Memory Alpha actually is quite clear that the Gorn where technologicaly on par with the Humans up until the 23rd century and even surpassed them in certain areas like shield technology and even the speed of their ships.
Your views of Gorn and even Klingons are very biased and short sighted. I have no doubts the Gorn fans who have more knowledge than us would have no issue proving you wrong.
As for the Klingons, Ive read the novels and the FASA books plus other media and while violent and brusque they are hardly lacking in the sciences or engineering fields.
As Kirk himself once said, " Barbarians do not have Star Empires"
So your angry tirade against the KDF in STo, while amusing to watch a fan fall to emotions, is notngoing to change my mind ormcause me to lose one bit of happiness over our recent attention from the Devs.
But please feel free to keep trolling. Its entertaining. Some of us are even making it into drinking game
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
Memory Alpha only includes canon information regarding the Gorn, and that's fairly little. Even then, it states in the physical characteristics section that the Gorn are at least on par with humans in regards to intelligence. It also gives lie to your statement that Gorn are unintelligent, non-science appreciating brutes that simply hit machinery to try getting it to work.
Most of that comes from novels, and I would suggest not giving the references to video games much credence as video games are even more apocryphal than novels and often don't bother with continuity. About the Gorn specifically, they seem to be made up of different castes, including a 'soldier' caste that probably *would* behave as you describe. But they're not intended to be the scientists or engineers, and using them to gauge all Gorn would be like taking a MACO and using the MACO to define all of the Federation.
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
No no no, he's a Federation fanboy, and doesn't argue for stripping the Federation of what edges it has. That would mean eliminating all but one escort type, and making THAT escort merely average in performance. Can you imagine the amount of Federation butthurt that would come from that?
Maybe then they'd have a taste of what it's like trying to work without a solid science ship line and a sub-par escort line, supplemented by 'raiders' that can be destroyed by a strong sneeze.
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
Well Gorn ARE the sci backbone of the KDF presently in the STO universe.
They can arguably still be considered atleast on par with Federation if not more considering the fact that Gorn had achieved interstellar propulsion technology as early as 500,000 BC!! (TOS comic: "Dying of the Light") and were shown to have faster ships with very good shields that could take multiple photon torpedo hits. Their sensor tech was inferior to Fed ones though (TOS "Arena"). So in a way you could say the Gorn were better at offensive sciences while fed was better at life/non-offensive sciences.
But you know what the kicker is, pre-STO, the Gorn were actually sorta allied with the Feds!
Also If the Arena episode was not the first contact with Gorn, we would have actually seen Gorn instead of the Andorians in the Enterprise episode "The Andorian Incident". That would have been awesome! But unfortunately it didnt happen as it would break continuity
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Eh, that COULD be said, but it's a little too far off the track, and based on the books I've read (which are at best "soft" canon), while the Klin don't prize scientific knowledge anywhere near as much as martial prowess, technicians engineers, and the other "techie-types" CAN gain very high positions within the Klin world. They just have to fight harder to get it.
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game, even in the books. But an allied part of the KDF, wouldn't necessarily be hit by that restrictions. Granted, Gorn shouldn't be the source of a sci ship, hell, their philosophy is "If it's not working, hit it with a hammer. If it still doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway." Hardly a society that prizes scientific knowledge very highly. Nauusicaans, not sure about, know next to nothing about them, so can't say one way or the other. Orions now, they prize anything and everything. So THEY would be a good source, to provide the KDF with a new sci ship. Also, you could also say, Klin culture has moved forward a little, and since their war with the Feds have pretty much stalemated (something they barely will admit even in private, they want to boast they're winning), but they have seen the effectiveness of sci ships in combat, and wish to gain that capability for themselves.
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
The big question is what you define as a "true science ship".
Because "science" does not actually mean "peaceful exploration".
We've seen this in the "Enterprise" era Raptor, which was first and foremost a scout.
The recent "Hayne's Owner's Workshop Manual" explains that unlike the Birds of Prey of its era it was less heavily armed and crewed and used as a long-range ship to gather intelligence on other races.
Personally I'd have preferred them in such a role in STO as well, since the Raptors in this game are based on the Raptor from the shows.
RL scouts are ships that gather intelligence on the other side and also provide electronic warfare support in combat.
And contrary to popular belief those don't exist exclusively as converted travlers like "The Hunt for Red October" but they also exist as ships pupose-built for militaries, which are not exactly known to do scientifice exploration.
Interestingly enough soft-canon materials specifically do give the Klingons a ship for scientific purposes. In the FASA materials they have the D-9 for example.
Another recent example from the world of soft-canon that is not totally outdated and faulty (as in not even the timeline fits) like the FASA material is the Qang (Chancellor) class from the recent IKS Gorkon novel series.
The ship class is essentially an enlarged Vor'cha with a reduced armament (12 instead of 18 disrutors) and the most advanced sensors the Klingons have at the time.
The Gorkon and her crew beat the Enterprise-E and Data at analysing and devising a countermeasure for a telepathic energy wave in "The Brave and the Bold", a novel two-parter where the two ships team up as equal partners.
The 12 ships of that class are sent after at the end of the Dominion War (they were not finished in time to participate) on a mission of exploration.
They map stars and worlds to colonize, exploit and and conquer.
Which also begs the question: if the Klingons supposedly never had ships for such a purpose, how did they found colonies, find exploitable resources and build an Empire?
Stumbling blindly into space and hoping to find worlds to settle and asteroids and nebulae to use for raw materials is dangerous, stupid and (given the odds) also futile.
There's also a Klingon saying "A sharp knife is nothing without a sharp eye."[DS9:"Blood Oath"] so not having ships with good eyes (=sensors) goes against their own philosophy.
As far as the Gorn a concerned, I've got the materials from FASA and from ADB and I've yet to find anything remotely resembling your "hit it with a hammer" approach in any of them. Can you provide a source that goes beyond "it's in there"?
On the contrary in canon Trek they were advanced enough to remotely turn Spock's tricorder into a bomb within a matter of minutes while staying out of sight.
Even Spock called it "very ingenious".
Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
Well, as much as I love and enjoy ST novels myself, I'm sorry to inform you that all of your "sources" mentioned here are actually duds. Not a single one of these is, nor can be treated as canon - therefore making the information within them irrelevant.
That said, can we now please stop the pissing contest here and earlynighthawk - can you please stop trying to deter the point of the thread and get back on the Mogh class battlecruiser and the topic the OP had in mind - the assumed need for purchases that would encourage more KDF ship releases in the future?
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
"Starfleet is a non-military organization! We are dedicated to peaceful exploration! Here let me show you my new battlecruiser!"
Biggest hypocrites in the galaxy. On thing I really like about the KDF is that they are honest about their motives. Yes we're going to subjugate you, and we're going to TELL you that.
"Starfleet is a non-military organization! We are dedicated to peachful exploration! Here let me show you my new battlecruiser!"
Biggest hypocrites in the galaxy. On thing I really like about the KDF is that they are honest about their motives. Yes we're going to subjugate you, and we're going to TELL you that.
Gamers can't be bothered to find the solution to not slaughter everything in your way. So devs of Star Trek Online had to make some changes to Starfleet.
As for the Klingons, Ive read the novels and the FASA books plus other media and while violent and brusque they are hardly lacking in the sciences or engineering fields.
I always figured Klingon technology would be a lot like Soviet technology: Efficient, robust, and inexpensive. This is why Klingon ships have a much longer service life compared to their Federation counterparts, just like the AK. This should be no surprise, the Klingons were originally the Soviet Union in Space!
I always figured Klingon technology would be a lot like Soviet technology: Efficient, robust, and inexpensive. This is why Klingon ships have a much longer service life compared to their Federation counterparts, just like the AK. This should be no surprise, the Klingons were originally the Soviet Union in Space!
I agree and it does lend itself well to what we know of the Klingon Empire.
I don't know if you're faction-neutral, or have a faction specific bias. Can't tell from the flavour of the posts you're making, that I've seen. What I CAN tell, is that you're at least seeming to try to keep things reasonable, and have a discussion, not crying about stuff.
.
I do tend to lean towards federation , since that's what my main is , but I'm a big believer in fair play in MMO's , if one side gets a new toy , the opposite one should get one at the same time , doesn't have to be the same toy , or even remotely similar , but the attention is sometimes what matters over the actual toy itself.
The old , ' oh only so many people play klingons so they don't get as much attention ' drivel has to stop.
As for the Mogh , I hope it sells well , I really do. Could convince Cryptic to devote more resources to the KDF
Agreed. Although I don't demand that people lose their jobs when I don't like how something looks.
Lol, Ok, I'll give you that one. And I'm the same, unless someone's been consistently doing things wrong, over & over ad nauseum, I'm generally pretty easy going.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I do tend to lean towards federation , since that's what my main is , but I'm a big believer in fair play in MMO's , if one side gets a new toy , the opposite one should get one at the same time , doesn't have to be the same toy , or even remotely similar , but the attention is sometimes what matters over the actual toy itself.
The old , ' oh only so many people play klingons so they don't get as much attention ' drivel has to stop.
As for the Mogh , I hope it sells well , I really do. Could convince Cryptic to devote more resources to the KDF
I'm not necessarily, it has to be "equal", but I like, "It has to be well done". If one side's easier to make things for (whatever that thing IS), then likely that side will get more. But it'd be nice, if the side that's harder to make things for, get's highly polished, well done stuff. Unfortunately, as has been noticed over & over, that's not what the Klin have been getting, only a few things have been that high quality.
So I can understand their resentment towards Cryptic & PWE. I just don't understand their resentment toards the other game players here. (Unless someone made me a dev behind my back, lol), then players like me, have nothing to do with what's developed, or in what order things are developed. All we can do, is comment on what is currently in existence. (Whether we like it, not like it. How it could be better, etc etc)
And that's why, even though I have no desire to get this new KDF ship, for a while (I still have tons o fun in my MU Vo'Quv, on my Alien, and my MU Vor'Cha in my 1st Orion gal, 2nd one isn't L50 yet) I flat out refuse to tell anyone else whether or not to get it. I feel it's that individual's decision, as to whether to purchase it. It's their time and/or money, so they have the right to choose however they wish. All I can say is what I plan on doing. And then leave it at that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I always figured Klingon technology would be a lot like Soviet technology: Efficient, robust, and inexpensive. This is why Klingon ships have a much longer service life compared to their Federation counterparts, just like the AK. This should be no surprise, the Klingons were originally the Soviet Union in Space!
I see more elements that would link klingons to the japanese samurai, rather than the Soviet Union.
Those motifs were built into the Klingon culture during the TNG era. In TOS they were an analogue of the Soviet Union.
Oh right; i watched klingons as a whole. In that case, in retrospect, the organians appear to me as what would've remained after a nuclear war: pure spirits.
Well the stats are out and it is just as expected - still a badass looking ship!! Any kdf player should get it even if it's not 100% their cup of tea. My hopes are that it will sell well and cryptic will continue with more - specifically cryptic should take note of all the players that have commented on getting a real Klingon sci ship!!:)
The console sounds like it might be slightly more useful than the fed version. Mines have a lot more shield bleed through don't they? Plus they act like mini turrets for a bit.
Comments
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
Regarding your ignorant statements about the Gorn: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gorn
Memory Alpha only includes canon information regarding the Gorn, and that's fairly little. Even then, it states in the physical characteristics section that the Gorn are at least on par with humans in regards to intelligence. It also gives lie to your statement that Gorn are unintelligent, non-science appreciating brutes that simply hit machinery to try getting it to work.
As for non-canon: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Gorn
Most of that comes from novels, and I would suggest not giving the references to video games much credence as video games are even more apocryphal than novels and often don't bother with continuity. About the Gorn specifically, they seem to be made up of different castes, including a 'soldier' caste that probably *would* behave as you describe. But they're not intended to be the scientists or engineers, and using them to gauge all Gorn would be like taking a MACO and using the MACO to define all of the Federation.
No no no, he's a Federation fanboy, and doesn't argue for stripping the Federation of what edges it has. That would mean eliminating all but one escort type, and making THAT escort merely average in performance. Can you imagine the amount of Federation butthurt that would come from that?
Maybe then they'd have a taste of what it's like trying to work without a solid science ship line and a sub-par escort line, supplemented by 'raiders' that can be destroyed by a strong sneeze.
They can arguably still be considered atleast on par with Federation if not more considering the fact that Gorn had achieved interstellar propulsion technology as early as 500,000 BC!! (TOS comic: "Dying of the Light") and were shown to have faster ships with very good shields that could take multiple photon torpedo hits. Their sensor tech was inferior to Fed ones though (TOS "Arena"). So in a way you could say the Gorn were better at offensive sciences while fed was better at life/non-offensive sciences.
But you know what the kicker is, pre-STO, the Gorn were actually sorta allied with the Feds!
Also If the Arena episode was not the first contact with Gorn, we would have actually seen Gorn instead of the Andorians in the Enterprise episode "The Andorian Incident". That would have been awesome! But unfortunately it didnt happen as it would break continuity
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
The big question is what you define as a "true science ship".
Because "science" does not actually mean "peaceful exploration".
We've seen this in the "Enterprise" era Raptor, which was first and foremost a scout.
The recent "Hayne's Owner's Workshop Manual" explains that unlike the Birds of Prey of its era it was less heavily armed and crewed and used as a long-range ship to gather intelligence on other races.
Personally I'd have preferred them in such a role in STO as well, since the Raptors in this game are based on the Raptor from the shows.
RL scouts are ships that gather intelligence on the other side and also provide electronic warfare support in combat.
And contrary to popular belief those don't exist exclusively as converted travlers like "The Hunt for Red October" but they also exist as ships pupose-built for militaries, which are not exactly known to do scientifice exploration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balzam_class_intelligence_ship
Interestingly enough soft-canon materials specifically do give the Klingons a ship for scientific purposes. In the FASA materials they have the D-9 for example.
Another recent example from the world of soft-canon that is not totally outdated and faulty (as in not even the timeline fits) like the FASA material is the Qang (Chancellor) class from the recent IKS Gorkon novel series.
The ship class is essentially an enlarged Vor'cha with a reduced armament (12 instead of 18 disrutors) and the most advanced sensors the Klingons have at the time.
The Gorkon and her crew beat the Enterprise-E and Data at analysing and devising a countermeasure for a telepathic energy wave in "The Brave and the Bold", a novel two-parter where the two ships team up as equal partners.
The 12 ships of that class are sent after at the end of the Dominion War (they were not finished in time to participate) on a mission of exploration.
They map stars and worlds to colonize, exploit and and conquer.
Which also begs the question: if the Klingons supposedly never had ships for such a purpose, how did they found colonies, find exploitable resources and build an Empire?
Stumbling blindly into space and hoping to find worlds to settle and asteroids and nebulae to use for raw materials is dangerous, stupid and (given the odds) also futile.
There's also a Klingon saying "A sharp knife is nothing without a sharp eye."[DS9:"Blood Oath"] so not having ships with good eyes (=sensors) goes against their own philosophy.
As far as the Gorn a concerned, I've got the materials from FASA and from ADB and I've yet to find anything remotely resembling your "hit it with a hammer" approach in any of them. Can you provide a source that goes beyond "it's in there"?
On the contrary in canon Trek they were advanced enough to remotely turn Spock's tricorder into a bomb within a matter of minutes while staying out of sight.
Even Spock called it "very ingenious".
Well, as much as I love and enjoy ST novels myself, I'm sorry to inform you that all of your "sources" mentioned here are actually duds. Not a single one of these is, nor can be treated as canon - therefore making the information within them irrelevant.
That said, can we now please stop the pissing contest here and earlynighthawk - can you please stop trying to deter the point of the thread and get back on the Mogh class battlecruiser and the topic the OP had in mind - the assumed need for purchases that would encourage more KDF ship releases in the future?
R.I.P
"Starfleet is a non-military organization! We are dedicated to peaceful exploration! Here let me show you my new battlecruiser!"
Biggest hypocrites in the galaxy. On thing I really like about the KDF is that they are honest about their motives. Yes we're going to subjugate you, and we're going to TELL you that.
Gamers can't be bothered to find the solution to not slaughter everything in your way. So devs of Star Trek Online had to make some changes to Starfleet.
*Stares at clock as the day slowly ticks away* Forget this! *Hops in cryochamber*
Roulette spins dial. Cues Buck Rogers opening music and monologe.
R.I.P
I agree and it does lend itself well to what we know of the Klingon Empire.
R.I.P
I do tend to lean towards federation , since that's what my main is , but I'm a big believer in fair play in MMO's , if one side gets a new toy , the opposite one should get one at the same time , doesn't have to be the same toy , or even remotely similar , but the attention is sometimes what matters over the actual toy itself.
The old , ' oh only so many people play klingons so they don't get as much attention ' drivel has to stop.
As for the Mogh , I hope it sells well , I really do. Could convince Cryptic to devote more resources to the KDF
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
To Crush your enemies, See them driven before you and Hear their lamentations from Grethor!
R.I.P
What is a disruptor compared to the hand that fires it?
I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
Lol, Ok, I'll give you that one. And I'm the same, unless someone's been consistently doing things wrong, over & over ad nauseum, I'm generally pretty easy going.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I'm not necessarily, it has to be "equal", but I like, "It has to be well done". If one side's easier to make things for (whatever that thing IS), then likely that side will get more. But it'd be nice, if the side that's harder to make things for, get's highly polished, well done stuff. Unfortunately, as has been noticed over & over, that's not what the Klin have been getting, only a few things have been that high quality.
So I can understand their resentment towards Cryptic & PWE. I just don't understand their resentment toards the other game players here. (Unless someone made me a dev behind my back, lol), then players like me, have nothing to do with what's developed, or in what order things are developed. All we can do, is comment on what is currently in existence. (Whether we like it, not like it. How it could be better, etc etc)
And that's why, even though I have no desire to get this new KDF ship, for a while (I still have tons o fun in my MU Vo'Quv, on my Alien, and my MU Vor'Cha in my 1st Orion gal, 2nd one isn't L50 yet) I flat out refuse to tell anyone else whether or not to get it. I feel it's that individual's decision, as to whether to purchase it. It's their time and/or money, so they have the right to choose however they wish. All I can say is what I plan on doing. And then leave it at that.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
classic. gave me chill bumps.
R.I.P
Golden Disruptor Pistol, guaranteed to make you a bada$$. No matter the hand.
I see more elements that would link klingons to the japanese samurai, rather than the Soviet Union.
In TOS the klingon represented the Soviets as to mirror the cold war.
R.I.P
Those motifs were built into the Klingon culture during the TNG era. In TOS they were an analogue of the Soviet Union.
Oh right; i watched klingons as a whole. In that case, in retrospect, the organians appear to me as what would've remained after a nuclear war: pure spirits.
Klingon Honor Guard Pulsewave. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every fed in the room, accept no substitutes.