Well to be fair , two years between ships is a bit harsh ...
I imagine the outcry on the federation side of things would be exactly the same if the situation was reversed
Well, if we had "unique" stuff, that was extremely powerful, I wouldn't. I might WISH there were more stuff, coming out more often, but I wouldn't be unhappy, or actively mad, if it didn't Sheesh. And if a faction shares a piece of equipment, I might be PERSONALLY like, it sucks, but publicly I'd be like, "Eh, I just don't plan on using it. I wouldn't be screaming "Oh that's not fair", over & over.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Well everyone's different , and doesn't necessarily share the same opinion
It is my personal opinion that the KDF ( and by extension Romulan ) fleets should have just as much diversity in ships as the Federation currently does, not everyone may agree , but that's the great thing about opinions , you don't have to.
Alot of your post, ties into another post I made, a few days ago. IE KDF gives up a console to share, and it's cried about. Fed's share a console, KDF are like, "Eh it's not even worth using". So tell me, who got screwed if the KDF has such superior equipment to begin with?
Pretty sure KDF got screwed because Feds got what little we had on top of everything else. I would expect Klingons to have better battle consoles because that is what the faction is about. You've kept your much better science edge but took our combat edge(battle cruisers, carriers, combat consoles).
Your post proves my point. Even with all the dev attention Feds get they still cried for the few things that the kdf had. It's like a rich guy robbing a poor man.
Just have to say, "Huh?"
Not really getting the reference.
Then again, maybe having a dungeon to throw people in wouldn't be such a bad idea.......
It is a reference to letting trolls out of the dungeons to rant in this thread. I should think in this gaming community that reference would be obvious to the most casual observer given the Fed whiner fan boy nature of your self entitlement post.
This thread is about encouraging those who play KDF to support buying a ship in hope that making this one profitable. The Bortasqu was a failed venture and some devs have stated the reason more isn't done for KDF is lack of sales. You then come in with a rant against KDF parity when you could have just kept your bias to yourself.
This thread was positive until your post. Your post is just as self entitled as what you over broadly paint the KDF community as when each and every one of us regardless of preferred faction should be standing up for parity for everyone's gaming experience.
I do not say this to offend you, but A little humility and charity on you part would be helpful.
Clear enough now?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Well everyone's different , and doesn't necessarily share the same opinion
It is my personal opinion that the KDF ( and by extension Romulan ) fleets should have just as much diversity in ships as the Federation currently does, not everyone may agree , but that's the great thing about opinions , you don't have to.
I don't know if you're faction-neutral, or have a faction specific bias. Can't tell from the flavour of the posts you're making, that I've seen. What I CAN tell, is that you're at least seeming to try to keep things reasonable, and have a discussion, not crying about stuff.
In response to your last post though, I could agree with that. But the Feds (and even the Rihan), in the areas THEY are weak in, should be able to have more variety as well.
Example: Carriers. KDF, as far as I know, the Vo'Quv is a free ship. The Caitian Atrox is a pay ship. (And I don't think the Rihan get a faction specific carrier as of yet). ANd the two I listed are the only two main carriers (aside from fleet & mirror versions, as applicable) ie, having 2 hangar slots, that I know of in common use. But I believe there is another 1-2 KDF full carriers in this game. Granted, those I believe are also pay ships as well. But where is the equity in that. A Fed wants a full carrier, he has to pay for it. A KDF wants one, he can either pay for it, or choose the Vo'Quv as his free ship at the appropriate level. But yet, the KDF wants more sci ships. Well, hell, they got one already, they're not happy with that? That's the EXACT situation the Feds are in with carriers. (And again, that's not even counting the Rihan). And I'm not going to count "half/flight-deck cruisers/escort carriers) as they're on more of an equal footing, I believe in numbers & availability.
But using the example above, I don't ever hear of Fed-primes saying Klin shouldn't get more sci ships. Hell, I think quite a few support it. Yet, anytime the subject of Feds getting more carriers comes up, just about every KDF-prime pulls out all the stops, on saying why the Feds shouldn't get any more, and some of them say they shouldn't have even gotten the Atrox either, and one of the biggest cries is "Uniqueness". Well, in this respect, I think uniqueness would still be preserved, between Fed and KDF, even if Feds get more true carrier options. KDF still have quite a few ships with cloak/battle-cloak, BoP's, (til recently) battlecruisers (and even with the Advent of the Avenger, which so far, from what I've seen, I'm not impressed with, and it's far down on my list of things to get), and this new "raider" bonus about to be applied (which I personally think is bs, but for game mechanic reasons, as it's hard to realistically get "bonus" damage for backstabbing a ship. That would be in the case of either shields down/weak shields a la Grissom getting blown away by an over-eager gunner on Kruge's BoP in ST III, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Also, currently, Klin have a much wider array of ways to gather dilithium, at least twice as many as the Feds. (and that's not even counting the carrier using slaver pets trick).
So in summation, as long as the KDF is willing to give up a little uniqueness (a la types of ships THEY have), to gain more variety of ships the Feds have (possibly their one & only unique point, prolific variety of ships, and having a goodly number of sci ships), then I could get behind this 100%. If they're not, then I say the KDF deserve few ships, and no more sci ships, period. If they want something, they should be prepared for the other factions to get something, that has been one of their unique points to date.
As far as bugs, I'm in-between on THAT one. Hell, I don't even know if Cryptic HAS the ability anymore, to fix some of those things. I mean, they SHOULD, but SHOULD doesn't always = DOES.:eek:
edit:
I forgot, on the sci ship, the KDF technically has another one, the Mirror Vo'Quv. It's slow, but it's got a hell of a lot of sci slots on the thing, hell, one of the things my KDF alien excels at, with this, is crowd control, AND tanking. Sure, frozen molasses going uphill goes faster than this thing, but you can pound on her all day long, and it's just not going to go down, and can do multiple holds on you, on top of that. Granted, it's not free (technically a lockbox ship), and it is one of the most expensive Mirror ships on the exchange last I checked, but it is a reasonably priced option for a KDF wanting a sci ship, so they have 2 (3 if you count Fleet Vo'Quv).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Well to be fair , two years between ships is a bit harsh ...
I imagine the outcry on the federation side of things would be exactly the same if the situation was reversed
No need to imagine. We saw that very behavior during the "drought" of content a year or so back.
Funny, over the years Ive seen many of fed posts saying we shouldnt get any Science ships at all based simply on the bias that we Klingons have no intellect for science in general.
Funny, over the years Ive seen many of fed posts saying we shouldnt get any Science ships at all based simply on the bias that we Klingons have no intellect for science in general.
Eh, that COULD be said, but it's a little too far off the track, and based on the books I've read (which are at best "soft" canon), while the Klin don't prize scientific knowledge anywhere near as much as martial prowess, technicians engineers, and the other "techie-types" CAN gain very high positions within the Klin world. They just have to fight harder to get it.
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game, even in the books. But an allied part of the KDF, wouldn't necessarily be hit by that restrictions. Granted, Gorn shouldn't be the source of a sci ship, hell, their philosophy is "If it's not working, hit it with a hammer. If it still doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway." Hardly a society that prizes scientific knowledge very highly. Nauusicaans, not sure about, know next to nothing about them, so can't say one way or the other. Orions now, they prize anything and everything. So THEY would be a good source, to provide the KDF with a new sci ship. Also, you could also say, Klin culture has moved forward a little, and since their war with the Feds have pretty much stalemated (something they barely will admit even in private, they want to boast they're winning), but they have seen the effectiveness of sci ships in combat, and wish to gain that capability for themselves.
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Another funny one. In the day of Kirk, Gorn where far scientificaly superior to Star Fleet. There is no reason to think they have backslid over the centuries.
Your fed bias is showing through like a green lit beacon when you talk of other races in STO not affiliated to the humans.
Another funny one. In the day of Kirk, Gorn where far scientificaly superior to Star Fleet. There is no reason to think they have backslid over the centuries.
Your fed bias is showing through like a green lit beacon when you talk of other races in STO not affiliated to the humans.
How were they scientifically superior? The one show I saw them in (TOS, btw), and every book I have read, as well as FASA's old RPG, all agreed that the Gorn were not scientifically minded, or that they prized it very much. Sure, some exceptional individuals existed, tis true, but as a race, they weren't. They prized military prowess (although defined slightly differently than how the Klin do so), much much more.
As far as accusing me of "specie-ism", that's just like playing the race card in real life. A bunch of bull.
Oh, and to reply to your accusations of trolling...hmmm, many's the thread where I've seen you degerate into active trolling, and you JUST done so here (actually, probably did so a while back), but hey, what do you expect with the call sign you've chosen. I've at least supplied my position, based upon what I have watched (of the shows & movies), and what I have read (of the novels, and an RPG game, that was licensed to be the Star Trek RPG for it's time)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Memory Alpha actually is quite clear that the Gorn where technologicaly on par with the Humans up until the 23rd century and even surpassed them in certain areas like shield technology and even the speed of their ships.
Your views of Gorn and even Klingons are very biased and short sighted. I have no doubts the Gorn fans who have more knowledge than us would have no issue proving you wrong.
As for the Klingons, Ive read the novels and the FASA books plus other media and while violent and brusque they are hardly lacking in the sciences or engineering fields.
As Kirk himself once said, " Barbarians do not have Star Empires"
So your angry tirade against the KDF in STo, while amusing to watch a fan fall to emotions, is notngoing to change my mind ormcause me to lose one bit of happiness over our recent attention from the Devs.
But please feel free to keep trolling. Its entertaining. Some of us are even making it into drinking game
Im always wondering if a Antiproton build using 4 FLEET DHCs, A CritH-CritD Torp, (1) KCB, (1) OD AP beam array and a rear Torp might work as well with a Tac Boff setup as so;
Ens- TT1
LTC- BO1 CRF1 TS3
Use the sam AtB setup and add the Voth +13.1% AP damage console. The BO1 becomes useful as the only Beam Array that can use it should be the Voth OD AP array. Making a no brainer.
Thoughts?
The Obelisk set is pretty nice, it beats out the buff a [AMP] core gives out at 3x 75+ power that it out DPSes it enough with 3x AP cannons and at least 1 AP turret to cover both a torp and the KCB not being buffed and come out ahead, so that's an excellent set. Though, it's narrow enough of a gap that if you could probably get ahead of it with [AMP] and another buffing set, like Romulan weapon/console set (Plasma), Jem'Hadar Mk XII(Polaron) or Elachi Lobi set(Disruptor).
The [Arc] AP Beam Array is compatible with BO, but I'm not sure how much spike you could get out of it. I suppose not wasting a slot and getting even a little more DPS out is worthwhile.
The Obelisk set is pretty nice, it beats out the buff a [AMP] core gives out at 3x 75+ power that it out DPSes it enough with 3x AP cannons and at least 1 AP turret to cover both a torp and the KCB not being buffed and come out ahead, so that's an excellent set. Though, it's narrow enough of a gap that if you could probably get ahead of it with [AMP] and another buffing set, like Romulan weapon/console set (Plasma), Jem'Hadar Mk XII(Polaron) or Elachi Lobi set(Disruptor).
The [Arc] AP Beam Array is compatible with BO, but I'm not sure how much spike you could get out of it. I suppose not wasting a slot and getting even a little more DPS out is worthwhile.
Two TT on a AtB build seemed silly but BO1 seemed easy since it will work on the OD AP array but not the KCB. Trying to maximize effeciency but those Ensign Tac choices can be tough.
Pretty much the only thing the feds have that's unique is the science ships so...
I wouldn't say that that's so anymore. While the Feds still have more to choose from, there are true KDF sci ships and quite a few hybrids that are science heavy.
We've got the Fleet Voq and soon the Kar'fi as Sci-heavy carriers, the Corsair and Kamarag as Sci-heavy (flight-deck) cruisers, 3 great Sci ships from the lockbox (Palisade, Weaver and Korath) and of course the Fleet Varanus.
The latter fulfills pretty much the role of the "traditional" Sci ships on Fed side, allowing for the same (or very similar) builds and performance as the DSSV, RSV or LRSV. Yet you don't see anyone flying it.
So the only thing really missing in the Sci department, would probably be a version of the Vesta...
I wouldn't say that that's so anymore. While the Feds still have more to choose from, there are true KDF sci ships and quite a few hybrids that are science heavy.
We've got the Fleet Voq and soon the Kar'fi as Sci-heavy carriers, the Corsair and Kamarag as Sci-heavy (flight-deck) cruisers, 3 great Sci ships from the lockbox (Palisade, Weaver and Korath) and of course the Fleet Varanus.
The latter fulfills pretty much the role of the "traditional" Sci ships on Fed side, allowing for the same (or very similar) builds and performance as the DSSV, RSV or LRSV. Yet you don't see anyone flying it.
So the only thing really missing in the Sci department, would probably be a version of the Vesta...
Roms are getting Vesta first with aux plasma cannons and battle cloak. Read it and weep.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Memory Alpha actually is quite clear that the Gorn where technologicaly on par with the Humans up until the 23rd century and even surpassed them in certain areas like shield technology and even the speed of their ships.
Your views of Gorn and even Klingons are very biased and short sighted. I have no doubts the Gorn fans who have more knowledge than us would have no issue proving you wrong.
As for the Klingons, Ive read the novels and the FASA books plus other media and while violent and brusque they are hardly lacking in the sciences or engineering fields.
As Kirk himself once said, " Barbarians do not have Star Empires"
So your angry tirade against the KDF in STo, while amusing to watch a fan fall to emotions, is notngoing to change my mind ormcause me to lose one bit of happiness over our recent attention from the Devs.
But please feel free to keep trolling. Its entertaining. Some of us are even making it into drinking game
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
Memory Alpha only includes canon information regarding the Gorn, and that's fairly little. Even then, it states in the physical characteristics section that the Gorn are at least on par with humans in regards to intelligence. It also gives lie to your statement that Gorn are unintelligent, non-science appreciating brutes that simply hit machinery to try getting it to work.
Most of that comes from novels, and I would suggest not giving the references to video games much credence as video games are even more apocryphal than novels and often don't bother with continuity. About the Gorn specifically, they seem to be made up of different castes, including a 'soldier' caste that probably *would* behave as you describe. But they're not intended to be the scientists or engineers, and using them to gauge all Gorn would be like taking a MACO and using the MACO to define all of the Federation.
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
No no no, he's a Federation fanboy, and doesn't argue for stripping the Federation of what edges it has. That would mean eliminating all but one escort type, and making THAT escort merely average in performance. Can you imagine the amount of Federation butthurt that would come from that?
Maybe then they'd have a taste of what it's like trying to work without a solid science ship line and a sub-par escort line, supplemented by 'raiders' that can be destroyed by a strong sneeze.
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
Well Gorn ARE the sci backbone of the KDF presently in the STO universe.
They can arguably still be considered atleast on par with Federation if not more considering the fact that Gorn had achieved interstellar propulsion technology as early as 500,000 BC!! (TOS comic: "Dying of the Light") and were shown to have faster ships with very good shields that could take multiple photon torpedo hits. Their sensor tech was inferior to Fed ones though (TOS "Arena"). So in a way you could say the Gorn were better at offensive sciences while fed was better at life/non-offensive sciences.
But you know what the kicker is, pre-STO, the Gorn were actually sorta allied with the Feds!
Also If the Arena episode was not the first contact with Gorn, we would have actually seen Gorn instead of the Andorians in the Enterprise episode "The Andorian Incident". That would have been awesome! But unfortunately it didnt happen as it would break continuity
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
Eh, that COULD be said, but it's a little too far off the track, and based on the books I've read (which are at best "soft" canon), while the Klin don't prize scientific knowledge anywhere near as much as martial prowess, technicians engineers, and the other "techie-types" CAN gain very high positions within the Klin world. They just have to fight harder to get it.
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game, even in the books. But an allied part of the KDF, wouldn't necessarily be hit by that restrictions. Granted, Gorn shouldn't be the source of a sci ship, hell, their philosophy is "If it's not working, hit it with a hammer. If it still doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway." Hardly a society that prizes scientific knowledge very highly. Nauusicaans, not sure about, know next to nothing about them, so can't say one way or the other. Orions now, they prize anything and everything. So THEY would be a good source, to provide the KDF with a new sci ship. Also, you could also say, Klin culture has moved forward a little, and since their war with the Feds have pretty much stalemated (something they barely will admit even in private, they want to boast they're winning), but they have seen the effectiveness of sci ships in combat, and wish to gain that capability for themselves.
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
The big question is what you define as a "true science ship".
Because "science" does not actually mean "peaceful exploration".
We've seen this in the "Enterprise" era Raptor, which was first and foremost a scout.
The recent "Hayne's Owner's Workshop Manual" explains that unlike the Birds of Prey of its era it was less heavily armed and crewed and used as a long-range ship to gather intelligence on other races.
Personally I'd have preferred them in such a role in STO as well, since the Raptors in this game are based on the Raptor from the shows.
RL scouts are ships that gather intelligence on the other side and also provide electronic warfare support in combat.
And contrary to popular belief those don't exist exclusively as converted travlers like "The Hunt for Red October" but they also exist as ships pupose-built for militaries, which are not exactly known to do scientifice exploration.
Interestingly enough soft-canon materials specifically do give the Klingons a ship for scientific purposes. In the FASA materials they have the D-9 for example.
Another recent example from the world of soft-canon that is not totally outdated and faulty (as in not even the timeline fits) like the FASA material is the Qang (Chancellor) class from the recent IKS Gorkon novel series.
The ship class is essentially an enlarged Vor'cha with a reduced armament (12 instead of 18 disrutors) and the most advanced sensors the Klingons have at the time.
The Gorkon and her crew beat the Enterprise-E and Data at analysing and devising a countermeasure for a telepathic energy wave in "The Brave and the Bold", a novel two-parter where the two ships team up as equal partners.
The 12 ships of that class are sent after at the end of the Dominion War (they were not finished in time to participate) on a mission of exploration.
They map stars and worlds to colonize, exploit and and conquer.
Which also begs the question: if the Klingons supposedly never had ships for such a purpose, how did they found colonies, find exploitable resources and build an Empire?
Stumbling blindly into space and hoping to find worlds to settle and asteroids and nebulae to use for raw materials is dangerous, stupid and (given the odds) also futile.
There's also a Klingon saying "A sharp knife is nothing without a sharp eye."[DS9:"Blood Oath"] so not having ships with good eyes (=sensors) goes against their own philosophy.
As far as the Gorn a concerned, I've got the materials from FASA and from ADB and I've yet to find anything remotely resembling your "hit it with a hammer" approach in any of them. Can you provide a source that goes beyond "it's in there"?
On the contrary in canon Trek they were advanced enough to remotely turn Spock's tricorder into a bomb within a matter of minutes while staying out of sight.
Even Spock called it "very ingenious".
Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
Well, as much as I love and enjoy ST novels myself, I'm sorry to inform you that all of your "sources" mentioned here are actually duds. Not a single one of these is, nor can be treated as canon - therefore making the information within them irrelevant.
That said, can we now please stop the pissing contest here and earlynighthawk - can you please stop trying to deter the point of the thread and get back on the Mogh class battlecruiser and the topic the OP had in mind - the assumed need for purchases that would encourage more KDF ship releases in the future?
Comments
Well, if we had "unique" stuff, that was extremely powerful, I wouldn't. I might WISH there were more stuff, coming out more often, but I wouldn't be unhappy, or actively mad, if it didn't Sheesh. And if a faction shares a piece of equipment, I might be PERSONALLY like, it sucks, but publicly I'd be like, "Eh, I just don't plan on using it. I wouldn't be screaming "Oh that's not fair", over & over.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
It is my personal opinion that the KDF ( and by extension Romulan ) fleets should have just as much diversity in ships as the Federation currently does, not everyone may agree , but that's the great thing about opinions , you don't have to.
Rear Admiral , Engineering Division
U.S.S. Sheffield N.C.C. 92016
Pretty sure KDF got screwed because Feds got what little we had on top of everything else. I would expect Klingons to have better battle consoles because that is what the faction is about. You've kept your much better science edge but took our combat edge(battle cruisers, carriers, combat consoles).
Your post proves my point. Even with all the dev attention Feds get they still cried for the few things that the kdf had. It's like a rich guy robbing a poor man.
It is a reference to letting trolls out of the dungeons to rant in this thread. I should think in this gaming community that reference would be obvious to the most casual observer given the Fed whiner fan boy nature of your self entitlement post.
This thread is about encouraging those who play KDF to support buying a ship in hope that making this one profitable. The Bortasqu was a failed venture and some devs have stated the reason more isn't done for KDF is lack of sales. You then come in with a rant against KDF parity when you could have just kept your bias to yourself.
This thread was positive until your post. Your post is just as self entitled as what you over broadly paint the KDF community as when each and every one of us regardless of preferred faction should be standing up for parity for everyone's gaming experience.
I do not say this to offend you, but A little humility and charity on you part would be helpful.
Clear enough now?
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
I don't know if you're faction-neutral, or have a faction specific bias. Can't tell from the flavour of the posts you're making, that I've seen. What I CAN tell, is that you're at least seeming to try to keep things reasonable, and have a discussion, not crying about stuff.
In response to your last post though, I could agree with that. But the Feds (and even the Rihan), in the areas THEY are weak in, should be able to have more variety as well.
Example: Carriers. KDF, as far as I know, the Vo'Quv is a free ship. The Caitian Atrox is a pay ship. (And I don't think the Rihan get a faction specific carrier as of yet). ANd the two I listed are the only two main carriers (aside from fleet & mirror versions, as applicable) ie, having 2 hangar slots, that I know of in common use. But I believe there is another 1-2 KDF full carriers in this game. Granted, those I believe are also pay ships as well. But where is the equity in that. A Fed wants a full carrier, he has to pay for it. A KDF wants one, he can either pay for it, or choose the Vo'Quv as his free ship at the appropriate level. But yet, the KDF wants more sci ships. Well, hell, they got one already, they're not happy with that? That's the EXACT situation the Feds are in with carriers. (And again, that's not even counting the Rihan). And I'm not going to count "half/flight-deck cruisers/escort carriers) as they're on more of an equal footing, I believe in numbers & availability.
But using the example above, I don't ever hear of Fed-primes saying Klin shouldn't get more sci ships. Hell, I think quite a few support it. Yet, anytime the subject of Feds getting more carriers comes up, just about every KDF-prime pulls out all the stops, on saying why the Feds shouldn't get any more, and some of them say they shouldn't have even gotten the Atrox either, and one of the biggest cries is "Uniqueness". Well, in this respect, I think uniqueness would still be preserved, between Fed and KDF, even if Feds get more true carrier options. KDF still have quite a few ships with cloak/battle-cloak, BoP's, (til recently) battlecruisers (and even with the Advent of the Avenger, which so far, from what I've seen, I'm not impressed with, and it's far down on my list of things to get), and this new "raider" bonus about to be applied (which I personally think is bs, but for game mechanic reasons, as it's hard to realistically get "bonus" damage for backstabbing a ship. That would be in the case of either shields down/weak shields a la Grissom getting blown away by an over-eager gunner on Kruge's BoP in ST III, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Also, currently, Klin have a much wider array of ways to gather dilithium, at least twice as many as the Feds. (and that's not even counting the carrier using slaver pets trick).
So in summation, as long as the KDF is willing to give up a little uniqueness (a la types of ships THEY have), to gain more variety of ships the Feds have (possibly their one & only unique point, prolific variety of ships, and having a goodly number of sci ships), then I could get behind this 100%. If they're not, then I say the KDF deserve few ships, and no more sci ships, period. If they want something, they should be prepared for the other factions to get something, that has been one of their unique points to date.
As far as bugs, I'm in-between on THAT one. Hell, I don't even know if Cryptic HAS the ability anymore, to fix some of those things. I mean, they SHOULD, but SHOULD doesn't always = DOES.:eek:
edit:
I forgot, on the sci ship, the KDF technically has another one, the Mirror Vo'Quv. It's slow, but it's got a hell of a lot of sci slots on the thing, hell, one of the things my KDF alien excels at, with this, is crowd control, AND tanking. Sure, frozen molasses going uphill goes faster than this thing, but you can pound on her all day long, and it's just not going to go down, and can do multiple holds on you, on top of that. Granted, it's not free (technically a lockbox ship), and it is one of the most expensive Mirror ships on the exchange last I checked, but it is a reasonably priced option for a KDF wanting a sci ship, so they have 2 (3 if you count Fleet Vo'Quv).
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
No need to imagine. We saw that very behavior during the "drought" of content a year or so back.
R.I.P
R.I.P
I cant wait for the weekend to buy this beast.
R.I.P
Eh, that COULD be said, but it's a little too far off the track, and based on the books I've read (which are at best "soft" canon), while the Klin don't prize scientific knowledge anywhere near as much as martial prowess, technicians engineers, and the other "techie-types" CAN gain very high positions within the Klin world. They just have to fight harder to get it.
But as far as "True" Klin sci ships, yeah, that I would argue against, as it's pretty rare for them to use stuff, that's "sci skills" in this game, even in the books. But an allied part of the KDF, wouldn't necessarily be hit by that restrictions. Granted, Gorn shouldn't be the source of a sci ship, hell, their philosophy is "If it's not working, hit it with a hammer. If it still doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway." Hardly a society that prizes scientific knowledge very highly. Nauusicaans, not sure about, know next to nothing about them, so can't say one way or the other. Orions now, they prize anything and everything. So THEY would be a good source, to provide the KDF with a new sci ship. Also, you could also say, Klin culture has moved forward a little, and since their war with the Feds have pretty much stalemated (something they barely will admit even in private, they want to boast they're winning), but they have seen the effectiveness of sci ships in combat, and wish to gain that capability for themselves.
My arguments against STO KDF gaining more sci ships, are purly what I have stated in my previous post.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Your fed bias is showing through like a green lit beacon when you talk of other races in STO not affiliated to the humans.
R.I.P
We get a new ship this week!
R.I.P
How were they scientifically superior? The one show I saw them in (TOS, btw), and every book I have read, as well as FASA's old RPG, all agreed that the Gorn were not scientifically minded, or that they prized it very much. Sure, some exceptional individuals existed, tis true, but as a race, they weren't. They prized military prowess (although defined slightly differently than how the Klin do so), much much more.
As far as accusing me of "specie-ism", that's just like playing the race card in real life. A bunch of bull.
Oh, and to reply to your accusations of trolling...hmmm, many's the thread where I've seen you degerate into active trolling, and you JUST done so here (actually, probably did so a while back), but hey, what do you expect with the call sign you've chosen. I've at least supplied my position, based upon what I have watched (of the shows & movies), and what I have read (of the novels, and an RPG game, that was licensed to be the Star Trek RPG for it's time)
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Your views of Gorn and even Klingons are very biased and short sighted. I have no doubts the Gorn fans who have more knowledge than us would have no issue proving you wrong.
As for the Klingons, Ive read the novels and the FASA books plus other media and while violent and brusque they are hardly lacking in the sciences or engineering fields.
As Kirk himself once said, " Barbarians do not have Star Empires"
So your angry tirade against the KDF in STo, while amusing to watch a fan fall to emotions, is notngoing to change my mind ormcause me to lose one bit of happiness over our recent attention from the Devs.
But please feel free to keep trolling. Its entertaining. Some of us are even making it into drinking game
R.I.P
The Obelisk set is pretty nice, it beats out the buff a [AMP] core gives out at 3x 75+ power that it out DPSes it enough with 3x AP cannons and at least 1 AP turret to cover both a torp and the KCB not being buffed and come out ahead, so that's an excellent set. Though, it's narrow enough of a gap that if you could probably get ahead of it with [AMP] and another buffing set, like Romulan weapon/console set (Plasma), Jem'Hadar Mk XII(Polaron) or Elachi Lobi set(Disruptor).
The [Arc] AP Beam Array is compatible with BO, but I'm not sure how much spike you could get out of it. I suppose not wasting a slot and getting even a little more DPS out is worthwhile.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Is it Thursday yet???
plus a Cstore Albino Boff that comes with Aux to SIF3.......
KDF and Roms cant buy one of those.
R.I.P
Two TT on a AtB build seemed silly but BO1 seemed easy since it will work on the OD AP array but not the KCB. Trying to maximize effeciency but those Ensign Tac choices can be tough.
R.I.P
I wouldn't say that that's so anymore. While the Feds still have more to choose from, there are true KDF sci ships and quite a few hybrids that are science heavy.
We've got the Fleet Voq and soon the Kar'fi as Sci-heavy carriers, the Corsair and Kamarag as Sci-heavy (flight-deck) cruisers, 3 great Sci ships from the lockbox (Palisade, Weaver and Korath) and of course the Fleet Varanus.
The latter fulfills pretty much the role of the "traditional" Sci ships on Fed side, allowing for the same (or very similar) builds and performance as the DSSV, RSV or LRSV. Yet you don't see anyone flying it.
So the only thing really missing in the Sci department, would probably be a version of the Vesta...
Roms are getting Vesta first with aux plasma cannons and battle cloak. Read it and weep.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Reallu? when would one drink? And I never said the Klin were necessarily lacking particular things, although, at least in TOS era, they were behind in bio-sciences, and medical technology (gtanted, not ship-related). And if you can pull out a Gorn-fan, who has actual source material to toss my way, I would be more than happy to peruse it. But as far as my views being, biased & shortsighted? Hardly, I have extensively read the TOS era novels, a few set in TNG time frame (not many though), and even though I've lost (or had stolen, depending on which particular book or boxed set it happened to be), my old FASA RPG, luckily, I've found most of them online, and have managed to download pdf versions of them.
And by the way, I'm beginning to think the first one to call troll, is sort of like the first one to call TRIBBLE in an internet argument.......
At least I'm willing to share my views, and come up with ideas. All you do, is insult over & over again. No longer worthy of my time, read my sig.:D
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
So you should argue against Feds getting warships on the same grounds. A carrier is a "true" warship, and starfleet is adamently a non-military organization. It makes less sense for starfleet to build warships than it does for Klingons to have science ships.
Regarding your ignorant statements about the Gorn: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gorn
Memory Alpha only includes canon information regarding the Gorn, and that's fairly little. Even then, it states in the physical characteristics section that the Gorn are at least on par with humans in regards to intelligence. It also gives lie to your statement that Gorn are unintelligent, non-science appreciating brutes that simply hit machinery to try getting it to work.
As for non-canon: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Gorn
Most of that comes from novels, and I would suggest not giving the references to video games much credence as video games are even more apocryphal than novels and often don't bother with continuity. About the Gorn specifically, they seem to be made up of different castes, including a 'soldier' caste that probably *would* behave as you describe. But they're not intended to be the scientists or engineers, and using them to gauge all Gorn would be like taking a MACO and using the MACO to define all of the Federation.
No no no, he's a Federation fanboy, and doesn't argue for stripping the Federation of what edges it has. That would mean eliminating all but one escort type, and making THAT escort merely average in performance. Can you imagine the amount of Federation butthurt that would come from that?
Maybe then they'd have a taste of what it's like trying to work without a solid science ship line and a sub-par escort line, supplemented by 'raiders' that can be destroyed by a strong sneeze.
They can arguably still be considered atleast on par with Federation if not more considering the fact that Gorn had achieved interstellar propulsion technology as early as 500,000 BC!! (TOS comic: "Dying of the Light") and were shown to have faster ships with very good shields that could take multiple photon torpedo hits. Their sensor tech was inferior to Fed ones though (TOS "Arena"). So in a way you could say the Gorn were better at offensive sciences while fed was better at life/non-offensive sciences.
But you know what the kicker is, pre-STO, the Gorn were actually sorta allied with the Feds!
Also If the Arena episode was not the first contact with Gorn, we would have actually seen Gorn instead of the Andorians in the Enterprise episode "The Andorian Incident". That would have been awesome! But unfortunately it didnt happen as it would break continuity
We still live!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaa! We live and we will conquer!!!!! Hahahahahaaha!
-Roach, when asked about Klingon extinction!
The big question is what you define as a "true science ship".
Because "science" does not actually mean "peaceful exploration".
We've seen this in the "Enterprise" era Raptor, which was first and foremost a scout.
The recent "Hayne's Owner's Workshop Manual" explains that unlike the Birds of Prey of its era it was less heavily armed and crewed and used as a long-range ship to gather intelligence on other races.
Personally I'd have preferred them in such a role in STO as well, since the Raptors in this game are based on the Raptor from the shows.
RL scouts are ships that gather intelligence on the other side and also provide electronic warfare support in combat.
And contrary to popular belief those don't exist exclusively as converted travlers like "The Hunt for Red October" but they also exist as ships pupose-built for militaries, which are not exactly known to do scientifice exploration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balzam_class_intelligence_ship
Interestingly enough soft-canon materials specifically do give the Klingons a ship for scientific purposes. In the FASA materials they have the D-9 for example.
Another recent example from the world of soft-canon that is not totally outdated and faulty (as in not even the timeline fits) like the FASA material is the Qang (Chancellor) class from the recent IKS Gorkon novel series.
The ship class is essentially an enlarged Vor'cha with a reduced armament (12 instead of 18 disrutors) and the most advanced sensors the Klingons have at the time.
The Gorkon and her crew beat the Enterprise-E and Data at analysing and devising a countermeasure for a telepathic energy wave in "The Brave and the Bold", a novel two-parter where the two ships team up as equal partners.
The 12 ships of that class are sent after at the end of the Dominion War (they were not finished in time to participate) on a mission of exploration.
They map stars and worlds to colonize, exploit and and conquer.
Which also begs the question: if the Klingons supposedly never had ships for such a purpose, how did they found colonies, find exploitable resources and build an Empire?
Stumbling blindly into space and hoping to find worlds to settle and asteroids and nebulae to use for raw materials is dangerous, stupid and (given the odds) also futile.
There's also a Klingon saying "A sharp knife is nothing without a sharp eye."[DS9:"Blood Oath"] so not having ships with good eyes (=sensors) goes against their own philosophy.
As far as the Gorn a concerned, I've got the materials from FASA and from ADB and I've yet to find anything remotely resembling your "hit it with a hammer" approach in any of them. Can you provide a source that goes beyond "it's in there"?
On the contrary in canon Trek they were advanced enough to remotely turn Spock's tricorder into a bomb within a matter of minutes while staying out of sight.
Even Spock called it "very ingenious".
Well, as much as I love and enjoy ST novels myself, I'm sorry to inform you that all of your "sources" mentioned here are actually duds. Not a single one of these is, nor can be treated as canon - therefore making the information within them irrelevant.
That said, can we now please stop the pissing contest here and earlynighthawk - can you please stop trying to deter the point of the thread and get back on the Mogh class battlecruiser and the topic the OP had in mind - the assumed need for purchases that would encourage more KDF ship releases in the future?