Archer for sparking and getting into a civil war between the xindi for a superweapon.
Who fired first? Archer? Oh wait... The Xindi killed millions when Archer didn't even know who they were yet. So... no. Trying to paint him as the bad guy in that scenario is ludicrous. The Xindi were planning to destroy Earth completely, and had been since before humans knew who they were! Truthfully... the Xindi were on the brink of civil war as it was. They didn't trust each other, and they had very different ideas as to what should be done.
He didn't even start the civil war. Initially the council members he convinced simply tried to lobby the aquatics to get a majority vote and stop (or at least stall) the plan. The reptilians and insectoids started the civil war by taking the weapon and trying to break the other races' codes to activate it.
Archer did a lot of dumb, irresponsible, and even childish things (threatening to "water the holy trees" comes to mind), but his involvement in the Xindi civil war wasn't one of them. He actually tried doing things by the Xindi's rules and working with their system, and it was two of the Xindi races that decided to abandon the system. It was almost like he was a good captain and it was other people's unreasonable and irrational behavior that was creating problems.
I thought I changed the channel there for a minute.
YES!!! and to those who would "pretend" to liberate the gingerbread village and then force one of its occupants to run around behind you forever. frankly disgusting how gingerbread mistreatment is just being lorded about in games like this. I mean think of the gingerbread children!!!
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
YES!!! and to those who would "pretend" to liberate the gingerbread village and then force one of its occupants to run around behind you forever. frankly disgusting how gingerbread mistreatment is just being lorded about in games like this. I mean think of the gingerbread children!!!
And now we have yet another race in thrall to Starfleet.
The following is from a document entitled: A Better Way?
....We have the war criminal Jean-Luc Picard to thank for most of this. Had Picard had enough sense to leave Q alone after the first time, none of this would have gone on in the first place. The Borg Collective was thankfully unaware of the races in the Alpha Quadrant. But after Picard baited Q enough for Q to inform the Borg about us, Starfleet couldn't wait to announce loudly to the Collective, "We're over here!" The real tragedy of Wolf 359 is the Collective sent only one Cube. They should have sent a fleet.
The war criminal Benjamin Sisko found time to impersonate a god during his haste to embroil the Alpha Quadrant in a conflict with the Dominion. The aftereffects of this war still resonate throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Of course this wasn't enough. The war criminal Kathryn Janeway assisted the Collective in defending themselves from the Undine. Aiding and abetting the enemy in wartime is a crime in any society. Net result? The Alpha Quadrant now has two bitter enemies who have put aside their own conflict long enough to defeat the Alpha Quadrant. While on her way home, Janeway managed to find the time to point the Hirogen at us as well.
All of the myriad and troublesome enemies we of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants face to day are a direct result of short sighted actions taken by Starfleet captains who acted first and then thought things through. Too little. Too late.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
This is why I am KDF. The Federation only follows the rules when it's convenient. The rules apply to others not to them.
Fortunately the KDF doesn't cloak itself in hypocrisy. If someone has something we want, we can always "negotiate" (Do what we say or we send in the Birds of Prey) or conquer those who have what we want outright, and sort out the details later. Why bother tap dancing around the inevitable?
Join the KDF. Rid yourself of Starfleet shenanigans.
We have cookies?
See, this is where STO is perfectly suited to the KDF.
This game is "Kill every enemy".
If there were more Federation style options, like using diplomacy for instance, I would wholeheartedly embrace them.
As it stands I have no choice in playstyle beyond how quickly I kill my enemies. I grant them the swiftest deaths I can.
It's the only merciful option available to me that doesn't endanger my crew or the Federation itself.
And now we have yet another race in thrall to Starfleet.
The following is from a document entitled: A Better Way?
Can't argue with the other parts, but it's very strongly hinted that the Borg were already probing the Federation's borders at the time of TNG: "Q Who?" (colonies disappearing without trace and so forth). Q actually did some good in the course of his customary trolling of Starfleet, alerting them to the problem.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Can't argue with the other parts, but it's very strongly hinted that the Borg were already probing the Federation's borders at the time of TNG: "Q Who?" (colonies disappearing without trace and so forth). Q actually did some good in the course of his customary trolling of Starfleet, alerting them to the problem.
And that's the thing.
In most (IE when he wasn't being punished) encounters with Q he was trying to help or teach the "Lowly humans".
In most (IE when he wasn't being punished) encounters with Q he was trying to help or teach the "Lowly humans".
Tell that to the inhabitants of DS9. He's an omnipotent troll with a commensurately inflated sense of self-importance.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Regarding infringements... The UFP, and their allies are using enemy weaponry and armour.
That is prohibited. Get caught doing that, and you might end up getting a 'sleeping pill'.
First off, there are many times throughout the series where the Federation uses enemy technology, armor, and weapons. Secondly, what Geneva Convention article specifically prohibits the use of enemy weapons, armor, and technology?
First off, there are many times throughout the series where the Federation uses enemy technology, armor, and weapons. Secondly, what Geneva Convention article specifically prohibits the use of enemy weapons, armor, and technology?
It does not. Nor do laws of war regarding plunder or looting - assets being used by armed forces (unlike private property and government property not being used directly by armed forces) are considered prize of war, and may be taken and used by the victorious military (or destroyed, removed from the theater of battle, etc as) as they see fit. It even influences weapon choice for some countries, using weapons compatible with common bullets likely to be captured.
One of the biggest reasons that historically enemy ships are rarely pressed into service (not never, Germany did have an entire division of them in WWII) is maintenance. England used a German submarine during WWII for a while, but it was not compatible with the same parts as allied submarines, so maintaining it without access to the parts factory was far more expensive than mass produced allied ships.
There are some limitations: if you use an enemy ship in combat, flying its native flag instead of your own is a false flag attack (flying that flag for spying purposes is not a false flag attack, only fighting under it). Same rule applies to using enemy uniforms. Starfleet clearly (through some means, possibly transponder codes or warp signatures) does not do this, as enemy ships flying under Starfleet authority do not fool ships from their fleet of origin.
Go to the Voth Ground Battlezone and capture the Voth information crates, you will learn a great deal of story information. I had no qualms about fighting the Voth after the story was unraveled through those snippets of information.
And the number was actually about 0.25 times over. At our peak we still had less than 12 gigatons of nuclear weapons, the majority of which was tied up in ridiculous low-yield strategic weapons weapons like the Davy Crockett, which would not be used in a full scale exchange, and if actually used would cause more friendly fire damage than anything. The actual amount of depopulation expected in a nuclear war is almost disappointing after reading the rhetoric against it.
And they were being used to deter all of the largest nations and most of the powerful small nations in the world - nations which cumulatively with their allies and holdings accounted for about two thirds of the planet's land area, with the other third by and large unlikely to be targeted (aside from a few scattered bases or ships belonging to the involved powers in those areas).
The Voth's plan is almost the exact opposite: They're basically threatening to take the toys and go home, and if anybody doesn't want to play by their rules then nobody gets to play again. Ever.
The real threat from massive global nuclear war was not the blasts themselves, and not even the fallout that would poison a lot of people who were near but not inside the blast areas. The real danger was that, one a certain threshold was reached, all of the dust kicked up would blot out the sun and cause total planet-wide crop failure for several years in a row, meaning that anybody not sitting on top of a ten-year food supply AND the weapons and ammunition and soldiers to protect it against anybody else who wanted it was going to starve.
Ever heard of 1816 being The Year Without A Summer? Mount Tambora erupted and caused crop failure throughout the Northern Hemisphere. Global nuclear war would bring several consecutive years of these conditions.
Sorry said it before and I'll say it again. Dealing with particles that in the wrong hand could destroy warp travel? Shooting first and not even bothering to ask questions. Pretty much an end to civilization as you know it.
I mean even the Borg don't mess with omega particles. That should tell you something.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
1. According to the lore we know, the Omega Particle cannot be created in a stable state. This is the knowledge base that the Alliance (Romulan/Federation/Klingon) knows about Omega at this time.
2. From all I have read, the Voth began hostilities, likely because of the way Voyager escaped them.
3. During hostilities, armed combatants are combatants, regardless of class or skill set. If you fire a weapon, you can be shot, even if your a kid. This is the reason that in the US Army our only full non-combat role, the Chaplin, does not carry a weapon.
So with those in mind, the only thing I find reprehensible is the attacking of un-armed support ships coming out to aid they're mother ships... but that is even forgivable given the nature of the aid. They completely restore the battleship and thus would be targeted. The attacks on escape pods is justified by the fact that they are loading Omega particles onto the shuttles in an attempt to escape with them. (Hence "Omega Shuttles")
Go to the Voth Ground Battlezone and capture the Voth information crates, you will learn a great deal of story information. I had no qualms about fighting the Voth after the story was unraveled through those snippets of information.
Yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, it's not exactly convenient to go lore-hunting when you've got a dozen of the aforementioned random one-shot species from VOY shooting at your TRIBBLE.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
First off, there are many times throughout the series where the Federation uses enemy technology, armor, and weapons.
Actually, they're using way too little technology they encounter. Usually there's some lame rationale ("The transporter technology is integrated into their system," or some other dipsh*t). In RL, though, they would not leave any transporter technology unturned, if it could tp you across entire galaxies, or some other magical stuff.
Secondly, what Geneva Convention article specifically prohibits the use of enemy weapons, armor, and technology?
None. And The Borg made an entire career out if doing just that.
Well the Borg originally were supposed to be even more tech stealing happy than before. In the first TNG episode they appear Q mentions that they have no interest in the Enterprise crew and just want the ship for its technology.
First off, there are many times throughout the series where the Federation uses enemy technology, armor, and weapons. Secondly, what Geneva Convention article specifically prohibits the use of enemy weapons, armor, and technology?
You are absolutely correct. I got a little bit ahead of myself.
As a later post clarified... ...I was thinking about wearing an enemy uniform, -false flag...
Wrong uniform is bad. Using enemy guns. Good.
But as later noted... If you choose to fire an enemy weapon, that sound it makes is usually significant different from the standard issue, so nervous people might shoot in your direction to be sure... :eek:
I've been trying to keep out of this, because of the obvious flaws in the OP's reasoning, but I have to ask:
What makes you think that the Geneva convention is even in effect, or has been since WW3?
We know that 800 Million people died, most goverments were destroyed (ST: First Contact), and that straight after the 3'd world war, a military figurehead was celebrated by a great deal of people for actively speaking in pro of mass genocide, elimininating all people with genetic defects and mutations (ENT: Terra Prime)... Had the Geneva convention been in place, he would have been arrested the second they could.
It stands to reason, based on the heavy use of WMD's and the nature of a world war, that all such treaties were eliminated.
Futher more: The Eugenics wars, which were not a part of our universe, had massive infringements on the conventions, such as crossfire over civilian populations. Archers grandfather and a enemy commander did this, and only ceased fire because they FELT like letting the civilians evacuate... Not because it was the law (at least thats the impression archer left when he talked to Trip about the Hatchery).
But let's pretend the above didn happen: If they shoot first, you are well in your place to fire back... And the Voth aren't exactly known for not resorting to violence when they don't get their way.
The Star Trek universe is NOT our universe... There are so many differences by now, that you can not, within reason, assume that our laws apply to the Trek universe... Especially not Earth only rules, since the federation are made up of 150 worlds minimum.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I've been trying to keep out of this, because of the obvious flaws in the OP's reasoning, but I have to ask:
What makes you think that the Geneva convention is even in effect, or has been since WW3?
We know that 800 Million people died, most goverments were destroyed (ST: First Contact), and that straight after the 3'd world war, a military figurehead was celebrated by a great deal of people for actively speaking in pro of mass genocide, elimininating all people with genetic defects and mutations (ENT: Terra Prime)... Had the Geneva convention been in place, he would have been arrested the second they could.
It stands to reason, based on the heavy use of WMD's and the nature of a world war, that all such treaties were eliminated.
Futher more: The Eugenics wars, which were not a part of our universe, had massive infringements on the conventions, such as crossfire over civilian populations. Archers grandfather and a enemy commander did this, and only ceased fire because they FELT like letting the civilians evacuate... Not because it was the law (at least thats the impression archer left when he talked to Trip about the Hatchery).
But let's pretend the above didn happen: If they shoot first, you are well in your place to fire back... And the Voth aren't exactly known for not resorting to violence when they don't get their way.
The Star Trek universe is NOT our universe... There are so many differences by now, that you can not, within reason, assume that our laws apply to the Trek universe... Especially not Earth only rules, since the federation are made up of 150 worlds minimum.
What you say is true.
When i wrote the OP, i was not including the complete Star Trek canon in my train of thoughts. I was philosophical about STO as we have it today, and how 'lost' it is from the utopian sci-fi Star Trek want(ed) to portray itself as. (Pre JJ-trek)
I'll brave myself to say, since TNG, Star Trek has indeed become much more dystopian.
I don't know if it is consciously or a bad choice of direction, leading it further away from the exploring of space and specie. The feds are definitly no boyscouts in space anymore.
What you say is true.
When i wrote the OP, i was not including the complete Star Trek canon in my train of thoughts. I was philosophical about STO as we have it today, and how 'lost' it is from the utopian sci-fi Star Trek want(ed) to portray itself as. (Pre JJ-trek)
I'll brave myself to say, since TNG, Star Trek has indeed become much more dystopian.
I don't know if it is consciously or a bad choice of direction, leading it further away from the exploring of space and specie. The feds are definitly no boyscouts in space anymore.
The shift was likely to do with Gene having very little to no say in post S2 TNG and any series that followed it.
Though in universe it makes sense that the Federation becomes more militaristic because of the big wake up call that was the borg. That is when they started designing ships like the defiant and sovereign as well as things like regenerative shields and quantum torpedos.
Good thing too in one way as at least they were more prepared for the Dominion than they would of been without the wolf 359 wake up call.
Starfleet was "militarized" long before the moonbat silliness of the first two seasons of TNG. Starfleet always had strong military elements and traditions, especially during Harve Bennett's run at the helm. And from what I've seen, the game doesn't take the military "feel" as far as Bennett did.
As for those that try to rationalize the bulls*** "we no ah-mee" claims with what is actually shown, paramilitary or police forces don't typically run around with enough firepower to boil planets.
Starfleet is the military AND exploratory arm of the United Federation of Planets. Much in the same way modern navies also engage in humanitarian missions, diplomacy, and research, in addition to defense of the homeland and securing overseas interests.
Oh, and by the way, did you know that the "we don't have a military because we've evolved beyond that" Federation actually has a wet navy? The Federation Naval Patrol was going to be Tom Paris's career choice before his Old Man (a Starfleet admiral) pressured him to join Starfleet. We saw how that worked out for Ol' Tom. LOL.
At first keep in mind that Star Trek is settled in a far away future which doesn't follow our present day ways any more. Starfleet is a kind of organization that surpasses militaries by a whole lot. You can say Starfleet incorporates military elements, that's true. It is the service tasked with defending the Federation. Yet, Starfleet is no military, the mindset is something entirely different.
"Ex astris scientia" which is the motto of Starfleet Academy shows it's spiritual heritage - "Ex luna scientia" which was NASAs credo for the Apollo mission. Upon the foundation of the UFP, the memberworlds militaries were absorbed within Starfleet so that they wouldn't have to waste resources on militaries. Instead Starfleet used all those resources to build starships to explore strange new worlds and expand the territory of the UFP. Since their vessels are much more versatile than military ships, their stations form the borders of the UFP and their Explorers are heavily armed and ready to take on the unknown it was only logical that they incorporate and evolve the aspect of classic militaries. Combat is only a very small part of Starfleet's duties, though they are perfectly capable of defending the Federation.
I can't understand the reluctance so many people have regarding this mindset. It's as if their testicles would fall of the moment they realize that militarism doesn't equal strength or cunning. The shows grew darker, sure, it was the flavour of the decade. I'm not arguing against that, I don't even argue against Starfleet and the Federation being a pretty dangerous force to be reckoned with, they played dirty on enough occasions. I was actually only complaining about the ridiculous comically over the top animations and mechanics STO utilizes, though it is perfectly normal that a game that's purely centered about combat and warfare will bias the IP's original intend.
Regarding the UFP's Naval Patrol, we really don't know anything about it, it was only mentioned in one sentence in VOY, though I'd believe it is more centered around exploration and relief rather than being an actual wet navy because - that would make absolutely no sense. In Trek lore, the battle takes place in space. Once a planet is unable to defend itself against orbital fire it is done for, no matter how many ships or tanks you have, type 8 shuttles could end those "forces", let alone capital ships in orbit. Planetary militias on memberworlds most likely serve as police forces and I think Earth doesn't have another service besides Starfleet for these tasks as shown in DS9).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And I answer that with the question of, what is the definition of a military?
Answer: The officially and internationally recognized, government-funded armed group that a nation uses to fight wars and defend its citizens against armed aggression. Starfleet fits that definition, therefore it is a military. QED.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
At first keep in mind that Star Trek is settled in a far away future which doesn't follow our present day ways any more. Starfleet is a kind of organization that surpasses militaries by a whole lot. You can say Starfleet incorporates military elements, that's true. It is the service tasked with defending the Federation. Yet, Starfleet is no military, the mindset is something entirely different.
"Ex astris scientia" which is the motto of Starfleet Academy shows it's spiritual heritage - "Ex luna scientia" which was NASAs credo for the Apollo mission. Upon the foundation of the UFP, the memberworlds militaries were absorbed within Starfleet so that they wouldn't have to waste resources on militaries. Instead Starfleet used all those resources to build starships to explore strange new worlds and expand the territory of the UFP. Since their vessels are much more versatile than military ships, their stations form the borders of the UFP and their Explorers are heavily armed and ready to take on the unknown it was only logical that they incorporate and evolve the aspect of classic militaries. Combat is only a very small part of Starfleet's duties, though they are perfectly capable of defending the Federation.
I can't understand the reluctance so many people have regarding this mindset. It's as if their testicles would fall of the moment they realize that militarism doesn't equal strength or cunning. The shows grew darker, sure, it was the flavour of the decade. I'm not arguing against that, I don't even argue against Starfleet and the Federation being a pretty dangerous force to be reckoned with, they played dirty on enough occasions. I was actually only complaining about the ridiculous comically over the top animations and mechanics STO utilizes, though it is perfectly normal that a game that's purely centered about combat and warfare will bias the IP's original intend.
Regarding the UFP's Naval Patrol, we really don't know anything about it, it was only mentioned in one sentence in VOY, though I'd believe it is more centered around exploration and relief rather than being an actual wet navy because - that would make absolutely no sense. In Trek lore, the battle takes place in space. Once a planet is unable to defend itself against orbital fire it is done for, no matter how many ships or tanks you have, type 8 shuttles could end those "forces", let alone capital ships in orbit. Planetary militias on memberworlds most likely serve as police forces and I think Earth doesn't have another service besides Starfleet for these tasks as shown in DS9).
That does beg the question why nobody ever thought of planetary shields or giant defence weaponry to take an attacking fleet down.
Like think of Hoth, how the Empire was forced to ground assault by shields and Ion cannon.
In theory, a big enough tank could be fitted with like a disruptor cannon , or a photon torpedo launcher, similarly like Cold War era ICBM carrying tanks.
Maybe they cant generate enough power for such stuff?
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
And I answer that with the question of, what is the definition of a military?
Answer: The officially and internationally recognized, government-funded armed group that a nation uses to fight wars and defend its citizens against armed aggression. Starfleet fits that definition, therefore it is a military. QED.
Actually it fits the definition of a paramilitary organization better.
paramilitary organization - a group of civilians organized in a military fashion (especially to operate in place of or to assist regular army troops)
Starfleets primary goal is to expand by the virtue of communication, not gunboat policy.
-Thats what the klinks are all about. Expansion by force.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
Archer did a lot of dumb, irresponsible, and even childish things (threatening to "water the holy trees" comes to mind), but his involvement in the Xindi civil war wasn't one of them. He actually tried doing things by the Xindi's rules and working with their system, and it was two of the Xindi races that decided to abandon the system. It was almost like he was a good captain and it was other people's unreasonable and irrational behavior that was creating problems.
I thought I changed the channel there for a minute.
Yes...the feds in the game are not as posh and hippytastic as they were in TNG, but more like the DS9 version.
Klingons (near Uranus) and romulans (Stabby space elves) of course know better than to try that in the first place.
So if the Feds are trying to man up, well, its about time!
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
The following is from a document entitled: A Better Way?
See, this is where STO is perfectly suited to the KDF.
This game is "Kill every enemy".
If there were more Federation style options, like using diplomacy for instance, I would wholeheartedly embrace them.
As it stands I have no choice in playstyle beyond how quickly I kill my enemies. I grant them the swiftest deaths I can.
It's the only merciful option available to me that doesn't endanger my crew or the Federation itself.
Can't argue with the other parts, but it's very strongly hinted that the Borg were already probing the Federation's borders at the time of TNG: "Q Who?" (colonies disappearing without trace and so forth). Q actually did some good in the course of his customary trolling of Starfleet, alerting them to the problem.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And that's the thing.
In most (IE when he wasn't being punished) encounters with Q he was trying to help or teach the "Lowly humans".
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
Tell that to the inhabitants of DS9. He's an omnipotent troll with a commensurately inflated sense of self-importance.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
First off, there are many times throughout the series where the Federation uses enemy technology, armor, and weapons. Secondly, what Geneva Convention article specifically prohibits the use of enemy weapons, armor, and technology?
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
It does not. Nor do laws of war regarding plunder or looting - assets being used by armed forces (unlike private property and government property not being used directly by armed forces) are considered prize of war, and may be taken and used by the victorious military (or destroyed, removed from the theater of battle, etc as) as they see fit. It even influences weapon choice for some countries, using weapons compatible with common bullets likely to be captured.
One of the biggest reasons that historically enemy ships are rarely pressed into service (not never, Germany did have an entire division of them in WWII) is maintenance. England used a German submarine during WWII for a while, but it was not compatible with the same parts as allied submarines, so maintaining it without access to the parts factory was far more expensive than mass produced allied ships.
There are some limitations: if you use an enemy ship in combat, flying its native flag instead of your own is a false flag attack (flying that flag for spying purposes is not a false flag attack, only fighting under it). Same rule applies to using enemy uniforms. Starfleet clearly (through some means, possibly transponder codes or warp signatures) does not do this, as enemy ships flying under Starfleet authority do not fool ships from their fleet of origin.
Go to the Voth Ground Battlezone and capture the Voth information crates, you will learn a great deal of story information. I had no qualms about fighting the Voth after the story was unraveled through those snippets of information.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
The real threat from massive global nuclear war was not the blasts themselves, and not even the fallout that would poison a lot of people who were near but not inside the blast areas. The real danger was that, one a certain threshold was reached, all of the dust kicked up would blot out the sun and cause total planet-wide crop failure for several years in a row, meaning that anybody not sitting on top of a ten-year food supply AND the weapons and ammunition and soldiers to protect it against anybody else who wanted it was going to starve.
Ever heard of 1816 being The Year Without A Summer? Mount Tambora erupted and caused crop failure throughout the Northern Hemisphere. Global nuclear war would bring several consecutive years of these conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_year_without_a_summer
I mean even the Borg don't mess with omega particles. That should tell you something.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Three things to understand...
1. According to the lore we know, the Omega Particle cannot be created in a stable state. This is the knowledge base that the Alliance (Romulan/Federation/Klingon) knows about Omega at this time.
2. From all I have read, the Voth began hostilities, likely because of the way Voyager escaped them.
3. During hostilities, armed combatants are combatants, regardless of class or skill set. If you fire a weapon, you can be shot, even if your a kid. This is the reason that in the US Army our only full non-combat role, the Chaplin, does not carry a weapon.
So with those in mind, the only thing I find reprehensible is the attacking of un-armed support ships coming out to aid they're mother ships... but that is even forgivable given the nature of the aid. They completely restore the battleship and thus would be targeted. The attacks on escape pods is justified by the fact that they are loading Omega particles onto the shuttles in an attempt to escape with them. (Hence "Omega Shuttles")
And my 7.5 ft tall Gorns hold some grudge against those dinos.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, it's not exactly convenient to go lore-hunting when you've got a dozen of the aforementioned random one-shot species from VOY shooting at your TRIBBLE.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Actually, they're using way too little technology they encounter. Usually there's some lame rationale ("The transporter technology is integrated into their system," or some other dipsh*t). In RL, though, they would not leave any transporter technology unturned, if it could tp you across entire galaxies, or some other magical stuff.
None. And The Borg made an entire career out if doing just that.
You are absolutely correct. I got a little bit ahead of myself.
As a later post clarified... ...I was thinking about wearing an enemy uniform, -false flag...
Wrong uniform is bad. Using enemy guns. Good.
But as later noted... If you choose to fire an enemy weapon, that sound it makes is usually significant different from the standard issue, so nervous people might shoot in your direction to be sure... :eek:
What makes you think that the Geneva convention is even in effect, or has been since WW3?
We know that 800 Million people died, most goverments were destroyed (ST: First Contact), and that straight after the 3'd world war, a military figurehead was celebrated by a great deal of people for actively speaking in pro of mass genocide, elimininating all people with genetic defects and mutations (ENT: Terra Prime)... Had the Geneva convention been in place, he would have been arrested the second they could.
It stands to reason, based on the heavy use of WMD's and the nature of a world war, that all such treaties were eliminated.
Futher more: The Eugenics wars, which were not a part of our universe, had massive infringements on the conventions, such as crossfire over civilian populations. Archers grandfather and a enemy commander did this, and only ceased fire because they FELT like letting the civilians evacuate... Not because it was the law (at least thats the impression archer left when he talked to Trip about the Hatchery).
But let's pretend the above didn happen: If they shoot first, you are well in your place to fire back... And the Voth aren't exactly known for not resorting to violence when they don't get their way.
The Star Trek universe is NOT our universe... There are so many differences by now, that you can not, within reason, assume that our laws apply to the Trek universe... Especially not Earth only rules, since the federation are made up of 150 worlds minimum.
What you say is true.
When i wrote the OP, i was not including the complete Star Trek canon in my train of thoughts. I was philosophical about STO as we have it today, and how 'lost' it is from the utopian sci-fi Star Trek want(ed) to portray itself as. (Pre JJ-trek)
I'll brave myself to say, since TNG, Star Trek has indeed become much more dystopian.
I don't know if it is consciously or a bad choice of direction, leading it further away from the exploring of space and specie. The feds are definitly no boyscouts in space anymore.
The shift was likely to do with Gene having very little to no say in post S2 TNG and any series that followed it.
Though in universe it makes sense that the Federation becomes more militaristic because of the big wake up call that was the borg. That is when they started designing ships like the defiant and sovereign as well as things like regenerative shields and quantum torpedos.
Good thing too in one way as at least they were more prepared for the Dominion than they would of been without the wolf 359 wake up call.
At first keep in mind that Star Trek is settled in a far away future which doesn't follow our present day ways any more. Starfleet is a kind of organization that surpasses militaries by a whole lot. You can say Starfleet incorporates military elements, that's true. It is the service tasked with defending the Federation. Yet, Starfleet is no military, the mindset is something entirely different.
"Ex astris scientia" which is the motto of Starfleet Academy shows it's spiritual heritage - "Ex luna scientia" which was NASAs credo for the Apollo mission. Upon the foundation of the UFP, the memberworlds militaries were absorbed within Starfleet so that they wouldn't have to waste resources on militaries. Instead Starfleet used all those resources to build starships to explore strange new worlds and expand the territory of the UFP. Since their vessels are much more versatile than military ships, their stations form the borders of the UFP and their Explorers are heavily armed and ready to take on the unknown it was only logical that they incorporate and evolve the aspect of classic militaries. Combat is only a very small part of Starfleet's duties, though they are perfectly capable of defending the Federation.
I can't understand the reluctance so many people have regarding this mindset. It's as if their testicles would fall of the moment they realize that militarism doesn't equal strength or cunning. The shows grew darker, sure, it was the flavour of the decade. I'm not arguing against that, I don't even argue against Starfleet and the Federation being a pretty dangerous force to be reckoned with, they played dirty on enough occasions. I was actually only complaining about the ridiculous comically over the top animations and mechanics STO utilizes, though it is perfectly normal that a game that's purely centered about combat and warfare will bias the IP's original intend.
Regarding the UFP's Naval Patrol, we really don't know anything about it, it was only mentioned in one sentence in VOY, though I'd believe it is more centered around exploration and relief rather than being an actual wet navy because - that would make absolutely no sense. In Trek lore, the battle takes place in space. Once a planet is unable to defend itself against orbital fire it is done for, no matter how many ships or tanks you have, type 8 shuttles could end those "forces", let alone capital ships in orbit. Planetary militias on memberworlds most likely serve as police forces and I think Earth doesn't have another service besides Starfleet for these tasks as shown in DS9).
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Answer: The officially and internationally recognized, government-funded armed group that a nation uses to fight wars and defend its citizens against armed aggression. Starfleet fits that definition, therefore it is a military. QED.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That does beg the question why nobody ever thought of planetary shields or giant defence weaponry to take an attacking fleet down.
Like think of Hoth, how the Empire was forced to ground assault by shields and Ion cannon.
In theory, a big enough tank could be fitted with like a disruptor cannon , or a photon torpedo launcher, similarly like Cold War era ICBM carrying tanks.
Maybe they cant generate enough power for such stuff?
Actually it fits the definition of a paramilitary organization better.
paramilitary organization - a group of civilians organized in a military fashion (especially to operate in place of or to assist regular army troops)
Starfleets primary goal is to expand by the virtue of communication, not gunboat policy.
-Thats what the klinks are all about. Expansion by force.