Well yes it is one option. The real question would be how tiered would they have to make the ques in order for it to work. I am not shooting it down because yes it could work perhaps if was done right. They would have to decide how much rep would push you into which level... and there would be issues of numbers of players. The system would work great I am sure on a saturday afternoon. How would it work at 3AM on a Tuesday though ? Still yes it is one possible solution... short term at least. I am not sure they could continue that forever. If we get to say 7 or 8 reps a year from now would it still work ? When would we hit a point where the last tier of difficulty was not enough. Thanks for thinking about the problem though. It is the problem the Devs have described and why they have decided to do something about the creep.
Well, in that case, maybe they should sit on it for a while longer and think some more rather doing this. I just think its a bit extreme when there could be many other options available.
Anyway, So, we have conduits elite and normal right? How about, we have instead of elite and normals, we have conduit t0, conduit tier 1, conduit t2, conduit t3, conduit t4, and conduit t5.
You cant play conduit t1 to t5 until you have completed the previous tiers.
Example, I got a new toon just hit lvl 50. I want to play conduit. I can only join the conduit tier 0 group as i am not tier 1. But once i hit tier 1, i can then play conduit t1, and so forth and so forth. I think this could work. As compared to what they are doing now by nerfing reps, i think this will be a bad mistake. But, have been known to be wrong
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
I think is starting to think about the issue the devs are facing though and how to fix it in a way he would be happy with. So hey if they are still reading after this many pages perhaps they will pick up on something useful. lol
We can only hope....i like my reps lol
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Well, in that case, maybe they should sit on it for a while longer and think some more rather doing this. I just think its a bit extreme when there could be many other options available.
Anyway, So, we have conduits elite and normal right? How about, we have instead of elite and normals, we have conduit t0, conduit tier 1, conduit t2, conduit t3, conduit t4, and conduit t5.
You cant play conduit t1 to t5 until you have completed the previous tiers.
Example, I got a new toon just hit lvl 50. I want to play conduit. I can only join the conduit tier 0 group as i am not tier 1. But once i hit tier 1, i can then play conduit t1, and so forth and so forth. I think this could work. As compared to what they are doing now by nerfing reps, i think this will be a bad mistake. But, have been known to be wrong
I think it comes down to population. Honestly its why I believe your idea wouldn't work, at least not in that way. Perhaps some form of smart system that would average out the players in the que and put them in a proper tier. So that people would just que for a PvE... at that point they could remove the Normal and E modes... just have one que per mission... then it would just take the 5 players with the closest level to one another and average that out... auto selecting a tier. Yes I could see that work.
To be honest though I still think there current choice is better. As it solves the real issue of future power creep... as I believe Cryptic is going to continue giving us a new rep every 3-6 months.
At least we have talked about one more viable option... and to be honest I could see your idea working with the new trait system as well... Traits are not the only source of Creep... perhaps they could also tally a "gear" score for every player and use that to determine a team "gear" score in which to balance the level of difficulty.
Your idea might have merit in solving some other issues they are no doubt thinking about. They could take that system a step further then gear score even... and keep track of how well people do in PvE missions... and score people behind the scenes. They could use that data to balance teams out as best as possible with what is in the que and then balancing the mission based on the average score of the players on the team. (consequently this is system we have been asking them to implement in the PvP ques for awhile now)...
This is now a system I could see working for BOTH PvP and PvE... which makes me very happy because the tech is more likely to be pursued as a PvE solution.
This has nothing to do with PvP. It has everything to do with keeping the expected performance of players within targeted bounds, and keeping those targets reasonable for the difference between a max-geared/specced player and a min-geared/specced player.
PvP is very good at highlighting corner cases of systems where things work poorly. Almost universally, those cases are actually really bad PvE design too. In a game where the PvP and PvE rules are the same, if you see something really frustrating in PvP, it probably shouldn't be that way in PvE either. That doesn't mean we wouldn't change it if PvP weren't in the game - it just means it would be harder to find or identify the offending systems imbalance.
A question first:
Not sure I am reading this correctly, but does this mean that you were not able to see that there was a power creep issue by players doing PVE, and STFs? The issue was not clear till it was seen in PVP?
My thoughts:
Personally, I am not sure how this will play out. I am interested in trying it on Tribble this Thursday, or Friday. I can see how it will help to balance the PVP and PVE aspect of the game as far as passive abilities go.
However, this will only block one side of the power creep issue, right?
The reason I ask is because ship builds, and skill tree have more to do with how much DPS you can put out, than your passives. (I am not saying they don't help). I only asked because I have a character that I can keep up with almost any high DPS Scimitar in STFs, and PVE with mine. However, I don't have any rep systems to T5 yet. I only have a few Tiers in Omega, and Dyson, and did nothing to Romulan, or Nukara at all.
My Scimitar is close to what they can do. I can actually match them if I were to move some skill points around in my skill tree to add to my DPS, or buy fleet gear, or MK XII purple weapons at least. This is without me having access to the passives they are getting from their rep systems.
Are there other plans to change other systems in the game to help give a more equal feel?
I am not trying to bash this idea. I do see that there is something that needs to be done, because as we keep getting rep systems with every new season, and getting 2 new space, and ground passives, we will eventually be able to one shot the cubes like they do us.
I was just curious since it has been mentioned that it is to make things more equal between new level 50, and vet. level 50s.
Thanks,
Tim.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
Well, in that case, maybe they should sit on it for a while longer and think some more rather doing this. I just think its a bit extreme when there could be many other options available.
Anyway, So, we have conduits elite and normal right? How about, we have instead of elite and normals, we have conduit t0, conduit tier 1, conduit t2, conduit t3, conduit t4, and conduit t5.
You cant play conduit t1 to t5 until you have completed the previous tiers.
Example, I got a new toon just hit lvl 50. I want to play conduit. I can only join the conduit tier 0 group as i am not tier 1. But once i hit tier 1, i can then play conduit t1, and so forth and so forth. I think this could work. As compared to what they are doing now by nerfing reps, i think this will be a bad mistake. But, have been known to be wrong
The better idea would be when new content comes out you can not expect to do it with a brand new toon. If it's end game it's going to take you time and effort to progress into it. No other mmo has it's end game missions and content come out and have people expect to be able to beat them that just hit lvl 50.
The problem is the reps themselves. Reps should be something that helps a player into progression. This is the purpose they serve in every single other mmo. They do not provide a bonus that stays with you forever. They are there to help with progression, give cool vanity rewards, and neat titles.
In Star Trek Online they are a source of player power progression because they are the end game. You do the content to progress the rep to be able to do....what? This game needs a end game.
Almost all mmos have a rep system and grind system with it. No other mmo has player power tied to it tho. It was a bad idea to tie the powers to the rep in the first place but they had to do so to get players to do it in the first place because there is nothing beyond the reps.
That is a scary thought - you are saying instead of real content - all this game will get are buckets of rep systems:(
Kind of. I mean the Dyson (Voth) system is what we need to keep in mind. It's the latest rep. And it's the model they're using for making the grinds "easier."
Well with that comes all of their content experiments rolled into one.
There's space STFs (Storming the Spire for example). There's ground battle zones. There's space battle zones. There's even daily supply run missions.
And there's a story. With the new featured episode sort of snugly meshed right into it (The Worf Voice Over and the Tuvok Voice Over).
So yeah, I think the new rep systems (though I exaggerated in my list. In a year, we're lucky if we see two new ones?) ... anyways new rep systems will contain all kinds of things including the trickle of new story content that comes with it.
The good of this is it seems like they're FINALLY starting to expand on their overall storyline (Undine and Iconians).
The bad news is this is going to be a trickle and not a ton of new stuff.
Also, they're working on a new expansion. And that might bring with it a chunk of story content like the last one did. No new faction, but new missions for the factions there already are.
I think they're finally starting to incorporate their "seasons" with a more inclusive overall design schedule. In other words, they're putting missions out. Slowly. But they are coming out. Which in the past wasn't what they did a lot of as they tried to say new seasons were for new mechanics.
Yeah but the point is they could have capped this without making people feel like they are taking stuff off them, there was no need for that.
Really this change is a HUGE buff to PvP balance and a BIG Nerf to PvE
In PvP the amount of passives + OP doffs + OP consoles + OP traits + changes to team abilities was making some ships indestructible. For PvP they could have put in a system that would disable all rep passives.
This was a bad way to go about it - they could have left things as is for PvE - because things are so easy if you know what you are doing the passives don't matter. So what if 1 or 2 players in a Infected space are carrying 3 noobs as long as the objectives are getting met.
At bare minimum they should increase it to 1 passive for each rep system - so 5 and 5 - or they just might find that not many people will bother doing any new rep systems.
Bottom line is this: They are nerfing the stuff that players actually worked hard for - and keeping all the Pay - to Win stuff intact. This sends a very bad message out to all the players who put up with the grind of this "content"
This is excellent news! I'm looking forward to actually having a chance in PvP.
Hi Antzudan... this isn't directed at you cause I agree with you great for PvP.
For anyone that was doubting my point earlier though about Rep and gear creep in general being a major Perception issue in PvP. Here is a little bit of proof.
Yeah but the point is they could have capped this without making people feel like they are taking stuff off them, there was no need for that.
They didn't cap it like people in this thread are raging that they did. They went in and buffed all the current powers. So it's a softer hit. Granted a lot of folks are either ignoring that or didn't read the buffs in the blog entry.
They also detailed very recently in a previoud blog how they made the rep grind easier. But again, people are overlooking that.
They softened this change a lot.
And yet there's a ton of complaints.
So I tend to think that no matter what they did, this furor and rage would still exist.
I think it comes down to population. Honestly its why I believe your idea wouldn't work, at least not in that way. Perhaps some form of smart system that would average out the players in the que and put them in a proper tier. So that people would just que for a PvE... at that point they could remove the Normal and E modes... just have a one que... then it would just take the 5 players with the closest level to one another and average that out... auto selecting a tier. Yes I could see that work.
To be honest though I still think there current choice is better. As it solves the real issue of future power creep... as I believe Cryptic is going to continue giving us a new rep every 3-6 months.
At least we have talked about one more viable option... and to be honest I could see your idea working with the new trait system as well... Traits are not the only source of Creep... perhaps they could also tally a "gear" score for every player and use that to determine a team "gear" score in which to balance the level of difficulty.
Your idea might have merit in solving some other issues they are no doubt thinking about.
Yeah, i see where you're headed with this.
It was a thought, my next wouldve been along the lines of a averaging system, which could also work.
With the power creep tho, well, thats kinda easy to fix, just make the content harder as we progress. Like the storyline. Then it evens it all out. If they can make it work progressively in storyline, cant see why they cant make it work in anything else, is all im tryin to say
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
The good of this is it seems like they're FINALLY starting to expand on their overall storyline (Undine and Iconians).
Well lets hope they do do that more then just one ore two missions. Cause Unidne is just an another rep grind as well I am sure in many ways. I know there will be the obligatory grind missions for the rep. I do agree though it would be nice to see a real featured episode wrapped up with that advances the games story for more then just one or two missions.
Well, its not a chore for me at all. I liked working for what I have in it, and will continue to do so. If you feel you need a break... then by all means, find yourself some other relaxation mate. Perhaps some other game where they give away all the stuff from the very beginning and everyone is an equal whether they're 2 minutes or 2 years old might suit you?
In that case I suggest something like Battleship, because frankly, even Farmville might be too much for you.
For me? Who said anything about me? Why are you immediately assuming that my argument is from personal experience when I have never conveyed anything that implies that?
I don't see it as a nerf. They are buffing rep traits and letting players decide which trait is worth the slot. I will take a stronger rep trait over a weaker, more numerous, passive any day. More customization for me is always a good thing!
I don't see it as a nerf. They are buffing rep traits and letting players decide which trait is worth the slot. I will take a stronger rep trait over a weaker, more numerous, passive any day. More customization for me is always a good thing!
Brody, ToS Veteran.
The are boosting the skills but it won't be as high as you have all 16 passive skills. That's the major problem. If they boosted it too much it will be another power creep.
So, It would have been wiser making the base passive skills to 16. The original four reputation systems. Then pick and choose. So, they could have 200 reputation systems(which is stupid) but only 16 passive skills can be used.
Then the people complaining about power creep have to earn it abilities, like the seasoned players. Period. They could also make the Borg and Undine truly as powerful as they are potrayed. Then people would have to earn the skills to go against them.
Yeah, i see where you're headed with this.
It was a thought, my next wouldve been along the lines of a averaging system, which could also work.
With the power creep tho, well, thats kinda easy to fix, just make the content harder as we progress. Like the storyline. Then it evens it all out. If they can make it work progressively in storyline, cant see why they cant make it work in anything else, is all im tryin to say
I agree... it just gets harder to keep that up.
Imagine if there are only 5 people in a que... and 4 of them are Ultra Nightmare mode level toons and one is a completely fresh Player... does it just not pop in that case or does it pop in a Nightmare mode with one noob along.
That is where I think a smart averaging system could work... so new players don't end up playing a game where nothing ever pops. (imagine trying to get a Level 46 Infected to pop right now).
Your right though I can see a system like that working. I would just love to see it on the back end... so players never see it... just one que per mission. (no more Normal / E mode confusion)... just have the system auto balance it. They simply make 4-5 levels for each mission. The system could keep score on people... tracking there DPS / HPS / Deaths / Complete times ... ect and when you que up... the system would look something like this. (behind the scenes)
Player one DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Two DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Three DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player four DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Five DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Team Average = DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30 Auto select difficulty level 4.
That could really work as far as balancing levels of gear... because it goes right to player skill instead of gear levels. It would be in fact more accurate in placing people in the right difficulty settings. (lets be honest even terrible players can earn gear. lol)
What I love... is the EXACT same tech could be used in PvP. Instead of tracking Complete times they track wins... instead of deaths per run... they track K/D ratios... and IN TD Mancoms math for our Leader board team balanacing tools uses some log math tricks to score people a "Style" mark which represents use of CC skilss ect...
Same tech for both the PvP and PvE ques... in PvP it would auto balance the teams in the new pug que... in PvE it would auto balance the power creep.
Not if you build right. PvP honestly is still very possible with out a ton of rep. Yes this change should make PvP more accessable for most people honestly. Yes I can tool around in one of my tacs and pop people stupid fast... but right now I can do that while retaining basicly 2 free Armor units... + double shield regen... and annoyinng things like On Crit hit shield regeneration.
So right now if you are built right and survive my attack... you still have little chance to be honest because I can tank you as well.
This change will mean if I want to maintain that extra bonus on the offense side... I have to drop ALL my defensive rep perks... which are pretty hefty really.
I don't see this being a major change in PvP in general... if we are comparing 2 teams that both had full reps... this will however make a huge difference for new players who only had a few rep tiers. (enough to activate 4 tier 2s for example). So yes it will be more about skill.
If you are serious about doing more in PvP though msg me if you would like some build help... or stop by the PvP seciton on the forum... lots of great info there and honestly 99% of the people that post there regular like are all very nice and helpful. We enjoy helping new players (sorry new to PvP or those not super in love with it you know what I mean) learn a little more and improve. Having more good players to shot at and be shot by is VERY good. Yes it is one reason why you will so likely more PvP players liking this change then PvE players... still maintain its better for both game modes... but ya anyway... hit us up if you are interested.
And here we are at the crux of your basis for acceptance of this change. You are a PvPr.
Gonna say it one last time in simple Dev paycheck speak...Devs if you make this change you will loose $620-$820 per month. This is the amount me and my friends spend each month on your ZEN store to play this game in PVE. We have maxed all rep fields and all we do is Fleet runs for fleet marks for 2-3hours each night.
WE are your paycheck. You can cater to the low pvp population all you want. If you limit the amount of passives we are done. We all spoke about this in-depth last night and if you limit even one passive and stop the gain of new passives from the new reps...you can explain to your PwE overlords that you catered to Antoniosaleri and his ilk and explain how you lost long term paying members in favor of non existant new free players and pvprs.
So remember everyone that if just six players are no longer dumping real cash into this game the future of this game may not be as happy as some would have you believe. But you enjoy your new special 4 passive cap and sit there and wonder where some players have gone.
i can still see that pvp fight club wanna be scrub still can't do basic math. 8+x > 4. x being any future rep's passive abilities that under the old system we could use.
**** even straight up 8>4. but lemme guess ur gonna say well U CAN SWAP THEM OUT.
there are going to be 4 choices that are better than the others plain and simple, the fact that if i wanted to swap out the 4 best choices with subpar **** doesnt negate the fact that 8+x>4.
The are boosting the skills but it won't be as high as you have all 16 passive skills. That's the major problem. If they boosted it too much it will be another power creep.
So, It would have been wiser making the base passive skills to 16. The original four reputation systems. Then pick and choose. So, they could have 200 reputation systems(which is stupid) but only 16 passive skills can be used.
Then the people complaining about power creep have to earn it abilities, like the seasoned players. Period. They could also make the Borg and Undine truly as powerful as they are potrayed. Then people would have to earn the skills to go against them.
I love how Hawk used the 500 dps and 40k dps analogy from a fresh 50 to a vet 50
Fact is with the current high run of 83k dps on infected with a BFAW Scimitar - I bet this new changes will easily up the max to over 100k DPS!!
Advanced Targeting Systems: Increased the Critical Severity bonus from +10% to +20%.
Precision: Increased critical hit chance bonus from 3 to 5%.
Omega Weapon Training: This power no longer gives a bonus to Starship Weapons skill. Instead, it provides a direct bonus to damage. It now grants a larger bonus to damage than before.
Omega Graviton Amplifier: Updated this proc's description to explain that it has a chance to be triggered with each weapon attack instead of once per cycle like other procs. This is merely a text change, this power has always worked like this. In addition, this proc's damage is doubled against the Borg.
i can still see that pvp fight club wanna be scrub still can't do basic math. 8+x > 4. x being any future rep's passive abilities that under the old system we could use.
**** even straight up 8>4. but lemme guess ur gonna say well U CAN SWAP THEM OUT.
there are going to be 4 choices that are better than the others plain and simple, the fact that if i wanted to swap out the 4 best choices with subpar **** doesnt negate the fact that 8+x>4.
inb4 bull****.
Nods. Some people just don't get this is a extreme NERF to the elite and eventually those people who want to skill up.
It's a flat out and clear as a blank white paper. NERF.
And here we are at the crux of your basis for acceptance of this change. You are a PvPr.
Gonna say it one last time in simple Dev paycheck speak...Devs if you make this change you will loose $620-$820 per month. This is the amount me and my friends spend each month on your ZEN store to play this game in PVE. We have maxed all rep fields and all we do is Fleet runs for fleet marks for 2-3hours each night.
WE are your paycheck. You can cater to the low pvp population all you want. If you limit the amount of passives we are done. We all spoke about this in-depth last night and if you limit even one passive and stop the gain of new passives from the new reps...you can explain to your PwE overlords that you catered to Antoniosaleri and his ilk and explain how you lost long term paying members in favor of non existant new free players and pvprs.
So remember everyone that if just six players are no longer dumping real cash into this game the future of this game may not be as happy as some would have you believe. But you enjoy your new special 4 passive cap and sit there and wonder where some players have gone.
I think they will go by there own internal information on who pays for what.
I have no doubt you a re a paying customer. Really I don't see how this much effects you to be honest. If all you do is run fleet missions this will in fact make those runs faster. You will be able to select all the new Doubled up Offensive options and smoke that Fleet content all that much faster.
Yes I play a lot of PvP... I also play a lot of PvE... I as well spend a good chunk of chainge. I also have many friends who also spend lots of change. They are however mostly on Hiatus right now because the state of this game is really not very wonderful.
Making this change and a string of other good balance choices may just bring back the money they lost when they all decided to play stompy robots for awhile.
So I guess your friends and my friends net out. what are they to do.
i can still see that pvp fight club wanna be scrub still can't do basic math. 8+x > 4. x being any future rep's passive abilities that under the old system we could use.
**** even straight up 8>4. but lemme guess ur gonna say well U CAN SWAP THEM OUT.
there are going to be 4 choices that are better than the others plain and simple, the fact that if i wanted to swap out the 4 best choices with subpar **** doesnt negate the fact that 8+x>4.
inb4 bull****.
At least someone knows math. Also, the devs stated that the Dyson rep was too fast and all reps need to be slower so all rep grinds are going to be slower. Everyone who says it is going to be easier is lying. The devs stated in the recent blog that for a fact that the dyson rep got done too quickly and all reps are going to be nerfed to take longer. go read people.
Really this change is a HUGE buff to PvP balance and a BIG Nerf to PvE
In PvP the amount of passives + OP doffs + OP consoles + OP traits + changes to team abilities was making some ships indestructible. For PvP they could have put in a system that would disable all rep passives.
This was a bad way to go about it - they could have left things as is for PvE - because things are so easy if you know what you are doing the passives don't matter. So what if 1 or 2 players in a Infected space are carrying 3 noobs as long as the objectives are getting met.
At bare minimum they should increase it to 1 passive for each rep system - so 5 and 5 - or they just might find that not many people will bother doing any new rep systems.
Bottom line is this: They are nerfing the stuff that players actually worked hard for - and keeping all the Pay - to Win stuff intact. This sends a very bad message out to all the players who put up with the grind of this "content"
Ok so shall I do this lovely math, 8 skills, cut in half but doubled in effectiveness = zero net difference, regardless of if you PvP or PvE
i can still see that pvp fight club wanna be scrub still can't do basic math. 8+x > 4. x being any future rep's passive abilities that under the old system we could use.
**** even straight up 8>4. but lemme guess ur gonna say well U CAN SWAP THEM OUT.
there are going to be 4 choices that are better than the others plain and simple, the fact that if i wanted to swap out the 4 best choices with subpar **** doesnt negate the fact that 8+x>4.
inb4 bull****.
No I am going to tell you the cold hard truth.
The offensive rep traits are all getting doubled in effect... YOU don't need to heal in PvE.
So you just got your rep traits doubled for free.
Win Win for you Pve Only guys.
Yes that was facetious I know ... sorry. Really is the truth though.
Granted I haven't read through every single post but one comment I'd like to throw out there is this. What's going to be the motivating factor for bothering with reputation projects if there are no benefits in running them beyond vendor-trash gear. Just because it's a purple Mk. 12 doesn't mean I need 100 of them or that they are a better fit than what I already have.
Once I have loaded up my slots with the traits I want, the only incentive to swap will be if the next round is significantly more powerful than what I have currently slotted. I suppose that fits within the stated goal of not having too much of a margin between VA level players but I thought the whole reputation system was designed to have an alternate progression.
There's a huge variance between ensign and VA, why not accept an equally huge variance in VA Rep Level 0 and VA Max Rep Level. Is it a good design decision to make someone who has completed every rep in the game equal to someone who simply has completed the latest rep system because each new rep system obsoletes all previous one?
I think you'll still have massive power creep in the game and while this may be a fix to help make sense to a level cap increase, I still question whether this is a good move.
STO has too many currencies and too many "levels". Perhaps some ideas on how to simplify to 2-3 different currencies and a single numeric level indicator would be good to start tossing about.
Comments
Yeah but the point is they could have capped this without making people feel like they are taking stuff off them, there was no need for that.
Well, in that case, maybe they should sit on it for a while longer and think some more rather doing this. I just think its a bit extreme when there could be many other options available.
Anyway, So, we have conduits elite and normal right? How about, we have instead of elite and normals, we have conduit t0, conduit tier 1, conduit t2, conduit t3, conduit t4, and conduit t5.
You cant play conduit t1 to t5 until you have completed the previous tiers.
Example, I got a new toon just hit lvl 50. I want to play conduit. I can only join the conduit tier 0 group as i am not tier 1. But once i hit tier 1, i can then play conduit t1, and so forth and so forth. I think this could work. As compared to what they are doing now by nerfing reps, i think this will be a bad mistake. But, have been known to be wrong
We can only hope....i like my reps
I think it comes down to population. Honestly its why I believe your idea wouldn't work, at least not in that way. Perhaps some form of smart system that would average out the players in the que and put them in a proper tier. So that people would just que for a PvE... at that point they could remove the Normal and E modes... just have one que per mission... then it would just take the 5 players with the closest level to one another and average that out... auto selecting a tier. Yes I could see that work.
To be honest though I still think there current choice is better. As it solves the real issue of future power creep... as I believe Cryptic is going to continue giving us a new rep every 3-6 months.
At least we have talked about one more viable option... and to be honest I could see your idea working with the new trait system as well... Traits are not the only source of Creep... perhaps they could also tally a "gear" score for every player and use that to determine a team "gear" score in which to balance the level of difficulty.
Your idea might have merit in solving some other issues they are no doubt thinking about. They could take that system a step further then gear score even... and keep track of how well people do in PvE missions... and score people behind the scenes. They could use that data to balance teams out as best as possible with what is in the que and then balancing the mission based on the average score of the players on the team. (consequently this is system we have been asking them to implement in the PvP ques for awhile now)...
This is now a system I could see working for BOTH PvP and PvE... which makes me very happy because the tech is more likely to be pursued as a PvE solution.
A question first:
Not sure I am reading this correctly, but does this mean that you were not able to see that there was a power creep issue by players doing PVE, and STFs? The issue was not clear till it was seen in PVP?
My thoughts:
Personally, I am not sure how this will play out. I am interested in trying it on Tribble this Thursday, or Friday. I can see how it will help to balance the PVP and PVE aspect of the game as far as passive abilities go.
However, this will only block one side of the power creep issue, right?
The reason I ask is because ship builds, and skill tree have more to do with how much DPS you can put out, than your passives. (I am not saying they don't help). I only asked because I have a character that I can keep up with almost any high DPS Scimitar in STFs, and PVE with mine. However, I don't have any rep systems to T5 yet. I only have a few Tiers in Omega, and Dyson, and did nothing to Romulan, or Nukara at all.
My Scimitar is close to what they can do. I can actually match them if I were to move some skill points around in my skill tree to add to my DPS, or buy fleet gear, or MK XII purple weapons at least. This is without me having access to the passives they are getting from their rep systems.
Are there other plans to change other systems in the game to help give a more equal feel?
I am not trying to bash this idea. I do see that there is something that needs to be done, because as we keep getting rep systems with every new season, and getting 2 new space, and ground passives, we will eventually be able to one shot the cubes like they do us.
I was just curious since it has been mentioned that it is to make things more equal between new level 50, and vet. level 50s.
Thanks,
Tim.
The better idea would be when new content comes out you can not expect to do it with a brand new toon. If it's end game it's going to take you time and effort to progress into it. No other mmo has it's end game missions and content come out and have people expect to be able to beat them that just hit lvl 50.
The problem is the reps themselves. Reps should be something that helps a player into progression. This is the purpose they serve in every single other mmo. They do not provide a bonus that stays with you forever. They are there to help with progression, give cool vanity rewards, and neat titles.
In Star Trek Online they are a source of player power progression because they are the end game. You do the content to progress the rep to be able to do....what? This game needs a end game.
Almost all mmos have a rep system and grind system with it. No other mmo has player power tied to it tho. It was a bad idea to tie the powers to the rep in the first place but they had to do so to get players to do it in the first place because there is nothing beyond the reps.
Kind of. I mean the Dyson (Voth) system is what we need to keep in mind. It's the latest rep. And it's the model they're using for making the grinds "easier."
Well with that comes all of their content experiments rolled into one.
There's space STFs (Storming the Spire for example). There's ground battle zones. There's space battle zones. There's even daily supply run missions.
And there's a story. With the new featured episode sort of snugly meshed right into it (The Worf Voice Over and the Tuvok Voice Over).
So yeah, I think the new rep systems (though I exaggerated in my list. In a year, we're lucky if we see two new ones?) ... anyways new rep systems will contain all kinds of things including the trickle of new story content that comes with it.
The good of this is it seems like they're FINALLY starting to expand on their overall storyline (Undine and Iconians).
The bad news is this is going to be a trickle and not a ton of new stuff.
Also, they're working on a new expansion. And that might bring with it a chunk of story content like the last one did. No new faction, but new missions for the factions there already are.
I think they're finally starting to incorporate their "seasons" with a more inclusive overall design schedule. In other words, they're putting missions out. Slowly. But they are coming out. Which in the past wasn't what they did a lot of as they tried to say new seasons were for new mechanics.
Really this change is a HUGE buff to PvP balance and a BIG Nerf to PvE
In PvP the amount of passives + OP doffs + OP consoles + OP traits + changes to team abilities was making some ships indestructible. For PvP they could have put in a system that would disable all rep passives.
This was a bad way to go about it - they could have left things as is for PvE - because things are so easy if you know what you are doing the passives don't matter. So what if 1 or 2 players in a Infected space are carrying 3 noobs as long as the objectives are getting met.
At bare minimum they should increase it to 1 passive for each rep system - so 5 and 5 - or they just might find that not many people will bother doing any new rep systems.
Bottom line is this: They are nerfing the stuff that players actually worked hard for - and keeping all the Pay - to Win stuff intact. This sends a very bad message out to all the players who put up with the grind of this "content"
Hi Antzudan... this isn't directed at you cause I agree with you great for PvP.
For anyone that was doubting my point earlier though about Rep and gear creep in general being a major Perception issue in PvP. Here is a little bit of proof.
They didn't cap it like people in this thread are raging that they did. They went in and buffed all the current powers. So it's a softer hit. Granted a lot of folks are either ignoring that or didn't read the buffs in the blog entry.
They also detailed very recently in a previoud blog how they made the rep grind easier. But again, people are overlooking that.
They softened this change a lot.
And yet there's a ton of complaints.
So I tend to think that no matter what they did, this furor and rage would still exist.
Yeah, i see where you're headed with this.
It was a thought, my next wouldve been along the lines of a averaging system, which could also work.
With the power creep tho, well, thats kinda easy to fix, just make the content harder as we progress. Like the storyline. Then it evens it all out. If they can make it work progressively in storyline, cant see why they cant make it work in anything else, is all im tryin to say
Well lets hope they do do that more then just one ore two missions. Cause Unidne is just an another rep grind as well I am sure in many ways. I know there will be the obligatory grind missions for the rep. I do agree though it would be nice to see a real featured episode wrapped up with that advances the games story for more then just one or two missions.
For me? Who said anything about me? Why are you immediately assuming that my argument is from personal experience when I have never conveyed anything that implies that?
No one said anything about my life brah. Let's stick to what was actually posted.
Irrelevant. You strawmanned the analogy into a point I wasn't making.
Can you actually retort directly to my point, or are you gonna continue dancing around my argument?
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Brody, ToS Veteran.
The are boosting the skills but it won't be as high as you have all 16 passive skills. That's the major problem. If they boosted it too much it will be another power creep.
So, It would have been wiser making the base passive skills to 16. The original four reputation systems. Then pick and choose. So, they could have 200 reputation systems(which is stupid) but only 16 passive skills can be used.
Then the people complaining about power creep have to earn it abilities, like the seasoned players. Period. They could also make the Borg and Undine truly as powerful as they are potrayed. Then people would have to earn the skills to go against them.
I agree... it just gets harder to keep that up.
Imagine if there are only 5 people in a que... and 4 of them are Ultra Nightmare mode level toons and one is a completely fresh Player... does it just not pop in that case or does it pop in a Nightmare mode with one noob along.
That is where I think a smart averaging system could work... so new players don't end up playing a game where nothing ever pops. (imagine trying to get a Level 46 Infected to pop right now).
Your right though I can see a system like that working. I would just love to see it on the back end... so players never see it... just one que per mission. (no more Normal / E mode confusion)... just have the system auto balance it. They simply make 4-5 levels for each mission. The system could keep score on people... tracking there DPS / HPS / Deaths / Complete times ... ect and when you que up... the system would look something like this. (behind the scenes)
Player one DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Two DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Three DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player four DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Player Five DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Team Average = DPS 8k HPS 2k Average deaths per match 0.3 Average complete time 4:30
Auto select difficulty level 4.
That could really work as far as balancing levels of gear... because it goes right to player skill instead of gear levels. It would be in fact more accurate in placing people in the right difficulty settings. (lets be honest even terrible players can earn gear. lol)
What I love... is the EXACT same tech could be used in PvP. Instead of tracking Complete times they track wins... instead of deaths per run... they track K/D ratios... and IN TD Mancoms math for our Leader board team balanacing tools uses some log math tricks to score people a "Style" mark which represents use of CC skilss ect...
Same tech for both the PvP and PvE ques... in PvP it would auto balance the teams in the new pug que... in PvE it would auto balance the power creep.
And here we are at the crux of your basis for acceptance of this change. You are a PvPr.
Gonna say it one last time in simple Dev paycheck speak...Devs if you make this change you will loose $620-$820 per month. This is the amount me and my friends spend each month on your ZEN store to play this game in PVE. We have maxed all rep fields and all we do is Fleet runs for fleet marks for 2-3hours each night.
WE are your paycheck. You can cater to the low pvp population all you want. If you limit the amount of passives we are done. We all spoke about this in-depth last night and if you limit even one passive and stop the gain of new passives from the new reps...you can explain to your PwE overlords that you catered to Antoniosaleri and his ilk and explain how you lost long term paying members in favor of non existant new free players and pvprs.
So remember everyone that if just six players are no longer dumping real cash into this game the future of this game may not be as happy as some would have you believe. But you enjoy your new special 4 passive cap and sit there and wonder where some players have gone.
**** even straight up 8>4. but lemme guess ur gonna say well U CAN SWAP THEM OUT.
there are going to be 4 choices that are better than the others plain and simple, the fact that if i wanted to swap out the 4 best choices with subpar **** doesnt negate the fact that 8+x>4.
inb4 bull****.
It what's Cryptic does best. Don't think for the future, work for the now and don't fix most bugs!
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So, I made this picture. Feel free to copy and do whatever with it.
I love how Hawk used the 500 dps and 40k dps analogy from a fresh 50 to a vet 50
Fact is with the current high run of 83k dps on infected with a BFAW Scimitar - I bet this new changes will easily up the max to over 100k DPS!!
Advanced Targeting Systems: Increased the Critical Severity bonus from +10% to +20%.
Precision: Increased critical hit chance bonus from 3 to 5%.
Omega Weapon Training: This power no longer gives a bonus to Starship Weapons skill. Instead, it provides a direct bonus to damage. It now grants a larger bonus to damage than before.
Omega Graviton Amplifier: Updated this proc's description to explain that it has a chance to be triggered with each weapon attack instead of once per cycle like other procs. This is merely a text change, this power has always worked like this. In addition, this proc's damage is doubled against the Borg.
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Nods. Some people just don't get this is a extreme NERF to the elite and eventually those people who want to skill up.
It's a flat out and clear as a blank white paper. NERF.
i give it a couple of hours
I think they will go by there own internal information on who pays for what.
I have no doubt you a re a paying customer. Really I don't see how this much effects you to be honest. If all you do is run fleet missions this will in fact make those runs faster.
Yes I play a lot of PvP... I also play a lot of PvE... I as well spend a good chunk of chainge. I also have many friends who also spend lots of change. They are however mostly on Hiatus right now because the state of this game is really not very wonderful.
Making this change and a string of other good balance choices may just bring back the money they lost when they all decided to play stompy robots for awhile.
So I guess your friends and my friends net out.
No. I disagree. Let the people who want the same abilities earn it so it can be used. So, like you did they can do also. Period.
Also make the content harder like it should be so those abilities can be used fully!
At least someone knows math. Also, the devs stated that the Dyson rep was too fast and all reps need to be slower so all rep grinds are going to be slower. Everyone who says it is going to be easier is lying. The devs stated in the recent blog that for a fact that the dyson rep got done too quickly and all reps are going to be nerfed to take longer. go read people.
learn math and reading
Ok so shall I do this lovely math, 8 skills, cut in half but doubled in effectiveness = zero net difference, regardless of if you PvP or PvE
No I am going to tell you the cold hard truth.
The offensive rep traits are all getting doubled in effect... YOU don't need to heal in PvE.
So you just got your rep traits doubled for free.
Win Win for you Pve Only guys.
Yes that was facetious I know ... sorry. Really is the truth though.
Once I have loaded up my slots with the traits I want, the only incentive to swap will be if the next round is significantly more powerful than what I have currently slotted. I suppose that fits within the stated goal of not having too much of a margin between VA level players but I thought the whole reputation system was designed to have an alternate progression.
There's a huge variance between ensign and VA, why not accept an equally huge variance in VA Rep Level 0 and VA Max Rep Level. Is it a good design decision to make someone who has completed every rep in the game equal to someone who simply has completed the latest rep system because each new rep system obsoletes all previous one?
I think you'll still have massive power creep in the game and while this may be a fix to help make sense to a level cap increase, I still question whether this is a good move.
STO has too many currencies and too many "levels". Perhaps some ideas on how to simplify to 2-3 different currencies and a single numeric level indicator would be good to start tossing about.
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