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Season 9 Dev Blog #5: Changes to Reputation Powers

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  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    OK so lets go over your "choices" then. :)

    So you have;
    Omega weapon training now... cool.
    Omega Graviton Amp... I see yes you will miss this I am sure your DPS will drop by 20 or so. :)
    Romulan peercision... ok good choice to bad it isn't being doubled or something.
    Sensor targeting assualt.... ok then Placate is getting removed in favor of a wepaon offline... ok I guess that sounds really offensive. my mistake.
    Nukura enhanced Shield pen... well this one is getting doubled regardless it is a DPS loss in PvE in case you where not aware... seriously run a few ISE with and with out and parse them... you will do more DPS with out this trait. That won't change much in PvE when it gets doubled either.
    Nukura Aux offense trait... cool depends on your set up might be helping you might not be if your a typical PvE A2B runner.
    Dyson advanced targeting... yep good choice to bad its not getting doubled oh wait thats right it is.
    Dyson - Tactical advantage... = to about beta .5 on one target and doesn't help your team ya not so great to be honest.

    So looking at them what would your run now in PvE.
    Omega Weapon training
    Romulan Percision
    Nukura Aux offense
    Dyson advanced targeting

    There you go what do you give up in terms of actual offense. Nothing. You gain. You loose a the almost none existent borg Omega Amp (if you really have that selected)... you gain the new bonuses like +20 CrtD instead of +10.

    Overall your offense just went up... not sure how you can see that as a bad thing. Is it a nerf sure it is to your healing..... but why are you worried about that if all you do is PvE content. For a new Trait PvE setup you end up with MORE offense then before.

    You are correct with 2/4 of the traits you selected.

    Without numbers there is no way to tell which ones to take after that. Regardless of what you think you know.

    Whether or not my offense just currently got a boost, and without numbers its still debatable, my offense suffers long term from this change as any future reps will either require me to give something up, or they won't be worth doing, where as under the current system its a stacking game.

    Like I said, it doesn't affect my healing at all cause all offensive trait choices.

    Again the more offense than before still depends on the numbers that currently aren't on the blog.

    Either way I still get screwed long term even if things balance out, or go a bit either way short term.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Also make the content harder like it should be so those abilities can be used fully!
    So the new level 50s can't play the content at all because the power gap is too large? That's just bad developing right there. :<
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    So the new level 50s can't play the content at all because the power gap is too large? That's just bad developing right there. :<

    the power gap in pve is insignificant since npcs are ****.
  • rinksterrinkster Member Posts: 3,549 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    No doubt they are putting the end to rep creep. that is happening even if you guys manage to convince them to allow you to keep all the rep you have now (allowing you to slot 8).

    It is NOT a system they can continue... not unless you want to see new rep traits that are so low they will be not worth worrying about. They won't keep creeping the game... its already at a point where they can't release content and have it work right for the majority of players because people are all over the place in terms of creep levels.

    And if this proposal actually addressed power creep I'd agree with you.

    Fact is, it doesn't.

    Not by itself and not as currently proposed.

    What it does is try to slow down one aspect of future potential power creep, while leaving mechanisms that contribute far more intact.

    Controlling power creep is a laudable aim, but this isn't it.
  • spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    OK so lets go over your "choices" then. :)

    So you have;
    Omega weapon training now... cool.
    Omega Graviton Amp... I see yes you will miss this I am sure your DPS will drop by 20 or so. :)
    Romulan peercision... ok good choice to bad it isn't being doubled or something.
    Sensor targeting assualt.... ok then Placate is getting removed in favor of a wepaon offline... ok I guess that sounds really offensive. my mistake.
    Nukura enhanced Shield pen... well this one is getting doubled regardless it is a DPS loss in PvE in case you where not aware... seriously run a few ISE with and with out and parse them... you will do more DPS with out this trait. That won't change much in PvE when it gets doubled either.
    Nukura Aux offense trait... cool depends on your set up might be helping you might not be if your a typical PvE A2B runner.
    Dyson advanced targeting... yep good choice to bad its not getting doubled oh wait thats right it is.
    Dyson - Tactical advantage... = to about beta .5 on one target and doesn't help your team ya not so great to be honest.

    So looking at them what would your run now in PvE.
    Omega Weapon training
    Romulan Percision
    Nukura Aux offense
    Dyson advanced targeting

    There you go what do you give up in terms of actual offense. Nothing. You gain. You loose a the almost none existent borg Omega Amp (if you really have that selected)... you gain the new bonuses like +20 CrtD instead of +10.

    Overall your offense just went up... not sure how you can see that as a bad thing. Is it a nerf sure it is to your healing..... but why are you worried about that if all you do is PvE content. For a new Trait PvE setup you end up with MORE offense then before.

    I can almost guarantee one thing for sure after this goes live : massive forum rage over failed pug ESTF missions!! Why? Because most people will pick the offensive passives and will be popping like zits on a teenagers face - used to having all the extra heals. The nerf to the Borg set will only make this worse. The only thing that will stop it from being a full on calamity is the recent removal of shared team cool down powers.

    Then of course I also expect the DPS 50k club to start and Infected elite to be gone is 60 seconds!
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    the power gap in pve is insignificant since npcs are ****.
    So are you saying that we should let NPCs be four asterisks? Or should they scale to the players with full rep abilities?

    Please, tell me how you're invisioning a game with continuously growing top players. How can new players catch up? How can NPCs stay challenging to top players without making them impossible to kill for new players?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    iconians wrote: »
    I guess that's where I differ. I see pandering to people who really have no business trying to play video games for the sake of their wallets as poisonous to the video game industry.

    You make things easier, you lower the bar, you water things down. But you do so at the cost of quality and innovation. You cheapen what games are capable of doing for the sake of pleasing a vast multitude of people who can barely turn on a computer without third party assistance.

    It's a poison pill that the industry has willingly swallowed for the sake of being able to stay competitive, but you introduce and encourage game stagnation which is a waste of educated minds who want to see new challenges and ideas published.

    It's an industry of gourmet chefs who studied abroad, but payroll demands they try to compete with McDonald's and Burger King for people who have no idea what foie gras is, but will readily scarf down a Big Mac.

    I have been trying to be as nice as I can to the devs cause I know they are trying.... really though lets be honest Cryptic isn't know for hiring the Michelangelo's of the industry. Anyone they have had that had some skill have mostly taken jobs elsewhere. Ok I'll shut up now cause I do think there are some smart people at Cryptic... perhaps not always the ones with the final say. lol :)

    Trust me as an old time gamer I agree with you in part... Its partly why things like SC are exciting to so many people. A game for Gamers produced by actual gamers. As a general rule ya they all play to the audience. I think we WILL see over the next 5-10 years though games really swing the other way.

    I say look at current pop culture. Would you have guessed 10 years ago that the hottest TV Comedy would be the big bang theory... that it would be renewed for 3 years, cause it pulls in 20 million+ viewers per episode. Or that on MAJOR media top 5 anticipated movies of 2014 would include 3 Marvel Super hero movies, a Johnney Depp Hard Sci fi Flick, and a Christopher Nolan directed Space movie called Intersteller that is supposed to involve worm holes and multiple dimensions. LOL

    The culture is being Geekafied... and it will translate into video games soon enough... At the rate things are going I wouldn't be shocked if my 90 year old grandmother started playing Eve. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    i already take all 8 offensive passives, so anything having to do with healing good or bad is completely irrelevant. anyone with max dps builds already ignores healing.

    so keep making yourself sound more stupid.

    Hmm.. I don't know. I take some of the healing and hull passive skills. There are a lot of players who try sneak attacks on me at Kerrat. It sucks for them I can take the damage they deal then I turn and starting bombarding them.

    Those passive skills are resourceful.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    So are you saying that we should let NPCs be four asterisks? Or should they scale to the players with full rep abilities?

    Please, tell me how you're invisioning a game with continuously growing top players. How can new players catch up? How can NPCs stay challenging to top players without making them impossible to kill for new players?

    adding another tier of difficulty that would be scaled after each season, and restricted to private queues.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    rinkster wrote: »
    And if this proposal actually addressed power creep I'd agree with you.

    Fact is, it doesn't.

    Not by itself and not as currently proposed.

    What it does is try to slow down one aspect of future potential power creep, while leaving mechanisms that contribute far more intact.

    Controlling power creep is a laudable aim, but this isn't it.

    I don't disagree they can't stop there... having said that its a good start. Because the rep systems are if not part of the problem now (which I will agree can be argued both ways) ... it will 100% be an issue later. When we get to 5 reps in a week or two I think its very hard to argue that creep is good for the game... after that ya its not good.

    I think a smart que system that put people into matches with equal level players and auto raised the settings would be cool... that in combo with this change could be very good for PvE. Same system could translate to PvP and do achieve the same goals.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    adding another tier of difficulty that would be scaled after each season, and restricted to private queues.
    I... :( uh...


    ...


    ...:mad:


    ...


    ...yeah that's not a bad idea. :P
  • captainbaileycaptainbailey Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    No doubt they are putting the end to rep creep. that is happening even if you guys manage to convince them to allow you to keep all the rep you have now (allowing you to slot 8).

    It is NOT a system they can continue... not unless you want to see new rep traits that are so low they will be not worth worrying about. They won't keep creeping the game... its already at a point where they can't release content and have it work right for the majority of players because people are all over the place in terms of creep levels.

    That is the issue though, you do not really need reputation powers to play pve content. You need to be competent. that doesnt mean this isnt a nerf or that this isnt right to take away what people have earned.

    However, this is solely being done for pvp. A player with 50 rep passives and a player with 0 can do the same ISE together so long they have good ship builds but pvp together, good luck. Another thing to remember, the player that has been here longer will always have something the other new player (doffs, gear, ship, etc) doesnt have to make them better in pvp. This is just a band-aid fix. Cryptic will have to nerf more things in the future to make new players happy and close the "gap" as they are claiming to be trying to do.

    However, why is cryptic forcing players to always choose 4 space or 4 ground passives when they are not needed. No captain obviously needs 4 ground traits in space nor 4 space traits while on ground. AT LEAST it should be modeled after captain traits where you can choose ANY 8 passives to your liking at any time.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    No doubt they are putting the end to rep creep. that is happening even if you guys manage to convince them to allow you to keep all the rep you have now (allowing you to slot 8).

    It is NOT a system they can continue... not unless you want to see new rep traits that are so low they will be not worth worrying about. They won't keep creeping the game... its already at a point where they can't release content and have it work right for the majority of players because people are all over the place in terms of creep levels.

    Of course, one possibility to deal with creep AND people overvaluing DPS/Tac consoles AND make PvP more viable for the noob would be...

    ... Rather than to bother fixing creep...

    CAP INCOMING DPS. For both players and NPCs.

    It could vary by enemy/ship type but the creep wouldn't matter if the enemy shrugged off all DPS in excess of 10k. You could have damage cap bleedover converted into a percentage chance to proc a heavy DOT or subsystem disable, making bleedover less pointless. Or maybe the player gains a chance to proc "Vigilance" for doing cap bleedover damage (the more the higher the chance of proc) which boosts defenses and movement or reduces cooldowns on defensive powers for the player doing the excess damage.

    Power creep would not be a concern if DPS were a two way street where your gear/skill determines the amount you can deal but player and enemy targets had hard caps on the incoming damage they could receive per second.

    And with those style of caps, creep is not a problem and this rep trait change is largely unnecessary.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I take it that these Rep traits will be in addition to our existing character traits?
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    That is the issue though, you do not really need reputation powers to play pve content. You need to be competent. that doesnt mean this isnt a nerf or that this isnt right to take away what people have earned.

    However, this is solely being done for pvp. A player with 50 rep passives and a player with 0 can do the same ISE together so long they have good ship builds but pvp together, good luck. Another thing to remember, the player that has been here longer will always have something the other new player (doffs, gear, ship, etc) doesnt have to make them better in pvp. This is just a band-aid fix. Cryptic will have to nerf more things in the future to make new players happy and close the "gap" as they are claiming to be trying to do.

    However, why is cryptic forcing players to always choose 4 space or 4 ground passives when they are not needed. No captain obviously needs 4 ground traits in space nor 4 space traits while on ground. AT LEAST it should be modeled after captain traits where you can choose ANY 8 passives to your liking at any time.

    What difference does this make if you can swap them for free at any time, aside from slowing down the beginning of a switch from ground or space.

    If it works with quick switch, you'd automatically change traits when swapping between space and ground anyway since your ground build would swap the equipped traits.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    What difference does this make if you can swap them for free at any time, aside from slowing down the beginning of a switch from ground or space.

    If it works with quick switch, you'd automatically change traits when swapping between space and ground anyway since your ground build would swap the equipped traits.

    ground in this game is quit the game bad.

    so people dont want to carry ground traits 24/7 if all they do is space.

    same with the character traits.
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    It's funny everyone is arguing or discussing what players earned who spent many hours doing so. Arguing about what to take from them and how best to do it?

    Not one person so far said the players should work up the reputation system. If they have a issue about power creep.

    This tells me some people are ready to bend over backwards which Cryptic is counting on. So, they can continue to get $$$ from new players.

    So, I will say it again.

    Learn to play better and build up through the current reputation system.
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    ground in this game is quit the game bad.

    so people dont want to carry ground traits 24/7 if all they do is space.

    same with the character traits.

    I wouldn't use the ground passive skills. I would use all space.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I wouldn't use the ground passive skills. I would use all space.

    exactly cause ground could go missing from this game and people would call it an improvement.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    lol so many pages
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  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    lol so many pages

    So, many pages, because Cryptic is full of "s $ $ t".

    Taking away what people earned in the name of balance. Although, players can earn the same thing.

    http://averyanthony.com/priv/sto/easytrack.jpg
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    ground in this game is quit the game bad.

    so people dont want to carry ground traits 24/7 if all they do is space.

    same with the character traits.

    My point is they won't be carrying them 24/7 if they equip different traits when they switch.
  • captainbaileycaptainbailey Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    What difference does this make if you can swap them for free at any time, aside from slowing down the beginning of a switch from ground or space.

    If it works with quick switch, you'd automatically change traits when swapping between space and ground anyway since your ground build would swap the equipped traits.

    So you are content having 4 useful and 4 useless skills at all times? It does not matter if you can change them at will, that is not even a useful statement. When you are in ISE, you can have only 4 space passives and 4 ground passives active. I am asking why are we being FORCED to have ground passives while in space. Likewise while your in BZ you can have only 4 ground and 4 space passives active so why would you need to have 4 space passives active while on ground. this comment about the ability to change is IRRELEVANT because you still have 4/4 S/G while in space or ground which is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. I say allow players to choose ANY 8 PASSIVE THEY SEE FIT AT ANY TIME SPACE OR GROUND.
  • mewmaster101mewmaster101 Member Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    So you are content having 4 useful and 4 useless skills at all times? It does not matter if you can change them at will, that is not even a useful statement. When you are in ISE, you can have only 4 space passives and 4 ground passives active. I am asking why are we being FORCED to have ground passives while in space. Likewise while your in BZ you can have only 4 ground and 4 space passives active so why would you need to have 4 space passives active while on ground. this comment about the ability to change is IRRELEVANT because you still have 4/4 S/G while in space or ground which is TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. I say allow players to choose ANY 8 PASSIVE THEY SEE FIT AT ANY TIME SPACE OR GROUND.

    For the same reason we are forced to put points into ground no matter what, because they know that no one would ever use it unless forced into.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    My point is they won't be carrying them 24/7 if they equip different traits when they switch.

    ground sucks.
  • spacebaronlinespacebaronline Member Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    At this point I think the conversation is pointless - the devs have made up this new system and I highly doubt they would make anything but the smallest of changes.

    The only thing I would suggest that has any hope of being changed is the 4/4 which is derived from the current 4 reps.

    They should change it to 5/5 to represent the 5 reps that will be live in Season 9 - that would make it a little more palatable for most players as they could say that each rep system will get 1 passive slot added in the future. This would limit the power creep to a reasonable level, while still giving the impression that it is worth while to do a new rep system.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    unnecessary words.

    best. forum. name. ever.
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    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • chuxx500chuxx500 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I wish that game altering changes to systems could be discussed way before they will be actually implimented.

    What we have here is only a slight chance to make a minor change to the system as a whole before they roll out season 9 sometime in May.

    I'll play along and say we need 5 or 6 rep trait choices as 4 seems a bit too low.

    Wth the inevitable "best setup" figured out mere hours after season 9 hits I'm not sure what will be the incentive to do future reputations other than making new reps more powerful and thus returning the power creep.

    I will imagine that what I write next could actually happen within the constrained time before season 9, whilst knowing all too well that none of what I will suggest can happen even if the devs liked it.

    Game queues and content in general needed to be designed for an average build and thus a fully repped toon can do so much more than new toons thus making end game content design unmanageable.

    Make the content come in more than Vanilla.

    Assign points to the amount of rep one has and only allow a toon into a higher level when a certain rep level is achieved.

    Normal level can be played by all players but those with reputation attained will play with rep powers and passives turned off.

    Mixed teams would play at the level of the lowest in group so if 4 have max rep and one has none they play on normal.

    Advanced level queues would be available only to those with high enough rep.

    The rewards would be the same as normal but the challenge would be increased and reps would be in full affect.

    Elite level content would be only for those with high enough rep and the rewards would be increased as per usual.


    The other idea I have is to make a Reputation Skill Tree which would be similar to how the captain skill tree works.

    Every tier of every rep would award rep points as well as unlock passives.

    The rep passives would be greyed out until unlocked and would have a range of affectiveness based on the amount of rep points one puts into them.

    This way you still avoid the overpowered all reps at the same time conundrum we have now while also making future reps very attractive as even if you don't want the new passives you will want the new rep points.
  • vivenneanthonyvivenneanthony Member Posts: 1,278 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    At this point I think the conversation is pointless - the devs have made up this new system and I highly doubt they would make anything but the smallest of changes.

    The only thing I would suggest that has any hope of being changed is the 4/4 which is derived from the current 4 reps.

    They should change it to 5/5 to represent the 5 reps that will be live in Season 9 - that would make it a little more palatable for most players as they could say that each rep system will get 1 passive slot added in the future. This would limit the power creep to a reasonable level, while still giving the impression that it is worth while to do a new rep system.

    In that case Cryptic should burn up. I'll drink Romulan Ale to that.
  • captainbaileycaptainbailey Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    For the same reason we are forced to put points into ground no matter what, because they know that no one would ever use it unless forced into.

    Yet if you do it the way i suggested, any 8 passives which is like the current system, there isnt much of a leg to stand on about losing anything in the way of rep passive powers.

    -you still have 8 of your choice.
    -the new rep would have just been added and therefore you wont have it anyways, which means no loss
    -the only gripe people will have is the loss of future rep powers but the above would most likely placate that (however 4/4 will not, it will just TRIBBLE people off)
This discussion has been closed.