picture. While most of the newer version looks great/better to me, something does stick out to me as ... a step backwards. And that's the hairline.
I've reposted a cropped version of the picture here, (left side is new, right side is original). And one can clearly see the old version looks smoother, perhaps "blurrier", but it makes for a more natural appearance, whereas the new version looks quite pixelated, which to me is bad (not "ruined" or even unacceptable, but worse than the original). Is this intentional? Can anything be done about that?
(P.S. The light mocking above was only meant to bring levity, no offense was intended. )
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
The hairline does stick out like a sore thumb for me as well, but for a different reason.
Its too high up now and the forehead is just too large for my taste, and no matter how I pull and adjust the sliders, I cannot lower it and make it look/feel like before.
The Irony is that it looks just fine on my Romulan with a brow ridge. :P
I've also responded to this recurring question as well, but totally understandable if it was missed in the many threads and comments. Here it is again:
As to why we might be able to do it in one instance and not in another - completely different systems and assets between complexions, base head shapes, and bone sliders, each with their own capabilities and limitations. We tried very hard to retain existing appearances so as not to alienate you and others understandably attached to their toons. However, the degree you're demanding is arguably too restrictive to successfully expand and improve the options.
Besides, as many others have commented the differences are arguably negligible and we feel the improved organization and increased options significantly outweigh the benefits of keeping the old way exactly as it was (and we're pretty sure most players will feel the same ).
I'm happy with the updated characters, too. Just throwing that out there. I did notice some minor changes, but IMO they were for the better, and my BOFFs look a lot less like clones now that I have some new options to use.
And with all due respect to SenatorVreenak, I personally don't feel the difference in his character cause it to be "ruined", though I do appreciate that there are some objective changes. I feel for him, and if you'll pardon my being maudlin a moment, it is his suffering (and those like him) by which we pay the Price of Progress!
While I agree that senatorvreenak's claim that his character is ruined is exaggerated, some characters do exhibit verifiable changes. Some people will notice the differences right away; others may not notice at all. I don't think senatorvreenak's screenshots illustrate the differences very well. Here is a better example.
That being said, I do have a question about his before/after picture. While most of the newer version looks great/better to me, something does stick out to me as ... a step backwards. And that's the hairline.
I've reposted a cropped version of the picture here, (left side is new, right side is original). And one can clearly see the old version looks smoother, perhaps "blurrier", but it makes for a more natural appearance, whereas the new version looks quite pixelated, which to me is bad (not "ruined" or even unacceptable, but worse than the original). Is this intentional? Can anything be done about that?
The hairline does stick out like a sore thumb for me as well, but for a different reason.
Its too high up now and the forehead is just too large for my taste, and no matter how I pull and adjust the sliders, I cannot lower it and make it look/feel like before.
The Irony is that it looks just fine on my Romulan with a brow ridge. :P
I've mentioned the hairline changes before. The thread didn't get very many responses.
I've also responded to this recurring question as well, but totally understandable if it was missed in the many threads and comments. Here it is again:
Hairlines really need to be fixed.
As mentioned foreheads at least on my female characters, just look awful without ridges to cover it up.
And its "impossible" to correct it with the current slider options in S9.
Comments
Senator...I have responded directly to your post already. The differences you've shown are so minor most people can't detect them.
As I said before, I understand you are intimately familiar with the appearance of your toon, but hell, that degree of difference and more happens to real people's faces on a regular basis. Weight change, age, general mood, illness, even not enough sleep. If that degree of difference truly made your character "completely ruined" and unrecognizable, humans (in rl) would constantly be asking everyone around them "who are you?"
Your examples in this case and the frequency feel *greatly* exaggerated. If you're trolling, fine you got me. If not, whether you believe it or not, we're trying to make the game better for you and other players.
Now, *hopefully* when you see the new sliders you'll agree things are better overall. We added quite a few, including a brow furrow, lip corner, and cheekbone. So maybe you'll even be able to squeeze that last little bit of difference out and have it exactly the same as it was before...but the real hope is you and everyone else like the new options so much you'll want to check it out and make adjustments to your favorite toons.
Even me, that I am freek with type of stuff can live with the real minnor changes that S9 bring. I can bearly notice them.
If the devs are going to make the effort to balance new stuff with our current characters, I belive we (the players) can also make the effort of tolarate really small changes like the S9 ones.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Honestly, from where I stand I don't understand how people cannot see the difference.
To me the differences are blatantly obvious, and not just on my own toons.
Foreheads in particular are the most noticable and are considerably larger and cannot be scaled down to the way they were, which makes certain hairstyles just look... odd, on a non-ridged species.
I simply do not understand why the existing faces/heads could not have been grandfathered into an "old" head type, since as part of this update you obviously have the means to create new face types.
And that would certainly put the matter to rest and satisfy all the players.
I do not see the differences you suggest. Does that make me blind? No. Does it make me less detail-oriented? Possibly. But in all of your images, showing before- and after, the differences (if any) are so minor, that it's quite honestly, not even noticeable. It is quite possible, that it is YOU who is far too detail-oriented, that even the slightest, minuscule change, looks "horribly disfigured" in your eyes.
I can survive with having to make certain changes (if necessary), if it also means being able to adjust my characters, to look more unique compared to everyone else. To me, the old head styles, regardless of how much I changed slider values, they all looked the same. The new head styles however, have FINALLY granted me a proper unique look, and changes I make to it's appearance, are actually a lot more noticeable to me.
Neither you, nor I, speak for the entire community. Hell, this entire forum, doesn't even represent the entire community. So all I could add, is that it is you, personally, who find the changes "horrendous" and/or "completely runied". But it's quite likely, that a larger part of the community (myself included), do not share your opinion. Which is fine, since we're all entitled to our own opinions.
Which would you prefer?
- The old system, which was far too limited, but allowed you to "keep your pre-S9 appearance"
- The new system, which allows far more flexibility and options, with additional sliders, for even MORE flexibility
I'd personally take having to change my costume options to "fix" my appearance, over being as limited as we were pre-S9.
Well, in there I desagree, but we already had that discuccion.
I said again, the changes of S9 are so small that are not important, at least to me, and I am a very detail-oriented person with my characters.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Real life is a myth and Humans went extinct millions of years ago. Silly dev.
Ooh cheekbone and lip corner sliders. Does that mean we will be able to make it so our characters are smiling or frowning? That would be cool.
Agreed, I'll take some short term pain for some long term gain.
Especially if it gets me those full body textures for Trill spots eh crypticjoejing
Now that gets my attention, lip corner sounds interesting....
I've also responded to this recurring question as well, but totally understandable if it was missed in the many threads and comments. Here it is again:
As to why we might be able to do it in one instance and not in another - completely different systems and assets between complexions, base head shapes, and bone sliders, each with their own capabilities and limitations. We tried very hard to retain existing appearances so as not to alienate you and others understandably attached to their toons. However, the degree you're demanding is arguably too restrictive to successfully expand and improve the options.
Besides, as many others have commented the differences are arguably negligible and we feel the improved organization and increased options significantly outweigh the benefits of keeping the old way exactly as it was (and we're pretty sure most players will feel the same
There are even people who were still unhappy that the head changes already introduced with Season 8 were never entirely reverted.
And to be perfectly honest, while more options are great and all, I don't feel particularly motivated or comfortable anymore to really make full use of the character editor and all its options as I once did, because what assurances do I have there won't be changes made again a year from now, putting us back right back where we are now?
And I for one am not interested in spending my time fine-tuning and re-tweaking my characters and bridge officers to my satisfaction over and over again.
Let me start by saying I'm a fan of the upcoming changes and think you and your team have done the most possible to make the two ends (CHANGE vs. OLDSCHOOL) meet as close as they possibly could.
And with all due respect to SenatorVreenak, I personally don't feel the difference in his character cause it to be "ruined", though I do appreciate that there are some objective changes. I feel for him, and if you'll pardon my being maudlin a moment, it is his suffering (and those like him) by which we pay the Price of Progress!
>insert moment of dramatic silence<
That being said, I do have a question about his before/after picture. While most of the newer version looks great/better to me, something does stick out to me as ... a step backwards. And that's the hairline.
I've reposted a cropped version of the picture here, (left side is new, right side is original). And one can clearly see the old version looks smoother, perhaps "blurrier", but it makes for a more natural appearance, whereas the new version looks quite pixelated, which to me is bad (not "ruined" or even unacceptable, but worse than the original). Is this intentional? Can anything be done about that?
(P.S. The light mocking above was only meant to bring levity, no offense was intended.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Its too high up now and the forehead is just too large for my taste, and no matter how I pull and adjust the sliders, I cannot lower it and make it look/feel like before.
The Irony is that it looks just fine on my Romulan with a brow ridge. :P
I'm happy with the improvements. But some people just don't like change http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHpdgHTINik
While I agree that senatorvreenak's claim that his character is ruined is exaggerated, some characters do exhibit verifiable changes. Some people will notice the differences right away; others may not notice at all. I don't think senatorvreenak's screenshots illustrate the differences very well. Here is a better example.
Before, After
You can see differences in the width of the mouth and cheeks.
I've mentioned the hairline changes before. The thread didn't get very many responses.
Hey, tacofangs has just the thread for you: Recidivist Topics
Ask him to add your reply to the thread. It will be handy.
Dont know how someone did the Joker from Batman but i see him sometimes in Game.
Or how i can make a Alien that looks like Herman Munster
Subscribed For: 4 years 5 months 20 days at 26.10.2014
He really needs to update that more often. :P
As mentioned foreheads at least on my female characters, just look awful without ridges to cover it up.
And its "impossible" to correct it with the current slider options in S9.