Ahem... Let me just say a few things about everyone who say that the Federation is a force of "good" and about the whole "holier than thou" attitude.
While Picard and Sisko are the peak of morality the Federation as an institution is not.
How many times did Picard or Sisko go against the Federation to do the right thing?
How many colonies has the Federaion leave at the mercy of the other forces of the Alpha quadrant?
Section 31 anyone?
How many times did you actually see the Federation doing the right thing out of morality and not out of interest or to preserve it's own security?
Archer committed the Valakian to extinction by not giving them a warp drive.
Another morality issue, the federation didn't lift a finger to liberate Bajor for 50 years, never mind that 15,000,000 Bajorans died in that time, until Cardassians tried to annex Minos Korva. Than since they touched a Federation planet they decided to act.
So please the Federation as a whole is far cry from benevolent.
Very true.
In fact, it's an ongoing-if-subtle plot point that after Wolf 359 (and the Dominion War), the Federation has been increasingly moving away from answering problems with diplomacy first, shooting later. It's simply come to it's logical conclusion in STO imo
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
For a moment I thought I was in the Old Republic forums.
The reason for that is that for a long time now there's been at least one (and often several) group-hug exercises involving moral relativists congratulating themselves for deciding the Jedi/Republic are "the real bad guys" and that the Sith/Empire are the "real good guys because muh freedum". Of course there they have to do some very serious cognitive dissonance, such as finding a voluntary leave-if-you-can't-handle-it order of monastics "too oppressive" and then equating it or making it worse to the outright slavery and genocide the Sith do on a regular basis.
Here, looks like the flavor is "the Federation is a bummer because there's a vague sense of post-scarcity egalitarianism and that's totally librul and lame so let's take the stuff grimdark enough in DS9 and run wild with it!"
Summary: you find in Trek what you want to find in it. If you want to selectively ignore the rest, the social commentary, the sense of hope, the idea of "we could be better people" and just wallow in the metephorical mud because it's edgier to cling to that "In the Pale Moonlight" episode forever, be my guest I suppose.
It's the equivalent of us at the end of the Cold War saying we have enough nukes to depopulate Earth twenty times (or whatever the number was; it's not important). What this really means is we could smash every populated area on the planet twenty times (i.e. there's enough destructive power that it's redundant to itself). It's not saying that the effects are cumulative, that more molecules = bigger radius of effect.
So again, why should I give a damn that some random one-shot species blew themselves out of warp capability?
The Voyager episode did state that the effect was cumulative - when they discovered that there wasn't one but thousands of molecules they no longer had the fallback option of letting the reaction occur and fleeing ahead of the shockwave - it wouldn't just destroy subspace over a sector like the Federation or Borg's failed experiments, but a large portion of the quadrant.
And the number was actually about 0.25 times over. At our peak we still had less than 12 gigatons of nuclear weapons, the majority of which was tied up in ridiculous low-yield strategic weapons weapons like the Davy Crockett, which would not be used in a full scale exchange, and if actually used would cause more friendly fire damage than anything. The actual amount of depopulation expected in a nuclear war is almost disappointing after reading the rhetoric against it.
And they were being used to deter all of the largest nations and most of the powerful small nations in the world - nations which cumulatively with their allies and holdings accounted for about two thirds of the planet's land area, with the other third by and large unlikely to be targeted (aside from a few scattered bases or ships belonging to the involved powers in those areas).
The Voth's plan is almost the exact opposite: They're basically threatening to take the toys and go home, and if anybody doesn't want to play by their rules then nobody gets to play again. Ever.
What about all those times leveling up you were swooping into some unsuspecting sector with guns and phasers ready and charged to blow up the first ship in sight? There's a lot wrong with the feds, by the sphere is the least of it's worries as far as ethics are concerned.
Well it's a defensive war for them... according to Doctrine their ancestors must have been the one to create the sphere, therefore they are just trying to defend it. The scientists are doing their duty to protect and uphold doctrine. Sending them out to defend our ancestors rightful claims with no armor and nothing but a hand pistol is a great place for someone questioning doctrine to go to learn the importance of upholding doctrine.
Pardon? When did we arm medics? I have relatives that earned medals because they were unarmed medics that performed underfire by picking up the weapon of one of his fallen squadmates and using it to eliminate an aggressor shooting at them. So at least to Vietnam we did not arm medics.
However the general rule of thumb is, if they are shooting at you, you may shoot back.
Let the courts decide if they were legitimate after the fighting is over.
I do not know if Voyager is the worst, that is rather subjective. But the Omega protocols are poorly thought out to say the least. Only the captain knows about them and the moment any scan finds them the whole ship locks up? Say what happens if in the middle of battle the scanners find a particle? The ship stops flying and gets creamed.
So, yeah rather poorly thought out.
We started arming medics shortly after WW2 due to being in conflicts with opposing factions which did not recognize the Geneva convention. It started with Korea, as NK military personnel would target unarmed military chaplains and medics. So we started arming them.
Just quoting the Omega directive at me isn't going to convince me that it isn't the second-stupidest idea VOY ever came up with (behind Neelix, obviously). Try again, because "A starship captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive." I respect Kirk far more than I respect Janeway.
Kirk??? Kirk threw the prime directive away like yesterdays moldy sandwich on many occasions, sometimes non-interference with other cultures is not possible thus standing order 24 (section 33) and in line with the same over riding or higher responsibility to sentient life as a whole. The Omega protocol was written under the same reasoning (to preserve warp travel) Not to mention the aggressive nature of the Voth species ( as documented by VOY ) We knew what to expect plus the Romulans already stepped into that bear trap...
We started arming medics shortly after WW2 due to being in conflicts with opposing factions which did not recognize the Geneva convention. It started with Korea, as NK military personnel would target unarmed military chaplains and medics. So we started arming them.
While we're at it, let me enlighten you all about how irrelevant a thing like the Geneva Convention really is. The only reason two warring factions would adhere to such a set of rules is for fear of outside involvement.
And since everyone is already ganging up on the Voth anyway, who cares about silly rules. Kill them all and take their stuff. That's what a war is all about.
The facts of life on this planet: in war, medics and hospitals are primary targets (unless there's a camera present). Seriously, field medics have the highest chance of being shot in battle. And it makes sense (in a kinda gruesome way): why kill 1 lone soldier, when you can kill the guy that can heal 10 of them?!
as far as war goes a wounded enemy is better than a dead enemy. the dead enemy is just that dead and his trench mates are free to fight. a wounded enemy also pulls others off the line to aid him. so one gut shot enemy can actually remove 2 or more from the battle instead of just 1.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Just quoting the Omega directive at me isn't going to convince me that it isn't the second-stupidest idea VOY ever came up with (behind Neelix, obviously). Try again, because "A starship captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive." I respect Kirk far more than I respect Janeway.
You do realize KIRK WROTE THE OMEGA DIRECTIVE. Well atleast the first draft of it.
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You do realize KIRK WROTE THE OMEGA DIRECTIVE. Well atleast the first draft of it.
Oh, I've been waiting for somebody to try that argument.
No, that was decided by another video game that is not considered STO canon, based on a throwaway line from "The Omega Directive" that dated it to contemporary with Kirk's captaincy. Not the same thing.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, I've been waiting for somebody to try that argument.
No, that was decided by another video game that is not considered STO canon, based on a throwaway line from "The Omega Directive" that dated it to contemporary with Kirk's captaincy. Not the same thing.
Considering shatner reprised his voice, whether or not it's "cannon" doesn't mean that Kirk wouldn't do it.
Just sayin.
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I have said this before. The game is mum on what happened in the first meeting between us and the voth. For all we know the voth were beligerent first.
I have said this before. The game is mum on what happened in the first meeting between us and the voth. For all we know the voth were beligerent first.
Show, Don't Tell. Let us see the negotiations go bad. Don't just have them get handwaved with one forgettable line as having gone bad offsreen.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Federation, the Empire, and the Republic are facing an enemy here who has no qualms about eliminating the warp drive capability of any and all of its enemies. All this hand wringing about, "Duh EBIL Federayshun!" and moral compasses and the like is downright silly.
Would it make the game more enjoyable if the Feds, the Klinks, and the Rommies were facing an enemy which only threatened their trade access to the Delta Quadrant? Nope.
Would it make the game more enjoyable if you as a Starfleet Captain were forced to stare down a Voth envoy across the negotiating table over whether or not an unaligned Delta Quadrant minor polity would benefit from access to Federation medical technology?
Actually, I personally would like one or two missions like the second one, I think. But I am definitely in the minority on this viewpoint. A lot of STO Captains seem to prefer gunboat diplomacy. Go and look how many negative comments are left in Foundry reviews whenever someone tries to fashion UGC which includes trying to negotiate instead of acquiring a target lock as quickly as possible. How many of us simply clicky clicky our way through the talky parts to get to the shooty parts? When was the last time anyone saw someone post a thread here bragging about how good his/her Science Department was at finding anomalies and acquiring new information?
"Saddle up. Lock and load." - Data, ST:Insurrection
The above is really all one needs to know about diplomacy in STO as it currently is. I'm not complaining here.
Just pointing it out. Ka' diith! 'What is, is.'
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
I'm too of the opinion. If it's trying to use something that can destroy warp travel over entire quadrants, i'm going to shoot first and ask questions later.
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Show, Don't Tell. Let us see the negotiations go bad. Don't just have them get handwaved with one forgettable line as having gone bad offsreen.
The line was "We were waylaid by the Voth." So yeah, the Voth took the shoot-on-sight approach. Apparently the Voth simply aren't interested in talking.
The line was "We were waylaid by the Voth." So yeah, the Voth took the shoot-on-sight approach. Apparently the Voth simply aren't interested in talking.
Still falls under "Show, Don't Tell".
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I can only guess, if the UFP invented an alternative propulsionsystem, to the warp-drive engine. The whole Omega directive would be dropped like a hot potatoe. Then the alliance would perhaps be less likely to practise their battleskills on the Voth.
I.e. If the Voths would have some kind of civil war/revolution, that would bring down their doctrine, ofc.
Regarding a post i read previously, how in warfare the tactic of wounding a soldier, over killing them, is true: This is infact, sort of, 'accepted', and implemented in the geneva convention. Hence, all sides are quite happy about using full metal jacket ammunition, instead of 'normal hunting amunition' (lead-tipped). - The former won't create as bad wounds(!) as lead tipped or hollow points. With full metal jackets, the victim will live longer(!) and more resources are being used on keeping them alive. Victory by attrition is nasty, but a strategic part of a unsuccessful/prolonged war.
With season 9; i really do wonder how Cryptic intend to implement a story where The alliance and Voth get together to fight their, presumably common enemy.
Its not like Cryptic can just remove all of season 8, because it cannot fit; Having us going fullscale war against Voth in the sphere in some instances, then fly over to season 9 instances and fight alongside the same specie. That is unheard of, even on our planets history. It would just not align with the old saying; 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'. In this case it would need an addendum... ...'The enemy of my enemy is my enemy that I will take potshots at, because he is to dumb to shoot back, i think'.
In addition to the whole "never ask questions" attitude especially our own characters present, it really grinds my gears that the game has such a comically overacted 1987's US army spoof militarism especially in the new Voth content. That champions online heel-click salute? When did anyone in Starfleet ever salute in such a Team Fortress 2 "SIR YES SIR KILL KILL!" kind of way? (Hint: No one did salute. Ever. Starfleet doesn't do that.)
There's a lot of stuff, minor and major, just "wrong" with the portrayal of Star Trek factions in this game.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
History tells us that all governments and military organizations are morally bankrupt and as time goes on both organizations stop trying to hide it because they've managed to convince themselves, and the public they claim to serve, that wrong is actually right... As long as you win.
There's nothing that says the Federation is immune to this aside from Roddenberry telling fans this in the 70s. And going by the number of evil ambassadors and admirals, it's more likely that the only people who haven't picked up this truth are the heroes of the franchise.
You are not Picard. That is why your character will phaser down a bar full of civilians without question. Your character is convinced that their wrongs are rights because they're in the Federation and in always-right Starfleet.
You are ignoring basic facts about not only war, but how things work even on our fair little planet here...
i think your also ignoring that saying about truth is the first casualty in war. and in any war, convention or no, it will be ignored and if you really want an argument about it? the bombing of nakasaki and hiroshima wasnt exactly humanities crowning achievement and that failure of the league of nations. we humans are a cruel and destructive race that looks out for ourselves and ourselves alone, even today you got suicide bombings in a russian train station, UAV drone attacks in afghanistan and the Syrian conflict.
the idea of the federation following their own set of rules, considering reckless janeway as an example of one of the "finest" starfleet captains in the federation who killed trillions to make it home, or Archer for sparking and getting into a civil war between the xindi for a superweapon. How about Sisko starting a war with the dominion and the various episodes that showed feds and klingons fighting each other brutally and without mercy and feds vs dominion to salvage a communication station on some nameless rock.
you are barking up the wrong tree for the morale viewpoint.
so as far as the Cryptic star trek effort, nothing new there.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Anyway, I'm hoping like hell they revamp the Federation missions in a future expansion because there's no way to look at right now except as the Federation being the "bad guy" faction.
Anyway, I'm hoping like hell they revamp the Federation missions in a future expansion because there's no way to look at right now except as the Federation being the "bad guy" faction.
I agree. The state of the fed today is terrible. They aren't even in a position to be the, often popular, anti-hero. You know, the 'Han Solo'-, or 'Boba Fett'-effect.
Now, they are just vicious with an 'There is only war'-mentality. No wonder they have teamed up with both Klingons, Orions, Gorns, Nausicaan pirates, Letheans, Romulans, Remans and whatnot. :rolleyes:
The human viral effect is indeed making its footprints in space.
Archer committed the Valakian to extinction by not giving them a warp drive.
The Federation did not exist during Archer's merry romp throughout the galaxy. So using him as an example of why the Federation is TEH DEBBIL would be incorrect.
My favorite was when me and my murderous crew, executed everybody on that trading station, while conducting a false "safety inspection". A brilliant piece of work.
If makes you feel better, you can wait until they shoot at you first. Which they will do when you get close enough to a group, for spoiling their illegal ideas of "fun". And the "safety inspection" was an Odo-style tactic to get cooperation from a crooked Ferengi to help stop a greater menace.
There was really nothing "non-trek" about that mission.
In addition to the whole "never ask questions" attitude especially our own characters present, it really grinds my gears that the game has such a comically overacted 1987's US army spoof militarism especially in the new Voth content. That champions online heel-click salute? When did anyone in Starfleet ever salute in such a Team Fortress 2 "SIR YES SIR KILL KILL!" kind of way? (Hint: No one did salute. Ever. Starfleet doesn't do that.)
There's a lot of stuff, minor and major, just "wrong" with the portrayal of Star Trek factions in this game.
Starfleet was "militarized" long before the moonbat silliness of the first two seasons of TNG. Starfleet always had strong military elements and traditions, especially during Harve Bennett's run at the helm. And from what I've seen, the game doesn't take the military "feel" as far as Bennett did.
As for those that try to rationalize the bulls*** "we no ah-mee" claims with what is actually shown, paramilitary or police forces don't typically run around with enough firepower to boil planets.
Starfleet is the military AND exploratory arm of the United Federation of Planets. Much in the same way modern navies also engage in humanitarian missions, diplomacy, and research, in addition to defense of the homeland and securing overseas interests.
Oh, and by the way, did you know that the "we don't have a military because we've evolved beyond that" Federation actually has a wet navy? The Federation Naval Patrol was going to be Tom Paris's career choice before his Old Man (a Starfleet admiral) pressured him to join Starfleet. We saw how that worked out for Ol' Tom. LOL.
For a moment I thought I was in the Old Republic forums.
The reason for that is that for a long time now there's been at least one (and often several) group-hug exercises involving moral relativists congratulating themselves for deciding the Jedi/Republic are "the real bad guys" and that the Sith/Empire are the "real good guys because muh freedum". Of course there they have to do some very serious cognitive dissonance, such as finding a voluntary leave-if-you-can't-handle-it order of monastics "too oppressive" and then equating it or making it worse to the outright slavery and genocide the Sith do on a regular basis.
Here, looks like the flavor is "the Federation is a bummer because there's a vague sense of post-scarcity egalitarianism and that's totally librul and lame so let's take the stuff grimdark enough in DS9 and run wild with it!"
Summary: you find in Trek what you want to find in it. If you want to selectively ignore the rest, the social commentary, the sense of hope, the idea of "we could be better people" and just wallow in the metephorical mud because it's edgier to cling to that "In the Pale Moonlight" episode forever, be my guest I suppose.
It's not so-called "moral relativism" for a franchise to take a darker and realistic turn. And just because the Federation takes a harder approach to "foreign policy" doesn't make it evil or "grimdark". People seem to forget that Starfleet still helps those in need in STO. In fact, I would argue that the Federation is more egalitarian, and true to the ideals they pay lip service to, in the game than on-screen.
All one has to do is look at the people the Federation has turned their backs on during the Next Generation era to understand my point. A far cry from when Starfleet captains had the authority to do the right thing in Kirk's time. And the "evolution" of General Order One from a regulation to protect developing cultures to "thou shall not butt in" is another example. Star Trek Online simply goes back to the old way of looking at things. Ideals and principles are nothing but hot air if one doesn't make an effort to practice what they preach.
I agree wholeheartedly! In all of the best Science Fiction I've read or watched over the years, including some episodes of ST:TOS, the shining examples were those that gave me hope of a future where humanity would have outgrown primitive concepts such as Government and Religion. A future where we would have at least begun to grow beyond the barbaric fears and paranoia that stem from our animal origins. The original Vulcans were excellent examples of many of these ideals realized as were most of the humans in ST:TOS.
I still have hopes for that future. As you can see from many of the responses here... we ain't there, yet! ... but that don't mean we won't get there!
The Science Fiction author L. Neil Smith believes we are at the beginning of the end of the Age of Authority... I can't wait!
Spoken like a true anarchist. :rolleyes:
Here's a newsflash: Humanity will never "outgrow" governments or religion. Man is a social animal, and social groups require structure. Spirituality and leadership are critical cornerstones of any kind of viable social structure. This has been proven by the fact that the same basic building blocks have existed, and proven to work, since prehistory. Anything else is just a pipe dream. If such idealism had any basis in reality, such institutions would have died out long ago.
Anyway, I'm hoping like hell they revamp the Federation missions in a future expansion because there's no way to look at right now except as the Federation being the "bad guy" faction.
There is no real evidence to support this. The Federation in the game is far from evil.
If it is said that the Voth "waylaid" allied efforts to destroy the Omega Particles, then that's what happened. You can either choose to ignore or accept it in the story you are weaving for your character. But it's still part of the official backstory of the Sphere.
However, it would have been cool to at least get some cutscenes in the background info behind the Joint Command and current situation.
Since you're the Junior Debating Club member of this thread, how about you do the work for me?
Man is a social animal, and social groups require structure.
Actually, it's a pack animal. Like dogs. We're responding to the alphas. Silly biology. Thankfully, we're a species that has the ability to beyond our biology and can overturn that structure as needed.
Archer committed the Valakian to extinction by not giving them a warp drive.
No Archer and Phlox condemned them to death by not giving them the cure to the disease that Phlox already had created, it was only out of some sense of Phlox's "morals" that they did so.
Comments
In fact, it's an ongoing-if-subtle plot point that after Wolf 359 (and the Dominion War), the Federation has been increasingly moving away from answering problems with diplomacy first, shooting later. It's simply come to it's logical conclusion in STO imo
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
The reason for that is that for a long time now there's been at least one (and often several) group-hug exercises involving moral relativists congratulating themselves for deciding the Jedi/Republic are "the real bad guys" and that the Sith/Empire are the "real good guys because muh freedum". Of course there they have to do some very serious cognitive dissonance, such as finding a voluntary leave-if-you-can't-handle-it order of monastics "too oppressive" and then equating it or making it worse to the outright slavery and genocide the Sith do on a regular basis.
Here, looks like the flavor is "the Federation is a bummer because there's a vague sense of post-scarcity egalitarianism and that's totally librul and lame so let's take the stuff grimdark enough in DS9 and run wild with it!"
Summary: you find in Trek what you want to find in it. If you want to selectively ignore the rest, the social commentary, the sense of hope, the idea of "we could be better people" and just wallow in the metephorical mud because it's edgier to cling to that "In the Pale Moonlight" episode forever, be my guest I suppose.
The Voyager episode did state that the effect was cumulative - when they discovered that there wasn't one but thousands of molecules they no longer had the fallback option of letting the reaction occur and fleeing ahead of the shockwave - it wouldn't just destroy subspace over a sector like the Federation or Borg's failed experiments, but a large portion of the quadrant.
And the number was actually about 0.25 times over. At our peak we still had less than 12 gigatons of nuclear weapons, the majority of which was tied up in ridiculous low-yield strategic weapons weapons like the Davy Crockett, which would not be used in a full scale exchange, and if actually used would cause more friendly fire damage than anything. The actual amount of depopulation expected in a nuclear war is almost disappointing after reading the rhetoric against it.
And they were being used to deter all of the largest nations and most of the powerful small nations in the world - nations which cumulatively with their allies and holdings accounted for about two thirds of the planet's land area, with the other third by and large unlikely to be targeted (aside from a few scattered bases or ships belonging to the involved powers in those areas).
The Voth's plan is almost the exact opposite: They're basically threatening to take the toys and go home, and if anybody doesn't want to play by their rules then nobody gets to play again. Ever.
What about all those times leveling up you were swooping into some unsuspecting sector with guns and phasers ready and charged to blow up the first ship in sight? There's a lot wrong with the feds, by the sphere is the least of it's worries as far as ethics are concerned.
We started arming medics shortly after WW2 due to being in conflicts with opposing factions which did not recognize the Geneva convention. It started with Korea, as NK military personnel would target unarmed military chaplains and medics. So we started arming them.
Kirk??? Kirk threw the prime directive away like yesterdays moldy sandwich on many occasions, sometimes non-interference with other cultures is not possible thus standing order 24 (section 33) and in line with the same over riding or higher responsibility to sentient life as a whole. The Omega protocol was written under the same reasoning (to preserve warp travel) Not to mention the aggressive nature of the Voth species ( as documented by VOY ) We knew what to expect plus the Romulans already stepped into that bear trap...
While we're at it, let me enlighten you all about how irrelevant a thing like the Geneva Convention really is. The only reason two warring factions would adhere to such a set of rules is for fear of outside involvement.
And since everyone is already ganging up on the Voth anyway, who cares about silly rules. Kill them all and take their stuff. That's what a war is all about.
as far as war goes a wounded enemy is better than a dead enemy. the dead enemy is just that dead and his trench mates are free to fight. a wounded enemy also pulls others off the line to aid him. so one gut shot enemy can actually remove 2 or more from the battle instead of just 1.
You do realize KIRK WROTE THE OMEGA DIRECTIVE. Well atleast the first draft of it.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Oh, I've been waiting for somebody to try that argument.
No, that was decided by another video game that is not considered STO canon, based on a throwaway line from "The Omega Directive" that dated it to contemporary with Kirk's captaincy. Not the same thing.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Considering shatner reprised his voice, whether or not it's "cannon" doesn't mean that Kirk wouldn't do it.
Just sayin.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Show, Don't Tell. Let us see the negotiations go bad. Don't just have them get handwaved with one forgettable line as having gone bad offsreen.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Would it make the game more enjoyable if the Feds, the Klinks, and the Rommies were facing an enemy which only threatened their trade access to the Delta Quadrant? Nope.
Would it make the game more enjoyable if you as a Starfleet Captain were forced to stare down a Voth envoy across the negotiating table over whether or not an unaligned Delta Quadrant minor polity would benefit from access to Federation medical technology?
Actually, I personally would like one or two missions like the second one, I think. But I am definitely in the minority on this viewpoint. A lot of STO Captains seem to prefer gunboat diplomacy. Go and look how many negative comments are left in Foundry reviews whenever someone tries to fashion UGC which includes trying to negotiate instead of acquiring a target lock as quickly as possible. How many of us simply clicky clicky our way through the talky parts to get to the shooty parts? When was the last time anyone saw someone post a thread here bragging about how good his/her Science Department was at finding anomalies and acquiring new information?
"Saddle up. Lock and load." - Data, ST:Insurrection
The above is really all one needs to know about diplomacy in STO as it currently is. I'm not complaining here.
Just pointing it out. Ka' diith! 'What is, is.'
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
My character Tsin'xing
Still falls under "Show, Don't Tell".
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Captain! The shields are down! And worse... The credit limit is dry!
I can only guess, if the UFP invented an alternative propulsionsystem, to the warp-drive engine. The whole Omega directive would be dropped like a hot potatoe. Then the alliance would perhaps be less likely to practise their battleskills on the Voth.
I.e. If the Voths would have some kind of civil war/revolution, that would bring down their doctrine, ofc.
Regarding a post i read previously, how in warfare the tactic of wounding a soldier, over killing them, is true: This is infact, sort of, 'accepted', and implemented in the geneva convention. Hence, all sides are quite happy about using full metal jacket ammunition, instead of 'normal hunting amunition' (lead-tipped). - The former won't create as bad wounds(!) as lead tipped or hollow points. With full metal jackets, the victim will live longer(!) and more resources are being used on keeping them alive. Victory by attrition is nasty, but a strategic part of a unsuccessful/prolonged war.
With season 9; i really do wonder how Cryptic intend to implement a story where The alliance and Voth get together to fight their, presumably common enemy.
Its not like Cryptic can just remove all of season 8, because it cannot fit; Having us going fullscale war against Voth in the sphere in some instances, then fly over to season 9 instances and fight alongside the same specie. That is unheard of, even on our planets history. It would just not align with the old saying; 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'. In this case it would need an addendum... ...'The enemy of my enemy is my enemy that I will take potshots at, because he is to dumb to shoot back, i think'.
There's a lot of stuff, minor and major, just "wrong" with the portrayal of Star Trek factions in this game.
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There's nothing that says the Federation is immune to this aside from Roddenberry telling fans this in the 70s. And going by the number of evil ambassadors and admirals, it's more likely that the only people who haven't picked up this truth are the heroes of the franchise.
You are not Picard. That is why your character will phaser down a bar full of civilians without question. Your character is convinced that their wrongs are rights because they're in the Federation and in always-right Starfleet.
i think your also ignoring that saying about truth is the first casualty in war. and in any war, convention or no, it will be ignored and if you really want an argument about it? the bombing of nakasaki and hiroshima wasnt exactly humanities crowning achievement and that failure of the league of nations. we humans are a cruel and destructive race that looks out for ourselves and ourselves alone, even today you got suicide bombings in a russian train station, UAV drone attacks in afghanistan and the Syrian conflict.
the idea of the federation following their own set of rules, considering reckless janeway as an example of one of the "finest" starfleet captains in the federation who killed trillions to make it home, or Archer for sparking and getting into a civil war between the xindi for a superweapon. How about Sisko starting a war with the dominion and the various episodes that showed feds and klingons fighting each other brutally and without mercy and feds vs dominion to salvage a communication station on some nameless rock.
you are barking up the wrong tree for the morale viewpoint.
so as far as the Cryptic star trek effort, nothing new there.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I agree. The state of the fed today is terrible. They aren't even in a position to be the, often popular, anti-hero. You know, the 'Han Solo'-, or 'Boba Fett'-effect.
Now, they are just vicious with an 'There is only war'-mentality. No wonder they have teamed up with both Klingons, Orions, Gorns, Nausicaan pirates, Letheans, Romulans, Remans and whatnot. :rolleyes:
The human viral effect is indeed making its footprints in space.
@masternecroman
The Federation did not exist during Archer's merry romp throughout the galaxy. So using him as an example of why the Federation is TEH DEBBIL would be incorrect.
@capnkirk4
If makes you feel better, you can wait until they shoot at you first. Which they will do when you get close enough to a group, for spoiling their illegal ideas of "fun". And the "safety inspection" was an Odo-style tactic to get cooperation from a crooked Ferengi to help stop a greater menace.
There was really nothing "non-trek" about that mission.
@angrytarg
Starfleet was "militarized" long before the moonbat silliness of the first two seasons of TNG. Starfleet always had strong military elements and traditions, especially during Harve Bennett's run at the helm. And from what I've seen, the game doesn't take the military "feel" as far as Bennett did.
As for those that try to rationalize the bulls*** "we no ah-mee" claims with what is actually shown, paramilitary or police forces don't typically run around with enough firepower to boil planets.
Starfleet is the military AND exploratory arm of the United Federation of Planets. Much in the same way modern navies also engage in humanitarian missions, diplomacy, and research, in addition to defense of the homeland and securing overseas interests.
Oh, and by the way, did you know that the "we don't have a military because we've evolved beyond that" Federation actually has a wet navy? The Federation Naval Patrol was going to be Tom Paris's career choice before his Old Man (a Starfleet admiral) pressured him to join Starfleet. We saw how that worked out for Ol' Tom. LOL.
@amalefactor
It's not so-called "moral relativism" for a franchise to take a darker and realistic turn. And just because the Federation takes a harder approach to "foreign policy" doesn't make it evil or "grimdark". People seem to forget that Starfleet still helps those in need in STO. In fact, I would argue that the Federation is more egalitarian, and true to the ideals they pay lip service to, in the game than on-screen.
All one has to do is look at the people the Federation has turned their backs on during the Next Generation era to understand my point. A far cry from when Starfleet captains had the authority to do the right thing in Kirk's time. And the "evolution" of General Order One from a regulation to protect developing cultures to "thou shall not butt in" is another example. Star Trek Online simply goes back to the old way of looking at things. Ideals and principles are nothing but hot air if one doesn't make an effort to practice what they preach.
@lomax6996
Spoken like a true anarchist. :rolleyes:
Here's a newsflash: Humanity will never "outgrow" governments or religion. Man is a social animal, and social groups require structure. Spirituality and leadership are critical cornerstones of any kind of viable social structure. This has been proven by the fact that the same basic building blocks have existed, and proven to work, since prehistory. Anything else is just a pipe dream. If such idealism had any basis in reality, such institutions would have died out long ago.
@twg042370
There is no real evidence to support this. The Federation in the game is far from evil.
@starswordc
It doesn't necessarily have to work that way.
If it is said that the Voth "waylaid" allied efforts to destroy the Omega Particles, then that's what happened. You can either choose to ignore or accept it in the story you are weaving for your character. But it's still part of the official backstory of the Sphere.
However, it would have been cool to at least get some cutscenes in the background info behind the Joint Command and current situation.
Since you're the Junior Debating Club member of this thread, how about you do the work for me?
Actually, it's a pack animal. Like dogs. We're responding to the alphas. Silly biology. Thankfully, we're a species that has the ability to beyond our biology and can overturn that structure as needed.
No Archer and Phlox condemned them to death by not giving them the cure to the disease that Phlox already had created, it was only out of some sense of Phlox's "morals" that they did so.