Actually it fits the definition of a paramilitary organization better.
paramilitary organization - a group of civilians organized in a military fashion (especially to operate in place of or to assist regular army troops)
Starfleets primary goal is to expand by the virtue of communication, not gunboat policy.
-Thats what the klinks are all about. Expansion by force.
Then you could say the same about the US Military. We don't always attack first[there are instances across the years yes i know] but on the balance US Military doesn't normally attack first.
Sorry Starfleet is a military organization. Granted most times they do exploration, humanitarian services and the like, but so does the US Military.
We call it HAO. Humanitarian Assistance Operations. Sorry Starfleet is a military.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
That does beg the question why nobody ever thought of planetary shields or giant defence weaponry to take an attacking fleet down.
Like think of Hoth, how the Empire was forced to ground assault by shields and Ion cannon.
In theory, a big enough tank could be fitted with like a disruptor cannon , or a photon torpedo launcher, similarly like Cold War era ICBM carrying tanks.
Maybe they cant generate enough power for such stuff?
I'm pretty sure there are planetary shields, bunker installations and weapon platforms, at least DS9 "Homefront" mentions that Earth's planetary defenses were offline due to changeling sabotage. But other than that, most defenses we ever see are in action before enemy vessels approach orbit (Defense pods, stations, minefields, drones etc.)
Actually it fits the definition of a paramilitary organization better.
paramilitary organization - a group of civilians organized in a military fashion (especially to operate in place of or to assist regular army troops)
Starfleets primary goal is to expand by the virtue of communication, not gunboat policy.
-Thats what the klinks are all about. Expansion by force.
This, well spoken
Regarding US Army and humanitarian aid: I'm sure the Red Cross pales in comparision. No, seriously, the US Military is neither the model for Starfleet nor do the have much in common, sorry.
The shift was likely to do with Gene having very little to no say in post S2 TNG and any series that followed it.
Though in universe it makes sense that the Federation becomes more militaristic because of the big wake up call that was the borg. That is when they started designing ships like the defiant and sovereign as well as things like regenerative shields and quantum torpedos.
Good thing too in one way as at least they were more prepared for the Dominion than they would of been without the wolf 359 wake up call.
I have problems with the "Wolf 359 was a wake-up call for the Federation", especially when justifying a militarisation or more tactical focus of Starfleet.
You see, the original Borg were an argument to picture the one-way-street which is continous arms build-up. The Borg were no adversary you'd fight and "Resistance is futile" wasn't only an empty phrase, it was a fact. The Borg as portrayed in TNG were a force of nature, so to speak. The entire Klingon Armada wouldn't have stopped that cube, Wolf 359 wouldn't have looked any different. When facing the Borg, it doesn't matter how many ships or guns you have, you cannot beat them with force, by design. The Defiant as a "design to combat the Borg" makes no sense at all - only in the context that with First Contact, the Borg were completely re-written to become space vampires with a lair and a queen. Originally, you just couldn't fight them for the simple reason that they don't have any home or installations you could bring the war to. But their entire premise was abandoned and nothing they did in TNG makes sense with the "new" Borg which became a ridiculous nuisance.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm pretty sure there are planetary shields, bunker installations and weapon platforms, at least DS9 "Homefront" mentions that Earth's planetary defenses were offline due to changeling sabotage. But other than that, most defenses we ever see are in action before enemy vessels approach orbit (Defense pods, stations, minefields, drones etc.)
This, well spoken
Regarding US Army and humanitarian aid: I'm sure the Red Cross pales in comparision. No, seriously, the US Military is neither the model for Starfleet nor do the have much in common, sorry.
I have problems with the "Wolf 359 was a wake-up call for the Federation", especially when justifying a militarisation or more tactical focus of Starfleet.
You see, the original Borg were an argument to picture the one-way-street which is continous arms build-up. The Borg were no adversary you'd fight and "Resistance is futile" wasn't only an empty phrase, it was a fact. The Borg as portrayed in TNG were a force of nature, so to speak. The entire Klingon Armada wouldn't have stopped that cube, Wolf 359 wouldn't have looked any different. When facing the Borg, it doesn't matter how many ships or guns you have, you cannot beat them with force, by design. The Defiant as a "design to combat the Borg" makes no sense at all - only in the context that with First Contact, the Borg were completely re-written to become space vampires with a lair and a queen. Originally, you just couldn't fight them for the simple reason that they don't have any home or installations you could bring the war to. But their entire premise was abandoned and nothing they did in TNG makes sense with the "new" Borg which became a ridiculous nuisance.
I can understand some of the borg redesign, making them super tough but not invincible and able to adapt but not to the point of being indestructible makes more sense to me. The whole queen thing was stupid though and forced on First Contact by the Paramount brass apparently.
As for Starfleet it would just be good sense to rebuild their fleet with newer better armed and defended ships after such a catastrophic loss at Wolf 359. This is why there are anti borg ships like the Defiant and Sovereign though both come in useful for other things.
I can understand some of the borg redesign, making them super tough but not invincible and able to adapt but not to the point of being indestructible makes more sense to me. The whole queen thing was stupid though and forced on First Contact by the Paramount brass apparently.
As for Starfleet it would just be good sense to rebuild their fleet with newer better armed and defended ships after such a catastrophic loss at Wolf 359. This is why there are anti borg ships like the Defiant and Sovereign though both come in useful for other things.
Oh, don't get me started on "the queen" That would be a rant for hours XD
Yeah, it was pretty much a cheap move to "casualize" the Borg to be a regular movie adversary. As far as I'm concerned, the original Borg weren't designed to be tv-show villians, they were a metaphor. In-universe of course, after such losses Starfleet has to build new ships and those are more advanced and all, but if you think about it, what good is a Defiant against the Borg? It never saw action against the Borg (except for First Contact and, well, even then it doesn't do all that well) and if it would face TNG's Borg nothing would have changed. No armour or gun helps you to "win" against the Borg and if you manage it, all you do is buying some time. Be glad "we" had Q
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Protecting civilians from foreign militaries is Starfleet's job. Thus Starfleet IS the Federation's de facto military.
RL militaries do a lot of charting and exploring. Accurate maps are crucial in battle. Just ask Napolean if you don't believe me.
Starfleet serves as the UFPs military, that's right. But it is not a military, it's a petite difference
And I believe you. Yet again, those are two entirely different animals In your example, a military explores and maps to be prepared for war. Starfleet explores and researches for the sake of exploration and science and since their ships are already well armed to the point most other people consider their sheer presence an act of provocation they did absorb the defensive function former militaries had. Still they are no military, that's all I' trying to say ^^
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And now we have yet another race in thrall to Starfleet.
The following is from a document entitled: A Better Way?
My god. . .that explains everything.
It forgets to mention the token Native American, Chipotle, pissing off the Voth and ensuring the Voth 'government' would have nothing but bad things to think about the human race.
And all throughout Voyager's entire trip, Janeway's telling everyone where to find the Federation, and then (as the only representative of said Federation) pissing off half the people she comes across.
Starfleet serves as the UFPs military, that's right. But it is not a military, it's a petite difference
And I believe you. Yet again, those are two entirely different animals In your example, a military explores and maps to be prepared for war. Starfleet explores and researches for the sake of exploration and science and since their ships are already well armed to the point most other people consider their sheer presence an act of provocation they did absorb the defensive function former militaries had. Still they are no military, that's all I' trying to say ^^
Fun fact: Age of Sail wet navies did a lot of exploration. HMS Beagle that Darwin rode in on was a Royal Navy warship, and in 1838 the US Navy sent a small squadron on an exploration mission. Starfleet borrows heavily from Age of Sail navies in many respects.
I stand by my prior assertion that Starfleet is a military. The trick is, Starfleet isn't only a military.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Starfleet serves as the UFPs military, that's right. But it is not a military, it's a petite difference
And I believe you. Yet again, those are two entirely different animals In your example, a military explores and maps to be prepared for war. Starfleet explores and researches for the sake of exploration and science and since their ships are already well armed to the point most other people consider their sheer presence an act of provocation they did absorb the defensive function former militaries had. Still they are no military, that's all I' trying to say ^^
And this odd duality has always been a bit of a design flaw, IMHO: we want the Federation to be civilized explorers; yet, at the same time, their military flagship, commanded by Picard et al., consists of a huge disc filled with families and children... Riiight. At the onset of ST;TNG they briefly tried to deal with this inconsistency by adding Chevron separation and a battle bridge and all, but soon gave up on that.
Regarding the "A Better Way" thing, Lord knows I've beat on Starfleet for their boneheaded provocation of the Dominion before. The lead-up to the war basically went like this:
Starfleet: Cool! Wormhole! Dominion: F*** off. Starfleet: Eh, I'm sure they won't mind us wandering around. Dominion: *blows stuff up* I said, f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe we can talk to them? Dominion: *blows more stuff up* F*** the f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe they're bluffing. Dominion: Okay, you TRIBBLE$holes asked for it. *launches attack*
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Starfleet serves as the UFPs military, that's right. But it is not a military, it's a petite difference
And I believe you. Yet again, those are two entirely different animals In your example, a military explores and maps to be prepared for war. Starfleet explores and researches for the sake of exploration and science and since their ships are already well armed to the point most other people consider their sheer presence an act of provocation they did absorb the defensive function former militaries had. Still they are no military, that's all I' trying to say ^^
Starfleet does pretty much everything. But for most parts, it is a military force, regardless of the Posh Federation that exists from TNG onwards likes to believe.
What is at the forefront of every potential problem for the Federation?
When someone wants to poke for trouble with the Federation, what organization is called to deal with it? Or who's ships are called to bring a Federation diplomat to the crisis?
When conflicts, large or small have broken out, what Federation organization is called to serve first and foremost?
Who fought in all the wars against the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, the Dominion?
Officers like Picard like to say it's all about Exploration. To a great degree, they are right. In peacetime. But when war breaks out, Starfleet is the sword and shield of the Federation. It is Starfleet's vessels and personnel that bear the vast majority of losses that the Federation incurs during war; It is their people that are sent to fight and die in some remote places of space.
Nobody else in the Federation deals with such a thing as an expected duty and risk. Nobody else in the Federation has such a key duty in fighting the Federation's wars.
The Federation may not openly say it because they try to be friendly about things, but for most parts, the strength of Starfleet deters conflict. The threat of force in making others think twice about doing harm to the Federation is what Starfleet does.
That is why, first and foremost, Starfleet is a military organization.
Starfleet was "militarized" long before the moonbat silliness of the first two seasons of TNG. Starfleet always had strong military elements and traditions, especially during Harve Bennett's run at the helm. And from what I've seen, the game doesn't take the military "feel" as far as Bennett did.
As for those that try to rationalize the bulls*** "we no ah-mee" claims with what is actually shown, paramilitary or police forces don't typically run around with enough firepower to boil planets.
Starfleet is the military AND exploratory arm of the United Federation of Planets. Much in the same way modern navies also engage in humanitarian missions, diplomacy, and research, in addition to defense of the homeland and securing overseas interests.
Oh, and by the way, did you know that the "we don't have a military because we've evolved beyond that" Federation actually has a wet navy? The Federation Naval Patrol was going to be Tom Paris's career choice before his Old Man (a Starfleet admiral) pressured him to join Starfleet. We saw how that worked out for Ol' Tom. LOL.
Yep, pretty much.
Here's a newsflash: Humanity will never "outgrow" governments or religion. Man is a social animal, and social groups require structure. Spirituality and leadership are critical cornerstones of any kind of viable social structure. This has been proven by the fact that the same basic building blocks have existed, and proven to work, since prehistory. Anything else is just a pipe dream. If such idealism had any basis in reality, such institutions would have died out long ago.
Plus honestly I don't see how getting rid of religion and governments will fix anything seeing as it seems like every time someone is being an a@#hole on the basis of those things its because they really are an a@#hole an its just an excuse they use to justify it.
In fact we could probably get rid of every difference between people and some people will still find something they think justifies being an a@#hole even if its some nonsense they pulled out of their a@#.
Regardless of how one views the Federation and the numerous mistakes members of Starfleet have made over the years, a few things are true.
- The Federation does have the right to defend itself from attack. Regardless of the causes behind such an attack.
-The Federation's member states have chosen the Federation (and Starfleet) through self determination. Therefore the Federation (and Starfleet) are the preferred method of defending said member states of the Federation.
- Regardless of precedent or structure, part of Starfleet's mandate is to defend the member states and interests of said member states of the Federation.
- Starfleet answers to the member states of the Federation primarily through the Federation Council. Which is the chief government body responsible for setting Starfleet policy and guidance. It is reasonable to assume the Council can and does change these based upon the current needs of the Federation as a whole.
In STO, it is obvious the needs of the Federation and its interests have shifted towards a requirement for Starfleet to behave in a more military manner. While this may be viewed with dismay and a diminished respect for Starfleet as well by some people, it does not make this shift in stature and policy less true or less needed. As the needs of the member states of the Federation change, so will the policies and guidance provided by the Federation Council to Starfleet.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Regarding the "A Better Way" thing, Lord knows I've beat on Starfleet for their boneheaded provocation of the Dominion before. The lead-up to the war basically went like this:
Starfleet: Cool! Wormhole! Dominion: F*** off. Starfleet: Eh, I'm sure they won't mind us wandering around. Dominion: *blows stuff up* I said, f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe we can talk to them? Dominion: *blows more stuff up* F*** the f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe they're bluffing. Dominion: Okay, you TRIBBLE$holes asked for it. *launches attack*
Well look who's model they follow. I mean John Archer for godsakes. How many times did he say "Hi we're from earth nice to meet you!" And summarily get shot at?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
It is quite awful actually.
Here we are the mighty knights in silver spaceships roaming the universe, exploring.
Lo and behold! A sphere! Let's explore! Oh, wait. There are dinosaurs here with frikkin lazors on their heads. Let us shoot them. They want Omega molecules. No need to ask them why, who their mighty enemy might be. Let us shoot down their non-attacking supportships. Let's suit up in their armours, so they can't pick us out that easily...
Scientists? Bah. Shoot them. Medics? Bah. Shoot them. Shoot them ginormous cityships out of the sky. Let us not speak of all the dinosaurial females and children. Oh, wait. Good idea. Let us use their children as pets!
:eek:
* The whole reason they are there is to stop the Omega Particles from being used for horrible things, which is usually what they end up being used for, even if by accident. As for the specific Voth situation, you may find the T5 Dyson Rep cut scene enlightening. Omega itself is rightly feared by everyone who doesn't want starship-based society to collapse overnight because somebody decided to set off a bomb full of Omega. This takes priority over exploring any sphere.
* The entire attitude of the Voth is essentially such that it can be assumed that they started shooting first. We do not know how the actual combat began, as a matter of fact, but I could very, very easily see it. Plus given their attitude no sane society could afford to take the risk of letting them get a lot of the stuff.
* IRL, medics aren't fired upon because once someone's got enough holes in them to warrant a medic, they're out of the fight. In the game, a medic returns a combatant to the battlefield in seconds, and is usually a combatant themselves. Targeting them is simple common sense. Unless the Federation wants to lose and waste the lives of its soldiers doing just that.
* The repair ships are of similar disposition, except they manage to get much more powerful systems up and running, forming what is arguably a much worse threat. It's not like these things are heavily armored tugs, nor do they simply stabilize the warp core. They get the ships back into combat status in seconds.
* It's pretty obvious that the "children" you refer to are more along the lines of genetically engineered beasts of burden. I seriously doubt anyone raided any Voth kindergardens. Furthermore, they are using the city-ships as command ships and heavy dreadnoughts complete with support and combat groups and using them in mass attacks. We do not know if they have children aboard, but if they do, deliberately and knowingly taking them into major combat operations is on the Voth, not on the alliance.
* In the time that you took to write this, a Voth, given the chance, would likely have shot you and lectured you about how sacred Doctrine was and how savage and insignificant mammals are as you slowly bled to death. Even before the Omega situation, they pretty much flat-out stated that non-Voth had no rights, period. These are not foes that are willing to come to the negotiation table. These are dogmatic racial supremacists that kill some of their best and brightest for even considering deviating from what's been accepted. Their society is so crippled by this they have barely advanced in millions of years - and yes, developing the tech they have over 'millions of years' is such a glacial pace it is barely advancing, considering the Federation has only a few hundred, or at most, thousand, years of FTL travel on most of its member worlds. I can't imagine they're more than 500 years beyond any Alpha or Beta Quadrant race, and quite probably 100-200.
The current strategy used by the Federation is a mixture of game mechanics, the desperate situation the realities of the Omega molecule places before them, and the common sense the Federation has had to sprout since the Dominion war upon realizing that not everyone in the galaxy was willingly to accept rigid pacifist ideals bestowed upon them by the benevolent and enlightened-beyond-all-others humans. Please give a moment to think about the context, and the fact that in-universe not everyone is willing and able to let themselves or their society collapse to prove some obscure philosophical point, even if some of the script writers on the show intended to portray Starfleet as doing little more than that.
And this odd duality has always been a bit of a design flaw, IMHO: we want the Federation to be civilized explorers; yet, at the same time, their military flagship, commanded by Picard et al., consists of a huge disc filled with families and children... Riiight. At the onset of ST;TNG they briefly tried to deal with this inconsistency by adding Chevron separation and a battle bridge and all, but soon gave up on that.
Not at all. At least not entirely.
At first you have to understand why there were families on board, that's a point most people misinterpret, stating the ship was a cruise liner or something like that. The intention was that the Explorers of the Galaxy Class were able to operate without any kind of external support for a very long period of time. People serving on those ships would dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to that task, they would basically live there. That's why they were allowed to take their families along. The saucer is not filled with families to it's capacity, there are only so much families for every officer they accompanied. The ship had a school and in that school there were what, six children?
Never the less, no one would take their family along if the ship wasn't fit with defensive capabilities that they'd deem fit to face the unknown in deep space. Exploration and research is the main task and the objective of the journey, the ship is well fitted for everything it faces and it was just logical that those ships, always on the edge of the Federation, also take care of the defense of said federation.
I will however point out that the more the Enterprise took over border patrol duties and muscle flexing towards the Romulans it would have been sensible to drop off families somewhere. I won't defend everything they did Yet, the concept of Starfleet and the difference towards militaries had been established pretty solidly on numerous occasions.
Starfleet does pretty much everything. But for most parts, it is a military force, regardless of the Posh Federation that exists from TNG onwards likes to believe.
What is at the forefront of every potential problem for the Federation?
When someone wants to poke for trouble with the Federation, what organization is called to deal with it? Or who's ships are called to bring a Federation diplomat to the crisis?
When conflicts, large or small have broken out, what Federation organization is called to serve first and foremost?
Who fought in all the wars against the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, the Dominion?
Officers like Picard like to say it's all about Exploration. To a great degree, they are right. In peacetime. But when war breaks out, Starfleet is the sword and shield of the Federation. It is Starfleet's vessels and personnel that bear the vast majority of losses that the Federation incurs during war; It is their people that are sent to fight and die in some remote places of space.
Nobody else in the Federation deals with such a thing as an expected duty and risk. Nobody else in the Federation has such a key duty in fighting the Federation's wars.
The Federation may not openly say it because they try to be friendly about things, but for most parts, the strength of Starfleet deters conflict. The threat of force in making others think twice about doing harm to the Federation is what Starfleet does.
That is why, first and foremost, Starfleet is a military organization.
You are right in every point, I'm not trying to say Starfleet does not fight. In fact, I have stated several times that they DID - it is just not their primary function. Though seeing that some people want to call the US military a humanitarian aid organization I see this is problematic
Our present day world and society vlues the one with the biggest stick most. Star Trek had hopes that one day we'll evolve past that and Starfleet was a model for such a broad service organization that'll surpass what we have right now. But many people have a problem with that kind of thing, thus the IP itself had been massively modified to resemble more common Sci-Fi traits and STO basically just let's us have Space Marines and shooty stuff and smacks a Trek chevron on top
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Regarding the "A Better Way" thing, Lord knows I've beat on Starfleet for their boneheaded provocation of the Dominion before. The lead-up to the war basically went like this:
Starfleet: Cool! Wormhole! Dominion: F*** off. Starfleet: Eh, I'm sure they won't mind us wandering around. Dominion: *blows stuff up* I said, f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe we can talk to them? Dominion: *blows more stuff up* F*** the f*** off. Starfleet: Maybe they're bluffing. Dominion: Okay, you TRIBBLE$holes asked for it. *launches attack*
Yeah, the Federation doesn't seem to know how to step cautiously. The mentality seems to be 'hey, let's just poke our noses around here a bit, if they catch us we'll just say we're sorry and move on', when the 'other' in question has made it clear they don't want others poking around.
This casual defiance of territorial sovereignty can also be observed via Janeway and her regular method of 'what I want to reach (Earth) is on the other side, so they can suck eggs. Also, where's my coffee?!'.
* The whole reason they are there is to stop the Omega Particles from being used for horrible things, which is usually what they end up being used for, even if by accident. As for the specific Voth situation, you may find the T5 Dyson Rep cut scene enlightening. Omega itself is rightly feared by everyone who doesn't want starship-based society to collapse overnight because somebody decided to set off a bomb full of Omega. This takes priority over exploring any sphere.
* The entire attitude of the Voth is essentially such that it can be assumed that they started shooting first. We do not know how the actual combat began, as a matter of fact, but I could very, very easily see it. Plus given their attitude no sane society could afford to take the risk of letting them get a lot of the stuff.
* IRL, medics aren't fired upon because once someone's got enough holes in them to warrant a medic, they're out of the fight. In the game, a medic returns a combatant to the battlefield in seconds, and is usually a combatant themselves. Targeting them is simple common sense. Unless the Federation wants to lose and waste the lives of its soldiers doing just that.
* The repair ships are of similar disposition, except they manage to get much more powerful systems up and running, forming what is arguably a much worse threat. It's not like these things are heavily armored tugs, nor do they simply stabilize the warp core. They get the ships back into combat status in seconds.
* It's pretty obvious that the "children" you refer to are more along the lines of genetically engineered beasts of burden. I seriously doubt anyone raided any Voth kindergardens. Furthermore, they are using the city-ships as command ships and heavy dreadnoughts complete with support and combat groups and using them in mass attacks. We do not know if they have children aboard, but if they do, deliberately and knowingly taking them into major combat operations is on the Voth, not on the alliance.
* In the time that you took to write this, a Voth, given the chance, would likely have shot you and lectured you about how sacred Doctrine was and how savage and insignificant mammals are as you slowly bled to death. Even before the Omega situation, they pretty much flat-out stated that non-Voth had no rights, period. These are not foes that are willing to come to the negotiation table. These are dogmatic racial supremacists that kill some of their best and brightest for even considering deviating from what's been accepted. Their society is so crippled by this they have barely advanced in millions of years - and yes, developing the tech they have over 'millions of years' is such a glacial pace it is barely advancing, considering the Federation has only a few hundred, or at most, thousand, years of FTL travel on most of its member worlds. I can't imagine they're more than 500 years beyond any Alpha or Beta Quadrant race, and quite probably 100-200.
The current strategy used by the Federation is a mixture of game mechanics, the desperate situation the realities of the Omega molecule places before them, and the common sense the Federation has had to sprout since the Dominion war upon realizing that not everyone in the galaxy was willingly to accept rigid pacifist ideals bestowed upon them by the benevolent and enlightened-beyond-all-others humans. Please give a moment to think about the context, and the fact that in-universe not everyone is willing and able to let themselves or their society collapse to prove some obscure philosophical point, even if some of the script writers on the show intended to portray Starfleet as doing little more than that.
Yeah, ok. Let's not forget I tried to use a wee humour in my writing. Ironically or sarcasticly inclined, is optional. And as mentioned in a previous post, i said that i didn't take all of Star Treks Canon with and/or without its flaws into consideration.
Yeah, ok. Let's not forget I tried to use a wee humour in my writing. Ironically or sarcasticly inclined, is optional. And as mentioned in a previous post, i said that i didn't take all of Star Treks Canon with and/or without its flaws into consideration.
If it was meant humorously, I apologize. Many on this forum scream how horrible the game is and how it should be Mirror Universe Trek Online because the Federation is so evil for actually fighting a war like it's a war, and for video games generally involving lots of grunts for you to kill, and after a while it grows most irksome. It was in this vein that I reacted.
At first you have to understand why there were families on board, that's a point most people misinterpret, stating the ship was a cruise liner or something like that. The intention was that the Explorers of the Galaxy Class were able to operate without any kind of external support for a very long period of time. People serving on those ships would dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to that task, they would basically live there. That's why they were allowed to take their families along. The saucer is not filled with families to it's capacity, there are only so much families for every officer they accompanied. The ship had a school and in that school there were what, six children?
Never the less, no one would take their family along if the ship wasn't fit with defensive capabilities that they'd deem fit to face the unknown in deep space. Exploration and research is the main task and the objective of the journey, the ship is well fitted for everything it faces and it was just logical that those ships, always on the edge of the Federation, also take care of the defense of said federation.
I will however point out that the more the Enterprise took over border patrol duties and muscle flexing towards the Romulans it would have been sensible to drop off families somewhere. I won't defend everything they did Yet, the concept of Starfleet and the difference towards militaries had been established pretty solidly on numerous occasions.
Not at all. At least not entirely.
There's nothing wrong with exploration vessels also needing the ability to defend themselves. However, the Enterprise, as flown by Picard, is often called 'the flagship of the Federation' (in a military sense). And THAT is where the duality gets odd. How many RL flight deck carriers do you know that carry the entire families of the crew too?! Or how many troops took their families along to Iraq?
Military flagships simply carry military personnel, not entire families and schools.
I understand why they did it, though: we wanted the emphasis on peaceful exploration, yet see the occasional pew-pew too. And the crew we came to identify with sought out 'to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations.' So, they couldn't very well pull up a new (largely anonymous) crew every time we needed to do battle. I get all of that. But overly realistic it ain't, is all.
There's nothing wrong with exploration vessels also needing the ability to defend themselves. However, the Enterprise, as flown by Picard, is often called 'the flagship of the Federation' (in a military sense). And THAT is where the duality gets odd. How many RL flight deck carriers do you know that carry the entire families of the crew too?! Or how many troops took their families along to Iraq?
Military flagships simply carry military personnel, not entire families and schools.
I understand why they did it, though: we wanted the emphasis on peaceful exploration, yet see the occasional pew-pew too. And the crew we came to identify with sought out 'to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations.' So, they couldn't very well pull up a new (largely anonymous) crew every time we needed to do battle. I get all of that. But overly realistic it ain't, is all.
Ultimately the Enterprise in TNG was a product of the fact that Gene Roddenberry wanted to use the show as a platform for morality plays. As such Star Trek during the later years of his presence grew less practical and more oriented towards illustrating principles. The Enterprise is really the apex of this. When he asked for the bridge to be designed, he wanted the basis to be - literally - a hotel lobby. Keep in mind that he said that things like espionage would turn the show into "Buck Rogers" style "nonsense," so rather clearly he cared little for practicality in at least some respects.
A more thought-out premise wouldn't have kids on the Enterprise unless it was a truly long-range, deep-space vessel. The Galaxy class is clearly CAPABLE of this role, although the question is whether or not the mission of the Enterprise was oriented towards this. Although it did exploration, it likely isn't going on the long-term voyage many think of when one says '5 year mission,' even though the Ent-D did not in fact have a 5 year mission. Starbases wouldn't have likely been close enough to get near except around the beginning and end of the show's run if it were so, yet the Enterprise returns to Earth multiple times during the show's run. In fact, TOS is a little like this as well with regards to the '5 year mission' having Federation ports of call it visits, as well as going on semi-military and military operations on occasion.
If this were designed to be more believable, then chances are we'd have a Federation military independent of Starfleet that likely drafted Starfleet ships and personnel into service in times of war, or at least a military branch of Starfleet set aside for standard militarized actions with the other branch oriented towards scientific and exploratory goals. Unfortunately, it wasn't, leaving the uncomfortable dual-role Starfleet that fulfills both roles but is in chronic denial, which might actually be a serious problem for Starfleet's internal culture in some places. So the stories make do with what they have, namely Starfleet acting in the military role that is essential for a state to maintain its sovereignty and independence from foreign actors.
There's a rather old saying: If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I think it applies here in a cultural and even generational sense.
It's very easy, even addictive, to poke holes in Star Trek's storyline, setting, and even the Federation itself, holding it up to the norms and expectations of the present. But in this is the problem: it may be fiction, but the very idea of it for a very long time was to offer a "what if": what if we could emerge from the troubles of the now, and of the near future (See the Bell Riots in the DS9 Episodes "Past Tense"), and ultimately come out better for it.
Turning one's nose up at hippie nudist colonies on Earth and the like can be expected for a lot of people, and I'm fine with that. My beef is with this "the galaxy is a territorial land-grab waiting to happen, all surverying is for purposes of military conquest" business. It's taking the cynical war profiteering and robber baron antics of the present and applying them to the Trek future.
Yeah, there were episodes of Trek that poked holes in the Federation itself, most famously "In A Pale Moonlight". But keep in mind that Trek is written by many writers, and the ones that wrote these are the ones that had a giant chip on their shoulder, personal vendettas against the old-fashioned take of the previous writing staff, and simply fanboying for these exceptions and ignoring the entire rest of the franchise is simply cherry-picking.
So, TLDR version: The Federation isn't perfect (See "Drumhead" for an early TNG example), but it's intellectual laziness to throw up one's hands, declare everything to be bunk over the content of a few episodes, and then fantasize about some grimdark Heinlein alien-slaughtering fantasy.
Does any of this discussion matter? Seriously, if the game doesn't match exactly in all particulars our very own idea of what Star Trek really is, then why do we insist on aggravating ourselves by spending valuable free time playing and discussing it?
Gameplay in STO is skewed towards conflict. Why? Because this is what market research shows pwe/cryptic that potential and actual customers want. Is it Star Trek? No not entirely. If they change the game around to Uncle Jean-Luc's Feel-Good Happy Hour, how many will still play? Riiight.
It's a pretty good game overall. Despite what posts in these forums would have us believe. Consider other Star Trek based games before passing judgement on this one. Games like Star Trek D-A-C or Armada II. Were they any closer to what we watched on Netflix yesterday? I don't think so.
So it needs a few things. So what? Did the Dev Team suddenly decide to just stop working on STO and not tell anyone? This is my second MMO after BSGO. The thing I've noticed about both is when I view them as works in progress rather than completed games, my irritation level goes waay down. So I've not gotten everything I want five seconds ago. Again, So what?
Doesn't mean it will never appear in STO. Just that it hasn't yet.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Does any of this discussion matter? Seriously, if the game doesn't match exactly in all particulars our very own idea of what Star Trek really is, then why do we insist on aggravating ourselves by spending valuable free time playing and discussing it?
Gameplay in STO is skewed towards conflict. Why? Because this is what market research shows pwe/cryptic that potential and actual customers want. Is it Star Trek? No not entirely. If they change the game around to Uncle Jean-Luc's Feel-Good Happy Hour, how many will still play? Riiight.
It's a pretty good game overall. Despite what posts in these forums would have us believe. Consider other Star Trek based games before passing judgement on this one. Games like Star Trek D-A-C or Armada II. Were they any closer to what we watched on Netflix yesterday? I don't think so.
So it needs a few things. So what? Did the Dev Team suddenly decide to just stop working on STO and not tell anyone? This is my second MMO after BSGO. The thing I've noticed about both is when I view them as works in progress rather than completed games, my irritation level goes waay down. So I've not gotten everything I want five seconds ago. Again, So what?
Doesn't mean it will never appear in STO. Just that it hasn't yet.
Considering how many threads have been made in the past demanding exploration, diplomacy, and lasting Trek-themed consequences for captain decisions (as hard as that can be to even begin to design in an MMO setting), I disagree about none of this "mattering."
Yes, the game we got has a lot of shooting and a lot of exploding ships and a lot of people being shot and disintegrated with exploit attacks. That doesn't incriminate the Federation or Starfleet any more than the cherry picking of finding a DS9 episode (and it's usually a DS9 episode for previously mentioned reasons) and ignoring everything else.
There's nothing wrong with exploration vessels also needing the ability to defend themselves. However, the Enterprise, as flown by Picard, is often called 'the flagship of the Federation' (in a military sense). And THAT is where the duality gets odd. How many RL flight deck carriers do you know that carry the entire families of the crew too?! Or how many troops took their families along to Iraq?
Military flagships simply carry military personnel, not entire families and schools.
(...)
Why do you assume that's a military term? Throughout Star Trek it has been shown that the term "flagship of the federation" is meant in another way. MA quote:
" (...) A third, more colloquial usage of the term can mean that the ship in question is considered an "exemplar" of the best capabilities and virtues of the force it represents. "
You are right that it can be a military term, it was used in that regard in the same show (the article on MA has examples). Yet, the Ent-D served as the figurehead of the ideals of the Federation, that's what the "flagship" term means in that regard, not that it carries military personnel. And it was certainly not a carrier going to Iraq, it was a Starfleet Explorer. Like others have said, Star Trek didn't tell a story of how our 21st century moralities were carried into the future.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Why do you assume that's a military term? Throughout Star Trek it has been shown that the term "flagship of the federation" is meant in another way. MA quote:
" (...) A third, more colloquial usage of the term can mean that the ship in question is considered an "exemplar" of the best capabilities and virtues of the force it represents. "
You are right that it can be a military term, it was used in that regard in the same show (the article on MA has examples). Yet, the Ent-D served as the figurehead of the ideals of the Federation, that's what the "flagship" term means in that regard, not that it carries military personnel. And it was certainly not a carrier going to Iraq, it was a Starfleet Explorer. Like others have said, Star Trek didn't tell a story of how our 21st century moralities were carried into the future.
It may be futile at this point to sway people looking for a militaristic territory-seeking resource grabbing armada masquerading as a fleet of explorers, from any other point of view but what they're looking for.
Every time I see evidence presented to counter their views, it seems they just ignore it and keep quoting their favorite exceptions.
I guess they want Starship Troopers with phasers. Which is odd because there's better places to find that, thematically.
From my own personal understanding of the show and what Roddenberry was trying to do in creating it, the Federation is an ethical place.
It isn't perfect and knows it and tries to be better where it can. Trying to be better than giving up is seen as a noble effort. Star Trek Online is a video game mimicing the show and for the most part tries to have exploration, diplomacy and dialogue (most notably in the post launch content). But still being a video game we can accept the nature of conflict within it to promote character advancement as is seen in other MMO's of its particular type.
If the game were designed on a different design philosophy from the beginning we might have something of a simulation, where we go about fixing a ship we're stationed on, analyzing data or attending diplomatic functions. It might represent some of the Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force (I and II) roleplaying environments that tried to create this for Star Trek enthusiasts.
On the ethics of the Federation you can look at its paramilitary organization, Starfleet. Let us compare it to the US military. Specifically in relation to General Order One. Both possess it but they are vastly different.
In the US Army general order one is (as close as I can recall) "You will not quit your post until relieved."
In Starfleet, general order one is (as close as I can understand it) "A Starfleet Officer will not interfere in the natural development of another culture" With various subsections on pre-warp civilizations and other factors. This is known as the Prime Directive.
In this fiction of Star Trek we are shown a better time than our own. A better time than even 1966-69 had. There was the fears of nuclear war, Soviets conquering the world, the encroachment of machines taking over jobs in factories. Star Trek then gave an idea of a better future where there was a russian officer on board, earth was at peace, and men still labored aboard a ship and computers weren't taking over (such struggles seen in "the Ultimate Computer"
I think the reason we want to drag Star Trek down into the dirt is because from its lofty perch we ourselves feel ugly, ashamed. Instead of aspiring to reach that high, it feels easier to clasp onto it and drag it down into the mud with us.
I firmly believe STO could easily improve something, without loosing players because of it becoming more TNG'y.
What instantly comes to mind, is to improve exploring. If this would be developed with thought, it would indeed be something to turn your outgrinded crew to.
As it is now, I haven't even bothered giving it a thought. There are things in this game that give so much more payoff, than exploring a 'zone' 3x75 times to get an accolade w/title.
Do the 3x75 seventeen, or is it nineteen times... ...ptcha. Yeah. Invigorating.
If the exploring was the a little bit more varied, or... ...:eek:... ...challenging... -i wouldn't mind do it from time to time, when my usual doffing, mining and fleetmark collecting was done for the day. The only times I get (remotely) close to consider 'exploring', is between events and seson releases. -when my routines are done within 1hour, because of the 'all is done, what now'-syndrome.
I don't think people would flee, just because there are no direct pew-pew going on.
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Then you could say the same about the US Military. We don't always attack first[there are instances across the years yes i know] but on the balance US Military doesn't normally attack first.
Sorry Starfleet is a military organization. Granted most times they do exploration, humanitarian services and the like, but so does the US Military.
We call it HAO. Humanitarian Assistance Operations. Sorry Starfleet is a military.
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I'm pretty sure there are planetary shields, bunker installations and weapon platforms, at least DS9 "Homefront" mentions that Earth's planetary defenses were offline due to changeling sabotage. But other than that, most defenses we ever see are in action before enemy vessels approach orbit (Defense pods, stations, minefields, drones etc.)
This, well spoken
Regarding US Army and humanitarian aid: I'm sure the Red Cross pales in comparision. No, seriously, the US Military is neither the model for Starfleet nor do the have much in common, sorry.
I have problems with the "Wolf 359 was a wake-up call for the Federation", especially when justifying a militarisation or more tactical focus of Starfleet.
You see, the original Borg were an argument to picture the one-way-street which is continous arms build-up. The Borg were no adversary you'd fight and "Resistance is futile" wasn't only an empty phrase, it was a fact. The Borg as portrayed in TNG were a force of nature, so to speak. The entire Klingon Armada wouldn't have stopped that cube, Wolf 359 wouldn't have looked any different. When facing the Borg, it doesn't matter how many ships or guns you have, you cannot beat them with force, by design. The Defiant as a "design to combat the Borg" makes no sense at all - only in the context that with First Contact, the Borg were completely re-written to become space vampires with a lair and a queen. Originally, you just couldn't fight them for the simple reason that they don't have any home or installations you could bring the war to. But their entire premise was abandoned and nothing they did in TNG makes sense with the "new" Borg which became a ridiculous nuisance.
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I can understand some of the borg redesign, making them super tough but not invincible and able to adapt but not to the point of being indestructible makes more sense to me. The whole queen thing was stupid though and forced on First Contact by the Paramount brass apparently.
As for Starfleet it would just be good sense to rebuild their fleet with newer better armed and defended ships after such a catastrophic loss at Wolf 359. This is why there are anti borg ships like the Defiant and Sovereign though both come in useful for other things.
Oh, don't get me started on "the queen"
Yeah, it was pretty much a cheap move to "casualize" the Borg to be a regular movie adversary. As far as I'm concerned, the original Borg weren't designed to be tv-show villians, they were a metaphor. In-universe of course, after such losses Starfleet has to build new ships and those are more advanced and all, but if you think about it, what good is a Defiant against the Borg? It never saw action against the Borg (except for First Contact and, well, even then it doesn't do all that well) and if it would face TNG's Borg nothing would have changed. No armour or gun helps you to "win" against the Borg and if you manage it, all you do is buying some time. Be glad "we" had Q
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RL militaries do a lot of charting and exploring. Accurate maps are crucial in battle. Just ask Napolean if you don't believe me.
My character Tsin'xing
Starfleet serves as the UFPs military, that's right. But it is not a military, it's a petite difference
And I believe you. Yet again, those are two entirely different animals
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I vote for cookies.... The fed are always thin, so they obviously hate cookies... So I play KDF...
My god. . .that explains everything.
It forgets to mention the token Native American, Chipotle, pissing off the Voth and ensuring the Voth 'government' would have nothing but bad things to think about the human race.
And all throughout Voyager's entire trip, Janeway's telling everyone where to find the Federation, and then (as the only representative of said Federation) pissing off half the people she comes across.
The Federation is one heck of a troublemaker :P
Fun fact: Age of Sail wet navies did a lot of exploration. HMS Beagle that Darwin rode in on was a Royal Navy warship, and in 1838 the US Navy sent a small squadron on an exploration mission. Starfleet borrows heavily from Age of Sail navies in many respects.
I stand by my prior assertion that Starfleet is a military. The trick is, Starfleet isn't only a military.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And this odd duality has always been a bit of a design flaw, IMHO: we want the Federation to be civilized explorers; yet, at the same time, their military flagship, commanded by Picard et al., consists of a huge disc filled with families and children... Riiight. At the onset of ST;TNG they briefly tried to deal with this inconsistency by adding Chevron separation and a battle bridge and all, but soon gave up on that.
Starfleet: Cool! Wormhole!
Dominion: F*** off.
Starfleet: Eh, I'm sure they won't mind us wandering around.
Dominion: *blows stuff up* I said, f*** off.
Starfleet: Maybe we can talk to them?
Dominion: *blows more stuff up* F*** the f*** off.
Starfleet: Maybe they're bluffing.
Dominion: Okay, you TRIBBLE$holes asked for it. *launches attack*
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Starfleet does pretty much everything. But for most parts, it is a military force, regardless of the Posh Federation that exists from TNG onwards likes to believe.
What is at the forefront of every potential problem for the Federation?
When someone wants to poke for trouble with the Federation, what organization is called to deal with it? Or who's ships are called to bring a Federation diplomat to the crisis?
When conflicts, large or small have broken out, what Federation organization is called to serve first and foremost?
Who fought in all the wars against the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, the Dominion?
Officers like Picard like to say it's all about Exploration. To a great degree, they are right. In peacetime. But when war breaks out, Starfleet is the sword and shield of the Federation. It is Starfleet's vessels and personnel that bear the vast majority of losses that the Federation incurs during war; It is their people that are sent to fight and die in some remote places of space.
Nobody else in the Federation deals with such a thing as an expected duty and risk. Nobody else in the Federation has such a key duty in fighting the Federation's wars.
The Federation may not openly say it because they try to be friendly about things, but for most parts, the strength of Starfleet deters conflict. The threat of force in making others think twice about doing harm to the Federation is what Starfleet does.
That is why, first and foremost, Starfleet is a military organization.
Yep, pretty much.
Plus honestly I don't see how getting rid of religion and governments will fix anything seeing as it seems like every time someone is being an a@#hole on the basis of those things its because they really are an a@#hole an its just an excuse they use to justify it.
In fact we could probably get rid of every difference between people and some people will still find something they think justifies being an a@#hole even if its some nonsense they pulled out of their a@#.
- The Federation does have the right to defend itself from attack. Regardless of the causes behind such an attack.
-The Federation's member states have chosen the Federation (and Starfleet) through self determination. Therefore the Federation (and Starfleet) are the preferred method of defending said member states of the Federation.
- Regardless of precedent or structure, part of Starfleet's mandate is to defend the member states and interests of said member states of the Federation.
- Starfleet answers to the member states of the Federation primarily through the Federation Council. Which is the chief government body responsible for setting Starfleet policy and guidance. It is reasonable to assume the Council can and does change these based upon the current needs of the Federation as a whole.
In STO, it is obvious the needs of the Federation and its interests have shifted towards a requirement for Starfleet to behave in a more military manner. While this may be viewed with dismay and a diminished respect for Starfleet as well by some people, it does not make this shift in stature and policy less true or less needed. As the needs of the member states of the Federation change, so will the policies and guidance provided by the Federation Council to Starfleet.
Well look who's model they follow. I mean John Archer for godsakes. How many times did he say "Hi we're from earth nice to meet you!" And summarily get shot at?
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* The whole reason they are there is to stop the Omega Particles from being used for horrible things, which is usually what they end up being used for, even if by accident. As for the specific Voth situation, you may find the T5 Dyson Rep cut scene enlightening. Omega itself is rightly feared by everyone who doesn't want starship-based society to collapse overnight because somebody decided to set off a bomb full of Omega. This takes priority over exploring any sphere.
* The entire attitude of the Voth is essentially such that it can be assumed that they started shooting first. We do not know how the actual combat began, as a matter of fact, but I could very, very easily see it. Plus given their attitude no sane society could afford to take the risk of letting them get a lot of the stuff.
* IRL, medics aren't fired upon because once someone's got enough holes in them to warrant a medic, they're out of the fight. In the game, a medic returns a combatant to the battlefield in seconds, and is usually a combatant themselves. Targeting them is simple common sense. Unless the Federation wants to lose and waste the lives of its soldiers doing just that.
* The repair ships are of similar disposition, except they manage to get much more powerful systems up and running, forming what is arguably a much worse threat. It's not like these things are heavily armored tugs, nor do they simply stabilize the warp core. They get the ships back into combat status in seconds.
* It's pretty obvious that the "children" you refer to are more along the lines of genetically engineered beasts of burden. I seriously doubt anyone raided any Voth kindergardens. Furthermore, they are using the city-ships as command ships and heavy dreadnoughts complete with support and combat groups and using them in mass attacks. We do not know if they have children aboard, but if they do, deliberately and knowingly taking them into major combat operations is on the Voth, not on the alliance.
* In the time that you took to write this, a Voth, given the chance, would likely have shot you and lectured you about how sacred Doctrine was and how savage and insignificant mammals are as you slowly bled to death. Even before the Omega situation, they pretty much flat-out stated that non-Voth had no rights, period. These are not foes that are willing to come to the negotiation table. These are dogmatic racial supremacists that kill some of their best and brightest for even considering deviating from what's been accepted. Their society is so crippled by this they have barely advanced in millions of years - and yes, developing the tech they have over 'millions of years' is such a glacial pace it is barely advancing, considering the Federation has only a few hundred, or at most, thousand, years of FTL travel on most of its member worlds. I can't imagine they're more than 500 years beyond any Alpha or Beta Quadrant race, and quite probably 100-200.
The current strategy used by the Federation is a mixture of game mechanics, the desperate situation the realities of the Omega molecule places before them, and the common sense the Federation has had to sprout since the Dominion war upon realizing that not everyone in the galaxy was willingly to accept rigid pacifist ideals bestowed upon them by the benevolent and enlightened-beyond-all-others humans. Please give a moment to think about the context, and the fact that in-universe not everyone is willing and able to let themselves or their society collapse to prove some obscure philosophical point, even if some of the script writers on the show intended to portray Starfleet as doing little more than that.
Not at all. At least not entirely.
At first you have to understand why there were families on board, that's a point most people misinterpret, stating the ship was a cruise liner or something like that. The intention was that the Explorers of the Galaxy Class were able to operate without any kind of external support for a very long period of time. People serving on those ships would dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to that task, they would basically live there. That's why they were allowed to take their families along. The saucer is not filled with families to it's capacity, there are only so much families for every officer they accompanied. The ship had a school and in that school there were what, six children?
Never the less, no one would take their family along if the ship wasn't fit with defensive capabilities that they'd deem fit to face the unknown in deep space. Exploration and research is the main task and the objective of the journey, the ship is well fitted for everything it faces and it was just logical that those ships, always on the edge of the Federation, also take care of the defense of said federation.
I will however point out that the more the Enterprise took over border patrol duties and muscle flexing towards the Romulans it would have been sensible to drop off families somewhere. I won't defend everything they did
You are right in every point, I'm not trying to say Starfleet does not fight. In fact, I have stated several times that they DID - it is just not their primary function. Though seeing that some people want to call the US military a humanitarian aid organization I see this is problematic
Our present day world and society vlues the one with the biggest stick most. Star Trek had hopes that one day we'll evolve past that and Starfleet was a model for such a broad service organization that'll surpass what we have right now. But many people have a problem with that kind of thing, thus the IP itself had been massively modified to resemble more common Sci-Fi traits and STO basically just let's us have Space Marines and shooty stuff and smacks a Trek chevron on top
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Yeah, the Federation doesn't seem to know how to step cautiously. The mentality seems to be 'hey, let's just poke our noses around here a bit, if they catch us we'll just say we're sorry and move on', when the 'other' in question has made it clear they don't want others poking around.
This casual defiance of territorial sovereignty can also be observed via Janeway and her regular method of 'what I want to reach (Earth) is on the other side, so they can suck eggs. Also, where's my coffee?!'.
Yeah, ok. Let's not forget I tried to use a wee humour in my writing. Ironically or sarcasticly inclined, is optional. And as mentioned in a previous post, i said that i didn't take all of Star Treks Canon with and/or without its flaws into consideration.
If it was meant humorously, I apologize. Many on this forum scream how horrible the game is and how it should be Mirror Universe Trek Online because the Federation is so evil for actually fighting a war like it's a war, and for video games generally involving lots of grunts for you to kill, and after a while it grows most irksome. It was in this vein that I reacted.
Not at all. At least not entirely.
There's nothing wrong with exploration vessels also needing the ability to defend themselves. However, the Enterprise, as flown by Picard, is often called 'the flagship of the Federation' (in a military sense). And THAT is where the duality gets odd. How many RL flight deck carriers do you know that carry the entire families of the crew too?! Or how many troops took their families along to Iraq?
Military flagships simply carry military personnel, not entire families and schools.
I understand why they did it, though: we wanted the emphasis on peaceful exploration, yet see the occasional pew-pew too. And the crew we came to identify with sought out 'to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations.' So, they couldn't very well pull up a new (largely anonymous) crew every time we needed to do battle. I get all of that. But overly realistic it ain't, is all.
Ultimately the Enterprise in TNG was a product of the fact that Gene Roddenberry wanted to use the show as a platform for morality plays. As such Star Trek during the later years of his presence grew less practical and more oriented towards illustrating principles. The Enterprise is really the apex of this. When he asked for the bridge to be designed, he wanted the basis to be - literally - a hotel lobby. Keep in mind that he said that things like espionage would turn the show into "Buck Rogers" style "nonsense," so rather clearly he cared little for practicality in at least some respects.
A more thought-out premise wouldn't have kids on the Enterprise unless it was a truly long-range, deep-space vessel. The Galaxy class is clearly CAPABLE of this role, although the question is whether or not the mission of the Enterprise was oriented towards this. Although it did exploration, it likely isn't going on the long-term voyage many think of when one says '5 year mission,' even though the Ent-D did not in fact have a 5 year mission. Starbases wouldn't have likely been close enough to get near except around the beginning and end of the show's run if it were so, yet the Enterprise returns to Earth multiple times during the show's run. In fact, TOS is a little like this as well with regards to the '5 year mission' having Federation ports of call it visits, as well as going on semi-military and military operations on occasion.
If this were designed to be more believable, then chances are we'd have a Federation military independent of Starfleet that likely drafted Starfleet ships and personnel into service in times of war, or at least a military branch of Starfleet set aside for standard militarized actions with the other branch oriented towards scientific and exploratory goals. Unfortunately, it wasn't, leaving the uncomfortable dual-role Starfleet that fulfills both roles but is in chronic denial, which might actually be a serious problem for Starfleet's internal culture in some places. So the stories make do with what they have, namely Starfleet acting in the military role that is essential for a state to maintain its sovereignty and independence from foreign actors.
I think it applies here in a cultural and even generational sense.
It's very easy, even addictive, to poke holes in Star Trek's storyline, setting, and even the Federation itself, holding it up to the norms and expectations of the present. But in this is the problem: it may be fiction, but the very idea of it for a very long time was to offer a "what if": what if we could emerge from the troubles of the now, and of the near future (See the Bell Riots in the DS9 Episodes "Past Tense"), and ultimately come out better for it.
Turning one's nose up at hippie nudist colonies on Earth and the like can be expected for a lot of people, and I'm fine with that. My beef is with this "the galaxy is a territorial land-grab waiting to happen, all surverying is for purposes of military conquest" business. It's taking the cynical war profiteering and robber baron antics of the present and applying them to the Trek future.
Yeah, there were episodes of Trek that poked holes in the Federation itself, most famously "In A Pale Moonlight". But keep in mind that Trek is written by many writers, and the ones that wrote these are the ones that had a giant chip on their shoulder, personal vendettas against the old-fashioned take of the previous writing staff, and simply fanboying for these exceptions and ignoring the entire rest of the franchise is simply cherry-picking.
So, TLDR version: The Federation isn't perfect (See "Drumhead" for an early TNG example), but it's intellectual laziness to throw up one's hands, declare everything to be bunk over the content of a few episodes, and then fantasize about some grimdark Heinlein alien-slaughtering fantasy.
Gameplay in STO is skewed towards conflict. Why? Because this is what market research shows pwe/cryptic that potential and actual customers want. Is it Star Trek? No not entirely. If they change the game around to Uncle Jean-Luc's Feel-Good Happy Hour, how many will still play? Riiight.
It's a pretty good game overall. Despite what posts in these forums would have us believe. Consider other Star Trek based games before passing judgement on this one. Games like Star Trek D-A-C or Armada II. Were they any closer to what we watched on Netflix yesterday? I don't think so.
So it needs a few things. So what? Did the Dev Team suddenly decide to just stop working on STO and not tell anyone? This is my second MMO after BSGO. The thing I've noticed about both is when I view them as works in progress rather than completed games, my irritation level goes waay down. So I've not gotten everything I want five seconds ago. Again, So what?
Doesn't mean it will never appear in STO. Just that it hasn't yet.
Considering how many threads have been made in the past demanding exploration, diplomacy, and lasting Trek-themed consequences for captain decisions (as hard as that can be to even begin to design in an MMO setting), I disagree about none of this "mattering."
Yes, the game we got has a lot of shooting and a lot of exploding ships and a lot of people being shot and disintegrated with exploit attacks. That doesn't incriminate the Federation or Starfleet any more than the cherry picking of finding a DS9 episode (and it's usually a DS9 episode for previously mentioned reasons) and ignoring everything else.
Why do you assume that's a military term? Throughout Star Trek it has been shown that the term "flagship of the federation" is meant in another way. MA quote:
" (...) A third, more colloquial usage of the term can mean that the ship in question is considered an "exemplar" of the best capabilities and virtues of the force it represents. "
You are right that it can be a military term, it was used in that regard in the same show (the article on MA has examples). Yet, the Ent-D served as the figurehead of the ideals of the Federation, that's what the "flagship" term means in that regard, not that it carries military personnel. And it was certainly not a carrier going to Iraq, it was a Starfleet Explorer. Like others have said, Star Trek didn't tell a story of how our 21st century moralities were carried into the future.
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It may be futile at this point to sway people looking for a militaristic territory-seeking resource grabbing armada masquerading as a fleet of explorers, from any other point of view but what they're looking for.
Every time I see evidence presented to counter their views, it seems they just ignore it and keep quoting their favorite exceptions.
I guess they want Starship Troopers with phasers. Which is odd because there's better places to find that, thematically.
It isn't perfect and knows it and tries to be better where it can. Trying to be better than giving up is seen as a noble effort. Star Trek Online is a video game mimicing the show and for the most part tries to have exploration, diplomacy and dialogue (most notably in the post launch content). But still being a video game we can accept the nature of conflict within it to promote character advancement as is seen in other MMO's of its particular type.
If the game were designed on a different design philosophy from the beginning we might have something of a simulation, where we go about fixing a ship we're stationed on, analyzing data or attending diplomatic functions. It might represent some of the Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force (I and II) roleplaying environments that tried to create this for Star Trek enthusiasts.
On the ethics of the Federation you can look at its paramilitary organization, Starfleet. Let us compare it to the US military. Specifically in relation to General Order One. Both possess it but they are vastly different.
In the US Army general order one is (as close as I can recall) "You will not quit your post until relieved."
In Starfleet, general order one is (as close as I can understand it) "A Starfleet Officer will not interfere in the natural development of another culture" With various subsections on pre-warp civilizations and other factors. This is known as the Prime Directive.
In this fiction of Star Trek we are shown a better time than our own. A better time than even 1966-69 had. There was the fears of nuclear war, Soviets conquering the world, the encroachment of machines taking over jobs in factories. Star Trek then gave an idea of a better future where there was a russian officer on board, earth was at peace, and men still labored aboard a ship and computers weren't taking over (such struggles seen in "the Ultimate Computer"
I think the reason we want to drag Star Trek down into the dirt is because from its lofty perch we ourselves feel ugly, ashamed. Instead of aspiring to reach that high, it feels easier to clasp onto it and drag it down into the mud with us.
What instantly comes to mind, is to improve exploring. If this would be developed with thought, it would indeed be something to turn your outgrinded crew to.
As it is now, I haven't even bothered giving it a thought. There are things in this game that give so much more payoff, than exploring a 'zone' 3x75 times to get an accolade w/title.
Do the 3x75 seventeen, or is it nineteen times... ...ptcha. Yeah. Invigorating.
If the exploring was the a little bit more varied, or... ...:eek:... ...challenging... -i wouldn't mind do it from time to time, when my usual doffing, mining and fleetmark collecting was done for the day. The only times I get (remotely) close to consider 'exploring', is between events and seson releases. -when my routines are done within 1hour, because of the 'all is done, what now'-syndrome.
I don't think people would flee, just because there are no direct pew-pew going on.